[HN Gopher] U.S. Tech Salaries Grow, but Not for Everyone
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U.S. Tech Salaries Grow, but Not for Everyone
Author : infodocket
Score : 61 points
Date : 2021-10-06 20:06 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
| rank0 wrote:
| These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. Which kinds
| of people are participating in this IEEE study? I bet those
| people fit into different demographics and receive different
| compensation relative to the rest of tech.
| arenaninja wrote:
| Great summary and informative graphics. I wish it was
| interactive!
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Honestly though, I can't even begin to evaluate the validity of
| the study because they locked it behind a $125 paywall.
| throwawayhacka wrote:
| Heh. I guess I was around median in 1994 :)
|
| Sometimes this stuff really bums me out..time to get on leetcode
| I guess!
| dudul wrote:
| > And the gap between Caucasians and African Americans also
| continued to grow
|
| On the graph: White - 155k Black - 130k Asian - 156k
|
| Is it time to talk about the gap between Blacks and Asians
| instead?
| didibus wrote:
| > Is it time to talk about the gap between Blacks and Asians
| instead?
|
| The problem isn't so much what value you put on the groups, as
| the gap itself.
|
| Think of it more generically: gap<Race,
| Salary>
|
| Anytime you'd see a big gap, it would be cause for concern,
| because we value that similar work should provide similar
| compensation no matter your race.
|
| And if you see that the gap is caused by the distribution of
| the type of work, for example, raceX is more likely to do work
| that pays more than raceZ. Well that's also an issue, because
| we value equal opportunity between races, and the assumption is
| if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a big
| gap in the choices of work made between races, especially for
| highly paid professions. At least it shouldn't show that
| without a clear explanation as to why that might be, which we
| don't have today.
|
| I understand 100% where you come from with that comment, it can
| get annoying to feel personally blamed for inequality, where
| the real blame could be historical, or accidental, but I'd only
| say to try and be the better man, and get past that, because
| focusing on the "blame" both as a recipient or activist wanting
| to lash it out is counterproductive, keep the focus on the
| issue and discussions of solutions I think is the healthy path
| forward for everyone.
|
| And you're right, articles like this one could also try harder
| at that.
| mathverse wrote:
| Whites not born in rich anglo countries are still perceived
| as privileged despite a lot of them growing up in much harder
| conditions than your average black person in tech.
| ctvo wrote:
| Citation required.
| jjcon wrote:
| > if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a
| big gap in the choices of work made between races
|
| I can understand that would be the case wrt race but what
| about different cultures?
| notshift wrote:
| The variance of personality between individuals is around
| 40-60% genetic in origin (i.e. genes have a huge impact on
| personality). Given this, if you believe personality has any
| impact on career selection at all, a differing distribution
| of career selection between sexes and races would be an
| expected outcome, no discrimination or bias necessary.
| tentakull wrote:
| Lol I love how anti Asian racism gets downvotes but what I
| presume to be predominately white hacker news readers. Keep it
| up white liberals.
| victorhooi wrote:
| This really does frustrate me - that racism is usually seen in
| the spectrum of the "whites vs blacks" narrative - but Asian-
| Americans are usually disregarded, or it's not "real" racism.
|
| Sure, they don't have the same pay disparity as blacks
| (although there is still inequality within the cohort itself) -
| however, that's largely been a result of higher educational
| attainment, and the work ethic of Asians - and ignores the
| barriers they've had to overcome to get to that level.
|
| However, there is still a level of casual racism - and even in
| the last year, a lot of anti-Asian assaults across America.
|
| Also, this is an anecdote, in many places I've worked at, it's
| very common that management and above are mostly white males,
| but all the Asians are non-management. I've wondered how much
| of that is due to some cultural issue, versus how much is due
| to some bias in the system.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| It's interesting to see the achievement gap despite policies
| at top institutions that are increasingly trying to get rid
| of objective measurement, and instead focus on "holistic"
| approach.
