[HN Gopher] Percentage of Hacker News job postings that mention ...
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Percentage of Hacker News job postings that mention a remote option
2017-2021
Author : rinze
Score : 137 points
Date : 2021-10-24 15:02 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (rinzewind.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (rinzewind.org)
| zsmi wrote:
| You can find the source that generated the graph here:
| https://github.com/rinze/hn_remote/blob/main/hn_remote_main....
|
| I didn't go through the raw dataset (which is generated by this
| query, https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring) but
| two obvious issues with the count are, it didn't filter out
| duplicates and it's just grep'ing the post for the word remote.
| So for example, "remote work not allowed," counts as a posting
| for remote work.
|
| I have no doubt the demand for remote work is up but I am not
| sure this count accurately measures by how much, even for just
| hacker news postings.
| pzo wrote:
| On top of that 'remote' has many different meaning these days
| e.g:
|
| a) remote allowed but you have to be in the same city just in
| case we need you in office
|
| b) remote allowed but we need you at least 1 day in office
|
| c) remote allowed but you have to be in our country
|
| d) remote allowed but from time to time maybe you will need to
| be/fly to our office
|
| e) remote allowed for the time being but at one point after
| it's safe we need you in the office
| [deleted]
| mrfusion wrote:
| I'm surprised it was up to 20% before.
| hammock wrote:
| What is driving this trend?
| ResearchCode wrote:
| Companies made a concession to workers through Force majeure
| and workers realized office work is miserable and unproductive.
| Micro-managers try to herd the cattle back into offices but
| with mixed success.
| version_five wrote:
| Remote options are increasing, but I bet so is the use of
| "remote" as a promotional tool in job ads, where technically it's
| on the books but so infeasible as to be irrelevant when you look
| at how the job has to be performed (e.g. on site at clients or
| must be available for regular travel to city x)
| oceanplexian wrote:
| I think this is true, but in my experience almost every place I
| worked at, even those that didn't advertise being "Remote" had
| pretty flexible policies on remote work for engineers, at least
| in my anecdotal experience in San Francisco. 90% of the time if
| I asked my manager to take a week and work remotely from X
| location the response was "Cool, whatever". It was always an
| option but now they are advertising it as a perk. Especially
| the ads that say you can work one or two days from home per
| week, which is kind of ridiculous because everyone was already
| doing that anyway.
| a_imho wrote:
| This is my experience as well. Also the majority of 'remote'
| ads are only considering the US really, which is pretty
| tiresome to shift through. Then there are the ads where in
| theory it is possible to hire someone remotely but they would
| rather have someone from nearby (I totally get this sentiment,
| but there should be a more useful term for this instead of
| remote), and last but not least the remote-as-in-cost-cutting
| (contractors, outsourcing) where the final offer will be
| considered not on the skills or value add you would bring to
| the table, but rather where on the map you are located at.
| There are still only a handful of companies looking for remote
| employees.
|
| tldr; the revolution is still a bit further down the road
| ghaff wrote:
| >a more useful term for this instead of remote
|
| Flex or hybrid seems to be most common. So can work from home
| some days but will come into the office, possibly on a
| schedule, on a fairly regular basis. (With the implication
| you need to be within some semblance of commuting distance.)
|
| Nothing wrong with that of course. Flexibility is good but it
| obviously has constraints that full remote doesn't.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| That's not what the GP is saying though; the employer is
| not offering a mix (which as what my team almost
| universally wants) but "we want someone local but will
| consider remote as a second-place option". The later is the
| worst scenario for remote as it says there are two classes
| of employees: co-located, then remote. In this case, RUN!
| wakamoleguy wrote:
| Since the Y axis only goes to 80%, the chart appears at first to
| have a bigger absolute jump than it actually does. For example,
| it makes it harder to tell at a glance that there are about as
| many (percentage-wise) remote-not-ok postings now as there were
| remote-ok postings several years ago.
