[HN Gopher] Brave and Firefox to intercept links that force-open...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Brave and Firefox to intercept links that force-open in Microsoft
       Edge
        
       Author : gbil
       Score  : 425 points
       Date   : 2021-10-04 15:31 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.ctrl.blog)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.ctrl.blog)
        
       | gespadas wrote:
       | Microsoft, there's no need to do this. I already use Edge because
       | its features and quality, don't make me regret it.
        
         | manderley wrote:
         | What quality? A buggy version of Chrome (the start page has
         | been broken multiple times, for example) with tons of half-
         | baked extra features?
        
         | _arvin wrote:
         | Well said. I use Edge in my Windows 11 VM (for Fidelity Active
         | Trader Pro) and I like Edge a lot. Might reconsider now.
        
         | Someone1234 wrote:
         | What's frustrating is that Microsoft wins by default because
         | _most_ users will never alter the defaults or even understand
         | they have that choice.
         | 
         | All this nonsense does is upset power users. Power users will
         | be annoyed but not stopped by this stuff, and by annoying them
         | you've created a negative atmosphere around your products that
         | they will share with less technical users.
         | 
         | Same thing as not allowing an "opt out" over analytics. I get
         | that the analytics are useful, but if only 0.1% of your users
         | are willing to opt out, is the negativity/fight really worth
         | influential users spending years shit-talking you?
         | 
         | Microsoft makes some really boneheaded decisions to be honest.
         | Apple is way better at the subtle sleight of hand monopolistic
         | stuff, Microsoft is like a bull in a china shop.
        
           | Daneel_ wrote:
           | Exactly! I couldn't agree more.
           | 
           | I've always said that you need to look after power users'
           | interests, because even though they're a small percentage of
           | your user base they're the ones who influence everyone else.
           | A single power user will likely influence their immediate
           | family, their classmates, work colleagues, friends,
           | relations.. easily a broad spread of people.
           | 
           | Neglect power users at your peril.
        
             | endemic wrote:
             | > Neglect power users at your peril.
             | 
             | I mean, I like this sentiment, and _want_ it to be true
             | (hey $BIGCO, I matter!). But MS has already weathered a
             | storm of bad PR regarding Win10 telemetry, and hasn't
             | changed anything. What are people going to do, stop using
             | Windows?
        
           | slim wrote:
           | Eventually MS figured out it actually those power users
           | because they were developers. So they made visual studio code
           | to lock them down like it's 1995.
        
         | anttiharju wrote:
         | I even use it on my Debian 11 install and android! It's pretty
         | good.
        
         | mongol wrote:
         | I even tried it on Linux, and liked it. But I do not accept
         | these kind of tricks there. It would be a pity if they breach
         | my trust.
        
       | supernovae wrote:
       | The only time i see this link is when visiting a customers team
       | site and its mostly because i refuse to install native teams apps
       | just to join a call.
       | 
       | I'm actually fine with having edge installed.. I have firefox and
       | chrome too.
       | 
       | There isn't a day that goes by when i Use edge that Google is
       | spamming with with popups to switch to chrome or open in chrome
       | or to try and auto-login with a google address.
        
       | leodriesch wrote:
       | It's very uncool of Microsoft to avoid the users default browser
       | and search engine choices, but I also don't like Brave
       | intercepting it, especially with their financial incentives with
       | brave search.
       | 
       | Imagine if Google would do the same. The outcry would be a lot
       | higher, because Google is a bigger company. But in this case
       | Brave is very similar to Google, just a lot smaller.
        
         | KeepFlying wrote:
         | But doesn't the interception just make it so when a URL fires
         | for the first time you get a browser picker? Or do they force
         | set it when you set your browser default?
         | 
         | If it's the former then I'm totally in favor because there's a
         | choice at least.
        
         | undecisive wrote:
         | Yeah, but most people are fine with (or at least resigned to)
         | capitalism. What they object to is a lack of choice -
         | especially when their choice is being actively subverted by a
         | huge monopolistic entity
         | 
         | (that said, if/when this feature does land, opt-in is
         | definitely the way to go for Brave to show themselves to be
         | completely non-scummy)
        
       | WallyFunk wrote:
       | The old joke:                   I only use Microsoft Edge to
       | download Chrome or Firefox
        
         | lakkal wrote:
         | I used to say that IE was just the first stage of the
         | Mozilla/Firefox installer.
        
