[HN Gopher] Apple to face EU antitrust charge over NFC chip
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Apple to face EU antitrust charge over NFC chip
Author : nojito
Score : 158 points
Date : 2021-10-06 14:21 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| vlozko wrote:
| If you build it, they will take it away from you. That's the
| European market for you and compounding legal issues like this
| make it a difficult one to foster innovation in.
|
| This strikes me differently from the App Store issues. There
| Apple is dealing with 3rd parties and trying to create a playing
| field where they allow competitors on their platform, i.e. Apple
| Music and Spotify. Here Apple built their NFC chip for their own
| use and for their own product. If another company wants to
| provide NFC capability for credit cards, they can and the actual
| credit cards already do.
| arve0 wrote:
| > If another company wants to provide NFC capability for credit
| cards, they can and the actual credit cards already do.
|
| The other companies wants to provide NFC capabilities for their
| mobile bank/direct payment app. Like Norwegian "Vipps", direct
| instant payments between any Norwegian bank.
| ajford wrote:
| I think the issue is not with supply of the chip, but Apple
| restricting API access to the chip on IOS devices. They're
| basically gatekeeping hw features, and preventing anyone else
| from providing the same level of features on IOS by software
| restriction.
|
| Could be wrong though, as I haven't followed it closely, being
| an Android user.
| boudin wrote:
| You got this wrong, the title is a bit confusing though. It's
| about Apple not allowing other software to use the NFC and
| using it to force apple pay.
|
| > If you build it, they will take it away from you. That's the
| European market for you and compounding legal issues like this
| make it a difficult one to foster innovation in.
|
| Now that a really stupid statement, what does it even mean?
| Europe is a bad guy that goes from house to house to steal kids
| drawing? Europe bashing every time there's a form of regulation
| is really exhausting. So Europe should be a lawless place?
| sschueller wrote:
| The only reason the popular payment system in Switzerland (Twint)
| uses garbage bluetooth at some cash registers or qr codes (at RF
| terminals) is because Apple not allowing the use of their NFC (at
| least they did not back a few years ago). Until recently, Apple
| was very dominant in Switzerland and any payment solution that
| didn't work with Apple would be dead on arrival.
|
| Every 3rd question on the Twint forums is a request to implement
| payment via watch but that ain't happening as long as Apple block
| this and they will not enable a feature only for Android users.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> they will not enable a feature only for Android users_
|
| Can I ask why not? Seems a shame to leave such a large user
| base on the table.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| There aren't any good Android watches really. Perhaps this
| will change with Google and Samsung pairing up but right now
| as Android user you're pretty much out of luck
| smoldesu wrote:
| I dunno, I bought a cheap-o Fossil watch a couple years ago
| on a whim, and I actually ended up using the Google Pay
| feature most of all. Being able to leave my phone and
| wallet in my backpack while I pay for coffee felt like a
| whole new level of real-life Disneyland.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| I thought parent meant payment via android phones. Is there
| a difference between that and watches? NFC (Google pay)
| should work the same across the Android ecosystem, no?
| ljm wrote:
| There aren't any good Smart Watches, really. Apple aren't
| good smartwatch manufacturers when their smartwatches only
| know how to talk to other Apple devices and services (like
| HealthKit or whatever it's called) and actively prevent
| compatibility with other systems. I mean, that's just
| buying into Apple's hype. If their watch was _so_ good,
| they 'd make it talk through open standards and they
| wouldn't go for ecosystem lock-in: it would be good on its
| own merit.
|
| My Samsung Galaxy watch has had an EKG sensor for longer
| than it has taken for Apple to add their own. It's
| technologically superior, and also has a circular face
| instead of being a big square block, and has better battery
| life since I can get a good 2 days or more out of it. But
| ultimately it is also as bad as Apple because it only works
| well with Samsung's ecosystem.
| HatchedLake721 wrote:
| Sorry but that's a lousy argument.
|
| The whole point about Apple (for decades) is vertical
| integration, building hardware and software specifically
| optimized for the said hardware. That's what Apple is in
| it's core, that's why they've been revolutionizing
| industries and that's why iPhones, iPads and MacBooks are
| most performant and battery efficient consumer devices
| for years.
|
| It's like saying - "There aren't any good consoles
| really. Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo aren't good console
| manufacturers when their consoles only know how to talk
| to other PlayStation/Xbox/Nintendo services and actively
| prevent compatibility with other systems."
| m-p-3 wrote:
| "There aren't any good consoles really.
| Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo aren't good console manufacturers
| when their consoles only know how to talk to other
| PlayStation/Xbox/Nintendo services and actively prevent
| compatibility with other systems."
|
| To be fair that point did improve in the last few years.
| In the past, cross-platform online play wasn't even a
| thing.
|
| They're opening up because they're competing against
| eachothers, while Apple is doing whatever it can to avoid
| open standards with their devices. Unless the standard
| itself is too big to avoid and not adopting it would put
| them at a disadvantage.
| thefounder wrote:
| Apple sells more smartwatches so the market has a diff
| opinion than yours
| cnst wrote:
| But doesn't Android sell more devices overall? Does that
| imply Android is better?
| pjerem wrote:
| Because then you have to explain why it works for them and
| not for you and that it's not your fault, straight in your
| marketing.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Yeah but making money off ~55% of the mobile userbase seems
| better than 100% of nothing.
| vineyardmike wrote:
| Its a bank. People will pay and use money either way. Its
| a feature improvement, not an original feature. If they
| just avoid the headaches, they don't lose anything
| really.
| Groxx wrote:
| At the cost of reducing the opinion of your company for
| anyone who has problems.
|
| Whether or not that's a worthwhile tradeoff: I dunno! No
| doubt it depends on exact numbers, lifetime expected
| value, potential word-of-mouth damage, etc.
| m-p-3 wrote:
| Put a notice when setting up the app that because of
| Apple's limitation on NFC that the feature is unavailable.
| sschueller wrote:
| I assume it is because at the moment the usability is
| identical across all devices and bank versions. Enabling a
| feature on a device and not on the other which has more users
| will cause support headaches.
| cnst wrote:
| But then that's Apple issue. Simply refer the Apple fans
| back to Apple, or advise them to switch to Android.
| sschueller wrote:
| That doesn't work with Apple fans. They will blame you,
| never Apple. It has gotten better now but back then it
| was always your fault because Apple was the most
| innovative etc. etc. etc.
| cnst wrote:
| Good artists copy, great artists steal.
|
| Apple literally copied half of the Android long after
| stuff made it to Android. They've even copied Swype
| keyboard like 10 years later!
| withinboredom wrote:
| And Android copied windows phone. ;) Windows phone had
| some of the best power settings for a long time, turning
| into a dumb phone when the battery got low.
| m-p-3 wrote:
| Why stop implementing a feature because one of the vendor
| is arbitrarily limiting the hardware? Targetting the lowest
| common denominator isn't always the right move, especially
| if one platform is stagnating for their own benefit.
|
| Light up a fire under their feet, have the userbase put
| some pressure on Apple if they're unhappy about the
| situation.
