[HN Gopher] How is bamboo lumber made? (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
How is bamboo lumber made? (2016)
Author : tomthe
Score : 329 points
Date : 2021-10-22 05:15 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bambooimport.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bambooimport.com)
| Waterluvian wrote:
| How does it compare to spruce/pine/fir in terms of environmental
| footprint for the same yield?
| for1nner wrote:
| Well we know that bamboo harvesting is more
| sustainable/renewable than wood harvesting (note the 4-5 years
| time to yield vs... orders of magnitude difference with trees,
| among other things).
|
| But I'm guessing your question is more about the processing of
| that bamboo (chemical and energy to produce):
|
| https://bioresources.cnr.ncsu.edu/resources/environmental-im...
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Thanks for the link. But I'm curious about the first part
| now. Why does yield time matter if you have all the empty
| land you could possibly need?
|
| Indeed this matters for regional supply and reducing
| shipping. But does it matter for other reasons I'm not
| thinking of?
| dang wrote:
| Some past related threads:
|
| _Why isn 't bamboo wood a bigger industry?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844258 - Jan 2019 (98
| comments)
|
| _Bali's 'magic' bamboo homes [video]_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18521724 - Nov 2018 (78
| comments)
|
| Then there were these:
|
| _Bikes built from Bamboo_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2846074 - Aug 2011 (2
| comments)
|
| _Bamboo Bikes_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=683085 -
| July 2009 (4 comments)
|
| _From bush to bike - bamboo bicycles_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=682329 - July 2009 (1
| comment)
|
| _Bamboo Bike Maker Grows His Frames, Bonsai Style_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=316325 - Sept 2008 (1
| comment)
| DeathArrow wrote:
| I wonder how long does take for bamboo to grow and if it can grow
| in US and Europe. Maybe it's economically viable to grow bamboo
| instead of cutting down trees.
| artificialLimbs wrote:
| The bamboo in our yard in Arkansas is about 30 ft tall already,
| only a couple years old. Pine is much softer and easier to work
| with as a general wood.
| t-3 wrote:
| There are actually American bamboos:
|
| https://www.guaduabamboo.com/blog/american-bamboo-species
|
| https://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2017/6/26/north-ameri...
| ben_bai wrote:
| Yes it grows in US/Europe. I only have experience with smaller
| forms (1inch, 2.5cm diameter).
|
| It's fast growing and spreads like crazy. Be careful with
| bamboo in your garden, it'll shoot out underground and
| resurface couple meters (yards) away from the main plant if you
| don't encase it in concrete.
|
| Now if it yields more then a fast growing tree? Don't know.
| op00to wrote:
| Growing bamboo is illegal in my North American municipality
| because it spreads so quickly beyond property lines.
| coldcode wrote:
| There are types of bamboo that do not spread like that.
| brensmith wrote:
| Yes to this! Bamboo root structure (rhizomes) can be broken
| down into two basic types, leptomorph and pachymorph.
| Bamboo that belong to the leptomorph rhizome group can grow
| many feet over a growing season, and have buds along their
| length that will grow into new rhizomes or culms (shoots).
| These are the classic runaway bamboo that folks worry
| about. Bamboo that have pachymorph rhizomes will (each one)
| grow into a culm and are thus much slower to spread around
| your garden. More like a clumping bush. I grow bamboo as a
| hobby in the Sierra Nevada mountains of California, and
| currently have about thirty bamboo plants of 10 different
| types growing in pots in my yard. I'm waiting to plant them
| in the ground at my next house for when I have root
| barriers to prevent the leptomorphs from spreading too
| quickly!
| throwaway743 wrote:
| Kinda sorta off topic, but recently, to my surprise, learned
| that every continent, except Europe and Antarctica, has at
| least one native bamboo species. Pretty neat
| tunnuz wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this, really interesting.
| iandanforth wrote:
| "Because laminated bamboo panels consist of individual strips,
| they show less swelling and shrinkage than solid wood panels."
|
| As a layperson this kind of statement could as easily have said
| "they show _more_ swelling " and I would have been equally as
| credulous.
| rabf wrote:
| Wood does indeed expand and contract a lot due to changes in
| humidity. The expansion and contraction is far greater in
| certain directions and will vary according to species and how
| the grain is orientated in a particular board.
|
| Laminiating strips or sheets in addition to the strength from
| the glue (typically in plywoods this is done with perpendiclar
| grain directions) can counter this.
|
| For a solid wood panel door for example you really want a very
| stable hardwood species for the frame and for the panels to be
| fitted without glue into recesses with room for them to expand
| and contract.
| hyuuu wrote:
| I wonder what kind of glue it uses, it's used in all of the
| processes
| wiz21c wrote:
| Yeah, I was surprised too. They talk about a lot about the
| bamboo part but not at all about the glue part. And the glue
| part is certainly the most problematic one. Also, but that may
| be too much interpretation, you'll notice that the dirtier the
| place/the job; the more you see women on the pictures.
| rexreed wrote:
| Specifically, formaldehyde-based glues.
|
| "Most manufactured wood building materials contain one of these
| two types of formaldehyde-based glues:
|
| * Phenol-formaldehyde (PF)
|
| * Urea-formaldehyde (UF).
|
| Its water resistant properties make phenol-formaldehyde glue
| more effective for production of exterior wood materials. Urea-
| formaldehyde glue, cheaper and less tolerant of excessive
| moisture, is most often used for interior materials including
| wall paneling, flooring and cabinetry. "
|
| More details here:
| http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.com/hhip-780-Formaldehyde-B...
| farmerstan wrote:
| Formaldehyde. It's actually pretty unenvironmental. Because it
| uses formaldehyde and other chemicals, you can't sand or
| refinish bamboo, and the dust is extremely hazardous.
| exochrono wrote:
| I just looked this up since I have bamboo floors I'm
| considering refinishing, and this resource[0] seems reputable
| and indicates that it's very doable but you should wear PPE
| to protect yourself.
|
| [0] https://www.flooringstores.com/blog/refinish-bamboo-
| flooring...
| maxerickson wrote:
| PPE is recommended for pretty much any wood dust at this
| point.
| zwaps wrote:
| How is the fire protection of bamboo compared to other woods?
| senectus1 wrote:
| I would love to know if there are any "hobby" communities for
| "doing things" with bamboo.
|
| I'd love to pot some of the fast growing stuff at home and
| harvest it to muck around with.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| The simplest thing (survival stuff) is you can cut a section
| leaving one node (I think it is called?) and use it as a cup /
| water heating vessel, or keep 2 nodes turn it 90 degrees and
| cut a hole in the top and you have something to cook in. Using
| a knife you can fashion a spoon for eating what you cooked.
| coryrc wrote:
| In the places where bamboo grows natively, it is used
| extensively, but typically not for long-term structural
| applications as bamboo is susceptible to rot and insect
| infestation.
|
| But it forms decorative elements: fencing, window blinds, or
| window framing[0]. Also tools like sumisashi (an ink pen) or
| poles for carrying things. Even scaffolding even on high
| rises![1]
|
| [0] https://www.dreamstime.com/japanese-windows-bamboo-strips-
| ba...
|
| [1] http://actuallyshop.blogspot.com/2013/01/hong-kong-bamboo-
| sc...
| aspaviento wrote:
| There must be for sure but one who has impressed me already
| with all the things he does with bamboo is this man
| https://youtube.com/c/%E6%88%91%E4%BB%AC%E7%9A%84%E5%B0%8F%E...