|
| The actual change _is_ amazing, though! It wouldn 't be possible
| to tell from the posts themselves, but I wonder how many of these
| roles are actually filled with remote workers. Do you think
| employers in that middle 60% seriously consider remote
| candidates, or are they just including it to fit in? Or perhaps
| the move towards remote work has led to more postings overall.
|
| Over time, I'm curious if we'll see statistics on tenure and
| engagement across remote and in-person employees. Are there
| similar examples from history where multiple small talent pools
| were (relatively suddenly) merged together into one big market?
| bgro wrote:
| "This is a remote position. You will be working remotely from
| your home, at our office."
| yosito wrote:
| It's interesting to me that, according to the 80-20 rule, the
| number of jobs mentioning remote went from "basically none" to
| "basically everything".
| jpgvm wrote:
| Having worked primarily remote for the last 10 years I welcome
| this change in general but also somewhat lament the loss of the
| old status quo.
|
| It's great because now many others that weren't as fortunate as
| me are now able to experience something I have had for a long
| time, many of my friends and family are enjoying new freedoms and
| greater amounts of personal time because commutes have been
| eliminated etc.
|
| The downside (however minor) is I can't easily use this as the
| same proxy for "company I think I would like to work for" that I
| did in the past. My old formula for evaluating opportunities was
| to filter for places that would accept full time remote and then
| filter for those willing to pay full market rates and then decide
| from there. The latter half of that funnel is still likely to be
| highly effective as companies attempt to lowball people by making
| it out like remote is some sort of luxury but the entry to the
| funnel just got a whole lot bigger so I need to do a ton more
| filtering now.
|
| I'm optimistic though, this has opened up a lot of companies I
| otherwise would have liked to work for but had draconian hiring
| policies w.r.t fully remote.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| I have worked remotely for about 7 years now. I share your
| sentiment.
|
| With that being said, the signals are still there - just a bit
| more nuanced. Gitlab has good terminology around this:
| https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/stages/
|
| My signals:
|
| * Do they talk about central office locations where certain
| people/groups of people work? Does being in that location give
| you advantage.
|
| * Do they expect you to be in the same chair/desk/location
| everyday? I don't care to do #vanlife, but I want the
| flexibility to work from a hotel/other location from time to
| time.
|
| * How does the team manage work hours? How much of the workday
| needs to be "the same". In my view, ideal teams have some core
| hours where it's easy to collaborate then leave it to
| individuals to round out a productive day elsewhere.
| jerf wrote:
| "Do they expect you to be in the same chair/desk/location
| everyday? I don't care to do #vanlife, but I want the
| flexibility to work from a hotel/other location from time to
| time."
|
| Huh. It literally never even _crossed my mind_ until you said
| that to care about where you are if you are remote. As long
| as you 're doing the job, what does it matter where the "not
| here" you are?
| mcspiff wrote:
| Could be anything from poor management to contractual/legal
| requirements. For one client, we had to fly from Canada to
| the US, but could work remotely from any US site. Usually
| the client would set us up with a nice office a short
| flight away from home base. There were very specific legal
| requirements for them, and I had the impression they were
| generally as flexible as they could be.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| For us in Europe that works with personal data, things tend
| to become complicated as soon we leave the EU, since it is
| often the case that the data must not leave the union.
| jpgvm wrote:
| These are all great.
|
| The last one is super important.
|
| When they talk about core locations/areas a good signal is if
| they have close to full timezone coverage, i.e Asia + NA +
| EU. This generally means you will be able to find
| collaborators that have some overlap and important meetings
| are likely to be recorded, etc.
| ferdowsi wrote:
| There's always other proxies for quality given changing life
| circumstances. Generous parental leave matters much more to me
| now than office vibe.
