[HN Gopher] Show HN: Combining UTC and local times (time zones) ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Show HN: Combining UTC and local times (time zones) in one new
       clock
        
       Author : hhebbo
       Score  : 81 points
       Date   : 2021-10-20 09:20 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (thehtime.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (thehtime.com)
        
       | seanalltogether wrote:
       | I work in the UK for a company based out of Denver. I know that I
       | need to subtract 7 hours from my time to figure out the local
       | time there, and they need to do it in reverse. But with this H
       | time I would have to subtract 7 letters from my time to
       | understand what the relative local time in Denver is. Sure it's
       | P:30 for both of us, but I don't know what P minus seven is to
       | know if that's when noon is and they may or may not be at lunch.
        
         | joshspankit wrote:
         | I suspect the only solid way to do this is to have the ntime
         | clock visible to all office employees.
         | 
         | "Oh, it's O:56, I better prep for the meeting at P:30"
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | That'd work
        
         | globular-toast wrote:
         | That could be solved with software that displayed the local
         | time for each participant you add to an event. But then I guess
         | I don't see the point of this any more.
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | True, but not for all events. For example, webinars or global
           | events like SpaceX's launch or the Olympics games. If a game
           | starts at 2pm Tokyo time, I have no direct clue what that
           | could be in my local time. If the game starts at N:00, then I
           | know in my mind what that is.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Yes, I'm hearing this more now about the letters. It obviously
         | seems that the letters make it harder to comprehend which I
         | understand. Do you think replacing letters with numbers would
         | help? Then you'd see both local and global (UTC) times in
         | numbers, that would probably make it easier to use.
        
         | bellyfullofbac wrote:
         | I guess the idea is you'd have to know "Our Denver office hours
         | are between H and W, and they have lunch at hour P.", so you
         | don't schedule meetings at P:00.
         | 
         | But well, I don't think it really works. Add another timezone
         | to the mix and you're going to get a jumble of letters you
         | won't remember, you'll have to write it down, and at that point
         | you might as well use a diagram like this:
         | https://everytimezone.com (which I think can also be made
         | analog, just add a few lines for "Lunchtime in London",
         | "Lunchtime in Denver", etc.
        
       | jachee wrote:
       | I'm pretty sure that having "Accept and close" or "contact us to
       | manage your cookie settings" as the only cookie options isn't
       | compliant.
       | 
       | It's also an annoying dark pattern.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Sorry for that, I'll work on improving the cookie settings and
         | experience.
        
           | jachee wrote:
           | Just add a "Decline all" button right next to the accept
           | button.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | Got it, will do in the next couple of days. Thanks for the
             | suggestion.
        
       | slownews45 wrote:
       | I love this - great idea!
       | 
       | Portrait mode on chrome / desktop is broken pretty badly.
       | 
       | Patent pending - what does this mean?
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks! Yes I got the feedback on the responsiveness. I'll work
         | on fixing thats.
        
       | dmd wrote:
       | Here we go again.
       | 
       | https://qntm.org/abolish
       | 
       | https://qntm.org/calendar
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | The idea is not to abolish time zones, the idea is to add UTC
         | to the clock so we have local times (time zones) and a global
         | time (UTC) in one clock. With added features like "Meeting
         | Time", we can defiantly find the best time to call and making
         | sure it's not 4am in the other place.
        
       | new_realist wrote:
       | We need human time: two dimensional time zones around major
       | metropolitan areas, where time skews automatically a few minutes
       | every morning at 3 a.m. to ensure that sunrise is the same time
       | each day. No daylight savings jumps, and computers can handle
       | cross-zone scheduling. This is easy to do now that everyone has a
       | smart phone or smart watch.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | I like the explanation! I believe the 2 dimensional time zones
         | are: local time zone, and global time zone. The local time
         | zones already exist, the global time zone also already exists
         | and it's UTC. hTime puts both in one clock so the reading of
         | time is the same everywhere and still maps this to our local
         | times for our daily life locally.
         | 
         | How would you implement your idea? Do you have any sketches or
         | notes about that?
        
         | joshspankit wrote:
         | While we're at it, can we base weeks and months on the lunar
         | cycle so that we have 13 months of exactly 4 weeks each?
         | 
         | Edit: Not sarcasm or a bit. Genuinely. I'd love to be more in
         | sync with nature by having our time reference based on sunrise
         | and the lunar cycles
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | Not a bad idea at all. I'm sure we can tackle that. I
           | actually played around with another concept as well which is
           | using the Sun's location as our reference instead of UTC.
           | This then gives our solar system a unified time, not only
           | Earth. It's an incomplete concept still. I have it here in
           | this blog post https://medium.com/adventures-in-consumer-
           | technology/introdu... Would love to hear what you think.
        
       | rini17 wrote:
       | We need a standard for serializing both time and place in order
       | to specify local time. It is already done ad-hoc using
       | "continent/city" timezone database. Current three-letter
       | timezones have the disadvantage that a place can change a
       | timezone.
        
         | mark-r wrote:
         | Timezones can change when specified by continent/city too. The
         | bigger problem with three-letter zone names is that they're not
         | unique. I found 3 different definitions of CST for example.
        
           | rini17 wrote:
           | When timezone for a city changes and you store time with
           | timezone name/offset, you won't know. If you store time with
           | location, you are one update of tzdata away from
           | automatically solving the problem.
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | another problem with the 3-letter system is that it's not
           | always 3 letters. With daylight saving CST become CEST which
           | is then +-1 different depending where you are. With hTime and
           | bringing UTC into the clock, I'm aiming at eliminating the
           | need to think of the 3-letter system altogether. If I know
           | what time globally is (UTC) and what it means in my local
           | time, then I won't need to know what CET or PT is anymore.
           | hTime gets the job done using "one clock". The idea of UTC
           | here is that it's a rotating UTC. So hTime utilizes where you
           | are on Earth and uses that to rotate UTC accordingly so you
           | get the same reading of time everywhere. That's a global time
           | concept, which what UTC is about.
        
             | mark-r wrote:
             | In the U.S. CST becomes CDT in the summer. Which country
             | changes it to CEST?
        
               | hhebbo wrote:
               | ah sorry, that's CET (not CST) to CEST. That's Europe
               | Central Time to Europe Central Summer Time. I believe we
               | better off using UTC only.
        
       | asguy wrote:
       | This clock smells like Esperanto.
        
