[HN Gopher] China Bans Flightradar24
___________________________________________________________________
China Bans Flightradar24
Author : imartin2k
Score : 226 points
Date : 2021-11-08 16:27 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (theprint.in)
(TXT) w3m dump (theprint.in)
| novok wrote:
| The Chinese government probably wants a local only edition of
| this that they can control better, in typical China fashion.
| jaywalk wrote:
| > CCTV reported that Beijing Municipal National Security Bureau
| found data-sharing poses a security threat to military aircraft.
|
| FlightRadar24 (and indeed any flight "radar" that consumers have
| access to) relies on ADS-B data, which is transmitted by the
| planes themselves. Any sensitive military aircraft would (should)
| not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these
| services.
| xyzzy21 wrote:
| The US DOD uses a different system specifically for this
| reason!
| rjsw wrote:
| Sometimes it leaves ADS-B enabled to send a message. During
| the evacuation of Afghanistan there were B-52s over Kabul
| that could be tracked on Flightradar24.
| jjwiseman wrote:
| Not to mention the Mi-17 (with possible CIA links) used in
| evacuating the "Salt Pit" black site:
| https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620
| dym_sh wrote:
| unless army planes go undercover and need to transmit that data
| to keep disguise of a regular civil aircrafts
| queuebert wrote:
| Does this happen?
| _joel wrote:
| I'd assume so, even in shipping, NASA recently disguised
| the James Webb shipment to French Guiana as a commercial
| vessel and set it's arrival destination somewhere in
| europe. So it's highly likely this happens in military
| context with flights too.
| Kye wrote:
| A plane that's obviously not what it claims to be to
| experienced observers will only make people more curious.
|
| edit: for example
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224
|
| It would be just another government plane, but they went and
| made it interesting.
| jjwiseman wrote:
| There is at least one U.S. Marshals aircraft that seems to
| intentionally broadcast a deceptive transponder ID. See https
| ://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/145598271548065382...
| and https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/141546213651227
| 852...
| celticninja wrote:
| Yes but it does allow people to track the private jets flown by
| the Chinese government.
| notahacker wrote:
| The irony is Flightradar24 accepts requests not to display
| sensitive aircraft and some of the other ADS-B aggregators
| don't...
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| But isn't telling a foreign entity "Hey, please censor
| information of these planes" almost equal to telling the
| jurisdiction of that entity "Hey, do you want a list of our
| planes you should pay attention to?".
|
| The Chinese government is involved with the big companies
| there, so they must assume the same is true for the US
| government and companies...
| notahacker wrote:
| Not really. They don't have to state that they're the
| Chinese government when requesting the data is removed,
| and I'm sure some of the aircraft already not displayed
| are very boring aircraft with very boring owners.
|
| It's not like the US government doesn't know where these
| aircraft are already and have an abundance of ways to
| identify whether they're "of interest" or not
| fortuna86 wrote:
| Bingo.
| jjwiseman wrote:
| There can be a bit more nuance to it than that. FlightRadar24
| and other tracking sites do use ADS-B data broadcast by
| aircraft themselves, but they also use other information. There
| are other ways that aircraft that aren't broadcasting ADS-B can
| still show up on a map.
|
| 1. Mode S: Even if an aircraft isn't broadcasting its own
| position via ADS-B, if it's using Mode S its position can be
| multilaterated if you have a cooperating network of receivers
| (which is what FR24, ADS-B Exchange, etc. have).
|
| 2. TIS-B: An aircraft could be using Mode A/C, which generally
| can't even be multilaterated, or it could have its transponder
| turned off entirely and ATC can still use primary radar returns
| to broadcast a synthetic ADS-B-type target for safety, so that
| other nearby aircraft will see it show up on their traffic
| displays. The data won't tell you what aircraft it is, but you
| know where it is. And in fact, it's frequently possible for
| experienced observers to figure out what kind of aircraft it is
| and who's flying it based just on its track, speed, and
| altitude. I frequently see contacts on ADS-B Exchange in the
| Los Angeles area that are obviously fighters flying without
| ADS-B or Mode S, showing up as TIS-B.
