[HN Gopher] Workers in Portugal could see healthier work-life ba...
___________________________________________________________________
Workers in Portugal could see healthier work-life balance under new
labour laws
Author : dsnr
Score : 205 points
Date : 2021-11-08 14:47 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.euronews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.euronews.com)
| arnvald wrote:
| There are a few other interesting things mentioned in the
| article:
|
| > Employers are also forbidden from monitoring their employees
| while they work at home.
|
| I'm wondering what that includes - any software that tracks mouse
| movement, applications used etc? Or is it limited in its scope?
| Anyway, sounds like a win and I hope other countries do that too.
|
| > However, a proposal to include the so-called "right to
| disconnect" - the legal right to switch off work-related messages
| and devices outside office hours - was rejected by Portuguese
| MPs.
|
| I don't understand this - so employer can't contact me but I
| can't disable my work phone? Sounds contradictory
|
| > [parents] now have the right to work from home without having
| to arrange it in advance with their employers
|
| Another win, though I'm wondering about the scope - who does it
| apply to? All office workers? Is there some definition of jobs
| where the work can be done remotely without limitations (e.g.
| having to use some machines available only at the work place)?
|
| > Companies must also now contribute to expenses that workers
| have incurred as a result of switching to remote working
|
| That's cool. I've seen companies already doing it in The
| Netherlands, but I don't know if it's regulated in any way, for
| now it seems companies come up with some arbitrary numbers
| between 40eur and 70eur a month.
|
| All in all, it's hard to say how some of these rules will be
| implemented and enforced, but I like the direction it's going.
| Portugal becomes one of top places to attract remote workers in
| Europe with it's low (for now) prices, friendly taxes, great
| climate and good level of English spoken in the cities.
| seszett wrote:
| >> However, a proposal to include the so-called "right to
| disconnect" - the legal right to switch off work-related
| messages and devices outside office hours - was rejected by
| Portuguese MPs.
|
| > I don't understand this - so employer can't contact me but I
| can't disable my work phone? Sounds contradictory
|
| I was probably deemed unnecessary to write this down in law
| since the company is already forbidden to contact employees
| outside of work hours.
| secondcoming wrote:
| > Companies must also now contribute to expenses that workers
| have incurred as a result of switching to remote working
|
| What about the savings? No pricey lunchtime sandwiches or
| commuting expenses. I don't think the above is fair.
| fimdomeio wrote:
| "I don't understand this - so employer can't contact me but I
| can't disable my work phone? Sounds contradictory"
|
| I believe worker can still be contacted in case of an
| emergency.
| libertine wrote:
| Now we just need to be competitive enough to have decent wages.
|
| Else those remote works are just going to increase even more
| housing costs (both rent/real estate), and keep funneling cash
| to what has proven to be our greatest weakness: tourism.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Wouldn't rising wages tend to increase housing costs?
| nuerow wrote:
| > _Else those remote works are just going to increase even
| more housing costs (both rent /real estate)_
|
| I'm not sure that's true. Remote work does not require
| workers to be at commute distance from anywhere, and it only
| requires them to have a reliable internet connection.
| Everyone I know who switched to remote work moved out of city
| centers and into places where both rent was lower and quality
| of life was higher.
|
| What exactly leads you to believe that fleeing tech hubs and
| urban centers leads to higher rents?
| libertine wrote:
| >Everyone I know who switched to remote work moved out of
| city centers and into places where both rent was lower and
| quality of life was higher.
|
| That's precisely my point, they're raising rent prices
| where rent was cheap - remember that construction isn't
| following growing demand, the supply of houses is the same.
|
| >What exactly leads you to believe that fleeing tech hubs
| and urban centers leads to higher rents?
|
| In the case of Portugal it's not tech hubs that are the
| cause for urban centers to have high rents, that's purely
| Tourism in our context. AirBnBs wiped a bunch of the
| supply, then pensioners and rich people that want to have
| houses in an European capital without paying London/Paris
| prices.
|
| Hell for 500k they can buy an house and even get a EU
| passport after 5 years. Where else can you get this deal?
| jdavis703 wrote:
| If companies can't monitor employees working from home how do
| they protect against malware? Does every employee now bear
| responsibility for keeping their system secure? If they cause a
| data breach because they didn't update their system could they
| be liable?
| capableweb wrote:
| What does monitoring have to do with malware? IT departments
| can setup automatic updating so employee equipment fetches
| and installs updates from the departments servers, and the
| "service" running on the employees machine doesn't have to
| send out monitoring data in order to facilitate this.
|
| Or is it essential to monitor the employee in order to
| prevent malware for some reason I'm too inexperienced to see?
| jdavis703 wrote:
| We have some software that monitors all network
| connections. I assume it's for DLP and perhaps identifying
| suspicious traffic. As far as I know, management doesn't
| use it for anything more than that. But it's certainly a
| form of monitoring, even if they're not using it to enforce
| a virtual "butts in seats" policy.
| simion314 wrote:
| >If companies can't monitor employees working from home how
| do they protect against malware?
|
| WTF ? if you as a company want protection againt malware then
| give me a super locked down work machine, where I can't
| install shit and updates will be done automatically?
|
| If I work remote and I am using my own hardware then fuck
| you, I don't install your malware on my own machine so you
| can check my personal stuff.
|
| So give me a lockeddown work machine if I have some super
| secret project that I work on. If you don't trust me and
| think I will screenshot your secrets then maybe is better we
| end this. I work from home for more then 10 years, it is all
| based on trust and progress tracking, but I don't work with
| super secret stuff, just the average proprietary SPAs(or
| desktop apps in the past).
| libertine wrote:
| As a portuguese, while this looks good on paper, it won't
| contribute whatsoever to our current situation.
|
| We're a country where the nationals earn like shit - probably one
| of the worst avg and median incomes in whole EU - and are choked
| to the brink of passing out by high taxes.
|
| Our political class is exchanging our young and bright over to
| foreign pensioners, and now apparently, foreign remote workers.
|
| Just so you understand the status quo: people were being pushed
| out of big cities for years, and now with remote work even more
| people are being pushed out of medium sized cities in the
| interior, because everyone wants to live in the country side or
| by the shore.
