[HN Gopher] The tomato was feared in Europe for more than 200 ye...
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The tomato was feared in Europe for more than 200 years (2013)
Author : raldi
Score : 96 points
Date : 2021-11-06 16:11 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
| ksec wrote:
| >Around 1880, with the invention of the pizza in Naples, the
| tomato grew widespread in popularity in Europe.
|
| The most interesting part for me, was that Pizza was _invented_
| in ~ _1900_? That is relatively new.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| The modern idea of pizza, yes. Flat breads with toppings?
| Likely thousands of years old.
| phonypc wrote:
| Eh, the modern-ish notion (tomato sauce and cheese topping) of
| pizza maybe. Topped flatbreads called pizza are much older, and
| topped flatbreads in general are again much older than that.
| silisili wrote:
| If you draw comparisons to say, tortillas(i do), they go way,
| way back, at least 12k years if wiki is to be believed.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Grain that's ground, mixed with water and cooked is
| definitely one of the earliest processed foods humans
| created. Easily 10's of thousands of years old. The entire
| agricultural revolution occurred because humans wanted to
| farm grains; some historians say to make beer, but whether
| beer or bread came first both are connected (both are
| basically just water + grain + yeast + heat).
| irrational wrote:
| Don't forget the salt!
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Do we have archeological records of this prior to
| development of language?
|
| Seems like a fairly complex tech to pass on without some
| fairly involved language?
| phonypc wrote:
| Language, or the beginnings of it, is probably older than
| bread. But bread in its simplest form is not complex at
| all, I feel like you could hypothetically teach it to an
| early hominid without language. Just pound something
| starchy into a paste, maybe add some water and work it
| into a dough and cook it on some rocks.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| I've heard reports of orangutans learning how to fish
| with a spear by observing humans.
|
| I wonder sometimes if we could teach them to make bread
| or baked plantains or something, idk, and then have that
| habit passed on to their offspring.
|
| The sticking point could be fire, seems rather hard to
| make, and even worse - maintain, without all the
| convenient tools we have today.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| We have archaeological records of bread prior to written
| records (archaeologists found a 14k year old fragment of
| bread) but language itself likely developed long, long
| before writing.
| maxlamb wrote:
| It is widely agreed that the development of language goes
| back at least 50k-150k years ago, so way before that time
| period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_language
| dylan604 wrote:
| Just a margin of error of 100k years. Not bad.
| deltron3030 wrote:
| Tomatos were likely introduced to Europeans by the Aztecs in
| the 1500s. Is 300yrs a long time for them becoming a local
| staple in Italy?
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Yes, it's quite recent.
|
| Beyond that it's also quite interesting to think that all
| dishes made with potatoes, tomatoes, chilli peppers, sweet
| corn, cocoa did not exist before the settlement of the Americas
| by Europeans (at least outside of the Americas). This is a
| profound change in diet in Europe and throughout the world.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| I remember an amusing (too me) picture, Pakistanis on a
| tractor in a field of pumpkins.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Are you sure they weren't "lauki" or some local squash?
| bobthepanda wrote:
| What makes it mindblowing to me is imagining Indian or Korean
| food without chilis.
|
| Related fascinating topic: the oldest known cookbook in
| Korean was written by a woman and contains no _gochujang_
| since it was only becoming available while it was written:
| https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/first-korean-cookbook
| mdp2021 wrote:
| The tradition is old, the out of context form is new.
|
| Ancient soldiers (for example) found it practical to use
| flatbread as a dish to eat its topping, then the dish itself.
| The origin of the tradition is in the need for a dish, and in
| the advantage of not wasting the remainders that savour the
| dish itself, when edible.
| jaclaz wrote:
| JFYI, the "official" date is 1889.
|
| It was in occasion of the visit of the King (and Queen) of the
| recently formed Kingdom of Italy to Naples.
|
| The first pizza (pizza Margherita, so later named after the
| name of the Queen) "novelty" was not the tomato in itself, but
| rather the tomato together with mozzarella cheese and basil, as
| symbols of the three colours of the Italian flag, white, red
| and green.
