[HN Gopher] Rancher Desktop, a Docker Desktop Replacement
___________________________________________________________________
Rancher Desktop, a Docker Desktop Replacement
Author : emersonrsantos
Score : 605 points
Date : 2021-10-12 03:15 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (rancherdesktop.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (rancherdesktop.io)
| otterley wrote:
| According to the very sparse docs, M1 Mac support is planned but
| not yet implemented.
| Aeolun wrote:
| It has an autoplaying video on the front page?
| chimen wrote:
| Some people are actively looking to be offended.
| justbaker wrote:
| I just don't want autoplaying media. Did I ask for this? No
| seanhunter wrote:
| Set your browser to not autoplay videos if you don't like
| them. THen you never have to see them.
| sureglymop wrote:
| So? Just turn that off in your browser settings.
| nine_k wrote:
| A more reliable way is to tell your browser to never start
| autoplaying videos.
| dpcx wrote:
| Recently we've been suggested to stop using Docker, so I've been
| on the lookout for alternatives. One of the biggest problems we
| have is that some of our in-house tooling is written with Windows
| as an afterthought, and so it's often easier to run things under
| WSL, then through Docker. But the double abstraction makes some
| of our apps _extremely_ slow on those Windows machines. Does
| anyone know if something like Rancher /K3s is any better with
| this regard?
| nickjj wrote:
| > But the double abstraction makes some of our apps extremely
| slow on those Windows machines.
|
| If you keep your files in WSL 2's file system Docker is
| extremely fast. It's nearly as fast as native Linux and even
| apps with thousands of files will reload web servers nearly
| instantly on file change using volumes.
| dpcx wrote:
| Unless there's a way to share the files from Windows in to
| WSL, then I can't do that. We need to be able to edit the
| files from within Windows (people want their VSCode/Sublime
| Text/Notepad++). I've tried to tell them to get Linux
| machines or Mac's, but that doesn't work for everyone either.
| dangelov wrote:
| I use VS Code's native integration with WSL. So VS Code
| runs as a native Windows app with nearly everything you'd
| expect, but the actual files being read/saved are inside
| WSL. Works great with Vagrant, Docker for Desktop, Git etc.
| nickjj wrote:
| Yep, this works really well and for directly accessing
| files in WSL 2's file system from Windows, @lenova's
| sibling comment goes over that process.
|
| To expand on that, I also have this path in my Windows
| explorer "Quick access" list:
| \\\wsl$\Ubuntu-20.04\home\nick
|
| It's a shortcut to my home directory inside of WSL 2 for
| quick access. It's useful in the cases where I want to
| drag / drop a photo or something from Windows into WSL
| 2's world.
| woogley wrote:
| For the VSCode situation, there is a Remote extension by
| Microsoft for editing files that live on the WSL2 side.
|
| For everything else you can just use the network mount to
| WSL2. So the performance hit will be on the editor I/O side
| but not the application runtime.
| lenova wrote:
| > We need to be able to edit the files from within Windows
| (people want their VSCode/Sublime Text/Notepad++).
|
| You can browse directly to the WSL container filesystem
| through Windows by browsing to:
|
| \\\wsl$
|
| Example: click Start --> Run --> "\\\wsl$"
|
| Is that what they're looking for?
| mfer wrote:
| Some of this depends on where your slowdown is.
|
| For example, on Windows you'll likely use NTFS which is a
| slower file system than ext on Linux. Then, NTFS can be mounted
| in which isn't fast. So, filesystem operations though this in
| WSL are going to be slow.
|
| This is just an example and may not be your setup.
|
| Rancher Desktop uses WSL to run Kubernetes and containerd. This
| is similar in setup to Docker Desktop. So, if you have
| performance issues in one setup you're likely to have them in
| the other. And, it may be related to WSL and the VM than to
| either of these apps.
|
| _Disclosure, I work on Rancher Desktop._
| resonious wrote:
| I'm pretty sure Docker on Windows is going to run in a VM no
| matter what. And it's worth noting that running on Docker does
| not have any significant performance difference to running on
| raw Linux in the same environment.
|
| Hate to be "that guy" but if you want speed in a Linux
| environment then just run Linux ;). If you're really stuck with
| Windows and need Docker, I'd say try hyper-v, VMware, etc and
| see which is fastest.
| jrm4 wrote:
| Let me say it; I _love_ to see it. There 's just something that
| strikes me as _harmfully greedy_ about the idea of "Docker, a
| gajillion dollar company." There's just no way that THAT kind of
| service could be tweaked to return that much to stakeholders
| without seriously screwing up the experience for people who need
| it to _just work._
| roughly wrote:
| Is there something I'm missing on the Docker story? Seems like
| they built something that everyone uses as an integral part of
| their workflow, and they're looking to get paid for it, which,
| I may be out of date here, was the entire ethos of this entire
| site for quite some time. Did the founder of Docker kick a
| bunch of puppies or something? Is there some reason I'm missing
| why we should be angry about being asked to pay for something
| that everyone uses for everything and derives a lot of value
| from?
|
| (This isn't to take away from Rancher, by the way - good on
| 'em, I'm all for competition in developer tools)
| elzbardico wrote:
| Some people think developers should always work for free to
| enrich the executive and investing classes. I think that
| making enterprise pay for stuff that matters for enterprises
| while still providing open source for society should be seen
| as a positive, sustainable model.
| varispeed wrote:
| People are generally jealous. Docker feels small enough that
| "anyone could code it over the weekend", and so they think
| there is no way this is worth so much money. Of course nobody
| is trying to actually code something like this over the
| weekend, or once they do they just shut up.
|
| The cognitive dissonance and entitlement with some is just
| funny to watch. They have no problem buying stuff from
| billion dollar companies who treat workers as crap and don't
| pay taxes, but a smaller developer wants to make money off of
| their hard work? Nah...
|
| It's probably because a good chunk of the community is
| composed of privileged people, who never experienced the
| struggle.
| halostatue wrote:
| I'd pay a reasonable amount for a headless docker desktop
| for macOS.
|
| That's not on offer. Instead we get a client that's almost
| as bloated as the Dropbox client.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > something that everyone uses
|
| Thankfully that's not the case. Even kubernetes, that still
| uses containers, moved away from docker.
| brodock wrote:
| the opensource monetization playbook is pretty simple: you
| charge for the higher tier feature that local joe dont need
| but big corporate management/laywer/compliance mandate.
|
| anything from centralized
| authentication/auditing/monitoring/provisioning/reporting to
| checklist certifications gov demands.
| wvh wrote:
| Docker, as the most used container tool, became a utility and
| hence it is expected to be free and unencumbered so it
| remains a helpful tool instead of a hindrance and liability
| to daily development for - well, perhaps the majority of
| developers by now. To try and monetise it would just assure
| that a free and open version will take over; which, I guess,
| is what we see happening now.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| Developers expect to get free tools.
| bayindirh wrote:
| I for one don't expect to _get_ free tools, but expact that
| licensing of something (cough elastic, docker cough) doesn
| 't change overnight in a very hostile manner so I feel
| ripped off.
|
| I for one mostly use GPL or similarly licensed tools for my
| development workflow to be able to make sure my building
| infrastructure doesn't rot, and can be completely
| replicated by someone when I open the code (with a xGPL
| license, no less).
|
| OTOH, I pay for some good developer tools, since they make
| my life easier. However, they're not irreplaceable and
| they're definitely not "code pipeline infrastructure"
| tools.
| brigandish wrote:
| Partly because devs tend to labour under the
| misapprehension that:
|
| a) pretty much any closed source project or online service
| can be done just as well by gluing together parts of open
| source projects...
|
| Which may be true in some cases, but the _real_
| misapprehension is the final part:
|
| b) ...and it won't be difficult to do.
|
| The classic is the HN comment about Dropbox, but I see at
| least one comment a week saying something similar. No doubt
| there are many more.
| sangnoir wrote:
| It's not a misapprehension: selling tools to tool-makers
| requires that you walk a very fine line. A _lot_ of
| closed-source tools have pissed off developers enough to
| be replaced by usually-superior open-source versions,
| e.g. Git replacing BitKeeper because kernel developers
| were not happy with BK.
