[HN Gopher] What collective narcissism does to society
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What collective narcissism does to society
Author : defaultname
Score : 95 points
Date : 2021-11-06 15:54 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theatlantic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theatlantic.com)
| 323 wrote:
| It's funny that the article only gives right-wing examples of
| group narcissism (Trump, Brexit, Poland, Hungary, ...)
|
| No mention of stuff on the left, maybe because the author fears
| to be labeled as "enemy within", as he explains in article:
|
| > _Collective narcissists are hypervigilant about "enemies
| within," members who, in their opinion, reflect negatively on the
| group._
| TeeMassive wrote:
| This is what a I thought too. A classical case of projection
| through accusation.
|
| "All narcissists tell on themselves"
| https://medium.com/@OwnYourReality/projection-the-narcissist...
| civilized wrote:
| There are many enemies within on the left:
|
| - The progressive think tanker who was fired for citing a black
| prof's research saying riots are detrimental to social change
|
| - The star NYT science reporter who was fired for _mentioning_
| the n-word a decade ago in a conversation where it was relevant
|
| - The Smith College janitor who was publicly smeared as racist
| for, _in accordance with instructions from his own bosses,_
| asking a black student why she was in a closed-off dining hall
|
| - The progressive young Asian novelist who was viciously
| slandered for writing a story inspired by human trafficking in
| Asia, under the pretense that she had appropriated the American
| black experience of slavery
|
| I could go on all day. It's been a nasty few years. Start with
| anything by Michael Powell at the NYT if you want to know more.
| logicprojects wrote:
| https://archive.md/mNK3o
| jl6 wrote:
| Although the description of the phenomenon sounds plausible - it
| triggers the "oh yeah, I've definitely met one of _those_ types"
| reflex - the incredibly broad set of examples makes me question
| the idea's explanatory power.
|
| We're offered everything from terrorists and racists through to
| sports teams and gender identity.
|
| > Now, she said, she's terrified at how widely she's finding it
| manifested across the globe.
|
| If it's everywhere, maybe it's just part of the normal variation
| of human personality?
| kordlessagain wrote:
| Narcissistic behaviors are not unusual or always bad (kids need
| it for example), but many times in adults they manifest as a
| means to offload the work from the pain they are experiencing
| based on their own judgments, of themselves. When cornered,
| some may freely admit this as they can easily pin it on you
| later if you aren't paying attention.
| austincheney wrote:
| Sounds like adult immaturity.
| lazide wrote:
| It is a type of emotional regulation offloading. Which can
| be considered that way. Adult immaturity does tend to be
| highly correlated with it in my experience, but I'm no
| psychologist.
| lazide wrote:
| The definition as being relayed from the article doesn't meet
| any of the classical narcissism definitions so I think you're
| right. Someone awhile ago came up with a cool name for a new
| definition of something ('group narcissism'), and since calling
| people you don't like narcissist seems en Vogue this year, here
| we are.
|
| Also, narcissism - as in the actually identifiable pathology,
| has a number of falsifiable elements (as much as one can get in
| psychology anyway, which isn't much) which this theory doesn't
| really have.
|
| So it's basically horoscoping.
|
| Also, good luck trying to clearly define society wide pathology
| in a credible way.
| laurent92 wrote:
| > normal variation of human personality?
|
| We can't exclude the possibility that phones are extremely
| rapidly (<8 years) transforming human traits.
|
| In parallel, I'm seeing the emergence of a new layer of "bogan
| millionaires" (that I'm part of): People who shouldn't reach
| there so fast, but did it anyway through apps, instagram, stock
| exchange or bitcoins. There are so many of us that it's a real
| danger (or a real chance), it feels like undeserved power for
| people who didn't struggle enough to know what a few million
| dollars really is. It is mostly due to the decentralization of
| power brought by the internet, but moving masses from learned
| inability to having some power, while leaving the rest of the
| population (the good old workers who kept at his work
| diligently) in the ditch... It may change the face of humanity.
