[HN Gopher] The intellectual incoherence of cryptoassets
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The intellectual incoherence of cryptoassets
        
       Author : matthewsinclair
       Score  : 60 points
       Date   : 2021-11-07 17:42 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.stephendiehl.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.stephendiehl.com)
        
       | cinntaile wrote:
       | If anyone wants to read his other crypto pieces, here's all of
       | them from this year. If you want even more, just check out his
       | twitter.
       | 
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-scams.html
       | 
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/destroy-bitcoin.html
       | 
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/non-innovation.html
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/ransomware.html
       | 
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/banbitcoin.html
       | 
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/ponzi.html
       | 
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/chernobyl.html
       | 
       | https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/gamestop.html
       | 
       | https://mobile.twitter.com/smdiehl
        
         | louwrentius wrote:
         | He is on a mission and I support it fully. When the music
         | stops, so many people will get seriously hurt financially.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | politician wrote:
       | What people don't understand, even intellectuals like the author,
       | is that money transmission is heavily regulated in the United
       | States. This fact is why cryptocurrencies have such a seemingly
       | difficult time finding grounding to the marketplace. It's not
       | transaction times or energy usage. It's the BSA Travel Rule, it's
       | KYC, AML, OFAC, and a regulatory minefield designed to maximize
       | the government's ability to track and curtail financial flows.
        
         | civilized wrote:
         | If crypto's only advantage over the traditional finance sector
         | is doing an end-run around regulations, it's no surprise that
         | this advantage won't be sustainable.
        
         | abeppu wrote:
         | > This fact is why cryptocurrencies have such a seemingly
         | difficult time finding grounding to the marketplace. It's not
         | transaction times or energy usage.
         | 
         | Don't you think it's overly simplistic to claim there's only
         | one reason? Transaction times (or ETH gas costs or whatever)
         | have made them infeasible to use in a bunch of cases.
         | 
         | But isn't part of it also that every fiat currency has a baked
         | in demand, in that if you don't pay your taxes in that currency
         | you go to jail? As a US citizen, even if every business I
         | frequent accepted BTC, I would still need USD. Using
         | cryptocurrencies by contrast is entirely optional. And to the
         | degree that you believe in the usefulness of cryptocurrencies,
         | would you really spend it on a regular basis?
        
         | lwansbrough wrote:
         | Uhh, right? The FBI isn't going to suddenly give up on fraud
         | investigations and the IRS isn't going to disappear if Bitcoin
         | were to replace USD. You still have to follow the laws or you
         | go to jail.
        
       | scrubs wrote:
       | Consider: what would the prevailing interest in crypto be --
       | think of the US Gemini exchange for example -- if at the end of
       | they day Gemini couldn't extract US dollars from it. I don't
       | think Gemini would be a going concern. Therein is incoherence:
       | all the tap dancing and hand waving by crypto adherents is undone
       | without the ability to extract fiat currency. I think that says a
       | lot.
        
         | sparkie wrote:
         | There's a lot of noise which can lead to people completely
         | missing the signal.
         | 
         | Speculation on "crypto" coins and fiat gainz is the noise. The
         | KYC exchanges are the noise. Smart contracts are noise. NFTs
         | are noise.
         | 
         | Bitcoiners are not betting on getting fiat dollars out of their
         | bitcoin. They are betting on completely replacing easy monies
         | with money that cannot be intentionally debased. They will
         | never sell their bitcoin for fiat currency, and you would have
         | to prise their hardware wallets from the dead cold hands, only
         | to find you don't have the correct passphrase to unlock it.
         | 
         | It isn't solely about wealth. For many, it's almost a religious
         | pursuit. The goal is not only to be better off financially
         | yourself, but to make your fellow man better off by having
         | money which is resistant to multiple forms of theft.
         | 
         | Without an understanding of history and the motivation for
         | saving, it probably just looks like a bunch of gambling.
         | 
         | The noise doesn't matter. Bitcoiners will continue to save
         | despite it. New users will move their savings to bitcoin to
         | avoid inflation (aka daylight robbery). The feedback cycle
         | cannot be stopped. You can only remain ignorant and miss the
         | opportunity to acquire cheap sats.
        