| baybal2 wrote:
| More or less the same in China
| microtherion wrote:
| And the only reason why a national, NIH payment system like
| Twint became "popular" was that all bigger Swiss banks for
| several years refused to allow regular mobile payments (i.e.
| Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay) for their credit cards.
|
| Since 2019, more and more banks have started enabling regular
| mobile payments, so it's going to be interesting to see where
| that leaves Twint (I've never used it, so I have no idea what
| reasons one would have to use it over NFC payments, other than
| lack of support by one's card provider).
|
| https://www.moneyland.ch/en/apple-pay-google-pay-swiss-banks...
| sschueller wrote:
| Twint has one advantage over cards and that is online
| payments. It is so quick and easy to scan a code and pay than
| entering credit card details. Yes, I know apple pay can do
| things like that but I still need a credit card in that case.
| Twint lets me pay directly out of my bank account or even via
| prepaid Twint.
|
| The biggest "scam" going on now is the banks specifically
| Visa pushing their garbage Debit card. For users it seems
| great as it's cheaper no fee thing, however for vendors it is
| a nightmare. The fees are astronomical over regular credit
| cards yet they have to accept them if they want to accept
| Visa's credit card. Visa found another legal loop hole they
| can milk and they are going all the way.
| microtherion wrote:
| I'd argue that for the customer, Apple Pay is about as
| quick and easy as it gets. Obtaining a credit card is a one
| time inconvenience.
|
| The potential fees involved would be more of a concern for
| the vendors, it seems to me. Are you saying that Visa debit
| cards have higher fees than their credit cards? My
| understanding was that usually it's the other way around.
| simonklitj wrote:
| Same in Denmark with the popular mobile payment app
| "MobilePay".
| cnst wrote:
| You know what, it's probably the same reason Walmart Pay is
| based on QR codes, too.
|
| It's probably why NFC is not universal on Android as well.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| When Animal Crossing on the Switch took off last year, I heard of
| some nefarious characters who would use Android phones with NFC
| capability to write Amiibo (Nintendo toys-to-life products) data
| to NFC tags, then use those tags in game. Such a thing is only
| possible when the manufacturer allows the user to utilize the
| hardware they purchased.
| Zelizz wrote:
| That's possible from iOS as well.
| cptskippy wrote:
| > nefarious
|
| That's bit harsh don't you think?
|
| It's a bit like Ford selling a v6 Mustang with 4 functional
| cylinders and a switch on the dashboard that enables the other
| two but you're not allowed to flip the switch unless you send
| Ford $$$.
|
| Nintendo could have easily prevented copying tags by writing a
| signature based on the tag's MAC to the data on the tag itself.
| The Switch would just read the tag, generate a signature and
| compare it to the data read.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| I'm being facetious, in a humorous attempt to deflect any
| criticism against piracy. Nintendo sold Amiibo cards in blind
| packs, then later discontinued them. Some of those cards are
| rare and sought after. I have no problem with people
| downloading a few hundreds bytes of data to unlock parts of
| software they already paid for.
| danShumway wrote:
| Nothing to detract from your point, but I just want to
| reinforce in general to anyone reading this that cloning an
| NFC tag is very likely not piracy.
|
| An NFC code isn't a creative work that can be copyrighted,
| and it's a stretch to call an NFC tag a DRM system. IANAL,
| but I suspect that Nintendo would have a hard time arguing
| in a court that aftermarket Amiibo cards are doing anything
| illegal at all (of course, provided those cards don't
| violate trademark or have copyrighted graphics/characters
| printed on them).
| detaro wrote:
| I could see an argument that the card is a license key
| for the functionality activated by it.
| cptskippy wrote:
| > I'm being facetious
|
| That's a dangerous game around these parts.
|
| > I have no problem with people downloading a few hundreds
| bytes of data to unlock parts of software they already paid
| for.
|
| I agree, the locked content is taking up storage space on
| their device and for many it's permanently inaccessible due
| to the scarcity of the cards.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| > That's a dangerous game around these parts.
|
| Subtlety is lost in text, and wasted on the technically-
| minded.
|
| > the locked content is taking up storage space
|
| Modders noticed unknown amiibo codes in the Wii U version
| of Breath of the Wild version and were able to create
| tags months before the amiibos were actually released. So
| in this case the locked content is released earlier than
| designed.
| astraloverflow wrote:
| How is that "nefarious"? It's not like using a copy nfc tag is
| giving some players an unfair competitive edge (animal crossing
| is supposed to be laidback right?). Also, there is a limited
| supply of any given amiibo and so when one suddenly becomes
| popular (* cough * Ankha * cough *) many players get priced
| out.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| "I heard of some nefarious characters" is code for "I used my
| Android phone to write NFC tags and I will do it again".
| concinds wrote:
| I'm split on this.
|
| In France, you can't store a metro card on your iPhone, because
| Apple won't open up NFC. You can do it on Android.
|
| Yet, I don't want banks to drop Apple Pay support, and force you
| to use their poorly coded app for payments. Imagine having many
| cards, for personal and business, joint cards and foreign cards,
| thankfully many banks on Android end up supporting GPay, but many
| still force you to use their custom app and don't give you a
| choice. How many years did your bank take before adopting Touch
| ID? For me and some of you, it's measured in years.
|
| Apple shouldn't be able to block third-party NFC use, but should
| be entitled to force banks to make Apple Pay-compatible
| equivalents (when applicable) in addition to whatever custom
| stuff they decide to roll out.
| m4rtink wrote:
| Then maybe switch your bank to a sane one ? Effectively voting
| with your wallet.
| dhritzkiv wrote:
| Not sure what it's like in the US (or the EU), but in Canada,
| all banks effectively offer the same level of customer-
| hostile service.
|
| Without a doubt, they'd roll their own fragmented/compromised
| implementation of contactless payments on iOS, if they had
| the choice.
|
| Not quite the same, but so many large corps in Canada don't
| offer Wallet integration for their relevant products (loyalty
| cards, points balances, etc.) They instead have their own app
| for these, and let me tell you: they are all garbage.
| cmelbye wrote:
| Apple doesn't block third-party NFC / Apple Wallet use. They
| have opened it for certain use cases, including transit passes
| in many cities: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207958
|
| It's incredible convenient. No need to use the fare machines --
| just top up using the Apple Wallet app. Sounds like it's coming
| to Paris soon: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/01/06/apple-to-
| support-paris-...
| kaiju0 wrote:
| Apple should not be required to handle 3rd party agreements with
| commensurate compensation. But they should also not own the
| market. Tough position to strike.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Once you rustle the feathers of traditional power centers
| (finance and law), expect them to hit back to keep the power
| hierarchy in place.
| kryptiskt wrote:
| Nothing gets better by installing Apple as a gatekeeper. And
| the EU has been pretty good against bank transfer fees and
| roaming charges and the like.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Nothing gets better by installing Apple as a gatekeeper_
|
| Eh, privacy. A bit. The reason banks want you to use their
| app is they can collect more data than Apple passes along. I
| also doubt contactless payment would have the adoption it has
| among iOS users without Apple's branding and marketing push.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Literally yesterday people were railing against Netflix for
| not integrating into Apple TV search, and not being willing
| to give their competitor (TV+) insights into their customer
| viewing history.
