[HN Gopher] Hetzner Apple Mac Mini Offering
___________________________________________________________________
Hetzner Apple Mac Mini Offering
Author : ftonobo
Score : 156 points
Date : 2021-10-19 10:09 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.hetzner.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.hetzner.com)
| dhess wrote:
| Anyone know if they install ARD for remote desktop access? It's
| pretty difficult to administer a Mac remotely without MDM and/or
| ARD.
| moepstar wrote:
| According to a thread on their forum, you get SSH access and
| can install/activate VNC afterwards (or whatever else you may
| prefer).
| harshitaneja wrote:
| My experience is only with AWS, GCP, Azure and Red Hat. This
| pricing for m1 mini seems quite great to me at ~80$ compared to
| an aws t3a.xlarge Can this kind of instance be used as a server
| for deploying web apps? I have never tried hetzner. I couldn't
| find any information about data transfer costs. As someone with
| predictable traffic and no need for infinite scalability would
| you recommend such a setup?
| Lorin wrote:
| I just want a cheap way to live debug sites in Safari / Safari
| Mobile without being forced to purchase Apple hardware.
|
| Only reasonable option I've come across so far is buying used
| hardware. VM under Win10/AMD seems like a PITA.
| password4321 wrote:
| _Quickemu: Quickly create and run optimised Win-10,11
| /macOS/Linux on Linux_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28797129
|
| 404 points by nixcraft 11 days ago | 117 comments
| pixelcoins wrote:
| Why not Browserstack?
| G3rn0ti wrote:
| Debugging iOS-Safari issues on a web page requires:
|
| 1) Access to a Desktop Mac and a Desktop Safari.
|
| 2) An iOS device.
|
| The Safari debugger recognizes a plugged-in iOS device and
| then allows to debug the iOS safari remotely. That's the only
| reliable way to find iOS specific JS or CSS issues.
| Browserstack alone does not help, unfortunately AFAIR.
| jamroom wrote:
| You actually don't need the iOS device - Safari will also
| link up to the iOS simulator, so you can do this with just
| XCode.
| G3rn0ti wrote:
| But XCode is MacOS only, isn't it?
| presentation wrote:
| You can try Lambdatest.
|
| https://www.lambdatest.com/feature
| 33degrees wrote:
| Does browserstack not work for you?
| intrasight wrote:
| Used totally makes sense. I picked up a Mac Mini with a 27"
| monitor for $500.
| barney54 wrote:
| The M1 Mac Mini recently was only $600 on sale.
| treesknees wrote:
| You can also find a refurbished M1 Mac Mini for under $600
| on Apple's refurbished store.
| smoldesu wrote:
| It's a shame that web developers have to spend $500 to buy a
| bespoke web-browsing machine just to make their sites work
| better with Apple hardware. If Apple wanted people to treat
| their browser seriously, they should have simulators and
| developer tooling to spare.
| asddubs wrote:
| or just release safari cross-platform.
| password4321 wrote:
| Last I checked, there is a Windows WebKit/Safari build. I
| don't think it worked very well though:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20700914#20701334
|
| Edit: Looks like the new URL is
| https://build.webkit.org/#/builders/67?numbuilds=400 but
| the build has been broken for almost 2 weeks. The last
| successful build is the 300MB https://s3-us-
| west-2.amazonaws.com/archives.webkit.org/win-x... (as
| explained in the link above, the Apple Application
| Support libraries are required).
| [deleted]
| derefr wrote:
| Safari (not WebKit specifically; the rest of the browser)
| relies on OS libraries. Those libraries would have to be
| reimplemented for other OSes.
|
| I don't mean that that would be an impediment to porting;
| Apple have done this before--Safari 5 was available for
| Windows. (And interestingly, vice-versa, IE5 was
| available for macOS!)
|
| What I mean is that the differences in implementation of
| these OS libraries would mean that this version of Safari
| wouldn't be bug-for-bug compatible with macOS Safari; and
| therefore, testing on this version of Safari wouldn't
| necessarily get you what you want, if your goal is
| finding and squashing 100% of the bugs that testing on
| macOS Safari would allow you to find and squash.