           | qeternity wrote:
           | > It isn't solely about wealth. For many, it's almost a
           | religious pursuit.
           | 
           | Ok, hot take. Let's see where this goes.
           | 
           | > The goal is not only to be better off financially yourself,
           | but to make your fellow man better off by having money which
           | is resistant to multiple forms of theft.
           | 
           | Oh, ok, so it is all about wealth.
        
       | louwrentius wrote:
       | I am afraid that too many of the HN visitors have a stake in
       | crypto and may downvote/ flag articles that may hurt their bottom
       | line.
       | 
       | In some sense it is funny that those are the same people that
       | rave about perceived anti-censorship properties of crypto.
        
         | ur-whale wrote:
         | > may downvote/ flag articles that may hurt their bottom line.
         | 
         | No such thing as bad publicity, or so they say.
        
         | carlosdp wrote:
         | There are plenty of articles every day talking about how crypto
         | is a scam or w/e. Anyone that's worried about one more on the
         | pile is being irrational.
         | 
         | No amount blog articles is going to materially impact the long-
         | term outlook of web3/crypto projects that aren't the actual
         | scams/cash-grabs. =)
        
       | sparkie wrote:
       | > " If you sell your crypto and make a profit in dollars, it's
       | only because someone else bought it at a higher price than you
       | did."
       | 
       | Note: Making a profit in dollars does not necessarily imply
       | making an increase in purchasing power. If you profit ~5% in
       | dollars, you've still lost ~10% in purchasing power due to
       | inflation.
       | 
       | Lesson: Don't save in dollars. Find something which can't be
       | deliberately debased by policymakers.
        
       | arisAlexis wrote:
       | Imo this line of thinking is flawed:
       | 
       | It's not X, it's not Y therefore it must be Q. It can also be a
       | different asset class, a new one. Keeping an open mind is
       | paramount in the super fast tech lane.
        
       | 323 wrote:
       | A lot of weak arguments, but the author manages to even
       | contradict himself:
       | 
       | > This is strictly inferior than assets like stocks which either
       | pay dividends from their revenue, _buy back their own stock_ , or
       | have mergers and acquisition events
       | 
       | > grow the pool of greater fools to buy the token so that early
       | token holders can be paid out by later token holders
       | 
       | According to him, it's ok for a company to buy back it's own
       | stock, thus giving it value, but not ok if a later token holder
       | buys crypto from you, which is exactly the same thing.
       | 
       | > Zinc is a commodity because it's a stable element at room
       | temperature with 30 electrons and it's shell configuration makes
       | it useful in tools and conducting electricity, as a commodity it
       | does not depend on a narrative or shared collective delusion to
       | give rise to this utility.
       | 
       | Author should open a Zinc price chart, and zoom in on 2005-2009,
       | when Zinc prices quadrupled, and then crashed back to earth,
       | together with other commodities in that commodity bubble. Totally
       | not a collective delusion and financial speculation back then.
       | 
       | https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/zinc
       | 
       | Also, tulips and beanie babies, really? Are we still beating this
       | dead horse?
        
         | normalman wrote:
         | I noticed an apparent contradiction, between these two
         | statements.
         | 
         | > There can be no separation of money and state, because the
         | state is the only party that could issue money almost by
         | definition. <
         | 
         | Here, he attributes value, only if it is established via
         | government backing of the asset, which is currency.
         | 
         | > Securities are effectively a collective fiction, they're a
         | financial product that exists within a legal framework about a
         | contract that gives buyers and sellers legal rights to
         | cashflows of a common enterprise. <
         | 
         | Here, he attributes fictional value or no intrinsic value,
         | because the government establishes the use of the asset class,
         | supposedly only by backing the asset, which is securities.
         | 
         | In both cases, he treats whether or not the asset has value, as
         | depending on government backing. In one case, he gives value to
         | the asset, only because of government backing. In the latter
         | case the asset is treated as being deprived of having any real
         | value, because it's ability to be used as an asset, exists only
         | by being government backed.
         | 
         | Both of these claims are made by handling them as being true
         | "by definition". When claims are made "by definition", there is
         | no proof needed, or given. At least within these true "by
         | definition" statements themselves, there is no proof given.
         | 
         | So this begs the questions, "what, if anything, is the real
         | value of the assets, and why?". If you take away the assumed
         | worth or worthlessness of government backed assets, then those
         | questions still need to be answered.
         | 
         | There is another word for when something is treated as being
         | true "by definition". That word is "assumption". Until he
         | provides better reasons for his rejection of crypto assets, as
         | having any real and lasting value, I will have to reject his
         | view, at least as it is explained in this article.
         | 
         | Not that this alone would flip me to crypto. The questions
         | assumed to be answered, in this article, still need to be
         | answered.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | Zoo3y wrote:
       | >And finally there's the claim that crypto assets are like art.
       | Essentially Satoshi's whitepaper is a piece of performance art
       | split into 21 million pieces as a parody of hypercapitalism or to
       | make a political statement about anarcho-capitalism.
       | 
       | Isn't this a misunderstanding on the author's part? The claim
       | that some crypto assets are treated as 'art' is not as a
       | performance piece of Satoshi's work, but in form of NFTs on
       | OpenSea (as an example) that utilize Ethereum as the exchange
       | platform.
        