|
| While also patting Apple on the back for privacy.
| avianlyric wrote:
| > I also doubt contactless payment would have the adoption
| it has among iOS users without Apple's branding and
| marketing push.
|
| Maybe in the US. But hear in the EU contactless was a thing
| a decade before Apple Pay came along, and just about every
| merchant and bank card supported it for at least 5 years
| before Apple Pay.
|
| Indeed I would say that Apple Pay wouldn't have the
| adoption it does in the EU, if it wasn't for contactless
| providing all the infrastructure needed to power it. A
| point you can provide evidence for my comparing Apple Pay
| adoption in the US vs EU.
|
| On your privacy point, you realise that banks get same
| amount of data about a transaction via the card networks,
| regardless of whether or not you use Apple Pay. The only
| party that looses any info is the merchant.
| cnst wrote:
| Exactly. Perhaps they went with the 8 card limit because
| they didn't expect that it'll be as popular in the US,
| and you don't hear that many complaints about it because:
|
| * People in Europe who use contactless all the time
| rarely have as many cards as some Americans.
|
| * Americans who have that many cards rarely use
| contactless.
|
| Perhaps I am an outlier for actually using all my cards
| contactless.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _banks get same amount of data about a transaction via
| the card networks, regardless of whether or not you use
| Apple Pay_
|
| I don't know the situation in the EU, given the privacy
| laws, but in the U.S., banks' enhanced data from app-
| based contactless payments (on Android, obviously) sell
| at a premium to those through a scrubbed channel. The app
| picks up a lot more information, _e.g._ signals,
| location, device, clipboard, _et cetera_ , than the
| payment transcript.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Your privacy actively decreases by switching from pretty
| much anything to Apple services. At least if Microsoft or
| Google is at the wheel you can count on their incompetence:
| Apple's collusion with the American government is well-
| documented at this point, and a reasonable security threat
| to anyone located outside of the United States. It should
| be assumed that the NSA has access to every iMessage
| conversation ever held (otherwise, why would Apple even
| generate a key for themselves?), and that your device is
| constantly spying on you, waiting for a single discrepancy
| that it can report home.
|
| Frankly, if Apple's the alternative, I'd rather roll my own
| security. I have no interest in wasting my time trying to
| pick the lock on my golden handcuffs just to use my
| computer without being watched.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > otherwise, why would Apple even generate a key for
| themselves?
|
| "For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned
| on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting
| your messages. This ensures you can recover your messages
| if you lose access to your Keychain and your trusted
| devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is
| generated on your device to protect future messages and
| isn't stored by Apple." https://support.apple.com/en-
| gb/HT202303
|
| Apple's been fairly prominently resistant to government
| snooping of this nature, to the point of getting in a
| public fight with the FBI over it. https://en.wikipedia.o
| rg/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_d...
|
| The Snowden leaks indicate the two alternatives you
| suggest, Google and Microsoft, joined PRISM before Apple
| did, stating "98 percent of PRISM production is based on
| Yahoo, Google, and Microsoft". https://en.wikipedia.org/w
| iki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)
| bduerst wrote:
| >Apple's been fairly prominently resistant to government
| snooping of this nature, to the point of getting in a
| public fight with the FBI over it.
|
| Eh, that was 2016.
|
| Half a decade later and Apple has since kowtowed to the
| Chinese government to allow spying on iCloud user data.
| Despite their privacy-centric branding campaigns, Profits
| >> Privacy for Apple.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-
| china-ce...
| ceejayoz wrote:
| That's the standard Chinese setup - Google and Microsoft
| aren't going to be allowed to do any differently there -
| and only for Chinese users. I'd expect it to be entirely
| firewalled off from the rest of Apple's infrastructure.
| (Microsoft similarly has datacenters there, with the same
| legal requirements. Google only pulled out over bad PR,
| IMO.)
|
| If you're a Chinese citizen, you're surveilled by the
| Chinese government, regardless of which device you buy.
| bduerst wrote:
| Except it is a complete 180 from the claim "Apple's been
| fairly prominently resistant to government snooping",
| because Apple _hasn 't_. That whole article is about how
| Apple is giving in more and more to demands of the
| Chinese government.
|
| Google faced the same with project Dragonfly and
| employees chose to not kowtow to Chinese government
| spying.
|
| Apple had a choice, and chose profits over privacy by
| spying for the CCP with it's software.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| The claim made upthread that I was responding to was
| "Apple's collusion with the American government is well-
| documented at this point" specifically; I said "fairly
| resistant", too, not "100% perfectly resistant".
|
| Unless I become a Chinese citizen/resident, Apple's
| dealings with China don't particularly concern me much.
| yunohn wrote:
| > The reason banks want you to use their app is they can
| collect more data than Apple passes along.
|
| There's incredibly strict laws around banking privacy in NL
| (and most of the EU). My banks can't even mine my
| transactions for any inference, except fraud. They need my
| approval to even categorize or track spending.
| [deleted]
| cptskippy wrote:
| It's less about keeping the existing power hierarchy and more
| about preventing Apple from forcibly restricting channels or
| stifling any and all competition.
|
| What if the iPhone 14 was SIM locked to a new Cellular MVNO run
| by Apple and if you wanted an iPhone you had to sign up for
| Apple Cellular? The iPhone 14 still used a Qualcomm baseband
| that supported LTE/5G but Apple locked it down to only their
| MVNO. An MVNO is a virtual network run on top of an existing
| network (e.g. AT&T, T-Mobile). How would you feel about that?
|
| Apple NFC uses the same ISO 14443 protocol to talk to Payment
| Terminals that everyone else uses. Their payments run through
| the same card processor and merchant account networks as
| everyone else. There's no reason they couldn't expose the API
| to allow others to use the NFC capabilities of the iPhone to
| transact. They just choose not to because it allows them a
| monopoly.
| mdoms wrote:
| Apple is nearly 50 years old, is the world's largest tech
| company and the most valuable company on Earth. They are the
| "traditional power centers".
| nabla9 wrote:
| As an EU citizen. I think EU antitrust is fighting good fight
| for the people.
|
| European Union antitrust enforcement has support of may civil
| liberty and privacy organizations and political parties. Their
| main complaint is that they are not doing enough.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _EU antitrust is fighting good fight_
|
| Vestager fights a popular fight, but she fights it badly.
| Almost everything significant she has tried to do has been
| blocked by courts or settled away. She's Europe's Eliot
| Spitzer.
| sentinel wrote:
| Turns out making up "antitrust" cases against US companies is a
| great source of income for the European Union.
| kristofferR wrote:
| This is a pretty clear case though, it's the same situtation in
| Norway.
|
| The country wide standard BankAxept, that has low fees
| (0.024USD per transaction), is used for almost all other card
| transactions, but Apple use their NFC monopoly to charge stores
| exorbiant VISA network fees when people use their Apple devices
| to pay. If the blockage of BankAxept on Apple Pay is allowed to
| continue it could cost the Norwegian economy hundreds of
| millions of dollars in just monopoly fees.
| Ginden wrote:
| > Turns out making up "antitrust" cases against US companies is
| a great source of income for the European Union.
|
| That "great source of income" contributes less than 1% of EU
| income.
| sigzero wrote:
| Seems to be so.
| franga2000 wrote:
| They're definitely treating them as an ATM, but these claims
| are far from "made up".