|
| Outside of very specialized tools, open source tools tend
| to attract more contributors and quickly overtake
| incumbents (see compilers). JetBrains is one of the few
| companies that bucks the trend, and one I gladly give
| money to regardless of my increasing VSCode usage.
|
| Had Dropbox been marketed at developers only, it would
| have been a spectacular failure in a world where inotify,
| rsync, cron and scp already existed.
| pxc wrote:
| > JetBrains is one of the few companies that bucks the
| trend, and one I gladly give money to regardless of my
| increasing VSCode usage.
|
| Large parts of IntelliJ are open-source as well, and
| sometimes they do get used in other open-source editors.
| Afaict they're pretty good citizens in terms of F/OSS.
| motles wrote:
| Can you clarify? Like are people saying that Dropbox is
| easy to replace with OSS? Like ALL it's functionality?
| brigandish wrote:
| This is the (in)famous comment
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 though, as I
| wrote, I don't think it's particularly special, it's just
| the one that gained notoriety. I actually responded to
| one just this week, they're rife.
|
| The optimism bias is a problem even for programmers.
| tpetry wrote:
| It's a reference to this historic comment when dropbox
| was first shown on HN:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
| pjmlp wrote:
| As a developer I pay for tools the same way I expect to be
| paid for my own work.
|
| The tools aren't created in vacuum and the creators also
| have bills to pay, just like I do as well.
| motles wrote:
| Is this true? I know developers that pay for IDEs, managed
| git, jira, and CI/CD services. Developers that use Postgres
| might pay for postico etc.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| Popular tools are free. There are few exceptions, most
| notable one is Intellij Idea, but even Idea seems to be
| eclipsed by VScode lately.
|
| I struggle to remember a single paid Java library I've
| used in the last 10 years. Everything is free.
|
| There was commercial ecosystem around Delphi. Paid IDE,
| paid components. There's paid Lisp IDEs. But it's
| definitely not mainstream today.
| my123 wrote:
| IDEA has an open source edition.
|
| (and of course, don't forget about Visual Studio)
| jayd16 wrote:
| Moving from a freely installed tool to a paid license tool
| changes the workflow. Its a pain in the ass to manage seats.
|
| Not only that, but it was a bait and switch. Lots of people
| are using docker because of the previous licensing rules and
| might have chosen another tool if the new licensing was
| already in place.
|
| I don't fault docker but I can see why people are annoyed and
| looking for a drop in replacement as well.
| detaro wrote:
| People hate it if you take the free toys away, _especially_
| after they 've started using them because they were useful
| and free and now have grown used to them.
|
| + opinions about Docker are generally not universally
| positive, which doesn't help. It's not a niche thing only
| used by superfans, but something that has been promoted and
| pushed widely. Not everybody who uses it likes it, and it's
| more infrastructure than "cool tool".
| stefan_ wrote:
| Then everybody realized Docker was just idiosyncratic
| configuration layered on top of Linux cgroups and if they
| decide to encumber their base software we will just use the
| latter directly. And this is how podman/containerd/... came
| to be.
|
| There are no gifts, Docker isn't owed billions for trying to
| monetize cgroups.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| > Then everybody realized Docker was just idiosyncratic
| configuration layered on top of Linux cgroups
|
| That is true and that is why the Docker runtime is still
| free.
|
| However this is about Docker desktop, which is mostly used
| on Mac and other platforms, where docker actually manages
| virtual machines etc.
|
| And yeah, all software is just a layer on top of moving
| bits around ... some of those layers create value, some
| less.
| guywhocodes wrote:
| There were competitors back then, I remember when docker was
| announced and their huge investment. To a large degree that
| broke us, we could not compete with free. Nor was docker safe
| to bundle in our application, now about a decade later it
| barely would be but at least others have done it now.
|
| To me they are the definition of worse is better, but clearly
| only for a while.
| threeseed wrote:
| Many of us pay for developer tools so it's not a question of
| wanting to monetise their product. It's the way they've done
| it. Constantly harassing people to update their desktop
| versions as a means to drive them to pay is unacceptable.
|
| I have never seen such user-hostile behaviour from an
| established company like this and I for one will never ever
| give them a cent to reward them for it.
| sammorrowdrums wrote:
| They also have an "upgrade" button in docker desktop that
| means purchase, rather than a version upgrade. I understand
| that they aren't the first to call buying a licence an
| upgrade (although I'm not sure you get much software wise
| for doing so to warrant the term), but when you closed the
| update nag screen and then open it, it sort of looks like
| the button is for that.
|
| Chrome for example has update button in similar placement.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > Seems like they built something that everyone uses as an
| integral part of their workflow, and they're looking to get
| paid for it, which, I may be out of date here, was the entire
| ethos of this entire site for quite some time
|
| 1. Not every widely-used tool needs to be a VC-powered
| unicorn startup. I'd be pissed if Linus/the Linux Foundation
| started to demand a per-core licensing fee. I'd probably
| convince my organization to switch to a BSD, on principle.
|
| 2. No one likes a bait-and-switch, and lately, lots of
| companies see Free/Open Source Software as a "growth hack
| technique" rather than an actual philosophy, because they'll
| otherwise face headwinds with a closed-source product. This
| is akin to the underwear gnome strategy: 1.
| Author Open Source product 2. Get wide adoption
| 3. ??? 4. Profit
| manigandham wrote:
| Most widely-used tools are not VC-powered unicorn startups
| and nobody said they needed to be. You're free to create
| all the tools you want, while others can raise money to
| develop theirs.
|
| If open-source helps the product grow and the community
| benefits then what's the problem? Who lost here? And why
| are there headwinds with closed-source products anyway?
| Open-source doesn't mean free, so what's the objection?
|
| Docker the company executed poorly in monetizing their
| product but there's a lot of undue hate compared to the
| value it has created. If you don't like it when it's
| closed-source, and you don't like it when it's open-source,
| then what do you want exactly?
| pjc50 wrote:
| > Open-source doesn't mean free
|
| Counterpoint: yes it does. Hardly anyone pays for
| external open-source products. Managed solutions, yes,
| but we've seen multiple times that trying to close an
| open system so you can charge for it is very unpopular.
| For example, my workplace has a company-wide edict
| against using or even downloading the Oracle JDK.
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| Open source literally means they show you the source
| code. It doesn't have to mean anything beyond that.
| homarp wrote:
| "open source" is by now understood to mean
| https://opensource.org/osd
| pjc50 wrote:
| .. and let you redistribute it. Which implies that
| everyone else can have a copy. And therefore usually the
| binaries.
| type0 wrote:
| it doesn't, that's called _source-available_
| sangnoir wrote:
| Free means free - but if versions 1.0 to X are free today
| and version X+1 is paid tomorrow, that is a bait-and-
| switch. There's no hate here, it's just that I (and any
| competent client company) have no way of knowing if they
| "won't alter the deal any further".
|
| The problem is not with the open-source approach: in
| chasing growth, they commoditized both areas they could
| have monetized - the client and the service. If they had
| charged for either (or both) at first, they wouldn't have
| gained traction, and some other company would have ate
| their lunch.
| manigandham wrote:
| So they commoditized and failed, or they could've been
| commercial from the start and someone else would've
| commoditized it and they still fail. So what? That's the
| point of a startup, they tried to build something and it
| didn't work out as a business model.
|
| The community still benefited greatly from all the
| development and new projects that came from this. And
| what is this other company that would've ate their lunch?
| How would _that_ company survive exactly?
|
| The only objection seems to be the license change, which
| is still free for the vast majority. Only larger
| commercial users have to pay, but that seems commensurate
| with the value they gain from it. Should companies never
| try to alter terms as the market changes? I don't see why
| people are entitled to products and services forever, and
| then hate the company if they try to be sustainable but
| also hate them if they abandon it.
| ratww wrote:
| _> I don 't see why people are entitled to products and
| services forever, and then hate the company if they try
| to be sustainable but also hate them if they abandon it._
|
| Nobody is entitled to anything. Users aren't entitled to
| free services/products in perpetuity, but the other side
| of the coin is that companies also aren't entitled to
| those users. Nor companies are entitled to being free of
| any criticism.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > How would that company survive exactly?
