[HN Gopher] Barcelona's Bicibus: hundreds of families biking to ...
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Barcelona's Bicibus: hundreds of families biking to school together
Author : crousto
Score : 226 points
Date : 2021-10-24 09:02 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| gadrev wrote:
| Yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28970792 (this is
| a different article)
| throwawaysea wrote:
| I've noticed there are frequent reposts of the same story or
| very similar stories when it comes to pro-bike/anti-
| car/urbanist content. I've seen several such posts in the last
| 24 hours, all on the front page. Reposts are supposed to be
| buried per the HN FAQ but there isn't a way to report things as
| dupes seemingly. @dang is flagging the right approach for
| handling this?
| grzm wrote:
| In my experience emailing is better (using the Contact link
| in the footer). This is also better for getting the mods'
| attention, as things like @dang don't trigger any automated
| notification mechanism.
| agumonkey wrote:
| The bike brigade is loose :)
|
| I don't know how a bike-first city would feel, but biking is a
| serious bonus in one's life (granted you have safe space or a
| herd around you). So the more the merrier.
| unglaublich wrote:
| Visit any city center in the Netherlands.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayPDlDi9Ug4
| jseban wrote:
| It feels like having a gym membership, you really like the
| idea of yourself, and you can be smug and get virtue
| signalling points, but in practice people rarely use it and
| it's mostly empty except for a short season.
| agumonkey wrote:
| you mean people using their bikes don't do it regularly ?
| [deleted]
| jseban wrote:
| Yep, that's what I mean. They like the idea of being a
| good person, but when push comes to shove, in reality
| it's only used/usable when the weather is nice, and
| people don't use it when the weather is bad.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Ah well I was surprised to keep biking 24/7 after I
| started in July. I'd even do it 100% of the time if I was
| living in my own house and if it was safe and easy to
| park my bike (bike theft is so prevalent). Even soaked in
| rain, even when cold, even after falling hard.. I kept
| doing it.
|
| I'm even thinking making a bike club / bike repair shop
| to motivate other people. The benefits are huge.
| bserge wrote:
| I am actually volunteering at two repair shops ran by
| charities, teaching kids and refugees how to fix their
| own bikes. It's great, though the adults are not very
| keen on riding everywhere :D
|
| Also, thanks HN for rate limiting me without a
| notification, you shitheads. 3 comments an hour or so?
|
| Just ban my account and IP, I would honestly appreciate
| it, no need to play mind games like some other cunty
| sites.
| agumonkey wrote:
| that's awesome .. I guess I could label my bike club as a
| charity too
| bserge wrote:
| You joking? I have used a tram twice in the past six
| months. I bike 25km to work and back every day and
| anywhere I need to go.
|
| And I love it even more without the scorching heat. I've
| not felt this good physically in a decade, great free
| aerobic exercise.
|
| And apparently this city isn't even all that bike
| friendly compared to others, which is amazing since it
| seems perfect to me.
| stabbles wrote:
| Makes me think of the Critical Mass movement [1], except that
| this has more impact because they are kids and is actually
| serving a purpose of going to school.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass_(cycling)
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| Yet another example of how Barcelona feels societally futuristic
| in some ways. For a couple more - they were way ahead of the
| curve (at least from an American perceptive) on superblocks[1]
| and they have centralized vacuum municipal trash collection[2]
|
| [1]
| https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/17/superblocks-r...
|
| [2] https://enviropaul.wordpress.com/2016/03/22/all-the-
| garbage-...
| mlok wrote:
| I didn't know about the centralized vacuum municipal trash
| collection. I found this short video showing the concept :
| https://youtu.be/gHmt1GTVlnM
| ResearchCode wrote:
| It feels more dystopian than futuristic. There are countries
| where children don't have to commute in large groups to avoid
| crime.
| mejutoco wrote:
| Barcelona is not a place where children have to commute in
| large groups to avoid crime. I do not know where you got that
| idea.
| ResearchCode wrote:
| Got the idea from them being one of the crime capitals of
| Europe where visitors are asked to practice war zone
| vigilance.
|
| Could also be a little bit of the middle class being priced
| out of driving cars.
|
| Futurism in the Davos sense perhaps. You will own
| nothing...
| mrexroad wrote:
| ?? I spent 3 months studying there a while back. To me,
| Barcelona felt safer there than most large American
| cities that I've lived in. One "problem" was petty crime
| that seemed to mostly target tourists---vigilance was
| indeed the solution... but more of "mind your
| surroundings" than "war zone."
| ashtonkem wrote:
| Every city I've ever been to in my entire life is more
| dangerous for tourists. They're easy targets, since they
| usually have expensive gear and don't understand the
| area.
| asdfwefdadsf wrote:
| Please provide a source for Barcelona being a crime
| capital of Europe.
| ResearchCode wrote:
| For instance, the "sources" accessible through those
| keywords put in a google search query.
|
| (Entertaining the question as if my claim was more
| controversial than any other in this thread, that is, as
| if Barcelona was not infamous as a crime ridden s hole
| where visitors are asked to practice war zone vigilance.)