|
| We're fucked in every direction by high rents, high real-estate,
| high taxes, high energy costs, yet our incomes remain shit.
|
| In 20 years you'll probably see the news headline:
|
| "Workers in Portugal now must work until the age of 75 so they
| could see a healthier work-life balance under new labor laws!"
| vcoelho wrote:
| Yea, even us brazilians are refusing portuguese job offers ,
| even though we're struggling here, because of low salaries.
| vmsp wrote:
| Taxes are extremely high and that, in and of itself, is a huge
| issue but things are actually much worse.
|
| Want to use a road? You pay. Want to get some financial
| documents you actually need for work? You pay. Want a doctor to
| see you at a hospital? You pay.
|
| You pay for everything twice.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| I think the problem is more likely decades of under
| development/funding of social programs under Salazar, not
| high taxes now.
|
| My dad grew up under Salazar, they didn't even have school
| past 3rd grade, everything was underfunded as hell, it was
| basically a corporate oligarchy.
| jurassic wrote:
| How high is high? Can you give some specifics for foreigners
| who aren't familiar with the tax situation in Portugal?
| m0zg wrote:
| Another thing (besides high taxes and low wages) US leftists
| would like to copy from Portugal is complete legalization of
| all drugs, including the hard/addictive ones. I'd be curious to
| know from a local how well that worked (if at all) over the
| extended period of time.
| 101keyboard wrote:
| Calm down. Yes, some things are shit in Portugal. EUR0.2246 per
| kWh is not cheap but it is not crazy high.
|
| "Renewables account for 72% of Portugal's consumption in 5-mo
| 2021" May be important for the future
|
| I know real estate prices in Portugal are crazy. 500k in a city
| and you get a golden visa. Hence every decent apartment is 500k
| or more. In a country were the minimum salary is around 500
| euros.
|
| Look the the future. Portugal can and is attracting an nearly
| infinite supply of young people from Brazil, Angola,
| Mozambique. The future is good. Likely better than Italy.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > Our political class is exchanging our young and bright
|
| ...who would be unemployed.
|
| > over to foreign pensioners, and now apparently, foreign
| remote workers.
|
| ...who already have and income and are happy to spend it in
| Portugal.
|
| Not a terrible deal.
| libertine wrote:
| Those pensioners aren't the ones who will pay Social Security
| in the future mate. Portuguese politicians are digging a hole
| that we won't be able to recover from - just so you know the
| age of retirement keeps increasing with no end in sight.
|
| It should be the other way around.
| secondcoming wrote:
| Yes, fine if those pensioners move to Portugal permanently.
| If they're just living there during the summer then the place
| is dead for the rest of the year, and locals are priced out
| of staying there.
| gruez wrote:
| >> Our political class is exchanging our young and bright
|
| >...who would be unemployed.
|
| presumably the "young and bright" that are moving out of
| portugal aren't doing so they can be unemployed in another
| country. if anything they're retaining the
| unemployed/unemployable young adults but offloading the
| employable young adults.
| pelasaco wrote:
| I live partially in Germany and Portugal, as I have roots in
| both country. You are right, the average salaries are a joke
| and the living costs are sky rocketing. However, you have a
| great and stable society, a really specific market, good
| universities and sometimes I think what is missing is
| initiative. The young people prefer to go abroad than try to
| innovate in Portugal. For example, almost all disrupting
| startups in Portugal are lead by Brazilians. Sometimes I have
| the impression that we all forgot about our resilience (well
| described by Camoes and Pessoa).
|
| To all my Portuguese friends:
|
| "Viver nao e necessario. Necessario e criar."
|
| Fernando Pessoa
| libertine wrote:
| You're 100% right - though I don't think it's easy to risk it
| in Portugal, neither it's praised.
|
| I think our worst problem is that the majority seems to be
| _ok_ giving the appearance that they 're ok in life. I can't
| blame them, like some said: we have good weather and good
| food... low cost flights allows us to travel and post on
| social media showing we're going places... so in reality it
| seems like everything is ok.
|
| Yet it's not.
|
| Agostinho da Silva might say we're fulfilling our destiny of
| being "vadios" and artists, since he claims that's a way of
| living very rooted in our culture, waiting for machines to
| come do the work for ourselves. If that time will ever come,
| will be pros.
|
| I tried my own venture, and failed. In fact I've tried many
| things and failed at them. And I do wonder sometimes, what's
| the point?
|
| I always fold to play guitar, sketch, and have laughs with
| friends while we eat a home made meal.
| taurath wrote:
| Otoh a society that values leisure and social cohesion than
| cold efficient capital making sounds like a much more
| fulfilling place to fill out a few score trips around the
| sun than waking up at 60 with no hobbies in a cold dead
| mansion.
|
| Maybe the solution is just to go abroad if you find you
| can't not be getting your excitement from taking business
| risks
| [deleted]
| Aunche wrote:
| The reason you get the impression that countries like
| Portugal or Greece prioritize leisure is that you spend
| your vacations there and mostly interact with the
| wealthier residents. The relaxed Greek pensioner who
| speaks fluent English may appear to be middle class by
| your standards, but is actually a member of the elite.
| The actual average Greek is the one who is busting their
| butts off mopping the pristine facade of your Santorini
| Airbnb.
|
| Portugal actually has one of the longer working hours in
| the EU. Despite the reputation that Greeks are lazy, they
| actual work the longest. If the upper classes of these
| nations worked harder, they would create more higher-
| skill jobs for the average resident, so they wouldn't
| have to resort to working menial jobs for longer hours.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_averag
| e_a...
| havkd wrote:
| A very romantic view of mediocrity.
| edgefield wrote:
| So anything aside from hyper capitalism is mediocrity?
| This is a sad way of looking at the world.
| havkd wrote:
| Nuance is useful.
| libertine wrote:
| Where's the line that separates mediocrity from
| greatness?
| galfarragem wrote:
| Might be relevant:
|
| https://taxfoundation.org/comparing-corporate-tax-systems-
| eu...
| havkd wrote:
| I guess it's the same situation as in Spain - if you earn a
| degree and you stay in Portugal you're a grade A idiot. In
| other words brain drain.