         | birdman3131 wrote:
         | First and only website for Edge is ninite.com
        
           | judge2020 wrote:
           | Used to use Ninite but it's done some weird installs a few
           | times. WinDirStat was nowhere to be found in my start menu
           | once, and 7-Zip once had no start menu entry nor desktop
           | icon, just the files in Program Files. Nowadays I just
           | download each installer separately which also allows me to
           | manage what options I check in each of them.
        
             | dvlsg wrote:
             | I'm still hoping winget[1] catches on so I can just utilize
             | that for all the tools I typically use, but it seems like
             | it's still a ways away from being fully ready. Still making
             | progress, though.
             | 
             | [1] https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli
        
       | tempfs wrote:
       | Why use MSFT-overlayed Chrome(aka Edge) at all instead of just
       | using Chrome?
       | 
       | Edge will always lag Chrome for security matters and MSFT will
       | just be yet another surveillance layer within it.
       | 
       | Just use Firefox folks. It's fast, secure-ish and leaves you only
       | one threat actor to keep track of instead of two.
        
         | postalrat wrote:
         | I primarily use firefox but I would choose edge over chrome
         | simply because microsoft isn't completely depending on ad
         | revenue.
        
       | sabhiram wrote:
       | Talk about full circle. IE vs Netscape anyone?
        
       | lpcvoid wrote:
       | Leave it to Microsoft to be openly user-hostile in every way
       | possible, knowing perfectly well that it won't hurt their market
       | share one bit. I have no idea why people think this is a
       | different Microsoft now than it was under Ballmer.
        
         | mywittyname wrote:
         | > knowing perfectly well that it won't hurt their market share
         | one bit
         | 
         | Short-term, maybe not. Long-term...well, there's a reason
         | everyone wants a Macbook anymore.
        
           | lrem wrote:
           | Are you saying that Apple is better at openness?
        
           | mminer237 wrote:
           | Whatever advantages Apple has over Microsoft (build quality,
           | UX, polish, customer service, etc.), Apple is definitely not
           | gaining on Microsoft because of greater customization
           | options. Most OSX users just use Safari.
        
         | walrus01 wrote:
         | slightly less sweaty coked up ballmers on stage chanting
         | DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS
        
           | _arvin wrote:
           | Guy is an embarrassment to the NBA and fans all across the
           | world also. He just flat out sucks. Objectively. Money is all
           | he has.
        
             | AlexandrB wrote:
             | > Money is all he has
             | 
             | Luckily for him, in a capitalism "meritocracy" that's all
             | that matters.
        
               | _arvin wrote:
               | Hopefully not for long. Change usually happens when our
               | hands are forced
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | So we slap Microsoft's hand for trying to make people use
               | their (free) browser, and let Apple continue to print
               | money by monopolizing software and content distribution
               | on their hardware? I think we just need more stringent
               | consumer protections in general, but there's a slim
               | chance of that happening when you're as much of a CIA/FBI
               | lapdog as Apple.
        
               | recursive wrote:
               | What's a better metric to be judged on than merit?
        
               | AlexandrB wrote:
               | It's not that merit is bad. It's that money is often used
               | as a proxy for merit. If you have lots of money a common
               | default assumption is that you earned that money through
               | merit of some kind.
               | 
               | So you have phrases like: "If you're _so_ smart, why aren
               | 't _you_ rich? "
        
         | rand846633 wrote:
         | They went back from "extinguish" to "embrace&extend" so it felt
         | a bit difference for a while.
        
           | skohan wrote:
           | Yeah it seems like they just waited for a new generation of
           | consumers to grow up without knowing it is a trap. That plus
           | waiting for the regulatory environment to give up on anti-
           | trust almost entirely.
        
       | Waterluvian wrote:
       | I used Windows 10 for the first time in years and was taken aback
       | by the fact that despite Firefox being my default browser, a ton
       | of Microsofty things open in Edge anyways. For example: search a
       | term in the start menu and get the magnifying glass options for
       | looking up related terms. They all just open in Edge for me
       | anyway.
        