       | abeppu wrote:
       | I think more than "intellectual incoherence", as with everything,
       | differing views about crypto come down to differing values.
       | 
       | > The actual desirable property of a currency is one with a
       | variable supply which a central bank can control to target a
       | specific low inflation rate by measuring the purchasing power of
       | the currency with respective to the domestic costs of goods.
       | 
       | Desirable for who? I think this is desirable for a _state_ which
       | seeks to have a growing and stable economy. That can differ
       | meaningfully from what is desirable for a given large
       | account/wallet holder.
       | 
       | > The value of everyday things like wheat, metals,
       | semiconductors, and even synthetic products like stocks, interest
       | rate swaps and bonds are well understood. We have rational
       | valuation models for these products and there's a market that
       | purchases these products because of their intrinsic value or
       | exposure they bring to collective human economic activity.
       | 
       | I.e. he adopts the basic assumption that value is defined by how
       | something can be used. That's often a useful definition, but as
       | the 'art' section indicates, it's not comprehensive, and it
       | doesn't acknowledge that the value of those uses ultimately
       | bottoms out at human preferences (e.g. zinc is used in making
       | electronics, but we assign a value to electronics because they
       | facilitate lots of other things that we value).
       | 
       | The people he's criticizing seem to define value as what someone
       | will pay for something, which may be based on just rarity.
       | Certainly gold, silver, and jewels were all highly valued before
       | we had industrial processes that specifically used them.
       | 
       | > Setting all these models aside, there are two far more coherent
       | perspectives on the crypto assets that have far more explanatory
       | power for the behavior we see. Crypto assets are the synthesis of
       | a speculative mania and a financial scam built around an opaque
       | technology, phoney populism, with a tolerance for intellectual
       | incoherence at its core.
       | 
       | "Mania", "scam", and "phoney populism" are at emotionally charged
       | terms that weren't selected for their "explanatory power."
       | 
       | One can have a view of crypto which is intellectually coherent,
       | but still worth criticizing. Its claims are something like:
       | 
       | - something is worth what people will pay for it; here's a thing
       | that people will pay for.
       | 
       | - as with other financial and investing decisions, individuals
       | make choices around what serves them, not what serves society as
       | a whole. Expecting otherwise is unrealistic.
       | 
       | - the marketing for many products is not intended to give
       | purchasers a full understanding of what they're buying and how it
       | works. If that were a requirement, no complex technical
       | innovation could be marketed and sold. How many people understand
       | the working mechanisms of both a computer chip and a prescription
       | drug?
       | 
       | - as with many other industries, crypto mining expends energy to
       | produce something of value, and benefits from a lack of effective
       | taxes on the CO2 emitted. If we're gonna appropriately price
       | carbon, just do it but don't preach at cherry-picked industries.
       | 
       | The criticism should recognize that these characteristics aren't
       | unique to crypto; they're totally of a piece with real estate
       | speculation, complex and opaque financial instruments, and a
       | world economy that built itself around extractive industries. If
       | you want a society where people or organizations receive value
       | commensurate with _doing_ something useful rather than just
       | owning stuff, where forthrightness is present in financial
       | products, and where economic activity isn't based on
       | environmentally unsustainable practices ... you haven't been
       | living in that society for a long time and you should rail
       | against something bigger than crypto.
        
