[HN Gopher] Pursue High-Quality Leisure
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Pursue High-Quality Leisure
        
       Author : vitabenes
       Score  : 174 points
       Date   : 2021-10-16 10:51 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.deprocrastination.co)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.deprocrastination.co)
        
       | 2Gkashmiri wrote:
       | Maybe you've been "online" for so long that you have no idea what
       | to do when you're not online.
       | 
       | This hit too close to home. Ive been online _almost_ everyday
       | since 2004 so yeah.
        
         | godDLL wrote:
         | What kind of planning would it take for you to have a detox
         | week? Do you have to call someone, tell them you won't be
         | answering the phone this week? Do you need to notify your
         | employer, work something out for that week to only come in on
         | Thursday?
        
           | 2Gkashmiri wrote:
           | i have never done that on my own volition.
           | 
           | https://kashmirglacier.com/2019/12/16/internet-gag-
           | kashmir-h...
        
       | dainiusse wrote:
       | The author doesn't have kids I guess :) that turns the world
       | around. Especially if you have twins or more.
        
         | Godel_unicode wrote:
         | I know lots of people who both have kids and engage in tons of
         | the items on this list. One of the most active, well-read
         | people I know is a mother of 5.
        
           | iman453 wrote:
           | How does she manage? Any particular techniques you learned
           | from her? :)
        
         | WalterGR wrote:
         | Kids go to bed early. There's time in evening.
        
           | mderazon wrote:
           | They also tend to wake up early
        
           | deckiedan wrote:
           | Our 4 year old wakes up about 6am (give or take 45 minutes)
           | and as soon as she knows I'm awake, wants to read, talk, play
           | together. Our 7 year old gets to bed at 7:45 in the evening,
           | which is early compared to his friends. All the time outside
           | of work between 6am and 7:45 pm is dominated by them. In the
           | nicest possible way - but it's full on. All the time. My wife
           | and I are both very tired by 7:45pm, need some social /
           | couple time, but have so little mental energy to do anything
           | beyond chores / essentials that all pre kids hobbies are
           | waaaaay deprioritised. Say we have friends over once a week,
           | a date night once a week, a social / community engagement
           | once a week, a rest evening, it's like 4 evenings (8pm until
           | 10pm...) max available for anything - with brains like mush.
           | Add in chores, finances, shopping, contacting relatives and
           | others...
        
           | quickthrower2 wrote:
           | Yeah way too tired to do much between 9:30 and 10!
        
         | peterkelly wrote:
         | My father's solution was to set aside every Saturday to play a
         | full 18-hole round of golf. I grew up in a family of three
         | children and he kept this up since the beginning (and still
         | does). It did him wonders as a way to de-stress from his work,
         | get physical exercise, and maintain a healthy social life
         | outside of work, while still leaving time on the weekend to
         | spend with family.
         | 
         | I don't have kids myself, but if I did I'd imagine I'd try to
         | find something similar.
        
       | avgcorrection wrote:
       | Reminds me of an episode of Queer Eye For the Straight Guy. The
       | guy had a mess of a house. Clutter everywhere. He had no style to
       | speak of. Didn't really seem interesting either. Of course the
       | queer guys fixed things up for him.
       | 
       | What was mentioned kind of in passing was that he worked two
       | jobs. I don't think the makeover was lasting.
        
       | giantg2 wrote:
       | How is consuming some of these other digital products better than
       | "surfing" the internet?
       | 
       | Most of the time I'm learning things on the internet. It also
       | helps one find new hobbies. For example, I've been researching
       | ultralight aircraft recently. I dont think I'll actually get one
       | due to price, storage, spouse, etc. But it's fun to learn about.
        