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| Is there any contactless payment system that isn't a complete
| privacy nightmare?
|
| Pretty surprised so many people even in tech are OK with yet
| another entity knowing your purchase history.
|
| I wish I could just make my phone emulate the contactless CC I
| have, that would be so mush simpler.
| shuckles wrote:
| What are the privacy risks of Apple Pay over a contactless
| card? My understanding is the applet in the Secure Element
| operates independently of the system, and Apple does not
| collect data about where I transact.
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| Yea I guess Apple Pay is decently private. I would assume
| anything available on Android is providing Google, Samsung,
| etc. with a lot of transaction data.
| cnst wrote:
| That's some good news, hopefully a change will follow.
|
| Note that Apple Pay also has a very low limit on the number of
| cards that you can add, presumably because each card occupies an
| actual hardware slot. In the original iPhone SE, that's only 8
| cards, and Apple Cash (the debit card) gets counted as one of
| those (unless you're remove it manually), then if you have Apple
| Card (the credit card), presumably it takes another slot, so
| you're only left with just 6 slots for any other contactless
| credit or debit card.
|
| How's such a low limit good for the consumer? If you only have 6
| cards in total, might as well simply carry all of them in your
| wallet anyways; I do that already.
|
| Android Pay and Google Pay don't have such tiny, restrictive and
| anticompetitive limits. I have like 20 different credit cards as
| contactless in Google Pay without any issues, which is very
| convenient if you care about bonus categories; same was for
| Android Pay before it got rebranded as Google Pay.
|
| Plus, in Android, you can even select a third party app to be
| used for contactless in the "Default apps" -- "Tap & pay"
| settings instead of Google Pay; I know Wells Fargo used to have
| contactless support in their own app at one point, for example,
| and was selectable there.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _How 's such a low limit good for the consumer?_
|
| Because having it in hardware means it fetches faster. That's
| why I use Apple Pay. The other apps are slower than swiping.
| simonklitj wrote:
| Hmm.. If anything I would assume the only potential benefit
| is that it might be more secure?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Is it? It works literally instantly on my Android phone. The
| transaction is over before my phone gets even close to
| touching the terminal.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| No, but some avid Apple fans will do some epic technical
| mental gymnastics to try to make the point that iPhones
| must always be better and faster at every operation.
| cnst wrote:
| That's just not true. If it's stored in some special secure
| memory, it's probably actually slower than the general memory
| on Android.
|
| Android's contactless doesn't require network connectivity.
| You can switch and use any of the added cards without having
| any network connection.
| nkellenicki wrote:
| I find this pretty funny - I can't imagine carrying more than
| two cards around with me on a daily basis. In fact one is just
| a backup.
|
| I do of course have many more cards; one of the downsides of
| the credit system in the US is how you have to game it to
| improve your credit. But for the most part those stay in the
| drawer.
| cnst wrote:
| Exactly, I carry and regularly use only 3 physical cards. The
| rest of the 20 or so cards I only carry in Google Pay, with
| the physical cards staying in the drawer and which I only
| ever use for the 3-digit number when I verify Google Pay on a
| new phone.
| evercast wrote:
| You have "like 20 different credit cards"? I live in Europe and
| I don't know anybody who would have more than 4-6 cards total.
| Granted, it's an anecdotal proof, but I really have hard time
| imagining any of my friends having more than 8 cards in their
| wallets. Is it somehow a US thing?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Yeah most people here have just one.
| silvestrov wrote:
| My Danish bank has to tell customers that "it is a good idea
| to have at least 2 cards, as you will otherwise have a hard
| time if your only card gets blocked for some reason".
|
| So in Denmark many see no reason to more than a single card.
|
| BTW. We don't have a concept like "credit score" at all.
| sammorrowdrums wrote:
| I am in EU and have debit and credit cards in UK and EU and
| business account in EU. Also because in some places only
| Maestro is accepted I have maestro and MasterCard debit
| separately...
|
| Because of travel I also have transferwise money anywhere
| card.
| post_break wrote:
| Maybe? Getting a bunch of cards works out in your favor.
| Costco card nets me 4% back on gas everywhere and 2% in store
| and extends the warranty on things. Southwest card nets me
| miles for flying, Chase cards get me points on certain
| things, etc. Suddenly you have tons of cards you cycle
| through to max out rewards to play the game. Also spread out
| your credit so you don't load up a single card with a heavy
| purchase.
| Bayart wrote:
| >Maybe? Getting a bunch of cards works out in your favor.
| Costco card nets me 4% back on gas everywhere and 2% in
| store and extends the warranty on things.
|
| That's one way of looking at it. The other is that debt is
| priced in everything and you're just recouping part of it.
| post_break wrote:
| Am I supposed to just stop eating food and buying gas? I
| don't understand what you're trying to say. If the
| alternative is pay cash and not get these benefits the
| only other logical reason for your statement is that I
| have a choice in the matter to not do these things.
| Bayart wrote:
| No, what I'm trying to say isn't that your decision-
| making is flawed, but that there's little decision-making
| involved and that you're driven into that path by the way
| the system is structured in the US. You guys are being
| forced into a situation where the most rational decision
| is to have a dozen credit cards to optimize for an arcane
| rule-set.
|
| It's pretty f*cked.
| cnst wrote:
| It's not uncommon to be able to collect more value from
| the rewards than what it costs for the merchant to accept
| the credit card.
|
| For example, it often costs 3% or less to accept payment
| for a merchant, but there are many cards which offer
| rewards that can be valued at 7.5% cashback, or even
| higher values if you're into chic travel.
|
| For example, many people have more than one of the same
| card, e.g., Chase Freedom is a popular example. By having
| 3 cards, you can increase the quarterly limit on the
| product by 3x -- similar to using extra threads on a
| multicore CPU -- it's still the same system, so there's
| no extra inconvenience. Since they're all from the same
| issuer, having any number of Chase cards is a fixed cost
| for the user, because all of them appear in a single
| account login, and can also be set to have identical due
| dates, too. Likewise, Google Pay and Chase have no limits
| to the number of cards you can add to a digital wallet,
| so, it works out there, too.
|
| It's amazing how so many iPhone users project the
| perceived inconvenience of this approach, but there's
| actually no inconvenience for Android users, since
| Android's NFC is open and doesn't have any limits.
| post_break wrote:
| Also don't forget AARP is open to everyone. I'm 33 and a
| member.
| [deleted]
| ceejayoz wrote:
| If you're maximizing like this, though, you're likely to
| still have a small handful of daily drivers - a 2% general
| purpose card, a dining/grocery card, maybe a gas card.