|
| Let me distill my thinking: a tool does not have to be a
| company, or be backed by a single-product company.
|
| IMO,the more successful tools tend to be backed by a
| maintainer & contributors who work on it in their free
| time, or by a consortium of companies that do not
| directly make money from the tool, but are willing to put
| money into it. Docker-like functionality can be replaced
| by such models, so we are not stuck in a perpetual cycle
| of ${ToolName}, LLC
| nhumrich wrote:
| To be fair, docker desktop never was open source.
| halostatue wrote:
| As I understand it, that's not entirely correct, and the
| Docker Desktop we all use and ... well, _just use_ ... is
| built from a number of components that are or used to be
| OSS: Docker, Docker Compose, docker-machine, and Kite,
| amongst others. Granted, Docker Desktop is more polished
| than Kite was, but it's also had years of VC money thrown
| at it so that it's almost as bloated in appearance as the
| Dropbox client.
|
| And that's sort of the problem. I don't want the Docker
| Desktop that exists. I want something that does all of
| the behind-the-scenes stuff that Docker Desktop does and
| gives me a nearly-identical experience to developing on
| Linux even though my preference is macOS. I might even
| pay a _reasonable_ subscription for it.
|
| But the Docker Desktop that is? Not exactly something
| that I think is worth paying for.
| KronisLV wrote:
| The problem with this is that if Docker Inc goes under, you
| can say goodbye to Docker Hub: https://hub.docker.com/
|
| Sure, there are alternative repositories and for your own
| needs you can use anything from Sonatype Nexus, JFrog
| Artifactory, Gitlab Registry or any of the cloud based
| ones, but Hub disappearing would be a 100 times worse than
| the left pad incident in the npm world.
|
| Thus, whenever Docker Inc releases a new statement about
| some paid service that may or may not get more money from
| large corporations, i force myself to be cautiously
| optimistic, knowing that the community of hackers will pick
| up the slack and work around those tools on a more personal
| scale (e.g. Rancher Desktop vs Docker Desktop). That said,
| it might just be a Stockholm Syndrome of sorts, but can you
| imagine the fallout if Hub disappeared?
|
| Of course, you should never trust any large corporation,
| unless you have the source code that you can build the app
| from yourself. For example, Caddy v1 (a web server)
| essentially got abandoned with no support, so the few
| people still using it had to possibly build their own
| releases and fix the bugs themselves, which was only
| possible because of source code availability, before
| eventually migrating to v2 or something else.
|
| Therefore, it makes sense to always treat external
| dependencies, be it services, libraries, even tools like
| they're hostile - of course, you don't always have the
| resources to do that in depth, but for example seeing that
| VS Code is not the only option but we also have VS Codium
| (https://vscodium.com/) is encouraging.
| peterthehacker wrote:
| > Hub disappearing would be a 100 times worse than the
| left pad incident in the npm world
|
| This is really overdramatic. If Docker Inc. went out of
| business and Docker Hub was shutdown then the void would
| be filled very quickly. Many cloud providers would step
| in with new registries. Also, swapping in a new registry
| for your base images is really easy. Not to mention the
| tons of lead time you'd get before docker hub goes down
| to swap them. Maybe they'd even fix
| https://github.com/moby/moby/issues/33069 on their way
| out, so we can just swap out the default registry in the
| config and be done with it.
| KronisLV wrote:
| > Also, swapping in a new registry for your base images
| is really easy.
|
| This is the exact problem! Sure, MySQL, PHP, JDK, Alpine
| and other images would probably be made available, but
| what about the other images that you might rely on, but
| the developers of which might simply no longer care about
| them or might not have the free time to reupload them to
| a new place.
|
| Sure, you should be able to build your own from the
| source and maintain them, but in practice there are
| plenty of cases when non-public-facing tools don't need
| updates and are good for the one thing that you use them
| for. Not everyone has the time or resources to
| familiarize themselves with the inner workings of
| everything that's in their stack, especially when they
| have social circumstances to deal with, like business
| goals to be met.
|
| In part, that's why I suggest that everyone get a copy of
| JFrog Artifactory or a similar solution and use it as a
| caching proxy in front of Docker Hub or any other
| registry. That's also what you should be doing in the
| first place, to also avoid the Docker Hub rate limits and
| speed up your builds, not downloading everything from the
| internet every time.
|
| Otherwise it's like saying that if your Google cloud
| storage account gets banned, you can just use Microsoft's
| offering, while it's the actual data that was lost that's
| the problem - everything from your Master's thesis, to
| pictures of you and your parents. Perhaps that's a pretty
| good analogy, because the reality is that most people
| don't or simply can't follow the 3-2-1 rule of backups
| either.
|
| The recent Facebook outage cost millions in losses.
| Imagine something like that for CI/CD pipelines - a huge
| number of industry companies would not be able to deliver
| value, work everywhere grinding to a half, shareholders
| wouldn't be pleased.
|
| Of course, whether we as a society should care about that
| is another matter entirely.
| [deleted]
| ithkuil wrote:
| Using an abandoned image that nobody cares to update
| carries its own set of problems (e.g security)
| KronisLV wrote:
| As i said, if it's not exposed to the outside world and
| doesn't work with untrusted data, that claim is not
| entirely valid.
|
| Imagine something like this getting abandoned, or someone
| running a year old version of it:
| https://github.com/crazy-max/swarm-
| cronjob/blob/master/READM...
|
| Its only job is to run containers on a particular
| schedule, no more no less. There are very few attack
| vectors for something like that, considering that it
| doesn't talk to the outside world, nor processes any user
| input data.
|
| Then again, it's not my job to pass judgement on
| situations like that, merely acknowledge that they exist
| and therefore the consequences of those suddenly breaking
| cannot be ignored.
| pixl97 wrote:
| If you depend on it, you should keep a local copy around
| that you can host if needed.
|
| Things get abandoned all the time. When you make them
| part of your stack, you now are forever indebted to
| keeping them alive yourself until the point in which you
| free yourself from that burden.
| ithkuil wrote:
| If only we could have a truly distributed system for
| storing content addressed blobs ... perhaps using IPFS
| for docker images. This way you could swap the hosting
| provider without having to update the image references
| wcdolphin wrote:
| I'd love for others with more knowledgeable to chime in,
| since this feels close to the logical end state for non-
| user-facing distribution. At a protocol level, content
| basically becomes a combination of a hash/digest and one
| or more canonical sources/hubs. This allow any
| intermediaries to cache or serve the content to reduce
| bandwidth/increase locality, and could have many
| different implementations for different environments to
| take advantage of local networks as well as public
| networks in a similar fashion as recursive DNS resolvers.
| In this fashion you could transparently cache at a host
| level as well as eg your local cloud provider to reduce
| latency/bw.
| WD-42 wrote:
| Sounds a lot like BitTorrent.
| wcdolphin wrote:
| I'm not super well versed, but I thought BitTorrent's
| main contribution was essentially the chunking and
| distributed hash table. There is perhaps a hood analog of
| the different layers of a docker image.
| WD-42 wrote:
| Isn't this what magnet links for torrent files have
| provided for years? Maybe even a decade?
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme
| NmAmDa wrote:
| VSCodium doesn't add anything other than build VSCode
| source without telemetry and provide real FOSS build of
| VS Code. If VSCode development stopped then VSCodium will
| stop also.
| krageon wrote:
| > Docker Hub
|
| Given that it is extremely trivial to run your own
| container registry, I think the focus on this as some
| great common good is overstated. As it is 99% of the
| containers on it are for lack of a better word absolute
| trash, so it is not very useful as it stands.
| vultour wrote:
| Hub disappearing would be the best thing that happened to
| Docker in years. People really shouldn't be running the
| first result from Hub as root on their machines.
|
| I miss a version of hub with _only_ official images.