       | kstenerud wrote:
       | Pro-tip: Don't try to optimize your leisure time.
       | 
       | https://dilbert.com/strip/1997-07-25
        
       | bluehat974 wrote:
       | Tomorrow, when we will work less, have basic income, and have
       | more leisure time, this type of list will be very important.
       | Otherwise, we will be human in Wall E movie
        
       | sysadm1n wrote:
       | > he was scared of stopping playing video games and surfing the
       | Internet
       | 
       | For me it depends on the _utility_ I get out of games. Minecraft
       | is like Lego 2.0 and players often share custom maps they 've
       | built so there's a community there too. Minecraft is also
       | hackable and I've seen many videos on Youtube of people creating
       | exceptionally creative things with it. It's not just a time-sink:
       | people derive pleasure out of _sharing_ their creativity with the
       | world - something difficult to do with Lego or board-games.
       | 
       | As for surfing the Internet: well yes the Internet can be an
       | endless rabbithole if you let it. I've stopped treating it as a
       | rabbithole though, and casually glance at the Hackernews
       | frontpage in the morning, see what tools / services / products I
       | can leverage going forward, then close the tab, after bookmarking
       | a link or two which I will revisit later when I'm feeling
       | creative. Same for Reddit, Twitter etc
       | 
       | You can either scroll _mindfully_ or scroll _mindlessly_. It 's
       | your choice.
        
       | greenail wrote:
       | "meet new people" is missing from the list. I wonder how diverse
       | a 20-something's circle is these days vs 20 years ago. I used to
       | talk to as many different people as I could: motor cycle
       | mechanics, Johns Hopkins post docs, NSA engineers, actors, set
       | dressers, woodworkers, painters, business owners. Does the
       | opportunity to get out of your "social bubble" still exist today?
        
         | qolop wrote:
         | It doesn't, for me. I'm 20 something and work from home. I want
         | to fix this but don't know how to. The pandemic has complicated
         | things even more. :(
        
       | analyst74 wrote:
       | I have a theory, all the "high quality" hobbies are challenging
       | in one way or another, thus require some level of will power to
       | push yourself to do it.
       | 
       | If you've been pushing yourself hard at work all day, then you
       | have likely depleted your will power. Passive activities become
       | the only ones you feel like doing.
        
         | stevesimmons wrote:
         | > Passive activities become the only ones you feel like doing.
         | 
         | That's not the case in my experience. After a full day managing
         | teams, solving problems and coding, I find it "relaxing" to do
         | a physically and mentally challenging instructor/coach-led
         | activity.
         | 
         | For me, that means swimming, water polo or other team sport,
         | dance classes learning a complex choreography, etc.
         | 
         | It's relaxing switching off the "I'm in charge" part of my
         | brain, while still getting the flow and enjoyment of improving
         | a skill, especially with others in a non-tech environment.
        
         | chihuahua wrote:
         | That's not the case for me. After working on annoying software
         | tasks all day, I like to do a 34-mile/2-hour bike ride. I do
         | this same route very frequently. It's refreshing because it's
         | so completely different from my job.
         | 
         | In contrast, a lot of games feel like work - guess where you're
         | supposed to go or how to solve a problem, fail due to some
         | trivial mistake, retry many times.
        
         | hyperpallium2 wrote:
         | Even, predictable difficulty is key. Too easy and it's boring;
         | too hard and it's frustrating. Suddenly, surprisingly difficult
         | is so challenging it's the kind of thing that gets you riches
         | and fame.
        
         | godDLL wrote:
         | Yes, yes, yes, and no. Not passive.
         | 
         | Low starting effort. Mise en place.
         | 
         | I have similarly found that all of my activities are not things
         | you can do when you're recovering from food poisoning and have
         | massive thick brain fog all day. So I got into gardening,
         | cooking and then baking, improving my own work clothing and
         | putting up shelves around the kitchen and house.
         | 
         | And walking alone. Which is amazing, if you leave your phone at
         | home.
        
         | aesyondu wrote:
         | After switching careers to software engineering, I find that I
         | appreciate high intensity / action oriented video games less
         | (DMC, Monster Hunter, etc.).
         | 
         | My browser history is now filled with "chill or relaxing
         | games", "games that don't need thinking" or something to that
         | effect.
        
