[HN Gopher] Mandate is hereby stayed pending further action by t...
___________________________________________________________________
Mandate is hereby stayed pending further action by this court [pdf]
Author : SQL2219
Score : 77 points
Date : 2021-11-06 19:01 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ca5.uscourts.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ca5.uscourts.gov)
| TheDesolate0 wrote:
| Fucking traitorous maga judges.
| TheDesolate0 wrote:
| Fucking traitorous maga judges!
| rbobby wrote:
| If the pandemic has taught me anything, it's that the strangest
| thing about a zombie outbreak will be the zombie supporters.
| disambiguation wrote:
| The least strange thing is that it would also originate in a
| government lab
| dfilppi wrote:
| Its taught me how people freely lay down their freedom.
| influx wrote:
| I'm vaccinated, but I'm also glad that Trump couldn't have
| written an Executive Order to inject the population with
| bleach. There does need to be some limits on what the executive
| can do, that said, Congress should just pass a law if that's
| the right thing to do.
| [deleted]
| mrfusion wrote:
| Here's what I've learned (thanks Zuby)
|
| Most people would rather be in the majority, than be right.
|
| At least 20% of the population has strong authoritarian
| tendencies, which will emerge under the right conditions.
|
| Fear of death is only rivalled by the fear of social
| disapproval. The latter could be stronger.
|
| Propaganda is just as effective in the modern day as it was 100
| years ago. Access to limitless information has not made the
| average person any wiser.
|
| Source:
| https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1412012561164390403.html
| slg wrote:
| These are phrased well because for most of them people are
| going to think "yeah, the other side is crazy". Only a few of
| that full thread reveal Zuby's bias.
| glogla wrote:
| Really? Interesting perspective.
|
| For me, it is very obvious which side this person is on
| (both the twitterer and HN poster) based on keyword like
| "authoritarian" and "propaganda" and "fear of death", not
| to mention "people have science as religion".
| slg wrote:
| Perspective from the right:
|
| - Authoritarianism - The left is authoritarian because
| they are for mandates and lockdowns.
|
| - Propaganda - The mainstream media and the CDC have
| continually overexaggerated the threat of COVID.
|
| - Fear of death - People on the left only cares about
| virtual signaling and not the threat to their personal
| safety that comes with giving up freedom.
|
| Perspective from the left:
|
| - Authoritarianism - The Trump admin lied to us about the
| threat of COVID, tried to cover up their mismanagement of
| the pandemic, restricted people's individual freedom to
| prioritize their health by forcing people back to work.
| Also there is the whole trying to invalidate fair
| elections thing.
|
| - Propaganda - Fox News and Republicans have continually
| downplayed the threat of COVID and the effectiveness of
| the vaccine.
|
| - Fear of death - The people on the right would rather
| follow the leaders of their party than protect their own
| safety.
|
| The one about science being religion is one of the few
| that reveals Zuby's bias.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| This is the same frustrating nonsense I see over and over.
| And it's frustrating specifically _because_ many of his
| points I can agree with (somewhat), but shit like this
| _always_ devolves into "the evil government and media is
| trying to keep you down".
|
| I mean look at all the talk of "authoritarianism" and "people
| enjoy being subjugated". I can only assume he's talking about
| things like mask and vaccine mandates. Which is so fucking
| bizarre to me because we've had things like seatbelt and
| helmet laws for decades, vaccine mandates ever since I was
| born, and one of _his_ complaints is that "the government
| and media can politicize anything"?? None of this shit used
| to be politicized to anywhere near the degree it is today -
| now even things that have the most mild downsides, yet with
| clear benefits to others, are "the government is out to own
| you". All with the same bullshit tone of "ahh, look at those
| ignorant sheeple"...
| juanani wrote:
| No, the government only listens to those who vote them in.
| No, big corps do not write our laws for us. No, government
| is never wrong and only here for your safety. Carry on
| brave vaccine passport holder.
| hammock wrote:
| >we've had things like seatbelt and helmet laws for decades
|
| Libertarians and other freedom lovers have been fighting,
| arguing against and civilly disobeying those laws,
| vehemently, for as long as they have been in existence.
| Perhaps it didn't get as much play in the media.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| What I learned is that I was giving way too much credits to
| humans than what they deserved.
|
| People I thought were rational just turned complete morons.
|
| My disappointment is high, I'm getting lonelier and lonelier.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > People I thought were rational just turned complete
| morons.
|
| Same. Some of the smartest, most rational people I know
| completely lost their damn minds. Tribalism is more
| important than just about anything, it seems.
| ludocode wrote:
| That thread is anti-mask anti-vaxxer nonsense. He's putting
| "pandemic" and "the science" and "safety" in quotes as though
| they're not real.