| Datagenerator wrote:
| This was our bummer of this year. We bought eighth small bamboo
| plants and expected to be busy on containing the natural
| explosive growth they should show. What happened was the
| opposite, small and no sign of growth. After some digging this
| retailer sells genetically modified versions which cannot
| grow.. Now we are looking for proper natural versions to plant
| these next year. So if you want to hear and see large patches
| of bamboo ask the retailer for unmodified plants. Naive and
| uninformed I tried to find seeds but bamboo doesn't have them?
| If someone can share some light on how to how grow them please
| chime in.
| coryrc wrote:
| You get a piece of root (rhizome) from a living plant and
| transplant that.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Naive and uninformed I tried to find seeds but bamboo
| doesn't have them?
|
| Bamboo certainly does have seeds. Bamboo blooms are big
| events.
|
| Blooms are big events because bamboo will go several decades
| at a time without blooming. But it has seeds.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| like DIY bamboo bicycle frames?
|
| https://bamboobicycleclub.org/
| KaiserPro wrote:
| One thing to note is that bamboo is hilariously invasive.
| moreso than japanese knot weed.
|
| Its has two modes of propagation: spreading its roots(rhsomes)
| or, at the end of it's life flowering and setting seeds.
|
| So, you should be able to dig up a good chunk of root (dinner
| plate size) and propagate from that.
|
| A good tool to have is a sharp billhook. its good for managing
| roots and branches.
| dehrmann wrote:
| You'd probably spend half your time mucking around with how to
| manufacture lumber. That might be fun on its own, just expect
| projects to take twice as long.
| [deleted]
| batushka3 wrote:
| There is more glue than bamboo in the bamboo products, but thaks
| to the marketing department they are ECO, and friendly and yada
| yada... Just look at the proces to get decent thich board/beam.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Isn't this the same with e.g. MDF and other wood composites?
|
| What glue is used, and how does it break down when exposed to
| the elements?
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| It's hard to figure out because they don't want you to know
| because they'd really, really prefer people to think of it as
| "bamboo" rather than "unrecyclable bamboo/petrochemical glue
| composite"
| nuerow wrote:
| Engineered lumber (MDF, OSB, glulam... all of them actually)
| also involves the same glues and chemical treatments used in
| bamboo, and both use formaldehide-based glues which are known
| carcinogens.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| Would lignin-based glues be a suitable alternative in terms
| of cost, effectiveness and long-term reliability (stability)
| or hasn't there been sufficient development to make them
| viable yet?
|
| Alternatively, could we revert back to safer traditional
| animal-based glues as a practical/viable option? That said,
| I'd guess that these days cost would be prohibitive as well
| as having environmental concerns not to mention their long-
| term reliability in that composites made with them may be
| prone to delamination, etc. (my experience is that animal
| glues get brittle with age).
|
| In a similar vein, one of the major problems with MDF, medium
| density fiberboard/particleboard, is the fact that the amount
| of binder used is quite inadequate which means that it has
| limited durability/lifespan. This is a two-edged sword of
| course, the more binder the more expensive it will be but its
| durability will be increased; on the other hand, unless the
| binder is environmentally friendly then sooner or later we'll
| have a polution problem. Nevertheless, the high-grade high-
| density stuff can be extraordinarily durable (thus it's much
| less likely to end up in landfills). It seems to me that we
| urgently need new very durable glues and binders that are
| also cheap, safe and environmentally friendly.
|
| That logically segues into the matter of artificial wood. I
| know, that process has been pitifully slow for obvious
| reasons but it seems to me we need a solution urgently as
| we're fast running out of both building and cabinet-quality
| grade lumber.
|
| _(Whilst, we may be able to keep up supply with fast growing
| building-grade lumber such as pinus radiata (and importantly
| bamboo), quality timbers are in desperately short supply and
| will continue to be so into the foreseeable future. For
| example, we 've precious little of timbers such as
| sandalwood, lignum vitae, ebony, and various Dalbergia genus
| rosewoods (retusa/Cocobolo, nigra/Brazilian rosewood,
| melanoxylon/African blackwood, etc.), as many take several
| hundred years to mature and no one had the foresight to plant
| forests of them back in the 18th Century! Thus, all of them
| are on the CITIES watchlist for good reason and have been so
| for decades.
|
| Moreover, they're essentially unprocurable for any practical
| purpose, and even if you can buy small quantities of them
| legally, then they're hideously expensive. For instance,
| African blackwood costs a fortune at well over $10,000/cubic
| meter, and when it comes to sandalwood we actually buy it by
| the gram ($85/100g): https://ventured.com/most-expensive-
| woods-in-the-world/
|
| Thus, there is no solution other than to artificially
| manufacture+ excellent, high quality, chemically-similar
| (complete with lignin, cellulose, etc.) facsimilies of these
| wonderful and very beautiful timbers.
|
| __
|
| + Even if we're still a long way off from having artificial
| timber as a practical reality, there seems to be an obvious
| way forward for at least part of the manufacturing process -
| that of additive manufacturing/3D printing, as the number of
| textures and designs it affords are essentially endless._
| oblio wrote:
| Why isn't there more of an uproar about this?
| DoneWithAllThat wrote:
| Uproar about what?
| reportingsjr wrote:
| Because people like low cost stuff. You can buy
| formaldehyde free plywood and MDF, but wow it's expensive
| compared to the formaldehyde containing products!
|
| Vinyl flooring that has become very, very popular recently
| is probably worse than wood composites with regards to air
| quality and overall toxic effects.
|
| Unfortunately, a lot of the effects from these materials
| aren't immediate and typically don't affect a large portion
| of the population, so it can be hard to get people to
| realize it's bad on a large scale.
|
| There has been more of a focus on indoor air quality over
| the last decade, I expect that to continue and that we'll
| see more of a push for materials that have better air
| quality properties.
| cheschire wrote:
| Uproar usually begins with the results of research and
| reports. That research and those reports typically
| originate from wherever the money is. That money typically
| originates from a new competitor entering the market, or
| from an established competitor trying to force change in
| market forces by affecting demand for the products being
| reported on.
|
| Occasionally uproar originates from someone's personal
| motivation, but that requires a rare alignment of drive,
| capability and charisma.
| legohead wrote:
| I'm not sure what nuerow was trying to say. Carcinogens
| aren't bad for you simply by looking at them. And it's
| widely known and often repeated to use respirators when
| cutting MDF.
|
| Now is the creation of the glue environmentally unfriendly?
| I don't know.
| nuerow wrote:
| > _I 'm not sure what nuerow was trying to say.
| Carcinogens aren't bad for you simply by looking at them.
| And it's widely known and often repeated to use
| respirators when cutting MDF._
|
| In case you are not aware, engineered lumber, whether
| used as structural elements, finishings, or even
| furniture, continuously releases formaldehyde into the
| environment. Consequently, there are health and safety
| guidelines to minimize exposure, which depending on the
| jurisdiction can vary around 0.03ppm and 0.01 ppm.
|
| Those who handle MDF in industrial contexts need to take
| a lot of precautions to be safe regarding the half dozen
| types of cancer linked with it's exposure, but the risk
| isn't limited to that context. Risk is determined by the
| degree of exposure, and lower-level but continuous
| exposure throughout longer time periods, which happens
| when you stay home, also presents a serious health risk.
| mhb wrote:
| Grandpa Amu makes items with bamboo:
| https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=grandpa+amu+bam...
| dan353hehe wrote:
| This probably made it to the front page because of yesterdays
| discussion on Hardend Wood. [1]
|
| In my mind I can see bamboo lumber just made with the Hardened
| Wood process being extra "green" as no glue would be required.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28945312
| kleton wrote:
| If you were doing the hardened wood process on it, you wouldn't
| even have to wait 4 years for the culm to lignify, since you
| were just going to delignify it with a hot chemical bath.