|
| Military aircraft on sensitive operations can turn off their
| transponders, and I don't know if China uses TIS-B, but I just
| wanted to clarify that there is data besides ADS-B that gets
| used, and that a network of receivers has capabilities that a
| single receiver doesn't.
| jjwiseman wrote:
| Kinda relevant: Here's a thread about a group of aircraft
| flying in the U.S. that were trying to hide their identities
| by using the FAA's "Privacy ICAO Address" (PIA) program.
| Under the PIA program, aircraft can broadcast ADS-B but they
| don't use their real registration info, so theoretically
| you're not supposed to be able to tie the aircraft to a
| person or company:
| https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1456377882582798338
|
| But because it's still relatively rare for aircraft to use
| PIA, and even more rare for a group of several aircraft to
| use PIA and take off from the same airport and fly together,
| they attracted the attention of a few people on twitter who
| suddenly got very interested in these aircraft and who was
| flying them. People quickly figured out where the aircraft
| where flying to, and realized that airport had a public
| webcam. As the jets landed, people confirmed the tail numbers
| of these aircraft that were trying to fly under the radar, so
| to speak.
|
| The thread ends with the identity of the aircraft and their
| owner having been discovered, some hypotheses about the
| reason for the flight, figuring out which resort the
| passengers were staying at, and... the airport having
| apparently seen what was happening on twitter and sending
| someone out to put a plastic bag or something over the webcam
| to block everyone's view.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >put a plastic bag or something over the webcam
|
| Kind of a 'closing the barn door after' kind of thing yeah?
| Might. Would have been better OpSec to leave it running
| until the _next_ event. Then turn it off prior.
| easton wrote:
| It seems like the money and time it would take to set that
| up would be way more than just buying everyone tickets on a
| commercial plane for that flight.
| jfrunyon wrote:
| Of course flying on a commercial plane would be cheaper.
| They aren't flying on private jets because it's cheaper,
| they do it because their shareholders are the ones paying
| for it and they don't want to sit next to a plebe.
| dylan604 wrote:
| and the hassle of dealing with the public in an airport
| vs rolling right up to the private plane, getting on,
| taking off. The only thing easier is POTUS on Air Force
| One
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Iridium also has ADS-B receivers onboard the latest
| satellites going up to enable global coverage, although I
| don't have context as to data access and pricing.
|
| https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-
| ads...
| papercrane wrote:
| You can buy access to the data from FlightAware. I've never
| been in a position to see the pricing, though I'm sure it's
| expensive.
| sorenjan wrote:
| They're visible on Flightradar24. Look at the north
| Atlantic, there's usually several of them at any time. The
| satellite sourced data uses blue icons on the map.
| wiedehopf wrote:
| That's not Aireon data but rather ADS-C which is just
| Iridium data link as far as i know.
| andrepew wrote:
| I believe for the satellites to pick you up you need ADS-B
| antenna diversity (an antenna on the top and bottom of the
| plane) which I don't believe is very common yet because it
| has cost.
| brian_herman wrote:
| At least I can still see flightradar still in china.
| jMyles wrote:
| > Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be
| transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these
| services.
|
| In addition to jjwiseman's comment that Mode S tracking and
| TIS-B are still widely useful (something you can easily see for
| yourself in many parts of the world, including around the 305th
| Bomb Wing in Tampa (near my recent home of St. Pete), which are
| a joy and marvel to watch), I want to add one more comment:
|
| I don't think it's reasonable to take as granted that any
| particular party (especially those which are taxpayer-funded )
| "should" refrain from transmitting surveillance and telemetry
| data. Rather, I hope we develop a society in which anybody who
| is flying a large, fast, dangerous piece of metal through the
| sky is required to report, via such an open standard, these
| details for all to see.
| bondolo wrote:
| "a citizen with the surname Li had signed up"
|
| Well that certainly narrows it down.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| Unless I misunderstand, I don't see the point: you can get this
| data with a RaspberryPi and an antenna available everywhere (and
| probably built in China).
|
| Military aircraft that shouldn't be seen should just disable data
| transmission.