|
| To use a pretty close analogy, it would be like a
| development workflow for Windows executable that involved
| running them under Wine in Linux, and never actually
| under Windows. You've QAed for the API surface, sure; but
| you haven't actually QAed the software for how
| Microsoft's own library _implementations_ work (and the
| bugs that those implementations introduce.)
| acoard wrote:
| You're not wrong, but in practice I'd imagine >99% of
| bugs are in the rendering / webkit layer, _not_ in the OS
| integration layer.
|
| Sure, if you're making a plugin that plays with bookmarks
| or 'Read Later', you'd likely run afoul of the issues you
| mention. But most web devs are concerned just about
| browser compatibility of rendering their web-app. In this
| context, as long as web page rendering and JS engine is
| identical between OS' it's fine.
| derefr wrote:
| Rendering issues are OS issues too. For example, Safari's
| font rendering depends on the particulars of macOS/iOS's
| font-rendering framework. Safari on Windows would
| presumably use Windows' font-rendering framework, with
| drastically different results, due to the different
| frameworks supporting different subsets of e.g. ligature-
| pair width hinting or hyphenation, thereby causing text
| to wrap in different places, such that the layout at a
| given font size + viewport size on Windows wouldn't be
| predictive of the layout at the same font size + viewport
| size on macOS. (Which is not even to mention the fonts
| you'd have by default on Windows and _not_ by default on
| macOS, that would interfere with the font family cascade,
| and yet couldn 't be suppressed from the cascade because
| _some_ macOS systems _do_ have them.)
|
| Or, for that matter, there could be certain exposed
| -webkit CSS selectors that are really just features of
| some or another macOS rendering-layer framework, with no
| Windows equivalent -- the same way that IE's ancient CSS
| "filters" were really just exposed DirectX features (e.g.
| filter: progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.blur). For
| these cases, testing on "Safari on Windows" would
| essentially just get you what testing in Chrome on
| Windows already gets you (unless Apple created an entire
| software renderer that brings in all of macOS's Quartz
| and all its subsidiary libraries as a big ol' polyfill.)
|
| The point at which Safari is guaranteed to work like it
| does on macOS, is the point at which you're bringing in a
| polyfill consisting of 99% of macOS's frameworks. May as
| well bring in the last 1% as well, and call it a VM.
| (Ideally a thin-as-possible paravirtualized VM where the
| display driver is written to directly make DirectX calls,
| etc. -- but VM client software is already pretty good at
| providing these sorts of drivers.)
| [deleted]
| acdha wrote:
| This very much depends on the bugs. In the past I've
| found many bugs in text rendering (especially related to
| non-English text[1][2]), layering (inconstent opacity),
| audio and video playback, etc. which were dependent on
| the combination of browser, operating system, and, in
| some cases, hardware. The general trend has been for
| browsers like Chrome and Firefox to take over more
| responsibility but that's not what Apple has done in
| Safari so it looks like a lot more work to say they
| should duplicate OS functionality to make it easier for
| Windows-only web developers to test with Safari.
|
| 1. https://chris.improbable.org/experiments/browser/combi
| ning-h...
|
| 2. https://chris.improbable.org/experiments/browser/javan
| ese-te...
| savoytruffle wrote:
| I don't know about the early versions, but I believe the
| final version of IE for Mac, though also numbered 5, used
| an entirely different browser engine from that on
| Windows. Tasman
|
| http://jimmy.grew.al/macie5-twentieth-anniversary/
| syshum wrote:
| Apple does not believe there are any electronics out side
| of Apple, nor that there are any web browsers outside of
| Safari.
|
| Apple believe everyone on the plant should only ever use
| Apple hardware, and Apple Software, why would anyone not
| want to run over priced low quality products?
| vxNsr wrote:
| Meanwhile the CEO uses a windows machine with outlook.
| homarp wrote:
| origin of the rumor: https://www.wired.com/story/how-
| email-open-tracking-quietly-... (or if you only want the
| Tim Cook part: https://news.softpedia.com/news/apple-s-
| ceo-tim-cook-probabl... )
| maddyboo wrote:
| Source?
| echelon wrote:
| Source, though it seems dubious:
|
| https://www.windowslatest.com/2017/12/12/apples-ceo-tim-
| cook...
|
| Also:
|
| https://www.pcworld.com/article/439674/oops-tim-cook-
| tweets-... (2014)
| mrweasel wrote:
| What? Tim Cook use Windows?