           | Godel_unicode wrote:
           | Presenting an alternative perspective, I have a high pressure
           | job that requires deep thought (I'm in infosec) and my
           | hobbies are pretty much all about skill/intensity. No
           | judgement if that's what you like, but I find chill/relaxing
           | games to be boring and can't play them for very long without
           | having to go find something more meaningful to do. I enjoy
           | being alone with my thoughts, I just find low-stakes games to
           | be a weird in-between area and while I know they're super
           | popular I just don't get it.
           | 
           | As a sibling comment says, ego depletion research is pretty
           | low quality in terms of reproducibility. Anecdotally, I have
           | never found it to be true for me.
        
             | sam0x17 wrote:
             | Last time I worked in infosec, it was quite slow, depending
             | on what you're doing. AFAIK you're either monitoring
             | things, in which case it only gets interesting when there
             | is an incident, and/or you're doing projects, but they are
             | slow moving because they involve approvals, physical
             | hardware, etc. If you're writing code all day I guarantee
             | you'll feel drained.
        
               | Godel_unicode wrote:
               | As I said in the post you replied to, my job is high
               | pressure and requires deep thought. My team writes a ton
               | of code, and there's an on-call rotation where you're
               | dealing with incidents and grooming training sets for our
               | models.
               | 
               | > ...I guarantee you'll feel drained.
               | 
               | You'd lose that bet. Maybe you are, I however find
               | writing code just as interesting and invigorating as I
               | did over a decade ago in university. I do it at work, I
               | do it in my free time both for purpose and for fun.
        
               | sam0x17 wrote:
               | I'm just saying that from experience, I highly doubt
               | there is an infosec job where you have less free time
               | than the average coder. If you have time for deep
               | thinking about problems, you have the kind of time I'm
               | talking about that is super rare _on average_ in the
               | industry.
        
           | maddyboo wrote:
           | > chill and relax
           | 
           | > don't need thinking
           | 
           | You seem to be seeking proxies for the effect of not
           | thinking, putting your mind and body at ease, and letting go.
           | Have you given meditation a try? Anecdotally, it can fulfill
           | these needs in a way no other semi-conscious activity seems
           | capable.
        
             | aesyondu wrote:
             | I started meditating when I was in university and have done
             | it on and off since then. However, I've stopped a couple of
             | months ago and haven't had the will to do it again. I find
             | other activities more compelling, like reading everylayout
             | or about rails performance.
        
               | [deleted]
        
           | billfruit wrote:
           | My experience has been that if work is exhausting, then I
           | turn to games that don't have much of narrative, but which
           | rather on the mechanics. Like racing games, one does not have
           | to think too much, but one has to be alert and focused on it.
        
             | pezezin wrote:
             | Doom Eternal was that kind of game for me. After a long day
             | with another pointless meeting with the usual assholes,
             | slaying demons left and right was almost therapeutic.
        
             | skydhash wrote:
             | Same, I have a bunch of games like Nier: Automata,
             | Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, Bloodborne, Control and I
             | found that I can only play them on the weekend. After work,
             | I can only play game like Dirt Rally, Trials Fusion and
             | Apex Legends' Arena. Where you don't have to strategize
             | that much and only rely on learnt reflexes. Anything that
             | requires decisions or deciphering clues is impossible.
        
         | dend wrote:
         | Ego depletion as a concept has been challenging to prove, if at
         | all:
         | https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.0056...
         | 
         | I agree that often certain hobbies require a push to get
         | started. That initial barrier is what I found the hardest to
         | overcome, but once you start going - it becomes easier and
         | easier. Similar to how one can attempt to overcome moments of
         | procrastination - you need to get started and push through
         | initial discomfort.
        
           | bredren wrote:
           | > once you start going - it becomes easier and easier.
           | 
           | It isn't just getting going makes the project (hobby) easier.
           | 
           | It is the ability to organize the project into small steps
           | that are relatively easy and yield novel artifacts.
           | 
           | Giving light structure to a hobby or side project (such as
           | using GitHub issues even if it doesn't involve code) let's
           | you pick up where you left off and see the incremental
           | progress.
           | 
           | This administration is a practice of itself but the more you
           | do it, the more natural it feels and easier it becomes to see
           | progress.
        