| blamazon wrote:
| If I was a vendor in Shenzhen selling SDR modules to the
| public, and I saw this come across the propaganda wire, I would
| think hard about if it is still worth it to keep selling the
| modules to Chinese customers.
|
| China knows that direct control is hard to achieve at scale.
| They know they can simply state their intentions and let the
| chilling effects take over. Banning Flightradar24 is a
| statement of intention that every one of their citizens can
| see.
| mianos wrote:
| Any Realtek TV tuner USB stick can be used. They are for sale
| everywhere in China.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| My question is what does it accomplishes for China? Foreign
| armies and terrorists can still get plane positions, only
| average citizen can't. What's the point?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| > Unless I misunderstand, I don't see the point: you can get
| this data with a RaspberryPi and an antenna available
| everywhere (and probably built in China).
|
| I'm not sure about the relevant Chinese radio interception
| laws, but I think the difference between DIY receivers and
| Flightradar24 is that the website combines data from a great
| many listening stations across the world. You'd need one hell
| of an antenna to receive location data from a Chinese plane
| from all the way over in the EU or US, but these websites still
| allow us to see flight patterns above China.
|
| > Military aircraft that shouldn't be seen should just disable
| data transmission.
|
| Permanently disabling ADS-B on military aircraft sounds like a
| recipe for disaster.
| vdqtp3 wrote:
| It's literally flipping a switch.
| tzs wrote:
| OT: anyone happen to know what it means on FlightAware when a
| plane is colored red?
|
| I open FA when I hear a low jet, and recently I noticed that some
| of them were red. The red ones were always NetJets Aviation
| flights. Zooming out, I could see that there were red ones
| scattered all around the US, and they all seemed to be NetJets
| Aviation.
|
| This lasted for at least a few days, but lately NetJets Aviation
| flights have shown up in the same yellow as everyone else, and
| now zooming I out I don't see any colored red.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| The FAQ [0] says: What do the color-coded
| airport marker dots indicate? The color dots
| represent the flight conditions at a particular airport from
| the METAR (aviation weather report) when such data is
| available: Purple: LIFR Red:
| IFR Blue: MVFR Green: VFR
|
| I think that implies that planes get colored based on their
| flight modes as well?
|
| [0]: https://uk.flightaware.com/about/faq#metarcolors
| imadethis wrote:
| Pretty much 100% of all passenger/cargo jets will be flying
| under IFR rules, so that wouldn't be the reason unless most
| planes are red.
| RattleyCooper wrote:
| It's not worrying at all, that China acts like everyone who isn't
| Chinese is out to get them or undermine them /s
|
| Nobody who's done anything shady has ever acted like that in the
| history of the world /s
| speakspokespok wrote:
| Speaking for the USA, the ADS-B data stream you see on
| FlightAware's commercial feeds has military and police aircraft
| data filtered, even if those aircraft are broadcasting that
| information. While ADS-B data reception is public, certain data
| types must be removed in your commercial offering per FAA.
|
| Near me in Puget Sound / Seattle are two intl airports, several
| military bases including a nuclear sub base, plus we're near the
| US / Canadian border. Air traffic as you can imagine is very
| interesting and includes state police Cessna's at night cruising
| for people speeding on Highway 18, military transport through
| JBLM (military base) but no fighter jet ADS-B. There's commercial
| air traffic, hobby planes, private jets, hospital and news
| helicopters. There's flight paths and local flight patterns. My
| current mystery are the small, black, unmarked DHS (I think!)
| helicopters that cruise Discovery Park lighthouse every few
| hours. They don't show up on ADS-B at all. There's more but you
| get the idea of how cool this all is. SDR is just wild. All you
| need is a Pi 3 and the PiAware image, the antenna and the 1050
| filter they suggest. PiAware has a local webinterface that shows
| everything it's picking up but will be filtered later by
| FlightAware.
| DarmokJalad1701 wrote:
| > Speaking for the USA, the ADS-B data stream you see on
| FlightAware's commercial feeds has military and police aircraft
| data filtered, even if those aircraft are broadcasting that
| information
|
| I have seen military aircraft on FlightAware before. This one
| for example: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SIKES85/
|
| It was a pair of KC-46s practicing in-air re-fueling and were
| actually visible from the ground.