       | m-p-3 wrote:
       | You can make those Edge-only URL (using the "microsoft-edge:"
       | protocol/URI handler) to open in your default browser using
       | EdgeDeflector
       | 
       | https://github.com/da2x/EdgeDeflector
        
         | tephra wrote:
         | Yes the author of the article, who happens to be the author of
         | EdgeDeflector mentions this in the second paragraph...
        
           | tadbit wrote:
           | Welcome to the redditfication of hacker news. Next people
           | will only read the titles.
        
       | underscore_ku wrote:
       | stop using Windows!! no one is forcing you to use Edge on Linux
        
         | sva_ wrote:
         | It seems like there is a Linux version for it, if you do want
         | it though. It's even on the AUR.
        
         | ffhhj wrote:
         | When my Mac died I moved to Windows to escape the resource
         | hungry OS updates. When my laptop with Win 10 dies that will be
         | the end of Windows for me. Windows 11 is.. yuck!
        
       | flixic wrote:
       | I'd like to hear Microsoft's explanation for this "feature".
        
         | hacker_homie wrote:
         | I think it would be this 2nd last paragraph from the article.
         | 
         | " So, how did we get here? Until the release of iOS version 14
         | in September 2020, you couldn't change the default web browser
         | on iPhones and iPads. Google has many apps for iOS, including a
         | shell for its Chrome browser. To tie all its apps together,
         | Google introduced a googlechrome: URL scheme in February 2014.
         | It could use these links to direct you from its Search or Mail
         | app and over to Chrome instead of Apple's Safari browser."
         | 
         | Google did it first and Microsoft would like to link from its
         | settings app to its browser.
         | 
         | I'm having a hard time deciding if these are the same thing or
         | not?
        
           | deanCommie wrote:
           | > I'm having a hard time deciding if these are the same thing
           | or not?
           | 
           | Well, obviously Microsoft would say they are.
           | 
           | But any common sense evaluation of the situation would
           | recognize that Google introduced their feature to get AROUND
           | a limitation and offer customers choice (If you install
           | Chrome on iOS you're saying you want that to be your
           | browser), and Microsoft introduced the same feature to
           | INTRODUCE a limitation (In spite of any other browsers
           | installed, Microsoft is ignoring all signals and already
           | supported protocol handling capabilities to force you into
           | their browser).
           | 
           | While a pedantic techie can read this and say it doesn't
           | matter, the courts may see it differently.
        
         | Spivak wrote:
         | I would assume because MS wants to have end-to-end quality
         | control on links that are built-in to the OS.
         | 
         | This is the kind of edge case that would bother me to no end if
         | I was an OS vendor because any ole program can install itself
         | as a protocol handler. The last thing I want is to have happen
         | is clicking something in the OS opens in a broken browser or
         | doesn't open in a browser at all. And the only browser I know
         | for sure is there and works the way I want is Edge or IE. The
         | alternative is what Windows used to do is bundle (and still
         | does) is open up its own window in an IE webview.
        
           | WorldMaker wrote:
           | Seems that way to me too. In this case too it seems to be a
           | hack around Windows 10 still bundles IE11 to this day and
           | there are some situations where users (for whatever wild
           | reason such as wilting old Group Policies that should have
           | been updated half a decade ago) still have IE11 as a default
           | browser, and yet Microsoft knows from a QA perspective these
           | pages no longer work on IE11 at all.
           | 
           | On the one hand, at least this "hack" is implemented as its
           | own protocol handler ("microsoft-edge:") which is how Brave
           | and Firefox can "intercept it" (it's not like they are
           | hacking some "interceptor", they are registering for the
           | protocol just as any other protocol might see multiple
           | registrants). On the other hand it is sad that this protocol
           | was seen as necessary hack to Microsoft to get around Windows
           | 10 backwards compatibility needs and the mistake of bundling
           | IE11 with Windows 10 as a "fully supported browser for the
           | life cycle of Windows 10" rather than an optional enterprise
           | feature with an end date on the box.
        