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| I doubt a rubber stamp of "officialness" would make the
| situation much better.
| maltalex wrote:
| > The problem with this is that if Docker Inc goes under,
| you can say goodbye to Docker Hub:
| https://hub.docker.com/
|
| So you think that Docker Hub is Docker Inc's entire value
| proposition? And if Docker Inc is nothing more than a
| glorified blob storage service, how much do you think
| should company be worth?
| KronisLV wrote:
| Oh, not at all! I just think that it's the biggest
| Achilles' heel around Docker at the moment, one that
| could have catastrophic consequences on the industry.
|
| It'd be about as bad as that one time when Debian updates
| broke GRUB and my server could no longer boot:
| https://blog.kronis.dev/everything%20is%20broken/debian-
| and-...
|
| Imagine that, but industry wide: - you no
| longer can use your own images that are stored in Hub
| - because of that, you cannot deploy new nodes, new
| environments or really test anything - you also
| cannot push new images or release new software versions,
| what you have in production is all that there is -
| the entire history of your releases is suddenly gone
|
| I don't pass judgements on the worth of the company, nor
| is there any actual way to objectively decide how much
| it's worth, seeing as they also work on Docker, Docker
| Compose, Docker Swarm (maintenance mode only though),
| Docker Desktop and other offerings that are of no
| relevance to me or others.
|
| Either way, i suggest that anyone have a caching Docker
| registry in front of Docker Hub or any other cloud based
| registry, for example the JFrog Artifactory one. Frankly,
| you should be doing that with all of your dependencies,
| be it Maven, npm, NuGet, pip, gems etc.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Docker hub going down would be a disaster for sure, but I
| consider "pull image/library from 3rd party hub over the
| internet on every build" to be an anti-pattern (which is
| considerably worse with npm, compared to docker). That
| said,if this is where the value is being provided,
| perhaps they ought to charge for this service? I guess
| it's difficult because it's easily commoditized.
|
| > but can you imagine the fallout if Hub disappeared?
|
| I _wish_ that would actually happen - not forever - if it
| 'd go down for a day or 2 with no ETA for a fix, and the
| thousands of failed builds/deploys will force
| organizations to rethink their processes.
|
| I think Go's approach on libraries is the way forward -
| effectively having a caching proxy that you control. I
| know apt (the package manager) also supports a similar
| caching scheme.
| lbriner wrote:
| You can already cache dockerhub via the docker repo
| container very easily. In fact, due to the number of
| builds, it would be foolish not to do this to avoid GBs
| of downloads all the time.
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| > but can you imagine the fallout if Hub disappeared?
|
| > I wish that would actually happen - not forever - if
| it'd go down for a day or 2 with no ETA for a fix
|
| Do people not run their own private registry with
| proxying enabled? If Docker Hub went down at this point,
| I think my company would be fine for _months_. Only time
| we need to hit Hub is when our private registry doesn't
| have the image yet.
| Spivak wrote:
| It just never seemed worth the effort when we are paying
| Docker Hub to be our private registry.
| notriddle wrote:
| The problem is that most of the companies that _rely_ on
| the Hub aren't helping it stay afloat.
|
| You are obviously not part of this problem.
| tyingq wrote:
| That sort of happened already when docker started rate
| limiting by incoming IP:
|
| https://www.docker.com/increase-rate-limits
|
| Large orgs started hitting the rate limits since many
| devs were coming from the same ip. Most places probably
| put in a proxy that caches to a local registry.
| treesknees wrote:
| That's what we did, put a proxy in front that caches
| everything. Now that Docker Desktop requires licensing,
| we're going down the road of getting everyone under a
| paid account.
|
| I'm sure Rancher is great for personal desktop use, but
| there's no reason large companies can't pay for Docker.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Or even small. At work, I advised that we just pay for
| Docker Desktop. We got it for free for a long time. Our
| reason for not paying is that we're an Artifactory shop,
| so their Docker Enterprise offering wasn't really
| attractive to us. But we're _easily_ getting $5 /dev/mo
| worth of value out of Docker Desktop.
|
| And I don't really see this as an open source bait and
| switch, either. Parts of Docker are open source but
| Docker Desktop was merely freeware.
|
| That said, I believe in healthy competition, and so it
| _was_ quite worrisome to me that Docker Desktop seemed to
| be the only legitimate game in town when it came to
| bringing containerization with decent UX and cross-
| platform compatibility to non-Linux development
| workstations. So I 'm happy to see Rancher Desktop arrive
| on the scene, and very much hope to see the project gain
| traction. Even if we stay with Docker, they desperately
| need some legitimate competition on this front in order
| to be healthy.
| eecc wrote:
| Community edition and paid Enterprise plug-ins with support
| is a standard pattern in the OSS market.
|
| Not quite bait & switch as you put it, and frankly
| polishing and idiot proofing tools for production workloads
| is expensive, and requires competent professionals that
| definitely need to feed themselves and their family.
| treis wrote:
| Just because everyone does it doesn't mean that it isn't
| wrong and illegal.
| manigandham wrote:
| That's an extreme claim. How is offering community and
| enterprise editions potentially wrong or illegal?
| treis wrote:
| It's usually a full open source solution and then the
| enterprise edition gets introduced later to make money.
| In other words, it's dumping to gain market share and
| then later trying to use the cornered market to extract
| profit.
| manigandham wrote:
| There is absolutely nothing wrong or illegal with
| companies offering new _additional_ products.
|
| You're not cornered when you can freely choose to buy the
| enterprise product depending on whether you get any value
| from it or stick with the open-source version which
| remains available and has plenty of competition (like
| Rancher).
|
| In fact that entire issue with Docker is that they have
| too little value to charge for and too much competition
| to defend against, the exact opposite of dumping to clear
| out the market.
| FPGAhacker wrote:
| > Not every widely-used tool needs to be a VC-powered
| unicorn startup.
|
| Ok, which tools need to be a VC powered unicorn? I'm
| serious.
| sangnoir wrote:
| If CUDA were a startup, it could be a VC-powered unicorn
| (not sure about the deserving, but they'd have decent
| shot at monetization). Unfortunately, my tool knowledge
| is not broad due to the limitations of the few tech-
| stacks I'm familiar with.
|
| Honorable mentions: R and Rust, maybe? But I don't see
| how they'd make the money back (which perhaps is the
| challenge Docker is running into)
|
| edit: Also SQLite!
|
| 2nd edit: I completely misunderstood your question, I
| think. The answer is "none" - there are no tools that
| _need_ to be unicorns, at least for those that are
| downloaded and can be run locally. Those that I listed
| _could_ be.
| nicce wrote:
| They have failed to monetize one of the most important products
| on the web development. They have never provided profits. I
| don't know about the greedy part, it is more about survival at
| this point. That is capitalism.
| code_biologist wrote:
| Both of you are 100% right. Will be interesting to see how
| this seemingly no-win scenario plays out for the ecosystem
| and toolchain, beyond just the Docker products.
| edoceo wrote:
| They block you from even registering your username unless you
| pay $25k to be in the "verified" program. I'm mad they hold
| my name hostage, and I'm not ready to spend $25k
| nicce wrote:
| What do you mean with "hostage"?
| edoceo wrote:
| I mean my name isn't open (on Hub there is no user/edoceo
| page, but one cannot register that name either.
|
| And they say they respect trademark and to open a ticket,
| no response.
|
| But, I can join the verified publisher for only $25,000
| USD.
|
| Not literally hostage but still feels dirty to me.
| krainboltgreene wrote:
| Uh, I have a userpage:
| https://hub.docker.com/u/krainboltgreene
| forty wrote:
| Yeah I have no idea what parent means. We have a company
| branded company namespace on dockerhub with just a dev
| account.
|
| There is indeed this verified publisher program, which is
| crazily expensive and I'm not sure what benefits it
| offers, which is probably the whole explanation of why
| dockerhub is not in a very good place :)
| edoceo wrote:
| I'm saying, my name is blocked unless I pay
| pietromenna wrote:
| And this is how lots of great products and ideas get killed.
| Failing to monetize them.
| Datagenerator wrote:
| Singularity containers not mentioned yet: are unique, they
| don't change on use and can bind mount resources, run
| without root privileges. You can actually execute the image
| files and include them in the well known Unix pipe
| sequences in your favorite shell. Really powerful stuff.
| young_unixer wrote:
| If I was them I would've just sold the company to Microsoft a
| long time ago. I suspect that everyone, including users,
| would be better off that way.
| houseofzeus wrote:
| They missed the boat on this, there were rumors Microsoft
| offered as much as $4bn back in ~2016. Whether that's true
| or not, if there was an exit to be had that was around the
| time it would have been viable.
| nickstinemates wrote:
| A fully integrated docker desktop + vscode would be a game
| changer for all involved. Docker + VSCode is already good,
| but more integration would be way better.
| iofiiiiiiiii wrote:
| I thought this was the next logical step after Windows
| started incorporating containers - for several years you
| saw the two companies get closer together until suddenly
| they no longer seemed to be on speaking terms. Docker
| really missed their opportunity here.