| mrexroad wrote:
| How much time have you spent in Barcelona?
| ResearchCode wrote:
| Enough not to get gaslighted.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| I lived there for eight years until this year, and what
| you're saying is entirely divorced from reality.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| I've never understood why people sometimes get angry when
| they're asked for evidence to back their assertions.
| CyanBird wrote:
| > For instance, the "sources" accessible through those
| keywords put in a google search query.
|
| We are on hackernews, here it is part of the etiquette to
| source claims
|
| Please ensure that you do so
| vidarh wrote:
| Putting "crime capitals of Europe" into Google gets me
| multiple lists, only one of which includes Barcelona. The
| one which includes it places it 26th in Europe, behind a
| whole lot of cities I've felt totally safe in.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| No, it's to protect them from _cars_ , which are by and far
| one of the biggest dangers to children
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| I think the safety is to do with road traffic rather than
| deliberate criminality.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| pachico wrote:
| Lots of opinions about Barcelona, I see. Somehow I feel I know
| the city quite well. I moved here more than 20 years ago and I
| can compare it to others cities I live in or visited.
|
| Barcelona is relatively safe, although, as it's been mentioned,
| it had several hot spots (I used to live in some of these,
| actually). Crime is in most of the cases about pickpocketing
| or, sadly but infrequently, with assault. Still, believe me,
| it's a relatively safe city.
|
| Anyhow, it's not a city to grow your children. Traffic is high,
| bike lanes are not safe and there are very few parks. This is
| the reason people try to move to nearby cities whenever they
| have kids (my case also).
| brailsafe wrote:
| How bad is pickpocketing these days? Barcelona seemed to have
| developed an international reputation for it, but I presume
| that much like all things, it's overblown.
| zxspectrum1982 wrote:
| These days? Horrible. Some people call it "Warcelona" for a
| reason. Authorities do nothing.
| pharmakom wrote:
| This is wonderful to see. It's sad how such an old technology,
| that can fix so many urban problems, is overlooked in most of the
| developed world.
|
| - Childhood obesity (around 30% in some areas of developed
| nations)
|
| - Independence for children (meet friends, get to school, etc.)
|
| - Time poor "taxi service" parents might save 1hr+ / day
|
| - Congestion (bikes can be even more space efficient than buses)
|
| - Air quality (many developed cities exceed WHO guidelines
|
| - Money saved on car payments for the poorest in society. This is
| a huge burden.
|
| - Independence for those too old, with a disability or medical
| condition that prevents driving. Did you know many epileptics are
| not legally allowed to drive?
|
| - City saves money on road repair etc. Road damage is a power of
| vehicle weight.
|
| - Local shops favoured over out of town, big box etc.
| _nalply wrote:
| I have been in Paris two weeks ago and I am surprised how much
| Paris changed in the last years. Bike lanes and people who ride
| bikes and scooters everywhere.
|
| I hope that this is THE change in most European metropolises for
| the future. Not only in Barcelona.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| I honestly can't wait for electric vehicles to become common.
| No more getting gas attacked when waiting at a traffic stop.
| Air pollution is a big deal in my country.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| Been in Paris two weeks ago as well to visit my girlfriend
| who's been living there for 11 years.
|
| Scooters are in the process of being banned in Paris because
| they are too dangerous and in Rome, where I come from, they are
| going yo be heavily regulated (mandatory helmet, reduced speed,
| designated pick up and drop locations, etc. ) because they
| caused a +35% increase of brain traumas to teenagers
|
| Not everything that looks cool on first sight it's an actual
| improvement.
| bserge wrote:
| *teenagers who fall.
|
| Really could've been reduced by a lot with a few simple
| instructions in the app. Stick to the right, don't speed, be
| careful, etc.
|
| Who the fuck falls off a scooter, anyway.
| claytoneast wrote:
| I've crashed a Lime/Bird at least 3 times, none of them
| related to cars or other people in any way.
|
| 1. Taking a pedestrian bridge off-ramp in the rain at max
| velocity because I wanted to see if I could take the corner
| going that fast.
|
| 2. Finding a quarter-pipe set up next to a bridge. How can
| you resist trying to shred it? It went well on run 1 thru
| 9. Run # 10, not so well.
|
| 3. Driving one home drunk at 230am and trying to drive it
| with only one hand.
|
| My point is that it's pretty easy to fall off if you are
| pushing the envelope in any way at all. Who the hell falls
| of a scooter? Hah! Who the hell rides one exactly how you
| are supposed to? Totally boring.
| brailsafe wrote:
| Have never ridden one, but I assume you could easily crash
| into a person, car, curb, signpost, other scooterers, hit a
| rock etc..
|
| Simple instructions don't solve anything, and represent a
| design flaw. If the design doesn't inherently address the
| problem you want to solve, then text definitely won't.
| bserge wrote:
| Well, I'm saying that because people don't even realize
| they need to treat the road somewhat like a car driver.
|
| Like, literally, they install the app and get on the
| scooter and do 20km/h on the opposite side then are
| surprised that there's people and bikes coming right into
| them.
|
| A simple "stick to your right" would help a lot of them
| imo.
|
| And it's really hard to crash one ime, but then again I
| somehow never fell or crashed a bicycle for half my life.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| Not a judgment on my side on teenagers, this is from an
| Italian source translated through Google
|
| The numbers are quite bad
|
| https://www-inmoto-it.translate.goog/news/altre-
| notizie/cron...
