[HN Gopher] Met Police: Run away, call 999 if you feel danger wh...
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Met Police: Run away, call 999 if you feel danger when stopped by
lone officer
Author : jakelazaroff
Score : 36 points
Date : 2021-10-02 21:13 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.lbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.lbc.co.uk)
| thom wrote:
| One could spend a lot of time plumbing the depths of such a
| contemptible statement. But all I'll say is this: if your
| organisation is ever even tangentially party to some act of evil,
| don't do this. Do the other thing.
| eynsham wrote:
| We should put such suggestions (and indeed so should any other
| jurisdiction) on a statutory footing if we are serious about
| them. This means, minimally--
|
| 1. use of bodycams
|
| 2. to record the furnishing of identity
|
| 3. when requested
|
| should be required before any power exercisable only by police
| may be used (self defence, arrests of persons in flagrante
| murdering people and so on are I think not really limited to
| police), and no offence of obstruction &c. should be committed if
| the requirement above is not met.
| concordDance wrote:
| Body cams don't feel practical for undercover police. Too
| easily seen if they have a good view.
| type_Ben_struct wrote:
| The whole chain of events that led to this advice is so sad. Rest
| in peace Sarah.
|
| My view is that undercover police should have a surveillance only
| role. Arresting or even approaching members of the public should
| be reserved for uniformed officers.
| orwin wrote:
| Arresting yes, but approaching and stopping IF necessary (and
| that mean justifying it in the report) the public should be OK.
|
| In the first world countries, we need classes to learn how to
| deal with state force/judicial power. I usually read a lot
| about "teach economics to poor famillies", but we would be
| better served if we understood the law and our right before 30.
| wackro wrote:
| I think the state of the police force at the moment is very
| much all hands on deck. Would be very expensive to have a large
| part of the force unable to act.
| danenania wrote:
| Some sort of smartphone app to scan and verify badges via a
| PKI might be the best solution. There isn't much to stop
| someone with bad intentions from impersonating an officer,
| uniformed or not. Every non-emergency police encounter should
| begin with validation.
| strange_things wrote:
| The UK is a joke. You are not allowed to even defend yourself
| with more than your keys.
| jackyinger wrote:
| Woah, in the US that'd likely you get killed regardless of skin
| color.
|
| Any UK folks around to comment on whether this advice is actually
| usable there?
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| I think there's a specific condition where this advice applies,
| FTA:
|
| "It would be extremely unusual for an officer in plain clothes
| to be working alone. If they are, they should be calling for
| assistance with other officers arriving very soon. This is
| standard practice."
|
| So, don't run away from uniformed officers, don't run away from
| multiple officers.
|
| To your point, I'm reminded of Nicole Harper, whose vehicle was
| flipped by an officer's pit maneuver as she continued down the
| road lookong for a safe place to pull off the highway, hazards
| flashing, just as the police department's own "drivers license
| study guide" advises.
|
| https://jalopnik.com/cop-flips-pregnant-womans-while-she-tri...
| willyt wrote:
| For a well dressed white person it would be sensible advice but
| I'm not so sure how well it would pan out for a black guy at
| 3am in Tottenham or even a white kid in a shell suit in
| Castlemilk for that matter. You almost certainly wouldn't be
| killed, but you probably would get chased and tackled to the
| ground and it would be up to the interpretation of the police
| officer, prosecutor and ultimately judge or jury as to wether
| it was a reasonable thing for you to do or if you were just
| trying to use the Everard case as an excuse.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I've found police in the UK are generally harder to provoke
| than in the US. However it only takes one bad cop having a bad
| day for things to go sideways fast.
|
| At risk of sparking a controversy, I do think the UKs tighter
| gun control laws help. It means fewer people are carrying guns
| and thus fewer officers need to be armed. Sure, there's still
| the other deterrents -- which can be nasty too. But guns can
| causes a situation to escalate so much faster so mostly
| removing that from the equation must help matters.
| tonylemesmer wrote:
| It would probably be fine as long as you do it calmly and don't
| make any crazy sudden moves. The current climate would make it
| even easier. But I'm not a habitual law breaker so not really
| into running away from cops. By 'running away' I take that to
| mean move yourself calmly to a more public / busier area rather
| than obviously trying to disappear into the night.
|
| Edit [I'm from the UK and offering a UK perspective. I have
| been accosted calmly by UK police and I have UK friends who are
| officers.]
| lovich wrote:
| If you're in the US at least then you are pretty much
| guaranteed to be a daily, habitual law breaker.
|
| You just don't habitually get the law enforced on you
| tonylemesmer wrote:
| People disagreeing with my comment should realise I'm not
| saying that anything you could do would save you from the
| fate that Sarah Everard suffered. A determined rogue cop can
| still kill you. Anyone can kill you. The Met's advice isn't
| helpful. But moving to a busier area as briskly and
| unprovocatively as possible could save you.
| lovich wrote:
| I'm again speaking from a US perspective but there is no
| situation here where moving away from the police is not
| considered provocative from their viewpoint.