|
| My airline and hotel cards aren't in Apple Pay because
| they're largely worthless in-person. Same for my Amazon
| credit card; 5% back on everything Amazon, but I don't need
| it physically with me ever.
| post_break wrote:
| Sure, but the point is, do I want to carry 20 cards with
| me, when I can carry one phone? Similar to the Coin card
| RIP. I need my southwest card, costco, chase, chase
| debit, apple card, amex, etc on my person, just to name a
| few.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| That's six, and you probably need the physical card for
| the debit for ATM access anyways. If you're in the Chase
| ecosystem, you're probably better off using the Chase
| cards and transferring to Southwest as a transfer
| partner, too, as you'll get better earn rates on every
| category than using the airline card itself.
|
| Quite a few cards are worth having, but only in the sock
| drawer most of the time.
| cnst wrote:
| Don't all ATMs support contactless these days? I used ATM
| with contactless. So, no, you don't. You just need a good
| phone that doesn't have arbitrary restrictions.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| In the US? I haven't come across a single one yet.
| robbiet480 wrote:
| Every Chase ATM I've used recently in California, Nevada,
| Colorado and Florida had contactless support on the ATM.
| I even pulled out large amounts of money via contactless
| without issue.
| cnst wrote:
| Yes. Many/most Wells Fargo ATMs have had contactless for
| several years now. Their Android app used to offer NFC
| contactless support so that you never had to even use
| Google's Android Pay to use contactless.
|
| I think they originally didn't work with contactless
| Android Pay, maybe because the card number is different,
| but it's been fixed a few years ago. They also have the
| app-based ATM login, so I don't recall ever using the
| physical WF debit card in the last X years.
| riversflow wrote:
| Every Wells Fargo ATM I've used for the last couple years
| accepts contactless.
| sharpy wrote:
| A lot of people chase sign up bonuses. Some credit cards have
| sign up bonuses equivalent to $1000+. So sign up for a year,
| and then cancel. Also our credit score systems consider
| number of open accounts, and anything less than 10 is
| considered as having too few accounts.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| There's diminishing returns (credit score wise) on open
| accounts once you're at three - ten is hardly necessary -
| and if you're churning, you don't need the churned card in
| Apple Pay long-term.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > anything less than 10 is considered as having too few
| accounts.
|
| Source? I do not think any person reviewing people's credit
| history would rate people higher for having 10 low barrier
| to entry revolving credit accounts rather than say 5 or
| even 3.
|
| Different types of credit are weighted differently, so
| mortgage and auto and student and revolving credit card are
| not all seen the same, and I would not believe "more is
| better", especially just for revolving credit lines for
| credit cards.
| cnst wrote:
| It's proprietary info, part of the scoring models. I
| think the magic number for best score is actually 20+,
| but it also counts the closed accounts over the last 7 to
| 10 years, too.
|
| I recall seeing this in Credit Karma or maybe Experian's
| FreeCreditScore at one point (that you have to have 20 or
| 21 accounts for the best score), but cannot find it right
| now. I think it's a relatively well known number.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Lol the US has a really weird credit rating system.
|
| Here having no credit cards is best. Because not having to
| loan shows having the ability of being responsible
| financially.
|
| Note: here in Europe we get no rewards or anything on
| credit cards. It's viewed more as a liability, not a
| virtue.
|
| In fact my credit cards cost money in stamp duty, they
| don't ever gain me any.
| sharpy wrote:
| Yep. That makes more sense. But here, they are basically
| looking at your ability to manage credit "responsibly" by
| looking at your payment history, and utilization, among
| other things.
|
| So say if I spend $3000 a month, and pay it off every
| month in full, and my total credit limit is $10,000, they
| will ding me regardless of my payment history, because my
| utilization (30%+) is considered high. So if I want to
| maximize my credit score, it behooves me to get more
| cards (easiest way to increase total credit), and spread
| out the payments among them.
| kiklion wrote:
| But if you are chasing sign up bonuses, that typically
| doesn't happen all at once.
|
| Assume you have a card for restaurants, one of travel, one
| for grocery's, one for gas, one for entertainment and one
| catch all.
|
| That's 6. What else do you have a dedicated card for? 14
| cards with sign up bonuses? All at the same time, each with
| minimum spending requirements to earn that bonus?
|
| Let's add some more. I have one card that pays $25 every
| quarter that I pay off in full every month so I use it once
| every month. I have a card with rotating categories. Even
| with multiple rotating categories I don't see this going up
| past 12 cards.
| cnst wrote:
| So, basically, you're telling me I'm better off NOT
| storing my Hyatt, Marriott and IHG cards in my digital
| wallet only because I use them once every few years? Why
| exactly is that? Why not store all the cards in the
| digital wallet?
|
| It's actually a really good idea, because it's a
| different account number they gets stored on the device,
| so, even if your hotel card is compromised because of the
| hotel leak, the copy in Google Pay will remain active and
| available. So, I could use it right away on the once-
| every-two-years bonus category without any extra hassle.
| verall wrote:
| Checking and savings debit cards, plus an HSA card add 3
| more.
|
| Sure, why do I need my savings account in my apple pay?
| Why did I put the plastic savings card into my physical
| wallet? Because that's where all of my other plastic
| cards are.
|
| "The digital wallet should be able to hold all of my
| cards, even the ones I use infrequently" would certainly
| be my expectation.
| vernie wrote:
| It sounds like you're big on churning/optimizing rewards but I
| believe that you represent a tiny proportion of the population.
| The average US consumer has 4 credit cards (I only have one),
| so 6-8 slots seems like plenty.
| cnst wrote:
| What about debit cards? So, basically, you're leaving just
| one or two slots for anyone who's above average?
| krzyk wrote:
| why woukd you need so many cards?
|
| I just need one debit card and thats it.
|
| I have also a credit card that is needed by car rentals. And
| use it only there.
|
| And I don't carry around my card because it is something I can
| forget. And I always carry a phone, so why have two if I need
| only one. Not to mention limits on pinless payments are higher
| in Google/Apple pay.
| cnst wrote:
| In the US, I've even had bank representatives during a fraud
| alert call tell me I always need more than one card in case
| one is restricted in any way. (Presumably from different
| banks/issuers, too, but even a single issuer is also better
| than nothing.)
|
| What would you do if you need to rent a car, but your bank is
| down, and cannot authorise the payment?
|
| The cards I have actually pay me back in rewards for having
| them. Why would I NOT have as many as they'll give me?
|
| Most of my 20 cards come from just 3 issuers (Chase being the
| one who gave me the most cards), so, it's not even like it's
| even an issue from the management perspective, because each
| card is free (or even net negative cost) to own and operate,
| and it costs about the same amount of time to service them by
| the dozen as it would take to service just one of them.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| 8 cards is not many?? I'm doing just fine with 2 and that's
| because I'm from one country and live in another :) most people
| I know have just one
| cnst wrote:
| What would you do if it's declined or the number is
| compromised?