| dataviz1000 wrote:
| We are going to see lots of digital nomad and work vacation
| services develop over the next few years as people realize that
| they can live a week or month in a different city working being
| productive the whole time. There are already co-working / co-
| living services but now expect people in tech living and working
| in the jungles of Brazil, on the beaches of Uruguay, or or within
| riding distance of mounting biking trails every morning in
| Arkansas. Places like Puerto Rico which is still reeling from the
| devastation of hurricane Maria 4 years ago will have an
| opportunity to participate in the digital nomad ecosystem. There
| is a co-working facility on the North - Western corner of the
| island with generator backup and fiber internet. Hopefully this
| will have a positive benefit on remote exotic places.
|
| Prepare for an another work culture shift.
| benatkin wrote:
| I'm not so sure about that. There are a lot of remote workers
| who could live anywhere but choose San Francisco or NYC.
| shahbaby wrote:
| This seems like an even worse arrangement than working from an
| office.
|
| Most tech jobs demand time, focus and a strong wifi connection.
| Good luck doing that from the jungles of Brazil.
| OmarIsmail wrote:
| For now.
|
| But now that the pool of people that could work from the
| jungles of Brazil has increased 10-100x there's a lot more
| incentive to making that possible.
| gilbetron wrote:
| I wonder how that graph will look in several years times. Will it
| be a bump that goes back down to near where it was? Seems
| doubtful. But I don't think we'll see it plateau at 80%, either.
| Maybe a drift back down to 50% ish?
|
| At the beginning of the pandemic, I read a quote from a person
| that study the histories of pandemics and they said something
| like, "there will be two worlds, one before Covid, and one
| after."
|
| It seemed like hyperbole then, but not anymore.
| rtutz wrote:
| >"there will be two worlds, one before Covid, and one after."
|
| However at the same time this cannot be applied to all areas of
| life. While a kind of awakening may have taken place at work,
| the importance of social interactions became particularly
| visible on the other side. I assume that the majority would
| rather like to return to the pre-covid era, and will strive for
| it.
| datameta wrote:
| If anything I have seen communities come together more than
| before. The fact that everyone now shares a somewhat similar
| challenging experience, we can choose to relate to each other
| more easily.
| oblio wrote:
| Some things will change for the long term, for example
| increased remote work.
|
| However, there will be definitely a ton of people wanting go
| get their 2-3+ years back and to take advantage of life
| especially since so many have seen or been around death for
| so long.
|
| Prepare for the New Roaring Twenties.
| gravypod wrote:
| I don't think I'd consider working in office for a company for
| my next position. All recruiters that email me in office work
| are ignored, all remote options get a reply and go on a list
| for when I'm looking again.
|
| I want to eventually own a home but that's not going to happen
| for a long while in the Northern NJ area for me. For some place
| with temperatures I prefer more, lower taxes, and cheaper cost
| of living? It's definitely a possibility already.
| HenryKissinger wrote:
| > All recruiters that email me in office work are ignored
|
| I would write a short reply that you won't consider their
| offers solely because of the office work requirement.
| Otherwise they can't be certain why they're being ignored.
| Make it abundantly clear why you're not interested. So when
| their managers grill them for low performance they can show
| them: Here boss, people aren't biting because we're asking
| them to come into the office. We need to change this asap.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| Considering I get fire-bombed by recruiters who don't even
| consider my geographic location, skills or stated desires,
| and who also can't be bothered to even acknowledge me when
| I respond like you suggest, I'd say don't waste your time.
| The vast majority of recruiters only want something from
| you and treat you like garbage once they're not going to
| get it. The profession's abysmal reputation is well
| deserved.
| gravypod wrote:
| That's a good point. I think I'll start doing that.
| Hopefully it (in a small way) nudges the industry.
| erikerikson wrote:
| Maybe throw in a 4-day work week too?
| piva00 wrote:
| I've been floating that sometimes, just to gauge
| interest. I tell them that I'd be willing to change if a
| 4-day work week would be offered, at least covering my
| current salary.
|
| It's a 20% increase in pay and I'd absolutely love to
| work Mon-Thu.