       | indymike wrote:
       | I booted up Windows this weekend, and immediately was forced to
       | login to my MS account, and it attempted to change my default
       | browser. The solution was to reboot, pick Ubuntu from the Grub
       | menu and to then delete the Windows partition and give the space
       | to Ubuntu. I'm tired of fighting with computers I own that don't
       | work for me.
        
         | canadaduane wrote:
         | This has been my response as well. I now understand why it's so
         | important to contribute to free culture--whether operating
         | systems or hardware. (Related aside: I'm very excited to be
         | installing Pop!_OS on a frame.work laptop in a couple of weeks.
         | I know it won't be perfect, but as a software engineer I intend
         | to contribute to making things closer to perfect).
        
       | marcodiego wrote:
       | Meet the new microsoft.
        
         | JohnFen wrote:
         | ...same as the old Microsoft.
        
       | walrus01 wrote:
       | Microsoft doing exactly the same thing they were, twenty plus
       | years ago, with the IE vs Netscape browser wars. At least they're
       | consistent about being hostile. And now, of course, their main
       | competition is Chrome and Google.
       | 
       | https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=netscap...
       | 
       | I would encourage anyone who doesn't use Windows 10 on a regular
       | basis to take a look at what the 'defaults' are that Microsoft
       | steers people towards on a brand new Win10 Home installation.
       | Including the creation of a Microsoft account, bing, edge, all
       | the telemetry turned on, etc. Just... Yuck.
        
         | Spivak wrote:
         | I find it hilarious that HN assumes that MS or any company
         | should devote effort to supporting users who hate all their
         | core products and only use Windows begrudgingly. Why even
         | bother, if you could leave you already would have.
        
         | snuser wrote:
         | They are dangerously close and may be crossing the line with
         | these moves
         | 
         | mostly unavoidable bing integration, mostly unavoidable edge
         | integration, unavoidable teams integration, bing rewards in the
         | start menu
         | 
         | I'd expect lawsuits to follow in the coming months and years if
         | they don't take some steps back
         | 
         | the marketshare they retain in the desktop space still places
         | them in the classical monopoly position ( > 75%)
        
         | gsich wrote:
         | Well, seeing that Google and Apple do the same on their OS they
         | might even get through with it.
        
         | gsich wrote:
         | Well, seeing that Google and Apple do the same on their OS they
         | might even get through with it. iOS doesn't even allow
         | alternative browser backends, so the bar is not even reached
         | for MS.
        
         | josefx wrote:
         | > Microsoft doing exactly the same thing they were, twenty plus
         | years ago,
         | 
         | They never stopped, one big reason why Firefox restricts what
         | plugins users can install was Windows installing plugins that
         | could not be removed or disabled.
        
           | mywittyname wrote:
           | McAfee seems to have found a way around this. I picked up a
           | new laptop for my parents a few weeks ago and found that the
           | pre-installed crapware injects plugins to every browser you
           | install.
        
             | josefx wrote:
             | As far as I could find Mozilla is signing at least one
             | plugin by McAfee, but that at least seems to request
             | permission to run and can be disabled.
        
           | mook wrote:
           | Hmm, do you recall any details about those things? My
           | impression was that the bad extensions mostly came from the
           | antivirus vendors, but I may be missing something as I didn't
           | daily drive Windows for a period, and I'm interested in the
           | details. Thanks!
        
             | josefx wrote:
             | The case I recall was the integration of the .Net Framework
             | Assistant. The initial version installed itself after a
             | Windows update and couldn't be removed, later versions seem
             | to have fixed that.
        
         | mongol wrote:
         | I don't think they created microsoft-ie:// protocol links. In
         | some ways, this feels worse.
        