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| What's the difference between the "Bogan millionaires" now
| and the "nouveau riche" of the train barons, telecom barons,
| wall street millionaires, movie millionaires, textile
| tycoons, etc. when they were trying to prove themselves to
| the old monied peoples who brought their spoils from the "old
| country" or previous generations? It just sounds like a new
| term for the same unnecessary guilt complex.
| mpalczewski wrote:
| These tools of analysis should be used for self reflection and
| not for explaining positions and behaviors of others that you
| don't really understand at all.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| Although the article makes an explicit distinction between
| tribalism and group narcissism it's not clear to me what it is or
| why the latter deserves to be treated like a distinct phenomenon.
|
| In particular given the example of Portuguese people who have
| antagonistic reactions to Germany in the EU. Seems to me the
| pretty straightforward explanation is material/political. There
| is conflict of interest within an institution for power, and if
| anything the psychological narcissism is at best an
| epiphenomenon. It doesn't seem irrational. Instead of trying to
| get people to 'unlearn' their behaviour it seems like the more
| straightforward way is to resolve the conflict by devolving power
| or something.
|
| Same with the other example of US polarization. There is real
| material interests underpinning the groupings.
| wpietri wrote:
| Sorry, but I'm not getting why you're not getting the
| distinction. It seems pretty obvious to me.
|
| Most individuals display self-interest, material and otherwise.
| But most individuals aren't narcissists; they lack the
| grandiosity, the entitlement, the monopolization of
| conversation, etc. [1]
|
| You can look at a similar difference between groups. E.g., to
| me as an American, Canada is not my "tribe". I might believe
| that each group has different strengths, and I might be quite
| happy to stay an American. That's perfectly normal. Indeed,
| having lived abroad a few times, those periods in some ways
| _sharpened_ my sense of American identity.
|
| In contrast, look at the American Confederacy. There's a ton of
| material on their grandiosity and entitlement, but the most
| obvious piece of evidence is their own Vice-President
| describing what the heart of their project was: "our new
| government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests,
| upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white
| man; that slavery--subordination to the superior race--is his
| natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the
| first, in the history of the world, based upon this great
| physical, philosophical, and moral truth." [2]
|
| In my opinion, that's bonkers. To make one's own identity and
| purpose so deeply based in the inferiority of another group is
| fucking deranged.
|
| Now was their real material interest underpinning that? Sure.
| If they didn't get to treat humans like livestock, the Southern
| aristocrats might actually have had to work for a living. God
| forbid they have to live by the sweat of their brows like
| everybody else. So their narcissistic derangement was
| _adaptive_ in some sense. But that doesn 't make it less
| diagnose; individual narcissism is also often adaptive in that
| sense.
|
| [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
| conditions/narcissistic-...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech
| lazide wrote:
| Just wait until you read up on the Spartans! That was what
| they built their empire on for quite a long time.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >But that doesn't make it less diagnose; individual
| narcissism is also often adaptive in that sense.
|
| Isn't something being adaptive exactly what it makes it not
| pathological? The definition of a disease is behaviour that
| produces adverse outcomes in the individual or group in
| question.
|
| To take up your example of racism and subordination and
| slavery, I think it is fundamentally important to recognize
| it as the economical and political structure that it was to
| the benefit of slave owners, not as some sort of idea out of
| the ether or mental illness. The racist theory is the
| _consequence_ or justification for the power relation not the
| other way around.
|
| In the same vein my biggest problem with this theory of group
| narcissism is exactly what kind of thinking it leads to, from
| the article:
|
| > _" How, then, can we curtail the spread of group narcissism
| and promote more intergroup harmony? The good news is that,
| just as it's possible to have healthy individual self-esteem,
| it is possible to have healthy in-group love where being a
| member of your group feels good and you have great pride in
| its genuine accomplishments_"
|
| Was the confederacy defeated by group therapy and promoting
| healthy in-group love among the confederates because they
| really just were insecure about themselves? No, people
| literally went to war and destroyed the slave economy and the
| institutions underpinning it. It wasn't an issue of mass
| psychology.