|
| He's complaining that people have been conditioned to wear
| masks and take vaccines while ignoring the very good reasons
| for doing so, i.e. preventing each other from dying. He
| believes that anyone who wears a mask is an authoritarian who
| enjoys being subjugated, rather than a compassionate person
| who cares about the health of their community.
|
| That whole thread is insulting. I lean fairly libertarian in
| terms of civil rights, but I still wear a mask and support
| vaccine mandates because the unvaccinated are spreading the
| virus, filling hospitals and killing people.
|
| One of my family members has just been diagnosed with
| prostate cancer. His treatment has been delayed by months
| because the hospitals are full. Almost 80% of those eligible
| are vaccinated in my country, yet over 90% of the people
| taking up ICU beds are unvaccinated COVID patients. It fills
| me with rage to think that he may die because the hospitals
| are overflowing with those who refused to wear masks and
| refused to get vaccinated.
| glogla wrote:
| It's strange that HN is the most antivaxx place on the
| internet that I know. On reddit, antivaxxers are mocked and
| segregated to their own subs. On youtube, the worst
| misinformation is removed (though maybe just from my
| bubble). Twitter and facebook are cesspools as always but I
| don't use those.
|
| So HN is the only place I regularly visit where this
| antivaxx nonsense is taken hold. You see people posting
| seriously about Ivermectin, linking whatever fake websites
| like that "covidmeta" thing, and so on.
|
| Strange.
|
| EDIT: One feature I would love on HN is some way to add
| tags to posters that I see, so I could somehow mark the
| worst offenders in reality-denying and can make sure to
| disregard their opinions in other ways, because their
| brains obviously can process information correctly.
| 015a wrote:
| So, who someone is is more important than what they're
| saying? Isn't that a logical fallacy?
| glogla wrote:
| Depends. In perfectly logical debate, you'd be right. But
| I think real world is more complex.
|
| What if "who someone is" a "someone who is easily
| manipulated and used by bad actors to amplify dangerous
| misinformation"?
|
| Or, someone being American person of color is pretty
| important when they talk about racism in US. As opposed
| to someone, who is not only not a person of color but has
| been to US like once for a week (like me).
|
| Or perhaps more relevantly, what if "who someone is" is
| "a certified medical doctor" as opposed to "someone with
| no experience in medical field who gets their information
| from corporate social network who makes most money when
| people are angry because anger is very good for
| engagement"?
| Johanx64 wrote:
| It's so odd seeing a person wishing for HN to be more
| like reddit.
|
| Redditors are often ridiculed for their low-intelligence
| and cult-like tribal behavior and lack of any ability for
| individual thought or nuance.
|
| Reddit didn't use to be like this in it's early years...
| but those times are long gone.
| mike_d wrote:
| I'd say on average HN readers can avoid COVID by way of
| privilege. They can have food delivered to them, work
| from home, receive necessities from Amazon, etc.
|
| This allows them to disproportionately value individual
| freedoms over the greater good with little to no personal
| risk.
|
| You don't see this level of anti-mask/anti-vaxx nonsense
| on forums for Uber drivers and grocery store workers, for
| example.
| maxerickson wrote:
| So some of the resistance to the vaccines is reactionary,
| following anger from the so-called lockdowns?
|
| That makes an unfortunate amount of sense.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| This is full of hot takes, but it's missing sources and
| examples, so can't be taken as valid observations.
| molbioguy wrote:
| The pandemic has taught me that rational relative risk
| assessment crumbles in the face of personal fear.
| Supermancho wrote:
| people rather fail than change <a conclusion from the british
| doctors study 1951-2001> - chris wilson
|
| https://www.slideshare.net/gvwilson/bits-of-evidence-2338367
|
| This will be taught in every US highschool one day.
| jengler wrote:
| If the pandemic has taught me anything, it's that the strangest
| thing about a zombie outbreak will be the Umbrella Corporation
| supporters. ;)
| rbobby wrote:
| HODL Umbrella?
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Zombie un-lives matter?
| maestroia wrote:
| PT Barnum was an optimist.
| smarx007 wrote:
| Side note: this looks like a very well typeset document. Also,
| seems like the first use of Butterick's fonts [1] by the courts?
|
| [1]: https://practicaltypography.com/mb-fonts.html
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| A lot of larger courts have a proprietary document management
| system that typesets the final documents. And a lot of smaller
| courts use the modern-day WordPerfect suite (with Paradox and
| Perfect Authority) as a sort of home-grown one. It depends a
| lot on the individual court and government.
|
| In this case the metadata just tells us the PDF was generated
| by iText, so it's probably from a Java or .NET DMS the court
| uses. The use of Butterick's Equity suggests it's pretty new
| but I wasn't able to figure out what product they're using.