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Doesn't Microsoft already make money from private (read
| enterprise) github docker registries/azure container
| registry while dockerhub is serving free stuff for them?
|
| Enterprise registry is about access control which
| Microsoft knows how to do, they already have enterprices
| in their ecosystem, no?
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Not sure what you mean, Docker and Microsoft collaborated
| closely on Windows containers and Microsoft still
| recommends docker desktop:
|
| https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
| us/virtualization/windowsconta...
| adenner wrote:
| Is there a non docker desktop path forward for windows
| containers on windows 10 machines?
| [deleted]
| Lutger wrote:
| Why? Docker provided a lot of value for free, screwed up their
| own business model and almost went bankrupt before being bought
| for scraps by Mirantis.
|
| Then they _still_ make their technology available for free
| (that 's right, docker is still free and they donated all the
| important stuff) and start asking money for just the wrapping
| and UI stuff in desktop. And just for big corps who can afford
| it. And still they get a lot of flak for it!
|
| These people just can't get a break. I don't understand why a
| lot of people in OSS community hate on them so much. What is up
| with that?
| yzmtf2008 wrote:
| Right, because Rancher Labs is not a gajillion dollar company:
| https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/rancher-labs
| notatoad wrote:
| Rancher already sold.
|
| Suse has a functioning business model and makes money from
| real paying customers who want services in return, not just
| VCs who want more money in return. Docker has a valuation
| without a way to live up to it, which is scary because we all
| have to wonder what awful stuff they're going to have to do
| in order to make enough revenue for their investors to get
| their money back.
| pelasaco wrote:
| even though it's true that SUSE has a functioning business
| model, it worth to mention that SUSE belongs now to
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EQT_Partners, a global
| investment organization, and they (EQT) are probably aiming
| just for a nice exit.
| V99 wrote:
| ...and that also already happened, in the form of an IPO
| in Germany: https://www.google.com/finance/quote/SUSE:ETR
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| "Docker, a gajillion dollar company" - LOL they barely get
| along.
|
| While I love Docker as a dev tool putting all strings into your
| hand to juggle customer environments, I fail to see the use
| case of Docker on Macs and Windows, which I'm understanding
| what Docker desktop is about. After all, docker images are
| about saving the resources/memory for a full VM and using Linux
| kernel-level compartments instead.
| slotrans wrote:
| "After all, docker images are about saving the
| resources/memory for a full VM and using Linux kernel-level
| compartments instead."
|
| That's not what container images are for.
|
| Container images give you a self-contained deployment
| artifact. The rest is marketing BS.
| bdamm wrote:
| It's awfuly handy being able to pop open little recipe OS
| configs while using my Mac.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| I develop on my Windows machine and I use Docker for testing.
| We have a a microservices architecture in production and
| using Docker is easier and less messy to run locally parts of
| our infrastructure such as Postgres, Redis, Consul, Nats and
| some of the needed microservices instead of using VMs.
| disordinary wrote:
| Development.
|
| When you're developing in a container you can guaranty that
| the environment is the same on your PC or in the cloud.
|
| Also, the same argument you had for shared resources in
| Linux, when you're running Linux on a VM locally on your
| desktop because you want linux tools or applications, then
| you want as much memory management as possible.
| komarlaheight wrote:
| rancher is a good platform overall.
| https://www.brigadekomarlaheights.net.in/
| softveda wrote:
| It seems to be a kubernetes replacement that comes with Docker
| Desktop. But what are the steps to just build and run a simple
| Dockerfile? An example would have been good.
| hnbad wrote:
| The video demonstrates it, using the "nerdctl" CLI which seems
| to be API equivalent to the docker CLI but understands k8s
| namespaces (thus hiding the k8s containers by default).
|
| I agree that having an example in writing would have been
| helpful.
| GordonS wrote:
| Any idea if nerdctl can run Compose services and Swarm
| stacks?
| hnbad wrote:
| The video doesn't demonstrate that and instead pivots to
| talking about k8s. I don't know.
| regularfry wrote:
| Nerdctl claims to be able to run `docker-compose.yml` files
| as a drop-in replacement. How true that is (and how volume
| mounts work, if at all) I don't know.
| passwert wrote:
| A bit off topic, but does anyone know what tool the author uses
| to display the stats at the top of the terminal?
| jm547ster wrote:
| It's the iTerm2 built-in status bar:
| https://iterm2.com/3.3/documentation-status-bar.html
| passwert wrote:
| Oh, I missed this feature. Thank you very much!
| xpressvideoz wrote:
| I was amazed by the news at first, but seeing it again, it
| doesn't seem to be a direct replacement of Docker Desktop. It
| makes use of K3s under the hood, which is lighter than a full-
| blown Kubernetes, but still quite heavy. My nearly empty K3s
| cluster is consistently consuming ~10% CPU time on my local
| machine. This is not acceptable to me, so a proper replacement of
| Docker Desktop should be more lightweight.
| GordonS wrote:
| Ach, the title seems to be mis-selling it.
|
| Docker Desktop is all about Docker, Compose and Swarm, and has
| Kubernetes functionality built on top as an extra. Rancher
| Desktop seems to be all about Kubernetes - can it even run
| standalone Docker containers, or Compose/Swarm services?
|
| EDIT: answering my own question - I checked the nerdctl GitHub
| page, and it states that not only is Swarm not supported, but
| it will not be. So Rancher Desktop is unfortunately _not_ a
| drop-in Docker Desktop replacement for everyone :(
| chupasaurus wrote:
| Swarm is a cluster solution made on top of Compose so it
| isn't useful on a local machine.
| GordonS wrote:
| It's _very_ useful on a local machine if you 're using
| Swarm in production, as Swarm supports some additional
| things that Compose doesn't.
| chupasaurus wrote:
| The differences are:
|
| - Replicas: could be made with YAML templating
|
| - Update/rollback policies other than stop-first, _very_
| useful on a local machine?
|
| - Resource limits: stayed in v2 to sell Swarm, although
| there's _cgroup_parent_ which has to be created manually
| GordonS wrote:
| There are yet more differences.
|
| For example, Swarm supports `configs`, while Compose does
| not - and I use `configs`, and would much rather not have
| to have separate service definitions for dev and prod to
| work around such insufficiencies.
| rvdmei wrote:
| It also comes with nerdctl (docker compatible cli). It
| interacts with containerd directly and is a drop-in replacement
| for docker cli.
| xpressvideoz wrote:
| Oh that's nice, would it be possible to run containerd only,
| without running any Kubernetes controllers? I suspect the
| controllers are the root cause of the huge resource
| consumption, because they are constantly checking for the
| system components and trying to reconcile them.
| chucky_z wrote:
| Yep! If you're on MacOS check out Lima, it's a project by
| Akihiro Suda who is one of the main contributors to nerdctl
| (and the original author iirc)
| rvdmei wrote:
| Rancher Desktop macOS version is based on Lima.
| varispeed wrote:
| I wish Rancher didn't adopt Kubernetes. Their Cattle was perfect
| for running distributed services on bare metal. It was simple and
| just worked. After the move to k8s I couldn't get anything to
| work and it was flaky. I am still running some projects on Cattle
| and they have few years uptime.
| V99 wrote:
| (Early employee)
|
| We liked 1.x/cattle as much as the next person but it was clear
| 4 years ago that k8s was going to win the mind-share & market.
|
| Competing with that was a slow and painful path to irrelevance.
| Which was the path Mesos chose, along with Docker/Swarm to a
| large degree.
|
| (Please stop running 1.x, especially if exposed to the
| internet; it hasn't been updated in ~3 years now and everything
| up and down the entire stack it supports are going to be full
| of CVEs.)
| cbushko wrote:
| I did not see it mentioned anywhere but does this have the same
| performance problems as Docker Desktop for Mac?