| vmsp wrote:
| Mind explaining how to find this initiative of yours if
| you're living paycheck to paycheck?
| pelasaco wrote:
| In the end is about how much you want to sacrifice. Put
| some money aside, invest your free time, believe in an
| idea, but in the end: Put in the Work! Specially in our
| branch. A full stack developer earns in average EUR
| 1.500/month in Portugal. Work remotely from Portugal, have
| a side gig and make it happens.
| rfks wrote:
| Coming from Poland (theoretically a country with lower
| salaries than Portugal) this strikes me as super low -
| you can easily earn 2-3x that working remotely for
| English-speaking contracting companies, and way way more
| if you try to get a job at a remote first tech company.
| bacro wrote:
| Really? Care to elaborate how demanding are these jobs in
| terms of productivity, hard skills, etc?
| sofixa wrote:
| As always, grass is always greener - by median income Portugal
| is 11th in the ascending order (11th worst).
|
| https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKM...
|
| It sounds like a good piece of legislation. The rest needs to
| be fixed of course but that shouldn't stop all positive change.
| vmception wrote:
| Steep bell curve for everyone beneath them to be in eastern
| europe while Portugal is surrounded by or in close proximity
| to the highest percentile earners in Western Europe
| jdmoreira wrote:
| It's only 11th because a lot of countries are missing data
| for 2020. It's actually 19th for 2019. And I bet you it's not
| adjusted for taxes.
| rcpt wrote:
| > and are choked to the brink of passing out by high taxes
|
| What are property taxes like over there?
|
| I'm suspicious that your problem is the same as California, New
| Zealand, Canada and everyone else: deep tax cuts for long time
| landowners which everyone else has to make up for.
| speeder wrote:
| I was born in Brazil but I am currently in process to try to
| get a Portuguese citizenship (my ancestors are portuguese and
| raised me to be portuguese, I was only born in Brazil).
|
| I am considering moving to portugal even, but I must say I was
| shocked when I saw that income taxes for me would be 45%? And I
| was thinking I pay too much in Brazil at 27.5%...
|
| Are portuguese services really, really good at least? (in
| Brazil the services are not very good, we pay taxes + private
| education, private healthcare, private security, and the
| government expects private sector to build railways, etc...
| hell, some places people have private army too, with some parts
| of the country you being safe only if you bribe the army itself
| or hire mercenaries...)
| libertine wrote:
| >Are portuguese services really, really good at least?
|
| That's problem: they're not. Or better yet, they're very
| inefficient and rely too much on humans. Our public Health
| Care Service (SNS) is praised in some circles - but at the
| cost of poor wages and overworked staff. Not to mention the
| interior is starting to crumble with no people to make up for
| it.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| FWIW, coming to Portugal from the states, their turnaround
| time/effectiveness on everything related to covid was way,
| way, way better than it is here.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > Our public Health Care Service (SNS) is praised in some
| circles - but at the cost of poor wages and overworked
| staff.
|
| I remember looking up portuguese doctor wages once and I
| was pretty shocked. Technology jobs would be more
| advantageous.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| This is just Europe in general.
| pelasaco wrote:
| > my ancestors are portuguese and raised me to be portuguese,
| > I was only born in Brazil
|
| You are 100% Brazilian. Your ancestors, knew a Portugal from
| 100 years ago. It is the same with the japanese Dekasegi.
|
| Portugal is awesome, IMO the best country in the world, but
| you will definitely have a lower life standard there. If you
| are married, expect a lot of "saudades de casa".
| 101keyboard wrote:
| " IMO the best country in the world,"
|
| porque maloqueiro, porque?
|
| (I wanted to buy an apartment in Lisbon but is has become
| too expensive)
| citilife wrote:
| This is a product of socialism without protections. Put simply,
| you have high taxes to redistribute wealth. Unfortunately, the
| government takes their cut. As government becomes increasingly
| large / naturally corrupt that cut becomes larger.
|
| The wealthy can leave and gain more else-where and many leave.
| Increasing the burden. If you don't have heavy border controls,
| people who are less advantaged move to the country to gain from
| the social system. You'll also have remote workers move into
| cities because it is cheaper than their home region. This
| drives up costs in cities, but isn't enough tax revenue to
| offset the loss in wealthy people leaving, as it's highly
| focused. You'll also have people investing and buying property,
| which also drives up the costs.
|
| At the end of the day, if you want to improve life, you have to
| focus on
|
| (a) strict immigration policies (reducing pressure from
| immigrants)
|
| (b) strict import controls (raising internal wages)
|
| (c) reduce social system, focus on citizens and potentially
| reduce general services
|
| (d) reduce taxes on income, land and sales
|
| (e) increase import taxes and potentially tax on foreigners
|
| If you do the above, it'll reduce the burden on the individuals
| and protect & improve the internal labor market.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| > This is a product of socialism without protections. Put
| simply, you have high taxes to redistribute wealth.
| Unfortunately, the government takes their cut. As government
| becomes increasingly large / naturally corrupt that cut
| becomes larger.
|
| To blame this on socialism proves you don't know the history
| of Portugal.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| You are out of touch with the reality of modern economics.
| Your advice reads like a brochure from the 1920s and is flat
| out bad.
|
| You're essentially saying strip social services and become
| isolationist. Neither of which does any good for the economy
| or citizens.
|
| If people do what you suggest they will have a bad time
| because it's empirically proven your suggestions are mostly
| shit.
| 988747 wrote:
| The advice worked for both Japan and South Korea. Probably
| it is the only way to jump from "emerging" to "developed"
| category, economically.
| handrous wrote:
| Nitpicking, but Japan and South Korea rose by being,
| deliberately and thoughtfully, _protectionist_ , not
| _isolationist_. China 's doing the same thing now.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| What's wrong with isolationism?
| user743 wrote:
| We can see now that without import controls corporations
| are going to chase slave-like labor around the globe until
| there isn't another country left to go to. I'm guessing
| everyone is against worker exploitation. What else is the
| answer? Globalization circumvents any wins for human rights
| made locally.
| cheriot wrote:
| Is Portugal that much more socialist than Denmark, Finland,
| Germany, etc?
| whimsicalism wrote:
| No, it was basically the longest running explicitly
| corporate oligarchy in Europe until the carnation
| revolution in the 70s.
|
| Hilarious to be blaming this on socialism.
