[HN Gopher] I've been reading a whole lot about tomatoes
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I've been reading a whole lot about tomatoes
Author : feltsense
Score : 43 points
Date : 2021-10-25 19:45 UTC (3 hours ago)
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(TXT) w3m dump (buttondown.email)
| opinion-is-bad wrote:
| Interesting, but not that dissimilar to the United States. I grow
| a couple thousand acres of tomatoes in California, all of which
| are for processing into juices and pastes. These tomatoes are all
| transported in open-topped trailers by semi, and the losses have
| always bothered me. There is a tight turn just after leaving our
| property and the pile of tomatoes there grows steadily with the
| season as they roll off the top of the trailers. There isn't much
| option for us though, and those losses are taken by the
| processing company.
|
| Interesting fact about tomatoes: if you grow tomatoes for
| multiple years on the same field your yields will drop to zero
| due to fusarium fungus destroying the crop. We rotate one year
| tomatoes with one strand of alfalfa, which lasts 3-5 years and
| regenerates nitrogen into the soil.
| hinkley wrote:
| If memory serves, that fungus family attacks all nightshades,
| not just tomatoes, right? So you can't rotate potatoes or
| eggplant or you get the same problems.
| fy20 wrote:
| For anyone who didn't know this: tomato, tomatillo, potato,
| eggplant, pepper and tobacco are all from the same family
| Solanaceae aka nightshade.
|
| There are many other plants in the same family (they have
| worldwide distribution), but a lot of them are poisonous.
|
| Even more fun: It's possible to graft plants of different
| species within the family, so you can create a plant that
| grows both potatoes and tomatoes.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomato
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| It's not that much of a loss for them. If you are growing for
| someone like morning star, they have tightened the supply chain
| so well that every step is precisely executed. The reason they
| are open topped is because they go straight to processing and
| get washed and graded and processed even before they are
| weighed. It's beautiful how the system has been designed.
| Closing the tops is probably saving less than a few pennies per
| pound but it's not worth disrupting or delaying the operations
| systems. Processing company contract out every step of the
| growing process from nursery to transplanting services to
| harvesting. Chris Rufer is a model most of us should strive to
| be..he has perfected tomato processing to an art form.
| Wistar wrote:
| The fusarium fungus fact is truly useful info. Thank you.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Kind of a tangent but this really makes me think about this
| problem I see with thinking in Silicon Valley. It seems to be a
| common belief that if someone is solving a problem they have with
| some product or service, they are helping everyone in the world.
| But the rest of the world is very unlike Silicon Valley. Someone
| making an app to help them book a masseuse is not going to be
| solving problems for people who cannot afford to transport their
| tomatoes in refrigerated trucks.
|
| I strongly believe that the best way to help people in other
| places very different from our own is to open source the best of
| what we know. Everything we rely on. For example instead of
| buying refrigerated trucks from an expensive European suppler
| (let's suppose) they could clone the designs and manufacture
| refrigeration more cheaply. Such an effort would take time but if
| we shared the plans for everything we rely on, someone could make
| it cheaper and offer it to those with less income. A free market
| of manufacturers would compete based on who can manufacture goods
| the cheapest, rather than who can both design them and
| manufacture them.
|
| Maybe refrigeration is already generic enough that this
| particular item would not get cheaper, but in general if
| everything was open source then people in places like this would
| be more able to manufacture what they really need even if they
| lack certain technical skills required to design the things. And
| with trade normalization required by the WTO, many of these
| companies cannot clone certain useful goods due to patent
| restrictions.
|
| We are so wealthy in the USA and yet we do not often consider
| sharing our wealth in this way with every other person sharing
| this time with us.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| Growing and transporting tomatoes in Africa is a whole diff ball
| game than in other parts of the world. Farming is just a tiny
| slice of Ag. Supply chain is the biggest team player.
|
| Also: processing tomatoes and tomatoes eaten out of the hand are
| two diff markets. Everything from genetics to harvest to inputs
| is different.