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I wonder if they'll actually enforce the scooter ban on
| private ones. Because they certainly don't enforce traffic
| laws on motos lane splitting constantly anywhere.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| Speculating here because I am not aware of the details, but
| I guess they will be regulated the same way mopeds are:
| license plates, helmets and all that stuff.
| xwdv wrote:
| It would be a shame if they are banned as it is one of the
| most efficient and enjoyable ways to get around the city.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| In my opinion they certainly bring the fun factor, but
| regarding efficency they offer no real advantage over
| electric mopeds, especially when riding them with a
| passenger.
|
| They are probably more "portable" though.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| In principle it's a great idea but from the picture it
| looks like they're monopolizing a shared resource. This
| isn't fundamentally different than adults parading around
| during Critical Mass.
| meerita wrote:
| I live in Barcelona. We have most of the streets with a proper
| bicycle lane. Too many people using the lines everyday and I
| believe the best system is Madrid, when you can go directly on
| the street on one of the lanes, instead of a small lane.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Why is their school so far that they have to bike? Ideally you
| should just walk.
| darkwater wrote:
| You just uncovered one of the issues in Barcelona: getting a
| public school place near where you are living, especially in
| the Eixample district (the one where this initiative is being
| done) which is super crowded and with very few real estate
| available for public buildings.
| [deleted]
| namenotrequired wrote:
| My brother has been living in Barcelona for one year and visiting
| yearly for over a decade. He tells me he can feel the city change
| and become more and more of a bike city. As a dutchie this makes
| him very happy
| Kafkish wrote:
| > the ride from start to finish lasts about 25 minutes.
|
| That's about 50 minutes to and fro. That's all the exercise a
| child needs in a day. Wish they'll succeed in making it every
| day, instead of just on Fridays.
| lm28469 wrote:
| > That's all the exercise a child needs in a day.
|
| More like the minimum recommended amount, but it's a good start
| amelius wrote:
| Also, I suppose the majority of children still live within a
| much smaller radius of school.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| It is my experience that two things correlate positively with
| widespread adoption of biking:
|
| a. Relatively flat city terrain. (Not the case in Prague, for
| example; a lot of the residential areas are at much higher
| elevation than the city centre.)
|
| b. Moderate temperatures at both ends of the summer-winter scale.
| Most people won't bike to work at -20 or +35 Celsius.
| kohlerm wrote:
| With regards to b. That seems to be true only partially
| seehttps://www.euronews.com/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-loving-
| fin...
| lonelyasacloud wrote:
| Climate and terrain aren't that big a deal. Single biggest
| impediment to cycling is the how likely people are to be maimed
| or killed by drivers.
| robomartin wrote:
| https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/09/cycling-injuries-
| three...
|
| From the article:
|
| "VeiligheidNL estimates that there were actually some 80,000
| injuries of which 50,000 were serious."
|
| And, of course, the idea of biking and the reality of it are
| quite different things:
|
| https://www.bikelaw.com/2019/05/amsterdam-not-cycling-
| paradi...
|
| I love how people tend to have this impulse to reduce reality
| to a single variable: Bikes = human power = exercise = good.
|
| Reality is a complex multivariate problem. When you look at
| more variables you often discover something quite different
| than the assumption borne out of that single variable
| fantasy.
| Tade0 wrote:
| FTA:
|
| > Often a faster biker would pass within millimeters to get
| by me as I pedaled in an already narrow bike lane.
|
| This is the number one thing I hate about mixing sidewalks
| with bike paths, but it appears it's also an issue _on_ the
| latter.
|
| Anyway this figure representing the fraction of trips done
| by bike in the Netherlands is interesting in context:
|
| https://www2.deloitte.com/xe/en/insights/focus/future-of-
| mob...
|
| Looking at the modal split for Amsterdam and Rotterdam,
| people still drive cars as much as in other European
| cities, it's just that cycling has replaced walking and
| public transport.
|
| Frankly I don't see the benefit here.
| sandermvanvliet wrote:
| I live in Rotterdam and don't drive my car in the city
| anymore, only to go out of the city. We've had quite a
| few changes with reduction in lanes (2 to 1) to allow
| less traffic in to reduce the air pollution and by doing
| that bike lanes got bigger which I think is a good thing.
| It makes driving a car in the city less attractive and
| while I have no idea if more people ride bikes now, from
| my limited perspective it does seem to be the case
| jseban wrote:
| Same where I live, and now we have 1 empty bike lane and
| traffic jam in the remaining with sirens all the time
| because emergency vehicles can't pass anymore. It seems
| completely useless, convert a fully functional lane of a
| road, to an empty lane that's not used, why? And that
| reasoning is also really strange, just remove roads to
| force people to drive less? Well you also just removed
| mobility? Remove busses, subways, remove everything so
| nobody ever travels anymore, best solution?