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| Were you dropped on your head as a child?
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Surprisingly rich people don't leave Northern European
| countries for Dubai.
|
| You can tax the SHIT out of people if they think they get
| something in return.
| dsomers wrote:
| True. I'm probably paying 60% of my income in tax living in
| Amsterdam. I could easily relocate to somewhere like
| Chicago or Austin, and pay way less and have cheaper living
| expenses, but I've seen enough of American cities to know I
| find their wealth divide so cruel I personally consider it
| a crime against humanity. It's just plain depressing to
| live in a society like that.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| The crime being the existence of poor people? Europe is
| way worse on these fronts, they just hide their poor
| people better and put them in the suburbs.
| dsomers wrote:
| Where have you been in Europe or the US? I have family on
| both sides of the Atlantic and know both continents quite
| well from personal experiences. The crime is letting
| people die from preventable illness because of
| unwillingness to provide universal healthcare, and a
| segregated system that makes higher education difficult
| to attain and keeps poor people in poverty.
|
| On your second point I wholeheartedly disagree, I've been
| in small villages in Serbia, and I know people from there
| very well. I also grew up 10 minutes from the Michigan
| boarder and have friends and family there too. From my
| experience, the poorest people in Serbia are less at risk
| of abject poverty and dying from preventable diseases
| than the poorest in Michigan. Sure if you look at the
| average salary for someone in Michigan vs someone in
| Serbia, Serbia is way lower, but if you actually look at
| quality of life factors for the bottom 10% of both those
| places I'd bet Serbia pulls way ahead.
|
| Edit: and I just use Serbia as an example because it's
| one of the poorest countries in Europe and I still think
| it's better than a lot of US states in how it helps its
| poor. When you look at health, safety, and educational
| outcomes of middle income and rich European countries
| they are often far ahead of the US averages. Christ, not
| everything is about maximizing GDP. Look at the average
| lifespan of an EU citizen that's almost 10 years longer
| than an American citizen.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| I'm an EU citizen as well as an American one. If you go
| to the suburbs in the outskirts of Paris, you will see
| what I am talking about. (the so-called "banlieue")
|
| The US is going to have more obvious poverty also because
| they are more accepting of immigrants from impoverished
| countries.
|
| > Look at the average lifespan of an EU citizen that's
| almost 10 years longer than an American citizen.
|
| Laughably false. A 10 year difference would be
| ridiculous!
|
| You can look up everything that I am talking about. The
| (non-European) immigrant communities in Europe are
| incredibly poor, but kept out of sight because European
| development models involve affluent city centers and
| pushing minorities out to the suburbs, rather than the
| reverse which occurs in the US.
|
| The US certainly has problems with these sorts of things,
| but headlines like:
|
| https://www.newsweek.com/french-activists-39-percent-
| paris-t...
|
| or
|
| https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Clubs-accused-of-
| rac...
|
| are something unimaginable in the West outside of Europe.
| exporectomy wrote:
| You don't want to live in a city with poor people because
| it's cruel to have rich and poor living near each other?
| It kind of is because relative poverty makes people feel
| worse, but you'll surely bring useful tax money with you
| too.
| pelasaco wrote:
| We tend to talk about "socialism" in Portugal, but few
| countries that I know are more neoliberal than Portugal.
| Almost everything is private or is managed by private
| companies. Portugal is one of the few countries which
| exchanges visa for money. Our approach to Uber and Airbnd was
| until 2019, pretty liberal. I'm not saying that is right or
| wrong, just that even though the people vote for socialism,
| what we get in the end is neoliberalism.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Portugal has nothing on the anglosphere here, but yes is
| probably liberal by European standards.
| galfarragem wrote:
| Not correct. Locals get socialism. Foreigners ultra
| capitalism. Portugal is a tax haven but only for
| foreigners. We exchange EU visas and tax isentions for
| money to sustain the socialist ideology.
| throwawaybchr wrote:
| I wonder if there are any advertising agencies in Portugal
| kache_ wrote:
| Worklife balance laws will never work because there will always
| be uber competitive mad lads who will put in 12 hour days to get
| ahead.
|
| The only thing that will give you work life balance is leverage
| in the form of valuable skills that your organization cannot
| replace.
| standardUser wrote:
| Work life balance laws like the 40 hour work week and paid
| family leave work just fine when implemented. There's dozens
| more examples.
| PaywallBuster wrote:
| from
|
| boss: system is down
|
| to
|
| pingdom: system is down
| ahtihn wrote:
| Being on call is a thing and it should be compensated.
|
| Expecting employees to be on call 24/7/365 however should
| definitely not be a thing.
| forinti wrote:
| My admittedly brief experience of working with Portuguese is that
| they ask a lot of you but that you have the real option of saying
| no.
|
| If you fold, they'll skin you alive. If you stand your ground,
| you can have a nice life.
| tyleo wrote:
| I wonder if this includes sending slack messages or emails
| outside of work. I've personally never been _texted_ outside of
| work but I've received these other forms of communication.
|
| I'm also a US tech worker. Maybe texting outside work is more
| common in other countries or professions.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Other countries (France, Italy, Slovakia, and now Portugal)
| outside the US are slowly implementing legislation to prohibit
| after hours contact to enforce work like balance and boundaries
| (because you can't expect employers to do this out of the
| goodness of their hearts; they will extract as much as they can
| in jurisdictions without sufficient labor protections, speaking
| from high level macro observations).