| JacobDotVI wrote:
| I wonder if they can charge more for the non-cold-chain tomatoes
| due to better flavor:
|
| >Cold storage is widely used to extend shelf-life of agriculture
| products. For tomato, this handling results in reduced flavor
| quality. Our work provides major insights into the effects of
| chilling on consumer liking, the flavor metabolome and
| transcriptome, as well as DNA methylation status.
|
| from: https://www.pnas.org/content/113/44/12580
| ModernMech wrote:
| Yeah, I grew some tomatoes on my balcony this summer, and the
| way they taste compared to what I would buy at the store you
| would think they are completely different fruits. I would pay
| maybe 30% more for a sandwich with fresh tomatoes as opposed to
| the.... red slime that usually come on them.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| I've considered a "startup" in this space before. Take all
| the equipment, knowhow and enthusiasm of the cannabis
| industry and apply it to tomatoes. Grow them next to
| customers, under lights with highly controlled conditions and
| an obsessive focus on flavour. Guarantee less than 24hrs
| picked-to-delivered.
|
| My research (napkin math) suggested that it would be doable
| at $8-10/lb, which is certainly high, but probably low enough
| to attract connoisseurs, high-end restaurants, and regular
| folks who like to treat themselves. It would be especially
| valuable during the winter, when you just can't get a proper
| tomato.
| ginko wrote:
| I think this would work well in places like Norway where
| electricity and water is cheap and people are used to food
| being expensive already.
| davidhunter wrote:
| Yep: https://www.hortidaily.com/article/9309162/norway-s-
| nursery-...
| davidhunter wrote:
| Exactly what we're doing (optimal.ag). Interestingly, the
| cannabis industry has taken all the equipment, knowhow and
| enthusiasm of the (Dutch) tomato industry and applied it to
| cannabis - not the other way around.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| First time I flew into Amsterdam it was dusk and I was
| mesmerized by the seemingly endless fields of greenhouses
| growing weed. Only years later (after telling everyone
| about it) did I learn they were actually growing produce
| :D
|
| Dutch tomatoes have a reputation for being bland ("water
| bombs"), is making more flavourfull ones just product
| focus? Like picking the right varietal, picking them at
| the right time, delivering quickly, etc?
| lathyrus_long wrote:
| Beyond genetics and environment, soil/nutrient fertility
| also affects the taste. For example, drought-stressing
| tomatoes near harvest generally improves flavor at the
| cost of yield, both by the obvious mechanism of adding
| less water and by more complicated interactions with the
| biosynthesis of flavor compounds.
|
| In hydroponics the same improvement is achieved by
| increasing the nutrient solution concentration (since
| that's what drought stress looks like to the roots),
| often literally with salt, NaCl. Growers will typically
| describe this as raising the solution electrical
| conductivity, EC, since that's an easily-measured proxy
| for total dissolved ionic stuff. Hand-held EC meters cost
| a few dollars, or large systems often run with closed-
| loop measurement and dosing similar to my
|
| https://github.com/hydromisc/hydromisc
| davidhunter wrote:
| >First time I flew into Amsterdam it was dusk and I was
| mesmerized by the seemingly endless fields of greenhouses
| growing weed. Only years later (after telling everyone
| about it) did I learn they were actually growing produce
| :D
|
| Lol - yeah the production of cannabis is not yet
| legalised in The Netherlands.
|
| This is a great article on the Dutch greenhouse industry
| (unfortunately behind paywall): https://www.nationalgeogr
| aphic.com/magazine/article/holland-...
|
| >Dutch tomatoes have a reputation for being bland ("water
| bombs"), is making more flavourfull ones just product
| focus? Like picking the right varietal, picking them at
| the right time, delivering quickly, etc?
|
| I've heard this before too. Maybe this was a thing at one
| point in history but it's not true any more. If you go
| into a supermarket today in Europe then all the tomatoes
| on offer will have been grown in greenhouses. The low-end
| stuff will have been grown in Spanish/Moroccan low-tech
| greenhouses (plastic tunnels). The higher-end stuff will
| have been grown in Dutch glasshouses.
| pvaldes wrote:
| I wouldn't call it "Low-tech" greenhouses in Spain. Is
| exactly the same stuff than dutch ones, the same seeds
| and the same bumblebees and the same chemicals, except by
| the Mediterranean climate and much more sun. (And I
| wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the Dutch
| tomatoes sold at an extra price are really cultured in
| Spain by Dutch companies).
