[HN Gopher] Revenge Bedtime Procrastination
___________________________________________________________________
Revenge Bedtime Procrastination
Author : monkey_monkey
Score : 251 points
Date : 2021-09-28 13:08 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (annehelen.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (annehelen.substack.com)
| SeanFerree wrote:
| Excellent article!!
| kritiko wrote:
| Ed Zitron just wrote about this, and I agree with him:
|
| _The whole conversation around "revenge bedtime procrastination"
| is a frustrating example - it is the idea that we are staying up
| late doing things we want to do instead of going to bed, which is
| otherwise known as "being a person." I've seen several different
| articles about it, going into depths about "the why" of people
| staying awake doing stuff before bed. The answer is probably that
| they're intellectually stimulated by the thing they're doing and
| like doing it and are more interested in the thing than going to
| sleep. Big deal! But it's now yet another codified entity for
| people to chew over and ask themselves about - am I "revenge
| bedtime procrastinating?" A take that seems profound and
| thoughtful, but is laser-focused on being shared by people saying
| "hey, I also do stuff instead of going to bed!" Entire articles
| now exist of people talking about why they stay awake instead of
| sleeping, as if that's new, or thoughtful. And now people have a
| new term for something that didn't need a term, and can bring
| intellectualism to "I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The
| Spire."_
|
| https://ez.substack.com/p/hot-takes-and-the-new-portable-int...
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Maybe more people are staying up past what is healthy as part
| of the greater breakdown in work-life balance as part of the
| pandemic. Also see the flood of articles about burnout. The
| pandemic is a very real material change, with very real
| material effects on labor, see the great resignation. So
| revenge bedtime procrastination is not just a media-invented
| bugbear, but quite possibly part of a very real change that has
| occurred over the past two years.
| a13n wrote:
| > it is the idea that we are staying up late doing things we
| want to do instead of going to bed, which is otherwise known as
| "being a person."
|
| When you are hungry, you get angry more easily. This is also
| known as "being a person". But knowing this fact helps you
| realize when you are only angry because you're hungry, which
| can help you avoid conflicts with friends/family.
|
| Understanding the science behind "being a person" is valuable
| in improving your daily life. Understanding why people revenge
| bedtime procrastinate can help people avoid doing so.
|
| > The answer is probably that they're intellectually stimulated
| by the thing they're doing and like doing it and are more
| interested in the thing than going to sleep.
|
| This isn't the answer. There's a strong correlation between
| hours worked / stress level and likelihood of staying up too
| late. This is why "revenge" bedtime procrastinate is such a
| fantastic description. You're getting revenge on your
| workaholic attitude. You spent too much time doing things you
| didn't want to do, so you're protesting by staying up late
| doing things you do want to do.
|
| > And now people have a new term for something that didn't need
| a term, and can bring intellectualism to "I stayed up until 1am
| playing Slay The Spire."
|
| Just because you don't experience something yourself and you
| don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
| gowld wrote:
| Interesting. Someone should start a scientific inquiry into
| human mental state and behavior. HN engineer types would love
| it. We could call it "brainology".
|
| More seriously:
|
| > staying up late doing things you do want to do.
|
| That's not revenge procrastination.
|
| Revenge procrastination, and why it's bad, is "staying up
| late doing things you know isn't good for you, out of spite
| and a desperate need for a sense that you are in control of
| your time"
| a13n wrote:
| What you want to do and what you know isn't good for you
| can be the same thing. Consider cigarettes or alcohol as
| obvious examples.
| nextaccountic wrote:
| The problem here is what "want" means. When we want an
| heroin dose because we are craving it, but we also want to
| stop because it's fucking with us, what do you want?
|
| Is "want" related to your long term goals, or short term
| desires?
| pdpi wrote:
| With all due respect, this is nonsense written by someone who
| doesn't deal with this problem.
|
| This argument comes from people seeing movement from A to B,
| and assuming all movement from A to B is identical. This
| particular pattern is that they're motivated to _move toward_ B
| (and the fact they started at A is incidental), and can 't
| understand that other people can move from A to B because
| they're motivated to _move away_ from A (and ending up at B is
| irrelevant). For an extreme example: A Saudi man and a Saudi
| woman both moving to Norway. The man might be motivated to move
| towards a country with snow where he can ski, while the woman
| is motivated to move away from somewhere where she has limited
| rights.
|
| I understand (and sometimes fall prey to) the stereotypical
| Civilization "one more turn" phenomenon, and have e.g. booked
| holidays and pulled an all-nighter to power through a new
| Warcraft expansion or some such nonsense -- a clear case of
| "movement toward". But I also have anxiety issues, and this
| sort of "movement away from" procrastination is very much part
| of how it manifests itself. The two are distinct things that
| feel very, very different internally.
