[HN Gopher] I was rejected by Codecademy three times, so I built...
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I was rejected by Codecademy three times, so I built my own
Author : plondon514
Score : 632 points
Date : 2021-10-28 12:44 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (codeamigo.dev)
(TXT) w3m dump (codeamigo.dev)
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Good luck!
|
| I tend to have a similar reaction to being excluded.
| inaseem wrote:
| Hi Philip, Its great to see codeamigo come to life. Definitely a
| platform I would use myself to learn more. I am following you
| from radon's riju project.
| plondon514 wrote:
| Hey! Radon's project is great and powers the languages not
| executable by the browser! Check us out on discord as we grow
| the community there: https://discord.gg/UUgEe5MH
| SebastianKumor wrote:
| Way to go! Very inspiring. Website looks like a good start
| bingohbangoh wrote:
| hug of death?
| javier10e6 wrote:
| What brought me into the coding world was its novelty. In those
| days an electronic games were: Merlin, Simon and Mattel Football.
| Today, there is nothing novel about coding and its crushing and
| relentless.
| 9387367 wrote:
| Fantastic work.
|
| Would you have anything to help a kid build a blog and learn by
| doing it?
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| If ya can't join 'em, beat 'em.
| shakey_mcshake wrote:
| I suppose the people who get rejected by every company just need
| to build an entirely new internet to redeem themselves.
| plondon514 wrote:
| Everyone responds to rejection differently ;)
| justinzollars wrote:
| nice work!
| sithlord wrote:
| I applied to codecademy earlier this year, recruiter never showed
| up to our intro call, and then never emailed me back. Took it as
| dodging a bullet!
| yewenjie wrote:
| Really like what the site is doing, however the styling needs
| some work though.
| cardosof wrote:
| Congrats! That's very inspiring.
| SadWebDeveloper wrote:
| Oh nice fainlly a place to test my sandbox escapes... get ready
| to pwn!
| [deleted]
| throwaway158497 wrote:
| Hey, great work. I have a small feature request. I want to be
| able to give feedback on code to my students, just like in
| github. Click on a particular line(number), a text box pops up
| and then I can type in my comments. Is it possible to build the
| feature?
| plondon514 wrote:
| I love this idea!
| hanniabu wrote:
| Small fix: when you click next it should bring you to the top
| of the page instead of staying at the bottom. It gets
| annoying needing to scroll up every time and really takes you
| out of focus.
| plondon514 wrote:
| Mobile friendly strikes again, been meaning to tackle this
| one, facepalm
| m00x wrote:
| I'll be honest, this is a great start and a good app that not a
| lot of people would achieve and deliver. Hopefully this feedback
| can be constructive.
|
| It does not feel like a modern "professional" app though, the
| design is extremely lacking and not something you'd see from an
| intermediate+ frontend dev.
|
| The "New lesson" part doesn't work because it's behind an auth
| check, but there's no error message and it's displayed as an
| unauth'd user.
|
| There's a bunch of console errors everywhere for undefined
| objects.
|
| It's basically a reskinned version of this https://riju.codes/,
| so nothing of major complexity was done here.
|
| That said, delivering this is impressive, especially for a more
| junior developer. This is major step towards building up your
| career and I'm looking forward to see more!
| plondon514 wrote:
| Appreciate the feedback and I don't disagree! I definitely
| would love to work more on the design and general "smooth-ness"
| of the app. I've been focused on functionality and driving
| towards something that works. Time to tighten some screws!
|
| PS, did you interview me last year at Codecademy? ;)
| m00x wrote:
| I didn't, I never heard of the company before this.
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| The design is fine, it's totally functional, perfect for a
| developer focused site and quite refreshing actually.
|
| Great that you've pointed out a couple of bugs but I've seen
| "senior" developers who couldn't conceive of, build and deploy
| anything close to this.
|
| There's enough here to build a SaaS business out, and the OP
| can be CEO, CTO or whatever title they want
| kome wrote:
| > It does not feel like a modern "professional" app though
|
| True, it feels better that the standard "modern professional"
| design that you see nowadays, that it is just boring. Here you
| see some personality and functionality.
| pageandrew wrote:
| I disagree about the design. The layout of the app is fine, and
| its very functional and easy to use. The only problem is the
| colors. That blue has to go.
| plondon514 wrote:
| If you sign up you can change the theme in settings!
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Agreed, more neutral color is needed. Also, the
| contrast/thickness of the borders is way too high. Funny,
| because I usually complain contrast is too low for typical
| sites.
|
| I also had trouble reading the About... tooltip. I'd
| probably move that to the sidebar?
| [deleted]
| aspencer8111 wrote:
| Good on you man! You:
|
| 1. Dodged a bullet (booo on any company that would reject someone
| with this level of passion).
|
| 2. Created your own product (which you seem even more passionate
| about)
|
| 3. Did all the heavy lifting to make it interesting out of the
| gate (provided content).
|
| Wishing you all the success!
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > 1. Dodged a bullet (booo on any company that would reject
| someone with this level of passion).
|
| Passion is a double-edged sword: When a person's passions align
| closely with the company's needs, it's wonderful.
|
| But if a person's passions conflict with what the founders
| want, the passion can amplify the conflict.
|
| That's why it's important to understand exactly what the
| candidate is passionate about. If they're passionate about
| helping the company wherever necessary, that's one thing. If
| they're passionate about something tangential and they expect
| the shift the company in that direction by joining, that's
| something else.
|
| Codeamigo appears distinctly different than Codeacademy in some
| key areas, as the author explains, so I wouldn't assume that
| his passions aligned exactly with what Codeacademy was hiring
| fire. I think it's best to give the benefit of the doubt to
| Codeacademy in this case.
|
| Remember: Being rejected from a job doesn't mean someone is
| unqualified or a bad developer. There's more to matching
| candidates to a team and not every candidate is a good match
| for every team.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| Is there any room left for someone to just be good at
| something and a company pays them to do that thing.
| mylons wrote:
| Why is it best to give Codeacademy the benefit of the doubt?
| They likely hire by committee, like any tech company. In that
| scenario it's entirely dependent on who the committee is.
| It's not like Codeacademy, or any company for that matter,
| has some idempotent interviewing process. If you changed the
| interview panels, or some of the questions, the candidate may
| likely have received an offer.