|
| I stopped carrying cash like 10 years ago. Even banks
| themselves recommend having more than one card just in case
| an issue occurs, to ensure you're not left stranded.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| I'm gonna drop this HN comment into the bin of "I have an
| extremely unusual need, but am totally obvlious about it, so
| this product is objectively bad for not catering to it"
|
| Normal people do not have 20 credit cards. Even people I know
| who have several cards, often only have a couple they actually
| use on a daily basis. This is not a real problem.
| ordx wrote:
| "640k of memory should be enough for anybody"
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I don't think "number of credit cards in your wallet" is
| subject to Moore's Law.
| cnst wrote:
| Why not? When you physically had to carry all of them
| around, it was simply impractical to have 20 different
| cards.
|
| If you can add all of them to a tiny device, and they all
| come from just a few banks that provide a unified
| interface to manage 10 cards at a time, and/or set them
| all up for auto-pay, then why wouldn't you want to make
| the most out of all the offers and bonuses?
| Bayart wrote:
| The entire system of credit card tie-ins is based on
| predatory debt practices. It's ingrained in US culture,
| but a lot of people on HN probably see it as a problem
| that shouldn't even have to be addressed in the first
| place. Facilitating the growth of the credit card
| ecosystem sounds like asking for trouble.
| cnst wrote:
| So, it's Apple's job to tell me how many cards I am
| allowed to have? And it's okay?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| You can have as many cards as you like.
|
| There are hardware limits on how many you can put in an
| iPhone, just like there are limits to how many you can
| stuff into a wallet. Most wallets won't fit 20 cards,
| either.
| cnst wrote:
| That's the whole purpose of the digital wallet.
|
| I fail to understand how can anyone claim that an 8-card
| limit in a digital wallet on a 32GB+ device is
| reasonable, when you can literally store more cards than
| that even in an average physical wallet.
|
| And, again, Android's NFC and Google Pay have no such
| limits.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Apple Pay cards are stored in a special piece of
| hardware. That the limit went from 8 to 12 in later
| devices implies it has fairly limited storage space.
|
| Loyalty cards are unlimited. I have dozens of those.
| cnst wrote:
| It's just another over-engineered gimmick from Apple. 12
| (10 to third-party at intro?) may be slightly better for
| an average user than 8 (7 to third-party at intro?), but
| it still means that you have to delete and re-verify
| cards all the time, which defeats the whole purpose of
| the extra security for the data.
|
| In Android Pay and now rebranded as Google Pay all
| contactless was and is unlimited. You never have to
| delete any card. You only have to re-verify the cards if
| you switch devices. That's literally how a digital wallet
| is meant to be, if you ask me.
| cnst wrote:
| You are aware that 20+ is actually the magical number of
| accounts that you're supposed to have in your credit file to
| have the best credit score?
|
| This is not even about credit cards. Debit counts, too. Say
| you have two bank accounts, an HSA account, one premium card,
| one business credit card, one everyday card, one... Oops, out
| of slots already!
|
| It sounds like you're really happy with Apple products, and
| will simply change your life around them, instead of
| demanding something better. 6+ cards is probably already the
| average for many people.
| avianlyric wrote:
| You do realise that the common understanding of a "credit
| score" is complete bollocks right?
|
| There's no single magic number thats your credit score,
| other than the one credit reference agencies provide, which
| no bank worth their salt uses, making that number
| meaningless.
|
| Banks buy credit files from reference agencies, which
| contain hundreds of different data points for each
| individual. Then the bank use their own internal models to
| calculate credit risk, or identify customers they like.
| That model will be different at every bank, and for every
| class of product they sell.
|
| If this wasn't true, then there would be no differentiation
| between lenders, other than interest rate. Leaders use
| their own secret sauce models to help them identify and
| classify specific groups of individuals that meet their
| risk appetite. And they won't just be optimising for
| repayment or profit, they'll also be looking to ensure
| their loan book is highly diverse. Ensuring they're not
| overexposed to big events (like, say, a global pandemic),
| which might disproportionately impact a subset of customers
| (such as people working in hospitality).
|
| So the idea that 20 cards is some magic number for a good
| "credit score" is just crap. And grossly underestimates
| both the diversity and complexity of credit decisioning.
| cnst wrote:
| Well, yeah, but it's 20 accounts over a period of 7 to 10
| years, which represents 2 accounts per year.
|
| That basically represents the idea customer for a bank.
| dagmx wrote:
| I don't think you're meant to have 20+ credit cards though?
| I'm struggling to think of anyone I know with 6+ active
| cards they use for payment.
|
| I'd hazard most people have two or three cards tops.
| cnst wrote:
| That's the whole point -- I can add the ones I rarely use
| to Android Pay still.
|
| For example, I have 11 Chase credit cards, and all of
| them are in Google Pay on Android. I almost never use the
| hotel ones; they simply provide other benefits for the
| annual fee, like the free hotel night for each annual fee
| renewal. But sometimes they do run bonus spend
| promotions, that's where once every year I can simply use
| those cards through Android/Google Pay on Android without
| having to worry about finding the physical card that I
| only use once a year.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| I think what you're missing is that people, in general,
| don't do that kind of point chasing.
| cnst wrote:
| But the average is already what the limit on iPhone is.
|
| This means anyone even slightly above average is already
| out.
|
| Imagine if you weren't allowed to wear tall jeans just
| because you're above average. That's what Apple does on
| the technology front.
| airstrike wrote:
| But do you really need to add all of those 20 cards to your
| digital wallet? Just carry the cards with you if you care
| so much about min-maxing the credit score game.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| If you're actively using you cards (churning [0]) then
| yes. The point of tap to pay is to prevent carrying all
| the cards, thus lightening your daily carry.
|
| [0]: https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/what-is-
| credit-c...
| FireBeyond wrote:
| So Apple and other manufacturers should optimize - and
| components should cost more - for the use case of
| _churning_, versus more everyday use?
|
| People carrying all those cards to churn or min-max their
| rewards are already paying with the inconvenience of
| managing all those accounts.
| cnst wrote:
| What inconvenience?
|
| All the Chase credits cards show up under a single login;
| you can pretty much simply login once a month a pay all 9
| or 11 of them at once. Or setup auto-pay. Or change the
| due-date to be the exact same date for all of them, so
| you only have to login and pay exactly once a month.
|
| I have all 11 of Chase credit cards in Google Pay. If I
| switch phones, they're already available for verification
| on the new phone, you don't have to type the whole number
| anymore. I keep all but 3 to 5 credit cards in a sock
| drawer; but I can still use any one of them 20 at any
| time thanks to Google Pay.
|
| When I need to use any one of my 20 cards to make a
| purchase, simply scroll through and select, based on
| picture and/or description. If vendor doesn't accept
| contactless, simply use one of the 5 physical cards I do
| carry.
|
| The only inconvenience is that it doesn't work on iPhone,
| and that's one of the reasons I don't use iPhone as a
| primary phone, because so many things don't work there.
| cnst wrote:
| Why would anyone want to carry 20 cards?
|
| Why wouldn't you want to add all the cards you have to
| your wallet? Because your $699 iPhone doesn't support the
| feature?
