[HN Gopher] Signal for Help
___________________________________________________________________
Signal for Help
Author : nabla9
Score : 212 points
Date : 2021-10-24 13:49 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| AcerbicZero wrote:
| If you're not blinking SOS in morse code at me, I'm not getting
| involved.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| One problem with these is that they might be less useful than
| just shouting for help.
|
| If enough people know about the signal for it to be helpful, the
| abuser may know it too. And what if the abuser knows it and
| nobody else notices?
|
| There's also a term that bartenders learn. A certain name asked
| for (I forget). I feel that one might work better because it is
| targeted knowledge for women and bartenders.
|
| Nevertheless, there's a logical complication here I struggle to
| reconcile. I'm guessing this is a very well trodden problem space
| in cryptography.
| tjoff wrote:
| Not sure how the addition of a non-verbal sign increases the
| risk.
|
| The point is that it might be easier than hide than verbally or
| writing a note etc. So while the risk of course remains it is
| an added tool that is silent and doesn't require access to
| anything else.
| sva_ wrote:
| > One problem with these is that they might be less useful than
| just shouting for help.
|
| I think this sign was in particular meant to be used while on a
| video call. An abusive partner may currently not be looking at
| their victim, so they could do the signal, while making an
| auditory signal would not work.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| One potential problem here is that videocalling software
| usually displays camera input in a corner window/section.
| ketzo wrote:
| I think you're thinking of "Ask for Angela" or an "Angel Shot":
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_for_Angela
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. Yes that's what I was failing to recall.
| [deleted]
| e40 wrote:
| A video to go along with the article
|
| https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_m...
| dunefox wrote:
| How is this related to Hackernews? Seems quite OT.
| martinflack wrote:
| An important trait of startup founders is a decent EQ, and
| relating to other people. This is interesting news in that
| area.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| If people are interested in it, it's relevant.
| dunefox wrote:
| Fair enough.
| audray wrote:
| This classifies as language hacking, no?
| [deleted]
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Intellectual problem: given the current state of affairs,
| structure a system to help individuals in distress; check
| current proposals. Preliminary: know the current state of
| affairs (e.g. growth of domestic violence, correlation with
| isolation measures). Aside: cultural contexts (Canada, CWF).
|
| Non-triviality of the context: this morning this friend of mine
| had to call an emergency number. The country he was in had
| structured years ago the workflow as follows: first you talk to
| an operator, which compiles a form "with your help". Then you
| wait on hold, until a switchboard tune stops and you talk to
| the police (as in, "Hello, five minutes ago when I first called
| somebody was shooting around"). The operator reports being
| legally bound not to pass any information directly to the
| police: there is no action if the police does not talk to the
| caller, and there is no police if you do not spend the
| preliminary minutes. I am sure a few issues are clear.
| southerntofu wrote:
| It's related to security, communication, audio/video calls, and
| the pandemic. I believe all of these topics are HN favorites.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| E.O. Wilson, an entomologist studying ants, describes a "chemical
| grammar" for communications.
|
| Ants use specific chemicals (pheromones), producing odors, for
| communication. Their signals for food and other sustaining
| activities are fairly complex and long-lasting, and tend to be
| specific to a species.
|
| Alert signals are comprised of small molecules, are sharp, are
| _not_ specific to a given species (there may be multiples of
| these, but they 're shared across species), and they spread and
| disperse below detection threshold quickly. That is, once
| emitted, the signal permeates through the immediate area quickly,
| but it's also not long-lasting, so that later-arrivals won't
| erroniously interpret a danger signal.
|
| See:
|
| https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(06)...
|
| https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3509_eowilson.html
|
| https://achievement.org/achiever/edward-o-wilson-ph-d/#inter...
|
| (I'm finding overviews but not a specific description of the
| processes / methods.)
|
| Audio alerts among other animals seem to be similar. Alarm or
| threat cries are clear, unambiguous, and broadcast widely. Friend
| or mating cries, calls, songs, etc., are typically far more
| complex, specific, and more localised. These are behaviours which
| have emerged under selective pressure over millions of years.
|
| We scream at terror, shout at enemies, and whisper to lovers and
| children.
|
| I'd be very interested to hear of any _secret_ or _covert_ alert
| calls in nature.