| extrememacaroni wrote:
| BIG if true :O
| servercobra wrote:
| I'd love a source on that.
| vxNsr wrote:
| The guy who wrote the book about the making of the iphone
| sent a bunch of emails to tim cook with tracking enabled
| and each time it was opened by a windows device. other
| comments in this thread have more links the story.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| His public email address is handled by staff.
| packetslave wrote:
| Remember that running OS X (including in a VM) on anything
| other than Apple hardware is _technically_ a violation of Apple
| 's terms of service.
|
| If you're just doing it for personal use, this probably isn't a
| big deal. If you're doing it for your business, make sure you
| consider the risks.
| btian wrote:
| You can rent from Amazon for $1/hour
|
| It supports remote desktop and everything you would need
| amarshall wrote:
| Sort of as there is a minimum of 24-hours.
|
| > Billing for EC2 Mac instances is per second with a 24-hour
| minimum allocation period to comply with the Apple macOS
| Software License Agreement.
| swebs wrote:
| Do those 24 hours need to be continuous?
| schiederme wrote:
| Yes. It's in the MacOS ToS.
| Aea wrote:
| You can rent from Amazon for $25.99 a day and then for $1.083
| an hour after your one day minumum.
|
| > Billing for EC2 Mac instances is per second with a 24-hour
| minimum allocation period to comply with the Apple macOS
| Software License Agreement.
| pmarreck wrote:
| I have a macOS VM under VMWare running on Windows. It wasn't
| that difficult, found some guides online by googling obvious
| search words. The only thing I haven't gotten to work yet is
| the App Store, but I saw a guide for that, just haven't done it
| yet. You won't get graphics acceleration btw, but CPU
| performance is fine.
|
| I believe the trickiest bit was running a macOS serial
| generation app and copying that value into the VM settings.
|
| (I've purchased plenty of Macs over the years so pls Apple,
| this is just for dev purposes!)
| rdsnsca wrote:
| Enjoy it while it last, in 3 or 4 years Apple will drop Intel
| macOS support.
| disiplus wrote:
| 3 or 4 years. sure not, they still sell intel macs on the
| website.
| pmarreck wrote:
| By then, Windows 11+ will have moved onto ARM and whatever
| cross binary solution Microsoft is working on should be
| complete. Also, with emulation/virtualization, it's still
| perfectly feasible
| freemint wrote:
| Note that this is part of Hetzners dedicated offers, meaning the
| first bill is 2 times the monthly rate because setup fees.
| jordemort wrote:
| This could be an interesting way to run mautrix-imesssage. I
| wonder if they've got it hooked up to some sort of remote console
| solution; I've never been able to figure out how to get less-
| than-wretched performance out of the VNC server baked into the
| OS.
| gizdan wrote:
| > This could be an interesting way to run mautrix-imesssage
|
| Wouldn't you be able to have only a single identity? Because
| unless you can have multiple identities with a single instance,
| it would be a very expensive way of having iMessage
| capabilities.
| djrogers wrote:
| VMs have been a thing in the Mac world for a long time now,
| and these would be powerful enough to run a bunch of them.
| gizdan wrote:
| I'm aware, but I thought iMessage had some hardware
| identifier that was necessary to use it. I guess my
| understanding was incorrect then!
| KarlKemp wrote:
| The identifier is part of it, as I remember from my
| mackintosh days, but it cannot be all: MacOS works well
| as a multi-user system, including separate iMessage
| accounts for each user.
| gruez wrote:
| Apparently mautrix-imessage supports jailbroken iphones. Isn't
| that much more cost effective (eg. $50 for a used iphone 4s)
| than paying $50/month?
| sgt wrote:
| Is it reliable? iMessage is not reliable on Hackintosh (over
| multiple years) due to security checks etc.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I never had any issues with it when I was hackintoshing. I
| stopped around Catalina though, so ymmv I guess.
| yodon wrote:
| Have you run mautrix-imessage? I'm trying to work through the
| docs to understand if I could use it as a way to proxy my
| received imessages (and iOS text messages?) onto my windows
| device as they arrive.
