[HN Gopher] The monopoly strategy behind the Google/Microsoft mo...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The monopoly strategy behind the Google/Microsoft mobile patent
       wars
        
       Author : webmaven
       Score  : 79 points
       Date   : 2021-10-22 14:42 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (pluralistic.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (pluralistic.net)
        
       | AlbertCory wrote:
       | A general comment about patent trolls ("NPEs") business model. I
       | actually heard a presentation by a (former) troll about this.
       | 
       | They buy a patent which looks good, i.e. applies broadly, hasn't
       | been litigated unsuccessfully, has a few more years to run,
       | ideally has been tested by an unsuccessful IPR. The whole goal is
       | to make back the investment in a few years. Contrary to what
       | someone said, there is _not_ an infinite supply of those.
       | 
       | Then they pick out easy targets to sue, i.e. companies which just
       | settle without much fuss. Those settlements don't have to be for
       | large amounts, and typically are not.
       | 
       | I should correct the word "sue." Often there is no lawsuit. If a
       | defendant is formally notified that they might be sued, they can
       | seek a Declarative Judgment (DJ) in a friendly venue, which
       | affirms that they're not infringing. The troll does _not_ want to
       | be DJ 'ed. So they just threaten without really threatening
       | ("hey, you might want to take a look at this patent!").
       | 
       | Those easy targets build up a war chest, which the troll then
       | uses to go after the bigger and harder targets. These are
       | companies that will fight back, often with an IPR.
       | 
       | So the moral is: make yourself a hard target. Never roll over for
       | those people.
        
       | ece wrote:
       | Things like OIN[0] didn't exist when MS and Google bought
       | companies to strip them of their patents. They do exist now, and
       | it's basically a truce over fighting on patents.
       | 
       | The Bork view on anti-trust definitely has favored these
       | companies, and Apple and Google can absolutely be accused of
       | having and using monopoly power to keep competitors out. Google
       | pays to be the default search engine on iOS (keeping competitors
       | out), and Apple denies fair platform access to software it thinks
       | has a chance at competing with it's ecosystem (Tile, etc..).
       | Amazon and Facebook can be accused of this pretty easily too
       | (restricting 3rd party sellers, restricting API access
       | respectively).
       | 
       | The law[1] is pretty clear on this, but bills exactly like [2]
       | and [3] would clear it up more, which I believe Cory Doctrow
       | supports, at least from reading his Twitter.
       | 
       | [0] https://openinventionnetwork.com/
       | 
       | [1] https://www.justice.gov/atr/competition-and-monopoly-
       | single-...
       | 
       | [2] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-
       | bill/3825...
       | 
       | [3] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-
       | bill/3816...
        
         | gowld wrote:
         | What's the difference between keeping competitors our and
         | keeping yourself in? Some goods are unique or scarce and go to
         | the highest bidder.
        
           | ece wrote:
           | Those aren't the type of goods these companies are making.
           | All of these companies have durable market power (in search,
           | networking/communication, marketplaces); and can and have
           | used it to expand their own power like the article says, and
           | do it at the expense of smaller competitors. Hence the new
           | anti-rust view being one that stops such anti-competitive
           | actions.
        
         | AlbertCory wrote:
         | Re [0], there are zillions of these "open patent" initiatives.
         | Every week a new one comes along. It's easy to get lots of tiny
         | companies to sign up for them. It's a lot harder to get anyone
         | with a really valuable patent.
         | 
         | As for the Bork view: all those things you mentioned _are_
         | "consumer harm" and are not protected. It would be a lot more
         | fruitful to look at the lobbyist spending by the tech giants,
         | and the Astroturf "studies" they fund.
        
           | ece wrote:
           | OIN includes Google and Microsoft, and 43 other pages of
           | companies big and small:
           | https://openinventionnetwork.com/download/48946/
           | 
           | I hope the current lawsuits against these companies over the
           | exactly the things I mentioned should be easily decided then,
           | and we won't need the bills I linked.
        