       | ubertaco wrote:
       | The thing about the hour -- the part that's being abstracted away
       | here -- is that (in most cases) it carries semantic meaning about
       | daylight and thus about "waking-world" and circadian-rhythm
       | expectations.
       | 
       | Yes, with timezones and UTC-offsets I have to keep in mind that
       | 8:00 in my timezone might be 3:00 in someone else's timezone, but
       | once I do the simple math of adding the offsets and doing any
       | necessary modulos, I now know that the meeting time I've chosen
       | almost certainly isn't a reasonable meeting time for that person.
       | 
       | I know from experience that for the overwhelming majority of
       | people in the world, 3:00 is still probably sleeping time,
       | regardless of what timezone that 3:00 is in. 3:00 in UTC is
       | sleeping time in London, 3:00 in UTC-5 is sleeping time in
       | Atlanta, 3:00 in UTC+9 is sleeping time in Tokyo -- in any case,
       | 3:00 is sleeping time.
       | 
       | Attempts to have "one world timezone", even leaving out the
       | existence of fractional-hour timezone offsets, will always throw
       | away that semantic detail about human schedules.
       | 
       | For example, let's say you just enforce that _everyone_ uses UTC.
       | Congratulations, you no longer have to do offset math.
       | 
       | Except that you have no idea if 10:00 is a reasonable meeting
       | time for anyone within a few timezones of you (which remember, no
       | longer exist, so you can't really use them as references). You no
       | longer have to memorize each participant's offsets, but now you
       | have to memorize the daylight hours for each participant instead,
       | and that's arguably harder (X's daylight hours are 8:00->16:00,
       | but Y's daylight hours are 14:00->2:00, but then Z's daylight
       | hours are 12:30->20:30).
       | 
       | Yes, there are companies with overseas contracts who dedicate
       | some staff to working the same hours as their overseas
       | counterparts. Do we _really_ want that to become the global norm,
       | though? Because if not, then  "daylight hours" remains an
       | important concept, and it's already baked semantically into the
       | system of timezones we have today, more simply than the
       | alternative.
       | 
       | So if we toss out the piece of information that conveys the
       | detail about "daylight hours" (which is what this clock does with
       | its letters-instead-of-hours), then we're losing that
       | information, and making it _much_ easier to trample all over
       | _somebody 's_ reasonable working schedule.
        
         | nixpulvis wrote:
         | Nobody is talking about removing local times, otherwise this
         | tool wouldn't even need to exist.
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | Correct
        
         | zamadatix wrote:
         | What's the obsession with knowing which daylight hour offset it
         | would be for someone else? Wouldn't you rather know a range of
         | hours that works for them rather than a range of hours you
         | assume they'll be awake (and hopefully not busy)?
         | 
         | If the position of the sun is truly important to your use case
         | then knowing a location is "UTC+9" as far as sunshine hours go
         | is still able to tell you that without requiring you encode
         | that information into the time value itself.
        
           | fao_ wrote:
           | > What's the obsession with knowing which daylight hour
           | offset it would be for someone else?
           | 
           | This is already answered in the post you are replying to, so
           | I assume this is you demanding an external source:
           | 
           | https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Circadian_rhythm
           | 
           | https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Sleep
        
             | kaishiro wrote:
             | I don't believe parent was "demanding" anything. Simply
             | asking an increasingly relevant question as work moves from
             | office to home and the remote work pool expands.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks for the detailed explanation. But as nixpulvis said, the
         | clock doesn't remove the local times and replace them with UTC.
         | That's not the idea. The clock actually brings the best of both
         | local times and UTC together in one clock. Local times are here
         | to stay with UTC. What the clock is that it maps them together
         | by rotating the UTC layer (in letters) so the reading of time
         | is the same everywhere for everyone.
         | 
         | I hear you on waking time. For that I've build the "Meeting
         | Time" feature that makes sure to find the best time for a
         | meeting for different locations where it's a good time to meet
         | for everyone. For example, the best time to have a meeting
         | between San Francisco, New York, London, and Berlin is between
         | P-R baring in mind that the clock makes sure that the meeting
         | is between 8am and 19 (7pm) for everyone. And this is all
         | configurable :) You can also share the link of the meeting time
         | as this one
         | https://thehtime.com/intersect?locations=USA+-+San+Francisco...
         | 
         | Happy to hear your thoughts on this feature.
        
       | martinflack wrote:
       | Skip I and O on the letters, and go up to Z. Then the letter
       | component will not be mistaken for a numeric digit.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Done! Thanks for the feedback! This makes sense, I've received
         | this feedback several times today. Would you like to give hTime
         | a go and test it for some days? I'd love to hear some more
         | feedback.
        
       | cormullion wrote:
       | This page (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-
       | institution/sandf...) has a picture of a mechanical pocket watch
       | from the 1880s belonging to Sandford Fleming with the letters
       | shown against each hour.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Cool, Thanks for sharing. I didn't know about Fleming's watch.
         | The problem he was trying to solve back then is represented
         | again today by distributed and remote work. Companies and teams
         | have employees, customers, and parterres all over the world,
         | and the 3-letter time zone system started to be more confusing,
         | especially with daylight saving. UTC is a universal time, but
         | unfortunately it's rare to see it used on a daily basis. The
         | introduction of hTime is to simply bring UTC back as the
         | central time globally and make it easier to use by combining it
         | with local times. So we've got local and global times in one
         | clock.
        
         | doovd wrote:
         | No J or V, Interesting those were sacrificed.
        
           | gerikson wrote:
           | Probably for the same reasons mentioned here:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28929226
           | 
           | They're easily confused with I and U, respectively.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | Good feedback, probably I should be doing the same on hTime
             | as well. I'll test more and see what's best for UX.
        
           | joshspankit wrote:
           | Maybe he just didn't like the look of them, and wanted the
           | day to end at Z.
           | 
           | You never know when a standard is based on a single person's
           | subjective choice. I think it's fascinating personally.
        
       | false wrote:
       | Would be nice if "BrandonText-Light" font supported `font-
       | variant: tabular-nums` -- this would prevent digital clock
       | display from slight horizontal jumps on each second change.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback, I'll check that and try to fix soon. Thanks!
        
       | mbfg wrote:
       | i have no idea what's going on.
        
       | maltalex wrote:
       | Reminds me of Swatch's "Internet Time" from the 90's -
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time
       | 
       | Also, obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/927/
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | The issue with Internet Time is that it used a completely new
         | approach of time. It's hard to know what 965 means in our local
         | time. The idea here is to simply keep the 24 hours, 60 minutes,
         | 60 seconds and add UTC to that making the clock showing both
         | local and global times. And then rotate UTC according to the
         | location which then unifies the reading of time everywhere.
         | Something Internet Time didn't do.
        
       | nixpulvis wrote:
       | How is this any better than just using UTC written as 14:15Z?
       | 
       | It is a bit nice to hide the number that is not correct, but it
       | makes the lookup a little harder than an offset too. Not to
       | mention the worst part which is that hour hour goes by but there
       | is no numerical increment to see.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback, thanks! Probably the letters makes it harder to
         | comprehend. Actually there is no difference that writing
         | 14:15Z. The main concept is to map UTC, or Zulu, to our local
         | times in one clock where UTC rotates according to your location
         | on Earth. So all users when they look at the clock at the same
         | time no matter where they are, they'd see the same time. It's a
         | global clock idea.
         | 
         | I can simply change the letters to numbers, do you think that'd
         | help?
        
