[HN Gopher] Privacy fears as Moscow metro rolls out facial recog...
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Privacy fears as Moscow metro rolls out facial recognition pay
system
Author : sofixa
Score : 137 points
Date : 2021-10-15 11:39 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| fuoqi wrote:
| It's not fears, it's the fact that the system is used for
| tracking people and the Facepay capability looks like a simple
| cover for the true purpose of the system: massive scale
| surveillance. The authorities claim that they have apprehended
| more than 900 suspected criminals since the last September with
| the system help. You can imagine how easy it would be to add
| additional "features", if they are not in operation already.
| kgeist wrote:
| If the government wants to apprehend you, a face recognition
| system in the metro is the least of your concerns. They will
| get you anyway, sooner or later. It can only make the life of
| FSB easier, so they can learn about your habits for blackmail
| etc. by just looking at some footage downloaded from a server,
| instead of actually putting some effort
| dane-pgp wrote:
| > how easy it would be to add additional "features"
|
| I suspect the next big milestone planned is to link it to a
| "social credit" score, i.e. an opaque system of extra-judicial
| punishment where the government can hide behind an official
| excuse of "the AI decided" every time a wrong-thinker complains
| about their oppression.
| LudwigNagasena wrote:
| I think that you can "sell" catching criminals to Russians,
| but I don't think the population will accept the social
| credit system.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the next big milestone planned is to link it to a "social
| credit" score, i.e. an opaque system of extra-judicial
| punishment where the government can hide behind an official
| excuse of "the AI decided" every time a wrong-thinker
| complains about their oppression_
|
| Moscow has no qualms about overtly oppressing its opposition.
| What advantage does the ambiguity of such a system bring to
| the table? If anything, Putin's flamboyant campaign of
| pursuing dissidents puts as much emphasis on messaging as
| physical outcome. Softening the message--if you oppose the
| Kremlin, it will hurt you--is counterproductive.
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| Every system of overt oppression has its limits, no matter
| how seemly compliant the population is or how iron fisted
| the current regime may be.
|
| The displays you mention are just that, displays. For
| population scale control you really do need to be more
| subtle and pervasive. Which is what makes this type of
| surveillance so much more insidious.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| It would be quite expensive for the Russian government to
| poison everyone who ever went to a protest, or who
| socialised with the wrong sort of people.
|
| Also, if it's cheap enough, the government can apply low-
| level incentives/nudges at the top of the dissent
| "recruitment funnel" as well as high-level high-profile
| actions against the few brave people who make it all the
| way to becoming leaders of these groups.
| tryauuum wrote:
| I don't believe in capabilities of russian government IT
| services to design such a thing, to be honest
| golergka wrote:
| People have already been arrested after this winter's protests
| with the help of facial recognition, so these fears are a bit
| late. Also, just a couple of days ago it's been announced that
| local Moscow officials turned over all photos uploaded to the
| city's portal to law enforcement to be used for this.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| It's too late for Moscow to care about privacy. It has already
| been eliminated. Lack of option to pay with your face doesn't
| mean the system doesn't watch your face already. I'd be welcoming
| the face pay if I were them because it's just a convenience being
| built on top of the surveillance system already working. Let it
| serve at least one good purpose besides it's actual orwellian
| function they've built.
| splatzone wrote:
| I think this is a bad idea. Welcoming a convenient feature of a
| sinister system just helps justify the system's existence.
|
| This is true of lots of things. Card payments are more
| convenient than cash, sure, but there's a hidden cost behind
| that convenience - your spending is easily traced and tied to
| your individual bank account.
|
| Better to let people see orwellian tech for what it is!
| anyfactor wrote:
| I think it was inevitable that any form progress made in
| computer vision will more or less be applied to perfecting
| facial recognition.
|
| Yes, incredible amount of progress has been made in using
| computer vision to identify diseases but the authoritarian
| and workplace use case of computer vision is absolutely
| effective at present time.
|
| Orwellian tech isn't sudden, it is a creep, it is comfort, it
| is an acceptable cost of convenience.
| zz865 wrote:
| Kinda but I'm guessing the face recognition only works for 90%
| of people so by making it compulsory gets everyone else.
| bserge wrote:
| Time to don the clown makeup, I guess.
| type0 wrote:
| If it continues, in a clown world like this soon you won't
| be allowed to paint a clown face anymore.
| danielodievich wrote:
| Few vignettes about paying for Moscow Metro
|
| During my childhood in 1980ies the cost to ride was 5 kopecks
| (0.05 rouble), payable via hefty, sizeable, incredibly pleasant
| to hold 5 kopecks coin (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%8
| F%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%B...).