       | AlbertCory wrote:
       | What an ignorant blowhard Cory Doctorow is.
       | 
       | " _This is a great strategy in light of US anittrust [sic]
       | theories over the past 40 years, during which time antitrust
       | regulators promised to leave companies alone as they formed
       | monopolies, provided they didn 't hike price after attaining
       | monopoly dominance._"
       | 
       | No, Cory, that's not what happened and there was no "promise."
       | The new theory of anti-trust was "consumer harm." Hiking prices
       | is certainly one form of that, but so was forming a monopoly.
       | Microsoft was prosecuted for forming a monopoly and reducing
       | consumer choices.
       | 
       | " _Google 's true operating costs aren't captured by adding up
       | its salaries and servers - a correct accounting must include the
       | costs of acquiring companies and with them, patents. That's the
       | cost Google must incur, if is to retain its power._"
       | 
       | No, Cory, those are not "operating costs," those are called
       | "capital costs." They're treated _real_ differently in
       | Accounting.
       | 
       | I was part of this "acquire patents" effort at Google. I actually
       | interviewed people to be in Legal whose job would be to acquire
       | patents. The theory (since discarded) was that a heavy patent
       | portfolio would give you a better negotiating position if you
       | were sued. There was no thought of actually _asserting_ these
       | patents against Microsoft, or anyone.
       | 
       | I actually used some of our internal tools to assess our patent
       | portfolio. Most of those Motorola patents were worthless.
        
         | cmrdporcupine wrote:
         | All of this information could have been delivered without also
         | delivering personal insults on the side.
        
           | johncena33 wrote:
           | Well, it wouldn't be HN if people couldn't post angry rants
           | about Google. 10% of HN is just a group of same people
           | complaining about Google again and again. Anytime I see a
           | link about Google, I know there wouldn't be any insightful
           | discussion. Just same people complaining endlessly about the
           | same things. I wish mods would do a better job moderating
           | this relentless tirades.
        
             | cmrdporcupine wrote:
             | Except in this case it's not against Google, but someone
             | being aggressive against someone taking a position critical
             | of Google.
             | 
             | Disclaimer: I work at Google, and I'm used to keeping
             | things polite when the workforce here is attacked on the
             | forum. So not sure why the reverse can't also be true.
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | Perhaps, but this is the second article by Doctorow this
           | week.
        
             | rektide wrote:
             | Cory is awesome & has an accurate, informed view on techno-
             | politics.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | tessierashpool wrote:
             | that's not a valid reason for insulting somebody. if I've
             | had to tone down my attitude to fit the tone this site aims
             | for, then I think you should too.
        
               | socksick wrote:
               | I get his annoyance. It's infuriating to keep seeing the
               | opinions of the ignorant elevated on HN as if they're
               | gospel. It's bad enough that this place is a shrine to
               | Paul Graham, let's not add any more fools to this roster.
        
               | rektide wrote:
               | Oh more undeserved out of hand insults, from another
               | camp, great!
               | 
               | Cory is a well networked, fairly thorough, informed
               | blogger. He participates in all sorts of panels on topics
               | of regulation, listens to a wide amount of voices. His
               | views typically reflect & meet with a wide variety of
               | other expert opinions.
               | 
               | It's really unfortunate that such easy, cheap character
               | assassination is being done against someone who has
               | spoken so well, with such unvarnished genuine interest &
               | care for what technology can be in this world.
        
         | cma wrote:
         | I doubt the little guy acquiring patents at behest of some
         | corporate initiative from executives actually necessarily gets
         | told the real reason. It would leave an paper trail for
         | antitrust. "Would give you a better negotiating position if you
         | were sued" is the exact kind of generic motivation you'd want
         | on something that's real purposes could look worse in an
         | antitrust trial.
         | 
         | Especially in light of stuff like "Google training documents
         | advise avoiding monopoly language":
         | https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/7/21358441/google-alphabet-t...
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | You and gota both need to read the literature on patent
           | strategy in maturing markets. This is well-known and informed
           | everyone's strategy in the 2010 era, Google's _and_ Microsoft
           | 's.
           | 
           | The literature says that in mature markets, the major players
           | all have cross-licensing agreements sharing their giant
           | patent portfolios, shutting out the minor players. They form
           | an oligarchy, in other words.
           | 
           | I may be a few years behind, having been retired for a few
           | years, but I don't think this has actually happened. It's
           | _possible_ that Google and Apple and Microsoft really do have
           | cross-licenses now, but I kinda doubt it. It would be too
           | complicated to negotiate. What they have is mutually assured
           | destruction.
        