|
| Lowell HS, here in SF, is a prime example [0], but also the
| lawsuits brought against Ivy League institutions [1] [2] [3]
|
| [0] https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/San-Francisco-
| Lowel...
|
| [1] https://spectator.org/asian-discrimination-sat-
| requirements/
|
| [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/yale-illegally-
| discriminates...
|
| [3] https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/07/living/feat-mindy-kaling-
| brot...
| mrkstu wrote:
| Microsoft, Google/Alphabet, Adobe, Zoom, NetApp- a who's who
| of Silicon Valley. There is zero evidence of American
| companies ignoring talented Asian executives- the shareholder
| could care less as long as the stock progresses.
| endisneigh wrote:
| > and the work ethic of Asians - and ignores the barriers
| they've had to overcome to get to that level.
|
| Could you elaborate?
| iammisc wrote:
| Well of course, the anti-racists quite literally believe that
| 'whiteness' is the gold standard by which every other race,
| including the asians, who have far surpassed the whites,
| ought to be held, because deep down inside they believe
| whites are the ideal.
|
| You see it everywhere. For example, the race chart here lists
| whites first. For other charts where category has no
| particular ordering (for example, technical competence), the
| bars were ordered by current salary. It's not even by
| relative share of the population, because there are more
| hispanics than blacks I believe.
|
| Also, I wonder how the presence of 'other' throws off the
| numbers, because I bet many blacks are used to putting in
| 'other'. I know as a minority myself, I often check 'other'
| on these forms. It's no one's business and will only serve to
| hurt you.
| gremIin wrote:
| Can you expand on what you mean when you say Asians have
| far surpassed the whites? Are you strictly referring to
| salary, or other things like power and beauty standards?
|
| Last time I checked, white people in the US weren't
| aspiring to attain Asian beauty standards.
| iammisc wrote:
| > Last time I checked, white people in the US weren't
| aspiring to attain Asian beauty standards.
|
| Really?
|
| Androgenous / gender non-conforming dress originated in
| KPop/anime/manga. Same with the slim aesthetic for men.
|
| E-girls/boys are all the rage these days.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-girls_and_e-boys
|
| Asians are quietly, but strongly breaking in to the
| charisma of the upper class. See the popularity of the
| movie Crazy Rich Asians.
|
| In terms of power, it's debatable, but China seems like a
| more powerful nation than the United States every day
| that passes.
| bradleyjg wrote:
| If whites have higher pay it's because of discrimination but
| if Asians have higher pay it's overcoming discrimination.
|
| Is your model of the world falsifiable?
| project2501a wrote:
| It is time to talk about unionization that would throw all
| these bullshit inequalities out the window.
| b20000 wrote:
| why is this downvoted?
| mrkstu wrote:
| Because it would just replace one set of inequalities with
| a different set?
| tehjoker wrote:
| They're not bullshit, they're secondary contradictions to the
| primary contradiction of bourgeoisie vs proletarians. The
| secondary contradictions do affect real people and are a
| great way to rally people together by showing solidarity to
| each other.
| gruez wrote:
| ...by replacing meritocracy with seniority?
| Foobar8568 wrote:
| It's already the case in most companies.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| That's why it's good we can switch companies!
| b20000 wrote:
| what meritocracy? are you saying that passing leetcode
| interviews means you know your job?
| jjcon wrote:
| Plenty of us not in the Bay Area monoculture have never
| been subjected to leetcode type interviews, I know I
| never have.
| emidln wrote:
| You can also tell employers "no". I did it in the last
| round and of 6 companies that tried a leetcode-style
| interview, only 1 ended talks. I received offers from the
| other 5 despite not giving them a bullshit timed algo
| interview.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| If you honestly believe that companies operate as
| meritocracies I have a bridge to sell you. Nepotism still
| runs rampant, attractive people get more job offers,
| promotions, and pay, networking still trounces experience
| and credentials when it comes to finding work, and
| credentials themselves are largely about wealth signaling.