| bserge wrote:
| Greener, cheaper, healthier. All by _a lot_.
| mchaver wrote:
| In my experience the number one thing that is positively
| correlated with biking adoption is infrastructure. If the
| population can safely use bicycles and they can be easily
| accessed/stored/rented then they are more willing to work
| around other inconveniences.
| TomK32 wrote:
| Ebikes are more and more common, they already make up half the
| sales of new bikes in many markets. That's the hills dealt
| with.
|
| And in regards to cold temperatures, if the only time you daily
| spend in the cold is the few meters from your house's door to
| your car's door and then to your work's door, then you just
| think it is cold because you aren't living it like someone
| who's active and raises their body temperature in the cold.
|
| Currently I cycle 10km to work and arrive before the sun is
| barely up, I enjoy those rides, I have good lights on the bike
| and can use cycling paths on 2/3 of the way. The thing I'm
| really looking forward to is the snowy days when the world is
| silenced and cycling though a few centimeters of snow becomes
| magical.
| lbreakjai wrote:
| For point a, the growing democratization of ebikes really help
| flatten the terrain.
|
| For point b, the cold in itself is not really a huge deal, if
| you're dressed appropriately. As for the heat, it really
| depends on the amount of efforts you have to do.
|
| I see the lack of adequate infrastructure as a much bigger
| impediment. If you risk getting hurt, you won't cycle, even in
| the most perfect weather.
| namdnay wrote:
| I agree. Luckily (a) is slowly changing thanks to ebikes (you
| can even get child ebikes now!)
| jseban wrote:
| The truth is that cycling infrastructure is an unnecessary
| luxury. It's a "good thing" in principle because it's a way of
| transportation that's good for the environment and gives people
| exercise, but it's redundant and expensive, you still need full
| capacity in public transport, because almost no one cycles when
| the weather is bad. It would only makes sense really if you
| could dynamically allocate space between cars/bikes basically
| on a day-by-day basis, and/or convert bike lanes to bus lanes,
| but I guess you'd need a full fleet of only self driving cars
| for that to be feasible. Then you could have the luxury of
| using a bike on days with nice weather, just because it's fun.
| Until then, it's at the expense of general mobility which is a
| really big downside in cities that are already crowded and
| transport is slow. Why should we cycle more? Only one reason is
| really valid: save the environment. But then again, we have a
| million comforts and luxuries at the expense of the
| environment, and people can generally choose, as long as
| they're not using absurd amount of energy. Why force cycling
| specifically, I don't understand, just take the bus if you
| don't want to drive.
| minusf wrote:
| > unnecessary luxury
|
| as en expat living in amsterdam i couldnt disagree more. a
| city with a bike first infrastucture is incomparably safer,
| quieter and more pleasant for everyone in the city.
|
| when it takes 15 minutes to get anywhere in the city using
| the bike infrastructure, one would be crazy to pull out the
| car and look 30 minutes for parking places that cost north of
| 7 euros an hour.
|
| "people dont bike in bad weather and in winter" is nonsense
| garbage from people who dont live in biking places. if the
| infrastructure is there people will bike even in snow
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU).
|
| > just take the bus if you don't want to drive
|
| i dont depend on any public transport if i have my bike. it's
| the exact reason why people choose cars over public
| transport.
| jseban wrote:
| Not the car, take the bus. The reason cycling is
| unnecessary is that all use cases are already covered by
| public transport and/or driving. That's a fact. There's
| nothing that you specifically need to cycle for. That makes
| it unnecessary, that's just basic logic.
|
| And _most_ people do not cycle when the weather is bad,
| that 's also just a fact, and I grew up in an extremely
| bike friendly city and rode my bike all winter in the snow,
| in bike lanes that were completely empty and I just saw a
| whole bunch of money down the drain, just to pretend to be
| environmentally friendly when in reality 95% of people hop
| on the bus as soon as the weather is even slightly bad.
| patall wrote:
| A lorry is also not strictly necessary if you have a
| Smart or a wheelbarrow. There is plenty of use cases that
| are only reasonable thanks to having a bike. I for
| example went to work by a combination of bike and public
| transport. Car alone would have been 1h, public transport
| and walking as well, but bike and public transport was 45
| min. (Car and public transport did not work together for
| lack of parking) By your logic, the bike was unnecessary
| and that is true but beside the point for the sake of
| 2*15min a day.
|
| Just because most people are doing something does not
| mean its sensible. Most people are also overweight, even
| though everyone knows that that is not healthy.
| jseban wrote:
| Yes there are cases when a bike will be faster, because
| your destination happens to be poorly covered by public
| transport, but on average it's not, and that's what's
| really important.
| convolvatron wrote:
| I live in a city center and used to walk/take public
| transport. which was fine.
|
| biking is alot more convenient. I can only carry about what
| I would walking, but its not a big deal to go two miles to
| get something. and I feel much better for the exercise.
|
| if zipcar hadn't been shut down after acquisition, I would
| still have the option to get something big from 20 miles
| away once or twice a year.