             | webmaven wrote:
             | The difficulty of negotiating cross licensing deals has led
             | to the creation of large patent pools like the Open
             | Invention Network and Allied Security Trust.
        
           | gowld wrote:
           | The entire point of the patent system is to provide a legal
           | monopoly, as written in the Constitution. It's not a dirty
           | secret.
        
             | cma wrote:
             | A limited time monopoly on an invention. But antitrust laws
             | are allowed to break up stuff with too much power if they
             | engage in certain practices, and this can split up a patent
             | portfolio amongst the parts.
        
         | rektide wrote:
         | Wow uh.... hitting a bit hard there. This seems like a very
         | strong reaction, to something that seems straightforward &
         | accurate to me. So you've found a couple bones to pick to
         | justify these insults you're gunning to fire... here's my view
         | on them.
         | 
         | > _No, Cory, that 's not what happened and there was no
         | "promise."_
         | 
         | Borkism's "consumer harm" theory has, in almost all cases, been
         | centered around hiking prices. Given the lack of interference
         | we've seen for the past 40 years, whether or not there was this
         | "promise" seems moot: there has been a pathetically low level
         | of anti-trust enforcement. Whether promised or not, there has
         | certainly been a delivery.
         | 
         | That you can cite a single 20 year old Microsoft case does
         | little to convince me that there is efficient & active anti-
         | trust regulation. It was a pretty heinous act, by Microsoft, at
         | a time when there was only one mainstream consumer OS. But now
         | that there's two OSes, there's no need for anti-trust,
         | seemingly, and Apple is allowed to engage in far far far worse
         | behaviors on iOS with regards to only permitting Safari
         | technology to run, hampering the web. Social media companies
         | have faced no scrutiny in their bonanza of competitor
         | purchasing. The semiconductor market has undergone a radical
         | vast wave of consolidation, again, seemingly entirely
         | unchecked. Whatever the new Robert Bork "consumer harm"
         | standard might grant it license to regulate, it certainly
         | doesn't seem to be doing much. Proving those harms is much
         | harder & more specific a task than what came before, and has,
         | imo, been enormously clearly for the worse, as Cory continues
         | to rightly argue.
         | 
         | > _No, Cory, those are not "operating costs,"_
         | 
         | The entire basis of this post is that the accounting doesn't
         | reflect the truth of the matter. The accounting of acquisitions
         | as a one time capital costs isn't really genuine or fair, when
         | a constant ongoing stream of acquisitions is required to
         | maintain the power & position of dominance. The dominant player
         | has to keep feeding the meter to continue operating from a
         | position of power. Each of those may be a one time cost, but
         | the macro behavior is that this is not so different than the
         | grid hookup keeping the data-centers running. It sustains the
         | dominance of the entity. It's an operating cost, the cost of
         | staying where they are.
         | 
         | Your point about patents is entirely besides the point. This
         | isn't about companies using courts to try to destroy one
         | another- something we haven't ever really seen at scale in the
         | modern world. This is about Saturn Eating His Son. This is
         | about the gigantic titaneous overlords of the planet insuring
         | nothing new ever happens, preventing disruption. By acquiring
         | all freshness & devouring it, bodily.
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | > "That you can cite a single 20 year old Microsoft case"
           | 
           | OK, do you want some more? How about [1]?
           | 
           | If your point is that the tech giants have not faced enough
           | anti-trust litigation: you'd have to define "enough" as
           | "sufficient to break them up." Because they're still here.
           | 
           | The EU has been all over them, and almost every state AG is
           | joining in an anti-trust suit against them. Congress
           | investigates them every week, and we might _eventually_ see
           | some legislation. Democracy is slow. But yeah, more is
           | better.
           | 
           | Your last two paragraphs rely on a false premise: "a constant
           | ongoing stream of acquisitions." If there are acquisitions
           | going on, it's not for patents -- it's to eliminate
           | competitors. That's not a defect of IP laws; it's a matter
           | for legislation and anti-trust action. Which I support.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-
           | proceedings/151-0065/s...
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Please make your substantive points without name-calling and
         | personal attacks. You broke the site guidelines badly here.
         | 
         | This is particularly important when your view of the underlying
         | issue is actually correct, because if you post like this about
         | it, you end up discrediting not only yourself but also the
         | truth [1], and that hurts everybody. We're really trying to
         | avoid that sort of internet dynamic here.
         | 
         | I certainly appreciate that you have inside knowledge about
         | this topic and are willing to share it with us! That part is
         | great. I also understand (believe me) the frustration that
         | comes up when people make glib claims about a situation they
         | don't have first-hand knowledge of. But if you wouldn't mind
         | reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and
         | taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be
         | grateful.
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | OK.
        