         | kelnos wrote:
         | It's really sad how quickly we all forget. I know people who
         | are a bit younger than I am, and came onto the internet in the
         | 00s, after the height of MS's anti-competitive behavior in the
         | 80s and 90s. I occasionally will talk about how I can never
         | trust MS again, but they're a lot more forgiving, and believe
         | that MS has changed, especially after Gates and Ballmer stepped
         | down and Nadella took the reins.
         | 
         | I remember a couple years ago when I bought a new laptop (with
         | Windows 10 on it). I just wanted to get into Windows far enough
         | so I could download a Debian installer and write it to a USB
         | stick, and I was appalled at Windows' first-run setup
         | experience, and the personal information it wanted me to give
         | them, as well as the sheer volume of telemetry, ads, and other
         | spyware I had to explicitly opt out of. And even then, MS was
         | still pushing Edge and Cortana in my face all over the place.
         | 
         | My last serious use of Windows was Windows 2000, and man,
         | things have gone super downhill since then.
         | 
         | I'm bummed that I was right to continue to not trust MS, but...
         | well, there we have it.
        
         | MiddleEndian wrote:
         | It's not just Windows 10 Home. I have Windows 10 Pro. The other
         | day after rebooting my laptop, I was prompted yet again with
         | that setup page that tries to enable useless shit like Office
         | 365 and change my default browser to Edge. Honestly not sure
         | how this can be legal after they got busted for something
         | relatively mundane like setting the default to IE in the past.
        
           | ffhhj wrote:
           | The difference today is that dark patterns aren't
           | monopolized.
        
           | zmmmmm wrote:
           | It's actually the main reason I despise Apple for how it
           | locks down iOS : it's not that I care specifically about
           | that, but it creates cover for this kind of thing. The bar
           | has been raised across the board now for what is tolerated.
        
           | neodymiumphish wrote:
           | Looking at past legislation/court rulings from the early days
           | of the internet is pointless. They ruled that AOL had to
           | allow other applications access to AOL IM, yet present day
           | third party apps aren't given access to Apple's iMessages or
           | Facebook Messenger.
        
         | concinds wrote:
         | Edge is messed up, in that you _cannot_ change the default
         | search engine. It only changes the search engine for the URL
         | bar, not for the new tab page (which is likely used just as
         | much). I 'm not aware of any other browser that does this. It's
         | so cartoonish that I couldn't believe it when I found out.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | mdavidn wrote:
           | You can configure the start page to use the address bar for
           | search. That takes the cake for the most-obfuscated-default-
           | search-setting, but at least the start page will send queries
           | to DDG.
        
             | manderley wrote:
             | And then Edge will pop up the "suggestion" to change the
             | search engine back to Bing with regularity.
        
         | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
         | I really wish they'd focus on just making be best HW/SW that
         | they can and respecting the user. For awhile I was rooting for
         | them, they seemed the least bad of the tech giants. I was
         | hoping they'd strategically differentiate themselves from the
         | antitrust FAAG pack (Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Google).
        
         | _arvin wrote:
         | It's such scummy behavior. Do better, Microsoft
        
           | tsol wrote:
           | To be pragmatic to an excess-- where is their incentive to? I
           | agree this is an issue, and more than that a pattern-- but
           | they seem to be any to continue unimpeded. I imagine when
           | they push initiatives like this at meetings, they consider
           | the risk- reward metric of such decisions. In this case, I
           | don't think they'll see much real risk except for some
           | grumbling as we are now
        
             | _arvin wrote:
             | Just eroded trust. Go ahead. Support that kind of behavior
             | 
             | Choice over force
        
           | pierrebai wrote:
           | You mean rely and hope that whatever the user installed as
           | the default browser will not mess-up help, documentation and
           | other such links?
           | 
           | I'm quite certain that all those non-standard URLs are all
           | for internal links to OS-related information hosted on the
           | web. If they instead just popped a custom app that hosted an
           | Edge webview nobody would rip their shirts. Doing that would
           | be ridiculous given that Edge is just there and has been
           | tested and vetted by QA.
           | 
           | Don't forget that these things need to work on all versions
           | of the OS and in all locales. You're asking MS to trust that
           | any 3rd party app will give proper user experience for any
           | locale when presenting such links.
           | 
           | It's not as-if MS was hijacking normal URLs. But ripping
           | shirts is soooo much fun.
        