| pojntfx wrote:
| And with Linux support! Awesome!
| TeeWEE wrote:
| At my current company we started moving our setup to k8s... And
| using docker-compose required another deployment platform.
|
| So end 2019 we started using k3s... But developers complained
| about heavy resource usage, and slow startup time.
|
| So in the end we moved back to docker-compose... This means our
| local dev environments are NOT the same as our k8s prod clusters.
|
| But if this works well, and k3s is more lean. It could unify our
| infra stack across developer machines, to production. Same
| tooling everywhere...
|
| Love it
| midrus wrote:
| From my experience, trying to boot up the entire platform on
| developer's laptops (or remote cloud servers) for each
| developer is something doomed to fail and cause pain, whatever
| you use.
|
| My best experience so far, has been to start services
| individually, and work with mocks and tests. And do integration
| on a shared staging environment or, even better, have a way to
| deploy multiple versions to the same env (like you can do with
| App Engine, Vercel, etc).
|
| I hope I never ever again have to work at a place where I need
| to replicate the entire platform for my development
| environment.
| pqb wrote:
| Recently, I found Tilt [0] to be a good partner of mine to run
| "all services locally". It can be compared to "webpack for
| backend" (live-reloading, a lot of configuration possibilities
| [1]). Tilt uses Titlfiles for configuration, which are written
| Pythonish Starlark language and you use them to write any
| specific logic there. You want to run a bunch of services
| directly? Use local_resource()/local(). You have Procfile?
| There is procfile() function. You have a docker-compose.yml
| with services like databases? You can run it too with
| docker_compose(). You want to separate your Tiltfile on
| multiple files and include them all-together on tilt-up
| command? There is load()/load_dynamic(). You need some web-ui
| for frontend devs and a nice log browser? It is there too. You
| want to update your local cluster with newly built image on
| file save? No problem, tilt will do that with k8s_yaml()
| function. You need to do some extra steps before running a
| service (e.g. data seeding)? Use aforementioned
| local()/local_resource(). You need a sample project that uses
| tilt? Sure, there is some tutorial for C# [2]. Do you use jib
| instead of docker-build? Here it is [3].
|
| Also, I am not very lucky in having resemble 1:1 k8s cluster
| locally. You could be close, but as long as you run in the
| cloud you will have different configuration on local
| (additional annotations, various quirks that do not exist in
| kind/k3s but they are on GCP). However, making dedicated dev
| environments in the cloud might be very costly and incur a lot
| of additional tinkering.
|
| [0]: https://tilt.dev/
|
| [1]: https://docs.tilt.dev/api.html
|
| [2]: https://docs.tilt.dev/example_csharp.html
|
| [3]: https://github.com/tilt-dev/tilt-example-
| java/blob/master/10...
| tbronchain wrote:
| Really nice to see a bit of competition in here!
|
| Slightly unrelated but also, from the same company, Rancher
| (their main product) has been really good to deploy bare meal
| Kubernetes setup [almost] 100% container based.
| nweiler wrote:
| Is this related to Rancher, make of the k8s mgmt platform by the
| same name? I don't see any reference to it on their official
| website.
| mcdevilkiller wrote:
| There's this on the bottom
|
| >(c) 2021 SUSE. Rancher Desktop is an open source project of
| the SUSE Rancher Engineering group.
| jacurtis wrote:
| Yes, it is the same company. Which is now part of SUSE. From
| the footer:
|
| > (c) 2021 SUSE. Rancher Desktop is an open source project of
| the SUSE Rancher Engineering group
|
| It is strange that they don't make it super clear. But it is
| briefly mentioned in the top video on the hero section of the
| page.
| dt3ft wrote:
| For those wondering what the difference between k3s and k8s is:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmLna7tHDRc
| nhoughto wrote:
| Good to see people stepping in after the docker desktop change,
| things I care about:
|
| - transparent networking, i want to access kube services on
| 127.0.0.1, i'd rather not run a proxy/manage things myself -
| access to containerd socket to use non-rancher tooling, for image
| building etc.
|
| early days for this project, i'll have to spin it up and see how
| it goes!
| gitgud wrote:
| It says it only runs on Windows and Mac?... The top 2 platforms
| which run docker horribly...
| shagie wrote:
| I would urge you to compare this to Docker Desktop -
| https://www.docker.com/products/docker-desktop
|
| > Docker Desktop is an application for MacOS and Windows
| machines for the building and sharing of containerized
| applications and microservices.
|
| The "desktop" part of each refers to "systems other than
| linux."
|
| You can run rancher on a linux machine just as you can run
| docker on a linux machine - without the "desktop" part of it.
| As I understand it, the "desktop" nature of it is the glue
| between running a virtual machine on a non-linux system and the
| underlying virtual magic.
| eddieroger wrote:
| What is horrible about Docker on a Mac? I've never had a
| problem with it, and use it regularly as my daily driver OS for
| development of apps that get deployed as containers.
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| Not GP, but for me performance is absolutely abysmal compared
| to just using podman in opensuse microos virtual machine
| (what I'm using now instead of docker).
| wejick wrote:
| Whatever Docker thought when changing the license and pricing of
| docker desktop, they're not considering long enough about the
| impact of the alternative. It's just about time for the same or
| better quality replacement to come. At the end, docker relevance
| in developer machine will be less and less overtime.
| johnebgd wrote:
| Agreed. They should have just sold ads for the unpaid edition
| users to tolerate.
| bootlooped wrote:
| Where would the ads be displayed? I almost never open the
| Docker Desktop application itself. It starts up automatically
| and mostly does what it's supposed to do. I connect to it
| through the command line.
| xanaxagoras wrote:
| Would have been the same move in my book, I wouldn't have
| tolerated that.
| KronisLV wrote:
| Dropping by to express healthy interest in this project.
|
| Rancher have a pretty good track record so far: -
| the Rancher platform itself (https://rancher.com/) is a really
| powerful and user friendly way to manage container clusters of
| all sorts, giving you a self-hosted dashboard for both your cloud
| and on prem clusters, for a variety of Kubernetes distributions;
| you can even manage the available drivers and also create
| deployments graphically - the K3s distribution
| (https://k3s.io/) is in my eyes one of the best ways to run
| Kubernetes yourself, both in development environments and
| production ones. I benchmarked K3s alongside Docker Swarm as a
| part of my Master's thesis and it was surprising to see that its
| overhead was actually very close to that of Docker Swarm (a more
| lightweight orchestrator that's included with Docker and uses the
| Docker Compose format), only exceeding it by a few hundred MB
| with similar deployments being active, making K3s passable for
| small nodes
|
| As for this particular project, it's very positive to see that it
| supports all of the big OSes, even though the 0.6.0 version tag
| would still advise caution for a while, even though it can
| definitely be considered as a replacement for Docker Desktop.
|
| Admittedly, it's also nice to see that Docker and the ecosystem
| around it is still supported and is alive and kicking, since for
| many projects out there it's a perfectly serviceable stack with
| tools that a lot of people will be familiar with, as opposed to
| having to migrate to podman, while it's still becoming more and
| more stable, yet isn't quite there yet. Now, that may be a
| controversial take, and Docker Inc also have their fair share of
| challenges, about which there was a very nice writeup here:
| https://www.infoworld.com/article/3632142/how-docker-broke-i...
| TobTobXX wrote:
| Also there's k3d (k3s in Docker). It lets you run all kinds of
| k3s clusters on the desktop with just a simple command. Great
| way to test your k3s deployments.
| supermatt wrote:
| Looking over k3s and it really pushes the IoT/embedded aspect.
| Any comments on what makes it different to a server-oriented
| k8s solution? Why wouldnt I run it on servers?
| pionar wrote:
| At my job, we use k3s not for IoT or embedded, but for
| deployment to back-office "servers" in field offices for
| deployments of services that don't need HA in that
| environment.
| mfer wrote:
| k3s, by default, uses sqlite for storage instead of etcd.
| This is one of the ways you can get a performance
| improvement.
|
| If you are going to run a cluster you're likely going to want
| to have your database be an HA cluster. While k3s can support
| other databases, like PostgreSQL, it doesn't have handling
| for clusters in the config.
|
| This is a limitation I see for k3s in clusters, right now.