| dan353hehe wrote:
| Yep. I saw a sibling comment after I posted that mentioned
| that. It seems like a nice way to skip an additional step!
| Thanks for point that out!
|
| Also during the 4 year wait for it to harden it doesn't
| increase in size. So there wouldn't be a decrease in the
| amount of bamboo harvested, it would just allow it to be
| harvested every year instead of every 4.
| Cerium wrote:
| Bamboo is already harvest every year. Every year new shoots
| come up out of the ground. The shoots start to form in the
| winter about one meter away from mature culms. In the
| spring the shoots emerge from the ground and quickly grow
| to full height. Changing the harvest schedule will not
| increase the availability of bamboo, since already all new
| culms are harvest, just after they become four years old -
| the system is steady state.
| itronitron wrote:
| Exactly, and during years two and three the culms are
| adding energy back into the rhizome/root system enabling
| future shoots to emerge.
| dan353hehe wrote:
| Interesting! I didn't know that. Thanks for the
| correction!
| blunte wrote:
| Somewhat related, there are these amazing homes in Bali made of
| (treated) bamboo. I believe they are treated by soaking them in a
| boron solution which results in better resistance to decay and
| insects.
|
| https://greenvillagebali.com/
| colinb wrote:
| My standing desk top, a Fully Jarvis, is made from bamboo.
|
| Comparing the illustrations in TFA to the thing I'm leaning on, I
| think it is constructed of a core of side-pressed pieces, with a
| thin layer of plain-pressed pieces giving the working surface and
| underside.
|
| I've had it for < 1 year. It is a little soft, and shows dents
| and scratches where I set down moderately heavy objects with too
| much force, but it still looks nice. I guess I can think of the
| marks as evidence of actual use and life.
| etrautmann wrote:
| Almost all wooden surfaces will show dings and dents from heavy
| objects. Denser woods with a matte finish will show them less
| of course, but it's inevitable.
| samstave wrote:
| I installed all bamboo flooring in my house and then threw a
| party... some woman who was at the party was wearing 6" heels
| and after the party my floor was dimpled all over... she
| apparently walked like five miles within my living room,
| dining room, kitchen...
| dublin wrote:
| Interestingly, floor decks in airliners and load floors in
| military cargo aircraft are made from a composite of an
| aluminum skin and very high-quality end-grain balsa wood
| panels, laminated together in a huge press with film
| adhesives. (Used to be called Metalite by LTV, who made the
| stuff for lots of other aircraft companies...) It's lighter
| and stronger than any synthetic composite for that
| application. Load floors obviously need to take huge abuse,
| but still be light, and women's stilletto heels are famous
| for being able to exert several thousand pounds of force
| (dynamically) in a tiny area.
|
| FYI, women are also really hard on touchscreens - fake
| nails/nail polish is the hardest and most abrasive thing
| they come in contact with over their life except for drops
| on pavement. It's the main reason all decent touchscreens
| now have glass top layers.
| woobar wrote:
| Interesting. Bamboo flooring usually has higher Janka
| rating then other wood used for flooring.
| varelse wrote:
| Same nonsense I was told when I put in bamboo flooring.
| In my case it was destroyed by the late night shenanigans
| of an 11 lb cat. I think hardwood comes with its own
| tragedy at no extra cost. What we need is a flooring
| material that acquires character as people walk on it and
| scratch it. Edit: And it turns out we have it.
|
| https://www.sheogaflooring.com/flooring/textured-
| flooring/
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| Your desk is made from a manufactured bamboo composite
| muro wrote:
| Same here (same desk). Whenever my kids drop something heavier
| on the surface, it leaves deep marks. It's the most easily
| damaged surface we have at home. Does look nice where there are
| no marks :)
| roland35 wrote:
| If it makes you feel any better my solid "hardwood" workbench
| from Gladiator (purchased at Lowes) I use as a standing desk
| also has some dings and dents! I also figure it's part of the
| charm.
| 123pie123 wrote:
| >Strand woven bamboo panels are available in a maximum thickness
| of 20 mm, otherwise they would become too heavy
|
| Does anyone know what this refers to? too heavy for what??
| willyt wrote:
| Safety regulations say that one person should not lift more
| than 25kgs unaided. Obviously people can lift more than this, I
| remember hefting 50kg bags of sand around in the 90's but it's
| not great for your back.
| yarcob wrote:
| I assume they just mean that they get too heavy for practical
| use. They stated that they offer boards with a thickness of
| 30-40mm, they just don't offer panels of that thickness.
|
| At a density of 1200kg/m2 it's almost twice as dense as some
| other hard woods like walnut (~650kg/m2) or particle board
| (~700kg/m2).
|
| I guess for a kitchen countertop it wouldn't matter (stone
| countertops are popular and even heavier), but for most
| furniture it would probably be just way too heavy to be
| practical. Someone needs to be able to carry your furniture :)
| robinduckett wrote:
| Maybe too heavy to support its own weight?
| praestigiare wrote:
| At 1200kg/m2, a standard 4x8 (120x240) panel at 20mm is already
| over 60kg. This is double the weight of a softwood panel of
| equivalent thickness.
| boringg wrote:
| What about bamboo clothing?
| willvarfar wrote:
| A general question: how does forestry avoid degrading the soil?
| If you keep removing the plants that grow, rather than allowing
| them to rot and return the nutrients they sucked up during their
| lifetime back the soil, do the trees steadily grow worse until it
| is no longer profitable and you have to go grow trees somewhere
| else?
| tuatoru wrote:
| Most of the non-cellulose elements (the ones nneeded for life)
| are in the outer layers of the tree.
|
| Modern forestry machines strip off the bark and a little of the
| phloem (the living layer) _in situ_.
|
| But yeah, there is a slow loss. Partly made up by the
| micrometeorite dust that falls everywhere, and in some places
| by dusts from other places. For example, the Amazon rainforset
| is replenished from the Sahara.
|
| Deciduous forests are better at this. Deep tree roots break
| down rocks in the subsoil, recovering minerals that way, and
| leaf fall creates a realtively rich soil. Undisturbed virgin
| deciduous forests with deep soils have near 100% mineral
| recycling. The micrometeorite dust makes up the rest.
| coryrc wrote:
| Tree bulk comes from the air, not the soil.
| dragontamer wrote:
| And the next most significant macronutrient is
| nitrogen/potassium. Aka: typical fertilizer.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| The right plants catches nitrogen from the air. Fungus and
| microorganisms make minerals, like potassium, available
| from sand and rocks.
|
| This works great until someone destroys the soil by killing
| all microorganisms with pesticides or fertilisers. Forests
| are very good at producing a lot of biomass without help
| fertilisers, even when a lot of trees are "harvested".
| vinhboy wrote:
| I don't know why, but it took me years to internalize this...
| lol...
| riffraff wrote:
| likewise, took me years to internalize that when you're
| losing weight, you're breathing and pissing most of it: you
| burn C+H+O compounds, and expel CO2 and H20.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Yeah I mean, there's barely any solid residue when you
| burn fuel in your car when you think about it. There's
| some (carbon), but most is converted to CO2 and H2O.
| mellavora wrote:
| With credit to the other posters here, who do give correct
| answers as to how forestry is less destructive to the soil than
| other crops,....
|
| and assuming a clearcut/monoculture approach to tree farming
| (because the comp to foodcrop agriculture also ignores
| regernerative/permaculture techniques)
|
| forestry is massively disruptive to the soil, because it
| obliterates the ecosystem/community which allows forests to
| produce so much biomass.
|
| also, because the harvest cycle is measured in decades rather
| than years, the soil destruction also happens at a slower rate.
