[HN Gopher] Show HN: WebFrame: F# framework for rapid prototypin...
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Show HN: WebFrame: F# framework for rapid prototyping with ASP.NET
Core
Author : RussBaz
Score : 122 points
Date : 2021-11-05 16:36 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| rastreus wrote:
| Wrapping ASP.NET Core to be easier and more idiomatic with F#
| seems to be a common domain. Out of curiosity, did you look at
| any existing projects? If so, what was lacking from them that
| made you decide to write WebFrame?
|
| Giraffe: https://github.com/giraffe-fsharp/Giraffe Saturn:
| https://github.com/SaturnFramework/Saturn Falco:
| https://github.com/pimbrouwers/Falco Wiz:
| https://github.com/samueleaton/wiz
| jmnicolas wrote:
| Were you aware of https://minimal-apis.github.io/ before starting
| this project?
| FpUser wrote:
| >"Don't get me wrong, it is insanely powerful, performant and
| customisable web framework. And it is also one of the most USER-
| UNFRIENDLY things I have ever encountered"
|
| That is a Microsoft's trademark. They produce powerful and very
| complex APIs. Historically for native apps it was Borland / now
| Embarcadero would wrap those in still powerful but very user
| friendly libs / components for Delphi. Not sure what is available
| for .NET as I am not using the framework.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| I can do a web server in one line of code,
|
| sudo service apache2 start
| stickyricky wrote:
| You forgot to define the hello-world endpoint.
| de_keyboard wrote:
| Totally missing the point. A good web framework lets you get
| running with a few lines but then allows you to add custom
| logic with minimal incidental complexity.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| I think you're missing the point. It's not how many lines of
| code it takes. You have to think a bit harder what the
| desirable properties are. Minimizing complexity is nice,
| great start. What does that mean? It's certainly not one of
| the "guiding principles" of this library. It's focusing on,
| among other things,
|
| - "least amount of code" - and "a beautiful code"
|
| _shrug_
|
| You minimize complexity by defining primitive expressions,
| means of combination, and means of abstraction [1]. Sound
| familiar?
|
| [1] https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-
| text/...
| RussBaz wrote:
| I was frustrated with the verbosity of ASP.NET Core, especially
| as an F# user. Don't get me wrong, it is insanely powerful,
| performant and customisable web framework. And it is also one of
| the most USER-UNFRIENDLY things I have ever encountered in the
| web development.
|
| Therefore, I decided to wrap it in some helper functions to make
| it as pleasant to work with for the new F# web developers as
| possible. And ... I've got somewhat carried away. This is the
| true origin of this project.
|
| Before F# I was primarily into the Python, and I had really good
| experience with Django. I wanted to make my helper look more like
| Django but more I wrote, more it resembled Flask instead.
|
| I have recently open sourced it under the MIT license on GitHub.
| I hope this will help with making other web developers more
| interested in seemingly niche language of F#.
|
| I use it for a side project (some SPA app) I work on over the
| weekends. Therefore, I frequently change and update it as I
| encounter more missing things or parts that do not please me.
|
| So, all the feedback is welcome! I am especially interested if
| you find the framework API intuitive enough for non-F# folks.
|
| Thanks for your time!
| 0xcoffee wrote:
| Are you aware of the work they did in C# to cut this down?
|
| https://dotnetthoughts.net/minimal-api-in-aspnet-core-mvc6/
| RussBaz wrote:
| I do and I love this. It is clearly a positive change. However,
| it is mostly for C# developers. Using the new API in F# is
| still somewhat clunky. IMO
| pharmakom wrote:
| Still heavily object orientated, but a step in the right
| direction.
| kokanee wrote:
| Someone will post the JS version, might as well be me
| require('http').createServer((req, res) => res.end('Hello
| World')).listen(8000)
| metaltyphoon wrote:
| I mean... that's kinda useless no?
|
| C# version.
|
| var app = WebApplication.Create(args); app.MapGet("/",() =>
| "Hello World"); app.Run();
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Great, now I can finally ditch python -m
| http.server 8000
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| Exactly, I am pretty sure there is an equivalent in all the
| major languages except C/C++.
|
| go http.ListenAndServe(":8000", nil)
| pbiggar wrote:
| This is really nice. For comparison, this is what using ASP.NET
| directly in F# is like:
|
| https://github.com/darklang/dark/blob/main/fsharp-backend/sr...
| pharmakom wrote:
| Any thoughts on Giraffe vs Saturn vs Suave?
| pbiggar wrote:
| I tried them all, didn't like any of them.
|
| As I recall, Suave is on its way out, and was replaced by
| Saturn. Saturn is built on Giraffe.