| jordemort wrote:
| Yes, right now I run it on an old MacBook Pro, that is
| otherwise sitting idle. It is very reliable. The only issue I
| have is HEIC attachments not being displayed on the Element
| desktop client (due to a lack of support in either Electron
| or Chromium, I forget what piece was ultimately to blame
| there.)
| e12e wrote:
| Curious about how they are "delivered" - ssh login with root
| access? Anyone know?
| TimWolla wrote:
| SSH by default according to Hetzner's customer forum [1].
|
| [1]
| https://forum.hetzner.com/index.php?thread/28493/&postID=280...
| sillycube wrote:
| Isn't it expensive? But for quick testing (like safari), it may
| be good
| pachico wrote:
| The rest of us not using Apple product watch with perplexity all
| things related to Apple hardware/licences, etc.
| Spivak wrote:
| I mean if you're developing/testing for AIX you're gonna have
| to buy/find a vendor that licenses POWER8. I feel like we've
| forgotten that running software on commodity hardware is the
| exception rather than the rule for the bulk of CS history.
| kleiba wrote:
| I have seen mixed reviews about Hetzner online. Does anyone have
| any enlightening anecdotal evidence in favor or against the
| company?
| heipei wrote:
| They are truly great for thrifty do-it-yourself hosting. Don't
| expect customer support or discounts or anything, but their
| prices are impossible to beat, and everything works as
| advertised. The big gotcha is that their only points of
| presence are in Germany and Finland.
|
| My only gripe would be that running your business on Hetzner
| can be a little bit scary at times since they have so much
| unattended automation in place to block abuse. For example, if
| your server is erroneously sending traffic with private IP
| addresses out of its public interface, they will block the
| server without warning. I don't have any other providers to
| compare this against, so that might just be how it is.
| jventura wrote:
| > For example, if your server is erroneously sending traffic
| with private IP addresses out of its public interface, they
| will block the server without warning.
|
| I had a CS class last semester where the students used some
| Hetzner cloud servers. I always got an email or two before
| having the servers IPs blocked. And it were mostly students'
| faults by choosing easy passwords..
|
| I recommend Hetzner! No affiliation, just a happy user..
| moepstar wrote:
| >>>Don't expect customer support
|
| To be fair, you can also book a managed server with them.
|
| For their hosted hardware offering, HDD/SSD swaps (or even
| "we replace everything about your server because it produces
| random faults _except_ your HDDS ") are within reasonable
| timeframes (i.e. usually within an hour).
|
| They, however, _will not diagnose this for you_ - that part
| is on you.
| IceWreck wrote:
| Have been using them for years, never had an issue.
|
| I have heard that they disconnect you for a couple of hours if
| youre being heavily DDOSSed tho.
| Cu3PO42 wrote:
| I've been a customer for years and have nothing negative to
| say. They are providing exactly the products they are
| advertising. Even those specs that don't necessarily have hard
| numbers attached with all products (disk speed, CPU
| performance) have always been good.
|
| That said, there are some products certain customers expect
| that they will not sell you (and don't advertise). For example,
| you won't be able to click a button to deploy Software Y pre-
| configured by the provider as you might with Digital Ocean.
| What you'll get is mostly along the lines of "server with the
| OS of your choice and your SSH key installed on it". If that's
| what you're looking for, Hetzner is difficult to beat on price
| to performance.
| iyn wrote:
| I've been their customer for over 2 years, no problems at all
| and I'm very happy with their prices and offering. Started with
| dedicated server and now I'm also using their cloud services
| for some of my EU-based clients. Can definitely recommend, I
| much prefer Hetzner vs no-name VPS providers when I need cheap
| VMs.
| eliaspro wrote:
| Happy customer for more than 15 years.
|
| I used to run several root-servers and once they started their
| cloud-offering moved everything over there.
|
| Support was always great (although rarely needed), performance
| is fantastic, prices hard to beat.
|
| I love the simplicity of their cloud offering which fits my
| use-cases perfectly and doesn't put the burden of overly
| complex products, APIs and tools on me as a user.
| lokl wrote:
| I moved personal projects to Hetzner from Linode several years
| ago, due to significantly better pricing for the RAM I needed,
| and I haven't had any problems. I am using a few of their
| "cloud" shared servers (https://www.hetzner.com/cloud) and
| backups, can't speak to other services. I'm not doing anything
| CPU or IO intensive, though.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I had a dedicated server in Germany from Hetzner that I was
| pretty pleased with. Bandwidth was unlimited (I peaked at 1
| TB/24h).