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_disconnect
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| This may work as long as everyone is in the same timezone.
| rogerkirkness wrote:
| It's a low agency version of work/life balance that requires
| people to share the governments interpretation.
| a0zU wrote:
| Ok?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Simply providing context in regards to the second paragraph
| of the comment I replied to as an advocate for this sort of
| legislation and regulation.
| traveler01 wrote:
| This shouldn't be an example to anyone. This isn't a real
| measure, wasn't thought or anything. This is a law made by
| politicians who are in campaign for the election in january.
| toast0 wrote:
| > This is a law made by politicians who are in campaign for the
| election in january.
|
| Isn't that all laws? The next election campaign starts the
| second once the current election results are final.
| themitigating wrote:
| Those damn politicians helping people just so they get the
| votes.
| [deleted]
| adamcharnock wrote:
| I've been living in Portugal for 3 years now. I'm from the UK,
| I'm not tax-exempt, I speak basic Portuguese, I live rurally in
| Central Portugal, I mostly socialise with other foreigners.
|
| I'm also a foreigner commenting on a diverse country into which I
| only have a narrow view. My experience may not be representative.
|
| Bearing all that in mind, here is a random collection of my
| experiences for those who are interested:
|
| EMPLOYMENT
|
| There isn't much work here for foreigners. Definitely not much
| skilled work, but there is occasional low-skilled manual work
| involving working on the land, construction etc. This kind of
| work is paid at about EUR6/hour. Many of the foreigners I know do
| remote work (language teaching, translation, graphical work).
|
| There also isn't much work here for locals, but with an
| additional spin. When I first arrived here the land I own was
| very overgrown and needed a lot of work done. I made a conscious
| effort to try to employ local young-ish people to help, but the
| work was very unreliable in a variety of ways (quality,
| reliability, people getting into fights and feuds). I've come to
| the rough conclusion that all the young locals who can leave this
| area have left (for the cities, or UK/France), and everyone who
| remains are those who could not leave for whatever reason. I
| don't blame them, especially as I know some of them were dealt a
| really crappy hand.
|
| The result is that as an employer it is hard to find good people.
| I know this doubly now as I have also started an ISP here. We go
| to the local startup accelerator and ask if there is anyone who
| we can hire to help us with marketing, and nothing. They've gone
| to Lisbon, improved their marketing skills, and not come back
| (because why would they)
|
| In the end we use something like UpWork and hire people in
| Lisbon/Porto to do the work for us. Thereby sending more money to
| the cities.
|
| BUSINESS
|
| I think there are an increasing number of businesses who's
| customers are 95% foreigners. I know a Portuguese guy who sells
| firewood who says as much. I run an ISP and it is definitely the
| case.
|
| LAND PRICES
|
| I'm broadly aware that land prices are going up around here.
| Foreigners that come here mostly want to live on land, outside
| the villages. Typically this land has not be maintained for a
| long time because the owners become old, decided to stop farming
| it, and open a shop in the village instead (as the previous owner
| of my land did). The locals generally prefer to live in the
| villages. Yes there will be overlap, but my intuition says that
| rural-land-prices and village-house-prices are not rising at the
| same rate.
|
| GENERAL ATTITUDES
|
| As long as you speak some Portuguese, the locals are happy to
| have you (at least from what I can tell). Be nice, be friendly,
| always help someone out if you can (even if you're busy), and it
| seems to be fine.
|
| Most of all, take care of the land. Many of the locals remember
| how the area looked 50 years ago and are sad to see it become an
| overgrown wilderness (esp in forest fire season). When I'm
| cleaning up the road-facing part of my land, every single person
| that comes past gives me a big smile and a thumbs up. Seeing
| those fruit trees producing again, rather than being full of
| brambles, starts to bring the area back to life.
|
| The older people seem to respect practical skills and actually
| doing the work. I think they have seen a generation of
| "druggards" (AFAIK, drug-taking drop-outs) not really
| contributing anything. So they respect people who come here and
| actually do the work themselves.
|
| LANGUAGE
|
| People under the age of 40 typically speak English as a second
| language, people over 40 (ish) typically speak French as a second
| language.
|
| When I first moved here it was normal to go into a shop/cafe etc
| and you would _have_ to speak Portuguese (unlike Lisbon /Porto,
| where English is somewhat standard). That has been changing a bit
| over the last few years as more and more foreigners come to this
| area. Shops increasingly try to ensure they have someone on staff
| with good English. (no value judgement either way from me)
|
| Portuguese people will acknowledge that Portuguese is a very hard
| language, but they'll also point out that you can get free
| classes in the local city. I interpret this as, "It's hard, but
| you gotta at least try"
|
| FOREIGNER TYPES
|
| I see three kinds of foreigners moving to this area: retirees,
| hippies, and professionals. The last category is where I am, and
| it is the smallest category, but it is steadily growing. We
| typically move here with some remote/passive income stream and
| split our time between earning money and house building. The
| money we earn we funnel into building supplies, and also vehicles
| & equipment.
|
| FINAL CAVEAT
|
| I have experienced all of the above, but yeah, I've only lived
| here for a few years. I'm not saying anything of the above is
| universal at all, and I'm sure it isn't the entire picture.
| uxcolumbo wrote:
| Thanks for this summary - I'm interested in Portugal, depending
| on how things will further develop here in the UK.
|
| You should write more about your off-grid living in Portugal
| and how you managed the move etc. I'd be interested in that.
|
| What are your views on climate change and how it will impact
| Portugal say a decade from now, i.e. will it still be a good
| place to live?
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| I'm also from the UK, now living in Portugal for the last 5
| years - but in the city.
|
| There doesn't seem to be a strong working class culture like
| what we have in the UK, everyone is (trying to be) painfully
| middle class. There are thousands of varieties of red wine, but
| only 2 brands of beer, and they taste the same anyway. Their
| version of a pub (or dive bar for our US friends) is a brightly
| lit cafe with plastic furniture, not exactly a place for
| serious plotting, wild adventures, or an ill-conceived horror
| story. Hard work is for poor people - in any case 'work' is a
| social function more than an economic one, wealth is acquired
| (preferably by birth) not created. Everyone lives with their
| parents - in their heads if not actually.
|
| Feels like an endless Sunday school here sometimes, I wish they
| would actually go and _do_ something, even something bad and
| wrong and horrible (no, corruption does not count, that is just
| sly and underhand. Neither does faking an injury Ronaldo, we
| haven 't forgotten).