| pkrotich wrote:
| Have you hired anyone? Asking because your comment make it
| sounds like there's science to it. I don't like the
| committee hiring as well but team or manager level hiring
| can segment the company culture. Also individuals can be
| biased and hire based on vibes or who is like them etc. -
| committee brings a check to that, that's why it's common.
|
| The truth is - you'll miss some great candidates because
| they simply interview poorly and of the flip side sometimes
| get a professional interviewee that cannot deliver once
| hired.
|
| You can also get a brilliant 10x candidate but a complete
| asshole (e.g CEO wanna be) that will destroy your team once
| hired.
| dimitrios1 wrote:
| Hiring is hard. We, as an industry, simply cannot
| interview.
|
| We don't know how to accurately gauge a candidates
| experience, personality or knowledge. We can only make
| them perform monkey-see-monkey-do on a whiteboard or
| through stupid, asinine puzzles and leetcode style
| exercises.
|
| To make matters worse, we often place our most senior
| software developers on interview circuits. For better or
| for worse, engineers trend towards more anti-social
| traits. It makes the whole process of understanding one's
| personality, how they think, and whether or not they'll
| be a fit for the company a complete crap-chute. This is
| literally the only industry I have been apart of that
| sucks _this bad_ at a process that is so fundamental to
| professional life.
|
| I would rather interview at McDonalds or for a call
| center (having had both of those jobs).
| boneskull wrote:
| it's "crapshoot" as in the game of craps, meaning "it's a
| gamble" but crap-chute is pretty good too. just not for
| this sentence
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| It's a crapshoot whether or not you end up in a crap
| chute of a company.
| a1369209993 wrote:
| > > the whole process of understanding one's personality,
| how they think, and whether or not they'll be a fit for
| the company
|
| It's a chute you shovel crap into (or out of), with no
| justifiable expectation of useful results. The _interview
| process as a whole_ is a crapshoot, but the process of
| understanding the candidate is a crap chute.
| KerryJones wrote:
| I have -- quite a few times in quite a few different
| jobs. There actually is a lot more science to it than we
| usually take credit for. There have been studies that our
| typical interview process gives us 17% predictability of
| how they will perform, but if we do a contract-to-hire
| (of just one week) that improves to 80%.
|
| We have proven time and time again that certain times of
| interview questions are not helpful.
|
| If you look at the best investors, their job is similar,
| I would say that most notably as YC being crazy
| successful and found similarly in my own hiring is that
| passion for a given space is one of the best predictors
| of success.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > There have been studies that our typical interview
| process gives us 17% predictability of how they will
| perform, but if we do a contract-to-hire (of just one
| week) that improves to 80%.
|
| The pool of candidates interested in full-time jobs is
| not the same as the pool of candidates interested in
| doing contract-to-hire positions.
|
| Contract-to-hire selects for people with the ability to
| risk working for a company for a period of time without a
| high risk of near-term unemployment if it doesn't work
| out. The people willing to take those jobs are usually
| more qualified to begin with because they have more
| career options open to them if the contract-to-hire
| doesn't turn into a contract job.
|
| So you're basically pre-selecting your candidates.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| So, you're agreeing that it works, then.
| maximp wrote:
| > Codeamigo appears distinctly different than Codeacademy in
| some key areas
|
| I imagine that building and releasing _the exact clone_ of
| the product from a company that rejected you would be petty
| and legally dubious.
| bitwize wrote:
| This is why it's important, in the corporate world, to
| cultivate a VB programmer's or PHP programmer's mindset, no
| matter what language you're working in: your passion should
| be with the business and solving exactly the business problem
| at hand, and treating your programming tools strictly as
| tools in service of the business.
| opan wrote:
| Small note: It's "Codecademy", not "Codeacademy". Like a
| mash-up of words rather than just two whole ones squished
| together.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > If they're passionate about helping the company wherever
| necessary, that's one thing.
|
| Why would anyone be passionate about any specific
| corporation? Sounds like a great way to be exploited. People
| are passionate about enjoyable activities such as
| programming, not companies. They help companies with their
| problems because they get paid for it.
| javajosh wrote:
| _Why would anyone be passionate about any specific
| corporation?_
|
| Speculating that it's perceived risk mitigation. If you're
| perceived as loyal, helpful, and even somewhat capable,
| they'll keep you around! This is in fact the perfect role
| for that person who gets a lot of juice out of supporting
| someone else achieve their goals. It is also probably a
| personality thing.
|
| Of course, you have to answer a generalization of your own
| question: why be passionate about anything? It doesn't seem
| to be a necessary, or indeed very useful, to improve
| darwinian fitness.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| I sometimes think the most brilliant/creative people are often
| overlooked in hiring, and admittance to programs.
|
| Whomever you are--you will do well in life.
|
| I've know some brilliant people who seem to suffer from
| anxiety, and depression. Don't push yourself to hard.
|
| I love the simplicity of your site.
|
| I will now signup.
| q-big wrote:
| > 1. Dodged a bullet (booo on any company that would reject
| someone with this level of passion).
|
| Considering what he writes on
| https://docs.codeamigo.dev/blog/why-codeamigo, I would assume
| that he has a somewhat different vision on the product than
| Codeacademy.
| codingdave wrote:
| Agreed - passion is great when aligned with the business
| direction, but can be downright toxic when in conflict.
| samstave wrote:
| Its where "mac fanbois" or "BOFHs" come from...
|
| I worked with a guy who was so mac focused he was blind to
| other tools/perspectives and it was often a friction point
| between team-members...
| rpmisms wrote:
| So many people like this just need a little dose of
| pragmatism. It helped my worldview immensely.
| masklinn wrote:
| I can only concur, having someone who's extremely
| passionate about a project but whose vision diverges
| drastically from the project's leads is hell all around.
|
| Given GP seems to indeed have quite divergent opinions
| about the product's focus:
|
| > What bothered me about the platform was that I didn't
| know or connect with my teachers. I wanted to connect with
| members of my community and learn from them, instead of
| just digesting information from a black box.
|
| then it's probably a better thing that they went and
| created their own version focused on what they think is
| important.
| 0xFACEFEED wrote:
| > 1. Dodged a bullet
|
| I'd argue that Codecademy dodged a bullet. Calling them out by
| name is in really bad taste IMO.
|
| Let's be honest: if he had launched a coding tutorial website
| thing and it didn't have the "comeback story" marketing
| narrative then no one would care.