       | SubiculumCode wrote:
       | The author makes claims about hundreds of different assets
       | without actual investigation, citation, or even reference to the
       | particular use-cases, business models, or technologies of
       | individual assets, and naturally, the author arrives at her
       | (probably) preordained conclusion. If you want to actually
       | investigate whether the crypto-space is viable, valuable, or
       | useful, then do so, with evidence and specific examples, counter-
       | examples. As it is, the author appears to exercise a sort-of
       | pseudo analysis with intellectual pretensions that only a fool
       | would base their investments upon.
        
         | louwrentius wrote:
         | Name one.
        
           | SubiculumCode wrote:
           | That is on the author who was making a thesis about their
           | intellectual incoherence as an asset.
           | 
           | But if you are asking me, I'd bring up several:
           | 
           | 1. Vechain: https://www.vechain.org/ A blockchain focused on
           | supply chain transparency and authentication. 2. Theta:
           | https://www.thetatoken.org/ A blockchain from the co-founder
           | of youtube that seeks to increase performance, lower costs,
           | and decentralize video streaming of ultra-ultra high
           | definition content. 3. Oracles like Chainlink:
           | https://chain.link/ Use cases of crypto increase the more
           | that real-world data can be linked to blockchain contracts.
        
             | louwrentius wrote:
             | You don't explain why I should trust this over a regular
             | boring SQL database. Let alone exactly what the actual
             | problem is that is addressed here.
             | 
             | "Supply chain transparency", sounds fancy though.
             | 
             | The problem is that the data must come from somewhere and
             | blockchain can't guarantee that the data is valid, only
             | that it hasn't been tampered with. We can assure that with
             | less energy intensive solutions, no blockchain stuff
             | needed.
             | 
             | And we know how well smart contracts (code is law) are
             | doing.
             | 
             | Trust can never be replaced with technology. Trustless is
             | bullshit.
        
               | SubiculumCode wrote:
               | You hadn't asked. But since you do now: Using Vechain as
               | an example: Immutability is the difference and it's what
               | matters the most when building parts for products because
               | it provides an unchangeable audit trail verifying the
               | quality/parts of a product. But don't get me wrong, there
               | may be better centralized SQL solutions, but the market
               | will decide, won't it.
        
               | louwrentius wrote:
               | The marked may be full of idiots, I don't care.
               | 
               | It's the concept that is ridiculous, a solution in search
               | of a problem.
        
               | SubiculumCode wrote:
               | Over 30 companies within the Fortune 500 have live
               | solutions running on VeChain including Walmart, BMW,
               | LVMH, Renault, Deloitte, and PwC. They are obviously
               | interested enough to to examine costs and benefits of the
               | system.
        
               | ac29 wrote:
               | > it provides an unchangeable audit trail verifying the
               | quality/parts of a product
               | 
               | How? How does the blockchain verify, for example, that
               | the electronic parts used to build my widget aren't
               | inferior quality counterfeits with lower lifespans?
        
               | SubiculumCode wrote:
               | Through a nfc chip tagging scheme.
               | 
               | https://www.vechain.com/solution/retail
               | https://destift.nl/official-vechain-nfc-chip-label/
        
               | acdha wrote:
               | In other words, it doesn't. The real work is being done
               | by the trusted auditors who verify that the NFC tags are
               | legitimate, have been attached to a legitimate product,
               | and remained there all the way to the consumer. If you
               | don't have that, you're still vulnerable to all of the
               | common attacks businesses have been fighting for aeons;
               | if you do, you don't need a blockchain.
        
       | golemotron wrote:
       | The hyper-rationalistic world view of this article is striking.
       | Crypto, as an asset class, is easy to understand. It has the same
       | basis as collectables or art: human mimetics, desire and
       | scarcity. If you look for "intrinsic value" you miss a lot of
       | human motivation.
        