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| Has Brexit effected your ability to stay in Portugal? I was
| wondering if all those Brit owned vacation places on the beach
| were going to come on the market.
| [deleted]
| rightbyte wrote:
| This is just annoying for those with legitimate need to send
| messages. Like trying to solve sick leave vacancies or conveying
| practicalities.
| rjzzleep wrote:
| In Germany you - the employee - have to inform the workplace of
| sick leave before a certain time. And you're liable if you
| don't. But I'm sure that nobody will fine you for asking if
| someone that is sick that didn't report it.
|
| Some of these comments here are just strawman arguments.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > In Germany you - the employee - have to inform the
| workplace of sick leave before a certain time. And you're
| liable if you don't.
|
| You have to tell them you're going to be sick before you're
| sick?
| marcosdumay wrote:
| I read that as you have to inform before your shift starts.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Ye, well but you can call in sick the same morning as you
| were supposed to go to work.
|
| Depending on the work, trying to fill the vacancy with off
| duty workers can be rather important. Lets say a folding
| bridge operator or something.
|
| Devs on the other hand almost never has work that has to be
| done right now, every day. With proper planning the "almost
| never" is just "never".
| rjzzleep wrote:
| Well then you need to make sure it's covered by your
| contract with the off-duty workers. If it's covered by the
| contract then you have nothing to worry about with this law
| anyway. If it isn't tough luck.
|
| Most countries already had rules about this. The thing with
| rules and laws is that they only matter when employees
| actually legally enforce them. When employees are scared of
| their employers it's generally fuckall for employers
| anyway.
|
| I don't get why people here freak out about this.
| tremon wrote:
| The GP's comment is about what the employer does next. So,
| you as an employee inform the workplace that you're sick, as
| is required. Can the workplace now contact your (off-duty)
| colleagues to ask if someone can take over your shift? I
| would say that is a reasonable thing for an employer to do
| when faced with a scheduling emergency.
| Jiro wrote:
| News reporting tends to leave out nuances. We need to see the
| text of the regulation to see if it actually has exceptions for
| situations like that. (Or rather, someone who speaks Portuguese
| needs to see it.)
| standardUser wrote:
| Is it annoying? I don't think this article goes into enough
| depth to drawn any conclusions, let alone to conclude that the
| law was written to be as onerous as possible in common
| situations like these.
| vincnetas wrote:
| there's a saying that your lack of planning is not my
| emergency. but yes of course it's not black and white. there
| can be situations when you need to contact people.
| rightbyte wrote:
| I agree. But there are alot of posts in society that need to
| be manned. I don't see how that is solvable if you can't
| contact off duty workers.
|
| Even if you have buffer extra on-duty workers you hit the
| long tail at some point. And I don't see how there could be
| standby extras for more unique posts.
| mym1990 wrote:
| Everyone will try to justify their need to send messages as
| 'legitimate'. I imagine with this law that communication will
| become more proactive. If you need to solve a problem, do it
| earlier than later. If it is an emergency, than have an actual
| plan laid out.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Well, doctors and firefighters are legitimate.
|
| I can be similarly on call for data center duty.
|
| The problem is to well define those.
|
| But all in all, I don't mind my clients texting me after work
| hours. I just put my phone on mute.
| [deleted]
| ratww wrote:
| There is already a very simple solution to solve being "on
| call": pay the damn person for the hours they need to be
| ready to answer the phone. That's how Doctors and
| Firefighters (and developers!) do in places I lived.
|
| If I need to be sober or awake, or can't put my phone on
| mute... well, then I'm obviously on the clock.
|
| I also don't mind my company texting or calling for
| emergencies, but babysitting the system for free on
| PagerDuty like some SV companies ask to is incredibly
| stupid.
| logicalmonster wrote:
| Workplaces not bugging employees after hours is a great rule of
| thumb, but blanket rules don't leave room for people to use their
| judgement to resolve (hopefully very rare) legitimate emergencies
| and problems.
| mabub24 wrote:
| It's probably tied to their actual work agreement/contract.
|
| If one of your explicit work requirements is to be on-call,
| then it's likely fine. That way employees can also argue that
| they should get paid for that time as well (and usually, on-
| call agreements also have compensation rules as well).
| Viliam1234 wrote:
| If you can refuse the on-call agreement and still keep your
| job, then it is okay. Otherwise, it is an option for
| employers to take away their employees' free time as they
| wish.
|
| The cost of my time as an employee is _not_ linear. Just
| because I am selling 8 hours of my time for X money, doesn 't
| meant I would be happy to sell 16 hours for 2X money. And if
| I am taking a week of a vacation, it means I want to relax
| and walk somewhere in nature and be left alone. If you want
| someone available 365 days a year, hire _two_ people.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| I suppose there are exceptions in the law. I assume a doctor on
| call can be texted.
| galfarragem wrote:
| "But the amendments to Portugal's labour laws have limits: they
| will not apply to companies with fewer than ten employees."
|
| I suspect the real problem is exactly here not on large
| companies.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > I suspect the real problem is exactly here not on large
| companies.
|
| Small companies usually can't risk burning out their staff -
| for large companies, churn is priced in everywhere, but a small
| company can easily run aground when the wrong employee leaves.
|
| This amendment targets precisely large companies who abuse
| churn to save money.
| KMnO4 wrote:
| It's not about "risking burning out the employees". Small
| companies simply don't have a chain of command and employees
| are taking on so many mission-critical things at once that
| employers need them to be constantly available.
|
| I worked at a startup as an engineer and was the most
| technical person at the company. My personal life was not
| respected by the CEO because I was the only one who could
| navigate the 2am calls with the overseas manufacturers. I
| ended up quitting my job because of that, but someone more
| desperate for work than me would have probably taken that
| abuse for a lot longer, at the detriment of their mental
| health.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| As someone who has worked in many companies of various sizes,
| it's more manager dependent than size of the company dependant.
| igammarays wrote:
| I say don't make it illegal, but require it to be counted as paid
| overtime with a per-minute minimum wage.
| ape4 wrote:
| I guess Slack, Teams and all messaging apps will add a feature to
| queue up a message to be sent at exactly 9am (or whenever work
| starts)
| rjzzleep wrote:
| I remember a person responding to slack messages at 2am not
| because she wanted to but because their boss was pressuring
| everyone to respond immediately, while telling people that they
| just make a choice not to respond outside of office hours. If
| you didn't respond in slack they would follow up with a
| WhatsApp message.