|
| Ultimately, I don't actually care what it is that I'm doing,
| scrolling through reddit or playing a game, or even tidying up
| the house. I might even be exhausted and struggling to stay
| awake -- the point is I don't want to go to bed, because high
| anxiety usually triggers my brain going into uncomfortable
| thoughts when I go to bed, and because going to bed puts me
| that much closer to the next day's anxieties and stresses.
|
| A different (and ultimately unhealthy) sort of "movement
| toward" is the choice to not go to bed as an act of self
| determination by way of rebellion. Sort of "I don't feel in
| control so I exercise control on the one thing I feel I can,
| consequences be damned". The important part isn't the thing
| you're doing, it's that you're choosing to do it. AIUI, self-
| harm works along these same lines.
|
| In short: please don't patronise people struggling with real
| problems by telling them they're just over-intellectualising
| things.
| rosstex wrote:
| >going to bed puts me that much closer to the next day's
| anxieties and stresses
|
| Rarely is this cycle of self-harm behavior expressed so
| plainly. Sorry you are dealing with this.
| blacktriangle wrote:
| With no due respect, Ed Zitron nailed this. Only a generation
| as devoid of meaning in their life as our current one could
| turn watching Netflix before bed into some idea that they're
| part of the cultural zeitgiest reaching out for collective
| labor action.
| SyzygistSix wrote:
| Bingo. Life devoid of meaning because we spend most of it
| working, and the work doesn't have much meaning or do much
| for many people other than allow them to survive... to work
| another day. Sure, we could pretend that the people who
| don't find meaningful work are just not as good as those
| that are able to find meaningful work. Or we could decide
| that life isn't about work. Which does indeed begin to look
| like collective action is called for.
| blacktriangle wrote:
| If you need collective action to find meaning in life
| you're already screwed.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Collective action has been employed to fulfill every
| other step of Maslow's hierarchy, why not the capstone?
| toyg wrote:
| _> A different (and ultimately unhealthy) sort of "movement
| toward" is the choice to not go to bed as an act of self
| determination by way of rebellion._
|
| This is actually what I've been doing pretty much my whole
| adult life. Revenge Bedtime Procrastination gives it a name
| and a framework to express the problem and (maybe) face it -
| which is something I found really exciting in the linked
| article (before the political angle was shoehorned in).
| haswell wrote:
| This is really well stated and resonates with me deeply.
|
| The "doing things I don't even want to do" aspect of this is
| what also separates this from "just staying up late".
|
| For me, I've had some vague notion of trying to build a time
| buffer between today and tomorrow. Something to separate
| today's stress from tomorrow's stress.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Regardless of the people struggling with actual problems,
| most people are probably doing exactly what the original
| author says.
|
| At least, I do both.
|
| I can on one hand try to stay awake because I'm absolutely
| convinced I'll die in my sleep. Or on the other hand (most
| days when my anxiety has not flared to ridiculous levels)
| it's just the first time during the day that I have some time
| that is truly to myself, so I can read and comment without
| interruption.
| rosstex wrote:
| >intellectually stimulated by the thing they're doing and like
| doing it
|
| This is the flaw in Ed's argument imo. Addictions don't need to
| be intellectually stimulating or enjoyable.
| frereubu wrote:
| I agree. It's stimulation, but what the article talks about
| is relentless scrolling rather than anything intellectual.
| When I'm intellectually stimulated by something I feel great
| afterwards, and even if I'm tired the next morning I feel
| like it was worth it. When I find myself having gone into a
| scrolling trance for 45 minutes when it feels like 15 should
| have passed, I feel rubbish.
| gowld wrote:
| And intellectual stimulation works much better if you do it
| during your waking hours, not when you are a sleep-deprived
| zombie.
| kritiko wrote:
| maybe "intellectually stimulated" is poor phrasing.
|
| But I think if you were to poll somebody staying up past
| their bedtime, they would say that they prefer their current
| activity to sleep in the moment. I.e. that they like doing
| it. Not to get too far afield, but how much evidence is there
| that gaming or reading or scrolling social media or whatever
| activities supposedly constitute "revenge bedtime
| procrastination" actually meet some criteria of addiction?
| gowld wrote:
| If you ask someone high on meth why they are doing it, they
| will say it's because it feels great.
| lthornberry wrote:
| You clearly don't experience this phenomenon. I'm jealous!