           | amelius wrote:
           | > once you start going - it becomes easier and easier
           | 
           | This may hold for activities like programming, where every
           | decision follows almost logically from the previous ones. But
           | if you're doing really hard research, with setback after
           | setback, then it's much harder to "ignite" a work appetite.
        
           | marginalia_nu wrote:
           | > Ego depletion as a concept has been challenging to prove,
           | if at all
           | 
           | Isn't this just a problem in trying to reduce the phenomenal
           | experience of self into some objective reality, a quest that
           | reduces to something adjacent to the hard problem of
           | consciousness.
        
           | rolisz wrote:
           | I think it's more that after 8 exhausting hours, I don't have
           | energy anymore for anything. The 8 exhausting hours would be
           | a day full of meetings, after which my brain is a mush and
           | doesn't work anymore.
        
             | VeninVidiaVicii wrote:
             | Yes and imagine an intense level of stress when your
             | partner asks what kind of movie you want to watch. Because,
             | your brain just cannot process a single new decision.
        
               | bredren wrote:
               | Consider keeping a list of media you want to watch for
               | occasions like this.
               | 
               | Exhausted or not, you're probably more likely to come
               | across something unexpectedly and write it down than
               | remember them all and offer up something fitting from
               | memory.
        
               | scns wrote:
               | Well, the watchlist gets longer and when i want to watch
               | something it is hard to choose.
        
               | vbezhenar wrote:
               | You wrote it as a humour. But I learned that if I
               | minimize an amount of decisions I have to do in my life,
               | that makes me more productive at work. I believe that
               | making a decision is the most exhausting activity, at
               | least for me. I can spend my daily decision limit to
               | choosing a movie or choosing a framework.
        
               | scns wrote:
               | I read that Steve Jobs chose one outfit to wear every
               | day. One less choice to make. Rituals/Habits help too. I
               | learned the hard way that organization actually frees
               | yourself to do stuff.
        
             | aloner wrote:
             | Having a 15 to 30 minutes nap when my brains is mushy
             | usually allow me to reset and get my mind in a more
             | energized state, might be worth trying for you too.
        
             | teekert wrote:
             | I don't believe this, if you push yourself to bike through
             | a forrest, run until you're out of breath, talk a long walk
             | after work... You'll come back with more energy then when
             | you spend that time on the couch binging Squid Game. There
             | is just no doubt in my mind about this.
             | 
             | But it may start out feeling like a diet for the mind, that
             | I am willing to believe. But like with a healthy diet
             | you'll benefit immensely over time. But it requires
             | discipline.
        
               | akgerber wrote:
               | I took a 60 mile bike ride yesterday in perfect weather,
               | much of it on a beautiful forest road, and afterwards I
               | was exhausted and it took a huge amount of effort even
               | just to feed myself, and it was totally impossible to
               | summon any motivation to spend 5 minutes to do the dishes
               | afterward. I've been riding a bike for a decades, have
               | crossed continents by bike, and have bike commuted my
               | entire career pre-COVID.
               | 
               | I slept pretty well and feel healthy and energized today
               | and doing the dishes was easy this morning, but it's
               | totally contrary to my entire life experience to claim
               | that doing something physically tiring gives you more
               | energy afterward.
               | 
               | Not that doing nothing all the time feels good-- humans
               | just don't have unlimited capacity for output. Taking a
               | leisurely morning walk (or a moderate-distance bike
               | commute) certainly gets my day started on the right foot,
               | but going harder faster longer at physical activity makes
               | me physically tired and less capable of doing other
               | things.
        
               | TuringNYC wrote:
               | I'll bet there is a curve. My own experiences cycling
               | suggest that a little bit isnt helpful. A good amount is
               | energizing, and too much is exhausting. For me those
               | attachment and detachment points are probably [0;8;20].
               | Your mileage will absolutely vary.
               | 
               | A great exercise would be to find some causality from
               | Strava data and git commit, both of which I have fairly
               | extensive data on.
        