         | gota wrote:
         | > I was part of this "acquire patents" effort at Google. I
         | actually interviewed people to be in Legal whose job would be
         | to acquire patents. The theory (since discarded) was that a
         | heavy patent portfolio would give you a better negotiating
         | position if you were sued.
         | 
         | Interesting! Can you expand on this topic? Does/has the
         | strategy work?
        
           | AnthonyMouse wrote:
           | The theory goes like this. The Patent Office keeps granting
           | overly broad patents to your competitors, who then show up to
           | sue you for unintentionally violating them. So you get your
           | own overly broad patents, counter-sue them when this happens,
           | and then they all cancel out.
           | 
           | The main problem with this strategy is patent trolls. Some
           | company that doesn't make anything buys up some broad
           | patents. Then there is nothing you can sue them over because
           | they don't make anything so the strategy doesn't work.
           | 
           | It also makes the whole concept of software patents pretty
           | useless, because the "defensive patents" could equally be
           | used to counter anyone who tries to sue you for violating a
           | "legitimate" patent. So the whole system becomes a bludgeon
           | for larger companies to use against smaller companies,
           | because they have more patents, even if most of them are low
           | quality, which means they can tie up anyone who actually
           | makes anything in court indefinitely.
        
             | AlbertCory wrote:
             | Some of that is correct, but patent trolls are only after
             | money. They like to settle quickly for a fairly small
             | amount, and move on. An effective counter-strategy is to
             | resist them (with IPRs, especially) because that ties up
             | their resources.
             | 
             | As for big companies suing smaller ones: citations (in the
             | mobile space), please?
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | You're asking for citations to things that happen behind
               | closed doors. "Big company pressures little company into
               | a buyout/capitulation" is bad PR for big company, so part
               | of the buyout/capitulation is to sign the NDA.
        
               | Nasrudith wrote:
               | There are still conspiracy theory leaker mathematics in
               | play here. Facebook can't so much as send an internal
               | email complaining about leaks making somebody's job
               | harder without it being trumpted as yet another great
               | wrong they committed.
               | 
               | It is within a space of possibilities but a sustained
               | lack of evidence decreases the probability of it being so
               | as numbers increase. It is possible that a given person
               | drove drunk without being caught. But if they drove drunk
               | everyday throughout many different towns and villages?
               | Less likely.
        