|
| I would fully expect to be choked, body slammed, and cuffed
| if I attempted to walk away from the cops. I live in a
| fairly affluent area and am not a minority and still have
| seen local cops do things like start screaming at people
| for not maintaining eye contact, or in a particular notable
| event an off duty not in uniform cop who ran a car off the
| road and pulled a gun on them for not giving them right of
| way in a traffic circle.
|
| If you have cops that would let you move to a safer
| location after they interact with you, it's nearly
| unbelievable from our experiences
| kawsper wrote:
| There's was a deaf man in the US that got shocked with
| electroshock weapon for not responding to officers,
| https://www.npr.org/2021/09/29/1041562502/deaf-man-tased-
| pol...
| tokai wrote:
| Even that can be deadly. One screw up in a game of Simon Says
| with an unhinged cop and you're dead.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver
| BoorishBears wrote:
| A pregnant woman had her car flipped with a (horribly
| performed) PIT maneuver after she tried to make it to an exit
| before pulling over.
| woodruffw wrote:
| "Running away" is itself the rough opposite of "do[ing] it
| calmly and [not making] any crazy sudden moves," at least in
| the eyes of the police.
|
| The idea that you can "calmly" run away from a rogue cop
| isn't compatible with their expectations.
| tonylemesmer wrote:
| You can communicate with them as you're doing it you know.
| You can shout or wave to let them know you're aware they're
| cops etc. English police and USA police are not the same.
| [deleted]
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| At least in my home town (central Illinois), our drivers
| education instructor actually taught this. If you're being
| pulled over in podunk nowhere, turn on your hazards, reduce
| your speed, and proceed to the next well populated area (I.e.
| gas station).
| droidist2 wrote:
| I always was told this too but I've never had the courage to
| actually do it. I'd be afraid the cop would be angry and
| treat me more harshly when I finally do pull over. There was
| recently a case of a pregnant woman doing this and the police
| performed a PIT maneuver and flipped her car.
|
| https://www.news10.com/news/national/pregnant-woman-sues-
| ark...
| akudha wrote:
| I wonder if this will work in the U.S. I remember reading a story
| on Reddit - this woman drove half mile more (night time) before
| stopping for a cop, because she wanted to stop in a well lit
| area. He arrested her for this, even though she had done nothing
| else wrong.
| danenania wrote:
| Many (most?) traffic stops are pointless and create unnecessary
| risk on both sides of the encounter. If it's just moderate
| speeding, a tail light is out, rolling through a stop sign, or
| another low-level infraction, send a fine in the mail--with
| perhaps a little blast of the sirens to inform the driver.
| Stops should be reserved for grossly reckless driving or clear
| signs of intoxication.
| 0x737368 wrote:
| Stopping gives the police officer a chance to find something
| else
| danenania wrote:
| Yeah that's what happens in practice, but it's not a good
| use of police resources. Road policing should be focused on
| keeping the roads safe, not fishing for unrelated crimes.
| The cost-benefit for society _and_ the police on these
| stops is terrible.
| colechristensen wrote:
| And with the frequency with which police find unregistered
| guns locally making traffic stops, I fully support this. It
| baffles me the repeated efforts locally to "reform"
| policing involve stopping these kinds of police activities
| to seem more fair or something... Don't get me wrong there
| are some really shady tactics in this realm police do use
| and having the job biases you towards certain assumptions,
| but still. Criminals are stupid, please keep giving them
| the opportunity to give themselves up by speeding in
| unregistered cars, etc.
| gus_massa wrote:
| Would you be happy if this random search is extended to
| homes? What about a lottery every morning where they pick
| some random point in the map and they go to the home and
| make a search? What about searching homes because they
| have a broken light in the porch?
| danenania wrote:
| It's not worth it when you have both innocent people and
| cops themselves frequently getting killed as a result.
| There are plenty of other ways to catch stupid criminals
| that don't carry the same risks.
|
| These practices also create a generally high level of
| fear and animosity toward police which isn't good for
| anyone.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| There was a case a bit ago where a cop flipped a pregnant
| woman's car, even though she had turned her lights flashing and
| wasn't speeding up (indicating she likely wanted to find a safe
| place to stop, since it was on the highway).
| grayhatter wrote:
| Dont forget the part where there was no shoulder, and
| barriers prevent pulling off of the highway.
| [deleted]
| akudha wrote:
| Fuck :( Do you know what happened to her? I'm guessing
| nothing happened to the cop?
| grayhatter wrote:
| If it's the one I know about he was fired (eventually), and
| she won her lawsuit for emotional distress. Thankfully she
| didn't file for any physical injuries.
|
| There's other similar cases with less ideal outcomes but
| they're not as obviously unreasonable as the popular one
| every one mentions.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| seems the most recent article is June 24, the state is
| backing up the officer:
|
| " The 15-page answer to the suit by Rutledge senior
| assistant attorney general Jennifer Merritt states that
| Dunn did nothing wrong and further asserts that he is
| entitled to immunity under the state and federal
| constitutions."