|
| Too bad that it is nothing but a story, pizza, including a
| version with these same toppings existed at least since some
| 100 years before:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_Margherita
|
| though it was not particularly common, because the mozzarella
| cheese was costly even then.
|
| Plainer pizzas (called by different names), with just tomato or
| only garlic and oil were common not only in Naples, with the
| exception of the cheese all ingredients (flour, water, tomato,
| garlic, olive oil) were ubiquitous and cheap not only in
| southern Italy, but all aroud the Mediterranean Sea.
| silverpepsi wrote:
| IMHO the best song to accompany reading this article is my
| favorite Paleo diet song: Megadeth - "Deadly Nightshade"
| echelon_musk wrote:
| In One River by Wade Davis, Tim Plowman is talking about the
| tropane alkaloids present in some of the Solanaceae family and
| relates:
|
| "My grandmother would never eat tomatoes. She said they were the
| devil's fruit, that we only thought they could be eaten, and that
| eventually everyone who ate them would be cursed."
| Agoreddah wrote:
| In 18th century in Astria-Hungary, there were several
| conspiracies about the potatoes as a weapon of rich to poison and
| kill the poor. Funny fact, our ancestors were fighting againts
| potatoes 300years ago and now we celebrate this ingredient in
| national dishes as a cultural heritage.
|
| Btw similar revolts could be found in many government/kingdom
| actions f.e. to fight cholera or plagues of that time. Peasants
| didn't understand the actions and expected bad things to come
| instead.
| dwpdwpdwpdwpdwp wrote:
| Potatoes and Tomatoes are very similar plants. You can graft
| them together and have a living plant that grows tomatoes on
| top and potatoes in the roots.
|
| Potatoes also produce fruits that are similar to cherry
| tomatoes. They taste like gross tomatoes and are indeed
| poisonous in relatively small quantities.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I wonder how long on average something becomes heritage. 100
| years ? is it n generation ? after 5 generation, your
| grandmother's grandmother was born there so you're 99% from her
| culture (all your siblings are, you and their memories are)
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Most recipes have only standardized in the last 100 years or
| so. We didn't have exact temperature controls on ovens or
| stoves until the 1930s, which is a fairly easy way to tell,
| and even cooking units vary across time, place, and even
| household. (How big is a teacup? Depends on your glassware.)
| cm2012 wrote:
| I remember one noble solved this in a clever way. He made it
| illegal for peasants to grow potatoes, and grew them in the his
| royal garden. Then peasants would smuggle them out in the night
| and grow them back home, thinking if it was forbidden it must
| be good.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| https://satwcomic.com/can-t-touch-that
| shrimpx wrote:
| Also feared by Europeans around the same time: bathing.
| cgh wrote:
| This is a common fallacy. Public bathhouses were common in
| medieval Europe, a legacy of Rome, and by the 18th century,
| "therapeutic bathing" was a thing.
| shrimpx wrote:
| There was a dip in bathing and bath houses in the 16-17th
| century due to fear of disease. Lots of aristocrats are well-
| known for avoiding bathing in that period. Louis XIV is
| famous for it.
| DougN7 wrote:
| My friends in Switzerland 30 years ago thought corn was only for
| animals. It took some convincing for them to try American-style
| corn on the cob (which is delicious!)
| MengerSponge wrote:
| Dent corn vs. sweet corn. One of these is good for animals,
| while the other is great with butter.
| el-salvador wrote:
| This happened to me with an older Dutch friend. It took a while
| to figure out why he would never eat corn tortillas or corn
| pupusas while in Central America. It was until some months
| later they told me they considered corn as animal food and
| didn't want to taste it.
| ivnshrv wrote:
| People feared lots of regular food and things that we use today
| so tomato is only one example :)
| darkerside wrote:
| Much better analogy than drugs seems like our fear of things like
| fats in our diet. Regardless, this is pretty fluffy.
| ruforrel wrote:
| Or salt and high blood pressure.