| maxerickson wrote:
| I used the HN site link (
| https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=uscourts.gov ) to
| quickly grab an older filing from the 5th circuit, which
| shows a similar Adobe PDF Library; modified by iText as the
| Producer, and PDFMaker for Word as the Creator.
|
| https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/17/17-41251-CR0.pd.
| ..
|
| Of course they may have upgraded to something else that shows
| the same producers, but the pattern is still there.
| maxerickson wrote:
| I'm not sure if it was 2013 or 2016, but the type engine in
| Word got a big update.
|
| (It may also be that it works better with PDFMaker, doing
| paragraphs instead of individual words, I've only noticed the
| difference, not figured out the specifics)
| falcolas wrote:
| TL;DR: 5th Court (based out of Texas) issued a stay against the
| OSHA vaccine mandate.
| Animats wrote:
| Until next Tuesday. This is just a normal pretrial motion.
| Meekro wrote:
| Is it ordinary for Federal Judges to speak of "grave statutory
| and constitutional issues"?
| 015a wrote:
| The saddest part of all this is really the destruction of
| centrism. There's a strong amount of nuance lost on both extremes
| in the common centrist opinion that 'the vaccine is good,
| everyone should get the vaccine, public vaccine mandates may be
| premature." Primarily:
|
| 1. It doesn't close the door on private vaccine mandates, which
| while certainly concerning to some on the fringe, aren't as much
| of a hot topic.
|
| 2. It specifically calls out "premature"; one of the strongest
| pro-public vaccine mandate arguments is in their precedence. We
| absolutely do require vaccination in many situations, such as at
| grade schools or going to university. A critical, nuanced
| centrist opinion is simply the sense that these vaccines are
| extremely new; while they have scientifically demonstrated safety
| for the duration of the studies, and more generally perceived
| safety for the duration of their availability, both of these
| timelines pale in comparison to the timeframe many other commonly
| available vaccines have been available for.
|
| 3. Additionally, on the premature angle: We did have three highly
| effective vaccines in the US. This has been more-or-less reduced
| to two (as the J&J's efficacy is in such broad question, combined
| with their production issues, many vaccine sites aren't offering
| it anymore). Public vaccine mandates would in-effect be a public
| backing of a private corporation's revenue; the same people who
| rightly despise America's military-industrial complex aren't
| seeing the incredibly apt correlates to the increasing power of
| the public health-industrial complex.
|
| 4. Finally, on the premature angle: I strongly, in all walks of
| life, take the stance "if a choice isn't obvious, its because you
| don't have enough data". The choice on public vaccine mandates,
| democratically, is undeniably Not Obvious; its obvious to many
| individuals, in both direction, and thus it is not obvious to the
| voting public in aggregate. Thus, doing nothing except gathering
| more data, which our public health institutions are quite great
| at, is the right course. This always crystalizes the correct
| choice.
|
| In short, the issue has become too politicized; I feel the best
| course of action right now is for politicians to step back and
| let our doctors and scientists take the lead. With the increasing
| existence and availability of effective treatment options,
| combined with the increasing pro-vaccine population driving down
| infections, hospitalizations, and death; a public vaccine mandate
| may end up inflaming one side of the political spectrum, and
| hurting our economy by causing significantly increased turnover
| and vacancies in an already difficult climate for businesses,
| unnecessarily.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| The CDC head just testified that the CDC has not studied if
| previous corona infections confer immunity.
|
| She refused to say if CDC staff were returning to work or what
| their vaccination rate was.
|
| Not sure what they do all day. (My understanding is they have
| 3,000 staff.)
| pupdogg wrote:
| Even more interesting is when asked "What percent of CDC
| employees are vaccinated?"...Walensky essentially responded,
| she didn't know. As the primary national tracker of the
| pandemic, you would think CDC would know their numbers
| (especially internal ones) inside out.
|
| Source: https://youtu.be/AXHYgn3g-wQ?t=7715 (time 2:08:35)
| mullingitover wrote:
| They may not have studied it themselves, but others have[1].
|
| > This study found that among Kentucky residents who were
| previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, those who were
| unvaccinated against COVID-19 had significantly higher
| likelihood of reinfection during May and June 2021. This
| finding supports the CDC recommendation that all eligible
| persons be offered COVID-19 vaccination, regardless of previous
| SARS-CoV-2 infection status.
|
| [1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm
| disambiguation wrote:
| Kind of a tangent, but I hate how all these studies have a 6
| month cut off on vaccinated participants
|
| We know the vaccine confers high immunity early on, and then
| wanes.
|
| As opposed to natural immunity which is proving to be more
| robust and long lasting.