|
| I don't know why you feel the need to assert that the last
| 100 years status quo is some statement of natural
| law...I've always hated getting trapped in those smelly
| little boxes and now I have a choice!
| tjr225 wrote:
| Uh. I doubt cycling infrastructure is even a minute fraction
| of the cost we put into automobile infrastructure. I have no
| proof but lol let's call it a hunch.
|
| > Why should we cycle more? Only one reason is really valid:
| save the environment.
|
| It's better for the environment, it's cheaper, it's more
| efficient(more bikes can occupy less space and move more
| people), it's fun, it's good for your body, it's safer(if we
| don't have to share the road with cars- for instance if the
| infrastructure for bikes were to actually exist), bikes are
| easier to maintain, bikes can access a variety of terrain
| most cars can not. I could probably go on and on.
|
| IMO the only reason bicycles are seen as an unnecessary
| luxury is cultural. We aren't all Lycra clad snobs who ignore
| stop lights, but for some reason this perception persists.
| jseban wrote:
| No it's not. People don't like to be very uncomfortable and
| inconvenient. Cycling year around every day, is very
| uncomfortable and inconvenient for many many days, so why
| would you do that if you don't have to?
|
| I can argue exactly the same way for why you should turn
| off the heat in your house the whole winter, it's great for
| the environment and you just have to "put on a coat".
| stefan_ wrote:
| You seem to feel strongly about this topic. So strong you
| have now replied to the same comment twice. Time to take
| a break?
| jseban wrote:
| People also like to choose whatever they think is fun, if
| you want to play tennis instead of riding a bike, because
| you think that's more fun, you should be able to do so.
|
| Your fun is at the expense of other people's mobility, why
| can't you just use some of the other million ways of
| getting exercise and having fun, where you don't have to be
| in other people's way?
| Fricken wrote:
| It's better to be a driver. It's no fun. You don't get
| any exercise. It drives up infrastructure costs, kills
| and maims people, destroys the planet, and takes up even
| more space on the roads.
| jseban wrote:
| So, just use the subway then and your problems are
| solved. In a much better way than cycling.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Bikes are often used in combination with subways. Bikes
| can also be used in cities that don't have subways and
| cycling infrastructure is far cheaper to build.
| tpm wrote:
| It's solved when you live very close to subway station
| and it goes everywhere you need. So not a lot of times in
| many cities.
| jseban wrote:
| Yeah well, in this example and many similar big cities in
| europe, you have subway and buses that will take you to
| any street corner. Sure, in a small town in australia or
| the US, not the case, but I highly doubt bike lanes will
| be any viable alternative there anyway.
|
| My point is that it's not a good idea to expand bike
| lanes in big city centers where you already have public
| transport, especially not in places that doesn't have a
| bike friendly climate. It's simply not a good use of the
| space, can't really make any good case for it except some
| people think it's fun, which is extremely weak. And I
| don't understand why it makes cities such as Amsterdam
| and Copenhagen so much better, people just get randomly
| happy from the joys of riding a bike, or what? I'd rather
| have many more practical solutions with tangible results
| such as actually _reducing_ the time and energy we spend
| on commuting, not increasing it.
| tpm wrote:
| > My point is that it's not a good idea to expand bike
| lanes in big city centers where you already have public
| transport
|
| I don't know what is your background, but many cities are
| doing it and it's not only about enabling bikes but also
| to disable passenger cars, and the main reason is it
| makes the places more livable and enjoyable: it's
| quieter, the air is cleaner, the streets are safer,
| people actually spend more time outside. So this is a
| practical solution to a problem people have: noise,
| pollution, loss of public space to car infrastructure.
| jseban wrote:
| My background is that I've cycled my whole life, all of
| childhood in rain and snow and later I've cycled for a
| few years in a big city. But I started to use it less and
| less, and now it's just parked and unused. And the reason
| is that there's always a better alternative. If the
| weather is nice, I drive an electric moped, it's not
| noisy or polluting, and it doesn't take up much space.
| And it's so so much better than cycling, I arrive much
| quicker and with more energy anywhere I go, and I can use
| the whole existing road network. And when the weather is
| bad, obviously public transport wins. I think the future
| is electric and self driving vehicles, not cycling, and
| being forced to propel yourself manually like that for
| basic transportation has no place in a modern world
| except for enjoyment, and this can be done in designated
| areas.
|
| If you just want to avoid cars and have a more leisurely
| space, why not designate pedestrian zones like
| traditionally done in city centers, and use the space for
| cafes, market stands etc.
| jseban wrote:
| Oh and I should add: outside of my house they have
| blocked one whole lane of the road from cars and
| designated it for cyclists. There was already a smaller
| bike lane. This new lane is now mostly empty and the
| remaining two lanes have traffic jams now with sirens all
| the time because emergency vehicles can't pass anymore.
| And I just think it's stupid and annoying. There was
| already a perfectly fine bike lane. There is also a tram.
| Why expand that bike lane now and cause traffic jams, I
| don't understand. Seems like it's just for virtue
| signalling, oh look how modern we are and such good
| people, when in practice it's barely used, not needed and
| cause traffic jams.