|
| https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/24/troopers-
| tra...
|
| there is no accountability for cops in USA
| no_butterscotch wrote:
| Not to be insensitive, but this advice/policy and the press
| around the rape-murder of the woman seem out of line.
|
| How many officers are doing this in the UK? It seems like it's
| gotten a lot of press because of how unusual it is.
|
| A lot more people die from everyday thugs, relatives/lovers, etc.
| Is making people terrified of the police good in the long run?
| helge9210 wrote:
| > How many officers are doing this in the UK?
|
| All of them? It's UK -- guilty until proven innocent.
| grayhatter wrote:
| I'm not sure it's unreasonable for a police agency to provide
| guidance for people who could be afraid of the police. People
| who fear police have worse outcomes than thoes that dont. They
| have a vested interest in creating positive outcomes. Reminding
| people it's reasonable to run from someone in plainclothes
| claiming they have authority when they're making you afraid is
| a good idea.
| adriancr wrote:
| It applies to plainclothes policemen...
|
| Basically a random person stopping/coming up to you and saying
| they're police asking for id and to search you / whatever...
|
| I've personally had an encounter like this long time ago where
| I just ran away, was stopped by uniformed officers a small
| distance away, explained I was scared and just got a thorough
| search / left alone.
|
| You would be wise to be afraid in situations like this,
| especially in dark areas. If someone asks for ID or time,
| light, etc, it's likely a pretense to get close enough to mug
| you. (see if phone is worth it, or in the past if there's money
| in wallet)
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Then one of the eyewitnesses identified a policeman as one of the
| suspects. The next night, the chief of police was on the panel.
| He said, "Now, girls, whatever happens, do not stop for a police
| officer. Stay in your car. If a police officer tries to stop you,
| do not stop. Keep driving and under no circumstances should you
| get out of your car." For a few weeks, half the traffic in L.A.
| was doing twice the speed limit.
|
| -- Laurie Anderson, "New Jersey Turnpike"
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| I think the article is missing some essential pieces of
| information.
|
| After a high profile case of a MET officer kidnapping and
| murdering a woman through the use of his status, the MET has
| decided that all plain clothes officers will work in tandem. So
| you should never be stopped by a lone plain clothes officer.
| baybal2 wrote:
| There should be no plainclothes officers in duty.
|
| An officer uniform should be easy to identify exactly to
| prevent confusion in cases like somebody being arrested in the
| middle of the street.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| There are legitimate cases for officers to be working plain-
| clothed -- crowd monitoring and investigators needing to keep
| a low profile for example.
| xoa wrote:
| Do you think a potentially improved tweak to baybal2's
|
| > _There should be no plainclothes officers_ on duty.
|
| might be "there should be no plainclothes officers with
| _regular police arrest powers_ "? I agree that there are
| certainly cases where it's valuable to have officers
| working undercover. I also think there is a strong argument
| though that while they are in plain clothes, they should
| also have more restricted "plain clothes powers" more like
| a regular civilian. They shouldn't be able to arrest anyone
| or demand special recognition as police, or at least to no
| greater extent then what any random citizen can do in a
| Citizen's Arrest [0]. That could tamper a certain amount of
| abuse and room for mixups while still preserving the
| valuable investigative and monitoring aspects. Basically if
| they want to surrender some of the typical recognition and
| accountability they must also surrender some of the power
| that goes with it, so it's more self-regulating. Feels like
| a parallel with other areas of force like military, where
| in general legitimate combatants justified in full
| protection of the laws of war also must have identifiable
| uniforms and so on.
|
| ----
|
| 0: Rules vary by state and country. In the US at least in
| general (though not all states) citizens may do arrests,
| but there are much stricter requirements. They need to
| directly witness the crime, they do not have qualified
| immunity and aren't entitled to the same mistakes of fact
| when it comes to personal liability, and are much more
| limited in use of force.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| No, I don't think it would serve a useful purpose. The
| police arrest power in the UK is already quite limited
| and unlawful arrests are taken seriously.
|
| I don't think there is much to gain here.
| MozMorris wrote:
| Further context for those who may not be aware:
| https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/30/sarah-everar...
| rsj_hn wrote:
| Yes, that the hn headline does not have 'officer' in quotes (as
| the linked headline does) is quite misleading and a violation
| of hn guidelines. Is there a way to page @dang :)
| oh_sigh wrote:
| But a Met police officer is still a Met police officer, even
| if they aren't acting in any kind of official capacity. This
| isn't a situation where someone impersonated an officer and
| killed the lady - a real police officer did it.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| The article title has 'officer' in quotes but the HN title
| does not. That dramatically changes the meaning.
| jsnell wrote:
| Yes, but the meaning in the HN title is obviously the
| correct one. The concern here is not about a fake
| officer. It is about a real one. Why do you think that
| the quotes are justified?
| [deleted]
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(page generated 2021-10-02 23:02 UTC)