           | joshspankit wrote:
           | If changing the letters to numbers, you're coming down to
           | advocating that everyone use UTC for coordination which makes
           | hTime just a handy tool and not a solution
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | True. I'm actually fine with that. Main thing is we find a
             | good way to get rid of time zone math! :)
        
           | nixpulvis wrote:
           | I was actually arguing that the letter makes it _easier_ to
           | comprehend in a sense, because it forces you to do the
           | mapping, instead of assuming the same zone.
           | 
           | That being said, the interface should really put the location
           | closer to the letter ring, because it's somewhat easy to
           | forget you're looking at a localized mapping and what the
           | letters mean, since they are in another UI element.
           | 
           | "So all users when they look at the clock at the same time no
           | matter where they are, they'd see the same time."
           | 
           | This is true of any clock (unless fancy optics are involved,
           | or we get too deep into physics), two people looking at the
           | same wall clock will see the same time. The problem is that
           | they might want to interpret what they see in a different
           | way. Both UTC and your htime thing are a way to solve that
           | problem.
           | 
           | Leading with a letter helps people not start reading as a
           | local time, whereas with 8061 formatted times you only notice
           | it's not in your own locale at the very end of the time.
           | Depending on your use one might be better than the other.
           | Unfortunately time requires that I remember one additional
           | piece of information, namely UTC: X=24, before I can index
           | into the alphabet and calculate the difference myself,
           | whereas UTC simply requires I add the offset to the time and
           | move on with my life.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | Got what you mean, I'll work on the letter ring.
             | 
             | What I actually meant by "all users when they look at the
             | same clock at the same time" is all users in different
             | locations would see that time is the same in letters. For
             | example everybody worldwide would see that time now is
             | R:24.
             | 
             | I agree on the last piece as well. I think using it for
             | some time will prove what would be better for the UTC ring,
             | letters or numbers. Each has its own benefits and flaws as
             | you mentioned.
             | 
             | Would you like to give hTime a go and test it for some
             | days? I'd love to hear some more valuable feedback.
        
               | nixpulvis wrote:
               | I actually had a really simple idea that would have
               | helped me a lot while discovering the tool. I _hate_ most
               | animations, however smoothly rotating the ring would do
               | wonders for people understanding what 's going on here.
               | You just need to decide which way to rotate ;)
               | 
               | > Would you like to give hTime a go and test it for some
               | days?
               | 
               | Perhaps... but to be perfectly honest, I haven't yet
               | decided if I love or hate this idea yet.
               | 
               | To give you an idea about how I'm thinking of this, first
               | and foremost hTime is a time _format_ , meaning it's just
               | some mapping of letters to a local time's hour. The most
               | interesting part to me is that, since I read left to
               | right, I also see the locale information first as opposed
               | to last. You can rightfully argue that the locale is
               | needed to interpret the rest of the time, so this is the
               | correct way to format world times. On the other hand,
               | world times are the same as local times for everyone
               | within earshot of me, so I would never bother prefixing
               | things locally.
               | 
               | Secondly, it's a _tool_ for helping people with world
               | clocks and scheduling.
               | 
               | My concern is that there are better solutions to the
               | first thing, despite any improvements made to the second.
               | For example, would it not be better to simply prefix the
               | timezone information directly? For example, it's
               | currently Z22:36. We do use more characters, especially
               | if we want to be able to extend this to local times too
               | (e.g. +5-03:36). I might be tempted to start trying to
               | lay this out so the math works out for (+5) adding
               | directly to the hour as 5+03:36 = Z22:36, but now I
               | realize a larger problem with all this... dates.
               | 
               | Placing the offset in the middle of the full time string
               | 2021-10-20 together with 22:36 requires thought. I'm
               | tempted to like it, because the timezone offset is
               | obviously much _more_ related to the time than the date,
               | but moving it closer to the date really couldn 't hurt,
               | could it?
               | 
               | Take either hTime, or my example:
               | 
               | - 2021-10-20+5-03:36
               | 
               | - 2021-10-20Z22:36
               | 
               | - 2021-10-20Q:36
               | 
               | We just replace the 'T' in ISO-8601 with the 'Z' part or
               | with nothing before an hTime. Now I get to complain that
               | 'Z' looks way too much like 2... Meanwhile
               | https://thehtime.com/ hasn't loaded and I can't remember
               | the mapping for the current time, so I don't think I've
               | written my example consistently.
               | 
               | I think that's the part of hTime I like the least. I have
               | no hope of decoding it without knowing what it is.
               | Meanwhile an 8601 datetime stamp can be somewhat
               | inferred.
               | 
               | Anyway, I'm just bored right now over here thinking on
               | paper. Always glad to hear that my feedback is somewhat
               | useful. Thanks.
        
       | hahamrfunnyguy wrote:
       | I live in the US. Most companies and organizations here use 12
       | hour time, so I use it too. The work hour selection is using 24
       | hour time. It would be a nice UX improvement to present the time
       | using the user's current locale settings.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback! I'll add this as an option, so users can use
         | either 24h or 12h. Thanks!
        
         | sneak wrote:
         | It is all of our duty when working in/with America/ns to use
         | 24h time as often as possible. Same goes for metric.
         | 
         | Americans call it "military time" because the US military uses
         | it. I like to remind people that the entire rest of the world
         | uses it, too, and that 12h time should just be called "American
         | civilian time".
        
           | lupin_sansei wrote:
           | This isn't correct. I've lived in UK, Australia, and Japan
           | and all those places use 12 hour time.
        
             | iggldiggl wrote:
             | Although in the UK at least, railways universally use the
             | 24-hour clock, thereby regularly exposing a larger fraction
             | of the population to it (in Australia a quick search seems
             | to indicate that only NSW uses 24 hour time for its
             | timetables?).
        