| thereddaikon wrote:
| Says who? I have great with only one credit card. The key
| to good credit isn't some esoteric process to game the
| system. Its having a good and long credit history.
| jandrewrogers wrote:
| I have the best credit score possible and only 2 credit
| card accounts. Empirically, there is no relationship
| between having large numbers of credit cards and having the
| best credit score.
| franga2000 wrote:
| "Not catering to it" and "refusing to allow anyone to build a
| solution, even if they're willing to put in the resources"
| are very different. On Android, if Google's wallet thing has
| a limitation I don't like, I can easily use another NFC
| payment app.
|
| Also, this isn't a missing feature but an arbitrary
| limitation, so again, Apple doesn't need to "cater to it",
| just raise an int in the source code from 6 to 20 or
| whatever.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| > Also, this isn't a missing feature but an arbitrary
| limitation, so again, Apple doesn't need to "cater to it",
| just raise an int in the source code from 6 to 20 or
| whatever.
|
| No, it's an element of the hardware design.
| cnst wrote:
| I imagine it might be a hardware limitation? I couldn't
| find any details about where it comes from. They might be
| storing private keys in physical hardware; but then why
| does each card has to have its own private key, why not
| share all of it together?
|
| It's blatantly absurd to have that much extra security for
| something that's fundamentally insecure anyways.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| I have more than 8 cards, but wasn't aware this limit was even
| a thing because there's no reason for some of them to be added
| to Apple Pay or carried around. Like the Amazon prime card,
| which exists only to be used on Amazon or various rotating
| category cards, of which typically only one or two of are
| useful at any given time and are used almost exclusively
| online.
|
| Not to say there's no legitimate use case for 8+ cards in Apple
| Pay, but I'm having a hard time envisioning it.
| SllX wrote:
| 5% back on Whole Foods purchases too. If you don't go to
| Whole Foods then I agree there's no point to keeping it in
| the Apple Wallet.
| billti wrote:
| The ONLY card I have in Apple Pay is my Amazon Prime credit
| card. It's the only credit card I have (other than my corp
| Amex, which is used once every few years for work). Every
| purchase gets you dollars on your Amazon account, so I
| actually use those rewards (versus the other "points" or
| "miles" I've had over the years and never used).
|
| To the story itself: we're at an interesting junction where
| your "phone" is absolutely a company's product and they
| should be able to define the experience, but also becoming an
| essential utility in many societies where certain limitations
| are harmful. I'm still unsure where I land on some of these
| cases.
| what_ever wrote:
| > Every purchase gets you dollars on your Amazon account,
| so I actually use those rewards (versus the other "points"
| or "miles" I've had over the years and never used).
|
| Well good for you. But there are tons of cards that give $
| directly in your bank account instead of Amazon account and
| at a better rate as well. e.g. Chase Freedom has 5%
| cashback categories every quarter that can be converted
| into real dollars at 1:1 rate. So...
| cnst wrote:
| Doesn't Amazon Prime card have benefits at Whole Foods
| Market, too? They do accept contactless.
| jsjsossse wrote:
| Seriously more than 6 cards? More than 8 if that includes
| apple? Either some flyertalk point collector or someone heading
| for troubling times when the credit runs dry
| amelius wrote:
| Can we get some more general laws to open up technologies that
| are used for the interchange of data? E.g. filesystems (FAT
| etc.), codecs (JPEG, MPEG), documents (DOC), fonts, ...
| gumby wrote:
| I didn't quite understand the initial complaint. Access to the
| NFC capability maybe; though apps can already use the NFC reader
| and writer -- I use it with my glucose monitor -- so I'm not sure
| what is being mistranslated by Reuters.
|
| As far as access to the payment system itself, I also don't quite
| understand: if you have access to the NFC interface you can can
| presumably build your own payment system (e.g. google pay could
| in theory run on the iPhone -- is that what they mean?
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Can Google Pay be made to come up automatically whenever your
| iPhone is near a payment terminal?
|
| (I"m not sure if this was the EU's complaint, but it's why _I
| 've_ always thought Apple Pay was anti-competitive.)
| gumby wrote:
| I haven't seen Apple Pay do this either, but it can be
| invoked from the Home Screen which others cannot be.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Really?! Apple Pay does for me on my 6S.
| boudin wrote:
| If I understood well, it's around using NFC for payment indeed.
|
| Developers do not get access to the low-level NFC interface but
| a set of APIs that allows to use NFC, but in a restricted way.
|
| Apple does not seem to allow developers to use contact-less
| payment, making Apple Pay a monopoly on iOS, hence the
| antirtrust case.
| smitop wrote:
| From 2014 (when NFC support was introduced) until 2017 (when
| iOS 11 was released) there was no way for 3rd party apps to use
| NFC on iOS at all; only apps by Apple could use NFC.
|
| There is still no technical ability for 3rd party payment apps
| to be able to be used from the lock screen like Apple Pay, and
| according to other comments Apple Pay has some special hardware
| access (to be able to work faster?).
| vlovich123 wrote:
| > and according to other comments Apple Pay has some special
| hardware access (to be able to work faster?).
|
| Actually it's to store the payment credentials. Basically,
| you need a SE (secure element) that's physically tied to the
| NFC chip to handle payments if you want to be able to get
| banks to issue permanent keys you can use to sign. Some
| Android phones may support this (not sure), but Android Pay
| works a bit differently in that they're issued some small
| fixed number of single use tokens for payments that expire
| every 30 days and have to do a network attestation that
| they've kept the tokens secure to refresh them. Part of the
| attestation is a confirmation that the device isn't root
| kitted (this is done via complex fingerprinting that Google
| Play Services performs to try to detect running on a root
| kitted phone).
|
| It wouldn't surprise me in this case that bank requirements
| aren't a part of how Apple structured this system as a lot of
| this was developed before the banks had their shit together
| (Apple had to use a third party to manage some crypto keys
| whereas newer iterations of the standard remove the trusted
| partner). That being said, it also wouldn't surprise me if
| Apple did this to retain a monopoly over the payment
| infrastructure in their ecosystem as that's extremely
| strategic for them in the long term (e.g. Apple Card). There
| are also UX reasons why it makes sense to do the way they did
| (at least initially) but maybe there are ways to design out
| of it to allow for 3p partners.
| DisjointedHunt wrote:
| Good! Apple has had a very weird agreement with the issuer banks
| and payment networks covered here by the WSJ
| https://archive.is/H37WU (Please, support them if you can afford
| it, they produce wonderful journalism)
|
| Tl;dr: - Banks agreed to pay Apple 0.15% of transactions
|
| - Payment networks allowed them to select which banks and which
| cards would be supported. The industry standard is, if you
| support one card you _have to_ support all
|
| - Somehow, the payment networks convinced Apple to agree not to
| compete with them by creating their own payment network in
| exchange for favorable terms
| echelon wrote:
| Apple shouldn't be allowed to boss people in the payments space
| around. They shouldn't even be in payments. They're a computer
| device.
|
| Apple is blurring all the lines and attempting to put everything
| under the Apple umbrella of products. If 50% of people use an
| iPhone, then by Apple's logic, 50% of all commerce and
| transactions can be taxed by Apple at every ingress and egress.
|
| This isn't fair and Apple needs to be shut down in this effort.
|
| Apple should have nothing to do with payments, and I hope the EU
| rips them a new one. We need to do the same back at home.