|
| Seniority is at least an objective measure, even if it is a
| terrible one. Besides which, no one says that's how a union
| has to work.
| the_only_law wrote:
| > attractive people get more job offers
|
| Hey, I need a new webcam for interviews because this 720p
| can't seem to get decent lighting really does a number ob
| me there.
| DaveExeter wrote:
| Unionization would throw so much out the window!
| FredPret wrote:
| Window panes! What a capitalist decadence.
|
| /s
| syshum wrote:
| That is good for the economy... Broken Windows are the
| best... /s
| WrathOfJay wrote:
| Would have liked to see these numbers adjusted for cost of
| living. Making $145,000 in silicon valley is not anywhere
| comparable to making $145,000 in Podunk Florida, and thus I'm not
| sure what value to derive from this data, with respect to my own
| earnings.
| jjcon wrote:
| These numbers have more to do with who is responding to the
| optional IEEE benefits survey (the IEEE target demographic) than
| it does actual salaries.
|
| There is a lot that seems odd with these numbers and they do not
| appear to be not very representative as they are poorly sampled
| and undersampled. the very first chart shows slow steady growth
| and in the others we see tons of massive jumps - for instance
| they show median male salary jumping from 112k in 2018 to 156k in
| 2020. That would be an insane jump for an entire industry in 2
| years (unless the sampling is poor as is the case here).
| stagger87 wrote:
| I think I agree. Non-costal _median_ salaries around 150k? Who
| is responding to this? IEEE members at large companies in
| senior positions is my guess.
| readingnews wrote:
| Geez, where the heck do any of these people work?!? I am a
| unix/linux expert, Ph.D. in computer engineering, and have been a
| tenure track professor (left to go back to systems administration
| due to an emergency which caused a family move).
|
| Honestly, I have a lot of good experience. I thought I had a good
| job. I do not make anywhere near what the lowest of those
| salaries are, and my B.S. is not only in EECE, but I have a lot
| of analog design experience. Wholy mackerel, where do I sign up
| for the bottom of the line entry level position at any of those
| places?
| the_only_law wrote:
| Doesn't EE/CE stuff generally cap out lower than software?
|
| But anyway in software devs you're experience in regards to
| salary is going to depend on a number of different things like
| the market/industry/domain you're in the market/industry/domain
| you started or established yourself in, etc.
| readingnews wrote:
| Sure, but I did not think there was a $50k difference, and
| that would be me picking a pretty low figure from those
| graphs. I mean, the median given by the article is literally
| $60k more than some of the higher paid people I know.
|
| And I am not EE/CE, I teach CS and also work as a sysadmin!
| eulers_secret wrote:
| Does anyone know if these are base (W2 box 1) or "total comp"
| numbers? If this is base, I need to push for a raise...
| the_only_law wrote:
| The industry pay seems a lot more bimodal (possibly multimodal)
| than often portrayed by tech focused sites and communities,
| based on a variety of different things.
|
| Just for reference I wrapped up a job search recently, speaking
| to a number of recruiters and employers. The highest potential
| number given to me (base) was still around $10k under the first
| quoted number. The jobs with a base salary in that range exist,
| I saw a number of them, but they don't want to talk to me.
| johnnyb9 wrote:
| Crude analysis of gender pay gap. What is the difference in
| experience level, hours worked, industry, etc.? Pay gap "headed
| in the wrong direction" could easily be more women entering the
| field at a junior level, which would actually be heading in the
| _right_ direction.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| It's also self-reported. Men, they say, in general are
| "bolder". That translates to over-stating and/or those with
| something to "brag" about are more likely to respond.
| oingodoingo wrote:
| don't forget that more women dropped out of work to handle
| childcare during the pandemic
| jldugger wrote:
| More formally, this is the origin story for Simpson's paradox:
| when you combine subgroups, trends can disappear or even
| reverse. The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth'
| you can get.