|
| I found Saturn to be incredibly confusing because you need to
| understand both it and Giraffe to be able to use it.
|
| I used Giraffe for a while, but I still needed to understand
| the ASP.NET middleware approach, which didn't match
| Giraffe's.
|
| Also, ASP.NET has a new endpoint based routing framework
| which is supposed to be very fast. Giraffe has started to
| adopt that, but I found most of the docs refer to the old way
| of doing things. So although I'm using it a little bit in the
| code above, I found it easier to just use ASP.NET directly in
| most cases.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Since F# is typed, have a look at FastApi in Python. It's a
| better inspiration than flask: it uses dep injection with typing
| to configure your endpoints. It's very flexible, infinity
| composable, and such a nice experience.
|
| Django's API is now clearly dated. I still use it massively
| though, because it's insanely productive for CRUD apps, which are
| 99% of my client requests.
|
| They made some hard choices about the auth and db layer, and they
| are imperfect, but when left to do the choice myself in other
| frameworks, I often miss Django. You really value all it gives
| you once you've lost it.
| submeta wrote:
| Thank you for mentioning FastAPI. Looks awesome. Recently I
| started using Flask, as Django feels like too much overhead for
| smaller projects. FastAPI looks like a good alternative to
| Flask.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| > Django feels like too much overhead for smaller projects
|
| It depends. My advice is always: stick to django no matter
| what, unless you are a seasoned web devs. I've seen too many
| flask projects with terrible architecture decisions and
| security holes because flask assumes (by nature) you can take
| those decisions.
|
| Those decisions are not easy to take. They require a deep
| knowledge of the field.
|
| So yes, one may chose flask or fast api as a lighter
| alternative, provided they know very well what they are
| doing, or that the consequences of not knowing are small. The
| later is not always simple to evaluate however, especially if
| you are not experienced. You don't know what you don't know
| after all.
|
| If somebody doesn't know if they are an experienced web dev,
| or the consequences of their choices, they should use Django.
|
| It will save them from SQL injection, XSS, Cross request
| forgery and click hijacking. It will provide an pluggable
| auth backend should you need it later. It will force you to
| put some parts of your code in separate sillows. This is a
| good thing for most people.
| spinningslate wrote:
| agree it depends, and I haven't looked at Django for years
| - so can't comment on it.
|
| However, I have been using FastAPI with Jinja2 & htmx to
| create web APIs and UIs for some of our services.
| Individually, they're great; collectively they're a joy.
| I'm no front end dev, but even I can put together
| functional, decent-looking apps in a few hundred lines of
| code. They bare comparison to angular apps that can easily
| be an order of magnitude more code.
| loulouxiv wrote:
| Frankly if you go with the most popular extensions: Flask-
| SQLAlchemy, Flask-Login and Flask-Admin you will have more
| or less all the features of Django with a nicer API, better
| documentation and more flexibility
| RussBaz wrote:
| I just wanted to mention that I considered FastApi but the
| amount of reflection and magic required to go this route was a
| bit too much to my liking in F#. Just a personal preference.
|
| I mostly agree with you on Django though. But as you said -
| most apps are CRUD apps.
| platz wrote:
| how would you do something like validating JWTs, such as issuer
| claims, with this framework?
| JaggerJo wrote:
| Can recommend Giraffe for building APIs.
| devmunchies wrote:
| > Every time I tried to write something quickly, I often had to
| choose between a heavily functional programming oriented
| frameworks or extremely tedious ASP.NET Core.
|
| Agree. dev experience is missing in dotnet IMO. I had the exact
| same sentiment last year. made https://wiz.run/
|
| I hated going through all the microsoft dotnet docs. Wanted
| something like this: https://wiz.run/api/
| d3nj4l wrote:
| You don't have to use asp.net directly in F# - there's been a
| long-standing library wrapping it in a more functional aesthetic
| with Giraffe: https://github.com/giraffe-fsharp/Giraffe
|
| Not to discourage you or anything - always good to see
| alternatives. Personally, for FP web programming, the closer to
| the "your server as a function" ideal the better - so I'd prefer
| Giraffe in this case, for things like the router being an
| HttpHandler instead of being a property on the app instance. It's
| just way more intuitive from an FP standpoint and produces
| neater, more self-contained code, IMO.
| a_lost_needle wrote:
| This is fantastic. I prototype, and the last thing I want to do
| is set up and deal with all the nonsense when I need only usually
| need a few calls to a server to prove out the concept.
|
| Love it.
| RussBaz wrote:
| Thanks a lot for such a positive response! Feel free to message
| me if you have any issues.
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