         | orangeoxidation wrote:
         | > The theory (since discarded) was that a heavy patent
         | portfolio would give you a better negotiating position if you
         | were sued. There was no thought of actually asserting these
         | patents against Microsoft, or anyone.
         | 
         | Doesn't it kind of prove part of the argument?
         | 
         | Google apparently felt threatened by patents, enough so to
         | acquire "second strike capabilities" as deterrence.
         | 
         | Seems to me Google though patents aggressive tools with the
         | purpose to hurt other companies or threatening to do so (though
         | defensively in this case).
         | 
         | I am really interested in the "since discarded" part, if
         | someone can recommend some reading.
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | It only "prove[s] part of the argument" if you rephrase the
           | argument to _your_ liking. You are also conflating
           | "defensive" and "aggressive." Kinda like saying Switzerland
           | is "aggressive" because they have mandatory military service
           | for all males.
        
             | some_furry wrote:
             | > Kinda like saying Switzerland is "aggressive" because
             | they have mandatory military service for all males.
             | 
             | I'm curious: Have you heard of the state's "monopoly on
             | violence" before? It comes up a lot in political theory
             | discussions, and it applies to this attempted rebuttal by
             | analogy.
        
               | AlbertCory wrote:
               | I've certainly heard of that theory. How is that relevant
               | to "defensive" vs. "aggressive"? You're saying
               | Switzerland is aggressive because they have a military?
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | Snild wrote:
             | Just to offer a more benevolent interpretation: I read that
             | "Google thought patents aggressive tools" sentence not
             | necessarily as any implication of Google's intent, but
             | rather an implication that Google were worried about
             | patents being used as weapons against _them_.
        
       | huitzitziltzin wrote:
       | Cory Doctorow is ignorant of economics and competition policy.
       | It's frustrating to see his thoughts shared here so often.
       | 
       | There is no credible economic theory of firm "power seeking".
       | What's more, you don't need such a theory to explain what's going
       | on here.
       | 
       | If you want to explain why Google paid so much for Motorola, you
       | can do so via the various defects in intellectual property law.
       | 
       | All large firms are at least occasionally involved in patent
       | litigation, frequently with patent trolls (though sometimes with
       | large competitors too). This is familiar enough to everyone on
       | this site. For Google this was a defensive acquisition, but a
       | defense against frivolous litigation. There is no need to invent
       | some theory of firm "power seeking" to make the case.
        
         | Ar-Curunir wrote:
         | Maybe ask economists if there's a 'credible economic theory of
         | firm "power seeking"'?
         | 
         | https://capitalaspower.com/
        
         | dmoy wrote:
         | It's like reading Paul Krugman talking about stuff other than
         | economics. Freaking genius economist with amazing papers and
         | articles (my personal favorite is his joke-but-actually-
         | realistic paper on intergalactic trade). But then he strays
         | into territory where he isn't actually an expert, connects a
         | few dots, and then publishes in his NYT column despite it being
         | mostly rubbish.
        
         | AlbertCory wrote:
         | "Everything is about power": this reminds me of the 4-year-old
         | who's just discovered a dirty word, and revels in its effect of
         | shocking the grownups, so he yells it at every opportunity.
         | 
         | Yes, boys and girls, "power" is sometimes a motivator. There
         | are other ones, though. Maybe read a few more books.
        
         | staticman2 wrote:
         | Doctorow seemingly believes most economists are full of crap so
         | isn't going to recite whatever theory you subscribe to.
         | 
         | He discusses his view of economics in this twitter thread here:
         | 
         | https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1450136949327425537?s=20
        