| [deleted]
| webnrrd2k wrote:
| Brown tomatoes are showing up in more grocery stores now, and
| have a much better tomato flavor than beefsteak tomatoes.
| They are often sold in a sleeve of six or so, or labeled as
| "kumatos". Really, give them a try - they are much better
| than regular store tomatoes.
| Wistar wrote:
| I have seen brown ones packaged as you described but
| labeled as Capri. Maybe they aren't the same but they are a
| lot better than the average commercial tomato.
| JacobDotVI wrote:
| I keep hoping that one of these shipping container farms will
| support tomatoes due to this issue. Unfortunately, I have yet
| to find any (although some claim version N will be tomatoes).
| My hunch is that they can't grow tomatoes dense enough to
| make the economics work.
| nhoughto wrote:
| and for something slightly more accessible and with photos =)
| on the same topic:
|
| https://www.seriouseats.com/why-you-should-refrigerate-tomat...
| davidhunter wrote:
| We (Optimal Agriculture) have built an autonomous growing system
| for high-tech greenhouses and have achieved 'superhuman'
| performance in a recent tomato trial. We collect a bunch of
| sensory data about the crop and growing environment, run cloud-
| based optimisation, and then control the actuators of the
| greenhouse autonomously (lighting, screening, heating, cooling,
| irrigation, etc). We are turning $100M greenhouse facilities into
| IoT-connected-devices and then building an intelligence layer on
| top.
|
| We are now building a commercial-scale facility in the US which
| will produce 50,000kg of fresh produce daily. And then we will
| scale from there.
|
| Our goal is to accelerate the deployment of new greenhouses
| around the world to increase the availability of healthy locally-
| grown food and to secure our food system for the future.
|
| Find out more about our mission:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDJ_QdUaap4
|
| If you want to find out more about us or generally want to geek
| out on tommies then give me (founder) a shout: david@optimal.ag
| knicholes wrote:
| What do you mean by "cloud-based optimization?" Are you running
| reinforcement learning algorithm(s) on these plants?
| davidhunter wrote:
| Yes we use techniques from RL as one of our technologies -
| its my personal research background
| eutectic wrote:
| How do you model the crop response to environmental factors?
| Did you have to run experiments?
| davidhunter wrote:
| Take everything we know from plant sciences as a starting
| point and then generate additional data through actually
| growing the crop and measuring impulse/response with sensors.
| pcrh wrote:
| Just for the density of jargon, this is quite an amusing post.
| I just hope your project is actually working out, though I
| can't tell from what you wrote.
| RobRivera wrote:
| cloud based optimization is superior to on organic compute
| optimization how?
| opinion-is-bad wrote:
| How many square meters will that facility be, and what is the
| cost to construct? At $100M I don't see how it would be
| financially viable.
|
| 50k kg a day is approximately 600 acres of tomatoes with our
| yields. That much land in CA might sell for $6-30M depending on
| water rights and latitude.
| femto wrote:
| You may be interested to know about Costas Group in
| Australia. They have gone the high tech route, cramming every
| bit of productive technology into their greenhouses. They are
| an established company listed on Australia's stock exchange
| (ASX:CGC), so can be taken to have proved the viability of
| such technology. I gather their share price and the size of
| their profit is a bit of a roller coaster ride, but they do
| make a profit each year. They mention yields of 70kg/m^2/year
| (=50000kg/day from 65 acres). I assume that's per square
| metre of greenhouse and not per square meter of growing bed.
|
| https://thefarmermagazine.com.au/the-costa-group-is-a-
| runawa...
|
| https://www.tradefarmmachinery.com.au/features/1408/costa-
| gr...
|
| Edit: Article also mentions a 100kg/m^2/year target.
| davidhunter wrote:
| We'll be getting over 100kg/m2/year. Construction varies but
| typically $450/m2 for a lit greenhouse.
| opinion-is-bad wrote:
| Definitely a good opportunity for selling the higher value
| tomatoes restaurants and some upscale markets desire. I
| like the emission benefits of shorter supply chains too.