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| Huge disagree.
|
| Companies call each other out by name all the time. Why can't
| he build his personal brand by calling CodeAcademy out by
| name but they can do so with their corporate brand?
| ironmagma wrote:
| What kind of harm does this actually do to Codecademy? I
| would argue none. There is no downside to calling them out.
| 0xFACEFEED wrote:
| Just look at the comment above mine: "booo on any company
| that". Some people will perceive his rejection as bad
| hiring practices on Codecademy's part.
|
| Every comeback story needs a bad guy that rejects or pushes
| down the hero before they rise. That's what makes this post
| interesting.
|
| It's certainly not the content; creating a web app of
| stitched together NPM packages isn't exactly a major
| challenge these days. Especially if you're copying
| something else feature-by-feature.
| ironmagma wrote:
| > Some people will perceive his rejection as bad hiring
| practices on Codecademy's part.
|
| FTR, I have no opinion for or against Codecademy.
|
| Whether it's a bad or good hiring practice depends on
| what you think of this guy. The information on whether
| any company hires or rejects a certain applicant is not a
| trade secret. If you read this and think, "this guy's a
| douchebag," then yes, the company looks sane and
| reasonable, the opposite of bad. If you read it and
| think, "this guy is perfectly reasonable," then yes, the
| company looks bad.
|
| This poster isn't saying anything about whether
| Codecademy is good or bad, they're just stating the
| facts, which were created as a result of the company's
| hiring decisions. If the facts make them look bad, that's
| on the company for making the choices they did. If they
| make them look good, the same applies. Again, I have no
| horse in this race.
| jgwil2 wrote:
| If it's so easy to build a coding tutorial website, then what
| advantage does Codecademy have beyond name recognition? So
| you're not competing with their tech, you're competing with
| their marketing. You say bad taste, I say good marketing.
| splistud wrote:
| Content? Seems like a good advantage to have for a tutorial
| website.
| 0xFACEFEED wrote:
| I don't think it's objectively good marketing. But then I
| guess it depends on what your philosophical stance is on
| "succes de scandale" (a logical extreme; there isn't much
| controversy here).
|
| My stance on the ethics of marketing is that "anything
| goes" until you start tarnishing the names of others to get
| ahead. This is why trash talking past employers/coworkers
| has always been an insta-no-hire in my book for example.
|
| Now I don't know to overstate what this guy did. Obviously
| he's not outright trash talking here. But I think once you
| form a company and start marketing then you should be held
| to some ethical standard. If you mention other people or
| companies by name then consider how what you're saying
| could be perceived.
| johnmato wrote:
| This is great; Code Academy fueled the desire in you and made it
| as inspiration to create your own. I have watched some videos,
| and I do love your byte-sized coding tutorials.
| KronisLV wrote:
| Here's the link with more information, from the linked blog at
| the bottom of the page: https://docs.codeamigo.dev/blog
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| Why don't they just call it Code Academy. why does it have to be
| some weird little made up word that doesn't even make any sense
| the_only_law wrote:
| Can't tell if this is a joke or not.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| jrowley wrote:
| Amigo means friend in Spanish. No more of a made up word than
| academy.
| macintux wrote:
| I believe the parent was referring to Codecademy itself.
| ThaJay wrote:
| cademy is not a word though. code cademy.
| neur4lnet wrote:
| I had never realised that codecademy wasn't codeacadamy. Oops.
| ThaJay wrote:
| I always have issues spelling it
| ModernMech wrote:
| Say Codecademy and Code Academy out loud. Also in general,
| weird little made up words are more defensible in terms of
| trademarks.
| consumer451 wrote:
| And better for SEO as well, is it not?
| ModernMech wrote:
| Yeah and urls for that matter, but actually I just checked
| and codecademy owns codeAcademy.com
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| probably purchased after they started making money.
| slowmotiony wrote:
| If it was 15 years ago it probably would have been named
| "Codr.io", so there is progress
| vmception wrote:
| Codebedandbreakfast with the YC founders saying "no that's
| not quite right, how about..."
| RNCTX wrote:
| Don't for get the xylophone, ukulele, and middle aged white
| guy with a beard to play the mime in all the marketing
| material.
| onion2k wrote:
| Codecademy was filed as a trademark on September 6, 2012. When
| they did that there were some pre-existing similar names around
| (eg CA Code Academy filed on September 7, 2011). It's probably
| the case that they couldn't get a "Code Academy" based .com
| domain or something too. Plus portmanteau names for startups
| were trendy back then.
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| So they can copyright their name.
| fabianhjr wrote:
| Names are not copyrightable; do you mean trademark?
| ModernMech wrote:
| *Trademark. Copyright protects creative works.
| bogwog wrote:
| You own the rights to copy something you made, you don't
| copyright something you made.
| maximp wrote:
| Oh hi, Zach!
| petee wrote:
| What does 'rejected' mean, I thought they let you sign up free?
|
| Either way, it's always nice to see alternatives, thanks for
| sharing
| plondon514 wrote:
| Hey! I was rejected as a frontend engineering job applicant 3
| times. The most recent application led to an on-site. After
| that rejection I started working on codeamigo, it's been a ton
| of fun!
| petee wrote:
| Ah thanks! I didn't know if you meant as a student, thus
| wanting to make your own classes. Looks great!
| camillomiller wrote:
| I think he means as a teacher?
| efbbrown wrote:
| I think OP probably means he was rejected from working for
| codecademy. Their loss judging by codeamigo.
| m00x wrote:
| Really? I don't want to be rude, but that site is really
| awful-looking and looks like something a bootcamp grad would
| do for their final project.
|
| The complexity though of making something like this though is
| definitely intermediate+.
| johnwheeler wrote:
| Oh, you don't want to be rude? Really? Why just come in
| here to shit on the devs project? I saw your previous
| "constructive" criticism. Do you know how hard it is? How
| many fine details are involved in launching something?
| Please display some of your solo work, so we can see the
| merits of your valuable "feedback"
| m00x wrote:
| I definitely know how hard it is, I have 10 years of
| experience and I'm now staff eng and team lead at a 50B+
| MC company.