| lazide wrote:
| Well, total war and wholesale slaughter is a _type_ of mass
| psychology I guess?
|
| Seriously though, just like individuals who undergo a
| serious and dangerous psychotic episode often need to be
| restrained, even to the point of being shot if no other
| options are available that work, to avoid them causing
| massive damage to themselves or those around them, the same
| happens to nations sometimes.
|
| Also, just like can happen in a small group with a
| psychotic individual, sometimes the crazy person wins.
|
| For a nation that involves invasions, embargoes, etc. self-
| harm for an individual would be a country performing purges
| or genocide on it's own people, or destroying it's own
| economy due to some nonsensical ideology.
|
| The issue with nations is the sheer scale of the damage
| they can cause, as compared to one standalone individual.
|
| If say China starts going after neighbors, it's roughly
| like it the 300 lb, heavily armed, weightlifter in the
| neighborhood starts going on a rampage on his family. Not
| much anyone can do without a whole lot of hurt for
| everyone.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Most individuals display self-interest, material and
| otherwise. But most individuals aren 't narcissists; they
| lack the grandiosity, the entitlement, the monopolization of
| conversation, etc._
|
| Well, this isn't about individuals though, it's about groups.
|
| And groups have legitimate political and material grievances
| against one another, not just "narcissistic" ones, as if
| everything is perfect in the most perfect of possible worlds.
|
| > _In my opinion, that 's bonkers. To make one's own identity
| and purpose so deeply based in the inferiority of another
| group is fucking deranged._
|
| Well, that's the case with the North too, and the whole
| American experiment was established on this, and continues on
| the same path: on the superiority religious zealots thrown
| out of Europe (and later immigrants adopted into their
| culture cult) claim against other countries. "Greatest
| country in the world", "Manifest destiny", "Home of the
| free", "leader of the free world", and so on.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _In particular given the example of Portuguese people who
| have antagonistic reactions to Germany in the EU. Seems to me
| the pretty straightforward explanation is material /political.
| There is conflict of interest within an institution for power,
| and if anything the psychological narcissism is at best an
| epiphenomenon. It doesn't seem irrational._
|
| That's the problem with such "science" (using the term loosely,
| this is not physics, but "soft" science, that is, bogus
| ideology with questionaire-and-stats-as-evaluated-by-the-
| researcher-based "validation").
|
| They start from it being "irrational", based on whatever status
| quo ideas (in the general society or among their peers or
| funding sources) they take as given, and in their "results"
| take for granted what they should have proven. It's easy to see
| the markers for "psychological narcissim" when all you allow
| for is that, and not other causes. It's even easier to overblow
| them.
|
| E.g. "tension between say Portugal and Germany 'must' be
| psychological narcissism", because they don't see (or want to
| hide under the rag) the political and material antagonisms.
| More often than not, they don't have a clue about them anyway -
| being politically naive, and isolated and uniformed about both
| the political, legislative, etc, manifestations, and the
| material circumstances of such antagonisms.
|
| (Not that the antagonistic populations have theoritically
| studied those material and political antagonisms. But they can
| feel their results, and can follow certain changes in policy
| and their effects on them and their country -they have skin in
| the game, so to speak. Changes and effects that some PhD
| researcher in "social sciences" in some universy in a remote
| country has no clue whatsover, unless they've specifically gone
| and searched for them).
| coldtea wrote:
| Sounds like a catch-all theory to pin everything you want and get
| any result you'd like from it...
| BrianOnHN wrote:
| > Collective narcissism is not simply tribalism. Humans are
| inherently tribal, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Having
| a healthy social identity can have an immensely positive impact
| on well-being. Collective narcissists, though, are often more
| focused on out-group prejudice than in-group loyalty.