| Doesn't mean it isn't as destructive per harvest cycle, just
| that the cycle rate is slower.
| dehrmann wrote:
| Wood is mostly cellulose (which is all carbon, hydrogen, and
| oxygen). There's some calcium and potassium, but not _that_
| much. You are correct that it 's not entirely renewable.
| eru wrote:
| Not sure what you mean by renewable? Would carbon, hydrogen
| and oxygen be more renewable than calcium and potassium? They
| are all just elements we have a lot of on earth.
|
| And those elements don't get used up. Toss your wood on a
| compost pile, and you can re-use them?
| lopis wrote:
| The way the wood is treated, it can't just be composted. It
| contains too many chemicals that would contaminate the
| floor. You can't compost furniture.
| eru wrote:
| Sorry, compost was perhaps the wrong word. I meant,
| getting at the atoms ain't that hard.
| kenneth wrote:
| Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen come from the air, and are
| infinitely distributed around the earth via the atmosphere.
| Calcium and Potassium aren't.
| eru wrote:
| Yes, they got dig up somewhere. (Or you could filter them
| out of seawater.) I don't see any conceptual difference.
|
| The atmosphere ain't actually infinite.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| " Calcium and Potassium aren't."
|
| But they are allmost unlimited in the ground. A intact
| forest, with deep roots in symbiosis with lots of fungi
| and other microorganisms retrieves them and make them
| avaiable to the rest of the forest via leave fall.
|
| So taking out some trees at a time is sustainable.
| Chopping down all of them, is not.
| rini17 wrote:
| Phosphorus would be better example. Even if you take only
| part of organic matter away, as long as it's faster than
| phosphorus availability from rock weathering, there's
| going to be a reckoning eventually.
|
| Sure it can be added via fertilizer...if we'll be able to
| source such a quantity. It's not very abundant.
| max_ wrote:
| Does anyone know if this can make decent furniture?
| flimflamm wrote:
| I wonder how much energy this consumes compared to traditional
| wood equivalents?
| Maxion wrote:
| Land use at least is much more efficient when harvests are
| every 4-5 years instead of every 40-80 years with spruce or
| fir. Birch can be felled at around 55 years.
|
| Normal wood is kiln dried similarly to bamboo, and glued panels
| are done in a similar fashion.
|
| Plywood is in a way more processed than bamboo.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| We could do the same process with fast growing bush-form
| softwoods like poplar or willow that regenerate from roots.
|
| In fact a stand of young poplars doesn't look too dissimilar
| from a bamboo grove; lots of narrow straight trees.
|
| I cut two dying poplars on my property a few years ago and
| there's now a stand of dozens of 4" diameter smaller trees,
| sprouted out from the root system.
| h2odragon wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing
| F_J_H wrote:
| Related - cool "circular economy" company in Vancouver that
| collects chopsticks from restaurants and, using a similar
| process, makes some pretty amazing stuff: https://chopvalue.com/
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Considering how fast bamboo grows, this seems excessive.
|
| They're not even saving energy in doing this. Mulching those
| chopsticks would probably be much more energy efficient.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Bamboo is surprisingly expensive considering it is a C4
| photosynthesis plant that grows very fast in the tropics and is
| amenable to fully automated harvesting.
|
| Anyone know why? Why is pine nearly 10x cheaper despite turning
| less light into carbon, growing in places with less light,
| requiring semi-manual harvesting and having a far longer plant-
| to-harvest time?
| leoedin wrote:
| Has anyone worked with bamboo plywood? How does it compare to
| other plywoods?
|
| It doesn't appear (at least on the website linked) to be
| particularly cheap - a full sheet of 20mm bamboo plywood is
| almost EUR300! You could probably buy 3-5 sheets of 18mm baltic
| birch for that price - hardly the cheap material they're
| claiming.
|
| I bought a cheap chair made of bamboo once and it was very soft -
| it didn't give me the impression it would hold up very long.
| Perhaps some of the processing steps for plywood improve that?
| bserge wrote:
| Yeah I noticed the ads(?) at the bottom with the price. ~150
| Euros for a square meter? Damn. It's probably cheaper in
| China/Asia, but not here lol
| anon_cow1111 wrote:
| God, I remember working at one job where I saw a couple
| stacks of metal come in on a nice sheet of 4x8 woven-bamboo
| instead of a crappy wood pallet or plywood, I'm now kicking
| myself for not grabbing them when I had the chance.
| h2odragon wrote:
| Story time! My uncle had some contact in fruit shipping,
| and noticed that this guy got pallets of mangoes (i think
| it was) with bottom plate boards that were 3/4th inch
| _mahogany_ plywood. They 'd been burning them as scrap.
|
| He salvaged enough to roof his houses in barns near the
| Florida coast and never worried about hurricanes. I have a
| couple chunks of it that have outlived the steel frame of
| the flatbed cargo trailer they're floor for.
| yarcob wrote:
| I've never worked with bamboo plywood, but the product on the
| website looks like it should be compared with 20mm 3 ply wood
| panels made from cut hard wood instead of the cheap ply wood
| made from peeled wood.
|
| So a better comparison would be something like [1], which is a
| lot more expensive than standard birch plywood.
|
| [1]: https://www.arbeitsplatten-
| shop.de/epages/61566463.sf/de_DE/...
| lostapathy wrote:
| Baltic birch isn't cheap plywood - it's good stuff.
| yarcob wrote:
| I'm not saying it's bad, I've used birch plywood myself and
| I like it.
|
| But you can't compare the 13 layer plywood made from peeled
| wood with the stuff made from 3 layers of sawed wood. They
| are completely different types of product, and the cost is
| also very different.
|
| Apart from mechanical properties, the 3 layer stuff is also
| much nicer optically usually (eg. they use camera sorted
| boards to achieve nice and even patterns). That's why it is
| more expensive.
| lostapathy wrote:
| Birch plywood and baltic birch plywood are completely
| different animals.
|
| Regular birch plywood is indeed often the cheap stuff.
|
| Baltic birch will be void-free and of a very consistent
| quality and made from thinner veneers. It's much more
| stable and high quality product, although you're correct
| that it probably won't be as pretty on the surfaces.
| yarcob wrote:
| Too be honest I've never heard of "baltic birch" before
| so I can't comment on how different it is from the normal
| birch plywood we get here in EU.
|
| I just googled it and saw that it looks exactly like the
| birch plywood I have been using, so I assumed that it has
| similar properties.
|
| I consider birch to be "good" plywood, it's very easy to
| work with, strong, and seems somewhat resilient to
| warping. However, because the layers are so thin you
| often end up breaking bits off when working on it with a
| router, and the surface somehow doesn't get as smooth
| when sanding.
|
| The 3-layer boards (not sure what they are called in
| English) seem to be easier to sand smooth, easier to
| finish with oil, and are not as finicky when routing.
|
| Just from looking at pictures, I'd assume the bamboo
| boards are closer to the 3 layer stuff rather than the 13
| layer stuff.
| schainks wrote:
| Beautiful bamboo home featured on TED and AppleTV, for reference:
| https://ibuku.com/
|
| Note, little to no bamboo lumber used.
|
| I think these kinds of homes are an excellent idea for the
| billion or two people living in suitable climate for it.
|
| And maybe a bamboo lumber building can survive in harsher places,
| too. We will need to experiment to find out.
| giarc wrote:
| "I think these kinds of homes are an excellent idea for the
| billion or two people living in suitable climate for it."
|
| Yes, but people and bamboo have coexisted in these places for a
| long time, and majority of buildings aren't made of bamboo. So
| obviously other materials are cheaper/easier to work with
| otherwise I suspect they would have selected it as building
| material of choice.