|
| I had my own startup, and built many projects first-hand,
| but I'm not going to de-anonymize myself for the sake of
| argument.
|
| In my opinion, it should _always_ be hard. OP had a good
| launch and delivered, which is something that 's
| incredible and that only < 1% of devs do, especially by
| themselves. The design is terrible, but the idea and
| execution was great.
|
| I also love the fact that he did this out of wanting to
| prove that he could do the work, and not taking the L
| from the rejection.
| ojr wrote:
| The design doesn't need to be great for an educational
| site. More frontend tasks can be done to change the css
| with a library like tailwind ui and it will look better,
| doing css from scratch is harder but cheaper than the
| $200 tailwind download. The hardest part of this
| application is done.
| rpmisms wrote:
| I hope I never work on your team, the attitude you're
| displaying would me an instant no-go from me. Junior devs
| need encouragement, guidance, and positive feedback.
| You've managed to wrap semantically positive feedback in
| a negative mantle. Please leave this guy alone and allow
| him to continue kicking ass.
| duxup wrote:
| Possible loss, on the other hand "this guy wants to build his
| own site / make the decisions" might not be a great hire if
| you're trying to hire a worker drone to build a given widget.
|
| Lots of different situations could apply.
| officialchicken wrote:
| The only possible situation here is "A-types hire A-types;
| B-types hire C-types". If a single applicant can replace
| your entire engineering team (which definitely happened in
| this case) why wouldn't you hire them to build a widget?
| duxup wrote:
| >If a single applicant can replace your entire
| engineering team (which definitely happened in this case)
| why wouldn't you hire them to build a widget?
|
| Because possibly that's not what they want to do, build a
| widget.
| playpause wrote:
| Haven't you answered your own question? Because they
| don't want to build the widget you want them to build.
| They want to replace your whole engineering team.
|
| What about hiring them to replace the whole engineering
| team, saving on salaries? Then you're fucked when that
| person gets bored and leaves.
|
| Hyper passionate individuals don't make good hires. They
| might make good founders though.
| plondon514 wrote:
| I would've been very happy to contribute on any level. I
| have a desire and passion to be in the ed-tech space.
| Eventually I just figured that the lowest barrier to entry
| was building my own site.
| wila wrote:
| Cool site and congrats on a successful launch!
|
| Tip: Add it to your HN profile.
| plondon514 wrote:
| Thanks for the tip!
| smitop wrote:
| Their job applications were rejected:
| https://docs.codeamigo.dev/blog/why-codeamigo
| Marcus316 wrote:
| Hey actually explains in a blog entry here:
| https://docs.codeamigo.dev/blog
| chrisabrams wrote:
| Very nice job!
|
| One small request: add an option to move the step/info column
| from the far left to the far right.
| Closi wrote:
| Well it looks like you are down, apparently the 'HN Hug of Death'
| still occasionally exists.
| plondon514 wrote:
| Yeah does seem to be struggling a bit...
| stoned wrote:
| Rejecting someone three times from something that isn't the
| Rhodes Scholarship or what have you is pretty brutal. How bad
| could this candidate have been? Is Codeacademy like the Rhodes
| Scholarship or something? One of my luckiest breaks was when a
| college that rejected me the first time around accepted me the
| second time I applied. Really grateful for that opportunity.
| FractalHQ wrote:
| Can I request a Svelte tutorial?
| plondon514 wrote:
| You certainly can! And thanks for reminding me, I need to add
| an interest form on the site. BTW the svelte tutorial on the
| official docs site is really great!
| https://svelte.dev/tutorial/basics
| tac0_ wrote:
| This is awesome! Love the focus on short practical tutorials and
| not leetcode style questions. Are you planning on iterating this
| further?
| mtc010170 wrote:
| Way to be! It's silly how often employers overlook the "I just
| really want to be part of/build this" factor. People with that
| make for excellent teammates.
| alexashka wrote:
| > People with that make for excellent teammates.
|
| I agree, sort of. All things being equal, you want someone who
| has that sparkle, that enthusiasm.
|
| But things often aren't equal and people are really prone to
| hiring who they _like_ , over who will get the job done and
| it's a real problem.
|
| It's tough, really. There are many highly disagreeable software
| developers I've met who are good at their job, but you just
| want to get away from, and then there are starry eyed social
| people who are _fun_ but terrible at their job.
|
| A software dev that's good and still has some sparkle in them
| after being in the industry for a decade is like a unicorn in
| my experience. I don't know what it means but it does make me
| sad.
| xtracto wrote:
| It's complicated. At my last startup (web application) I was in
| charge of hiring for the technical team. I've got an
| application from a guy who _really really_ wanted to work
| there. But the truth is that he didn 't have basic coding
| skills (in that, he couldn't do FizzBuzz level of coding). I
| really tried to get him in but in reality we would not have
| been able to put him in any position.
|
| I was sad because he sent the best "cover letters" I have read
| ever. And I almost never care about cover letters.
| LordKano wrote:
| Someone that passionate can probably be mentored into the
| skill set necessary to do the job.
|
| I spent a year at a TA at a University and in that time I had
| two students who were really stellar. They were outstanding
| programmers. They paid attention detail and wrote elegant but
| easy to read code that worked. I took the time to offer both
| of them my assistance if they needed any help after
| graduation.
|
| I play video games with one of them. The other one got out of
| CS and changed her major to something art related.
| slingnow wrote:
| What does the conclusion of your comment have to do with
| supporting your argument?
| mtc010170 wrote:
| Oh wow, that it sad.
|
| Based on the responses, I think I should clarify:
|
| People that show that they want to be there _often_ make for
| excellent teammates, because they actually care (the old
| missionaries vs mercenaries idea), and will often be willing
| to put in the effort to fill whatever gaps they lack, while
| creating a positive work environment.
|
| Plus, they might have a really good feel for the product and
| market, because they're genuinely interested in it. You want
| people like that on your team.
|
| Now, of course - businesses are not a charity that _only_
| employ people because they want to be there. There is a
| minimum bar of skills required and plenty of other traits
| that matter. And on the employer side, there 's a ton of
| factors there too (budget, existing skills of the team, etc
| etc).