           | reaperducer wrote:
           | _It is all of our duty when working in /with America/ns to
           | use 24h time as often as possible._
           | 
           | It is all of our duties to learn about, respect, and embrace
           | cultures that are different from our own.
           | 
           | Just as I'm not going to take a job in France and tell the
           | bakery how to make baguettes, I don't expect someone from
           | France to come to the United States and be critical of the
           | clock on the wall.
           | 
           | The technosphere is too often all about making the world
           | standardized, bureaucratic, and homogenized. In other words:
           | boring. I'd rather live in a world with many different
           | cultures that I can learn about and explore. Who cares if it
           | doesn't fit neatly into something that works for a computer?
           | They're supposed to work for us, not the other way around.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | reaperducer wrote:
           | _I like to remind people that the entire rest of the world
           | uses it_
           | 
           | So the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland, most of
           | Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh,
           | Malaysia, Malta, Egypt, Mexico, Nepal, and the Philippines
           | aren't part of the world.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock
        
             | sneak wrote:
             | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_t
             | h...
             | 
             | > _Both the 24-hour and 12-hour notations are used in the
             | United Kingdom_
             | 
             | > _The 24-hour notation is used in timetables and on most
             | digital clocks, but 12-hour notation is still widely used
             | in ordinary life. The 24-hour notation is used more often
             | than in North America - transport timetables use it
             | exclusively, as do most legal documents - but not as
             | commonly as in much of the non-English-speaking world._
        
       | garblegarble wrote:
       | It's a little unfortunate that they keep the minute part numeric,
       | since this has the same problem as displaying UTC times for India
       | - India Standard Time has a 30-minute offset in addition to an
       | hour offset, so "K:43" in hTime is "16:13" in Delhi.
        
         | gerikson wrote:
         | Myanmar has a +30m delta too, as has Australian Central Time
         | and Newfoundland.
         | 
         | As mentioned elsewhere Nepal has a +45m delta.
         | 
         |  _edit_ OK I crunched the numbers
         | 
         | Country / Pop. / Timezone
         | 
         | * Afghanistan 32.9M UTC+04:30
         | 
         | * Central Australia (Northern Territory and South Australia)
         | 246.5k + 1.771M UTC+09:30
         | 
         | * India 1.353B UTC+05:30
         | 
         | * Iran 83.1M UTC+03:30
         | 
         | * Myanmar 55.6M UTC+06:30
         | 
         | * Nepal 28M UTC+05:45
         | 
         | * Newfoundland and Labrador 520k UTC-03:30
         | 
         | This comes out to around 1.556B people or around 20% of the
         | world's population.
        
           | Fnoord wrote:
           | Can this be used for profiling on the internet? Ie. if
           | someone's clock is 15 minutes before the standard they are
           | residing in Nepal?
        
             | garblegarble wrote:
             | Yes it can and is used for profiling, but it's even easier
             | than that - you can just call
             | "Intl.DateTimeFormat().resolvedOptions().timeZone" on
             | modern browsers or use Date's getTimezoneOffset
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | You're right. Firstly, I don't really understand why those
           | countries decided to go with a 30-minute offset. It's adding
           | even more confusion to the whole time zone and daylight
           | saving thing. hTime utilizes UTC, hence the 30 minutes
           | difference. However, that's something to think more about and
           | see how to fix it properly. Thanks for the feedback.
           | 
           | Would you give hTime a go and test it for some days? I'd love
           | to hear more feedback.
        
             | HideousKojima wrote:
             | Nepal does a 45 minute offset because it's centered around
             | a holy mountain: http://bossnepal.com/sacred-mountain-
             | gauri-shankar/
        
             | ComputerGuru wrote:
             | This just shows you didn't even do the basic background
             | research before jumping head-first into this idea (not to
             | mention blaming the countries). Why would someone try your
             | app knowing full-well it is fundamentally broken?
        
               | hhebbo wrote:
               | I believe I did the research. It's written in a blog post
               | I published about time zones and the clock's concept
               | https://medium.com/adventures-in-consumer-
               | technology/introdu.... That's what I'm trying to solve.
               | 
               | I appreciate your candor feedback. When users worldwide
               | use the clock, they'll see both global and local times in
               | one place, the global time will be "without" the minutes
               | offset, and the local time will be "with" the minutes
               | offset, so the mapping does actually work and I don't
               | think it's broken in that sense. And as any project,
               | there's always room for improvement.
        
               | gregmac wrote:
               | I have to say, I don't understand what you mean by this.
               | 
               | When I view
               | https://thehtime.com/location?name=Canada+-+St.+John%27s
               | currently I see:                   Time Locally: 14:52
               | Time worldwide: R:52
               | 
               | The _actual_ local time there is 14:22.
               | 
               | If I (in a timezone with an even number of hours offset)
               | schedule a meeting at S:30, what time is someone from St
               | John's going to show up? (I think half an hour late?)
        
               | hhebbo wrote:
               | What I mean is for example: India as you mentioned above
               | in the list. On hTime
               | https://thehtime.com/location?name=India+-+Mumbai the
               | local time is with a 30-minute offset, and the global
               | isn't following UTC.
               | 
               | For St. John's offset, I actually wasn't aware of it,
               | from the data I have it seemed to me that Canada in
               | general doesn't have that. But worry not, I just fixed it
               | on the website and added it to the algorithm offsets,
               | please check again and let met know what you think. Here
               | is the link to St. John - Canada
               | https://thehtime.com/location?name=Canada+-+St.+John%27s
               | 
               | If a meeting is scheduled using hTime, then it'll be in
               | hTime with half an hour offset from the local hour in St.
               | John.
        
               | joshspankit wrote:
               | When OP talked about it being broken, I suspect they
               | meant something like "With enough knowledge of the
               | complexities of international timezones, as well as the
               | psychology internal to administrators and the public, it
               | is clear that this specific approach cannot solve the
               | problem for everyone world wide without an amount of
               | amount of public shift that is borderline impossible.
               | (For reference, see the XKCD comic about creating a
               | unifying standard)".
        
               | hhebbo wrote:
               | It's definitely challenging to influence people's
               | behavior especially when it comes to something so
               | essential like time and the clock. However, I believe
               | dealing with time zones when working with distributed
               | teams is actually more challenging. I can't count the
               | times people missed a meeting or a deadline by an hour
               | because they miscalculated time zones, hence the work on
               | hTime.
        
               | joshspankit wrote:
               | The mapping is clear, and I think many of us get it that
               | anyone in any time zone can look at the mapped clock and
               | see the same time.
               | 
               | As well, I personally think that building on UTC but
               | making it clearly recognizable is a clever approach
               | (avoiding, as you say; "Meet me at to 2PM UTC." being
               | quickly internalized in someone's brain as 2PM local
               | time), but there are too many (known) edge cases that
               | this cannot solve (such as arbitrarily-numbered minute
               | offsets, and possibility of confusing dates when setting
               | the time)
        
               | hhebbo wrote:
               | Thanks for the clarification, makes sense.
        
               | reidjs wrote:
               | Well, it works for my team, so I don't see a problem. Not
               | everything needs to work for everybody in every
               | circumstance to be helpful.
        
       | gwbas1c wrote:
       | Cool concept! The thing that I like about using A-X is that it
       | helps avoid accidentally confusing "10" between local and UTC.
       | IE, the longer I would use this, the more I get used to knowing
       | that 8:00 is N:00 in my local time.
       | 
       | IMO: Something in the html needs cleanup. Depending on my window
       | size, elements are always overlapping. (I'm on Chrome on Windows,
       | with uBlock.)
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback! Yes, that's exactly the concept of letters and
         | numbers for local and global times :) I'll work more on the
         | responsiveness of the interface. There is something to improve
         | every day.
         | 
         | Do you work across time zones? If yes, would you like to give
         | hTime a go and test it for some days? I'd love to hear more
         | feedback from daily usage of the clock.
        