               | manmal wrote:
               | Human metabolism, and also the brain, needs rest after
               | exertion in order to be able to do more work. Some people
               | have it easier in that regard, but everybody has their
               | own limits. Discipline in that context means pushing
               | limits, which is not advisable long-term. Every system
               | eventually fails when put under too much ongoing stress -
               | burnout (/overtraining) is one of the lesser problems
               | this can create.
        
               | teekert wrote:
               | Pushing limits in terms of the brain is binging garbage
               | in stead of looking at trees, listening to birds.
               | 
               | Pushing the limits of a body is sitting in a chair for 8
               | hours, barely moving, in stead of walking around doing
               | stuff with your hands, taking a swim, climbing a tree
               | picking some nuts.
               | 
               | We should make no mistakes about what the natural actions
               | and states of our minds and bodies are.
        
               | manmal wrote:
               | Sounds like good advice for people who work out of a
               | cabin in or near the woods, and probably don't have kids
               | or a partner with their own schedule.
        
               | rolisz wrote:
               | I do workout regularly and I do go for walks. But like a
               | diet, the effect is long term, not immediate.
        
           | grp000 wrote:
           | I used to push paperwork and send out emails, sometimes
           | analyzing drawings, but not actually use my brain too much as
           | a construction project engineer. As a data engineer, it
           | definitely feels more taxing on the mental side.
        
         | louis8799 wrote:
         | It's not like that at least when it comes to running. The more
         | I run, the more will power I have for all the other stuffs.
        
           | andhuman wrote:
           | Unless you end up on the bathroom floor, having overexerted
           | yourself. Be kind to yourself people.
        
       | elefanten wrote:
       | What is even going on here? Scroll to the bottom and this low
       | production self-help book (which looks like it should be happy to
       | be free) has three tiers of pricing and subscription crap?
       | 
       | This seems nutty.
        
       | itronitron wrote:
       | Cleaning the carpets and floors is also a good way to fill the
       | vacuum.
        
       | didibus wrote:
       | I've actually found video games is one of my high quality
       | leisure, but only the single player or local multiplayer
       | experiences.
       | 
       | My low quality leisure are my consumption (or constant checking
       | for new content or upvotes) of blogs, articles, news, social
       | media posts of people that aren't my real close friends or
       | family, and all of my online commenting, including this one.
       | 
       | Probably also consuming things I didn't actually want to consume
       | count as well, so like watching random things that Netflix
       | recommended or just showed up on TV versus watching a movie I'm
       | actually interested in and want to watch. This is same for
       | randomly playing video games like say on GamePass (like trying a
       | bunch of games quickly).
       | 
       | I'm trying to cut a lot of that out, and instead focus on playing
       | only the games that truly interest me, watching only the shows
       | and movies that truly interest me, only the books I really want
       | to read, etc. Once you cut it down to just that, you'll find you
       | still have a ton of free time, and you'll slowly be forced to
       | also take a walk, go for a bike ride, work on your hobby
       | projects, call a friend, grab a coffee, do a workout, cook
       | something from a recipe book, play with your kids, take your
       | partner out on a date, or go to bed early, etc.
        
         | vitabenes wrote:
         | Yes. High-quality games like Factorio or Machinarium are quite
         | good fun. Also helps if a game is finite, not infinite. For
         | example, while you can play Factorio endlessly, the rocket is
         | the goal and it gets less fun once you've done all the things -
         | which is good. You play it, you enjoy it, you move on. That
         | kind of play is quite healthy.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | ArtWomb wrote:
       | I'd add a scientific bent to those pursuits, if you are so
       | inclined. Get into the habits of thinking like a naturist in the
       | Age of Humboldt vein. A local library, for example, recently held
       | a "DIY Telescope" night. And I always get personally nostalgic
       | whenever I see a young child of today heading out to the fields
       | to test an Estes Rocket ;)
        