             | _jal wrote:
             | So the claim is that if I make up a URL scheme, it should
             | be untouchable by other developers and only my software
             | should respond to it?
             | 
             | > Don't forget that these things need to work on all
             | versions of the OS and in all locales.
             | 
             | You are confusing Microsoft with their users. Microsoft
             | needs that. No user does, and very few need more than one
             | version and one locale.
             | 
             | > But ripping shirts is soooo much fun.
             | 
             | Right, there is no competitive aspect at all to see here,
             | just hardworking monks trying to ensure the absolute best
             | Windows experience with no other motives whatsoever.
        
             | Dylan16807 wrote:
             | > I'm quite certain that all those non-standard URLs are
             | all for internal links to OS-related information hosted on
             | the web.
             | 
             | You definitely shouldn't be certain of that. If I go open a
             | folder and hit F1, I get an edge bing search for [get help
             | with file explorer in windows] . The special embed at the
             | top is a blog post on a site I've never heard of explaining
             | that the question mark in the top right is for help. If I
             | click that icon, _it opens another bing tab with the same
             | search_. Below that embed is completely normal search
             | results for [get help with file explorer in windows] . It
             | 's actively worse than ddg and google.
        
             | manderley wrote:
             | They're not all for internal links to OS-related
             | information hosted on the web, though. The start menu
             | search will always open a Bing search in Edge, for example
             | - doesn't matter what your default search is set to.
             | 
             | Why are you writing with certainty about things you
             | apparently have no firsthand experience with?
        
               | verall wrote:
               | This. It's absolutely infuriating. Honestly my browser
               | defaults were broken for so long I assumed it was just
               | that.
        
         | BiteCode_dev wrote:
         | Apple does the same, no?
        
           | warning26 wrote:
           | Apple is fine on macOS -- changing your default browser is a
           | simple setting. Their behavior on iOS, though (outright
           | preventing installation of other browsers) should be illegal,
           | IMO.
        
             | blowski wrote:
             | I think the OP was referring to the practice of
             | "encouraging" users to sign up for iCloud, buy an Apple
             | Watch, iPhone, iPad, Apple Music, Apple TV, Apple Arcade...
             | and use Apple Sheets, Apple Mail, Apple News, Apple Maps,
             | iMovie, Garage Band, etc.
             | 
             | I'm sure they would argue they're just providing a seamless
             | experience for users, but I imagine there's a tiny bit of
             | business interest in there as well.
        
               | skohan wrote:
               | Apple tries to sell you, but I feel like they are better
               | on dark patterns. Whenever I use Windows, I feel like I
               | have to be actively on-guard against the OS subverting my
               | intentions. There are a lot of problems with the Apple
               | ecosystem, but that isn't really one of them.
        
             | blacksmith_tb wrote:
             | 'Fine' is generous I would say, Big Sur likes to throw up
             | notifications inviting me to 'try the new Safari' because
             | FF is my default browser. That's not miles from the way MS
             | is behaving with Edge.
        
             | TedDoesntTalk wrote:
             | Have you tried changing the default app for .docx files? It
             | just does not work. Right click on a .docx file in Finder.
             | Hold down the Option key and you'll see "Open With" change
             | to "Always Open With". Select LibreOffice or whatever you
             | want. OK, that file now opens with LireOffice. But no
             | other. WTF?
             | 
             | This is no "simple setting" and is the same BS that MS
             | does.
        
           | i_cannot_hack wrote:
           | I've never had any url open in Safari instead of the default
           | browser on macOS.
        
           | bogwog wrote:
           | Oh, well, in that case it's okay.
        
           | Someone1234 wrote:
           | Yes.
           | 
           | Ultimately though regardless of who is doing it, it is user
           | hostile and needs to stop. Apple restricting browser engines
           | on iOS doesn't somehow make Microsoft's steering and
           | suppression of other browsers on Windows acceptable.
           | 
           | The US needs much better consumer protections.
        
           | pdpi wrote:
           | Not quite, no.
           | 
           | As a user, Apple allows you to change your default browser in
           | both iOS and macOS quite easily.
           | 
           | As a developer you can build a browser on top of whatever
           | rendering engine you want, as long as you want to use the
           | built-in WebKit.
           | 
           | Crucially, they are plenty clear about what is, or isn't
           | allowed (well, mostly -- plenty of app review horror stories
           | around here), and all of that happens in the interaction with
           | developers. The user experience is always pretty decent, and
           | you don't have to deal with this whole "do this in 10
           | locations" nonsense.
        
