[HN Gopher] Segmentors vs Integrators: Google's work-life-balanc...
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Segmentors vs Integrators: Google's work-life-balance research
Author : ed
Score : 58 points
Date : 2021-11-07 17:55 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (rework.withgoogle.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (rework.withgoogle.com)
| apeace wrote:
| I hope I don't insult anyone I work with who reads this, because
| they're all wonderful people and I enjoying hanging out with
| them. But for me, I realized a long time ago that I'm happier if
| my "friends" are different from my "work friends".
|
| At least in the NYC startup scene, I've noticed a tendency for
| coworkers to spend a lot of time together outside the office. I
| used to do it, too. Not just the occasional Thursday evening
| beer, but every weekend, or even several times a week. They treat
| it as their main social circle.
|
| I'm a programmer, but coincidentally most of my friends are
| artists. I enjoy that they're not particularly invested in what I
| do, but I still feel appreciated when they sometimes ask about
| "how the internet works" or "what really _is_ coding anyways?" I
| can be a "tech guy" but not make it my entire identity.
|
| Overall, I think it's better that when I'm with friends I get to
| talk about the other aspects of life, and take a break from being
| constantly tech-focused. And, of course, get my mind off of work
| for once!
| pcrh wrote:
| I concur with this view. I did my PhD in an "Oxbridge" college,
| and one of the best parts of that was being able to spend time
| out of work with smart people who were not in my own field.
| They might be historians, economists, chemists, artists,
| architects, etc, etc. But all accomplished to some extent in
| their own fields.
| rodgerd wrote:
| I have a few people that I keep up with outside work, but for
| me there's a couple of things I've learned the hard way, and
| one thing that I learned watching my parents' generation learn
| the hard way.
|
| I'm pushing 50, so my parents are boomers. While they had a
| much easier ride than their children and grandchildren in many
| ways, one thing that buggered a lot of them in the 80s was that
| the idea of long-term employment was brutally ripped away.
| People who had worked at the same firm for 20 or 30 years were
| unceremoniously dumped out of work by Chainsaw Al Dunlap
| inspired gutting of companies; many of those people had their
| personal relationships revolve around work as well as their
| professional life, and were kicked in the guts twice by the
| process, losing their social circle at the same time as the
| upheval of their financial lives. Being dependent on your
| employer for your social circle, your income, and your
| professional development is a terrible thing.
|
| Secondly, personally, if I hang out with people I work with, I
| have a hard time talking about stuff that's not work. It's not
| healthy for me, and probably tedious for them (unless they
| suffer from the same problem). We need to breathe. Rehashing
| the working day in your evenings and weekends is not a way to
| decompress. Others may be different, but I am happier if I
| spend my evening talking about, say, the points in common of
| Villneuve's Duke Leto and Cornwell's Arthur, rather than which
| person is being an annoying arsehole.
| tester756 wrote:
| The tone of your post is quite scary
|
| hell yea, yes it's pretty healthly to have work-life balance
|
| think about this:
|
| you probably spent years at college/uni being sorrounded by
| nerds, then at work place 8h/day everyday,
|
| then probably on the internet - hackernews, so what left? your
| SO being coder too? your friends working in IT too?
|
| there's nothing wrong with wanting to avoid burnout.
| fermentation wrote:
| I've always thought this too, however in practice it seems
| difficult to implement. I have friends from childhood that I
| visit, but they don't live near me. As someone who isn't
| dating, most of my opportunities to speak with new people come
| from work.
| thomasahle wrote:
| I live with 9 people: One is a musician, one is in politics,
| one works with Greenland tourism, one is a therapist, and so
| on it goes. It's been very giving to have so many different
| approaches around me. I hope I'll be able to continue it once
| I get children.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| I think of this distinction between "culture affiliations" and
| "hunting pack" .. some people really do focus on the hunting
| side, which is hard for people who do not, to understand even
| when it is right in front of them.. as a culture person, I also
| did as this poster did, and that only goes so far.. your life
| changes with the decades
| ryandrake wrote:
| I've ended up with kind of a middle ground: A good number of my
| friends are _ex-_ coworkers. We wouldn't consider each other as
| friends when we were there, for various good reasons, but as
| ex-employees, you share the bond that you all "survived that
| mess."