|
| I would love to see cluster handling in k3s. etcd can be a
| scaling bottleneck and replacing it with PostgreSQL could
| help it scale much higher.
|
| _Disclaimer, I work on Rancher Desktop which uses k3s_
| zaphirplane wrote:
| Assuming k8s still uses watch on etcd keys how is that
| implemented for SQLite ? I suppose polling is possible way
| if it's low tps desktop focused
| h3h3 wrote:
| yes looks to be polling https://github.com/k3s-io/kine/bl
| ob/master/pkg/server/watch....
| skrtskrt wrote:
| As someone using k3s on a single node right now, could you
| clarify/expand on "it doesn't have handling for clusters in
| the config"?
| KronisLV wrote:
| I guess for the most part it's just marketing, since it's a
| good fit for IoT as well, you can definitely run it on
| servers as well, as i am doing!
|
| What makes it different from other K8s distros is listed
| here: https://rancher.com/docs/k3s/latest/en/
|
| And here's an architecture overview:
| https://rancher.com/docs/k3s/latest/en/architecture/
|
| At a glance: - by default packaged as a
| single binary, so is extremely easy to install, even uses
| SQLite for storage (though that can be swapped out for others
| as well) - includes the functionality that you'd
| expect, like local storage, load balancing, ingress, while at
| the same time getting rid of some of the unnecessary plugins
| that you'd get in other distros - as a consequence of
| the above, has a small runtime footprint, so running K8s
| clusters on VPSes with 2 to 4 GB of RAM is no longer a pipe
| dream, also has way less overhead on the actual nodes that
| you want to manage (think along the lines of a few hundred
| MB) - also includes a variety of tools with it for
| managing your cluster more easily, so you don't need to
| install those separately
| skrtskrt wrote:
| I noticed k3s is snappy and responsive on a $5 DigitalOcean
| VM, whereas full k8s really bogs down on such a small
| machine
| gloriousternary wrote:
| I'm running it on an Oracle Cloud Free Tier server, it's nice
| because the 1Gb of ram they include is less than the
| requirement for k8s but plenty for k3s
| hardwaresofton wrote:
| They've also got Longhorn, a distributed container-attached
| storage solution that's very simple to understand and easy to
| deploy. Performance is another thing but that's the same with
| all of the general networked storage solutions (Ceph included).
|
| Rancher's got a well deserved good impression in my mind,
| though early on I avoided them somewhat.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/longhorn/longhorn
| remram wrote:
| More than performance, I am worried about security. They
| don't seem to have considered it at all when building it:
| https://github.com/longhorn/longhorn/issues/1805
|
| Probably not a good recommendation until this hole is
| plugged.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Wasn't it the code name for Vista ?
| stib wrote:
| Yes, but a different Longhorn. The early 00s Windows
| codenames all had a PNW skiing theme, and that Longhorn is
| a well-known bar at the base of Whistler mountain.
| rightbyte wrote:
| > Admittedly, it's also nice to see that Docker and the
| ecosystem around it is still supported and is alive and kicking
|
| When the controlling organization is starting to go down the
| user hostile route (e.g. payed update opt-outs), it is more or
| less sad to see that the Docker is alive and kicking.
| Developers should ran away as fast as possible.
| elzbardico wrote:
| I see it as a legitimate way to pay programmers. You still
| have the core functionality, but the kind of features that
| the enterprise likes is paid and supports the development of
| open source. Why should everyone work for free to enrich the
| Kleiner Perkins of the world?
| mindrunner wrote:
| any chance we could look at your thesis when it is done? :)
| KronisLV wrote:
| I finished it about a year ago, but due to reasons outside of
| my control (administrative decisions), i had to write it in
| my native language, Latvian, so it's probably a tad useless
| to a wider audience.
|
| In case anyone desires to mess around with PDFs and machine
| translation: - research praxis:
| https://files.kronis.dev/s/AJRCs84D7WngLzD -
| development praxis:
| https://files.kronis.dev/s/Xz6mtbAamoA7Pe8 - the full
| text: https://files.kronis.dev/s/ioiW96dpnD5YcLk
|
| Here's a tl;dr summary of what i did during it: essentially i
| set out to improve the way applications are run within the
| infrastructure of the company that currently employs me. To
| achieve that, i researched both the ways to utilize systemd
| services for everything as well as improve configuration
| management with Ansible, later introduce containers into the
| mix and compare their orchestrators (Docker Swarm and K3s in
| this case), as well as how to manage them, in this case, with
| Portainer. Then, after finishing that stuff up for the
| company, i proceeded with some further research of my own,
| into whether it's feasible to develop bespoke server
| configuration management tools and to integrate them with
| container management technologies, as well as do further
| benchmarks on how well the orchestrators actually handle
| containers running under load, since this doesn't often get
| tested.
|
| There are probably a few reasons for those choices:
| - at work, it was really disappointing to see environments
| where servers are started manually - similarly, in the
| current day and age it's not acceptable to keep domain
| knowledge about how to start services and where the
| configuration is to yourself - manual configuration
| management simply increases the risks of human error greatly,
| especially due to turnover - in contrast, containers
| are a surprisingly usable way to introduce "infrastructure as
| code" - that said, their orchestrators still need a lot
| of work and it's probably a good idea to compare them -
| i was also curious to see whether it would be hard to create
| my own automation tools like Ansible, but executing remote
| Bash scripts through SSH - lastly, i was a participant
| in the development on https://apturicovid.lv/ which was a
| Latvian COVID contact tracing solution; i was curious about
| the choice of using Ruby, so i wanted to create my own mock
| system to see how it'd perform under load in a real world
| scenario, with tools like K6s https://k6.io/
|
| More importantly, i wanted to see how much load a GPS based
| approach (as opposed to Bluetooth) with PostGIS would
| generate and whether Ruby would still be okay, as described
| on my blog https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/covid-19-contact-
| tracing-wi...
|
| And, without further ado, here's my findings:
| - if you're not using Ansible or another alternative for
| managing the configuration of your environments, you should
| definitely look into it - if you can't or don't want to
| run containers, at least consider having systemd services
| with environment config files on your servers - Docker
| Swarm and the lighter distributions of Kubernetes, like K3s
| are largely comparable, even though Kubernetes takes a little
| bit more resources - tools like Portainer can make
| managing either or both of them a breeze, since it's one of
| the few solutions that support both Docker, Docker Swarm and
| Kubernetes clusters - despite that, you'll still
| probably want to configure your applications (e.g. HTTP
| thread pool sizes, DB pool sizes) and introduce server
| monitoring or APM into the mix - as for Python, it's
| pretty good for developing all sorts of solutions, even for
| remote server management: with Paramiko (for SSH), jsonpickle
| (serialization), Typer (CLI apps) and other libraries -
| for my tool, i used JSON as an application data format, so
| one command could pipe its JSON output (e.g. returned tokens
| from cluster leader server for follower servers) as an input
| for another; there are few cases where this can work, but
| when it does, it is pretty nice - that said, any such
| tool that you write will probably just be a novelty and in
| 90% of the cases you should just look at established
| solutions out there - load testing is actually pretty
| feasible with tools like K6s, but only as long as you just
| want to test Web APIs - anything more complex like that might
| be better tested with something like a server farm running
| instances of Selenium
|
| Here's a few Git repos of the projects: - A
| very simple COVID infection tracking system which generates
| heatmaps to attempt to preserve anonimity:
| https://git.kronis.dev/rtu1/kvps5_masters_degree_covid_1984
| - The K3s benchmarks for it: https://git.kronis.dev/rtu1/kvps
| 5_masters_degree_covid_1984_load_test - The Python
| configuration management tool: https://git.kronis.dev/rtu1/kv
| ps5_masters_degree_astolfo_cloud_servant
|
| Oh, and here's a test environment for the mock system that
| shows the generated heatmaps, you'll need to press the
| "Start" button to preview the data, though you can change the
| visualization parameters at runtime:
| https://covid1984.kronis.dev/
| stavros wrote:
| Shameless plug, I had the exact same problem with wanting
| to deploy some apps to a server (either home, on production
| at work, or IoT/Raspberry Pis), and I didn't like any of
| the options (Ansible is too dependent on the machine's
| state, Kubernetes is too complicated and heavy), so I wrote
| 200 lines of code and made this, which I love:
|
| https://gitlab.com/stavros/harbormaster
|
| It basically pulls the repos you specify and runs `docker-
| compose up` on them, but does it in an opinionated way to
| make it easy for you to administrate the machines.