|
| Complex or secret help calls are ... probably not especially
| useful in most cases. Instead, those who are likely to receive a
| call should be primed to act and verify quickly.
|
| Put another way, the method suggested in the article is a form of
| responsibilty-shifting to the victim, though it's all but
| certainly not intentionally constructed as such.
| 0898 wrote:
| All these memey distress signals, like asking for "Angela"... are
| they actually adopted? Or do they just exist on the internet?
| tdfx wrote:
| Have worked in bars and can confirm no one is going to
| recognize the Angela thing without additional context. It's
| just a feel-good memey thing.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| The "Angela" one specifically started not as a "use this
| codeword in any bar", but "in our bar, staff is trained to
| react to this code word" posted in the women's restrooms at a
| bar.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I've seen a video posted online of someone ringing the
| emergency services "ordering a pizza". It was a pretty
| emotional watch actually because there was no description so it
| took the viewer longer to realise what was going down than the
| operator. Really hit home just how hard their job is.
| chaircher wrote:
| They stop working once everyone knows about them. If your
| attacker knows your codeword it stops being a codeword
| dredmorbius wrote:
| These are used with varying degrees of regularity in different
| situations.
|
| "Mayday", "SOS", "Securitay", and "Pan pan pan" in aviation and
| boating. For aviation also 7500, 7600, and 7700.
|
| A list of codes used in hospitals, including combative
| individuals, armed confrontations, bomb threats and the like:
|
| https://www.calhospitalprepare.org/sites/main/files/file-att...
|
| For lists of codes used in other contexts (police, subways,
| ships, air travel: https://www.theclever.com/15-secret-
| emergency-codes-youre-no...
|
| Note that without specific training and regular drilling, these
| are likely to _not_ be especially useful. For communicating to
| the public a plausible-but-clear explanation, e.g., "police
| investigation" (usually code for suicide, possibly other death)
| is used especially in transportation systems. A "police
| investigation" on a transit line or bridge is frequently a
| suicide or attempt.
| vidarh wrote:
| In London at least you'll often hear "due to passenger
| action" as a catch all for anything from trespass to suicide
| attempts that involve someone potentially on the line.
|
| From your list, I've hear "inspector sands" being used, and
| avoided the exit they called someone to.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| That's a good example of fairly localized creativity during
| COVID. People may criticize the "how are you supposed to know
| that" aspect but it sounds more like it was part of its own
| campaign to raise awareness, and in a specific part of the world.
| If it continues to spread from there, probably all the better.
| tyingq wrote:
| Looks like finger spelling "B", then "E" in ASL.
| rozab wrote:
| So if nobody recognises it it's useless, but if everybody
| recognises it it's also useless?
| eloisant wrote:
| I don't think it's useless if everybody recognises it, there
| are many cases where you can show the sign to someone without
| it being visible by your abuser (i.e. hidden by your body).
| 542458 wrote:
| Eh, I think it's potentially useful even if everybody
| recognizes it. It's superficially similar enough to a normal
| wave hello and fast enough to perform that it could be done
| surreptitiously (as opposed to frantically waving for help or
| elaborate pantomime). I'm not sure if it's useful or just a
| feel-good thing, but I don't think us non-domain-experts can
| reject the former without more info.
| notRobot wrote:
| From TFA:
|
| > _Addressing concerns that abusers may become aware of such a
| widespread online initiative, the Canadian Women 's Foundation
| and other organizations clarified that this signal is not
| "something that's going to save the day," but rather a tool
| someone could use to get help._
| jodrellblank wrote:
| Looks impossible, my thumbs don't bend that way. Hopefully nobody
| being abused has similar thumbs.
| Arcuru wrote:
| I know someone who has that same issue. They started having
| other wrist/thumb issues, and only realized they had limited
| range of motion in their thumbs while doing Physical Therapy.
|
| The PT didn't help them get more range of motion, just helped
| reduce some pain they were having.
| MattRix wrote:
| Really? You can't wrap your fingers around your thumb like
| that? I am not a flexible person and I can do it easily. It's
| the same thing as making a fist with your thumb inside it (not
| usually a good idea!).
