[HN Gopher] What We Lose When We Lose Thomas Jefferson - By Samu...
___________________________________________________________________
What We Lose When We Lose Thomas Jefferson - By Samuel Goldman
Author : hui-zheng
Score : 22 points
Date : 2021-10-22 18:53 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (bariweiss.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (bariweiss.substack.com)
| chuckee wrote:
| Jefferson more than just didn't live up to his ideals by owning
| slaves. His ideals themselves would be anathema today:
|
| _Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that
| these people [negros] are to be free. Nor is it less certain that
| the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government.
| Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction
| between them. It is still in our power to direct the process of
| emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow
| degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and their
| places be, pari passu, filled up by free white laborers. If, on
| the contrary, it is left to force itself on, human nature must
| shudder at the prospect held up._
| -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery
|
| Rather conflicts with the narrative that the US was founded as a
| melting pot nation.
| TheMonarchist wrote:
| It was a melting pot of the British, the Irish, the Dutch, the
| French etc. In the old world all nations lived relatively
| isolated, save them whose profession involved travel, that was
| expensive and painstaking.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The Irisih? You'd find many that would oppose the integration
| of their culture into American culture at the time. Let alone
| German culture.
|
| Make no mistake, the USA at the outset was meant to be an
| Anglo nation, not a melting pot.
| 1cvmask wrote:
| Statues are all about symbolism.
|
| Invading soldiers removed the statue of the Iraqi leader:
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/toppling-sadda...
|
| The statues of communist heroes are removed by law in Ukraine.
|
| Societies change and evolve with time, either endogenously or
| exogenously (they are invaded), and thus the symbols change.
| Todays hero is tomorrows zero.
|
| Clearly Thomas Jefferson is anathema to enough people in New York
| City to be taken down. Among the reasons they cite is that he was
| a slaveowner. By that benchmark they will have to take down a lot
| of statues and rename a number of bridges and schools.
|
| Eventually the fight will come to the pictures on cash currency.
|
| -
|
| The irony is this is published by Bari Weiss. She has a history
| of being a cancel culture advocate herself:
|
| https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...
|
| And using accusatory words and ad hominem that she does not
| herself know the meaning of:
|
| https://twitter.com/turncoatd/status/1268691071342501888
| nuerow wrote:
| > _Statues are all about symbolism._
|
| Statues, and monuments, are way more than symbolism. Their
| purpose is to shape the public opinion regarding specific
| values and look up to the ideas that the statues and monuments
| represent, so that they become an ever-present reminder to
| everyone of what values the ruling regime wants to be adopted
| and followed by the populace.
| kradeelav wrote:
| Good point with symbolism.
|
| I could be wrong, but to your last part - the sense I've gotten
| from her recent writing as of the last two years is she's
| changed her mindset regarding cancel culture (if not in whole,
| then a large part). not that i'd call it atonement outright,
| but that she's focused a lot more lately on those who've been
| "cancelled" and talking with them 1-on-1 and showcasing what
| they have to say.
| krrrh wrote:
| It's amazing that the same two links always get repeated as if
| they diminish an impressive career as a journalist and editor.
| Greenwald has done important work, but his slander against
| Weiss is not one of them. David French was involved at the time
| of the events as the head of FIRE, here's his recounting
|
| https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/the-sliming-of-bari-w...
|
| French:
|
| > In fact, if you read Bari's own writing at the time, you
| won't find a call to terminate professors. Instead, you'll find
| a critique of a department that she had good reason to believe
| had lost its way. That's free speech. That's an exercise of her
| own academic freedom. It's not a shout-down. It's not a threat.
| It's a debate.
|
| Regardless, it's sad that our culture today makes it so normal
| to attack a 37-year-old with a strong record of free speech
| advocacy during her actual career over something she's accused
| of doing while in college. Accusations of hypocrisy require a
| statue of limitations.
| StanislavPetrov wrote:
| >Clearly Thomas Jefferson is anathema to enough people in New
| York City to be taken down.
|
| Don't mistake the will of the people of New York City with the
| will of the bureaucrats who made this decision. For a variety
| of reasons they have very little, if anything, in common.
| xrd wrote:
| "The question, though, is whether everyone implicated in slavery
| is ipso facto ineligible for public celebration."
|
| The answer is yes. You can celebrate him privately. We can
| criticize publicly his incredible hypocrisy. Or just note that
| his document said men and everyone knows it meant white men, a
| dishonest omission.
|
| No one is going to put up statues of Bari Weiss. Her "voice" is
| just outrage pushing.
| jfengel wrote:
| I assume there must be some actual thing that Weiss does, but I
| have seen nothing from her on HN except being outraged about
| various supposed abuses.
|
| What is it that's supposed to make her relevant here?
| reactspa wrote:
| Jefferson was a slave owner who lectured others on morality and
| liberty. He used to beat and whip his slaves. He raped at least
| one underage slave to pregnancy.
|
| It's true that the Constitution is a good document (especially if
| you're a white man).
|
| We can lose Jefferson without losing the Constitution. We don't
| lose the Constitution by getting rid of a statue celebrating
| Jefferson.
|
| (Related: I look forward to Weiss and Goldman celebrating the
| water-colors of Adolf Hitler [masterpieces, IMHO]. Gotta separate
| the man from his art!)
| willcipriano wrote:
| Jefferson created what is called the Jefferson Bible[0], it is
| the story of new testament without any magic or superstition. It
| primarily consists of the words of Jesus and his moral teachings
| over his worldly actions. I think it's best to read Jefferson in
| a similar way. As a paragon of virtue Jefferson fails, but he has
| some wisdom to share on the nature and design of large scale
| human organizations. I don't think Jefferson would've wanted to
| look over the New York City Council anyway, he's probably much
| more at home in a library or museum.
|
| [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-10-22 23:02 UTC)