           | notriddle wrote:
           | Not really. In the Apple ecosystem, stuff either works or it
           | doesn't. iOS doesn't let you install alternative browser
           | engines. macOS does. Both of them let you use a browser shell
           | of your choice.
           | 
           | None of this "you can install a browser, but we're going to
           | lie cheat and steal to stop you" dark patterns nonsense. As a
           | user, Apple just tells you No, and you get to decide if you
           | want to live with that or not.
        
           | _joel wrote:
           | I'm not aware of any links that force open in Safari?
        
             | kenny11 wrote:
             | Go to the Finder and choose "See What's New in macOS" from
             | the help menu. Always opens in Safari regardless of what
             | the default browser is.
        
               | jefftk wrote:
               | Confirmed. On my mac it opens
               | https://help.apple.com/macos/big-sur/whats-new/ in
               | Safari.
        
             | smt88 wrote:
             | On iOS, all links open in Safari because Apple doesn't
             | allow any other browser. The "alternatives" are just
             | wrappers.
             | 
             | So Apple is actually worse than Microsoft.
        
               | kitsunesoba wrote:
               | Third party browsers on iOS use the same web engine as
               | Safari (WebKit) but critically, do not wrap Safari
               | itself. In principle third party iOS browsers are no more
               | wrappers of Safari than fully independent desktop Linux
               | browsers built with WebKit like Epiphany/GNOME Web and
               | Midori.
               | 
               | The various Chromium based browsers are much closer to
               | being Chrome wrappers than, say, Firefox for iOS is a
               | Safari wrapper because the latter has totally unique code
               | for UI, interactions, password management, etc whereas
               | the former is literally just Chromium with a few surface
               | level changes.
               | 
               | Apple could stand to allow third party web engines either
               | way (perhaps with strict performance requirements, to not
               | destroy user batteries), but I think the distinction
               | matters.
        
             | walrus01 wrote:
             | a recent macos installation fresh configuration _does_ try
             | to steer you towards using safari several times with popups
             | and reminders.
        
               | _joel wrote:
               | Steering and forcing are two different things
        
               | _arvin wrote:
               | Lol, yes, it _is_ their flagship browser for all of their
               | operating systems. I would sure hope that would be the
               | default behavior or else I'd be getting a lot of phone
               | calls from family members.
               | 
               | Edit: mods quickly downvoting my comment. Okay. Will tell
               | Paul Graham.
               | 
               | Edit 2: every HN comment should lack any emotion or
               | anything. Just robotic comments. Got it.
               | 
               | Edit 3: Do better.
               | 
               | Edit 4: HN bubble thinks they're above everyone else.
               | Have a good one.
        
           | _arvin wrote:
           | You get to choose which app is default app in iOS 15 and 14
           | as well I believe and maybe even before that. Not forced,
           | just the default.
        
             | ivegotnoaccount wrote:
             | I may be mistaken but I recall reading several times that
             | even though you can choose another app as the browser, all
             | those apps are forced to use WebKit as the engine.
        
               | twobitshifter wrote:
               | That's correct, but the engine restriction doesn't force
               | people to use Safari and it's possible to use either
               | Chrome or Firefox front-ends. Apple wants to control the
               | browser engine for a couple reasons:
               | 
               | - if you're charitable: security.
               | 
               | - If you're uncharitable: blocking the ability to
               | undermine the App Store.
        
               | ivegotnoaccount wrote:
               | I know. I simply wanted to highlight the likely cause for
               | parent's message downvotes, as none of the downvoters did
               | it and things went quite sour in the sibling thread.
        
             | _arvin wrote:
             | Look at the downvoted coming. Wow. 10 points loss in like
             | 30 minutes. Pathetic forum. Have fun in you echo chambers.
             | You're no better than Reddit with the Gen Z crowd taking
             | over. Congratulations, HN mods. Telling Paul Graham.
        