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| I've been using a dedicated server (intel gen 3 from their
| second hand server marketplace) for about a year now and
| haven't had any problems.
|
| It's only hosting personal stuff though, nothing popular or for
| business. Uptime has been good so far as well.
|
| One disadvantage might be the Gigabit ports on most servers, if
| you really need a lot of bandwidth.
| programmer_dude wrote:
| Is 58.31 = 5831 here? It's doubly confusing: dot instead of comma
| and separator at the hundredths position.
| ginko wrote:
| Your nick is programmer_dude and a dot for a decimal point
| confuses you?
| floatingatoll wrote:
| Let's not be a jerk to people who are trying to learn. We all
| started out unaware of things we now consider essential
| knowledge. For (my) example, timezones offsets can and do
| include partial hour offsets (+0415 is/was real), and dates
| should generally be YYYY-MM-DD (when not displayed to end
| users) for your sanity (and because iso8601).
|
| OP, you can look up the numeric formats for Germany in your
| system preferences or Excel or similar -- it can help to see
| them templated out sometimes.
| rudian wrote:
| The user has been "programmer_dude" for 6 years just on HN,
| there's no chance that they didn't learn about the dot.
|
| I'm confused as to how they can be confused.
|
| Even in my comma-as-separator country, our calculators have
| a dot. The only thing that could be confusing is
| encountering numbers with 3 decimals: 123,456 vs 123.456
| programmer_dude wrote:
| See my reply to ginko.
| programmer_dude wrote:
| Yes, it managed to confuse me. Here's how...
|
| 1. I did not notice the M1 was being offered on rent. I
| assumed it was for sale at the listed price.
|
| 2. Since 58.31 EUR is an unrealistic price for an M1 machine
| (and since this is a European site) I concluded the site must
| be using a comma instead of a dot. 5831 EUR is a realistic
| price for a Mac afterall.
|
| Unfortunately the site is using a dot for a dot despite being
| European and the M1 is being offered on rent.
| Doctor_Fegg wrote:
| It's not selling you a Mac mini for EUR58.31. It's letting
| you rent one for EUR58.31 a month. That's why it says
| "monthly". Hetzner is a hosting provider.
|
| [edit: this comment written before the parent comment was
| edited to include point 1]
| programmer_dude wrote:
| The parent comment was posted with point one, the last
| paragraph was introduced in the edit.
| pantulis wrote:
| Love HN's eventual consistency!
| vineyardmike wrote:
| > 5831 EUR is a realistic price for a Mac afterall.
|
| Not really... the Mac Pro is famous for its high price, but
| this explicitly says mac mini which is almost exactly an
| order of magnitude less than 5831 EUR .
| dkersten wrote:
| > Unfortunately the site is using a dot for a dot despite
| being European and the M1 is being offered on rent.
|
| You're on the international version of the site.
|
| If you go to the German version, they quote the price as
| 58,31 EUR:
|
| https://www.hetzner.de/dedicated-rootserver/matrix-apple
| gizdan wrote:
| In much of Europe commas are thousand separators, dots are
| decimal point separators. So what you're seeing is fifty eight
| euros and thirty one euro-cents.
| moreira wrote:
| You might be surprised to find that that is not the case in
| Europe. In fact, apart from China and English-influenced
| countries, very few countries around the world use dots for
| decimal points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separat
| or#Countries_us...
| CameronNemo wrote:
| But English and Chinese influenced countries comprise a
| significant portion of the world. The top 3 most populous
| countries use dots for decimals (China, India, United
| States) according to your link.
| moreira wrote:
| You are right, and that is still not "in much of Europe".