| rexreed wrote:
| I posted this lower down as a comment, but some might be
| interested to know what specific glue is being used:
|
| Most manufactured wood building materials contain one of these
| two types of formaldehyde-based glues:
|
| * Phenol-formaldehyde (PF)
|
| * Urea-formaldehyde (UF).
|
| Its water resistant properties make phenol-formaldehyde glue more
| effective for production of exterior wood materials. Urea-
| formaldehyde glue, cheaper and less tolerant of excessive
| moisture, is most often used for interior materials including
| wall paneling, flooring and cabinetry.
|
| In its natural state, softwood lumber emits a tiny amount of
| formaldehyde. While PF-glued products typically emit 10 times the
| formaldehyde outgassed by softwood, UF resins can release at
| least 100 times more formaldehyde than the natural wood.
|
| A typical particle-board subfloor made with UF glue can release
| enough formaldehyde to result in a 0.3 ppm concentration of
| formaldehyde in a room. For healthy people who are not bothered
| by formaldehyde, the levels in softwood lumber and PF glue are
| usually not considered a serious health problem.
|
| UF glue, on the other hand, has been implicated is causing people
| to become hypersensitive; a good reason for healthy people and
| sensitive people to avoid UF glues altogether"
|
| More details here:
| http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.com/hhip-780-Formaldehyde-B...
| rexreed wrote:
| As a further point to the above, while UF and PF are very
| prevalent for engineered / manufactured woods and planks of all
| types, it's possible to make manufactured bamboo planks without
| the use of formaldehyde-based glues.
|
| You need to look for "NAF" (No-Added Formaldehyde) tested and
| certified bamboo products.
|
| More details at
| https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/documents/frequently-asked-...
|
| NAF glue alternatives and details:
| https://amienvironmental.com/formaldehyde-free-adhesives/
| sizzle wrote:
| What's with the distinctly sweet wood smell when you buy Ikea
| furniture, is it formaldehyde?
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Really neat article, love things like this on HN. I thought this
| was really interesting:
|
| > A bamboo stem reaches its maximum height in just a few months
| and shall not grow taller or thicker over time. In the following
| 4 years the fibers will "lignify" and get their extraordinary
| mechanical properties in terms of hardness, strength, density.
|
| That seems pretty fascinating to me. Are there any other
| plants/trees that grow like that? I mean, from my naive
| knowledge, trees go wider with a new ring every year.
| lazide wrote:
| Most trees won't grow that fast (well almost nothing grows as
| fast as bamboo). Usually height of a plant or tree is
| determined by the available shade (more shade, the more the
| tree will try to climb above it), and available water. Less
| water generally means shorter, and more (easy) sun usually
| means shorter, though there is a huge genetic element of
| course. Some trees will collect significant water from rain or
| fog when it's hard to get water up the tree from their normal
| transport methods (like redwoods) because of their height.
|
| A normal tree (which is slow growing) typically will get taller
| and wider each year until it starts maxing out something like
| water transport, or dies due to disease and competition from
| other trees.
|
| The rings you are referring to are generally gathered from the
| base of the tree as that is the part most likely to grow (for
| sure). If you go to the top of the tree, it's a bit harder to
| tell what has been going on.
|
| And the ring itself is formed when the tree stops growing as
| part of the yearly seasonal cycle.
|
| Bamboo doesn't have rings.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Yes, I know and understand all that. The new information to
| me was that, after shooting up quickly to its final height,
| the bamboo basically just grows stronger and harder over the
| next 4 years without changing its dimensions. Curious if
| there are any other plants that do something similar, or why
| bamboo would do this in the first place, evolutionarily
| speaking.
| monknomo wrote:
| Think of plants in competition with each other. The compete
| for water, nutrients and light. In a forest setting, light
| is at a premium. A common strategy is to grow upward as
| fast as possible to capture light and also to shade
| competitors.
| stephenr wrote:
| It's not a tree really but banana plants (especially the
| common type found in Thailand, which is not the common
| Cavendish westerners know) can grow ridiculously quick,
| particularly if the entire "trunk" is cut off - within hours
| the middle most growing stems will have extended up above the
| cut point a significant amount.
|
| Coincidentally they're a PITA to get rid of too - id argue
| worse than clumping bamboo.
| berkes wrote:
| > Most trees won't grow that fast
|
| Most won't but some do grow really very fast. Like the
| Willow.
|
| I live in an area with lots of Pollarded Willows. We have
| about 30 of them in our garden. They grow a ridiculous 2-3m
| each year (6-10ft). Often in just a few months.
|
| We'll cut them around now (autumn) down to 1.50m, and next
| year august they'll easily be 3-4m high again. Pollarding is
| rewarding but a lot of work.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow#Others
| reportingsjr wrote:
| I think a lot of other grasses have similar growth stages,
| where they grow to a certain height and then start other growth
| processes.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| With lots of glue. I don't know why cellulose building materials
| yet so much hype. Yes part of the product is renewable, the other
| half is very nasty and we've not yet seen a fair comparison of
| the entire supply chain pollution of these materials vs more
| common one.
| jayolden wrote:
| I have observed that Bamboo lumber is quite strong despite being
| soft. It looks natural and stylish in which you can get at an
| affordable price.
| TedShiller wrote:
| If you start with something that is natural and sustainable (for
| example, bamboo), and you add to it something that is neither
| (for example, glue), then you end up with something that is
| neither natural nor sustainable. Sorry.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| You seem to imply that it's a given that glue is not
| sustainable. Is that the case?
| aembleton wrote:
| Bamboo grows so much quicker that even with glue it might be
| more sustainable than using other woods.
| TedShiller wrote:
| What happens to glue when you throw it away?
| Veen wrote:
| PVA is biodegradable, I believe. But I suppose it depends
| which glue they use.
| kleton wrote:
| Phenol-formaldehyde thermoset breaks down into phenol and
| formaldehyde. It degrades a lot faster than polyolefins.
| op00to wrote:
| What happens to anything when you throw it away? It gets
| encapsulated in more garbage and stays there for basically
| ever.
| david-gpu wrote:
| Wood rots. It doesn't even take that long. Let's not
| pretend natural biodegradable materials are the same.
| DFHippie wrote:
| Not so much in a landfill.
| didsomeonesay wrote:
| capturing carbon?
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| Glues were made from animals for centuries and are animal glue
| is still phenomenal for a number of woodworking applications.
|
| It's also much more expensive than synthetic glue. This does
| not mean that a glued lumber product is necessarily unnatural
| or unsustainable, but rather that the price may end up being
| higher, and the properties different, when using a natural
| glue.
| eropple wrote:
| Totally right, but one thing I learned recently - hide glue
| isn't that much more expensive than the same manufacturers'
| PVA glues.
|
| (For folks who aren't familiar, though, animal glues aren't
| really substitutable for things like plywood; the ability to
| undo a hide glue joint is valuable in furnituremaking but not
| in plywood composition.)
| oblio wrote:
| Yeah, same thing with those transparent or hardened woods. It's
| wood + a ton of epoxy.
|
| Isn't epoxy made from fossil fuels, or am I completely off?
| hwillis wrote:
| about 1/3rd correct. It is not made with epoxy[1]. Bamboo
| lumber is made with urea formaldehyde just like plywood. UF
| is made from CO2, ammonia, and methanol[2]. Methanol can come
| from plants or from fossil fuels. Ammonia uses 55% of global
| hydrogen, and that hydrogen comes from fossil fuels.
| Typically natural gas. There are also No-Added-Formaldehyde
| brands that used soy/PVA/other adhesives which can rely less
| or more fossil fuels (PVA is wood glue- vinyl based).