|
| I believe it is good to build up a strong socialization fabric,
| woven out of people who you don't spend all working-day with.
| We have a "neighborhood dads" group that cuts across
| professions but tend to have age in common. You can have a
| hobby group that cuts across all kinds of demographic and
| political views, but is focused on a single activity. If I lose
| or quit my job, I don't also suddenly lose daily contact with
| my friends. If your only friends are workmates, that's more of
| a single string that can snap rather than a strong woven
| fabric.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| I can definitely relate to being closer to former colleagues
| on the other side of us both working at the same
| company/division/team/whatever. I think it's maybe that thing
| like when you run into someone you went to camp or high
| school or whatever with in a foreign city-- even if you
| weren't that close at the time, it's a jumping off point for
| bypassing that flirtatious pre-friendship stage where you
| don't actually talk about much of anything, and get right to
| the good stuff (and no, not just talking about romantic
| relationships; a lot of friendships start this way too, and
| many never leave it).
| throwaway984393 wrote:
| It was like this for me in the hacker scene. I wanted to learn
| about security, but I didn't want to be around toxic people all
| the time. But at work, the people I hang out with outside the
| office don't talk about tech or work, because we hang out to
| pursue our other interests: music, climbing, auto racing. I'm
| probably the only one bringing up work outside of work...
| ardit33 wrote:
| Counterpoint: I have made some of my best friends through work.
|
| None of us work at the same company, but the friendship endured
| 15 years.
|
| If you are on your mid 20s, my advice is to make as many
| friends as you can and experience as many things as you can.
|
| Start working hard for your career and promotions only on your
| late 20s.
|
| My other advice: Don't take work personal. Just think it as
| long term contract (2-3-4 years) which eventually will end.
| Don't fret or worry too much about the management's decisions.
| It is something you can't control. If a work place is becoming
| not friendly and more toxic, feel free to detach and go to a
| place that fits you better. People they get involved too much
| emotionally to a job have harder time with this.
|
| Being professional means you are there to get a job done (and
| not for validation), and don't make work the center of your
| life. That doesn't mean that you can't make friend there.
| Iefthandrule wrote:
| I have found that for the most part, even if we aren't working
| for our employer, we are still "working" at building the economy
| in other ways: working on the house to increase the value of
| land, brushing up on skills to make us better workers, (sports)
| gambling, monitoring crypto or other assets. The analogy that
| comes to mind is that even when we technically aren't at our
| employer, we are still acting as worker bees for the queen of our
| hive/economy. I wonder if others have felt similarly.
|
| The meals and sleep parts seem more or less like ways to keep us
| effective at the aforementioned work.
| avl999 wrote:
| In my free time I watch sports, some tv shows, read books and
| play golf. I am spending minimal (if any time) on those things
| you mentioned above. It seems like a personal choice to spend
| your free time on things that feel like work.
| feviskus wrote:
| correlation != causation:
|
| segmentors are significantly happier, maybe because they have
| opportunity to hang out with non-work friends. for people who
| just moved across the country to a brand new city, work is their
| primary source of socialisation. they hang out with coworkers
| also because they dont know many other people.
| deelowe wrote:
| Odd stance given how much google has historically encouraged the
| blending of personal and professional lives. Are they reversing
| this position in earnest or simply desperately trying to get back
| to the "campus" mode they pioneered?
| HugoDaniel wrote:
| Stopped reading at "We on Google's People Analytics team..."
| lunchladydoris wrote:
| This is exactly why I am happy to be going back into the office.
| The physical separation really helps and my commute acts as a
| good transition period.
| rodgerd wrote:
| Interesting; for me it's the opposite. I find it too easy to
| linger around the physical workplace and never quite get away
| if I'm not careful.
| helij wrote:
| I have no issues with this but I worked from home before the
| pandemic. Once it's 17:30 or so that's it. Close the computer
| and go my way. No matter how much stuff needs to be done. Once
| it's time it can wait till tomorrow.
| skydhash wrote:
| I get a set schedule from 10am to 5pm. As my desktop is the
| most comfortable setup, I use it after hours too, but I close
| all work related software at 5pm. I use Safari as my personal
| browser and Firefox as my work one (Most of my software are
| pretty utilitarian as I have a ps4 and an Apple TV for
| entertainment purposes). The other things is I don't do work
| outside of my desk.