| oceanplexian wrote:
| It's too bad because there's nothing wrong with offices, it's
| the implication that you're required to show up on some kind
| of schedule or something. "We have a fantastic office
| locations with free food, cool decor and meeting spaces, and
| you can go whenever you want", but remote work is OK as much
| as you need/want is a great pitch to me.
| gravypod wrote:
| Yea, fully agreed. I don't care about the existence of an
| office. I do care about the costs associated with me
| needing to _be_ in the office. I recently ran the numbers
| for current job and, assuming I spend $15 /meal + $1/cup of
| coffee, I still lose ~$3/day just commuting when I take
| advantage of free office breakfast/lunch food +
| microkitchen coffee. I also _do not_ spend $15 /per meal
| (my breakfast+lunch meal this morning ~$.60 to ~$1.60
| depending on cost of ingredients, electricity, and my
| time).
|
| I would, however, not mind having an _optional_ office (and
| would actually prefer working for a company like that) so
| if it 's a really hot day or I'm feeling crumby and want to
| change my scenery for a day or two I have a place I can go.
| downrightmike wrote:
| Before the industrial revolution, most people worked from home.
| Outside of farmers we can think about jewelers, watch/clock
| makers, cobblers. There were those that worked in work houses
| because they were destitute.
| HenryKissinger wrote:
| Mainstream remote work has arrived, and it's here to stay.
| White collar occupations outside tech will be forced to adapt
| and provide similar accommodations. Accountants, financial
| analysts, clerks. Any job that doesn't require manual labor or
| physical face time with a client will go remote. People will
| notice software engineers making 6 figures WFH and ask "Why
| can't I have that?" I believe this is part of what's fueling
| the Great Resignation. The disparity in terms of salary and
| work conditions between the worst jobs in society and the best
| jobs in society has become so great that a lot of people who
| used to occupy the worst jobs collectively said "fuck it" and
| successfully transitioned to better jobs, even if they're still
| not the best jobs society has to offer.
|
| This is also the reason why I believe that teaching will
| eventually either go fully remote or start paying 6 figures
| straight out of college. The teaching profession sucks.
| Teachers understand now that they can earn the same income
| without having to babysit 30 kids five days a week and deal
| with the kafkaesque bullshit that is school administration.
| rsynnott wrote:
| I don't see software engineering going fully remote. I
| certainly hope not; I'd have to retrain. The last 19 months
| have been enough to convince me I'll never voluntarily do WFH
| for more than a day or so a time again.
| tester756 wrote:
| yea sure it's not for everybody, but should be totally up
| to you whether you want remote or onsite.
| mountaineer wrote:
| cool to see others using this data, I've been tracking this trend
| and more over at https://www.hntrends.com/2021/july.html
| malshe wrote:
| Nice graphs! Highcharts is awesome
| codingclaws wrote:
| that's neat
| dang wrote:
| The Economist did this too:
|
| _For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28152174 - Aug 2021 (438
| comments)
|
| The charts look much the same.
| rinze wrote:
| Damn, I didn't know this! Anyway, it's good to see that at
| least we reached the same conclusion. Thanks for the link.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| I have often worked remote, even before pandemic lockdowns, and
| it works fine for me, but I am a little concerned about the
| impact on the next generation of programmers. There are
| advantages to both old and especially new programmers, that
| neither experienced nor inexperienced programmers are fully aware
| of, to having a mix of experience levels in the same office area.
| Remote work allows for the conscious, I-need-to-know-x-so-I'll-
| ask-someone kind of interaction, but it's not as good at the
| spontaneous and unplanned learning from observing or talking to
| others. It's difficult to measure, but I believe it's
| significant.
|
| I'm sure experienced programmers lose out from this as well, but
| my guess is that the impact is less, and in any case they're not
| just starting their career so the damage is less. I worry that
| the younger generation is kind of getting screwed by this change
| (as with so much else in the last couple decades).
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Happy to see the curve was trending upwards even before covid.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| This is great. Next please track the percentage of Hacker News
| job postings that give a salary number.
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(page generated 2021-10-24 23:02 UTC)