|
| So yes, I was generalizing. But in general: I'd take someone
| who wants to be there with high aptitude who has things to
| learn over someone who has skills but doesn't actually give a
| crap about the product or company any day of the week, for
| the types of companies I'm trying to build. That doesn't mean
| my or your companies needs/goals are the same.
| xwdv wrote:
| Sorry but anyone who comes with that attitude is extremely
| naive and cannot be trusted. And is NOT a good teammate. How
| can you want to be part of something when you don't even know
| what it's like on the inside?
|
| What happens when you are given a task you do NOT want to be
| part of? What happens when a task has moral gray area? What
| happens if you suddenly decide you really want to be part of
| something else?
|
| Fuck people like that, if you're hiring someone you want
| someone with valuable skills who is ready to be of service,
| ready to do whatever you ask, and will remain loyal so long as
| they are paid. You don't want people to be nice, you want them
| to be predictable. That's true value.
| glenneroo wrote:
| Way to generalize everybody who is ever enthusiastic to work
| somewhere - they're all untrustworthy and horrible teammates.
| deadbunny wrote:
| By the sounds of it they just want robots.
|
| "Moraly gray", "do whatever asked".
|
| Sounds a lot like how we've needed up with the current
| nightmare in big tech.
| dgb23 wrote:
| Ah yes, obedient workers. But also creative and open minded.
| And autonomous. Well as long as they are autonomously doing
| the thing I want. Scratch the creative part, I'm already
| creative enough! Also loyalty is super important - for them
| of course. I reserve the privilege to lay them off or fire
| them - business is business after all.
| aulin wrote:
| I believe he put it in a wrong way but he has a valid
| point. How can you be so passionate about working in a
| place you never worked at? there's a big risk you're just
| in love with the idea and you'll be deluded once you
| experience it first hand. It's a risky hire if the day to
| day job doesn't match his big expectations.
| glenneroo wrote:
| Isn't that what probation periods are for?
| dgb23 wrote:
| I agree with the point. Fully. I think this would be a
| good thing to try and clear up during hiring if the
| candidate is inexperienced or seems to have trouble with
| commitment.
|
| However when reading the above the tone seemed
| ridiculously over the top, which is why I tuned in.
| xwdv wrote:
| > However when reading the above the tone seemed
| ridiculously over the top, which is why I tuned in.
|
| Mission Accomplished.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > It's silly how often employers overlook the "I just really
| want to be part of/build this" factor. People with that make
| for excellent teammates.
|
| Every startup I've been a part of has picked up a few extremely
| passionate but not necessarily fully qualified people along the
| way. It's _hard_ to turn down an enthusiastic candidate who
| really, really likes your company, so they 're often given a
| chance.
|
| Some of them turned out to be excellent teammates who did
| everything necessary to grow into the role.
|
| But sadly, many of them just wanted to be startup people
| without doing the startup grunt work. Worst case, someone with
| a lot of passion that goes in a different direction than the
| founders can become a drag on the company or create a lot of
| conflict. (NOTE: I'm speaking generally, not implying this is
| the case with the linked author)
|
| Passionate people are _generally_ good when their skills and
| wants align with the company, but if they 're not well-aligned
| then the passion just amplifies every conflict.
| mtc010170 wrote:
| Well said, and this is especially a great point:
|
| > Passionate people are generally good when their skills and
| wants align with the company, but if they're not well-aligned
| then the passion just amplifies every conflict.
|
| I'm starting to see where my original comment was definitely
| oversimplifying the depths of this topic.
| convolvatron wrote:
| I agree completely. I have a pattern of joining projects
| because I really love the idea and the concept, but upon
| landing find out they are doing it _all wrong_.
|
| and generally in these situations I find my criticism to be
| too deep and cross cutting to really be accepted or be
| really actionable.
|
| so yeah, I think dialing up the passion just increases the
| magnitude of the risk or reward.
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| > "I just really want to be part of/build this" factor. People
| with that make for excellent teammates.
|
| Not always. You want to be a part of something/build something,
| and then you want to build it YOUR way. Or you see an obvious
| hole and then an ugly battle between your ego and that of the
| chief architect ensues.
|
| Also, there may be cases when you want to be a part of
| something, meet your heroes, and then it all goes pear-shaped.
| Because you shouldn't meet your heroes.
|
| And sometimes it's better to have mercenaries who don't
| necessary believe in the same thing as you but care a lot about
| their own reputation and take pride in having done a good job.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| I suspect that it often does not hold and people are not
| completely honest about it.
| Evan__ wrote:
| I think it's less that it doesn't hold and more that many
| people saying this are being disingenuous.
| 40four wrote:
| I don't understand the title? How do you get 'rejected' by Code
| Academy? It's not a 'boot camp' with an application process. You
| either do the free lessons offered, or pay up for one of the
| 'Pro' level tiers.
|
| This title seems sensational, and it's misleading to people not
| familiar with Code Academy. Considering that, it doesn't sell me
| on this product. In fact it makes me not even want to look at the
| lessons offered, since the premise feels dishonest.
|
| Edit: I don't think I'm the only one that read it that way based
| in other comments. Honest mistake, it looks like English is not
| the authors first language.
| weswpg wrote:
| > I don't understand the title? How do you get 'rejected' by
| Code Academy? It's not a 'boot amp' with an application
| process. You either do the free lessons offered, or pay up for
| one of the 'Pro' level tiers.
|
| From his blog:
|
| > I've applied to work at Codecademy three times, once in 2014,
| again in 2015, and most recently in 2020. I've been rejected
| all three times. I wanted to prove to myself I was capable of
| building something like it, so I decided to build my own
| version.
| 40four wrote:
| Thanks, I didn't dig deep enough to find the _edit_ blog
| buried at the bottom. That definitely clears things up.
| weswpg wrote:
| > Thanks, I didn't dig deep enough to find the boy buried
| at the bottom. That definitely clears things up.
|
| ...there's a boy buried at the bottom? i hope that's a
| typo!
| 40four wrote:
| Lol, fixed it. But 'boy' was funnier!
| plondon514 wrote:
| Si ingles es mi lengua materna, pero hablo Espanol tambien.
| edgartaor wrote:
| Oh. Es raro ver espanol en hacker news
| HiroProtagonist wrote:
| I think he applied to work there and was rejected, as opposed
| to applying as a student.