|
| Engineering bamboo (flooring doesn't always use UF) has ~5%
| wt. UF, so 20 kg of lumber requires ~.4 kg of ammonia. Using
| a methane feedstock that translates to ~.85 kg of CO2. 4% of
| the CO2 captured by the bamboo, for context. Ammonia can also
| be made from water, via electrolysis- .64 kg per 20 kg of
| bamboo.
|
| [1]: UF does not contain an epoxide group. Note also that
| epoxide is an incredibly generic type of chemical- all it
| means is that two pairs of radicals and an oxygen form a
| triangular bond. Epoxides can take all kinds of forms and be
| made from all kinds of stuff. For instance Epichlorohydrin is
| used to make some of the most common epoxy resins and is
| produced from glycerol, which comes from plant/animal sources
| generally. Not all of it, but most of it.
|
| [2]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemical-
| engineering/ur...
| tyingq wrote:
| Epoxy uses BPA and ECH, both from fossil fuels, yes.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| This is a genuine question I've been wondering about, but isn't
| the glue basically the same as the lignin that holds the wood
| (and I assume bamboo) together naturally. If it's not, could it
| be?
|
| This applies to a lot of wood products like plywood and MDF not
| just bamboo.
|
| Looks like some people are investigating it:
|
| https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/using-lignin-as-a-sustainable-...
| stdbrouw wrote:
| In wood fiber insulation, some factories do manage to use the
| wood's own lignin to keep the insulation batts together,
| though apparently it's harder to manage for very thick batts.
| hahamrfunnyguy wrote:
| Not sustainable or cost effective. Look at the amount of labor
| and processing it takes to make one sheet of plywood!
|
| By comparison, plywood manufacture is a simple process. Entire
| logs are shaved into veneer sheets, rough cut, laminated
| together then finish cut.
|
| 302 Euros for a 4x8x3/4 sheet of 5-ply plywood that's inferior
| in most ways to hardwood plywood is crazy. By comparison, the
| same sheet of hardwood A-B grade plywood would run somewhere
| between $40-$80 a sheet.
|
| Trees are a great sustainable and renewable resource, they just
| take longer to grow.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Please note that this is not automated yet. I bet that
| automation could make bamboo plywood cheaper than hardwood
| plywood... with the same level of quality.
|
| I mean... Some species are ready to harvest in 90 days(not
| sure if those are applicable, though).
|
| But typical hardwood is decades of growth time to harvest.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| That's not true. Chemicals are -everything-. Unless you think
| everything "artificial" is bad then I think you will be open to
| realizing just because something manufactured doesn't mean it's
| bad by default.
| snarf21 wrote:
| Sure but so what. It is a question of _how_ sustainable.
| Cutting 2x4s from pine trees still use a lot of non-sustainable
| energy sources. Saws burn gas and so do the trucks of the
| people who cut them down, so do the trucks that hall the logs,
| so do the mills that cut them, and so on and so on.
|
| There are always more externalities we don't consider. To me,
| the question is whether bamboo worse than other composite wood
| products. Does it store more carbon? Does it store the same
| carbon but more quickly? Can it grow using less land? Does it
| last longer than what would be used instead? If it is at least
| neutral on all the other questions, does it have other
| properties that make it preferable?
| jgilias wrote:
| That's very absolutist thinking. Just because some solution
| doesn't solve all the problems outright doesn't mean that it's
| totally useless. What's the baseline? Using bamboo plywood
| thing instead of normal plywood? What's the end-goal?
| Increasing carbon sequestration when building stuff? Reducing
| ground water pollution? Something else? Where is the bamboo
| lumber used? How far is it shipped? For what it's used? Et
| cetera.
|
| Notice though that the article doesn't talk about
| sustainability, ecology, or being natural at all. It just shows
| how bamboo lumber is made. Which is interesting in its own
| right.
| geoffmunn wrote:
| It really bothers me when people try and pass off bamboo-based
| fabrics as being natural.
|
| It's called rayon and it's about as synthetic as you can
| possibly get.
|
| For those who are interested:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayon
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| There is also an article specifically on bamboo textiles:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_textile
| jameshart wrote:
| Sure, but 'synthetic' is a weird word. At root it just means
| 'made via synthesis'. Rayon is not made by synthesizing
| cellulose, though - it is made by extracting natural
| cellulose. You could say the fibers are synthesized - but
| cotton needs to go through a spinning process too. Where do
| you draw the line between 'synthesis' and 'manufacturing'?
|
| Sure, for rayon the cellulose extraction process is chemical,
| unlike the physical process used to get cellulose fibers out
| of cotton, but the raw material is still natural, plant grown
| cellulose.
|
| There are plenty of things that are made by taking natural
| ingredients, shoving them in a vat of toxic chemicals to
| transform them, then taking them out to use, which are
| generally still considered 'natural' products: leather,
| bleached flour, pressure treated wood, dyed cotton...
| _jal wrote:
| > Sure, but 'synthetic' is a weird word.
|
| Every word is weird if you think about it too long.
|
| At least in the US, this is pretty simple, even if it
| offends the sensibilities of category pedants.
|
| "Natural" fibers are cotton, wool, linen, etc. Processing
| is fine, so long as it isn't "too processed".
|
| It is "Synthetic" if it ends in '-on', or feels like
| plastic or rubber.
| jameshart wrote:
| Right.
|
| But thinking of Rayon and viscose as 'synthetic' means
| people assume it is not biodegradable, which isn't the
| case. It's about as biodegradable as cotton, or
| cardboard.
|
| In fact cardboard and paper are good analogs - I think
| people are comfortable thinking of them as 'processed'
| natural products, but not 'synthetic'. There is value in
| getting people to think of rayon as more like that than
| true synthetics like nylon and polyester, which create
| non biodegradable micro plastic pollutants.
| dd36 wrote:
| Pressure treated wood is highly toxic...
| quesera wrote:
| There are several different kinds of pressure-treated
| wood.
|
| The old bad stuff is CCA, which uses arsenic. It's been
| restricted (in the US) for about two decades, though
| still available for some applications. Home Depot does
| not carry it.
|
| The newer stuff is ACQ (several types) which are Al and
| Cu-based. Not considered toxic by the EPA, however some
| people (including myself) are still not comfortable using
| it for, e.g. garden beds.
|
| Sawdust of all woods is considered an irritant, toxic,
| and a possible carcinogen.
|
| Work outside, and/or use good dust collection. Always
| wear a dust mask.
| jameshart wrote:
| Yes, it's a construction material. I wouldn't recommend
| eating it. Same advice goes for reinforced concrete slabs
| and steel girders.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| I would advise not eating any kind of concrete.
| Ancapistani wrote:
| Oh, I don't know. I had a concrete from Freddy's a couple
| of weeks ago, and it was quite good. Peanut butter cups
| and bananas I believe.
|
| :)
| NortySpock wrote:
| > Where do you draw the line between 'synthesis' and
| 'manufacturing'?
|
| I assume the layperson will respond: "Synthesis uses
| chemicals, and manufacturing doesn't!" (visualizing a
| bandsaw or a punch-press machine)
|
| Of course manufacturing uses plenty of chemicals, but we
| don't always think about that when visualizing mechanical
| assembly processes.
| ofey404 wrote:
| "Technology is propulsion." Chinese characters written on the
| wall of factory workshop.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Reminds me of https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/vorsprung-
| durch-technik....