| mrfusion wrote:
| I always found it interesting that squirrels, rabbits, and
| raccoons in my yard avoid eating the tomato's. You'd think it
| would be an easy snack.
| Croftengea wrote:
| Also, "The Poisonous History of Tomatoes":
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beBQgxdu2eY
| markdown wrote:
| 200 years later, not much has changed. Kava is a food consumed
| for thousands of years across the Pacific Islands. It's the
| national drink of Fiji.
|
| Kava is banned in Europe today.
| vmception wrote:
| Ha people thought of them the same as deadly nightshades because
| of how it become poison while reacting with their plates!
|
| Makes me wonder if we can similarly make deadly nightshades
| become edible by neutralizing their toxin before or during
| digestion
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| I wonder how many were touting The Science in order not to eat
| the tomato and have it banned.
| ingenieros wrote:
| Italians will still fear pineapple 200 years from now.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| No wonder, those things are vicious!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfdGlxEsG8
| assbuttbuttass wrote:
| I have heard not to feed tomatoes to your feeder insects because
| tomatoes are poisonous and could kill your reptile. Is that a
| myth as well?
| Tagbert wrote:
| Tomato leaves contain a number of toxic terpenes that are taken
| on by the tomato hornworm. I've heard that dogs will usually
| spit them our but can become ill if they eat too many. Hard to
| know the effect of these terpenes on your reptile, but I would
| not use them as a feed stock.
| adminscoffee wrote:
| i wonder what other plants are that we fear or overlook that are
| edible/medical
| [deleted]
| eliasmacpherson wrote:
| Would be interested to hear anything from people who have
| experienced a food allergy or intolerance towards tomatoes,
| something the NHS seems very skeptical on.
| jjcon wrote:
| I can't eat tomatoes at all - not sure why - I love their
| flavor but shortly after eating them my entire digestive system
| hits the panic button. It doesn't happen with other foods (at
| least those I eat). I tend to just avoid them now.
|
| Edit: Thought I would add, my doc suspects it is an acid-reflux
| response but wasn't sure why it would be isolated to tomatoes.
| eliasmacpherson wrote:
| Have you any allergies? Are there other foods that cause you
| problems?
| jjcon wrote:
| No other foods really, no food allergies to my knowledge. I
| do have minor seasonal allergies to ragweed pollen though.
| kingkawn wrote:
| Do you get similar reactions to other nightshades?
| jjcon wrote:
| Not really, I eat a lots of potatoes and enjoy eggplant now
| and again without issue
| treeman79 wrote:
| Nightshades can be a trigger for autoimmune issues.
|
| I had to give up tomatoes and potatoes
| eliasmacpherson wrote:
| Very interesting.
|
| Without going into too much personal detail if you'd rather
| not, what form did the issues take?
|
| Was your physical or mental wellbeing negatively affected
| until you cut them out? On whose advice did you do this?
|
| Or, was it instead a case where you cut them out, in case a
| hypothetical issue developed?
|
| Also curious to know if you have allergies or other foods
| that disagree... (sorry for being so nosy)
| jjcon wrote:
| Interestingly I don't have issues with other nightshades
| just tomatoes - no autoimmune issues (unless minor seasonal
| allergies count)
| inter_netuser wrote:
| I've heard that about tomatoes, due to histamine/mast cell
| connections.
|
| What's the mechanism with potatoes? They seem like a mostly
| safe food.
| eliasmacpherson wrote:
| https://www.mastzellaktivierung.info/downloads/foodlist/2
| 1_F...
|
| Potatoes are not on the 'Auto Immune Protocol', which I
| haven't looked in to the rationale behind unfortunately
| and I am completely out of my field of expertise. They
| are categorized as nightshades, like tomatoes.
|
| As you can see above, some lists claim potatoes are high
| in histamine. I think that new or green potatoes contain
| (glyco)alkaloids and that the 'eyes' are also not to be
| eaten. Sweet potato is said to be fine.
| [deleted]
| freeflight wrote:
| I'm in this weird grey zone were I mostly don't mind tomato
| taste and I'm not allergic to them, but it's the texture of the
| fruit, particularly raw, that will illicit a gag response.