| 40four wrote:
| Thanks, that makes more sense. Totally misread that. The blog
| post was buried at the bottom didn't make it that far.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| I assumed he meant rejected as a job candidate.
| csours wrote:
| So this is completely unrelated to the YouTube Channel
| amigoscode? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SGDpanrc8U
| grifball wrote:
| >My favorite part of the photographic process was watching prints
| come to life. I loved starting with a blank sheet of paper and
| applying various photographic methods to bring the image to life.
|
| >I found that building websites was similarly satisfying. For
| example, click the "Reveal Image" button to watch an image fade
| in to the blank canvas!
|
| I think a lot about why I went into computer science and this is
| the same conclusion I came to. There's something really cool
| about starting with a blank page and coding in elements that
| appear one by one and adapting the code to be what you want.
| Maybe there's other ways to do it but programming seemed to be
| the most powerful.
|
| Just to be clear, it was video games, not photography that kinda
| nudged me into programming, but same idea with a blank canvas and
| having control of it.
| duxup wrote:
| That's kinda what did AND didn't work for me when it came to
| programming.
|
| In college my first class was a class about C, the instructor
| read from the book (that appeared to be written about C for
| people who already knew C...) and then you worked on the
| assignment.
|
| I didn't have the patience at that age to work that way and
| dropped the class / decided programming wasn't for me.
|
| I did some other tech things and decades later ended up working
| with a bunch of engineers at a company and realized that we
| understood each other / how we worked really well. Company was
| bought out and I had time to think about what to do next.
|
| By this time the world of web development and web apps had
| taken off and there was so much information available / folks
| sharing the land of programming seemed entirely different to
| me. Attended a boot camp and everything just clicked, the
| immediacy of producing something in a web app (even if it
| broke) really drove home what I was doing and so on. I've been
| happily coding since then.
| albrewer wrote:
| Similar thing happened to me. I had to take a C++ course
| (with C++ 2008 on Windows) and hated the way it was taught. I
| conflated that with hating programming. After I finished my
| engineering degree, I got frustrated with repetitive tedious
| manual processes, so I started automating them. As my skill
| grew, I realized I liked programming more than I liked being
| a mechanical engineer. Now I write code full time, but I'd be
| way farther ahead if I'd just got the CS degree to start
| with.
| papito wrote:
| For me, programming was like being a little god in my own
| little world. For an introvert especially, it was exhilarating.
| You write a command, and it obeys. When you see something on
| screen is even more satisfying.
|
| In fact, the all-night coding binges happen because in an
| intense period of learning, you are producing a ton of
| adrenaline, and that annihilates sleep. (Sorry, working, don't
| care to look for the study right now). But it checks out.
| satisfice wrote:
| And when I was a kid, it was the only world that I COULD
| control.
|
| But then I went professional and that felt a little like how
| the Old Testament God must have felt: overwhelmed and
| irritable.
| lukedoolittle wrote:
| I feel like for a lot of us, at its most basic level, software
| development is truly creative. It's not the activity that
| people traditionally associate with the term "creative outlet"
| but for me at least it's akin to combining human emotional
| experience and music theory to compose a song or a flavor
| inspiration and the 12 tastes in food to create a dish. Even
| further as I've moved into a Machine Learning Engineer role the
| creative aspect needn't even be sensual, like visual or
| auditory, it could be totally abstract: I find the concept of
| some of the tensorflow graphs I have created to be beautiful
| even though they are way too complex to visualize (suck it
| tensorboard).
| jart wrote:
| > suck it tensorboard
|
| The poor little TensorBoard is crying right now because you
| didn't love it.
| squiggy22 wrote:
| Completely agree. I wonder what it is about programming
| something from nothing that still makes people think it isn't
| a creative pursuit. The Venn diagram of writers, painters,
| guitarists and programmers needs to be more heavily
| advertised to get past this stigma of engineer meaning some
| boring old fart typing mindless code at a keyboard.
| susam wrote:
| My introduction to computers was similar. I began by learning
| turtle graphics in the Logo programming language during my
| childhood days. It allowed me to be creative and draw pictures
| on a blank canvas using code. Back then, for me, programming
| was not about solving useful problems. Instead it was about
| expressing whatever random ideas come to mind.
|
| Quoting a relevant excerpt from my own blog post[1] that I
| wrote sometime back:
|
| > FD 100
|
| > That is the "hello, world" of turtle graphics in Logo. That
| simple line of code changed my world. I could make stuff happen
| in an otherwise mostly blank monochrome CRT display. Until then
| I had seen CRTs in televisions where I had very little control
| on what I see on the screen. But now, I had control! The turtle
| became my toy and I could make it draw anything on a 320 x 250
| canvas.
|
| [1] https://susam.in/blog/fd-100.html
| madaxe_again wrote:
| Similar sort of experience, although we had no turtle, so it
| was BASIC on the MICRO for us. 10 MODE 7
| 20 PRINT CHR$141"A text adventure" 30 PRINT CHR$141"A
| text adventure"
|
| May as well have been the opening bars of Beethoven's 5th,
| for the infinite and incredible possibilities which followed.
| Anything. I could make _anything_. It was the most incredible
| sensation and realisation - and still is.
| type_enthusiast wrote:
| For me, it was QBasic under MS-DOS.
| SCREEN 13
|
| is the start of endless possibilities!
|
| I think this kind of experience is missing for kids now -
| but I'd guess it's more about how ubiquitous computers are,
| and how there's a lot more between the kid and the
| computer. When a CLI is your interface, making even
| rudimentary graphics feels like achieving magic. When your
| interface is a cell phone or GUI, there's a much larger
| leap from zero to "feels like magic" - OK, so I made a
| circle bounce around the screen... there's already an app
| that does that.
| CreepGin wrote:
| Me too. I learned LOGO in the 90's during 3rd grade. Now
| thinking back, it was probably an important defining moment
| in my life because it let me experience creativity through
| coding and visual feedback (and also the constant discovery
| of new ways of using the various commands).