|
| Some other examples:
| https://flightaware.com/live/flight/NITRO72/
|
| https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BISON2/
|
| Pretty sure these are fighter jets given the speed at which
| they are maneuvering:
|
| https://flightaware.com/live/flight/COBRA66/history/20211108...
|
| https://flightaware.com/live/flight/COBRA44/history/20211108...
|
| https://flightaware.com/live/flight/COBRA52/history/20211108...
|
| You can basically check the flightaware pages for Air Force
| bases and find these.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Not sure about those last three being fighters. One of them
| was going fast enough to be plausible, but the other two
| spent the flight in the 200-300 mph range. That's not much
| above stall speed for an F-16 or F-22, for example.
| DarmokJalad1701 wrote:
| Agreed that COBRA66 and COBRA52 seem to be pretty slow for
| a fighter jet even though they were still flying loops at
| over 150 kts in one case. COBRA44 though seems to be in
| about the correct range.
| jjwiseman wrote:
| COBRA44 is a T-38 (trainer used to train fighter pilots):
| https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae00d6
|
| COBRA51 and COBRA66 are thought to be Beech C-12C Hurons:
| https://twitter.com/SkyCirclesR2508/status/14577732869353
| 062... https://twitter.com/SkyCirclesR2508/status/1457792
| 6990423859...
| YeBanKo wrote:
| > certain data types must be removed in your commercial
| offering per FAA.
|
| Can you link to source if it? Afaik everything transmitted by
| ADS-B is public including military and le. FAA allows mil or le
| to turn off ADS-B out if it can compromise their mission [1].
|
| [1] https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/07/23/new-rule-allows-
| mil...
| andylynch wrote:
| Have you tried ADS-B Exchange? They don't use FAA data or apply
| their filters.
| matthewmcg wrote:
| Unfiltered cooperatives like adsbexchange.com are also good
| ways to see what's up there that might be filtered on FR24 or
| FlightAware.
| bokohut wrote:
| This, TLDR other comments. Others do filter data and the
| proof is in comparing in real-time all the sites along with
| actually seeing the vehicle and its location in the sky as
| some data can be delayed.
|
| I do not claim to be a plane spotter but given where I live I
| have picked up interest in the last several years after U.S.
| president 45 was elected and even more now with 46. 46 goes
| home nearly every weekend and the FAA flight restriction
| circumference borders right over my house. I also have the
| locational benefit of being inline with the flight path and
| approach for Air Force N for 46s comings and goings by plane
| which I have seen multiple times and I did see 45s helicopter
| once flying over enroute to NYC.
|
| Others may not be aware that there is the active deployment
| of fighter jets and air refueling tankers that support this
| FAA VIP air restriction. Since 46 has been elected and nearly
| every weekend he is home we experience non stop fighter jet
| thrust rumble at our location. One will not find these jets
| on any public data plane location stream yet the persistent
| presence of the air refueling tankers and the rumble from
| jets burning fuel on the ready makes it obvious of the jets
| presence for those in the know. Given the proximity to major
| airports the air refueling tanker is listed on adsbexchange
| and fly's in circles sun up to sun down topping off those
| jets.
|
| A few Sundays back we had pristine clear skys for both PV
| collection as well as noob plane spotting. Using binoculars
| on a tripod and sky scanning based on the tankers locations I
| believe I saw the back side of a F22 coming in to top off. I
| did get a picture about an hour later of an unknown jet type
| refueling off the air tanker after months of trying, I just
| smiled.
|
| As to the point of this "China" ban I personally know the
| value of such data in my own accomplishments as I see it akin
| to social engineering. Granted it is not war time so the
| tanker is broadcasting but I find it an oversight by those in
| charge to advertise where mother goose is as the goslings are
| never far behind.
| C19is20 wrote:
| Cessna's looking for speeders. I wonder what the ROI on that
| is: I'm guessing that's not all they do.
| kortilla wrote:
| What's the ROI on responding to domestic disturbances in low
| income neighborhoods?
|
| What a silly way to look at safety money.
| ev1 wrote:
| That depends on how much you think a human life is worth,
| disappointingly.