|
| Slack has now integrated message scheduling, but before that
| there used to be addons to do that. There is a big difference
| between you choosing to do something and a toxic startup
| culture where the boss thinks it's part of the grind and shames
| people when they're not onboard.
| driverdan wrote:
| What do you mean? All you have to do is close Slack / log out
| of it or turn on DnD. All of your messages will be sitting
| there waiting for when you open it next time.
| screye wrote:
| Man, I can't wait for that to be implemented.
|
| So often I want to ask a question to someone, but not disturb
| them in their off hours. It is not urgent enough to keep them
| up at night, it is urgent enough to me needing an answer the
| next morning. Emails have become too formal for most people
| now, so I don't like sending them unless absolutely necessary.
| This is especially true for those working across timezones or
| night owls like me.
|
| Now, my ADHD low working memory brain would love to queue these
| messages and forget about them. Rather than cluttering my todo
| list ( big no-no) or even worse keeping them in my head for an
| extra 12 hours.
|
| It seems to be trivial to implement and I am honestly surprised
| it isn't a feature already.
| tremon wrote:
| _So often I want to ask a question to someone, but not
| disturb them in their off hours._
|
| I just send the message anyway, and I expect it to be read
| whenever they log back on to work. I would not expect any
| message, sent during off-hours, to be received immediately by
| the recipient.
| standardUser wrote:
| You can schedule a message to be sent the next morning. Much
| better than just sending it during off hours in cases where
| it isn't strictly urgent.
| babyblueblanket wrote:
| I think slack has an option to send a message at a specific
| time, at least I've used it.
| ape4 wrote:
| After work hours it could be the default
| sokoloff wrote:
| For a group channel, that's often undefined.
|
| I sure wouldn't want slack to have access to my calendar
| or PTO schedule, especially given that I can already
| manage notifications today.
| themitigating wrote:
| I was about to quickly type "email" but you did address that.
| However what about fixing the email problem? A slack message
| can be an email without modification. There are also template
| footers if that's what you mean about formal
| chadlavi wrote:
| Slack already has that
| kroltan wrote:
| No need to wait, apparently: https://i.imgur.com/gtZ9kO4.png
| willvarfar wrote:
| > Building a healthy remote working culture could also bring
| other benefits to Portugal, Mendes Godinho said, in the form of
| foreign remote workers seeking a change of scenery.
|
| > "We consider Portugal one of the best places in the world for
| these digital nomads and remote workers to choose to live in, we
| want to attract them to Portugal," she told the Web Summit
| audience.
|
| Portugal has form in this regard. If it sets out to do this at a
| national level, it will likely actually deliver.
|
| It has already succeeded in making itself a great place for other
| nationals to retire to, for example. Portugal has deliberately
| arranged its tax system to attract pensioners, and done big sales
| pushes.
|
| And it works. Lots of Swedish pensioners, for example, receive a
| Swedish state pension but spend that money in their new
| retirement home in Portugal.
| galfarragem wrote:
| Welcome to Portugal!
|
| The country where nationals get one of the highest tax rates in
| Europe[0] and foreigners get a tax haven!
|
| [0] https://taxfoundation.org/personal-income-tax-rates-europe/
| nuerow wrote:
| > (...) nationals get one of the highest tax rates in
| Europe[0] and foreigners get a tax haven!
|
| Why is this bad? If foreigners don't move to Portugal then
| they contribute zero in taxes and to the economy. If the
| Portuguese government convinces people to move to Portugal
| with tax benefits, they will pay taxes and spend their income
| in the local economy.
| galfarragem wrote:
| > Why is this bad?
|
| I'm not an inequality whiner but having two sets of rules
| is too much for me..
|
| How would you feel if you were a local?
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| > Why is this bad?
|
| It's great for Portuguese Treasury, Real Estate investors
| and the Hospitality Industry. But terrible for everyone
| else living in Portugal.
|
| Foreign buyers have driven the housing market well above
| the purchasing power of locals, who still have one of the
| lowest salaries in Europe specially when adjusted to cost
| of living.
|
| For perspective, Portuguese minimum wage is 600 euros with
| a mode at around 1k per month (pre-tax).
| nuerow wrote:
| > _It 's great for Portuguese Treasury, Real Estate
| investors and the Hospitality Industry. But terrible for
| everyone else living in Portugal._
|
| Why do you believe that? I mean, is no one working in the
| hospitality or constructions industry, and is no one
| benefiting from public spending?
|
| > _Foreign buyers have driven the housing market well
| above the purchasing power of locals, who still have one
| of the lowest salaries in Europe specially when adjusted
| to cost of living._
|
| If there is foreign investment in real estate increasing
| supply and in the process creating jobs and tax revenue,
| and if there is an increase in demand for this specific
| market segment, isn't there a net benefit to society? And
| why do you assume that low-wage workers would be in the
| market for high-end housing in tourism centers if not for
| these foreign investors?
|
| > _For perspective, Portuguese minimum wage is 600 euros
| with a mode at around 1k per month (pre-tax)._
|
| A quick Google search points out that Portugal offers
| golden visas to real estate investors who spend more than
| EUR500k on a home[1]. That's hardly the same market
| segment being serving the demand of most citizens of
| western Europe. Why is this being spun as a "they're
| taking our jobs"-kind of propaganda?
|
| [1] https://www.ft.com/content/36e18c72-512b-4c87-a41f-8b
| a2a9157...
| Scharkenberg wrote:
| I might be interpreting it wrong, but I read it in the
| "gentrification"-like way, not in the "they're taking our
| jobs" way.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| Indeed, the main issue is the earnings stagnation that
| Portuguese have experienced following post-2008. For
| perspective, many of the EU members that were behind the
| iron curtain have already surpassed Portugal in terms of
| PPP.
|
| This loss in buying power is further exacerbated by the
| assymetry in housing costs precipitated by 'short-stay
| accomodation' Tourism and foreign pensioners driving up
| gentrification.