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| Yep, same same, but different. For me it was music and sound,
| starting with a blank canvas and mixing in digital signals and
| controls to build something out. Could have been with a DAW,
| but programming was just a more flexible and free-form blank-
| canvas for self expression.
|
| ...although I also got a kick out of "remixing" Windows 95. And
| "remixing" video games (Civ and Colonization were particularly
| great because they were SO EASY to edit both assets and
| configuration). So many custom mouse cursors, shutdown screens,
| start-up sounds, etc etc.
| agumonkey wrote:
| as opposed to inheriting legacy goldberg machines or walking on
| quicksand (by quicksand I mean constantly changing librarires
| fatigue)
| evilhackerdude wrote:
| Reminds me of my first programming experience as a 10 year old
| kid. My dad showed me the QBASIC IDE. He typed one line of
| code: PRINT "Ach leck mich doch am Buerzel"
|
| And hit Run - Start...
|
| I broke out in laughter, realizing I can make _real_ grey-on-
| black DOS programs just like that. It blew my mind and started
| my programming career.
| jrm4 wrote:
| Old timer who had an Apple II as a kid, and the experience I
| try to sneak into every class I teach is: 10
| PRINT "John is Awesome"; 20 GOTO 10
|
| This little gem is the beginning of it all. Little me is
| understanding, okay, so if I'm willing to put in the time and
| thought, the machine will obey and I I have the literal power
| of infinity at my fingertips.
| krumpet wrote:
| 10 PRINT "You are correct, sir!"
|
| 20 GOTO 10
|
| * Edited for formatting
| hasmanean wrote:
| I once wrote my daughter a similar BASIC program...she
| immediately changed it to her sisters name and wrote "S is
| stupid" and said "see, the computer said so so it must be
| true."
|
| I tried to reach her programming but she schooled me in AI-
| hype.
| pickledcods wrote:
| And then reading the manual to discover the other things it
| could do
| ct520 wrote:
| Love it, in first grade I use to remove the 5 1/4 inch mid
| game to get to the command prompt and do this. Thought it was
| the coolest thing ever.
| atomicnumber3 wrote:
| This gets me too. In high school I called it "the power of a
| blank text file." Something about knowing that this was how
| every great software product began life was very empowering and
| intoxicating to me.
|
| When you open vim and look at the blinking cursor, you stand on
| the precipice of greatness in the shoes of every programmer who
| has ever lived, all of you united across space and time by that
| peculiar feeling you get when you peer into the infinite
| possibilities of your empty text file.
| O_H_E wrote:
| Wow, that is such a well written quote.
|
| I hope to one day remember and shamelessly cite it around.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I suppose this is what "high self-effiacy"[0] means.
|
| I've only recently learned this word/concept, but your quote
| fits. You see a blank text file, you see an interesting
| challenge, something you're sure will lead you somewhere
| nice. I'm gonna admit - I'm the opposite. A blank text file
| _scares me_. I don 't know what to do. I spend a lot of time
| agonizing over what I want to write, trying to desperately
| narrow the space of possibilities until I have the design[1]
| sharp in my head, and _only then_ I 'm able to actually write
| anything in that empty file.
|
| I guess I'm the "low self-effiacy" kind of person.
|
| --
|
| [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-efficacy
|
| [1] - Or at least the first iteration of it.
| Jenk wrote:
| This may come across as facetious and/or condescending,
| despite my intentions to be to give actual advice here...
| Learning TDD is what helped me get past this. It's surely
| not the only way to do it but it really made it click when
| I did.
|
| In learning the craftsman style of TDD (i.e., the fluffy
| altruistic style) helped me to grok breaking down tasks,
| not because I wasn't able to have a detailed view of the
| big picture in my head, but because I simply didn't need
| to. It's also ok to change what you've already done. The
| guidelines for code modularity and separation are there to
| make this process of change and evolution easier, not just
| to make the system arch and code pretty, but because it
| should be expected to change and evolve your code as you
| develop the system - in both the short and long term.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| It doesn't come across as facetious/condescending. Thank
| you for your advice.
|
| I'm actually using a TDD-ish approach in my work, but I
| never felt comfortable letting it actually drive design
| decisions. I don't believe it works that way - I can
| explore the design space up front and pick good solutions
| faster than it would take me to organically arrive at
| them through applying orthodox TDD.
|
| I'd like to do more TDD-ish approach, because the design
| process feels way too slow to me. The problem is,
| refactoring involved in test-driven design discovery _is
| even slower_. I constantly feel bottlenecked by the speed
| of tooling we use - and not on the surface level (I have
| my Emacs configured well, thank you), but at a
| fundamental one. Programming languages are not expressive
| enough. The whole approach of writing code as plaintext
| document is not ergonomic enough.
|
| When I'm sitting in front of an empty text file, staring
| at the sea of infinite possibilities, all I feel is
| _dread_ - the fear of how much effort I 'm going to spend
| fighting tools to conceptualize my design, how much time
| I'm going to waste dealing with infrastructure, build
| systems, dependency management, constructing intermediary
| layers, writing and rewriting tests...
| ntonauta wrote:
| This resonates well with me. I too have my Emacs well
| configured and I dread the blank canvas. I think it also
| might have to do with me being an avid procrastinator.
| epolanski wrote:
| I am like you too. I'm not fond of blank projects where I
| can let creativity thrive. I would not know what to do. But
| give me a piece of paper and an idea and I can roughly
| detail all requirements for the project, create a backlog
| and tasks for a week. I'm more interested into the coding
| challenge offered by the work. I get more satisfaction in
| finding the best solution than in the result.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I know that feeling. It's a godlike feeling. We start with
| literally nothing and we create whole a universe inside the
| computer. A personal virtual universe that reflects our minds
| and our understanding. We are the gods of these realms.
| notjustanymike wrote:
| I've had to focus on accessibility in our product lately, and
| learning to use a screenreader created a whole new version of
| this concept.
| indiantinker wrote:
| Love them! Reminds me of Larry David opening a Coffee Shop in
| Curb your Enthusiasm.
|
| I call them spite-sites.
| masterof0 wrote:
| I just hope you can do number 2 there. ;)
| z3c0 wrote:
| I believe the internet equivalent of "going number 2" would
| just be a comment section. Seems easy enough.
| masterof0 wrote:
| haha yes
| diomio wrote:
| with blackjack and hookers
| nvr219 wrote:
| In fact, forget the coding!
| jason_zig wrote:
| This is great - love the frictionless signup and onboarding
| experience. I'm planning to teach my niece some basic programming
| stuff (moving on from scratch) and this seems like a great way to
| put together some mini-lessons that are quick and rewarding.