           | huitzitziltzin wrote:
           | It's funny to read that thread. There is stuff I agree with
           | there! And more stuff I disagree with or is totally
           | unfounded.
           | 
           | - First of all, I have no interest in or patience for Ayn
           | Rand. I don't know any economists who take her remotely
           | seriously. All of the American economists I know are on the
           | left politically. So are most of the non-American economists
           | I know. There are, of course, prominent exceptions to the
           | rule.
           | 
           | - I don't know why we are accused of having no theory of
           | prices? I teach that in week 2 of my principles of
           | microeconomics class. I don't teach inflation b/c I don't
           | teach macro, but they do have theories.
           | 
           | - We don't assume people have perfect information, with the
           | _possible_ exception of using it as a _very simple_ benchmark
           | case on our way to something more complicated and realistic.
           | Incomplete /imperfect information has been a central feature
           | of all theoretical and empirical work in the profession for
           | more than 40 years now.
           | 
           | - He shares a post about concentration in meatpacking. I
           | agree that we have allowed many markets to become too
           | concentrated, including meatpacking! I am in favor of
           | stronger antitrust enforcement! My entire sub-field is
           | empirical studies of imperfectly competitive industries.
           | 
           | - Skipping several tweets (there is really too much here to
           | argue with every point...) we have talked about the CORE
           | textbook in my department. Most of us put it on our syllabi.
           | It is free, after all. As a comment on Doctorow's take:
           | _every_ Principles textbook mentions the environment because
           | _every_ Principles textbook talks about externalities. I
           | spend a week on the subject.
           | 
           | Again, I confirm my impression that he doesn't know anything
           | about economics or competition policy, but studying it more
           | seriously would be to his benefit, _especially_ in commenting
           | on technology and regulation issues.
        
             | Nasrudith wrote:
             | Perhaps theory of prices has a totally different meaning
             | from "leftist" contexts? They operate under imperatives and
             | assume there is some sort of ideal formulae that ignores
             | that it makes the Knapsack Problem look log(n).
             | 
             | "What the market will bear." is a nonanswer to them even
             | though it is accurate because reality is messy with human
             | psychology more so.
             | 
             | Of course from mainstream economics perspective their
             | concepts of value and exploitation are between fallacious
             | (universal global value because labor is assumed as the
             | basis) to pants-on-head levels of crazy (the idea that a
             | fair trasaction becomes unfair when the buyer is able to
             | reap later profit).
        
         | monocasa wrote:
         | Patent portfolios aren't typically used as a defense against
         | trolls. Since they're overwhelmingly non practicing entities,
         | they're typically not infringing on anything.
        
           | josaka wrote:
           | It's a defense against trolls acquiring those patents and
           | leverage to force license on transfer deals with other large
           | cos.
        
             | monocasa wrote:
             | Trolls have no problems finding patents, it's not that
             | limited of a pool that you can suck them all up. And sure
             | about MAD with big companies, but that's orthogonal to my
             | comment on trolls.
        
         | guerrilla wrote:
         | > There is no credible economic theory of firm "power seeking"
         | 
         | How is the theory of market power combined with everything else
         | we know not that? [1] It seems obviously in the firms interest
         | even if their primary motive were still profit since it ensures
         | increased rates of profit (modulo risk of a regulatory
         | smackdown.)
         | 
         | 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power
        
           | huitzitziltzin wrote:
           | Market power is a well defined economic concept. I am an
           | economist who works on that issue. If he wants to talk about
           | market power I think that would be great! (Though not as an
           | explanation for this case.)
           | 
           | Indeed, I said I thought he was ignorant of economics in part
           | bc he brought up this weird "capital as power" thing which
           | has nothing to do (AFAICT) with _actual_ market power as we
           | understand it.
           | 
           | Furthermore, in this particular case I think you get a much
           | better, more direct explanation of Google's behavior vis-a-
           | vis its acquisition of Motorola via intellectual property and
           | patent litigation than via market power, let alone via
           | "capital as power".
        
             | guerrilla wrote:
             | They seem to be economists too [1] and it seems like he's
             | deferring to them. I haven't read their work but the way
             | Cory presented it makes it sound like it's just basic
             | Machiavellian realism[2] applied to economics and if that's
             | all it is then I'm all in. Is there something specific you
             | didn't like or just that the theory isn't presently popular
             | among economists? What's your alternative story of what
             | happened here? I'm not sure how intellectual property and
             | patent litigation would conflict with what he's saying.
             | 
             | 1. https://capitalaspower.com/about/
             | 
             | 2. https://iep.utm.edu/polreal/
        