         | ur-whale wrote:
         | > The hyper-rationalistic world view of this article
         | 
         | The author is anything but rational about crypto.
         | 
         | He actually is fanatically against it to the point where I'm
         | thinking we can consider ourselves lucky he didn't chose to
         | fixate on anything religion-related instead.
         | 
         | Which is not surprising if you read anything else he has
         | written (like on FP stuff): the guy simply does not have the
         | mechanisms/wires for nuanced opinions in his brain.
         | 
         | What would be interesting is figuring out the actual _why_ he
         | developed such a deep hatred of cryptos.
         | 
         | It's probably buried somewhere in the stuff he's been spewing
         | over the years, but to find it, you'd have to read a lot of it,
         | and my limit when I read his prose is around 5mn.
         | 
         | If anyone happens to land on the relevant nugget, please post
         | it here.
        
         | acdha wrote:
         | Describing it as being like art is the third attempt to rebrand
         | after failing to be usable as a currency or store of value but
         | it's even harder to buy that sales pitch because there is no
         | inherent desirability to random hashes and there's no effective
         | scarcity when everyone can create or fork a chain rather than
         | pay a premium for other people's hashes.
        
         | dsizzle wrote:
         | He addressed the art "narrative"-- and dismissed that basis
         | because cryptocurrencies "aren't being discussed or valued in
         | terms of this model." I think he has a point. He doesn't
         | discuss NFTs though, which seems pretty directly related to
         | art.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | gregjor wrote:
       | Interesting that the negative comments so far consist entirely of
       | _ad hominem_ attacks on the author, arguments for _blockchain_
       | (which the article doesn't mention once), examples of fraud and
       | bubbles in other contexts (irrelevant -- no one says crypto is
       | the _only_ Ponzi or bubble), and libertarian attacks on fiat
       | currency and government control of currency that don't address
       | the utility of crypto.
       | 
       | PayPal and Stripe and other financial players haven't adopted
       | crypto. They have inserted themselves as intermediaries, taking a
       | cut at no risk to themselves, and with no commitment to moving
       | from dollars to crypto. They are in the same position as every
       | grocery store and gas station selling Beanie Babies 20 years ago:
       | offering what people will buy to make a profit (in dollars).
        
       | cryptica wrote:
       | > As we know from the history every of every other speculative
       | mania, popular delusions based on the madness of crowds cannot
       | sustain themselves indefinitely.
       | 
       | Madness such as governments printing trillions of dollars of fiat
       | to artificially prop up the stock market and in the process
       | dilute the salaries of the world's entire productive workforce
       | while rewarding incompetent executives by pumping up their stock
       | prices? I agree, such popular delusions based on the madness of
       | crowds cannot be sustained. Not to mention the ridiculous, over-
       | sized, multi-billion dollar government contracts which are
       | repeatedly handed out to big corporations and which add no value
       | at all to society (how many trillions did the government waste on
       | Afghanistan again? How many billions did they then award to
       | Microsoft to build military VR gizmos?)... And what about the
       | huge superannuation/401K funds which invest other people's
       | retirement savings, without their explicit approval, into
       | inefficient, frothy, zombie corporations (run by their friends)
       | which are going to collapse once people actually start retiring
       | and start cashing out their pensions in mass... And the
       | government will then print more money to (yet again) bail them
       | out and keep screwing over the average salary earner and
       | taxpayer. That's why we need cryptocurrency.
       | 
       | If you think cryptocurrency is mad, if you think Dogecoin and
       | SHIBA INU coins are mad, you don't understand the fiat monetary
       | system.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | wallacoloo wrote:
       | I appreciate the author sharing his views, especially because he
       | does a good job of distilling them. If cryptocurrencies are truly
       | novel, however, it's not clear that one _should_ be able to draw
       | a direct analogy to an existing product. That they don 't 100%
       | resemble money, or commodities, or stock, or art, isn't
       | _necessarily_ a problem.
       | 
       | My argument for owning Eth is that it's like buying real estate
       | (yes, I'm making _another_ loose analogy). Why does a person
       | invest in land? Because they expect something to flourish in the
       | vicinity of their land, and they 'll be able to capture some of
       | that increased productivity in the form of rent (or
       | appreciation).
       | 
       | Ethereum is a programmable ledger, and Eth is its unit of
       | capital. A programmable ledger is a tool that can be used to
       | _create_ things like a money supply the author describes. The
       | next question here is  "why would someone prefer to use an
       | analogous system created on Ethereum over whatever exists today"
       | and that answer can be some combination of transparency,
       | usability, and legitimacy. If we want something like the elastic-
       | supply currency the author describes, we can create one for
       | ourselves. We can do so without providing limitless power to a
       | centralized authority (i.e. the Fed). To some, the resulting
       | currency will be more legitimate as a result. (checkout Rai or
       | Liquity for examples of elastic/"algorithmic" stablecoins on
       | Ethereum).
       | 
       | In this view, today's value of Eth is largely speculative. On the
       | other hand, this gives a way to fund development. New protocols
       | like the ones I mentioned are able to capture the value they
       | create only because there's already so much $ in this ecosystem,
       | and that money's eager to pay a 0.1% fee for the benefit of this
       | new product.
       | 
       | There's a lot of circular activity going on, sure. Deflationary
       | rewards, leverage, etc. If you haven't seen an 80% drop in crypto
       | yet, be ready for it ( _seriously_ ). But as long as the influx
       | in capital facilitates some level of actual new products -- as it
       | _does_ appear to me to be doing -- then what really is the issue
       | here? Maybe we can be satisfied in viewing it as a rather
       | complicated machine for capital allocation? My biggest worry is
       | that impending 80% drop: crypto is notorious for its volatility,
       | but still each bull run draws in newcomers who think we 're past
       | all the drops and find themselves surprised when they lose 80%.
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | Speculation and Investment are similar but different.
        