       | pmarreck wrote:
       | I like the idea of galactic/orbital time, to coordinate between
       | planets
       | 
       | You just opened up Pandora's Box though... there are so many
       | corner cases
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks, orbital time isn't final yet. Those are the initial
         | thoughts to solve it. The approach of using the Sun's location
         | might work. Yes, many corner cases, but somebody has got to
         | solve them, this is the start.
        
       | keyle wrote:
       | https://xkcd.com/927/
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Well somebody has to do it, otherwise we're stuck
        
       | mro_name wrote:
       | nice idea!
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks! Any feedback whether you'd use it or not?
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | Semaphor wrote:
       | No comments about the cookie banner that tells you to "contact
       | them" to change your preferences?
       | 
       | Especially as the only cookie the site sets, is the one that you
       | accepted cookies :D
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | :D I'll fix the cookie. Thanks for the feedback!
        
       | jedimastert wrote:
       | Tom Scott's rant on time-zones is as relevant as always
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5wpm-gesOY
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | yup, always
        
       | brainwipe wrote:
       | I like the idea but for the teams I have worked with, the trouble
       | they have with timing isn't going to be solved by any clock!
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | I'd love to hear more about that. What is the trouble? Maybe I
         | can work on a solution to help.
        
       | Waterluvian wrote:
       | Newfoundland is 30 mins different.
       | 
       | Really this is just an offset in letters. Make the offset in
       | numbers. I love the inner clock face idea.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | I just fixed the 30-min offset for Newfoundland, here is the
         | fixed time
         | https://thehtime.com/location?name=Canada+-+St.+John%27s
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback! I'm considering that as well, to try the inner
         | clock with numbers. The main idea of letters is to help
         | distinguishing global time (UTC) from local time. So let's meet
         | at 11:00 is local, and let's meet at M:00 is global. I'll try
         | the numbers and test what would be simpler to use for users.
         | Thanks!
        
       | jasode wrote:
       | One issue with your graphical clock being modulus-24 is that it
       | interferes with everyone's lifetime exposure to analog clocks
       | that are modulus-12. Losing that spatial awareness of where the
       | hour hand "typically" sits makes it harder to read.
       | 
       | I think simple text list of different locations and their current
       | local time is much easier to mentally parse.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | I hear you. The awareness of the where the hand stands still
         | works for local hours though. When working across-time-zones
         | and scheduling client meetings, the list of local clocks and
         | emails to coordinate become a hassle quickly in my experience.
        
           | jasode wrote:
           | _> The awareness of the where the hand stands still works for
           | local hours though._
           | 
           | It doesn't work for local because there's a fundamental
           | difference of geometry between 12 vs 24 subdivisions of a 360
           | degree circle.
           | 
           | Look at the screenshot to see that the hour-hand pointing to
           | "8" are different angles (240 degrees vs 300 degrees):
           | 
           | https://imgur.com/a/8DZCeqe
           | 
           | In your clock, it "looks like 10am" instead of 8am because of
           | the accumulated lifetime repetition of reading traditional
           | 12-hour clocks.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | Ah got what you mean. Yes you're right. I'll think about a
             | solution for that. Maybe some setting for the user to
             | choose either a 24-hour or 12-hour system. It'll be
             | challenging with the letter though, but I'll give it a
             | shot.
        
         | zokier wrote:
         | 24 hour clock faces are not completely novel idea, they have
         | been around for a long time already. Never particularly
         | popular, they have been used more in some niches. Soviets in
         | particular seemed to be fond of them, you can find many Raketas
         | etc with 24h faces.
         | 
         | Random modern example of 24h watch
         | 
         | https://www.oris.ch/en/watch/blue-eagles-limited-edition/01-...
        
       | nelox wrote:
       | Reminds me of the time our firm scheduled a training session for
       | cross-cultural awareness, at 1 a.m. local time, on a Saturday. I
       | kid you not.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Your firm should use hTime then for scheduling :D They could
         | use the "Meeting Time" https://thehtime.com/intersect feature
         | to make sure it's a good time for everyone.
        
       | midasuni wrote:
       | Nepal is broken (it's 45 minute offset from norm)
       | 
       | I create a meeting Friday at B:00.
       | 
       | Is that Thursday or Friday in Sydney? In anchorage?
       | 
       | T:00 on Thursday would be in about 7 hours from now for someone
       | in Auckland, but in 31 hours for someone in San Francisco.
       | 
       | What about a meeting that occurs at 10am local time in New York
       | every day? What happens when the clock changes. The reason to
       | schedule meetings to a timezone is to account for clock changes,
       | otherwise we could just use UTC and be far less confusing that's
       | this.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Well, the clock is UTC. That's the whole concept :) The clock
         | simply combines our local times with UTC in one clock face. To
         | make UTC work for all time zones, it also rotates UTC according
         | to your location on Earth. This means that the reading of time
         | is the same everywhere at any time using the rotated UTC. The
         | clock's algorithm also automatically takes care of all time
         | changes, keeping the reading of time consistent globally.
         | 
         | We actually can't just use UTC as is and eliminate time zones
         | completely. If we do so, people in some places would go to work
         | at 2am, in other places at 8pm. That's even more confusing. So
         | the clock of hTime aims to use the best of both local and
         | global times worlds in one clock interface.
         | 
         | As for day-changing, I hear you. Again this is UTC, so what the
         | day of UTC is is the day of hTime. Something to work more on
         | indeed.
        
           | Kwpolska wrote:
           | > We actually can't just use UTC as is and eliminate time
           | zones completely. If we do so, people in some places would go
           | to work at 2am, in other places at 8pm. That's even more
           | confusing.
           | 
           | If we adopt hTime, people in some places would go to work at
           | C:00, and in other places at U:00. What's the difference,
           | really? If you say that people in London think that 8-4 UTC
           | (now 9-5 BST) are working hours and would be confused their
           | NYC colleagues would say they are working 4-12 (now 9-5 EDT),
           | then you get the same "confusion" if London thinks I-Q and
           | NYC says N-V.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | You're right :) The concept is to use both together. And
             | that's what the clock is doing. It keeps local times, and
             | adds UTC as a global time, then maps them together with
             | location-offset-based rotating.
        