|
| That's why for example I don't mind the tomato sauce on pizza,
| but put whole slices of it on a burger and I will remove them
| before I eat it.
| bombela wrote:
| I am willing to bet that you never had a good tomato. A good
| ripe tomato is impossible to transport. So what we get in the
| store is full of water with this weirdly mushy texture. Feels
| like the tomato is stealing all other flavors in your mouth.
| But a tomato from a home garden. That's a totally different
| experience.
| squarefoot wrote:
| I have some problems digesting tomatoes (moderate acid reflux),
| although this happens when eating a lot of them and uncooked
| (no probs at all with cooked juice, pizzas etc.). But being an
| Italian that's not an uncommon problem. However eating them
| among other things helps a lot, as does taking enough time to
| digest them before taking a nap or sleeping. For that matter I
| tend to avoid them at dinner unless I'm sure I won't go to bed
| for some hours. Moderate cooking significantly reduces the
| effects too: I never experienced any side effects by making my
| pizza with finely sliced green tomato, tuna, onion and
| mozzarella.
| mpol wrote:
| I seem to be allergic in the context of histamine. Not as much
| as oranges, which can make me sneeze for the rest of the day.
| Using hay fever pills makes this reaction go away. I do enjoy
| tomatoes very much and eat them often though.
| mpol wrote:
| Some more info is in an article of mine. I do need to update
| it, because I am using a low dose of antispychotics again.
|
| https://timelord.nl/gezondheid/biologische-
| hefbomen.html?lan...
|
| Histamine apparently caused a lot of itching, which I always
| took for normal. Using antihistamine tablets make me stop
| pulling my eyebrows. I did not write that in the blogpost,
| there a small bit of shame involved.
| eliasmacpherson wrote:
| Now we're talking, you've correctly surmised what I was
| digging for. Thanks for sharing your article, I'll have a
| read through it.
|
| Here's some pseudoscience, you may also find the parent
| comment that it is in reply to interesting.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27993001
| mpol wrote:
| Thank you, seems interesting. Down into a rabbit hole
| again :)
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Look up MCAS and the more severe form of mast cell
| disease, mastocytosis, and their neuropsychological
| consequences.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| It's very common, acid reflux after Italian food that's loaded
| with tomatoes is basically almost expected culturally?
|
| Tomatoes contain a lot of histamine, and can trigger mast cell
| degranulation, which I think should offer at least some
| explanation why acid reflux with tomatoes is so common.
| Typically reflux isn't seen as a sign of intolerance or
| allergies, but seems that's actually a sign of mild intolerance
| and mast stabilizers actually work better than antacids in many
| people.
|
| There are people who say that all nightshades are "bad", but I
| never heard anyone complain about potatoes in the same way.
|
| I'm not sure these are true allergies, although those are
| probably possible. Some allergies that are very common in
| Europe (peach allergy/LTP syndrome) seem very rare in the US,
| and vice versa with peanuts.
|
| In case of an LTP allergy, or fruit-vegetable allergy syndrome,
| you could trivially have people cross-react to tomatoes because
| LTP proteins are ubiquitous across species.
|
| From my research into inflammation the only solid take away I
| had is that not a single person in the world truly understand
| what allergy is, and what to do with, except for rather crude
| tools like epinephrine and antihistamines. Even food allergy
| desensitization with Xolair barely works and mostly fails, and
| that's the best we can come up with after 70 years of research.
| rubatuga wrote:
| You forgot steroids and mabs such as Omalizumab.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Xolair is omalizumab. it is however a very specific mab, an
| anti-IgE, not many others are helpful.
|
| If we gonna go down this route, some drs rx
| gleevec/imatinib, and some people self-medicate with
| veterinary drug masitinib, which failed human trials due to
| liver issues but otherwise was very helpful.
| kgeist wrote:
| >Would be interested to hear anything from people who have
| experienced a food allergy or intolerance towards tomatoes,
| something the NHS seems very skeptical on.
|
| For me, it's itchy around the lips, but no more than that.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| That could be oral allergy syndrome. Are you allergy to
| pollen/dust or other foods?