|
| With hyperinflation in the late 80ies the costs quickly went up
| by lots of powers of 10 to first roubles, then tens, hundreds and
| eventually thousands of roubles. For a while the entry fee was
| paid via tokens that you bought with money at kiosks, and the
| tokens were identical in weight and size to 5 kopecks, so same
| old machines could be used. Some people who had old soviet coin
| stashes could and did ride for free.
|
| Machines that didn't like the coins would slam you sideways hard.
| I still am instinctively afraid of those that look like one that
| smashed me when I was about 5.
|
| Fast forward to late 90ies and early 2000s, there were single use
| magnetic stripe and rfid tag tickets that were discarded by
| people all over the ground, really messy and likely
| unenvironmental.
|
| Haven't been there in a while but seems like an Oyster
| (London)/Opal (Sydney)/Ventra (Chicago) payment cards would
| likely be what I'd want to use, just as much tracking but without
| the creepy factor of face recognition
| throwawaymanbot wrote:
| A Worm trying to hold on to his domain!
| fernowens wrote:
| Why are they afraid of this one? Smartphones are already
| implementing this feature as a way to unlock the screen. It
| doesn't make sense that they're not batting an eye to that one.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| They feel (incorrectly) like they control their smartphones.
|
| As far as their fears about this being used for privacy
| violations and/or mass surveillance, they are 100% justified.
| The Snowden leaks, as well as what we know from leaks about
| pretty much every major and a lot of minor tech companies, have
| shown that if it _can_ be abused, it _will_ be abused. By the
| state, tech companies, or both.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| > Why are they afraid of this one? Smartphones are already
| implementing this feature as a way to unlock the screen.
|
| Now not only your phone knows your location, you're also being
| filmed all the time with a tag attached and could be traced
| anywhere. This is extremely scary, especially that Kremlin
| persecutes its population into submission. Not only is the
| Kremlin regime anchored deeply (no possible fair elections),
| now this makes it even more impossible to have an alternative.
| Let's say you and a segment of the population wants a different
| leader. Let's say you as dissenters amount to even 70% of the
| population. Your voice won't matter as elections are highly
| rigged. Back in the day you could take out to the street to
| protest and if numbers are too great it sends a clear message.
| But this type of surveillance makes you think twice about it,
| you can go to an unauthorized protest (no authorization would
| be ever given for a dissenting protest) in the morning and be
| arrested in the evening.
| Pr0Ger wrote:
| It was never about surveillance (you already can't escape from
| cameras in Moscow).
|
| They can (and will) use this system to restrict movement for
| "uncomfortable" persons -- turnstile will not open for you if
| government do not like what you said in Twitter.
| bvrmn wrote:
| Opposition is not a target audience of FacePay.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| Meanwhile the US government is gatekeeping the right to earn a
| living with a vaccine mandate...how are we any better? Every
| well-educated liberal voter is racing to implement GATTACA...
| 1cvmask wrote:
| This Facepay scheme humorously brings to mind this biometric
| payment spoof of paying by ass for the Money 2020 conference held
| in Vegas in 2014:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2brZQocmMc
| gmueckl wrote:
| Wait... if the system identifies you as someone else, you get a
| free ride while some other random person is billed for it? How is
| this going to be handled?
| magwa101 wrote:
| "pay system"...nothing without government
| endorsement/control/use/abuse.
| crispyambulance wrote:
| Aside from privacy concerns, which are serious, is anyone else
| surprised that they think it can work efficiently?
|
| I mean, how often will this thing get the facial recognition
| wrong? Will people just end up with metro charges from their
| "lookalikes" (I almost said doppelganger).
|
| Or has the state of the art in facial recognition recently zoomed
| ahead to where this is feasible for such a high throughput
| process?
| cm2187 wrote:
| or fast. You need a fast system at peak hour.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| I found out the other day that it isn't uncommon in some
| countries (China, India) for metro systems to have security
| lines, which to me just sounds like a great reason to drive
| instead.
| mordechai9000 wrote:
| I wonder about the guy at the Houston Astros game recently. The
| FBI got a tip that a long-vanished white collar criminal (John
| Ruffo) was at the game. They located the ticket holder and
| interviewed him to determine he was not the guy after all.
|
| He was reasonably close in appearance, allowing for age
| progression.
|
| So I have to wonder: Was the tip a high probability hit in a
| facial recognition database?
| dkirill wrote:
| They are definitely not doing identification (1:whole_database)
| for payment, that would be ridiculous.
|
| I'm sure they are matching against very small subset. Most
| likely they are getting data from mobile phone operators on
| who's currently around the entrance
| aga98mtl wrote:
| I'm also skeptical it would work decently without something
| else like your cell phone signal to reduce the number of
| possible faces.
|
| I think the real value of this system is the intimidation
| factor. It really pushes the idea that the state can identify
| anyone anywhere is Moscow. It's useful to discourage both
| terrorism and political activism.
| StrLght wrote:
| "Privacy fears" is a bold description. You can't hide from the
| government in Moscow.
|
| They have all data from mobile operators - they know where your
| phone is at all times. They've installed cameras on almost every
| single house entrance. They've been using facial recognition for
| a few years now, with little to no information on sources of data
| they used for this.
|
| It's not about tracking people anymore, it's about improving the
| accuracy of said tracking.