| bsanr wrote:
| >She began to notice something that looked a lot like what the
| 20th-century scholars Theodor Adorno and Erich Fromm had referred
| to as "group narcissism": Golec de Zavala defined it to me as "a
| belief that the exaggerated greatness of one's group is not
| sufficiently recognized by others," in which that thirst for
| recognition is never satiated.
|
| As an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfaUDh42bRs
|
| I believe this was shortly after NYPD officers had brawled with
| protestors and an NYPD SUV had driven into a crowd of protestors.
|
| EDIT: This one's more succinct:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVQmdKwn_dQ
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| Lmfao I wasn't expecting that ending from the first one. It
| really knocks that press conference down a peg followed up by
| that.
| pphysch wrote:
| One of the [dead]/censored comments correctly pointed out that
| the examples have a clear political bias.
|
| If we are being honest, the "group narcissism" elephant in the
| room is neoliberalism, which portrays itself unambiguously as the
| One True Way to manage human societies (everything else is
| "totalitarian"), to absolutely disastrous human consequences in
| Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine, and many more regions.
| TeeMassive wrote:
| > which portrays itself unambiguously as the One True Way to
| manage human societies
|
| I get it that you are not familiar with Marxism.
| pphysch wrote:
| What is your point? Some sects of Marxist ideology, like
| Soviet Communism, do the exact same thing.
| TeeMassive wrote:
| Marxism makes many prophetic statements about history and
| humanity.
| pphysch wrote:
| Again, what is your point here?
| BuyMyBitcoins wrote:
| I believe it's also the case that tribalism is the norm
| throughout human history and the authors of the article are of
| the neoliberal mindset that in-group preference is immoral
| because it defies egalitarianism.
|
| But I also can't help but notice that such 'narcissistic' in-
| group preference dominant groups seem to be doing really well
| for themselves. The Amish and Hasidic populations are doubling
| about every twenty years.
| pphysch wrote:
| Collective cohesion and "group narcissism" are not identical.
| Virtually every successful group has relatively high
| cohesion. Some of them also have exceptionalist/"narcissist"
| tendencies, like Nazism, Soviet Communism, Zionism, American
| Exceptionalism, neoliberalism, et al.
|
| But you _can_ have a successful, cohesive group without being
| fascist.
| golemiprague wrote:
| Since when Zionism is fascist or narcissist? Same as the
| article itself, it is just another way to say, we are the
| progressives are good and anything we don't like is bad. It
| is not even lazy science, just simple and useless
| propaganda
| pald wrote:
| Oh there is a cure for narcissism and group narcissim. A good ass
| kicking.
| tux3 wrote:
| Psychology as a discipline might recommend just a little bit
| more nuance.
| bsanr wrote:
| Probably found in the difference between being humiliated and
| being humbled.
|
| https://praveshkoirala.com/2021/11/03/combating-
| disinformati... https://harpers.org/archive/2021/10/put-on-
| the-diamonds-note...
|
| (Both previously posted on HN.)
| asguy wrote:
| What about the rise in mental health problems alongside the
| rise in the acceptance of modern psychology? Correlation?
| Causation?
|
| Viktor Frankl might have been on to something with his change
| in approach.
| watwut wrote:
| Mental health problems existed before modern psychology.
| Moder psychology gave them names, catalogized them and so
| on.
|
| No one could be diagnosed with bipolar disorder before the
| term existed. That does not mean such people did not
| existed before.
| asguy wrote:
| Do you think there are more people with "mental health
| problems" before or after the advent of "modern
| psychology"?
|
| To be clear: do you think the practice is helping or
| hurting?
| YokoZar wrote:
| Given that narcissism is fueled by past trauma and by beliefs
| of having greatness being unrecognized, that sounds like the
| exact opposite of helpful.
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