| mFixman wrote:
| Cars cause traffic jams.
| jeromegv wrote:
| "Barely used", citation needed. Even in not-very-friendly
| cities for bike like Toronto, most bike lanes have higher
| amount of bike riders than the cars on the street.
| jeromegv wrote:
| Bikes solve the problem of the last-mile. Subways are
| expensive to build and dig, bikes gets you much further
| and literally anywhere. Add a bike station at your subway
| station and you have both working together.
| pvaldes wrote:
| > it's safer
|
| That depends. Not in a crash event. A bike can't match the
| safety measures that even the dumbest car has today.
| Hitting an obstacle in a car with seatbelts and airbags, or
| hitting it in a bike are totally different cases, even at a
| lower speed.
| analog31 wrote:
| As a thought experiment, take any American city, remove the
| bikes, and see if the congestion goes away.
|
| Now, remove the cars that are being used for unnecessary
| luxury, such as organizing your entire lifestyle and schedule
| around the availability of unlimited single-occupancy car use
| and generous parking.
| unglaublich wrote:
| A car in a city center, _that_ is the unnecessary luxury.
|
| > Until then, it's at the expense of general mobility which
| is a really big downside in cities that are already crowded
| and transport is slow.
|
| Automobiles are the sole reason why general mobility is so
| poor in cities that are crowded (with cars) and where
| transport is slow (due to cars).
|
| Please take a look at cities in Denmark or The Netherlands.
| Cycling is the primary mode of transportation in their city
| centers. Not only is it cheap, reliable, healthy and it
| doesn't take up much space... it's also _faster_ than driving
| a car.
|
| Yes, cars are practical for rural and long-distance travel,
| but not for use in city centers.
| jseban wrote:
| A bike lane that's only used when the weather is nice, when
| you already have a subway? No _that_ is unnecessary luxury.
| Take the subway if you hate cars.
| jseban wrote:
| > Cycling is the primary mode of transportation in their
| city centers.
|
| It's not when there's cold rain in the winter, guarantee
| it.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| You should probably tell the Dutch that they don't cycle
| in the rain. Over 1/3rd of days are rainy in the
| Netherlands on average and yet they somehow manage to put
| on their ponchos.
| jseban wrote:
| I would love to see the difference in bike use in the
| Netherlands relative to the weather, I bet only a small
| fraction will use the bike in bad weather conditions and
| they will need capacity in public transport to cover for
| these days.
| enriquto wrote:
| I think the worse is rain in hot summer. You'll end up
| soaked whether you cover or not. Winter rain is OK, you
| just need appropriate clothing. Source: I cycle during
| the whole year, and sub-zero temperatures are not a
| problem at all (for a couple of weeks at most in my
| latitude, but still), even if it rains.
| jseban wrote:
| I disagree, it's a very real annoying problem to dress
| your whole body in both warm _and_ waterproof clothes,
| and even if you like it, most people don 't. And it is
| objectively, relatively, much less convenient and much
| less comfortable than the alternatives of a bus/subway.
| enriquto wrote:
| > much less convenient and much less comfortable than the
| alternatives of a bus/subway
|
| This is quite subjective... For one, I've commuted by
| bus+subway for most of my life, in three different
| European cities (Lisbon, Barcelona and Paris). Two years
| ago I had a sort of epiphany looking at the bike lane
| that followed the same path as my crowded bus. I bought a
| bike, in order to "try" the bike commute, and I've never
| looked back since. Even some days with hard weather, I
| prudently walk to the bus stop, and then say "no shit"
| and walk back home to pick my bike.
|
| Thus I politely disagree with you that it is "much less
| convenient", at least for everybody.
| mucholove wrote:
| Someone already linked to Oulu which proves that biking may be
| unaffected by freezing temps.
|
| On the other end of the spectrum, and unanserwed in the article
| here--Sevilla might be a great place to study the effect of
| heat.
|
| https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/10/13/best-practices-how-se...
| ikurei wrote:
| Unaffected? I don't think so.
|
| Oulu proves that temperature is a surmountable obstacle. I
| think the parent comment was right in that biking is very
| difficult to sell when those circumstances aren't right, even
| though some cities might overcome anything with sufficient
| bike culture and good infrastructure.
| Kafkish wrote:
| How many places in the world would you get +35 Celsius (95 F)
| in the morning?
| retrac wrote:
| Not too rare in parts of the southern USA in the summer. But
| you also have the return bike trip home in the afternoon...
| and by then it might be 40.
| soared wrote:
| The southern us doesn't even walk, much less bike. The car
| infrastructure down here seems insane, but you literally do
| get covered in sweat walking from your car to a building.
| The southern us is not good for the outdoors due to
| weather, and because no one bikes/walks the infrastructure
| is horrible.
|
| (I'm in Tennessee on vacation, walking everywhere. Many
| sidewalks just end, no crosswalks, etc. biking here would
| be dangerous)
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Knoxville and Nashville have walkable potential in the
| core, and of course Asheville, NC, but outside of that,
| the south is as you said very pedestrian unfriendly.