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| Well, this will get interesting if you consider one could buy
| all that info from Russian law enforcement very easily and
| cheaply
| vmception wrote:
| This reminds me how I was noticing similar in Monaco, a
| constitutional monarchy. My conclusion was that if it had poor
| people, then it would be seen as an authoritarian despot. But
| because it does not house poor people or let unhoused stick
| around outside, it is seen as a wealthy place where anything
| goes. It just doesn't encounter strife, but _if it did_ it
| would be seen as authoritarian.
|
| Just an interesting inequality about how jurisdictions are
| perceived.
| [deleted]
| sergeykish wrote:
| I've heard winter protests breakdown in Saint Petersburg was
| much harsher because it's surveillance system is not as
| advanced as in Moscow.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| IIRC they (Rosnano) even developed their own AI chips dedicated
| to image recognition to be incorporated in street CCTV cameras.
| Stuff that Hikvision is also doing but in China.
|
| Scary stuff but I can imagine western governments salivating at
| these capabilities and doing metal gymnastics on what
| justification to spin for the introduction of such systems
| here, as "terrorists" and "think of the children" have been
| used already.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| You mean smart cameras? These exist in the western sphere as
| well.
|
| Your city traffic dept is probably prototyping or rolling out
| this tech already.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> You mean smart cameras? These exist in the western
| sphere as well._
|
| What exactly is _" smart cameras"_? Today, every widget
| that has existed for the last 50+ years is prefixed with
| the word "smart" when it's been added internet access or
| wi-fi control (smart power plugs, smart lights, smart
| doorbells, etc). But from that to being able to host and
| run a real-time NN based image recognition is a long way.
|
| _> Your city traffic dept is probably prototyping or
| rolling out this tech already._
|
| LOL, yeah, if only. I think my city is still running the
| trafic control on some Siemens SCADA system from the '80s.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| Traffic control and monitoring are two different things.
| They probably have sensors tracking movements, but use
| state of the art 80s relay cards to control the system.
|
| "Smart cameras" in this case would be devices with edge
| NN classification built in. But there's always products
| like briefcam / good vision if they only have the regular
| camera feeds.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| This. I recall reading some articles in WSJ and NYT that were
| nearly openly wondering how we could transplant level of
| control exerted in China over population to US. I absolutely
| agree that there are power centers in US that would
| absolutely love to copy what Russia is doing.
|
| In a sense, it is happening already, but in a distributed way
| via Ring spreading like wildfire.
| fouric wrote:
| I'd be interested in reading these articles - would you
| comment or email them to me? (there's no alt contact info
| in your HN profile!)
| webmobdev wrote:
| What makes you think western government aren't already doing
| so - UK was, I believe, one of the first countries to be
| fully covered with camera and they use it extensively in
| policing the country.
|
| 1. Mass surveillance in the United Kingdom - https://en.wikip
| edia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite...
|
| 2. UK public faces mass invasion of privacy as big data and
| surveillance merge - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-
| news/2017/mar/14/public-faces...
| Factorium wrote:
| 'Contact Tracing' for COVID:
|
| https://www.9news.com.au/national/wa-police-stand-by-
| decisio...
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Meh, contact tracing has been pretty much opt-in. There are
| a lot more insidious surveillance technologies being used.
| version_five wrote:
| Whether or not you think current contract tracing
| implementations are benign, it's clear that with covid
| governments have found a magic wand, more powerful than
| children or terrorism, that can be used to wave away
| dissent or constitutional rights "for our safety". Covid
| has been a huge boon to western promoters of the kind of
| privacy invasion your talking about
| ahevia wrote:
| Could you give federal level US examples to this that
| aren't opt-in contact tracing? (Genuine question because
| perhaps I'm missing a major news event)
|
| If anything I've felt my privacy _increase_. Masks are
| finally normalized. What's more private then covering
| half your face and not being weird for being the only
| person doing it? Ive walked by people I know and don't
| even recognize them. If you look back at the Capitol
| Rioters think of how many were identified by not covering
| their face. I also recall the Hong Kong protestors years
| ago using masks & face paint to obscure themselves from
| facial recognition systems.
| 1024core wrote:
| How does it work with face masks?
| White_Wolf wrote:
| Let's hope it doesn't work like it did with The Met.
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