| thebackup wrote:
| You only work 7h per day minus lunch break? Sounds sweet.
| Do you get paid for full time? I usually work 7am to 4pm
| but lately we have been ordered to work overtime so
| currently I am doing 7am to 5pm and a couple of hours extra
| on Saturdays. Personal life pretty much consists of taking
| care of the kids and maintaining the house.
| micvbang wrote:
| Wow, that sounds absolutely brutal. Where is this? A
| startup in the US?
| t-writescode wrote:
| Most companies will throw out their employees at the drop
| of the hat when they feel like it. Is it really worth
| giving them that much of your time every day? I don't
| think so.
|
| If you keep this up for the next 10 years, what will you
| have to say about yourself and your accomplishments?
| avl999 wrote:
| Quit and find a new job. No tech company worth its salt
| should be counting hours worked for its developers.
| helij wrote:
| edit: I realized that it wasn't me whom you asked the
| question, apologies.
| IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
| This seeems like a sensible analysis of the 9-to-5 office worker
| approach to life.
|
| However. I suspect this does not project well on the lives of
| entrepreneurs and self-directed workers.
|
| For example, I believe if you were to include on this survey non
| google staffers, like entrepreneur farmers, merchants,
| mercenaries, i.e. roles of independent, founder devs, and any
| self-directed entrepreneurs that live their profession 24/7, i
| suspect you'd find that they are far happier than the rest of the
| sample set.
|
| There is nothing wrong with overlap of work and play, if work IS
| play and you enjoy it. The vast majority of entrepreneurs do
| because as owners they can do their job as they see fit.
|
| Anecdotally, i see this evidenced quite often when i see
| entrepreneurs retire due to external pressures: once founders
| give up their raison d'etre, their health decline is fast and
| dramatic.
| pm90 wrote:
| Ownership changes your approach to work. It's no longer
| somebody else's system/product/company, it's _yours_, your
| creation, your baby.
| wffurr wrote:
| Needs (2016) in the title.
| civilized wrote:
| The analysis here is very superficial. No evidence is provided
| that trying to enforce a work-life barrier would make those who
| don't currently enforce one happier. The drivers of being a
| segmentor or an integrator could be a combination of personality
| traits and how demanding a person's manager is, rather than
| something someone could simply choose to change and expect
| benefits.
| nawgz wrote:
| It seems a little facile to argue a person can't change their
| approach to work. It's not like we are creatures of pure
| instinct, and if your professional knowledge job isn't a place
| you consciously operate I don't know where such a thing would
| occur.
| noirbot wrote:
| But isn't the question also "will your
| team/manager/obligations allow you to change your approach?"
| Or, if you want to have more integration with your team, how
| does that work if they live in another country/state, or
| simply have very different interests?
| civilized wrote:
| Let me clarify. Yes, you can change, but the question of
| whether this is likely to be beneficial is not answered by
| this data.
| nend wrote:
| It'd be nice if they had defined what it means to separate
| personal and work lives.
|
| Like, don't check email after work hours? Or, don't be personal
| friends with coworkers? Or don't discuss personal plans during
| work small talk?
|
| There's a lot of different ways to "separate personal and work
| lives", and there's a lot of different interpretations between
| how blurry that line can be before you have a separation or don't
| have separation.
| cbhl wrote:
| I believe that "there is a clear boundary between my career and
| my non-work roles" was literally the prompt text, where folks
| rated it on a scale from "Strongly Disagree" to "Strongly
| Agree".
|
| At Google's scale, individuals have different preferences for
| all of these things. Some people don't want to read email after
| they leave the office at 5pm. Other people leave at 3pm to pick
| up kids, but sign back on from 7pm to 11pm to address stuff.
| Others will work whatever hours M-F but won't respond to emails
| on the weekend. Someone else works with a team across an ocean,
| and so they check email Sunday through Thursdays or Tuesday
| through Saturday. It's not one size fits all; it's about
| creating a work environment where folks feel comfortable
| talking about enabling flexibility without creating
| expectations of being always-on.
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