       | motohagiography wrote:
       | We need a better popular understanding of "hobbies," because it
       | conflates a bunch of highly sophisticated activities, and
       | dismisses them as neutral distractions from laboring for the
       | profit of others. The underlying presumption is that your
       | identity is labour you get paid for, and anything you don't get
       | paid for is somehow inessential to who you are. It's an
       | impoverished worldview based on scarcity and ignores growth. A
       | hobby is only a distraction if you have internazlied an identity
       | as the subject of some supervisor, and that "free time," comes as
       | a treat or a reward from some other unspecified party, as though
       | you were just a pet doing tricks for approval. Treating them
       | diminuitively is just a polite way of not embarassing other
       | people who are unable to manage their time as well or enrich
       | their own lives to the same degree. Personally, I don't have
       | hobbies, I just do a lot of things, and so I manage my time to do
       | them, and adopting that worldview lets you do more of them.
        
       | pech0rin wrote:
       | Learning is not a leisure activity. I'm not saying it can't be
       | fun or engaging or a great pastime but it requires as much focus
       | if not more than work. It also requires constant attention (even
       | if its in small amounts). It gives people a feeling of
       | accomplishment and purpose but it is no way relaxing.
       | 
       | I am sort of tired of these articles about procrastination, etc
       | that equate like watching a movie and going to the gym or hiking.
       | The activities aren't in the same realm at all. Basically shaming
       | people for sitting around doing nothing with your brain off. I
       | don't think you should be living your life like that all the
       | time, but having an hour or two of straight mindlessness is not a
       | bad thing. Pushing yourself to always be doing the activities you
       | "should" do because some online guru says thats the right way to
       | spend your time leads to burnout too.
        
         | vinay_ys wrote:
         | At some point in life, usually when we see people around us
         | dying of age-related or chronic illness, we start giving
         | importance to our physical health - usually the heart, liver,
         | kidney, joints etc. If we think of the brain/mind as another
         | critical organ, then we should start caring for it similarly
         | but it is hard to spot chronic illness of the mind around us.
         | 
         | Mental health is important - now what constitutes good mental
         | health regime is under considerable debate. But nevertheless,
         | if we care enough to proactively do something about it, it is
         | already better than nothing.
        
         | marginalia_nu wrote:
         | I think it depends on what you consider work.
         | 
         | For a lot of people doing manual labor, learning can absolutely
         | be a leisure activity. It is a refreshing way to relax your
         | tired body while stimulating a restless mind.
         | 
         | If you spend your days in an office, then going to the gym and
         | doing deadlifts may feel like a leisure activity. It conversely
         | allows you to relax your tired mind while stimulating a
         | restless body.
         | 
         | What constitutes relaxation is dependent on what part of you
         | needs to rest.
        
         | agumonkey wrote:
         | Maybe there's a pedagogical setup where learning becomes ..
         | smooth. What's hard is grokking very different and abstract
         | notions in one go. But if someone can walk you slowly through
         | fun smaller instances of it, let your brain adapt (<= maybe 80%
         | of learning) in a happy mood, then come back the day after to
         | do that again. Which puts the pressure on the environment
         | (reminiscent of people saying focus on the process not the
         | results).
         | 
         | Everything can be insufferably hard when approached the wrong
         | way, vice versa.
        
         | peterkelly wrote:
         | > Learning is not a leisure activity
         | 
         | Depends on what you're learning.
         | 
         | My main non-scrolling hobby is music. Parts of learning to play
         | better are hard work that require conscious effort, but the
         | majority of time I spend on it is practice, which I find to be
         | very relaxing and fun. I imagine the same is true for lots of
         | other hobbies.
        
           | Jensson wrote:
           | > Parts of learning to play better are hard work that require
           | conscious effort, but the majority of time I spend on it is
           | practice
           | 
           | If you practice without conscious effort then you aren't
           | practicing, you are just playing and almost surely isn't
           | improving. There is a reason hobbyist stop improving early
           | and then never improve even after years or even decades of
           | practice, it is because they spend their quality focus and
           | effort on their job rather than their hobby and therefore
           | can't improve like professionals who gets paid to focus on
           | it.
        