| giobox wrote:
| Docker compose doesn't get the love it deserves. The most
| recent versions even dropped requirement to specify the
| schema version, it's a beautifully compact way now to
| describe services and their relationships.
|
| I have used docker-compose for my one man projects for
| years, removes any need for me to remember any kind of
| specific deployment steps for a given project. One of the
| biggest time savers in my entire career.
|
| At last they are finally bringing the functionality into
| the core docker CLI with a native "docker compose" (not
| docker-compose) command - why that took until 2020 I have
| never understood, can only assume internal politics. If
| compose had been integrated sooner maybe adoption would
| have been wider.
|
| I've actually come across your project before and keep
| meaning to try it for my PiHole/HomeAssistant/WireGuard
| setup etc, will check it out!
| KronisLV wrote:
| It's always nice to see Docker Compose and tools that are
| built around it, same way as with Swarm!
|
| Here's a few other that occupy a similar space:
| - https://caprover.com/ - https://dokku.com/
|
| Now, if only functions as a service got a bit more love,
| then things would be really interesting!
| stavros wrote:
| I use Dokku and like it a lot, but the automatic ingress
| complicated things a bit, and I couldn't easily have more
| elaborate setups like with Docker Compose. However, if
| you need a Heroku alternative, I wholeheartedly recommend
| it.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| What's new is that their new preview release adds Linux
| support[0] as a "preview". This still isn't mentioned on the main
| site linked above nor in the main github README yet :)
|
| [0] https://community.suse.com/posts/rancher-
| desktop-v06-includi...
| xyst wrote:
| what happened to podman
| up_o wrote:
| Been using it on wsl2 with Ubuntu 21.04
| alwaysanon wrote:
| I talked about this in a recent blog post on transitioning away
| from Docker Desktop - https://jason-umiker.medium.com/replacing-
| docker-desktop-wit...
| judge2020 wrote:
| Podman also has a docker desktop alternative in the works
| (Already works on Mac IIRC)[0]. Will be interesting to see how
| these two solutions play out.
|
| 0: https://github.com/containers/podman/issues/11494
| [deleted]
| jacurtis wrote:
| Just so people know, if you use Cockpit on Linux, You can add
| podman support and it essentially provides a Podman GUI.
|
| This works today, and works very well.
|
| https://github.com/cockpit-project/cockpit-podman
| up_o wrote:
| I've been using podman on wsl2 as my docker desktop replacement
| _mostly_ painlessly since the news of docker desktop's
| licensing changes.
| tiew9Vii wrote:
| I tried Podman on OSX. It was easy to set up but the deal
| breaker was no bind mounts. I'm sure that functionality will
| come but for dev purposes it's not a Docker Desktop replacement
| on OSX just yet.
| denysvitali wrote:
| Yes exactly. I found that lima + docker are the perfect
| solution for me, in terms of user experience.
|
| When podman will fix this issue (with sshfs like lima does?)
| I'll return to it
| coredog64 wrote:
| Last time I tried, podman didn't work on M1 because of a
| missing upstream patch. I have been able to make Lima work
| directly out of Homebrew without compiling anything locally.
| hpaavola wrote:
| Does it support volume mounts from Windows and macOS to
| containers?
| k__ wrote:
| Half-OT: I saw many "run Linux in the browser" projects. Does
| anyone know if there is a project to run a container on WASM?
| theprestigec wrote:
| The prestige metropolis is a mixed development township that
| spans over one hundred eighty acres land acreage to encompass
| unbiased groups for residential plots and top rate residences.
| https://www.prestigecity.gen.in/
| https://linktr.ee/theprestigecityvilla
| https://www.folkd.com/user/theprestigecityvilla
| https://issuu.com/theprestigecityvilla/docs/the_prestige_cit...
| nsonha wrote:
| why do I keep seeing the promotion of tools that require QEMU to
| run like it's no problem?
| hnbad wrote:
| Do you have licensing concerns? Because they at least claim the
| tool works fine on macOS and WSL2, so I don't see an obvious
| technical issue.
| callahad wrote:
| What's wrong with requiring qemu?
| nsonha wrote:
| It emulates the entire hardware stack so it's even slower
| than virtual machines which in turn are slower than docker on
| linux.
| regularfry wrote:
| Only if it's rather oddly configured. It _can_ emulate the
| entire stack, but it doesn 't have to as long as your guest
| and host architectures match.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| What is the WSL2 integration story here ?
|
| That's one of the most important usecases on windows going
| forward.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| As mentioned in the linked page: "Windows Subsystem for Linux
| v2 is leveraged for Windows systems. All you need to do is
| download and run the application."
|
| The graphic under that quote shows containerd and k3s running
| under WSL2 talking to Rancher desktop.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| ah cool. i didnt understand the language. oops.
| pjmlp wrote:
| > Rancher Desktop is an electron based application....
|
| Oh, well. I guess they copied everything that was "good" then.
| rtpg wrote:
| I've seen a couple projects around this, are any of them also
| tackling the docker-compose-based workflows as well? Or will that
| stuff work transparently with these replacements as well?
| jhot wrote:
| Haven't tried this yet but it mentions using nerdctl which does
| support compose.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| There was a recent HN post about minikube as a drop-in relacement
| for Docker Desktop. FWIW I spent some hours digging into minikube
| and learned a bunch but hit a wall with some networking stuff and
| tabled it. Stoked to give Rancher Desktop a try, bc even tho
| Docker Desktop serves my needs for now, it is a resource hog and
| I'd be stoked for a good alternative.
| crucialfelix wrote:
| I actually just switched from k3d back to minikube the other
| day. Both are great, but have some little problems that block
| me for hours. They are both moving in the right direction
| though.
|
| k3d/k3s starts up fast and feels minimal. I still have problems
| building docker images and pushing them into the cluster.
|
| Minikube solves this well: ``` minikube image build . -t
| localhost:5000/myapp:latest minikube image push
| localhost:5000/myapp:latest ```
|
| I will be very happy when one of these runs locally without
| com.docker.hyperkit running 70% CPU even while idle.
| neximo64 wrote:
| No update nags!
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| If you want to install the Windows release[0] silently in a
| script, then use this (where X.Y.Z is the version number):
| .\Rancher.Desktop.Setup.X.Y.Z.exe /S --force-run --allusers
|
| It took me an hour to figure out the necessary arguments until I
| learned about some Electron-specific behavior in the
| installer[1].
|
| [0] https://github.com/rancher-sandbox/rancher-desktop/releases
|
| [1] https://stackoverflow.com/a/66906851
| throwaway10122 wrote:
| One main use for Docker we have is running integration tests on
| local docker compose containers and/or using testcontainers
| library
|
| Can rancher solve this usecase?
| shelajev wrote:
| I don't think it runs Docker. You can run minikube and use it
| for Docker workloads, which should work with testcontainers.
|
| https://minikube.sigs.k8s.io/docs/commands/docker-env/
| fithisux wrote:
| Moved to docker in Virtualbox for my manual / integration testing
| on Mac and never looked back. Now I'm looking at minikube.
|
| Not very convenient, but not a show - stopper.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| I immediately got a good impression of their service because
| their home page loads so fast.
|
| I'm a simple man.
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| Unfortunately, without Windows Container support, I can't
| consider this full a replacement for Docker Desktop.
| leighmcculloch wrote:
| Rancher's, and Podman's, efforts on Mac are exciting, but you can
| also just run the Docker daemon in a VM on Mac and install the
| free docker CLI using homebrew. This is what I do using
| Canonical's Multipass to create the VM. I wrote a simple script
| that makes it a simple `dockerhost create`.
| https://github.com/leighmcculloch/dockerhost
| mwaitjmp wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. Does this also support volumes and setup
| port mapping for local host?
| leighmcculloch wrote:
| No port mapping, the ports are available on the IP of the VM.
| Volume mounts are supported by multipass, but dockerhost
| doesn't set them up automatically, yet!
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