       | jacquesm wrote:
       | The thing that I really don't get about all the crypto promotors
       | and the nay-sayers is why they don't even try to determine and
       | admit their biases before writing stuff like this.
       | 
       | Talk about 'intellectual incoherence'.
        
         | dsizzle wrote:
         | What sort of biases are relevant that you can't infer from the
         | article?
        
           | sparkie wrote:
           | Paragraphs 4 and 5 are wholly biased opinions.
           | 
           | Author seems to have absolute faith in policymakers to do the
           | correct thing, and has a cartoon-like assumption about people
           | only hoarding money.
        
             | troc wrote:
             | That is because somehow it is OK for the state to have no
             | say in which god to believe in, yet for Dahl it is OK for
             | the state to say what money to believe in.
        
             | dsizzle wrote:
             | So it seemed you inferred his biases just fine? (I
             | certainly wasn't suggesting this was a neutral article on
             | crypto!)
             | 
             | Do you think it would have helped for him to explicitly lay
             | out his worldview or whatever, like the person I responded
             | to seemed to think?
        
               | sparkie wrote:
               | He does a good enough job laying his views it out in the
               | article.
               | 
               | > misreadings of basic economics
               | 
               | Willing to bet he has never read Basic Economics[1]. If
               | he had, he would know that several of the assumptions he
               | makes in this text are fallacies. Of course, the author
               | does not mean the work of Sowell when he says "basic
               | economics," he means "Keynesian Economics 101 as taught
               | at your local academy."
               | 
               | > The actual desirable property of a currency is one...
               | 
               | Desirable to who? Is it really desirable for savers to
               | have their money debased?
               | 
               | The author subtly admits he is a collectivist, and does
               | not care for the individualist perspective.
               | 
               | When it comes to money and value though, all transactions
               | are performed by individuals of their own volition,
               | unless otherwise coerced. An economy is an emergent
               | property of the individuals. Making decisions about
               | transactions 'for the sake of the collective' is a luxury
               | of the already wealthy (and it is more virtue-signalling
               | than actually benefiting of the collective).
               | 
               | > "with a variable supply which a central bank can
               | control to target a specific low inflation rate by
               | measuring the purchasing power of the currency with
               | respective to the domestic costs of goods."
               | 
               | Author assumes it is even possible to target a specific
               | rate of inflation and to even measure if that target is
               | met, and whether meeting any target is a result of any
               | interventions. Of course this is not possible because
               | there are far too many variables. Mises and Hayek have
               | both written in depth about the economic calculation
               | problem[2]. Prices are the most efficient method for
               | individuals to determine their economic activity - not
               | central planning.
               | 
               | > "A controlled inflationary currency with
               | interventionist monetary controls encourages economic
               | growth and stability over time."
               | 
               | May or may not be true. I won't bother arguing with
               | whether or not I think that is the case, but will note
               | that the author assumes that the interventionist controls
               | will be utilized correctly to the benefit of all. This
               | goes back again to assuming that everyone has the same
               | goals (collectivism), but more worryingly, there are some
               | clear examples of the interventionists creating
               | immeasurable struggle for millions of people. Consider
               | Venezuela, or Zimbabwe. Moving zeroes does not create
               | wealth.
               | 
               | > "A national currency's value is derived from the
               | requirement to pay taxes in the currency ...
               | 
               | Absolutely false. Won't explain.
               | 
               | > "However deflationary currencies do nothing but
               | encourage hording
               | 
               | True, when competing currencies are present. People will