| robocat wrote:
| I would like to see some numbers for implied value of
| life by some of the decisions we make (driving at speed,
| extreme sports, anything fun but risky), especially the
| implied value for yourself versus others like
| pedestrians.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| The one place I've seen a Cessna on speeder patrol it
| certainly paid for itself. There was a spot where an
| interstate cut through an Indian reservation. The speed limit
| was set to 65 mph even though the road was better than that.
|
| A bird in the sky plus more cops than I would have thought
| they had were a frequent occurrence there, pulling over
| basically everyone who wasn't aware of the speed trap.
| Certainly worth it.
|
| One day they raised the limit to 75 which is far more
| appropriate--I've never seen the plane since, I've seen one
| cop a couple of times hiding behind the crest of a hill.
| themitigating wrote:
| "Even though the road was better than that"
| baq wrote:
| Where I live, people flying past you at 100+mph is a
| common occurrence on the autostrada. (Yeah not US.) Speed
| limit is 80ish.
| [deleted]
| hippocombinator wrote:
| Aren't speeding tickets known to be really big income for
| local governments?
|
| They can be hundreds of dollars; I'm sure it can work out
| financially if they can hand out enough, which seems likely
| from an airplane.
| loeg wrote:
| Can't give a specific driver a ticket from an airplane. I
| thought the main function of the planes was to follow
| extreme speeders, which has to be revenue negative -- just
| because there are so few and it takes so long -- but maybe
| a justified expense.
| shagie wrote:
| They are able to identify speeders without radar using
| fixed distance marks on the road and timing cars
| traveling between those marks. At that point, they are
| then able to give information about the car to the police
| on the ground for them to be pulled over.
| jjwiseman wrote:
| These days they all pretty much have systems like the
| Churchill/Shotover Augmented Reality Mapping System (ARS)
| which will give them target vehicle speed automatically.
| Even news helicopters use similar systems[1].
|
| 1. https://shotover.com/videos/videos/kabc_tv_air7hd_with
| _xtrem...
| mywittyname wrote:
| There are entire towns who can only afford to have a police
| department because of their ability to write traffic
| tickets.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| I used to live in a remote mountain village, located on one
| of the main highways across our central mountain range. 8km
| or so of the highway leading into the village was narrow and
| winding with no shoulder - the road lines were cut in the
| horse and coach days, so not designed for cars. It was
| surrounded by forest, often with bluffs on one side and a 20m
| drop on the other.
|
| People crossing the centre line on blind corners because they
| were driving too fast were a real hazard on that section of
| road.
|
| One summer (when the road was busiest) the Police ran an
| operation where a helicopter observed the road, and
| identified vehicles cutting corners, who were then pulled
| over outside the 8km stretch where it was safe to do so by
| waiting patrol cars.
|
| They only ran it for a couple of weeks, but the calming
| effect of it on bad driving on that stretch lasted months, it
| was awesome.
|
| So the Cessna might not be about making money, and more about
| the potential presence of the Cessna changing driving
| patterns increasing safety.
| stopagephobia wrote:
| "People will behave well if they think Big Brother is
| always watching so let's make them think that"
|
| Remember when you could leave your house and not get
| recorded? I miss that.
| kmonsen wrote:
| In Norway they put one of those radar boxes with a camera
| in places like this. They even put a sign a mile before
| saying there is going to be a box since the objective is
| not to catch people but to make the average traffic slow
| down.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| In the US (at least in NY), traffic tickets are
| considered income -especially in Manhattan. Some
| jurisdictions actually plan budgets on it. The same with
| civil forfeiture.
| xenophonf wrote:
| Not to be outdone by NYC, this happened in Chicago, too:
|
| > _A Tribune examination of overturned red light tickets
| revealed evidence that the city of Chicago has quietly
| cast a wider net to snare drivers since switching camera
| vendors earlier this year amid a bribery scandal._
|
| > _A before-and-after analysis of photographic evidence
| and interviews with experts suggests the transition to a
| new vendor last spring was accompanied by a subtle but
| significant lowering of the threshold for yellow light
| times._
|
| https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-
| yell...