| Melkman wrote:
| Strange that that article states "There's no single English
| word which is an exact equivalent of 'vorsprung'". Vorsprung
| is lead. Durch is harder in my opinion. Can be translate as
| "by" or "because of". So the translations would be "lead by
| technology" or "in the lead because of technology"
| layer8 wrote:
| It means being ahead (of at least some of the competition,
| presumably) due to (better) technology.
| y4mi wrote:
| Vorsprung is anything that is slightly ahead, so you're
| wrong there. It applies to a lot more than you seem to
| think. It's frequently used in describing smallish
| platforms on mountains, buildings as well for example.
|
| The German term for "to lead" would be "fuhren".
| jameshart wrote:
| In the 'small platform that sticks out' sense the English
| equivalent would be 'projection' (interesting that that
| comes from a Latin root of 'something that is thrown
| forward', while the German word is more 'something that
| jumps forward'), but in the context of the phrase the
| other meanings of that word would dominate.
|
| There's definitely a sense of 'getting a head start',
| 'being at an advantage' to Vorsprung that is hard to
| capture in a single English word.
|
| Perhaps one way to translate it would be: _Privilege
| through technology_
| rrobukef wrote:
| "Leading with technology"
| hackerbee wrote:
| "Lead through technology"
| k__ wrote:
| Advantage by technology?
| noja wrote:
| Don't you find "through" a bit clunky, how about via?
| Also "Lead" can be misread as a metal, how about Leading?
| dublin wrote:
| Oh, so like you pronounce "leading" in stained glass or
| typesetting, then? ;-)
| noja wrote:
| No, but I often find people are more likely to read
| "lead" as the metal. Not really for "leading".
| bigbizisverywyz wrote:
| I always thought it meant 'leap forward through the use
| of technology'.
| samstave wrote:
| I wish I had a pic of the plaque wall at intel HQ, SC5 --
| there are a bunch of plaques from partners... and several of
| them have Engrish phrases thanking Intel for best to the
| future we go hand in hand for great cause and somesuch other
| awesome things.
| g0gzs wrote:
| Long time lurker here, first time poster. I got pulled into the
| rabbit hole of building guitars at home during the covid
| lockdowns. My first build used traditional "tonewoods" (mahogany,
| ebony, rosewood etc.) and while purchasing materials for my
| second build, I stumbled upon bamboo boards on a German wood
| retailed shop.
|
| Compared the properties to the wood I wanted to use for parts of
| it (mainly the core/neck and fretboard) and decided to go for it.
|
| So the second build [1] is 40ish % bamboo with purpleheart
| veneers in between layers of bamboo and purpleheart/olive for the
| body. Next build will be around 80% bamboo. Trying to source some
| strand woven bamboo boards to try them out as fretboards as well,
| but for a part time builder like me, getting such small
| quantities of bamboo boards is rather hard.
|
| But yeah, fascinating material even outside of construction use.
| The boards I used for the guitar builds were nice to work with,
| easy to sand and finish (using wipe on poly).
|
| [1] https://i.imgur.com/fUyxd7n.jpg
| fho wrote:
| May I ask what you paid in the end for the bamboo you used? I
| went down the same rabbit hole some time ago and in the end
| went with oak as it was a lot more affordable (for my student
| budget back then).
| g0gzs wrote:
| 121x20 cm board, 20mm thick was around 22 EUR + shipping. The
| shop I bought it from had 3 kinds of bamboo boards (normal,
| dark and some "figured" made up of dark and light stripes)
| but currently sell only the figured.
| fho wrote:
| I guess I was looking in the wrong places ... or the wrong
| construction. 20 mm thick sounds like it was only the core
| with more layers.
|
| In the end I went with some 150x4cm oak strips of varying
| width from the left-overs bin of a wood vendor. 5EUR the
| piece was a pretty good deal back then.
| g0gzs wrote:
| Yeah, I cut the board I ordered into 4 stripes, rotated
| them for 90 degrees and glued back together with
| purpleheart veneer in between, to get the core/neck part.
|
| I really wanna build one almost completely from bamboo
| (with various veneers to get some accents/lines in) but
| it's really hard to source boards now. Meh... but yeah,
| who would have thought that "tonegrass" would become a
| term someday haha.
| fho wrote:
| > core/neck
|
| I saw the picture above, looks very good!
|
| > tone grass
|
| I honestly believe that the key to building a good guitar
| is stiffness ... This will create a very high pitched
| instrument, as it does not lose the high frequencies in
| the wood. But that can be sorted out later vis EQing
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| One of the themes in this thread is reminding people that it's
| not actually bamboo, it's a bamboo composite--sort of like
| plywood. I doesn't work without petrochemical glues.
|
| I think it's fairer to say your build is 40%-ish bamboo
| composite. When we're calling it bamboo we're doing that
| industry's greenwashing marketing for them.
|
| Cool guitar!
| bombcar wrote:
| I've noticed more and more "glue" boards - even beyond the
| classic MDF or plywood - such as "Edge Glued" boards.
|
| Lots of the Ikea "wood" furniture is made this way, some
| apparently from relatively _small_ scraps.
| lazide wrote:
| Some of the terms being used are getting more and more
| 'artistic' too - I've seen a lot more use of the term
| 'manufactured wood' for instance, and like you're noting
| hybrid 'core is mdf, edges are real wood, top is veneer'
| type stuff that you have to dig to find out, and that is
| way more complicated than the 'traditional' mdf+veneer
| junk.
| bombcar wrote:
| The edge-glued boards at Menards are quite good - they're
| foot wide "shelves" if you will made from glued 4 inch
| wide pieces; they work and are roughly as strong as
| normal boards at a cheaper price - and come finished.
| handrous wrote:
| Edge-gluing's one technique you'll find in woodworking
| books, for making large surfaces. Desktops or table tops
| made out of a single piece of lumber are _wicked_
| expensive, or practically impossible once you reach a
| certain size, so you join a bunch of smaller boards to
| make it happen. The really cheap & easy version of this
| skips the gluing and just frames them so they're smushed
| together, leaving visible seams and gaps like a slightly-
| tighter version of an outdoor picnic table (I've even
| seen this look _imitated_ by solid table tops made from
| particle board and veneer, which... WTF? Those seams are
| crumb-traps! They make dealing cards a pain in the ass!
| Why would you go _out of your way_ to have them?), but
| the better kind involves gluing.
| drewzero1 wrote:
| I used one of their planed, unfinished edge-glued boards
| when I built my kid's bassinet. I was impressed by the
| uniform quality; it was almost as if it was a single
| board. Thanks Menards! (Full disclosure, my employer is
| technically a competitor, but we don't sell lumber.)
| labawi wrote:
| If the mentioned bamboo composite is 95% bamboo and 5% glue
| (going by comment from hwillis), isn't it fair to say it's
| 40%-ish bamboo?
|
| 5% glue is far from something like carbon composite, where
| most content is epoxy. Common wood surface treatment is
| probably more than 5%, yet we don't call it a wood composite.
|
| IMO, total surface sealant makes more of a material
| difference than 5% glue on the inside.
| soperj wrote:
| that would be 38% bamboo then.
| labawi wrote:
| It's within error bounds, so more proper to say 40%
| (ish), which is kind of the point.
| Animats wrote:
| There's a whole thing on YouTube of gluing together various
| wood-like materials and turning them on a lathe.[1] Liquid
| epoxy is often involved.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDQz4H7tz6Fwu5_5rg4W6pA
| mromanuk wrote:
| wow that picture of your guitar is awesome, do you have a blog
| other place where we can see your work?