|
| This is why you have such varying claims about stuff like women
| earning equal pay with men. People who want social change
| (activists, politicans) group together the entire population,
| and come to the conclusion that women make 83 cents on the
| dollar. But when you break out along other dimensions (age/YOE,
| occupation, hours worked), the gap is reduced. But never
| eliminated!
|
| What I'd really like to do some day is be smart enough to
| replicate https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-
| these-wh... and see how more recent census data compares.
| xenocyon wrote:
| _" The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth' you
| can get."_
|
| Data scientist here. The above is not the correct takeaway
| from Simpson's paradox. It is not generally correct that the
| trends seen in subdivided groups are closer to truth than
| overall groups; sometimes the opposite is the case. It
| depends entirely on what the divisions are and whether they
| make sense.
|
| With regard to gender-based pay disparity, there are a
| multiplicity of factors, from the most obvious ("equal pay
| for equal work") to other factors such as the fact that
| professions largely staffed by women tend to get paid less
| than professions largely staffed by men. For instance
| childcare is miserably compensated, despite being a position
| of high responsibility and impact.
|
| The consensus regarding women during the pandemic (not
| limited to tech workers) was that women have
| disproportionately sacrificed their careers to cover the
| needs of childcare and at-home schooling during the pandemic.
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| Should people who sacrifice their careers for noble goals
| be paid less?
|
| Not that I am demanding an answer from you specifically.
| It's just a weird question in the context of a country
| where wage labor is the only real source of income for
| individuals.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| What does "paid less" even mean in this context? If you
| sacrifice your career, you sacrifice the remuneration you
| were receiving from it. It's part of the career...
| bsanr wrote:
| Recognizing that the odds of this thread turning into a ****show
| are high, a piece of general advice:
|
| Note whatever you feel compelled to say within the first 5
| minutes of your deciding to leave a comment here. Discard it.
| Write an entirely new comment. Post that instead.
| throwaway2048 wrote:
| yep, its telling that most of the comments are rushing to make
| excuses as to why what the article says might not be true.
|
| Not to say the article is the gospel truth, and something
| unexpected might be occurring, but the fact that it seems to be
| poster's first reflex says a lot.
| b20000 wrote:
| while we are fighting over gender and race gaps, we fail to
| notice the gap between tech salaries and salaries of marketing
| and sales executives, C level roles, lawyers and so on.
| tehjoker wrote:
| It's true, but if we do manage to mostly equalize those (and in
| an ideal world they would be!), it will really sharpen the
| criticism of the top because there will be nothing left to
| divide us.
| gremIin wrote:
| That is not realistic. Do I really need to elaborate?
| llampx wrote:
| There will never be a lack of divisions the elites can foster
| in the populace. If you had told me that in the middle of a
| pandemic, people would politicize medicinal measures and
| vaccinations, i would have laughed.
| tehjoker wrote:
| We don't have to win over right-wingers, they're a lost
| cause. I think among the broad left, the contradictions of
| race and gender are healing slowly. For example, a black
| marxist professor told me that in the 1960s white people
| could not show up to a police brutality protest, but now
| the George Floyd protests were fully mixed race.
|
| The condition of the capitalist system is declining and
| more people are feeling it. By removing things the elites
| can point to, we narrow their ability to navigate.
|
| The right wing is turning to conspiracy and nationalism as
| they usually do. However, they are the minority of the
| country (the friends and family of the ownership class is
| necessarily smaller than the prolaterians), they just have
| the ability to do a LOT of damage.
| syshum wrote:
| Wow.. Please leave your echo chamber.. Please
| the_lonely_road wrote:
| Isn't beloved white and left politician Bernie Sanders
| famous for a photo of him as a young adult being dragged
| away from an African American rights protest by police?
|
| I spent just a few seconds looking at photos of 1960's
| police brutality photos on Google and see white people in
| most of them.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=1960%27s+police+brutality
| +pr...
|
| Good time to also point out that conservative voters make
| up something like 24-25% of the population and liberal
| voters roughly the same. Half the population doesn't vote
| in general though the numbers are higher for presidential
| elections than your average election.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| You are badly mistaken if you think the right wing is
| only, or even primarily, "the friends and family of the
| ownership class".