|
| The golden visa argument from OP is non-sense. Despite
| the media controversy in the EU regarding Portugal and
| Cyprus golden visas, in Portugal these visas accounted
| for less than 17k families that actually settled in
| Portugal.
| pkaye wrote:
| Though according to that link, the top income bracket is 14x
| the average wage in Portugal vs Sweden where it is 1.1x
| average wage.
| odshoifsdhfs wrote:
| Yeah, and now Sweden is/was considering limiting this as it
| considers Portugal a tax haven for their nationals. This (and
| previous) government can suck balls. They don't give a shit
| about the actual portuguese living here. High tax rates, shitty
| public services, but if they can attract any foreign money to
| look good, fuck the portuguese.
|
| And don't get me started on how these foreigners that get tax
| exempt status drive up prices of everything here (ps: no
| problem with foreigners per se, just the ones that get special
| tax status). Had French and Italian people here literally tell
| me that what they save in taxes with these schemes basically
| pays for the house, so they don't mind paying more for the
| houses (I worked with some real estate companies)
|
| https://algarvedailynews.com/news/14974-swedes-in-portugal-f...
| zz865 wrote:
| Just a reminder that Portugal has some of the lowest wages in
| Europe, minimum wage is 600 Euro/month. Strict laws to protect
| workers is great until there are no evil employers left to employ
| anyone.
| sofixa wrote:
| Median salary is 11th worst in the EU:
|
| https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKM...
| wwtrv wrote:
| How do you even get this number? Even if I only count actual
| EU member (exclude Norway) that have numbers for 2020
| Portugal ends up 15th, when Ireland and Italy publish their
| data it will be 17th.
|
| Also is this purchasing power adjusted? If not probably it's
| even lower since East European countries tend to have lower
| cost of living.
| gruez wrote:
| >Also is this purchasing power adjusted?
|
| presumably switching the units to "Purchasing power
| standard (PPS)" does this? If we do that, and use 2019 data
| (to get a more complete dataset), we find that portugal is
| 21 out of 32 countries (including non-EU countries, too
| lazy to exclude them, and excluding iceland and uk because
| they have no data).
| wwtrv wrote:
| Oh, I'm stupid.. it's 11th worst counting from the
| bottom, rather than 11th highest.
| ssijak wrote:
| 600e minimum sounds good when you live in a country also in
| Europe where the average is 500e, and that average is fake
| because there are a lot unregistered workers working illegally
| for smaller amounts.
| cfn wrote:
| Yes, until you learn that the average rental in Lisbon is
| over 900 Euros per month.
| ssijak wrote:
| here it is 400-500 euros for 1 bedroom apartment in the
| city center. and to buy 1 square meter is 2500-3000euros in
| centrish locations. which is 5-6times the average salary.
| compute that.
| bosie wrote:
| thats 5x the avg net salary per month?
| ssijak wrote:
| yes, to buy 1 square meter it is 5-7x the total average
| salary
| HWR_14 wrote:
| For those in the US, the quoted minimum wage is ~$4.35/hr
| downrightmike wrote:
| Just under 600 euros a month, without public services or
| safety nets.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| I'm sorry, are you saying that Portugal's public
| services/safety nets are inferior to the US's? I don't know
| much about them, but I seem to recall that you provide free
| treatment to drug addicts instead of just throwing them in
| jail.
| nashashmi wrote:
| What about the other way around? Employee texts boss?
| ratww wrote:
| But are there employees calling bosses after hours to ask them
| to do work? What happens if the boss doesn't obey the employee?
| The employee fires the boss and takes over the company?
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| > The new rules are also good news for parents of young children.
| They now have the right to work from home without having to
| arrange it in advance with their employers, up until their child
| turns eight years old.
|
| Besides the usual complains about well-intentioned but badly
| implemented socialist policies and the disregard for 2nd order
| effects - this seems like a pretty heavy rule to impose?
| whatatita wrote:
| What is there to implement? If you can work from home, you're
| permitted to do so. Employers will take some time to get up to
| grade, but at least now they have notice.
| jl6 wrote:
| > However, a proposal to include the so-called "right to
| disconnect" - the legal right to switch off work-related messages
| and devices outside office hours - was rejected by Portuguese
| MPs.
|
| I genuinely don't get this. It seems completely backwards.
|
| Surely your boss should have the right to contact you, but you
| should have the right not to answer until your working hours
| recommence?
|
| Is Portugal deciding that the very act of sending a message
| creates some kind of coercive pressure to work?
|
| If so, why did they decide _against_ the "right to disconnect"?
| dsnr wrote:
| The problem as I see it is that it can put you at an unfair
| disadvantage to your team-mates who might choose to reply to
| your boss, or even do that "urgent thing" that your boss wants.
| Now you're suddenly the employee who chose not to "dedicate"
| extra 15 mins of your time to that "important" project. There
| should not be this kind of competition outside of working
| hours. Free time and family life should be protected.
| jl6 wrote:
| I don't buy it. This law doesn't prevent competition outside
| working hours. The employee who wants to be seen to go "above
| and beyond" doesn't need a time-specific prompting message to
| decide to work an extra 15 minutes.
|
| The boss can easily _make it known_ that those extra 15
| minutes would be rewarded, either by dropping an email at
| 4:59pm, or using management cliches like "going the extra
| mile" and "taking one for the team", or worse, manipulative
| non-verbal techniques that give advantage to in-groups and
| create barriers to out-groups.
| pelasaco wrote:
| I read the linked article with the feeling: "Ok, that's not for
| Portuguese. They want to attract remote workers, to live in
| Portugal, not to retain Portuguese people". Tom Bateman, isn't
| Portuguese. Less than 25% of Portuguese work force, worked from
| home during lockdown. This number will decrease, as soon as
| "covid is gone". Therefore I fail to see where this rules will
| help Portuguese people.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| ''However, a proposal to include the so-called "right to
| disconnect" - the legal right to switch off work-related messages
| and devices outside office hours - was rejected by Portuguese
| MPs.''
|
| Didn't we already had this right in EU?
| atticmanatee wrote:
| Yes, hence why a redundant law was rejected.
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