| jodrellblank wrote:
| Like depicted in that picture, no; close enough to work,
| probably. I can't do this ( https://openheart.bmj.com/content
| /openhrt/2/1/e000169/F5.lar... ) because the joint at the
| base of my thumb doesn't bend that way much at all.
|
| I can't do this ( https://www.medmd.org/wp-
| content/uploads/2016/11/Bend-Your-T... ) because I can't bend
| the tip of my thumb while keeping my fingers straight. The
| index and middle finger bend with the thumb tip.
|
| I can do what this picture describes as _opposition_ (
| http://i2.wp.com/boneandspine.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2016/09... ) with a combination of little
| finger movement and straight thumb or bent thumb and clawed
| fingers, and so I can make a fist with my thumb rotated
| around and tip covered by fingers.
| [deleted]
| mongol wrote:
| Is there no other signal for help, to use over long distance?
| sva_ wrote:
| ...---...
| ogogmad wrote:
| I didn't know that one. TIL.
| denysvitali wrote:
| I hope you're joking. It's literally SOS in morse code, and
| it's pretty common hearing the sound in movies / series.
| throwaway2016a wrote:
| I usually get downvoted for posting XKCD but here it
| goes. Relevant XKCD
|
| https://xkcd.com/1053/
| e0a74c wrote:
| I hope you're joking. How can someone not know that the
| average person is unaware of Morse code? After all, it's
| pretty common hearing about how ignorant people are in
| movies/series :P
| Ansil849 wrote:
| > I hope you're joking.
|
| Why? There, by definition, is always a moment when you
| learn something. You're not born knowing SOS. At some
| point in your life you learn of it. To reply to someone
| who expresses that that this was such a moment with "I
| hope you're joking" comes off as extremely condescending.
| denysvitali wrote:
| Yes but it's different here. SOS should be as known as
| Coca Cola.
|
| I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, it's just that I
| can't imagine someone not knowing such a basic thing like
| that - similar to not knowing what the number for the
| emergency services in your country is.
| lillesvin wrote:
| Berating someone for admitting they don't know something
| is counter-productive and is only going to make them not
| admit it the next time.
| denysvitali wrote:
| Yes, you're totally right and I probably stated my
| astonishment in the wrong way.
| stinos wrote:
| And I can't imagine you cannot imagine that. You probably
| know there are people of so many different ages and
| cultures and backgrounds here, is it really that hard to
| imagine someone never encountered it?
| denysvitali wrote:
| Honestly, for such a thing, yes. But I should probably
| consider that, under certain circumnstances, people might
| not be aware of certain things.
|
| Never mind, sorry for the bad comment.
| qsort wrote:
| Unironic +1.
|
| SOS is still officially recognized as a distress signal, is
| universally understood across language and cultural barriers,
| and works well with a variety of signaling methods.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| I agree. There is also hope that someone may recognize the
| signal (if they were scouts, or cs students who had that as
| one of the first tasks, ...).
|
| The way you tap it is . . . .. .. .. . .
| .
| [deleted]
| Ansil849 wrote:
| I'm having trouble understanding a use-case for this.
|
| The point appears to be to use it if you are in a situation where
| for example your abusive partner is next to you, for example on a
| video call, and you want to signal on this call (as opposed to on
| a separate call when your abusive partner is not next to you?)
| that you need help. This then relies on 1) the people on the
| other end of the video call recognizing the signal, but also 2)
| your abuser not recognizing it.
|
| This seems extremely unlikely. Am I missing something about its
| utility?
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| Presumably an abuser listening and occasionally but not
| constantly watching.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| Controlling abusers police how their victims interact with the
| outside world. So being watched or listened it to on a call is
| not out of the question.
|
| Also consider that revealing the abuse can be life threatening
| to the victim. How certain can you really be you're not being
| overheard? And is even a 1% chance worth your life?
| Ansil849 wrote:
| Yes, I understand this. What I don't understand is the
| expectation that I outlined above: wherein the abuser does
| not understand or notice the gesture, but the people on the
| other end of the line do both notice and understand the
| gesture. This seems _very_ unlikely, and if the abuser _does_
| notice and understand the symbol, will only put the person
| being abused in more danger. So again, I don't understand the
| utility of this.