| Best of luck, I doubt our tomatoes will be competing with
| each other anytime soon.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| He is doing tomatoes eaten out of hand vs your processing
| tomatoes. They might as well be different vegetables.(or
| fruits as this is a tomato)
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Are you optimizing for any experiential aspects of your
| tomatoes, like taste or texture? Personally, in my area
| tomatoes are cheap enough to not think about the price, but the
| products widely available from supermarkets taste like water
| davidhunter wrote:
| > Are you optimizing for any experiential aspects of your
| tomatoes, like taste or texture?
|
| Yes - but this mainly comes down to the varieties that you
| grow. You can grow varieties that are very tasty and are
| usually sold in the premium tier. And you can grow high-
| yielding tomatoes with less taste.
|
| >Personally, in my area tomatoes are cheap enough to not
| think about the price, but the products widely available from
| supermarkets taste like water
|
| Where are you based? High-tech greenhouses already supply a
| lot of premium-tier produce in Europe but there is an
| undersupply in the US/Asia.
| turk- wrote:
| Interesting. I've always wondered why tomatoes in the US
| taste like shit. Why is there a trade off between high
| yield and taste? Is there not a high yield + great taste
| variety?
| amirhirsch wrote:
| I have been somewhat obsessed with the idea of floating
| greenhouses. The economics are different than operating a farm
| on land but with automation it could be possible to deliver
| superior produce directly to coastal population centers at
| lower costs.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| It will fail. Other than the novelty of floating greenhouses,
| how do you think this will work?
| nyanpasu64 wrote:
| > One of my former classmates in undergrad is a Visiting
| Researcher at Purdue in the Agricultural Engineering department;
| he tells me that many tomato transporters actually own or rent
| fuel tankers that they fill in the South to sell at a markup in
| the North. In order to make some extra cash on the trip South
| with the empty tanker, they carry tomatoes.
|
| > I know what you might be thinking: is it even sanitary to
| transport tomatoes that close to gasoline? But that is the least
| of the issues plaguing these transporters, the biggest one is
| that they lose about 12% of the tomatoes in a two-day trip.
|
| This doesn't sound safe :(
| pcrh wrote:
| The article shows raffia baskets containing tomatoes strapped
| to the top of fuel tankers. So they're not transported within
| the same space as the fuel.
| 0des wrote:
| An interesting tidbit about tomatoes, and other nightshades: They
| contain nicotine!
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10552617/
| treeman79 wrote:
| Nightshades are also inflammatory for some autoimmune
| conditions.
| atombender wrote:
| Supposedly because they contain glycoalkaloids. I'm not sure
| who invented the Autoimmune Protocol (AIP), but it seems to
| have the same scientifically questionable origins as Leaky
| Gut Syndrome. I have yet to see any scientific evidence
| supporting AIP.
|
| There's one study hypothesizing that glycoalkaloids can
| increase/aggravate intestinal permeability (which is a real
| thing), but this study only looked at mice [1]. The
| hypothesis has not been rigorously tested in any serious
| clinical study on humans.
|
| [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12479649/
| g8oz wrote:
| Here is one study on AIP
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/
| treeman79 wrote:
| It's also been life changing for me and many others with
| Sjogrens.
| rackjack wrote:
| Tomacco?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx1ztJROpyU
| colechristensen wrote:
| I am one of the rare people for which tomatoes taste like
| poison.
| Wistar wrote:
| That is a shame. Although I did not much like tomatoes until
| I was an adult, I certainly adore them today.
|
| But it is a trade-off. Apparently I got "tomatoes taste good"
| in return for my "cilantro tastes toxic."
| [deleted]
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| Tomatoes don't contain any alkaloids..nicotine is a very
| different kind of alkaloid. Tomatoes contain a diff kind of
| alkaloid from other nightshades. Tomatine levels drop as fruit
| ripens. Hardly addictive.
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| Having said that...if we want to talk about addictive
| alkaloids in our food.. Vanillin, Cocaine and Capsaicin are
| closely related alkaloids and all have addiction potential.
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