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| In the past few years the acidity in tomatoes has started
| disagreeing with me. I used to love them, but I'm getting old.
| surge wrote:
| there are a few low acid tomato varieties that are still
| flavorful. Keep your eye out for them, they tend to be less
| red (or yellow/orangish).
| Panoramix wrote:
| I'm allergic to some specific varieties. As in full panic, my
| throat is closing.
|
| Independently (or maybe not?) from that I get an insane acid
| reflux after eating any kind of tomato. I don't get that with
| other acidic foods. The pain gets so crazy I've considered
| calling the hospital because I thought I was going to die.
| Obviously I don't eat them anymore.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I don't have any reactions beyond taste, but raw tomatoes,
| especially high quality ones, taste... poisonous to me. Not in
| an "i don't like this" way, but a nearly uncontrollable gag
| reflex way.
|
| If you offered me $1000 to eat a ripe tomato off the vine, I'm
| not sure i could do it.
| tristor wrote:
| I can't eat tomatoes, but not due to allergy or intolerance,
| but rather because they're the primary trigger for my somewhat
| severe acid reflux. Eating something that contains tomatoes
| guarantees a reflux episode, even under medication, and without
| medication will likely lead to a trip to urgent care.
|
| It's unfortunate because I really like tomatoes. I grew up on a
| farm, and as a child really enjoyed a fresh ripe tomato sliced
| thin with the slices topped with salt and pepper, or eating
| thin slices of tomatoes with ham on fresh baked bread. Truly
| heavenly. Unfortunately also something I can never have again
| as long as I live.
| rockzom wrote:
| Crazy suggestion, but have you ever tried eating for the
| taste without swallowing?
| mirekrusin wrote:
| I was thinking this recently while eating chocolate; not
| really a big difference between spitting it out or
| swallowing tbh.
| tristor wrote:
| No. Why would I want to do that? There are many many many
| wonderful foods that exist in the world that don't contain
| tomatoes, and many recipes which contain tomatoes can be
| easily modified. I'm a foodie, so I don't eat just for
| sustenance but also for enjoyment and appreciation, so
| losing something as core to cuisine as tomatoes is hard,
| but not impossible to overcome.
| tedunangst wrote:
| Well, if you eat for enjoyment and appreciation, then
| there's no need to swallow for sustenance. There's always
| a spit bucket in the wine tasting room.
| Kosirich wrote:
| My dads grandma would still refer to tomato as "food for pigs".
| mprovost wrote:
| My great uncle used to tell me stories about how he wasn't
| allowed to eat tomatoes growing up in Massachusetts during the
| Great Depression. Only Italian immigrants ate them and everyone
| else thought they were crazy and were slowly poisoning
| themselves. It's amazing to think how this New World vegetable
| (fruit?) was (eventually) introduced into American cuisine via
| Italy.
|
| A new thought: you'd think people back then would just see that
| it was safe because Italians were eating it and not dying. But
| then again we seem to still live in an age where facts about
| what things are safe to take are still under siege.
| cnasc wrote:
| Counterpoint: people back then saw people chain-smoke
| cigarettes all day long with no apparent ill effect.
| markdown wrote:
| Kava is the national drink of Fiji. It's been consumed across
| the Pacific Islands for 3000 years. It's currently banned in
| Europe, and the US FDA refuses to give it GRAS (Generally
| Recognised as Safe) despite it being an ancient food of a US
| state).
| [deleted]
| detaro wrote:
| It's not blanket-banned in Europe (or the EU). It's
| generally not permitted in pharmaceutical products, some
| countries restrict its commercial sale.
| markdown wrote:
| AFAIK the only exception is Poland.
|
| > It's generally not permitted in pharmaceutical
| products, some countries restrict its commercial sale
|
| It's never been acceptable as food. Only as a mislabelled
| pharmaceutical product. That ended in 2002 after some
| nonsense in Germany.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| My grandfather considered all green vegetables cow feed.