|
| As you said:
|
| > And is even a 1% chance worth your life?
|
| Is the 1% chance that the abuser sees and understands the
| symbol worth your life?
| jader201 wrote:
| I think the video call example is a bad example. Someone
| above linked to a video on Reddit that, I think, shows more
| likely scenarios where it could be used effectively
| (though, as stated in other comments, relies on the others
| knowing the context of the gesture):
|
| https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_
| m...
|
| Edit: reading some of the comments in the Reddit thread, as
| the article states, this was started in Canada during the
| COVID lockdown, so the likely scenario there is that you
| may give the signal out during work/while video chatting
| with a friend/relative while the abuser is unobservant but
| within hearing distance.
|
| To your point, this still seems unlikely, but if someone is
| in an abusive relationship but is still working during
| lockdowns, I suppose it's still one way to signal for help.
| Ansil849 wrote:
| > you may give the signal out during work/while video
| chatting with a friend/relative while the abuser is
| unobservant but within hearing distance.
|
| It just seems like an extremely dangerous thing to do. If
| someone sees you doing some weird gesture with your
| hands, their first impulse may just be to blurt out "what
| are you doing with your hands?", which would in this case
| draw the abuser's attention.
|
| It seems way more straightforward to type out in that
| scenario explicitly that you are in danger.
| skytreader wrote:
| There's a lot of inconspicuous ways to signal this.
| Disguise it as some nonsense. It's no different from the
| less serious appellations to "blink thrice if you need
| help". Some I just came up with:
|
| (a) you can disguise the action as making a fist then
| said fist goes on to rub your nose, for instance.
|
| (b) your chin can rest on the back of your hand in
| position (1). Then it occasionally switches to (2). You
| can keep doing this while pretending to be listening
| thoroughly, like it's some unconscious gesture.
|
| (c) you can do this gesture two or three times in a row
| disguised as a hello or goodbye wave.
|
| The important observation here is, even if your abuser
| recognizes what you are doing, they are unlikely to
| prevent you from doing this _immediately_. Otherwise if
| they do then it 's just explicit confirmation that you
| are indeed being abused. That situation is no good for
| them, if they are trying to hide the fact.
|
| The second point is that you maintain plausible
| deniability even if your abuser recognizes the sign. Of
| course it's not foolproof but it's easier to sell this as
| casual gestures as opposed to explicitly telling the
| video chat of your situation. If your abuser confronts
| you about it (if they even catch you doing it), it's
| easier to defuse the situation and less likely to end up
| in another altercation.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Chat might be persistent and checked later, video calls
| are not usually recorded.
| tyingq wrote:
| It's rare, but it does happen. This story is pretty
| interesting: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/27/us/florida-woman-
| escape-note-...
| Ansil849 wrote:
| This is a story about someone slipping a note. It's a far cry
| from "someone doing a specialized hand symbol that someone
| intended noticed, while someone unintended did not notice".
| Or in other words, the amount of people who are literate and
| capable of reading a note in legible plain script is orders
| of magnitude greater than the amount of people who know this
| hand signal.
| tyingq wrote:
| Yes, I'm also skeptical of the hand gesture being useful,
| since few will recognize it. Just noting that the situation
| (needing to signal you're in distress, while with the
| partner) does happen.
| Ansil849 wrote:
| > since few will recognize it.
|
| This is I think precisely why this signal is a non-
| starter. For it to be successful, it seems to require
| that a large percentage of people are able to recognize
| it. But if a large percentage of people can recognize it,
| that logically means the abuser is more likely to
| recognize it as well.
| kypro wrote:
| In what situations would someone need to communicate they need
| help over video?
|
| If the abuser is in the room a hand gesture would be quite
| dangerous and if they're not voice could be used instead. In
| situations where the abuser is too close for verbal
| communication, surely text would be the next safest option?
|
| Perhaps there are some situations where only video is available
| making this necessary, but I can't think of any video
| conferencing software which doesn't also support text messaging.
|
| I'd be worried promoting this will either result in people trying
| to alert others and failing because of a lack of awareness, or
| people simply misinterpreting someone waving to say hi or bye as
| a call for help and wasting people time.