| mywittyname wrote:
| This happened all over the US:
|
| https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ohio-town-must-pay-back-
| mil...
| nieve wrote:
| The New York Times has been running a series on traffic
| stops focusing on reasons for the high death rate among
| motorists who are pulled over, but they also did this
| long and infuriating piece on the funding issue. It was
| actually somehow even worse than I expected:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/31/us/police-ticket-
| quotas-m...
| edrxty wrote:
| They usually fly something like a 206 or 182 with a Flir
| gimbal and two people on board. Those types cost between $120
| and $200 an hour to operate plus whatever the costs of the
| gimbal are (mind that the gimbal may cost as much or more
| than the host aircraft).
|
| The pilot and sensor operator are paid so that's another
| $100+/hr after benefits and such are paid.
|
| I'm guessing they just do it to subsidize the aircraft and
| give it something to do between calls when it's on station.
| The aircraft costs money just sitting in the hangar so it'll
| help justify the costs.
| PhantomGremlin wrote:
| There's a "Portland Police Bureau" activity going on right
| now, using a C182. I think they are following a car on
| various local highways.
| https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a1d296
|
| But that's misleading. I've been told that the FBI usually
| pilots that particular aircraft. So the ADSB "owner" could
| be someone else.
|
| This also factors into economics. Stuff like FLIR might be
| expensive to local police agencies but that cost is totally
| irrelevant to the Federales. Same with salaries. The Feds
| are already getting paid. The incremental cost is $0.
|
| Most of the time this particular aircraft is observing
| various intersections in Portland. E.g. pursuing fleeing
| perps or monitoring street racing. Gang violence in
| Portland is out of control and there has been a public
| announcement that the FBI is helping.
| JCharante wrote:
| Even if they don't generate money from that, catching people
| speeding is a public service. If one disagrees with the idea
| that speeding is bad, then why don't we raise speed limits
| until the speeds deemed "reasonable" at under the limit.
| TigeriusKirk wrote:
| OK, let's do that.
| dymk wrote:
| 60 is plenty on Highway 18, especially during these wet
| fall and icy winter months
| zionic wrote:
| 60 as a limit on any controlled access road is an
| absolute joke.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| It turns out to be more difficult than people want.
|
| to be certain, some speed limits are low for bad-science
| reasons. But the other issue is that the speed limit
| isn't set for the average case; it's set for the safety-
| limit case. As one highway engineer's blog put it
| colorfully (paraphrasing from memory): they aren't set to
| keep your decently-well-maintained 4-door sedan with
| tires installed this year on the road; they're set to
| keep the 18-wheeler driven by a sleep-deprived trucker at
| night during a light drizzle on the road when one of
| their tires blows.
|
| Variable speed limits that adjust automatically with
| weather and lighting conditions can help, but the signage
| to indicate them costs money... Way more money than a
| static metal road sign.
| rwmj wrote:
| Sure, but fixed cameras along the route must be a lot
| cheaper than the plane.
| mywittyname wrote:
| They are illegal in a lot of states. I no small part
| because of the egalitarian nature of them. Government
| officials are getting ticketed and they get the same
| treatment as the rest of us.
|
| Some states have ruled them unconstitutional.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| They're on Waze five minutes later.
| echelon wrote:
| I'm a staunch privacy advocate, but we have thousands of
| people in my state dying a year from automobile
| accidents. (On par with gun deaths, a figure which
| includes 60+% suicides.)
|
| I'm not sure I'd fight it if we lined the entire
| interstate highway system with plate detectors.
|
| If your average speed is above a reasonable limit (80mph
| on low density straightaways?), then you receive a ticket
| at a rate multiplied by the duration of infraction.
| kmonsen wrote:
| Norway and Finland fines proportional to your yearly
| salary. Of course there are some problems with that, but
| in general I like that system more.
| closeparen wrote:
| Where there's a lot of speeding to catch is low density
| straightaways marked 35.
| kccqzy wrote:
| You can make these cameras so dense that there is very
| little opportunity for speeding in between two cameras.
| guruz wrote:
| No need for so many cameras. You only need two :-)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera)#Simila
| r_s...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Ave
| rag...