           | Aloha wrote:
           | Why cant we?
           | 
           | The number on the clock is by convention, I used to go to
           | work at 2am, I worked nights.
           | 
           | If everyone just published hours in UTC, and availability in
           | UTC, this would work fine. You'd know that normal working
           | hours for your area are you know, 1200-2000 UTC.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | Makes sense, that would also work. However, there is
             | another case where the question comes: what is the best
             | time for a meeting between San Francisco, New York, London,
             | and Berlin for example? Here it becomes a bit challenging
             | as we lost the meaning of local hours for those locations.
             | 2am in most cases means sleeping time, not for everyone,
             | but mostly. With only UTC we'd lose the semantics meaning
             | of local hours. Hence combining local hours and UTC in one
             | clock face.
        
             | nixpulvis wrote:
             | I'll just leave my common advice here.
             | 
             | - Store all dates and times as UTC when dealing machine
             | interfaces
             | 
             | - Communicate to others as clearly as concisely as
             | possible.
             | 
             | So, I store everything in Postgres as ISO-8601 UTC times,
             | while I tell my friends I'll be there at 8 (even though my
             | watch will say 20:00).
        
         | valray wrote:
         | Intentions are good, but I found this system confusing and not
         | useful for me.
         | 
         | I use to use Everytimezone, but find Dateful's dual timezone
         | display more useful for my needs.
         | 
         | https://dateful.com/time-zone-converter
         | 
         | Edit: Added positive remark about good intentions.
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it! May I ask why do
           | you find it confusing? I'd love to improve it.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | For the info, I just fixed the time zone offset for Nepal in
         | the algorithm. Check it out here
         | https://thehtime.com/location?name=Nepal+-+Kathmandu and please
         | let me know if it works.
        
         | jmcs wrote:
         | It's like UTC but worse. If people need to learn something new,
         | it's better to teach the basics of ISO 8601 to everyone.
        
       | dansimau wrote:
       | A tool that has been most useful for me when I am scheduling
       | meetings cross-timezone: http://timesched.pocoo.org/
       | 
       | IMHO when scheduling, you need to actually understand local time
       | for all your attendees, so you can factor in things like when
       | they are awake/asleep, when they might be driving to work,
       | picking up their kids, etc.
       | 
       | But when simply reading/grokking times -- i.e. in internal
       | documents or web pages shared across timezones -- I usually just
       | want to see the timestamp expressed as my local time.
       | 
       | (Browser extension idea: automatically convert all dates/times to
       | my local time, and be able to set rules for common timezone
       | conversions for certain URLs/domains.)
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback. I agree on the point of understating the local
         | times of your attendees. hTime does that as well in the
         | "Meeting Time" feature https://thehtime.com/intersect. Here you
         | can choose the working-hour availability for all attendees so
         | you make sure it's not after 10pm their time for example. You
         | can then copy the link and share.
         | 
         | Here is an example of the best meeting time for a meeting
         | taking place San Francisco, New York, London, and Berlin. In
         | green, the clock shows the best time is between P-R baring in
         | mind that the available time to meet is between 8 and 19 (7pm).
         | Does that help?
        
       | tomcooks wrote:
       | Honest q I hope doesn't sound rude: how is this different from
       | @beat swatch time?
       | 
       | Looks really nice and I hope you and your process success, you're
       | fixing a problem
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Not at all, thanks for asking and the nice wishes ;) The
         | Internet Time, Beats, is a completely new time/clock system.
         | It's unclear what 964 for example means. With this clock, I'm
         | using the same time/clock system we all know well: 24 hours, 60
         | minutes, 60 seconds. The addition to that is UTC. Why? To make
         | the clock show the global time as well, and then map the local
         | time with the global time together in one clock face. By this,
         | we can always be in sync locally and globally. The UTC layer in
         | the middle is represented by letters to simply distinguish
         | global from local times. This layer rotates with users
         | according to their location on Earth. Why? To unify the reading
         | of time when doing the mapping, so the reading of time is
         | always the same no matter where users are. I understand that
         | the letters might be confusing a bit, but this can be fixed
         | easily by replacing them with numbers again. Here is an
         | example: 2 days ago there was the Apple event. It was at 10am
         | PDT. I'm not sure what that is in my local time and other local
         | times. If that event would be translated to hTime, it would be
         | at R:00. No matter where we are, we can see the local and
         | global hours for R:00, so no time zone calculations are needed
         | any more.
         | 
         | I believe the barrier-to-entry with a 24-hour, 60-minute,
         | 60-second system is simpler than Beat.
        
         | throw_away wrote:
         | @beat was a full decimalization of time (1000 'beats' per day).
         | 
         | This is just giving new, universal names to hours. I can see
         | this working a lot better than the alternative (use GMT/UTC
         | everywhere) as you'd always have mental contention as to
         | whether you meant a time in local or GMT. This way you don't
         | need the additional label. And I could imagine getting used to
         | the idea that my workday lasted from P-X & the other
         | geographical zones had their common hour blocs.
         | 
         | Potential issues:
         | 
         | * 0/O ambiguity
         | 
         | * presumably the day flips over when the hour goes from X->A,
         | which means sometimes it's tomorrow already.
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | Thanks for the clarification and feedback! As for the issues:
           | - 0/O: I just fixed that by excluding I & O, and adding Y &
           | Z. - Correct
        
       | prewett wrote:
       | UI feedback: when selecting time zones to coordinate for a
       | meeting, having a huge list to select from is such a pain that I
       | would use some other tool just for that reason. Some of the
       | common zones for an English-language tool are way at the bottom
       | (USA, UK), and the USA ones aren't alphabetized. Also, there's no
       | consistency with the naming: some are US states, others are
       | cities, and I couldn't find some major cities, like San
       | Francisco.
       | 
       | Just a list of time zones would be a lot easier. And even easier
       | would be a world map that I can click on that would highlight the
       | selected zones.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks for the feedback! As for the list of cities, I'll work
         | on simplifying that somehow. The map idea is pretty cool, it'll
         | take a bit longer to implement. I'll be working on that soon.
         | 
         | San Francisco definitely exists in the list, I'm not sure why
         | it doesn't show up on your side. Here is an example
         | https://thehtime.com/intersect?locations=USA+-+San+Francisco...
         | 
         | Please let me know if it works.
        
       | karmakaze wrote:
       | It's already broken idea. What good is a global time system that
       | can't even know what _day_ they 're talking about. Monday Q:45?
       | 
       | One location can say Q:45 that matches another's Q:45 but if
       | they're talking about a Q:45 several days out I can see people
       | missing connections by 24h.
       | 
       | I'll stick with UTC date+time.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Nice feedback! Well UTC date + time is the same here. It's then
         | date + hTime ;) The need to add date is there anyway.
        
       | danuker wrote:
       | I believe I'd prefer the remainder of dividing Unix time by
       | seconds in a day.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | That also works, but unfortunately not for everyone working
         | remotely and need to schedule meetings, webinars, online
         | conferences, define product deadlines, etc. I'm hoping that
         | hTime is going to simplify all of that by brining UTC back to
         | our everyday life.
        