               | hoard the good money and trade the bad money.
               | 
               | Eventually, people will not accept the bad money for
               | payment of goods and services. They must spend the good
               | money to meet their needs. People offering services will
               | find ways to avoid providing those services to people
               | wishing to pay only with the bad money, or will offer
               | discounts to people paying with the good money.
               | 
               | > ... untethered to the cost of goods ...
               | 
               | The fiat money clearly can't be tethered to the cost of
               | goods because prices keep increasing, almost without
               | fail. The only exceptions are in highly deflationary
               | markets where technological innovation outpaces
               | inflation.
               | 
               | If the price of X increases by 5% in one year, does this
               | tell me that the product became more valuable or scarce,
               | or does it tell me that the money became worth less?
               | 
               | Fiat money can't tell you this. It is impossible to
               | separate one from the other because the intervention
               | influences prices and the prices then influence
               | intervention. This "stability" is like a cat chasing its
               | own tail. It is short-lived stability.
               | 
               | Historically there has never been a "reference" commodity
               | which could be used to determine if the currency is
               | losing value or if other goods are increasing in value
               | over time. The fiat money is typically used as the
               | reference because it doesn't fluctuate much over short
               | periods of time (assuming there no economic catastrophes,
               | which is a big assumption in itself). The author admits
               | he has a high time-preference and he seems unwilling to
               | discuss the long-term effects, such as that on pensions
               | and savings.
               | 
               | A dollar today is 0.7 dollars in 5 years.
               | 
               | 1/21M is still 1/21M in 5 years. This is the real
               | stability we want if our goal is to measure how prices
               | change over time. A fixed scale.
               | 
               | > "As we see in crypto, they exhibit extremely volatility
               | since no economic activity can be denominated in terms of
               | them. One could never price a thirty year mortgage in
               | bitcoin because its volatility makes it completely
               | unpredictable and no sensible bank could calculate the
               | risk of covering that debt.
               | 
               | Here the author shows his lack of imagination. Sure it is
               | the case that the bitcoin/fiat exchange rates are
               | volatile now, but how does that change if bitcoin
               | adoption continues to grow? What happens if bitcoin
               | adoption reaches 50%, and has equal market share as fiat
               | money? Does the exchange rate then tell you how volatile
               | bitcoin is, or how volatile dollars are?
               | 
               | In fact, the dollar has lost 99% of its value against
               | bitcoin in one decade[4]. Talk about volatility!
               | 
               | > There can be no separation of money and state, because
               | the state is the only party that could issue money almost
               | by definition.
               | 
               | Wrong again.
               | 
               | Money is an emergent property of people selecting the
               | most saleable commodity, in their own subjective opinion,
               | to conduct trade[3].
               | 
               | The State can only intimidate and coerce through
               | violence. When given free choice, people will act in
               | their best self-interest, which is probably counter to
               | the interests of the central bank and the cronies
               | surrounding it.
               | 
               | [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Economics
               | 
               | [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_pr
               | oblem
               | 
               | [3]:https://mises.org/library/origins-money-0
               | 
               | [4]:https://usdsat.com/
        
         | ur-whale wrote:
         | :)
         | 
         | What are _your_ biases, then, dear Jacques?
        
           | jacquesm wrote:
           | That I don't care either way, just watching this whole crypto
           | thing from the sidelines. It's always been interesting to me,
           | ever since I noticed DigiCash in the roaring 90's.
        
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