|
| I would really like to see if this 2.34x improvement lasts in
| individuals vaccinated 6+ months ago.
| phonypc wrote:
| > _As opposed to natural immunity which is proving to be
| more robust and long lasting._
|
| What are you basing this on? I'm aware of one (unpublished,
| widely criticized) study with something like this
| conclusion that people like to throw around.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Are you referring to the testimony here:
|
| https://thehill.com/video/senate/580032-watch-live-fauci-wal...
|
| More specifically, the exchange ~46 minutes with Burr where she
| discusses how the CDC is studying infection derived immunity?
|
| (I'm not gonna watch the 3 hours to figure out what timestamp
| you are referring to with the vaccination rate)
| throwoutway wrote:
| If the CDC said that, it is just carefully worded ignorance.
| The US' NIH supported a research that confirmed it:
| https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
|
| Just because "we the CDC" didn't fund it doesn't make it any
| less true.
| kronin wrote:
| The study states: "We studied sera from adults (ages 18 to 55
| years) who received two doses of the Moderna mRNA-1273
| vaccine in phase 1 clinical trials (12). The majority of our
| study focused on 14 individuals who received the 250-mg dose,
| although we validated key conclusions with a smaller subset
| of eight trial participants who received the 100-mg dose. The
| sera were collected at 36 and 119 days after the first
| vaccine dose, corresponding to 7 and 90 days after the second
| dose."
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8369496/
|
| Strange that the study would focus on individuals who
| received a 250-mg dose. The adult dose is 100-mg
| (https://reference.medscape.com/drug/mrna-1273-moderna-
| covid-...). Yes, the study states that key findings were
| validated with 8 participants who received the regular
| dosage, but still seems odd to me.
|
| The comparison dataset is explained as: "The convalescent
| plasma samples were characterized in earlier studies (13-16)
| and grouped into an early time point of 15 to 60 days after
| symptom onset and a late time point of 100 to 150 days after
| symptom onset."
|
| So the comparison was between vaccinated individuals, most of
| whom received a higher dose than is being given out, to
| infected individuals, and the time periods don't exactly line
| up. For the vaccinated dataset, the time periods were 7 and
| 90 days after the second dose. For the other dataset, the
| time periods were 15-60 days, and 100-150 days after symptom
| offset.
|
| Deeper into the study, there is also this: "The escape maps
| of the 100-mg cohort resembled those of the 250-mg cohort and
| fell into the 456/484-targeting, core-targeting, or flat
| categories (fig. S6). Although the sample sizes are small,
| and a higher fraction of the 100-mg dose escape maps were
| flat than for the 250-mg cohort (4 of 8 versus 5 of 14,
| respectively), this suggests that 100- and 250-mg doses
| elicit antibody responses similar in the breadth of their
| RBD-binding specificity."
| _kst_ wrote:
| Does "previous corona infections" refer to previous Covid-19
| infections, or previous infections by other corona viruses?
| throwawaysea wrote:
| Reminder that before their hard left turn away from civil
| liberties and towards partisanship, the ACLU was against vaccine
| mandates: https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/aclu-flip-
| flops-...
|
| Another interesting piece of the public conversation around
| mandates is the redefinition of the term vaccine (https://www.mia
| miherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25411126...). The CDC claims
| they redefined it away from the word "immunity" towards the word
| "protection" because no vaccine grants perfect immunity.
| Personally I find that to be a bad answer. By taking a weighty
| word like "vaccine" and redefining it, the expectations of risks
| and benefits the public holds were exploited. For the majority of
| the public, those who are under 50 and healthy, COVID poses
| little risk - it's not much different from a typical seasonal
| flu. Personally I think getting an mRNA vaccine is a reasonable
| low-risk action but the risk of undergoing any medical
| intervention is nonzero, and it is higher for a novel technology.
| I bet that if the COVID vaccines were not called a vaccine,
| people would evaluate the risk reward trade off differently.
| nerdponx wrote:
| > I bet that if the COVID vaccines were not called a vaccine,
| people would evaluate the risk reward trade off differently
|
| Interestingly, one of the entry-level Covid denialist talking
| points is that the vaccine is "classified as experimental gene
| therapy, and not a vaccine".
|
| It's probably not worth spending too much energy seeking logic
| in illogic. I just thought it was interesting and kind of
| ironic in this context.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| I think mandate is too heavy a frame in news reports and here.
|
| The regulation requires a vaccine OR a set weekly testing
| structure. Seems reasonable to me though perhaps a bit broadly
| targeted.
|
| Usually I think OSHA has specific regulations by specific
| industries.
|
| There is a different risk between super tightly packed meat
| plants and Google work from home.
|
| https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2021/11/what-is-the-osha-vacc...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-11-06 23:01 UTC)