       | Vel0cityX wrote:
       | This is why people make fun of tech bros
        
       | electroly wrote:
       | OP, make sure to test your site with a non-maximized desktop
       | browser that is taller than it is wide. Your site has severe
       | layout issues in this orientation, with text overlapping text,
       | the clock overlapping the text, the links overlapping the logo.
       | It seems like it isn't using the mobile layout, it's trying to
       | show the landscape desktop layout despite the portrait aspect of
       | the browser window. On a mobile device it looks fine when it
       | kicks into the mobile layout.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback. Noted and I'll work on fixing it.
        
       | vzaliva wrote:
       | It is weird to me to see 24 on a watch face. I know some
       | countries use it but I for me after 23:59 comes 00:00 not 24:00.
        
       | eqvinox wrote:
       | Common practice would be to have I and O excluded from use since
       | they're commonly confused (I/J/1/l and O/Q/0.)
       | 
       | (And as other comments have noted, this breaks down in utility
       | with 15/30min TZ offsets as well as when crossing the date line.)
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Great feedback. I'll work on that. Thanks! Do you work across
         | time zones yourself?
        
           | eqvinox wrote:
           | Don't most of us, nowadays? :)
        
           | hhebbo wrote:
           | Done! I've excluded I and O, and added Y and Z instead.
           | Thanks again!
        
       | kybernetikos wrote:
       | I like this. It's probably a lot easier to adopt than my version
       | which is basically a full day split into 10 parts (basically
       | French Revolutionary Time) but the same across the whole world,
       | and the clock face rotates so that local solar midday is always
       | at the top of the clock. https://kybernetikos.github.io/UIT/
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks for the feedback. The main concept is to keep using 24
         | hours, 60 minutes, 60 seconds system and build the clock on top
         | of that. Cool clock you have there as well.
        
           | kybernetikos wrote:
           | I like that you use letters to make it clear which time is
           | being discussed, cool idea and important - the problem with
           | organising cross timezone isn't so much the complication of
           | organising across timezone (you can look up a conversion
           | online instantly and easily), it's more the ambiguity about
           | which time any particular time being mentioned is.
           | 
           | I didn't originally create a new week for my system, but
           | knowing which day a meeting is on is important too for
           | meetings that are a long away apart. That's why I created
           | nullday, unday, duoday, triday, quadday, pentday, hexday,
           | heptday, and nonday.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | yes, that's the concept behind the letters. Cool day names
             | btw!
        
       | halfeatenpie wrote:
       | The concept is interesting and creative but I also think it's
       | just repackaging the problem it's trying to address but using a
       | different element as the datum. This adds an additional step
       | where you have to translate N:45 time to local by remembering how
       | the letters are re-arranged for your specific area. Therefore, I
       | don't think this solution really solves the original/intended
       | problem it's trying to address but rather hides it behind the
       | letters.
       | 
       | I'd suggest a good alternative is to just stick with Google
       | Calendar/Microsoft Outlook and/or WorldTimeBuddy.
        
         | vzaliva wrote:
         | I agree. It does not look like a simpification of the problem.
         | I have to deal with time zones all the time and WorldTimeBuddy
         | is the best tool I found so far. I wish google calendar has
         | better or at least similar UI to that.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Good feedback, thanks!
        
       | cookiengineer wrote:
       | We always used Zulu (GMT+0) to coordinate meetings around the
       | globe, but this is a very nice approach to coordinate time
       | differences. Daylight saving times are just way too chaotic
       | around the globe, as every country does their own thing anyways.
       | 
       | One thing though: Different countries imply different work hours
       | and laws/regulations.
       | 
       | For example, it is illegal to work more than 10 hours in Germany,
       | so most companies stick to the 0800-1630 work time approach
       | whereas the 30 minutes break is also required by law.
       | 
       | Something like this would be nice to represent in an
       | overlap/border/chart(?) with colors for each location around the
       | clock so that you can see where times could overlap if you e.g.
       | come late in the office to start work.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Interesting. First time I hear about using Zulu for meetings.
         | hTime is similar in a way, and as you mentioned aiming at
         | making it more convenient by combining local and global (UTC)
         | times together.
         | 
         | It's a good idea to do the working layers on top as well. did
         | you check the "Working Availability" https://thehtime.com/range
         | feature? There you can actually specify your working
         | availability and share this with others globally using a link.
         | this might help.
         | 
         | Would you like to give hTime a go to coordinate meetings
         | instead of Zulu for some days? I'd love to hear more feedback
         | from a daily usage by a team. That'd be really helpful.
        
         | midasuni wrote:
         | That would be depressing. If I'm away from work overnight I
         | want to get the work done. I'd rather babysit a system for 15
         | hours a day for 3 days then go home and have a colleague do it
         | for the next 3, rather than have to do 6 days with both of us
         | on site.
        
           | cookiengineer wrote:
           | > That would be depressing. If I'm away from hoke overnight I
           | want to get he worked done. I'd rather babysit a system for
           | 15 hours a day for 3 days then go home and have a colleague
           | do it for the next 3, rather than have to do 6 days with both
           | of us on site.
           | 
           | Honestly I don't understand your comment!?
           | 
           | Why do you have to babysit the system? My suggestion was an
           | extension to the existing clock app that OP made. Nothing
           | prevents OP from making settings storable via localStorage,
           | so I don't know where your assumptions come from?
        
             | midasuni wrote:
             | Sorry posting from a phone which has terrible autocorrect
             | and hadn't edited.
             | 
             | In repose to "illegal to work more than 10 hours in
             | Germany"
             | 
             | I had a call last night to go to a field in the middle of
             | nowhere for 3 days to look after an event as the colleague
             | who was supposed to do it has covid.
             | 
             | This means sitting on site doing whatever I want,
             | until/unless something goes wrong.
             | 
             | The coverage needed is 12 hours a day, so that's fine, I do
             | the job, get paid the overtime, and another colleague takes
             | over on Saturday to do the same job for a few days.
             | 
             | If I was limited to 10 hour days I couldn't cover 12 hours,
             | we'd need two people on site, and that means I'd have to be
             | away from home twice as long.
             | 
             | That's not a good thing for me
        
               | wongarsu wrote:
               | In Germany we would put three people on the job for 8
               | hours each. Working more than 8 hours is already the
               | exception, 10 is the hard maximum (except for some
               | exceptions like caring for people or management).
               | 
               | Germany still has a lot of blue-collar jobs, where
               | limiting work time really cuts down on accident rates. Of
               | course any law will catch some innocent cases in the
               | cross-fire.
        