| tomcooks wrote:
| Angry partner in the other room, you send to someone you trust
| a video while in the bathroom. If said partner checks your
| phone you lower the chances of being caught, one can assume you
| were just waving goodbye or something. Same applies to
| signalling people outside your window, police or neighbors.
| [deleted]
| zorked wrote:
| Vaguely related: in Brazil if you call the police and say you
| want to "order a pizza" they will play along, request your
| address, and send a police patrol to check on you.
| jagger27 wrote:
| This is a common thing for 911 dispatchers to be trained on. If
| you call 911 and they ask for "police, fire, or ambulance" and
| you just start having a normal conversation with them they'll
| play along, usually with yes or no questions that can be
| answered with "yeah, my weekend was great thanks!"
|
| There's pretty much no need to say your address either. The
| police will already have your location from the phone call.
| riffic wrote:
| do people still order pizzas over the phone in first-world
| countries?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| It's the only way I order take out. Faster and easier than
| using an app.
| reaperducer wrote:
| You're doing it wrong.
|
| You're supposed to write a long tale on Medium titled
| "Here's what happened when I tried to order food over the
| phone from a restaurant"
|
| Then make a Tiktok Video about it tagged #lifehack.
|
| It's the only way the loafing class will believe you.
| ben_w wrote:
| Sure, I'm in Berlin and living literally directly up from a
| Domino's. Several of the _good_ Pizza places near me (not
| Domino's) don't have an app, and half their websites list
| only a phone number and physical address for contact. One has
| an email address but says they don't take orders that way.
| nelgaard wrote:
| yes it is the fastest way to do it. And it cuts out the
| middlemen.
| reaperducer wrote:
| I hate to break it to you, but A LOT of the best restaurants
| aren't available on apps, or even online.
|
| I recently moved to a new (large) city, and have found that
| nearly half of the restaurants in my neighborhood aren't even
| in either Google Maps or Apple Maps.
| dan_linder wrote:
| Do you happen to have a list of these code words for other
| countries?
| tata71 wrote:
| If it's the emergency number you're calling, and the operator
| doesn't understand the pizza/repairman etc code, they're
| poorly trained/suited for the job.
| babyshake wrote:
| If you call 911 and request a pizza, you might be pranking
| them or you might be under duress. Curious if they have a
| protocol for differentiating between these. I suppose if
| you give them your address and you're just joking you would
| be pretty dumb, not to mention incredibly immature to abuse
| emergency services.
| shagie wrote:
| This is an item in the 911 operator game. The description
| of the call is
| https://911-operator.fandom.com/wiki/Undercover_pizza
|
| An example of the gameplay with that call is
| https://youtu.be/tEpyboLQ7bk?t=360
|
| And an actual dispatcher call
| https://youtu.be/ZJL_8kNFmTI
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| "Please, before you fire that gun, let me order my last
| pizza". Totally believable.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| "I'm sorry for screwing up lunch, should I order a pizza
| instead?"
|
| "We've been here for five hours, everyone is hungry. Can
| we get some food, like order a pizza or something?"
| vinceguidry wrote:
| They do, they typically will ask if you're in duress and
| you need assistance. You can say 'yes' without tipping
| the person you're with off. The problem is most people in
| duress won't think to call the cops.
| tyingq wrote:
| It does have risks since the 3 digit dial looks
| distinctive. Or things like redial that could give it
| away.
| tata71 wrote:
| 9110000000000 as many times as needed.
| noodlesUK wrote:
| Does this actually work on mobiles?
| notatoad wrote:
| there's a couple youtube videos floating around where the
| operator initially is pissed off that somebody is
| pranking them, but catches on pretty quick. the tone of a
| kid being annoying and a victim in distress is pretty
| different.
| thih9 wrote:
| Does anyone have a link to a video or a call
| transcription?
| syngrog66 wrote:
| "Yes, I'd like a 16-inch handtossed..." -> 6 men in riot gear,
| blue pants, tacti-cool
|
| "... for the toppings I want pineapple, feta and onions..." ->
| recommend you bring stun grenades, tasers and tear gas
|
| ... etc ...
| midasuni wrote:
| Pineapple on a pizza? Surely that's code for a terrorist
| event
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-10-24 23:01 UTC)