|
| (Sorry for the nerdy nitpick)
| occamrazor wrote:
| This is essentially the way it works in Switzerland. On
| motorways there are speed cameras every few kilometers:
| even with an app to warn you, it's not worth trying to
| speed between cameras.
| kmonsen wrote:
| Oh man I got so many speeding tickets in Switzerland
| (like 5 in two years). They were all super minor like $50
| or something?
|
| I heard it does not apply to all cantons, the Italian
| ones speeding is more OK.
|
| All that being said I really dislike the US system where
| you can pass a police car driving 75 on the 101 and he
| doesn't care. There has to be some enforcement of the
| rules.
| robocat wrote:
| When you travel in a country where limits are harshly
| enforced, driving is wayyy more relaxing because of the
| reduction in speed variation (most people travelling at
| the stated limit) and no crazy overtaking manoeuvres
| (idiots don't just harm themselves). That said, I'm not a
| fan of draconian speed limits.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > All that being said I really dislike the US system
| where you can pass a police car driving 75 on the 101 and
| he doesn't care. There has to be some enforcement of the
| rules.
|
| The US system is a probable cause generator.
| 404mm wrote:
| That's simple. Just do one camera at the beginning, one
| at the end and you can get average speed by simple math.
| While it allows you to go above the speed limit, you also
| have to slow down to "lose" that earned time so at the
| end it averages back to speed limit. Go ahead and
| advertise this speed trap well because the more people
| understand how this works the better.
| jonathankoren wrote:
| So? Wouldn't people that know the cameras are there drive
| slower than the people that don't? From a public safety
| point of view, known cameras are more effective at
| limiting speed than unknown ones.
|
| Reducing lane width is also shown to be a very effective
| speed control methodology, that does not require police
| enforcement.[0]
|
| Or are you concerned about a loss of local and state
| revenue? Seriously, the use of police for revenue
| generation, rather than public safety is an open secret
| among police and local governments.[1][2][3]
|
| [0] https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-
| guide/stre...
|
| [1] https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/policing-and-
| profit/
|
| [2] https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/generating-new-
| revenue-s...
|
| [3]
| https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-
| ben...
| Zak wrote:
| Good. If it's actually important that people drive slower
| in that area, everybody knowing there are speed cameras
| will have that effect.
| oh-4-fucks-sake wrote:
| Looking at you:
|
| - Crotch rockets (driven by dudes in jorts and a t-shirt
| flapping in the wind)
|
| - Dodge chargers w/ aftermarket exhausts
|
| - BMWs with iridescent vehicle wraps
|
| - Lifted pickup trucks with _massively_ oversized tires
| cheeze wrote:
| This reads like a Reddit comment.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| If everyone guns it right after passing the camera,
| you've potentially made things _more_ dangerous.
|
| Aircraft allow for a "you could get caught at any time"
| deterrent that cameras can't unless you put them
| literally everywhere.
| Gwypaas wrote:
| They still increase the safety by limiting the speed in
| for example an exposed intersection.
|
| On the other hand you can go the average speed route
| instead.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit_enforcement#Ave
| rag...
| megablast wrote:
| This is such an insane take.
|
| The speed limit is for everywhere for safety. They faster
| people go the more dangerous it is.
| sokoloff wrote:
| The US national speed limit was imposed as a fuel economy
| measure not a safety measure.
| jonathankoren wrote:
| Actually, people tend to drive at the speed that is safe,
| and traffic engineers set the limit at about the 85th
| percentile of the observed speed. Maximum limits on safe
| roads are usually lower than the observed speed, and so
| serve no purpose from a safety perspective.
|
| Traffic calming techniques like narrower lane widths and
| widths are shown to be more effective than police
| enforcement. The "downside" of these methods are that
| they're actually effective at controlling speed, and thus
| are a revenue loss.
| Edman274 wrote:
| Not the person you replied to, but I really feel like
| enforcement must be a pretty substantial part of what
| stops people from speeding and driving recklessly, given
| that traffic enforcement has been de-emphasized since the
| start of the pandemic and the number of road fatalities
| has gone up more than 7 percent, even though the actual
| number of miles driven has gone down.