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| 58.31 EUR per month is between 58 and 59 euros per month.
| 0x008 wrote:
| in German comma = dot, so it is 58.31
| durnygbur wrote:
| Is Hetzner still sending paper contract over snail mail to use
| their services? Then requiring the signed paper contract be sent
| back by post? I haven't cared enough about their offer to check
| by myself again.
| chuckSu wrote:
| Are you making up stories?
| sgt wrote:
| No, but I am sure they can accommodate fax for you.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| in the US I was required to file ID by paper to start an
| account-- much later the project migrated, my manager
| apparently stopped paying the bill and it was in my personal
| name
| Eldt wrote:
| Just a photo of ID sent digitally for me (I'm in the EU, might
| make a difference)
| kleiba wrote:
| Can you opt out of that and ask for a paper contract via
| snail mail then?
| input_sh wrote:
| Never experienced anything like that, been a happy user for
| about half a decade.
| drcongo wrote:
| Me neither, been using them for 15 years.
| zibzab wrote:
| They do this for new accounts, obviously it will not affect
| you guys??
| robjan wrote:
| They asked for me to send a selfie holding my Hong Kong
| Identity Card but no other bureaucracy.
| simplyinfinity wrote:
| I've been using them for the past 7 years, never had to provide
| anything on paper, but ID/company validation is required.
| dkersten wrote:
| When did they require this? I haven't used Hetzner in about 8
| years, but back then, I did not need to do this, I just signed
| up online with a credit card.
| maltalex wrote:
| Never ran into that requirement.
|
| I have a bare metal + several cloud instances on Hetzner.
| julienfr112 wrote:
| scaleway has also an M1 offer
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I had actually bought a bunch of M1 Minis that I set up as a
| video encoding farm. The organization I set it up for moved on,
| so now I'm sitting with 8 M1 minis. 1 of them is my daily driver,
| but the other 7 are just sitting there.
|
| I contemplated setting up a rental service for them (something
| like $40-50/mo?) since I have symmetric 2 gbps fiber to my
| office, but I just haven't prioritized.
|
| Are people actually interested enough for this to really be worth
| it?
| freediver wrote:
| One can get a Mac Mini directly from Apple at $58.25/mo for 12
| months. Granted, that does not include power and bandwidth but
| it is also yours after just 12 months. I think a more
| reasonable price point for lease would be around $25/month. Or
| $50/mo but user owns it after two years, continuing to pay for
| power/bandwidth.
|
| Having said that, how would the user access this? Would you
| have some kind of VMs or how did you imagine it?
| Aulig wrote:
| I rent mac minis because I need them to compile iOS apps. By
| renting them from a datacenter I get better uptime & internet
| speed & reliability than if I just set it up at home. That's
| why I pay a premium for it.
| 404mm wrote:
| What kind of access do you get? Is it more about utilizing
| GUI (with some KVM), ssh or some sort of agent process (eg
| Jenkins or similar)
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| I think the benefit of paying $50/mo is that you only need it
| for a month or 2, or only sporadically, you can just buy in
| occasionally.
|
| If re-imaging them wasn't such a pain in the ass, I'd offer
| daily at something silly like $3/day. That way they only need
| to rent it when they need it, and the 8 minis would stretch
| farther, but I'd have to automate the re-image somehow, so
| more work.
|
| User would access it via VNC to a subdomain that is pointed
| to a VLAN inside my office. They would be full metal to the
| M1, not VMs.
| schiederme wrote:
| It requires a bunch of software development to get such a
| service running. In a Cloud way. Also you need to enroll them
| in an organization, so the user can not become rough and bind
| them to their private Apple ID and bricking it.
|
| You could donate them to open source projects for improving
| their software (either physical or as a service).
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| > bind them to their private Apple ID and bricking it.
|
| Would this actually brick them? Wouldn't a factory reset (how
| I've always re-imaged Macs) not wipe that out?
| httpsterio wrote:
| If the users manage to get the hardware banned from Apple
| dev tools, then it's as good as bricked in my opinion as it
| can't function in its' intended fashion and a factory reset
| doesn't help.
| jermaustin1 wrote:
| developer tools are linked to your iCloud. Why would
| apple ban them at the hardware level?
| tiffanyh wrote:
| A Linux based M1 Max with ECC memory (and no GPU) would be a
| phenomenal server that could run the vast majority of hosting
| workloads.
|
| Hosting providers would also love it because it's super small
| form factor and extremely low on power usage.
| [deleted]
| sgt wrote:
| That 19% you can get back if you are outside of Yurop.
| Svip wrote:
| Or if you are a business within the EU.
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(page generated 2021-10-19 23:02 UTC)