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Communities of color are the least likely to be vaccinated
| and have good reason to distrust the medical establishment
| and the government. Call that politicization if you want
| but their reasons go back far beyond the start of this
| pandemic.
| [deleted]
| refenestrator wrote:
| Dude, the git master branch is divisive, somehow. There will
| never be an end to it, it's an entertainment/outrage complex
| with billions in funding.
|
| Ignoring class divisions and real-world material conditions
| while we get rich and kibbitz about trivialities is the whole
| point, you can't run out of trivialities.
| iammisc wrote:
| > you can't run out of trivialities.
|
| Spot on. I'd add... you can't run out of irrelevant
| trivialities.
| didibus wrote:
| Agree completely, that's why they say the biggest decline in
| recent years has been the middle class, so much attention in
| making sure everyone in the middle is equally in the middle,
| and less focus on the fact that the middle is itself on a
| decline.
| syshum wrote:
| There is a decline to the middle class, however that is
| because most of the middle class moved to the upper classes,
| not down to the lower class..
|
| https://youtu.be/4J5s6aZCPSg?t=499
| havelhovel wrote:
| You can't just define the middle class according to
| arbitrary income bands, as the presenter in your link does.
| The middle class is an ideal: a single family home, yearly
| vacations, pensions, etc. The presenter is pretending like
| we're complaining about the cost of Netflix subscriptions
| when we're actually complaining about major expenses like
| housing and education being less affordable relative to
| wages over time. I stopped watching after the presenter
| started comparing silent films to the MCU to prove how
| great our quality of life is today. It's a wildly
| disingenuous take and misses the entire point.
| californical wrote:
| I don't think it misses the point at all. The world is
| amazing today, and a larger number of people than ever
| get to experience an extraordinary standard of living.
|
| And I totally think it's true that people don't realize
| how much they're spending on modern conveniences that
| could be easily cut out if they wanted to live more
| cheaply.
| dack wrote:
| How do you know they are being disingenuous rather than
| just ignorant / incorrect?
| didibus wrote:
| He might not be, but the way he is giving a talk, wearing
| a suit, has the video up on YouTube, and speaks as if he
| is very knowledgeable on the matter, if he were to be
| incorrect or ignorant, it would still have a disingenuous
| effect on the viewer, even if he doesn't know that he's
| wrong or ignorant and totally believes his own body odor
| smells of roses.
|
| And notice I said "if he were to be incorrect or
| ignorant", I have not tried to fact check or anything
| what he's saying in the talk, and so I'm making no claim
| to the accuracy and veracity of it.
| havelhovel wrote:
| Besides the convenient mischaracterization of claims that
| the middle class is shrinking, I assume a "Milton
| Friedman Distinguished Fellow at the Foundation for
| Economic Education," with a Ph.D. in Economics, would be
| aware of everything I wrote above and focus on those more
| important aspects.
| Gunax wrote:
| Are you sure you cannot define it that way?
|
| Not saying youre wrong per se, but the problem with these
| sorts of loose definitions is that one can bend the
| definition to make whichever point one wishes to.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| Most sales reps are not especially well-compensated... it is a
| brutal job. The sales superstars and sales execs earn a lot but
| IMO absolutely deserve it. Any of those guys work WAY harder
| than any software dev. And have no idea how much money they're
| going to make until last day of the quarter. Rough stuff.
|
| Lawyers I can see the case against, but remember that they are
| paying off a ton of debt, and missed a couple years of earnings
| in law school.
| ghaff wrote:
| And the reason you don't see sales rep interview drama is
| that it's pretty simple. You hire people out of school or
| based on previous record and if they don't make their numbers
| even if mostly based on customer issues outside of their
| control, they don't get their bonuses or get let go.
|
| The relevant quote I've heard is that "Sales managers have no
| trouble firing people."
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