           | Nasrudith wrote:
           | The idea of powerseeking is an outright reification of power
           | that conflates definitions by assuming the worst possible
           | light. Influncing the market doesn't mean complete control
           | over production - that is an obsession of Marx's ideological
           | descendants. Just influncing it in either direction for any
           | reason works. Providing it cheaper than market rates or
           | convincing others to pay more also qualifies.
           | 
           | If everyone in a village economy is capable of growing their
           | own food on the side for about the equivalent of say
           | $15/bushel averaged out but you have the specialization,
           | mechanization to grow it for $1/bushel margins. Even if you
           | wind up the only one growing food others still have their
           | fields.
           | 
           | If we call increasing efficiency "power seeking" then the
           | term has lost any and all meaning and only serves to confuse
           | and make the most mundane actions sinister by interpreting
           | them in the most conspiratorial light. If you drink commodity
           | coffee in the morning you actively to exploit the rural poor,
           | if you go with more expensive fair trade coffee you are
           | engaged in conspicious consumption of veblem goods while
           | people starve, and if you just drink water you are trying to
           | starve the rural poor.
        
             | guerrilla wrote:
             | What definitions do you believe are conflated? What "worst
             | possible light" do you believe is being assumed? I don't
             | think influencing the market means complete control over
             | production. I don't know how you see that idea as inherited
             | from Marx though and if it were, it would be fallacious to
             | reject it on those grounds. To be clear though the authors
             | that Cory is citing reject Marx in the first pages of their
             | book and I myself have no interest in Marx other than
             | historical.
             | 
             | We don't call increasing efficiency "power seeking." Yes, I
             | think many anti-capitalists would respond to that by saying
             | that "there is no ethical consumption in capitalism" and
             | that these problems cannot be solved by consumer choices.
        
           | jgalt212 wrote:
           | yes, but if you get powerful enough there is no regulatory
           | smackdown.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
           | 
           | https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34397551-the-
           | chickenshit...
        
       | throwawaysea wrote:
       | The link here isn't exactly the right one - the same thing
       | happened to me when I tried sharing this article previously as
       | well (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28933313). Either we
       | both pasted the wrong URL or maybe HN trims off the hashtag part
       | of the URL (with the #capital-as-power on the end of the URL).
       | 
       | Anyways, the correct link is
       | https://pluralistic.net/2021/10/20/vizio-vs-the-world/#capit....
        
         | webmaven wrote:
         | I definitely submitted the URL with the hash-mark and
         | fragment[0], so HN must strip it off.
         | 
         | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_fragment
        
           | dang wrote:
           | Yes, that's what happened. Sorry! I've put it back and will
           | try to prevent this from happening again.
        
             | webmaven wrote:
             | Given that there are sites that use fragment identifiers to
             | encode state, and users may be including fragments
             | mistakenly (eg. click a link in a Wikipedia page's TOC,
             | scroll to the top, share link), figuring out what to do
             | with some random URL submission that includes a fragment
             | isn't straightforward.
             | 
             | In THEORY, when the fragment is (semantically?)
             | significant, the site could dynamically alter the link
             | rel="canonical" value to include the fragment such that you
             | could check whether to keep it or not, but in practice I
             | think that canonical links are intended for web crawler
             | deduplication and so nearly always strip fragments off.
        
       | mips_avatar wrote:
       | The thing I think Doctorow is missing is the motivation at the
       | engineering level to get a patent. There is very minimal
       | strategizing between corporate attorney's about how the patent
       | might be strategic. If something is patentable, the engineering
       | teams will often pursue a patent mostly motivated from a bragging
       | rights perspective. It's a great way to give recognition to
       | engineers. Most of Google's/Microsoft's portfolio are collections
       | of patents like that. Maybe at a portfolio level there is some
       | strategizing, but not at the level of the engineers actually
       | inventing things.
        
         | mogopugh wrote:
         | The patents are usually at least nominally related to a
         | product, and the allocation of engineering to product is very
         | intentional. You're correct that there's some loss in that
         | process, and lots of funny business/perverse incentives
         | besides, but engineers aren't generally patenting _totally
         | random_ things.
        
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