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I always thought that hardness is most important in a
| fretboard, is bamboo hard enough for this? I have a Parker
| guitar with a glass composite fretboard (carbon glass they call
| it) and it's the best part of the guitar for playability.
| g0gzs wrote:
| The bamboo boards I ordered had a higher density than ebony
| (1100 kg/m^3 for bamboo vs. 955 kg/m^3 for ebony) and
| according to the suppliers site, they are roughly the same
| Janka hardness. That's why I went for it.
| devonkim wrote:
| I don't know if hardness is the best criteria. I have both
| rosewood and ebony fretboards on my basses and they feel
| differently and longevity seems only loosely affected. I'm
| not slamming down hard on the wood like what happens in
| flooring though and maybe other players are much rougher than
| myself.
| lazide wrote:
| Keep in mind these aren't what you would get if you cut down
| some bamboo and used them. They're usually processed,
| compressed, and a high % by weight of glue or epoxy. Many of
| them are harder and tougher than all but a tiny percent of
| exotic hard woods.
| Gravityloss wrote:
| Awesome looking guitar!
|
| I noticed you use the Planet Waves tuners. I love those as
| well, they're much more practical as they cut the strings for
| you. I wonder why they don't make them in more traditional
| colors, or why other manufacturers don't provide similar
| solutions. Everyone else makes just regular and locking tuners,
| not the locking-and-cutting tuners.
|
| For a performing amateur musician, the ability to change your
| string quicker and without having to carry extra tools is
| certainly beneficial, and people spend a lot of time fretting
| about much less important details in their guitars.
|
| I do like the current trend in youtube guitar videos talking
| more about playability, usability and reliability, and doing
| things like switching jacks or nuts, instead of endless pickup
| sound comparisons.
| soperj wrote:
| The original klusons tuners on the strats, you don't cut the
| strings at all.
|
| https://www.amazon.ca/Kluson-SD9105MN-Vintage-Tuning-
| Machine...
| g0gzs wrote:
| Yeah, I was looking into buying a new instrument, then
| youtube started suggesting all those build videos. Eventually
| found the project guitar web/forums and went for it. Probably
| my favorite side projects so far.
| crackercrews wrote:
| > The bamboo strands are placed in a massive industrial press and
| compressed with a pressure of 2,500 tons.
|
| I wondered if this number was a typo. Quick research shows that
| presses can produce tens of thousands of tons of pressure. [1]
|
| 1: https://thelibraryofmanufacturing.com/presses.html
| anon_cow1111 wrote:
| Seems about right; 1000psi assuming a 4x8 foot sheet, roughly.
| Bamboo is a -somewhat- soft pseudo-wood and can deform enough
| under that pressure to compress into the sheets they're
| describing.
|
| (for reference, I've operated a 10kton press at a previous job,
| which was roughly 30 feet high + underground hydraulic lines. I
| don't know how many presses of this scale are even left in the
| US)
| h2odragon wrote:
| apropos link:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Press_Program
| Cerium wrote:
| Perfect, I was going to link this as well as a response to
| the other comment "especially given the bigger your press
| is, the less people are going to need it for something."
|
| Ensuring that large presses exist is important to national
| security but not important to most business.
| crackercrews wrote:
| Does the size of a press increase linearly with the amount of
| pressure it can generate?
| anon_cow1111 wrote:
| _I think_ ; There could be other factors, but this is the
| main one
|
| I'd guess that, on average, the bulk weight of the press
| loosely determines its maximum pressure... Just because it
| needs a certain amount of steel to confine and direct that
| pressure without damaging itself.
|
| Over time, the engineering gets tighter and with less
| excess. You know that phrase, "anyone can make a bridge
| that stands up, but you need and engineer to make a bridge
| that just _barely_ stands up " It probably becomes an
| economic issue, especially given the bigger your press is,
| the less people are going to need it for something.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| This particular post is about making plywood sheets out of raw
| bamboo. But there is also work happening on mass timber
| applications of bamboo. For example a company called "Rizome"
| (https://rizomebamboo.com/) is working on LVL and LSL bamboo
| panels. One of their founders wrote a post about structural
| applications of bamboo last year
| (https://medium.com/rizome/bamboo-skyscrapers-eded5b234726).
| fblp wrote:
| Thanks for sharing!
| uglycoyote wrote:
| This was interesting in light of an interview I was just
| listening to yesterday, a CBC podcast [1] talking about the
| benefits of mass timber (glued wood) for large highrise building
| construction.
|
| There were two guests on, both sounded like environmentalists,
| with the first one (Michael Green) saying that mass timber was
|
| "currently the best tool we have to address climate impact and in
| the building materials for a large building"
|
| while the second guest (John Talberth) was arguing:
|
| "The idea that we can cut down our forests and turn them into two
| by fours and build our way to a stable climate is absurd, and
| it's just another one of these false narratives of big timber
| corporations are using to get us to buy more of their product and
| continue to subsidise their record profits",
|
| and Talberth advocated Bamboo, mentioning it multiple times as an
| alternative. It kind of went back and forth a bit with Mr Green
| saying
|
| "Bamboo, for instance, is not structurally a material that can
| actually satisfy the demand of three billion people that need a
| new home because it doesn't build large buildings"
|
| and Mr Talberth saying
|
| "Believe it or not, bamboo can actually be put together in the
| structurally with high structural integrity beams to make taller
| buildings"
|
| It kind of left me wondering who was right... though Mr Green (an
| architect) sounded like someone with actual experience making
| buildings, where as the Mr Talberth (an economist) sounded like
| he might have been doing a bit of ill-informed wishful thinking
| about Bamboo.
|
| Seeing the process here gave me a bit more perspective on the
| discussion. Given the labour involved and the fact that you are
| working with 20mm x 5mm cross-sections of bamboo, I can see how
| it would be extremely expensive to build a large building out of
| bamboo, and the $300 euro price tag on a sheet of plywood at the
| bottom of the page added more confirmation that it's not going to
| be a practical replacement for large-scale building.
|
| [1] https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-
| oct-20-2...
| clomond wrote:
| When thinking about "carbon stores" - it is significantly more
| preferable to turn managed forests into manufactured wood
| products for buildings and furniture (where the CO2 gets
| functionally stored and then possibly tossed in a landfill far
| in the future) to turning those forests into wood pellets to be
| burned as biomass.
|
| Managed forestry has the ability to, relatively trivially and
| particularly when compared to other "carbon sequestration
| alternatives" lock in decent magnitudes of carbon as we figure
| out our energy system.
|
| Particularly helps when comparing to other building material
| options (bricks, concrete, steel all very energy intensive and
| not decarbonized yet).
| gizmo686 wrote:
| We are not cutting down forests to make buildings. We get
| plenty of lumber to do that from sustainable tree farms. We are
| cutting down forests to get land (mostly to use for non-tree
| agriculture)
| hcurtiss wrote:
| John Talberth runs the Center for Sustainable Economy, an
| environmental advocacy organization in Portland, Oregon. He is
| an old general from the PNW "timber wars" of the 1990s,
| directly involved in pursuing the spotted owl injunctions. He
| has long been opposed to intensive management of native conifer
| forests. It's amusing to me to hear him advocating for harvest
| in somebody else's back yard. I suppose that's been the subtext
| the entire time, with so much harvest volume having migrated to
| the US southeast following the spotted owl injunctions.
| giarc wrote:
| At the bottom of the OP link is the price for a 4x8' sheet of
| bamboo plywood. It's listed for 295 euroos or $342USD. I'm not
| sure there is a 'regular' wood sheet that is even close to that
| cost. It's truly a specialized product and unless there are
| more economical bamboo sheet goods, no one would ever build
| with this.
| kabes wrote:
| I started searching for bamboo exterior sidings because of
| this post and it seems to be about the same price like
| hardwood sidings. Bit cheaper than padauk.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-10-22 23:02 UTC)