               | _arvin wrote:
               | Volunteers with no purpose and meaning in life stifling
               | discussion in a forum. Because of their bogus forum
               | rules. Have fun downvoting this one too, mod. Telling
               | Paul Graham about you.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | Shared404 wrote:
               | Get a life.
               | 
               | Saying something that gets you downvoted isn't something
               | to be proud of, or ashamed of.
               | 
               | Go troll someplace else, and stop wasting my bandwidth
               | with your complaints about nothing please.
        
               | _arvin wrote:
               | You're a pathetic loser. Just want you to know that.
               | Cheers.
        
               | Shared404 wrote:
               | Someone once told me not to take criticism from someone I
               | wouldn't take advice from ;)
        
               | samcal wrote:
               | As curious as I am about what you think snitching to Paul
               | Graham would accomplish here, the comment is likely
               | downvoted because it undersells the importance and
               | stickiness of defaults for most customers.
        
               | _arvin wrote:
               | Was kidding about telling Paul Graham. Ain't a snitch
               | 
               | Thanks btw for blocking my IP, HN mods
               | 
               | Typing from my cell connection. Block this one too.
               | Censorship is awesome.
        
         | wpietri wrote:
         | Monopolies don't see themselves like a normal business, one
         | that has to compete for customers by serving them well.
         | Instead, their thinking is more like a cattle rancher: the
         | users are their property, to pen and milk as they see fit.
        
           | the_snooze wrote:
           | Between hostile defaults, dark patterns in opting-out and
           | unsubscribing, and persistent surveillance, a lot of
           | consumer-facing tech these days is taking on what an
           | obsessive abusive partner would do. I can't help but wonder
           | if these systems are a reflection of who those designers are
           | as people.
        
       | JohnFen wrote:
       | The more I learn about Windows 11, the more I think it's not fit
       | for purpose.
        
       | passivate wrote:
       | Can someone explain where these links are located? I don't think
       | I've ever come across one.
        
       | CyberShadow wrote:
       | Devil's advocate: if the link is in a Windows component, then it
       | would somewhat make sense that clicking the link would open it in
       | a first-party application which the OS vendor can control. If the
       | association with http: URLs somehow got messed up (e.g. the
       | default web browser got broken due to something outside
       | Microsoft's control), you'd be in a worse situation than if the
       | Control Panel etc. used a simpler but fully supported first party
       | web browser.
        
         | zamadatix wrote:
         | Core help links in Windows used to use an embedded version of
         | the system browser (at the time IE) originally
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Compiled_HTML_Help. If
         | they wanted to do that today for the above reasons they could
         | do the same with WebView2 which is the OS embedded version of
         | Edge. Instead they are launching the external instance of Edge
         | which can still be screwed up for reasons outside the OS's
         | control (such as an experimental edge://flags option that
         | causes a crash on launch).
        
       | smolgumball wrote:
       | I've started using Account Surfer on Windows to avoid this issue,
       | as well as the general workflow issue of "I want to open any link
       | I click in one of many browsers." The developer has also been
       | very responsive to emails, bug reports and feature requests.
       | 
       | https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/account-surfer/9phvp9rjr7r...
        
       | dbg31415 wrote:
       | Really easy way to fix a lot of that crap.
       | 
       | https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
        
         | zamadatix wrote:
         | Also be prepared for random shit to break e.g. disable Cortana
         | and discover it's what did Start Menu indexing.
         | 
         | OTOH if you already know what things are officially toggleable
         | (e.g. tips and tricks in the Start Menu) and stick to those
         | then the UI in this is much faster than going through Settings
         | or gpedit manually.
        
       | comeonseriously wrote:
       | Just wait. I thought Microsoft had changed, that they were
       | different now.
       | 
       | I guess not...
        
         | Lev1a wrote:
         | Truth is... the game was rigged from the start...
        
       | siproprio wrote:
       | > Brave Software is also considering taking things one step
       | further. The company is planning to intercept Windows
       | Search/Cortana links to Bing and redirect them to its users'
       | default search engine instead.
       | 
       | Yes! THANK YOU! OH MY GOD THANK YOU BRAVE!! FINALLY!
        
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       (page generated 2021-10-04 23:00 UTC)