             | peterkelly wrote:
             | > If you practice without conscious effort then you aren't
             | practicing, you are just playing and almost surely isn't
             | improving
             | 
             | This is true to an extent, but at least with music there's
             | sort of a spectrum of difficult -> automatic (i.e. hard
             | work -> pleasure) as you build up muscle memory.
             | 
             | I played piano for many, many years without making
             | conscious effort to improve, and, like you described, I
             | didn't get any better. Once I decided to get serious and
             | start taking lessons again things changed; it gave me an
             | external incentive to make progress each fortnight and
             | practice daily.
             | 
             | There's an element of it that feels like pressure at first
             | (its easier and more tempting to play something I already
             | know than to work on a new song/exercise), but once I get
             | the basics of it right and enter the phase of repeated
             | practice to improve, that's where the fun part comes which
             | I genuinely enjoy. With a bit of practice it becomes
             | automatic and I can just enjoy the process and experiment
             | with whatever comes into my mind (this is with jazz, not
             | sure how it applies to other genres) I find it an extremely
             | therapeutic experience.
        
         | badpun wrote:
         | > but having an hour or two of straight mindlessness is not a
         | bad thing
         | 
         | I am sorry, but in my mind, if it's only an hour or two per day
         | on average, then you're still a robot.
        
         | ren_engineer wrote:
         | >learning is not a leisure activity
         | 
         | depends on what you are learning, I can casually watch
         | documentaries or YT videos about a topic and still take away
         | some facts with moderate focus when I'm tired after working all
         | day. On the other hand if I'm trying to learn something really
         | technically/conceptually complex I need a fresh mind and full
         | focus on the task
        
         | seaman1921 wrote:
         | I found the article useful, maybe it is not for everyone but I
         | would try to use some of the tips to reduce the mindless
         | surfing time. Eg. today I mindlessly surf for 2 hours, but
         | maybe I do that for 20 minutes and then take a 15 minute walk -
         | that might recharge me the same amount but still give me time
         | to do something healthier or more mindful in the remaining
         | time.
        
         | kqr wrote:
         | And to nobody's surprise, it turns out humans are different
         | from each other. Learning is for me one of the highest forms of
         | leisure. But I know not everyone feels that way.
        
         | stavros wrote:
         | > Learning is not a leisure activity.
         | 
         | I disagree with that. I agree with the rest of your comment,
         | there's nothing wrong with turning your brain off for however
         | long you want, but leisure doesn't have to mean "turning your
         | brain off". I program for leisure because that's what I like to
         | do.
        
           | nivenkos wrote:
           | Do you do it after working for 8 hours though?
           | 
           | I sometimes do it on the weekend, mainly because then I can
           | program in new and more interesting areas. But after work
           | feels impossible, I just don't want to sit in front of the
           | computer still.
        
             | saurik wrote:
             | I definitely tend to spend all my waking hours in front of
             | a computer coding. If I am going to do something other than
             | coding I would prefer to allocate an entire day to it than
             | bother with a coding session that isn't going to benefit
             | from the flow state that comes from coding for 16 hours
             | straight. (Maybe you just hate your job? I work for
             | myself.)
        
               | momirlan wrote:
               | It seems what you do is work, not "mindlessly surfing the
               | internet". No need to worry, carry on.
        
               | badpun wrote:
               | You've been able to sustain this over how many years?
        
               | saurik wrote:
               | FWIW, I turn 40 next month, which is apparently "old" in
               | this field. With the exception of a few months in grad
               | school when I became so utterly demoralized by how all of
               | the software we use on a daily basis is horrible and I
               | quit computers entirely (even doing a "powerpoint
               | presentation" using physical cellophane slides that I
               | carefully drew to look like a stereotypical powerpoint
               | presentation with markers) I have kept up my excitement
               | to use and program computers until the whee hours of the
               | morning for three decades.
        