|
| https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-
| show...
|
| If people drive at whatever speed they think is safe,
| then why would the aggregate number of people dying on
| roadways ever go up when miles driven by the same
| population goes down? Here are the possibilities:
|
| 1. Driving has become more risky due to external,
| uncontrollable factors, like weather or road changes that
| motorists can't account for or
|
| 2. People are modifying their behavior.
|
| Why would they modify their behavior? The roads haven't
| changed. The speed limits haven't changed. What has
| changed? More people are dead because of extreme speed
| and reckless driving on roadways, which kind of suggests
| that traffic enforcement did at least prevent some of
| those deaths.
| xorcist wrote:
| > Actually, people tend to drive at the speed that is
| safe,
|
| That not remotely true in any part of the world I've
| visited so far.
| konschubert wrote:
| The cameras are more effective if people have to expect
| them everywhere, because then they will (hopefully) stick
| to the speed limit everywhere.
| jjwiseman wrote:
| Sorry if I'm being pedantic, but a lot of people do think that
| all military and police aircraft are filtered by FlightAware,
| FlightRadar24, etc., and that's not true. Right now I can find
| several military and police aircraft flying in Southern
| California on both FA and FR24.
|
| As far as I know, the FAA doesn't ask anyone to filter any
| types of aircraft or data. They do have a program, LADD[1]:
| "Aircraft owners or designated representative may request
| limiting aircraft data displayed (formally referred to as
| blocking) or unblocking of flight tracking data." If you use
| FAA data I believe you must honor the LADD list, but as far as
| I know owners have to submit every registration number or call
| sign that they want blocked (and that list has even been
| FOIAed[2]). It's always possible that a flight tracking site
| might decide they want to voluntarily block some type of
| aircraft, but so far there doesn't seem to be evidence of that
| that I know of.
|
| [1] https://ladd.faa.gov [2]
| https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa...
| natch wrote:
| Thanks, good information.
|
| >If you use FAA data
|
| I was under the impression that FlightRadar24 uses crowd
| sourced data collected by users with radio receivers managed
| by Raspberry Pi if I recall correctly?
|
| That doesn't mean that they don't use FAA data, I just don't
| know that they do. And that's only addressing one of the two
| services you mentioned, of course.
| touisteur wrote:
| FR24 uses radars and multilat streams too in some countries
| iirc. Not all aircrafts have adsb but FR24 sees much more
| aircraft than ADSB adoption rate should show.
| verst wrote:
| Are you feeding data to FlightAware for the free Enterprise
| Subscription?
|
| By the way I'm in Ballard (near Discovery Park) and do notice
| those helicopters too. Whatever they are - they seem to usually
| originate at KBFI which is where I'm currently doing my PPL.
|
| Can you pick up both ADS-B and VHF radio with your setup or
| would VHF require other hardware?
| buildbot wrote:
| Small world! I too live in Ballard and have been super
| curious what these have been up to, they fly pretty low and
| have a lot of hardware hanging underneath them.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Different antenna. ADS-B is at 1090 MHz, and VHF air comms is
| more around 121-135 MHz. The same SDR radio can tune those
| two bands, but an antenna that works well for one would work
| poorly for the other.
| qwertyuiop_ wrote:
| > _Chinese Weibo users are also asking why the country hasn't
| 'recovered' Chumi Gyatse waterfall in Arunachal Pradesh from
| India. Some suggest occupying it._
|
| Hey USA there is some sweet little territory in Canada lets ask
| our government to occupy it.
| dirtyid wrote:
| PRC air corridors are concentrated in coast, commercial and
| military aviation are heavily intermixed because it's where
| population and security considerations are. Does not take much to
| capture a lot of data for useful analysis.
|
| Somewhat related, Ministry of State Security commented on 3
| security breaches to Xinhua recently. Case #3 was meteorolgical
| observation equipment setup near sensitive military base that
| sent data to overseas org. Insinuation seems to be it was part of
| crowdsource intel gathering for commercial purposes that
| ultimately had links to foreign military. Open source intel OSINT
| has been blowing up, so PRC looking to secure data.
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