| dmos62 wrote:
| Not sure why this is being downvoted. My grandfather was the
| same way. He slowly changed ways after retirement.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| Your grandfather only ate grains and things that eat grains.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| Yes, meat, but not so much grains as potatoes.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| I'll never forget when I was 6 or so and visiting my
| grandparents.
|
| My grandma had decided to do something wild and new and
| had made one of those newfangled frozen pizzas for
| dinner, kids loved those she'd read.
|
| So we sat down, each getting a slice, and then she serves
| my grandfather a small plate with three cooked potatoes
| on it...
|
| I ask what's the potatoes are for.
|
| "It's not dinner if there's no potatoes".
|
| And with that, he ate pizza with potatoes.
| thom wrote:
| In my youth my parents always served pizza with baked
| potatoes and coleslaw. I think there was definitely this
| general idea that pizza wasn't a meal in and of itself.
| el-salvador wrote:
| > "It's not dinner if there's no potatoes".
|
| This is mostly anecdotal, but I've had something similar
| happen in Nicaragua. Most of my acquaintances and friends
| don't consider pizza a "meal". It is considered by most
| only a side dish, because it doesn't come served with
| rice
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| anything change from the last time you posted this?
|
| Here's some discussion from 5 years ago:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13052405
| bobthepanda wrote:
| HN allows reposts with enough time separation; presumably not
| everyone on HN was also on it 5 years ago.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Sounds similar to the fear about drugs. Many people who use or
| abuse drugs have mental health issues and they are using the drug
| in an attempt to self medicate. People see this and think that
| drugs cause mental health issues, which is not true at all.
| ruforrel wrote:
| Sounds like something a drug addicted mental patient would say.
| njdullea wrote:
| Sounds like something a boomer who listened to too much Nancy
| Reagan would say.
| [deleted]
| Isamu wrote:
| Sounds like another day on HN
| tgv wrote:
| Here's your mozzarella-heroin salad, madam. Enjoy.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| Well, I'd argue that overconsumption of hard drugs _is_ a
| mental health issue, so there 's definitely some relation.
| supperburg wrote:
| Overconsumption is the symptom of mental health problems, not
| the cause. The only major class of drug induced mental
| disorder has to do with people who have a pre-existing
| condition. But when people can't stop using drugs, it's
| because they have an emotional problem. Most of the Vietnam
| vets who used heroin overseas stopped using without issue
| when they came back.
| yakubin wrote:
| It may be a symptom, but it may also be its own cause.
| Chemical addiction is a thing and various drugs have
| various levels of risk or chemical addiction. Alcohol,
| nicotine, cocaine, heroine - you can get addicted to them
| without any emotional problems.
| supperburg wrote:
| This is the old narrative and it's wrong. Physical
| addiction is an exceedingly small part of the problem.
| And most cases of physical addiction are brought on by
| continued use which is almost always brought on by the
| cause of addiction which has been shown to be emotional
| and psychiatric problems.
| xyzzy123 wrote:
| If you accept this as dogma ("always") then the reasoning
| becomes circular.
|
| Overuse is then "proof" of the person's underlying
| problems.
|
| That seems too reductive. Find me a person without
| "emotional / psychiatric problems"(!)
|
| Substance use is multi-faceted. It can be modulated by
| availability (cost being a factor), social acceptability,
| religion, personal biology (eg alcohol intolerance),
| emotional state, age, physical addiction, history/habit,
| availability of substitutes (e.g. availability of heroin
| will tend to suppress use of krokodil), social supports
| and more.
|
| To this way of thinking there was widespread heroin use
| among GIs in Vietnam because it was socially acceptable
| in context, widely available, people were bored, their
| usual social and emotional supports were not present, and
| for some, trauma.
|
| You can change any of the factors above and that will
| influence how people use.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| meth at high doses causes mental health issues. Period.
| powellzer wrote:
| As does poverty, poor education, pollution, and mass
| incarceration. These are all cyclical problems.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| I mean sure, while high most definitely
| termy wrote:
| How do you know?
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