             | Aeolun wrote:
             | I could easily program after my previous jobs (small teams,
             | relaxed atmosphere), but at my current job (large
             | enterprise, constant crunch) it's impossible.
             | 
             | I'm just mentally done when I come home. I think about
             | programming anything and my brain just screams _No!_.
        
             | stavros wrote:
             | Yeah, I'll regularly finish work and continue programming
             | for a few more hours. I like it a lot.
             | 
             | Not always, of course, but not rarely either.
        
       | a3_nm wrote:
       | I think there are at least three notions of "high-quality"
       | conflated in the article:
       | 
       | - leisure which also satisfies longer-term goals (e.g., listening
       | to an educational podcast, practicing a skill), vs leisure which
       | is only pleasant in the moment
       | 
       | - leisure that you had to make some deliberate effort to initiate
       | and with a clear end time (e.g., going out, going to the movies)
       | vs leisure which starts automatically and ends when it does
       | (e.g., binge-watching)
       | 
       | - leisure that gets you outdoors and/or with other people, vs
       | leisure that doesn't
       | 
       | And of course you can find many kinds of activities along these
       | dimensions. Binge-reading Wikipedia can be instructive even if
       | it's an impulsive behavior and indoors/alone. Sitting down to
       | play a short video game and finish it in a few hours can be
       | actively chosen fun even though it's indoors and only pleasant in
       | the moment. Walking in nature can be pleasant and outdoors but
       | not instructive. Ambient chatting with a friend can be social
       | even if it's indoors and impulsive...
        
       | silhardt wrote:
       | I've been seeing a lot of these sorts of articles recently (time
       | online is ruining your life; here are 17 ways to disconnect), and
       | I have to say I simply reject the premise. Once again, it's
       | binary thinking creeping in and human brains generally being far
       | more receptive to arguments along the lines of "this
       | technology/concept/ideology/whatever is bad and you should reject
       | it" over ones that say "this technology/concept/ideology/whatever
       | is a tool and its value is dependent on how its used and when
       | it's applied".
       | 
       | I've seen the binary thinking problem applied to the
       | internet/online life quite a bit recently, and it bothers me
       | because growing up my experiences of the internet/web were almost
       | overwhelmingly positive, constructive, and developmental in
       | nature. It was instrumental in my development as a person because
       | it's a tool that allows you to read constantly. For people with
       | lots of innate curiosity there really is nothing more powerful
       | than that. The encroachment of the social media/video
       | streaming/adtech companies into the space doesn't negate that use
       | case, so I'm extremely hesitant to say if everyone would just
       | unplug the world would magically be better.
        
         | suketk wrote:
         | While I agree that completely "unplugging" is not the ideal
         | solution, doing so occasionally helps you understand how to use
         | technology intentionally (i.e as a tool, not an escape). You
         | realize what you miss and what you don't, which allows you to
         | reallocate your usage.
         | 
         | What's missing for most people is some structured way to
         | reflect about this, so I created a free* accountability group
         | program [0] that helps them do this alongside others who want
         | to use technology in a healthy way. (Very open to feedback!)
         | 
         | [0] https://themoai.org/intentional-technology
         | 
         | * Free to join, but requires a credit card to enforce financial
         | accountability - we donate money to charity (not us) on your
         | behalf if you don't complete the program. Time commitment is
         | only 15 min/week.
        
         | whytaka wrote:
         | This may seem snarky but you should apply similar thinking to
         | the article itself. It might be written in a certain but you
         | don't have to read it as it's intended.
         | 
         | I've learned, grown, and profited a lot around screens but now
         | I'm looking for hobbies outside screens. While I reject the
         | premise that time spent looking at screens are wasted, this
         | article may help with finding my next hobby.
        
       | yuuu wrote:
       | My hobby is putting spaces before bold tags.
       | 
       | I also get the feeling that the upvotes on this are from blackhat
       | SEO.
        
         | vitabenes wrote:
         | Spaces fixed. Upvotes are regular, people are just interested
         | in the topic.
        
       | quickthrower2 wrote:
       | Mild cfs has freed me from worry about these kinds of
       | optimisations. Day on Reddit? All good.
        
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