               | midasuni wrote:
               | So 3 people
               | 
               | How about if I'm somewhere worse than Norfolk (where I am
               | now). Say I have a certain amount of work to do in Gaza -
               | say 180 hours of it. Do I send 3 people to do the job in
               | 4 or 5 days, or do I keep them there twice as long or
               | send twice as many people - doubling the length and
               | footprint in country, massively increasing the risk (as
               | well as more people being away from home for longer).
               | 
               | As the employee I would not be looking forward to
               | spending a full evening in the Al Deira every night,
               | assuming their generator is working. I'd rather spend
               | time at home.
               | 
               | How does it even work with travel - I've spent 6 hours
               | getting through customs and immigration in some places,
               | let alone the flight to get there.
        
               | wongarsu wrote:
               | Travel time is (as you probably guessed) somewhat more
               | complicated. The short version is that travel can happen
               | outside your work time, as long as either immediately
               | before or after the travel you aren't working (so e.g.
               | you can travel from home to a customer outside work time,
               | but traveling from work to a customer is work time).
               | 
               | As for traveling to Gaza: I guess you need more people or
               | longer. The main concern of the law aren't the
               | exceptional once-in-a-blue-moon cases but the everyday
               | problem of workers. A better, safer work environment for
               | millions is worth having some hypothetical people in Gaza
               | for a bit longer.
        
               | wink wrote:
               | Germany is not some magical place where people never work
               | more than 10h. That part of the law you quoted is only
               | about regular shifts, whereas OP's example of being on
               | site and basically waiting until something happens would
               | very much fall under SS 7.4, as being on standby, also it
               | doesn't sound like this happens every week.
               | 
               | Yes, in general I won't complain, certainly not about
               | those restrictions - but it's simply wrong to act as if
               | no one had exceptional longer shifts, or what the OP did
               | would be illegal.
        
               | cookiengineer wrote:
               | The regulation in Germany for the 10 hours hard limit is
               | actually quite important, as it's implemented via the
               | Arbeitszeitgesetz (ArbZG) [1].
               | 
               | If you have an accident and it turns out you worked more
               | than 10 hours that day, social insurance won't cover it
               | and you're basically broke for the rest of your life if
               | it was an accident with say, a hospital stay and an
               | emergency operation.
               | 
               | Also the 10 hours max are only possible if on average
               | within the surrounding 24 weeks (6 months) you work less
               | than 8 hours. If it's more than that, you're also not
               | covered by insurance.
               | 
               | My point was originally just pointing to this example
               | that 12 hour or longer shifts aren't possible in some
               | countries due to endangering the social insurance there
               | dependent on local laws.
               | 
               | The addition I suggested had in mind that you could see
               | "which shift" is working there from when to when so that
               | it's easier to coordinate in such scenarios.
               | 
               | [1] https://www.gesetze-im-
               | internet.de/arbzg/BJNR117100994.html
        
               | detaro wrote:
               | > _social insurance won 't cover it_
               | 
               | I don't think that's true, although you hear it often.
               | It's true that accidents due to exhaustion can be a
               | problem, but only if they can prove that your exhaustion
               | was not work-related or that you refused offered
               | alternatives, then the automatic accident coverage
               | doesn't apply.
        
       | capableweb wrote:
       | In the bottom right it says "patent pending", does this mean
       | you'll request payments for anyone using this in their own
       | product? If so, it'll have no way of surviving when there are
       | standarized, free datetime implementations/theories to use.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Not for using the clock no, charging people for reading time
         | would be ridiculous :) The clock is only the first step to
         | simplify time zone thinking. If people like to use this, I do
         | have plenty of ideas on what to build on top of this.
        
           | capableweb wrote:
           | > Not for using the clock no, charging people for reading
           | time would be ridiculous
           | 
           | Agree, what about the other tools on the website, that is
           | using the new time format you've created, are they within the
           | patent too? It's really unclear what the patent is covering,
           | and unfortunately your comment didn't help.
        
             | hhebbo wrote:
             | Sorry I can't disclose what the patent is covering for now,
             | but I can say it's mainly about the IP. Are you planning to
             | use hTime? I'm happy to chat about it if you like to.
        
       | zaxomi wrote:
       | A naive approach. Time zones is not that simple. Many timezones
       | have 15, 30, or 45 minutes offset (additional to the hour).
       | 
       | If I get time and date in UTC, I know when the meeting is
       | supposed to start. If the time is 12:45 UTC and the meeting is at
       | 16:00 I quickly know that the meeting starts in 3 hours and 15
       | minutes. Not that easy with M:45 and P:45
       | 
       | I do not like this.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Nice feedback. Probably the letters make it harder to follow.
         | I'll find a solution for that. I agree with you on knowing how
         | to translate UTC to your time quickly, but one of the
         | situations teams get into is: what is the best time to meet
         | between San Francisco, New York, London, and Berlin for
         | example? Here just thinking of UTC won't help unfortunately.
         | hTime solves that as well. Another issue is the time zone
         | names. For example, Apple's event was 2 days ago at 10am PDT,
         | what is that to UTC, and then what's that in my local time?
         | hTime is also trying to solve that by saying the event will
         | take place at R:00, and done.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | potiuper wrote:
       | https://unixtimestamp.com When stating an offset time the most
       | significant digits that are the same as now could be assumed, and
       | not communicated. Also, for the least significant digits times
       | with no seconds drop one zero; 5 minute intervals drop two zeros.
       | So, a meeting tomorrow at 4 pm assuming EDT is at 8464.
        
       | gnrlst wrote:
       | This is a classic example of a product that's not been thought
       | through. half-hour and 45min timezones are ignored (and plain
       | wrong when selected on the website). Not to mention it's not very
       | practical as the clock is hard to read.
        
       | alexdrue wrote:
       | I do appreciate the functionality and goal of the app, but it's
       | quite confusing for me. There are many tabs you can use, and it
       | will probably need quite a bit of a learning curve.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks for the feedback! What are the confusing part except for
         | the tabs? I'd love to work on that and improve it.
        
       | njt wrote:
       | I wrote a console based tool based on a similar idea, it shows
       | city-based timezones: https://zeitzono.org/
       | 
       | Unlike hTime, Zeitzono (currently) doesn't offer any meeting
       | suggestion times, it's up to you to figure out when to schedule.
       | That problem turned out to be kinda hard when more than a few
       | cities are taken into consideration, so I never really added it
       | in. (You do get to shift the clock to find the best time though.)
       | 
       | All in all a nice tool. My only suggestion would be maybe to add
       | some more cities to search. I couldn't find some that I tried.
       | Otherwise people have to mentally shift to the closet big
       | city/state (e.g. Gainesville, FL, US ->
       | Orlando/Tampa/Jacksonville), which may be a problem if you are
       | not familiar with the area.
       | 
       | Also, it may be nice to add some aliases (eg. Bombay for Mumbai),
       | because some places still go by their older names and not
       | everyone has switched to the newer official name.
        
         | hhebbo wrote:
         | Thanks! What cities did you try? I'm happy to add them. And
         | cool idea about the aliases, if you could give me some, I'll
         | add them too.
        
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