| soared wrote:
| Oddly enough I'm in Chattanooga and going to Knoxville
| tomorrow. I'll find out :)
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I highly recommend the UT Gardens, the Sunsphere, Remedy
| Coffee, and Yassin's Falafel House if you're looking for
| suggestions. Enjoy!
| Kafkish wrote:
| In the Dallas-Fort Worth area of Texas, the city of
| Richardson is very bike- and pedestrian-friendly. The
| area around the Univ of Texas at Dallas is especially so.
| Kafkish wrote:
| Sure, but on the return trip, you'd be heading home, so
| sweating should be no big deal.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| That depends on your age and cardiovascular health.
| Overexertion in heat can be deadly.
|
| I am 43, I have no chronic disease, but I would be afraid
| of more than just sweating if I went on a biking trip in
| that temperature. Sometimes I feel unwell even when
| walking in such heat.
| wott wrote:
| It is much easier to ride a bike than to walk in the
| heat. Because you create your own wind.
|
| If I stay at home and walk around I have troubles
| breathing when it's over 35degC, I have been several
| times on the verge of fainting when it lasts a bit too
| long over that temperature.
|
| But I don't have a problem biking at that temperature or
| above. I've ridden for hours in temperatures near 40degC
| with no shade. As long as I get plenty of air, it's OK:
| it lowers the temperatures and I can breath. I mean, I
| prefer if it is 15degC lower :-), but it feels much
| better than walking.
|
| Now in such circumstances you'd better not get caught in
| a climb, when your speed drop under say, 8 mph, because
| then you don't get any wind, while being on max effort.
| That's horrible. It happened to me once in a small
| mountain pass, on a road which looked like it had been
| painted black to make things worse. I had to climb down
| the sharp slope on the road side as I could, to find the
| shade of the few bushes which were around and stay there
| a few minutes, because I felt my temperature was rising
| way too much. Never again.
| Kafkish wrote:
| Then the problem is not the heat, but your fitness level,
| which regular biking, jogging will improve. It did for
| me. After about 20 years of no exercise, just sitting in
| front of a computer, I decided last November to start
| exercising (jogging. Bad knees make biking a bad idea)
|
| My 1st day out jogging, I could only go 0.5 miles non-
| stop before I almost passed out. Today I can do 5.5 miles
| non-stop. My cardiovascular system is in the best shape
| it has been in a long time. And I'm almost 60.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I have quite a lot of exercise, but I have hard time
| tolerating high temperatures in general, and it has been
| getting worse with age. I should have been born somewhere
| in Siberia.
| kzrdude wrote:
| On Arrakis, it's even worse.
| Kafkish wrote:
| Arrakis? That's a fictional place, right?
| kzrdude wrote:
| Yes!
| jseban wrote:
| And the most difficult, practically impossible weather to cycle
| in, is winter rain. 0-5 degrees celcius and rain, good luck
| riding your bike. You literally can't dress for it, it's better
| to even walk because then you can use an umbrella. You have to
| cover your whole body in specialised clothing that's both warm
| insulating, and fully waterproof. Your feet, your hands, and
| even then, your head, your face...
| input_sh wrote:
| I've driven bikes on -5 while snowing no problem. I've also
| _not_ driven a bike when the temperature increased to
| positives because the bike lanes weren 't cleared of the snow
| that fell on previous days.
|
| Then again, raincoats are far more convenient to me than an
| umbrella, I prefer them when walking as well. That may make
| me an exception instead of a rule. As for my hands and face,
| can't say I care if they get wet, but my opinion on that
| would probably change if I was wearing makeup.
| jseban wrote:
| If it's light snow, it doesn't matter because it's dry, so
| you only have to dress warm, not warm _and_ waterproof.
|
| You do care if your hands get wet when it's +2 degrees,
| because you will freeze and get sick.
|
| What I'm talking about is cold rain, not dry snow. And if
| the snow gets heavier, you won't see, you have to wear ski
| goggles. Literally
| sveme wrote:
| That's winter in Munich; plenty of people, me included, don't
| mind.
| jseban wrote:
| It doesn't matter if you and "plenty of people" don't mind,
| the important part is that the majority of people do mind,
| and will not cycle in cold winter rain.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Children are much more fragile than adults to cold and hot.
| It does not matter if a fit adult can do it, you need to
| adapt it to the weakest link.
| Steltek wrote:
| I bike with my kids in -12C. You dress like they're going
| sledding or skiing. It's fine. If you live in a cold
| climate, you just have that stuff anyway.
| Tarsul wrote:
| it's pretty typical in Germany that kids of all (school)
| ages bike to and from school, basically every day of the
| year. I did.