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| So hardware/software companies should never be allowed to enter
| the software services space? Or does your claim only apply to
| Apple?
| simion314 wrote:
| Apple should give everyone equal access, no special deals
| with special companies to access private APIs.
|
| If an Apple application can access an API then this API
| should be accessible to competitors.
|
| I am expecting some comment asking about security, the answer
| is Apple should have the money and talent to handle
| this(though with latest reveals security needs more
| attention). Applications can access your clipboard, your
| files, your photos , you tell the user that say "This Sudoku
| game wants access to your photos" and the user should answer
| but it would be even a better experience if the review
| process would actually work on those dudes won't just
| complain about links colors and other superficial shit.
|
| Imagine your reaction if "Only Microsoft can create
| antivirus,firewall, browser,VM software for Windows because
| security and think about my mom)
| oneplane wrote:
| Depends on the history, doesn't it? If Smart TVs started
| off with multiple built in browsers and options to even add
| your own, but now only allow the manufacturer's choice,
| that would be a problem.
|
| But they started off with one option and that was it.
|
| None of this is as simple as "everyone gets everything no
| matter the context or cost".
| simion314 wrote:
| The reality is that the group can decide that something
| that was legal before is no longer legal. I don't think
| there is a need for a new law, existing ones will be
| sufficient to show that Apple causes harm to consumers
| and the market. Even in US apple just lost a trail about
| payments, though it will be appealed I think the days for
| Apple having a payment monopoly on iOS and not allowing
| you to show a link to your website to buy directly are
| numbered. But I expect tsomeone to also claim that is
| Apple duty to delay that day and make more money for the
| shareholders.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| I think the point is that hardware manufactures should not
| close the software door on the way out to market.
| oauea wrote:
| Fully agree. The monopoly that is apple payments needs to be
| stopped. It's kind of shocking how many apple fanboys there are
| on HN that see nothing wrong with this.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| I would hazard a guess that it's less fanboyism and more
| cynicism towards and lack of trust in the software makers
| that would be creating competition. A big selling point of
| Apple platforms has been a unified experience that acts an
| escape from much of the nonsense brought by those software
| makers.
|
| In my mind the fact that support for opening up iPhones and
| the like isn't unilateral is something of an indictment of
| the larger state of the software world. When users are
| actively seeking a walled garden as a form of shelter, you
| know something with the surrounding world is messed up pretty
| badly. Yes Apple needs to do better, but so do the
| overwhelming majority of companies putting out any kind of
| software.
| techpression wrote:
| Instead of screaming "fanboys", please try to recall how
| horrible the payment platforms were before, in Sweden it was
| the literal dark ages before Apple Pay with banks and other
| vendors trying to force the most obscure and user hostile
| solutions they could come up with. Samsung Pay was of course
| another solution, but they didn't consider security to be an
| important part of the design, at least not initially.
|
| If every iPhone is going to be a gateway for terrible payment
| solutions we're in it for a world of hurt (forget wallets,
| one app and one custom solution per store, or more, will be
| the norm).
| oauea wrote:
| Not sure what you're talking about. I've been extremely
| happy with the dutch national payment system ideal for over
| a decade. I will refuse to use anything else, it is what
| everything and everyone in my country uses, and it works
| great. Apple pay just redirects to it, anyway. No sense
| letting them take their cut for not doing anything of
| value.
|
| I don't want a wallet. I just want to send money from my
| bank account, and this is already a solved problem which
| apple has no business getting their nose in.
| techpression wrote:
| They should have nothing to do with payments? And yet their
| first product is so vastly superior and more secure than any
| product offered by banks or card providers, tell me how keeping
| the status quo with plastic cards is better.
| jaywalk wrote:
| There's nothing wrong with Apple offering Apple Pay. The issue
| is that they don't allow anyone else to use the hardware in
| that way.
| jaywalk wrote:
| Does Android support broad enough third-party access to NFC to
| allow a payment system to work?
| buggeryorkshire wrote:
| Barclays do this in the UK and it's awful, no idea why they
| don't just go through GP when everybody else does.
| yosito wrote:
| Barclay's implementation of it may be awful, but I'd much
| rather use a bank's implementation directly than give Google
| direct access to information about all of my transactions.
| wmf wrote:
| Banks want to "own the customer" by providing their own
| "differentiated" UX. What they only realize later is that
| they can't develop UX that's competitive with Apple or
| Google.
| [deleted]
| merlinscholz wrote:
| It does, Volksbank Germany offers a dedicated app for NFC
| payments that does not use Google Pay
| j16sdiz wrote:
| It does. Not full access, but it can allow payment.
| cptskippy wrote:
| Yes, it has APIs for ISO 14443 parts 3 and 4 which are needed
| for implemented payment solutions.
|
| https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/nfc/...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_14443
| mrtksn wrote:
| Yes, one of my banks does support using my CC for payment by
| NFC for Android 5.0 and up. I remember this because I'm annoyed
| that they don't support Apple Pay.
|
| That said, I've seen exactly once someone using and Android
| phone to pay contactless. It was a huge pain, they tried
| multiple times.
|
| Samsung Pay's Magnetic Stripe Emulation is much cooler, it's
| like magic. Unfortunately, magnetic stripes are a legacy tech.
| cnst wrote:
| Good question.
|
| I think Wells Fargo actually did used to have their own Android
| Pay alternative within their own app, but they've discontinued
| it, and now you have to add their cards directly into Google
| Pay.
|
| If you go into "Settings", "Apps & notifications", "Advanced":
| "Default apps", "Tap & pay", then you can select either "Google
| Pay" or another app that you may have. I think "Wells Fargo"
| app used to show up there back when they supported contactless
| within their app.
| oauea wrote:
| Most of the Dutch banks have their own payment apps that work
| with NFC and traditional pin machines.
| oneplane wrote:
| And most of them suck to the point that it's easier to just
| stick the NFC card in your phone case and use it that way.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| This seems to be almost universal for banking apps. Aside
| from those of some of the huge national banks, in the US
| bank apps tend to be lowest-bidder barely functional
| junk.
| kyriakos wrote:
| I use my banks own android app to add my cards and pay via nfc
| on android. I live in an EU country where android pay is not
| available. Therefore yes android allows it.
| cosmical65 wrote:
| Yes. My bank offers NFC payments through their own app instead
| of Google Pay.
| meibo wrote:
| It does, they will show as alternative payment providers in
| Settings.
| toyg wrote:
| The AMEX app supposedly can use it, although the problem then
| becomes finding shops that support it. After a while I just
| ended up adding the card to Google Pay, which seems more
| reliable.
| airstrike wrote:
| I just wanted to say there are countless other potential EU
| antitrust charges I expected would come down the pike before I
| even imagined this one...
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