| pipnonsense wrote:
| Ha! I have a kind of similar [0] story with Substack.
|
| I couldn't get to work there (I really wanted to) so created a _"
| read fiction on your email"_ side-project[1], which evolved to a
| more ambitious _" substack for fiction"_ project:
| https://www.confabulistas.com.br (for Brazilian market, so in
| portuguese).
|
| [0] "Kind of" because I couldn't even apply. Very early on I
| exchanged a few emails with the founder and they wouldn't hire
| remote. Then months later a recruiter reached out, but they
| wouldn't hire remote still. Then they started to hire remote, so
| I sent an email to the recruiter to apply, but they only hire
| remote _in the US_. So I wasn 't exactly "rejected", but
| prevented from applying.
|
| [1] https://www.serialliterature.com It got to the front page of
| HN when I launched.
| agustif wrote:
| If you're a freelance or equivalent, you should apply anyways
| to those Remote (US) positions, YMMV, but since you can be
| treated as an external provider, they don't care about where
| you reside as long as it makes sense with timezones and such
| for meetings etc...
|
| That's my experience at least, have worked for some US
| companies remotely from europe that way anyways
| OJFord wrote:
| I've wondered about that when I've seen it described as 'US
| timezones' or similar, which on the face of it seems to just
| mean the Americas (modulo I have no idea if maybe Canada or
| somewhere South has an extra one not used in the USA) - but
| maybe it suggests they're pretty open to anyone anywhere who
| convincingly says they'll work Pacific (or whatever) hours.
| Good to hear it's worked out for you.
| officialchicken wrote:
| Leading a team spanning more than 8 timezones is hard - but
| what it usually means is they don't know how to manage
| (read: trust) and have no leadership experience with remote
| teams. The factory/assembly line of managing teams is still
| common - they don't really understand how to asynchronously
| build software itself. Many employers in the US are
| particularly keen on NOT hiring in the EU because of the
| significant difference in both contract and employment laws
| in the two regions, whereas in Asia is cheap enough and
| there are plenty of contracting or outsourcing firms to
| help manage that requirement.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I've never been on a team where having people spread the
| globe worked well. In fact, just this morning I got off a
| 7 am (PDT) call with people at 7:30 pm (IST), and as
| always I was thinking "this sucks for all of us". I don't
| believe there's a clever hack that can optimize around
| the circumference of the planet.
| FredPret wrote:
| Dig a deep hole and build a conference room in the middle
| of the globe!
| FredPret wrote:
| ...we'll call it Central Time
| convolvatron wrote:
| the one caveat I've found is that if you _can_ get it
| running you get a two or three stroke engine instead of a
| single one. its absolutely fantastic to wake up and find
| out that not only was the problem solved but we solved
| another one and we're on the next.
|
| that memory is pretty tarnished by all the other times I
| couldn't even get very much done because the night team
| is asleep and its completely unclear where we are - not
| only did they not make any progress but they actually
| left things in a bit of a mess.
| smegger001 wrote:
| I beleive Nefoundland Canada is in its own time zone
| outside any the US has. but unlike most time zones it is
| off by 30 minutes.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Yes, Newfoundland has it's very own timezone, 2.5 hours
| off from Central time.
| pipnonsense wrote:
| Yeah, I got this advice before and it makes sense. Even if I
| was looking for more of a "full-time-like" position that
| would happen to hire through a 1099 contract (not exactly
| sure if it's that form exactly for foreign contractors).
|
| I ended up finding a job exactly like that on a small
| startup, so I am happy. But next time I am in the market, I
| will for sure apply to those _" Remote(US)"_ jobs. Even
| though, in Substack case, the internal recruiter that told me
| that I couldn't apply.
| mettamage wrote:
| Wait, so how do you propose this in a way that they will take
| it? Simply mention that you're a freelancer and then they
| know it's fine, or how do you introduce this in a handy way?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That works if they are willing to treat you as a contractor
| (external provider as you say), but if they're hiring remote
| employees it won't fly. The company generally has to have a
| presence in the jurisdiction where the employee lives, and
| that adds overhead.
| anyfactor wrote:
| That is my experience also. As a freelance dev, I am hired
| as a foreign contractor.
|
| Being hired as a foreign contractor makes tax and
| regulations issues easier. If you are growing rapidly, You
| can open an LLC in America then operate as a US contractor.
| You can work with larger and established companies that
| way. It would be easier if you have a business partner in
| America.
|
| Hiring contractor has its pros and cons for both parties
| but usuaully it is quite different than hiring an employee.
| pzo wrote:
| I was always curious about this: Is there any reason why
| you need LLC in America to work with larger and
| established companies? Is there any law or limitation why
| they wouldn't like to work with e.g. European Self-
| Employed or LTD companies? Many of recruiters I talked to
| and they offered perm roles they won't consider changing
| to contractors.
|
| Always thought that generally contractors are a better
| deal for companies (less tax burden, no paid holidays,
| easier to hire/fire, etc). Unless maybe when people here
| word 'contractor' they assume they will have to pay 2x
| more and that's why they prefer perm-employees? Or is
| there are any law in US that make it harder for companies
| to work this way?
| agustif wrote:
| I think the main problem is depending in your
| jurisdiction, if all your employees are contractors, and
| they are long time, which is actually masquerading-as-
| contractors, you can get in trouble, in Germany for
| example I think it's two years max.
|
| Since this is a difficult subject, YMMV
| Heliosmaster wrote:
| This sounds a lot like Athens Research[1] vs Roam Research[2].
| Jeff Tang wanted to get a job at Roam so he built a toy open
| source version for themselves, and then continued and it's now
| a YC company [3]
|
| [1]: https://www.athensresearch.org/
|
| [2]: https://roamresearch.com/
|
| [3]: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/athens-research
| yayr wrote:
| the app for "build your own crypto wallet" is essentially:
|
| const App = ( <div> <h1>Hello Bitcoin!</h1> </div> );
|
| curious about version 0.0.2 ;-)
| hstan4 wrote:
| Think you're missing the "next" button at the bottom haha
| plondon514 wrote:
| Yeah that's definitely Step 1, but there are a few more steps
| that dive into how mnemonics are created, their importance, and
| how addresses get derived.
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| F. it! Build your own! congrats.
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