| branko_d wrote:
| Subzero temperatures don't seem to be that much of a problem,
| as the Finnish city of Oulu shows us:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulu
|
| _" Oulu is notable for its transportation network dedicated to
| non-motor vehicular traffic, including pedestrians and bicycles
| (termed "light" traffic in Finland). In 2010, the city
| contained more than 600 kilometres (370 mi) of pathways and
| more than 100 underpasses and bridges devoted exclusively to
| light traffic. The network is used year-round. The ratio of
| light traffic pathways to residents is the highest in Finland
| and the cycling mode share is 20 percent.[40][41] Oulu is often
| touted as an excellent city for bicycling."_
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > the Finnish city of Oulu
|
| seaside resort of 208,939 inhabitants
|
| Many cities have roads and bridges only devoted to light
| traffic, the real issue is that they are not excellent for
| biking. In many large cities the biggest problem is
| distances.
|
| Sub zero temperatures are an issue even for professional
| bikers at Tour de France.
|
| When the road conditions are not uniform and distances are
| longer than a few minutes ride they can cause serious
| problems.
|
| For example imagine going uphill and then down, exposed to
| the chilling weather and the consequences on a casual bike
| user.
| jseban wrote:
| It correlates with socialist values and/or poor economy.
| rdxm wrote:
| I think you'd be a little surprised. I have a friend in Chicago
| who's bike commuted year round now for decades.
|
| That's anecdotal for sure but once you are acclimatized to
| winter I think the gating criteria is more around a secure
| place to park your bike during the day.
|
| I have another work buddy in Minneapolis who sends me pictures
| of the temp guage on his Fat-Bike of like -20F training rides
| in Jan and Feb... yikes!!!!
| throw7 wrote:
| I agree with other replies: infrastructure is the deciding
| factor (not climate or terrain).
|
| The way to see and understand "infrastructure" is: what if
| gov't was cycling-centric instead of car-centric. All the
| "infrastructure" you see around cars? Do that for cycles. There
| would be safe, separate, well-maintained, direct routes to all
| points, all year long, 24-7.
|
| My own belief is that this is not possible in the U.S. without
| a change of culture. We can't even get respect for
| pedestrians... in winter here, plows will dump snow right over
| sidewalks (it will take days for them to be cleared if at all
| in some places). my 2 cents.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| I've been in Barcelona during a summer month during a heat
| wave. People still biked and walked, many of the streets and
| paths will be shaded at least on one side by the three to five
| story buildings on most streets except when the sun is directly
| overhead, and down the middle of some boulevards there are some
| very generously wide paths and trees providing shade. It's a
| very different experience from Houston which is pancake flat by
| comparison to Barcelona, Barcelona actually has hills.
| gnabgib wrote:
| 2 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28956256 (3pts,
| no discussion).. despite 3 posts, this article hasn't got much
| traction.
| daneel_w wrote:
| By choice I use a bicycle exclusively for all my transport needs
| (with the obvious exceptions like furniture etc.), and I'd like
| to see more people get up on a bike regularly to help promote the
| people's collective health, but I can see a problem with how this
| particular practice is executed. How high is the risk that these
| children might grow into the reckless assumption that the entire
| road (especially the middle of the road) is theirs for the taking
| as soon as they get up on their bikes?
| soared wrote:
| Seemingly low I'd think. On the bike bus they've got hundreds
| of kids and parents around them and a police escort, so it's
| not a normal biking situation. Plus parents likely are teaching
| kids bike safety.
|
| Biking in this bus formation and biking normally are separate
| enough that it doesn't seem to be a concern. IMO that's like
| asking if kids don't where seat belts on a normal bus, are they
| then at risk of not wearing seat belts in normal cars?
| daneel_w wrote:
| _" Biking in this bus formation and biking normally are
| separate enough that it doesn't seem to be a concern. IMO
| that's like asking if kids don't where seat belts on a normal
| bus, are they then at risk of not wearing seat belts in
| normal cars?"_
|
| I don't think you put much thought into your reasoning.
| You're conveniently forgetting that people have a knack for
| developing bad habits, and children have a knack for picking
| up everything their parents do and cementing it.
| enriquto wrote:
| But cycling in the middle of your lane is a good habit. It
| is explicitly recommended! The bicibus may thus help people
| to do it and reclaim the road.
| daneel_w wrote:
| I'm all for reclaiming and equally sharing the roads that
| _all of us paid for_ , but it can't be done by biking
| recklessly in the middle of car traffic. It has to
| achieved politically.
| enriquto wrote:
| There's nothing reckless in cycling in traffic. If
| anything, some car drivers can be reckless by driving
| dangerously close to cyclists. Cycling on the streets is
| a right that we _already_ have and that cyclists already
| paid for. The only thing that remains to be achieved is
| that a vocal minority of motorists accept this fact.
| soared wrote:
| My opinion was that habits for bike bus trips wouldn't
| transfer to normal biking because the context of the
| activities are so different.
| daneel_w wrote:
| Yes, context separation definitely sounds like something
| children are prone to... Have you ever met children?
| henvic wrote:
| This happening organically is way better than any state-sponsored
| policy down the throats of everyone (which includes policies that
| end up making most traffic to become by cars instead of smaller
| vehicles or public transit, of course).
| agumonkey wrote:
| organic is great, now we need more of that for all aspects of
| life, and hopefully some simple large integration of efforts to
| keep them stable and efficient (after all we have near free
| computing to communicate, analyse and organize, so why not)
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