| But no, the whole problem is that I'm staying up late
| scrolling my phone even though sleep would be much more
| satisfying. And I can tell you that, in the moment! It's
| just hard to actually put my phone down and go to sleep.
| kritiko wrote:
| I experience this phenomenon. I have made poor sleep
| hygiene decisions often in my life. What I'd dispute is
| that I actually prefer sleep in that moment. Maybe I'd
| prefer to _be_ asleep. But when I 'm on Twitter past
| midnight, generally I am conscious of the fact that I'm
| choosing to be reckless and have some fun instead of
| trying to fall asleep.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Revenge bedtime procrastinators are aware of that too.
| But in that moment, the recklessness overrides your
| better judgment. So how can you say when you "choose" to
| be reckless, you are not indulging in the same akrasia
| that addicts do?
| twicetwice wrote:
| No, most times that's not true for me. I often even
| consciously think "ugh, I'm exhausted, why aren't I asleep
| right now" and yet still feel "stuck"--sometimes for hours
| more! I'll even finish what I was doing--scrolling HN, for
| example--and then cast about desperately for some new
| distraction, even though I know that what I want to do
| most, & will feel best, is going to sleep.
| rosstex wrote:
| I think you overestimate people's ability to make a
| decision that they themselves would consider preferable. If
| you ask someone engaged in destructive behavior whether
| they would prefer to continue, I think most would say no.
| zck wrote:
| Often, revenge bedtime procrastination is doing things we _don
| 't_ want to do instead of going to bed.
| burnished wrote:
| >bring intellectualism to "I stayed up until 1am playing Slay
| The Spire."
|
| The point is that it isn't doing something fun like playing a
| game you enjoy, which we can all understand as being a sort of
| trade off, its where instead of going to bed you do sort of..
| mindless, pointless, unpleasant things like refresh the same
| feed(reddit, HN, what have you) or browse mindlessly and for
| much longer than anticipated.
|
| Maybe you just haven't experienced it? I have. It is very
| different from times where I make decisions that leave me worse
| off in the future.. when I ask myself "why did I do that?" for
| drinking or staying out late I usually have an answer. For
| another set of behaviors, where the term 'revenge bedtime
| procrastination' feels like a shockingly apt description, I
| have no answer.
|
| Maybe you can better understand this as people finding words
| for their feelings.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| I think the definition is backwards. It's not revenge against
| anything. It's just normal procrastination.
|
| Most procrastination happens in the form of you have to do A, but
| you put it off to do B instead. Thus increasing the amount of
| time before A because you don't want to deal with it.
|
| Sleep doesn't count as time in many people's perceptions because
| you're not conscious for it. By doing B late into the night, A
| still arrives at the same time, but it expands the amount of
| experienced time before A.
| inanutshellus wrote:
| I would've worded it as "petulantly delaying sleep".
|
| One is being immature and frustrated at the lack of planning
| and control in one's life, so one retaliatorally "plays" when
| one actually has the power to decide.
|
| There was an article not too long ago about overly-
| controlled/time-regimented children doing this same thing. When
| they have no power over how to spend their day, they decide to
| control their night, to their own detriment, health-wise.
| sershe wrote:
| In some people (e.g. me) it takes the form of wanting to
| accomplish X before sleep, but being too tired/lazy/... to
| start, and so procrastinating a little bit, while still
| intending to do X. Then, as time progresses, I probably become
| less likely to start on X but I keep doing random stuff
| (sometimes useful, sometimes not) because some part of me
| thinks I cannot go to sleep because I haven't accomplished
| anything... sometimes it even feels like bargaining after the
| fact, e.g. I decided to do a much less important Y instead of
| X, to feel like at least something had been done.
|
| I've learned that if X isn't working out the best thing to do
| is to just force yourself to go to bed :)
| codr7 wrote:
| I like this one, always makes me laugh because it's so miserably
| accurate:
|
| https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-52-stages-of-insomni...
| im_down_w_otp wrote:
| I'd never heard of this before. I absolutely stay up late on a
| regular basis after a long day of CEO-ing, parenting, etc. So, I
| can understand the dynamic to a degree. Though, my whole life
| I've had a complicated relationship with sleep and have always
| stayed up late.
|
| That said, given the origins of this curated concept, I can't
| really shake the feeling that it's a subtle attempt to stigmatize
| the things people are doing to still feel human in an otherwise
| dehumanizing context (e.g. "996 culture"). With the end result
| intended to be getting people to sleep more, so that they're more
| productive/predictable "996" workers, not so that they can do
| less "996"-ing. However, I expect the narrative frame of it being
| an act of "rebellion" to be interpreted and internalized
| differently based on different regional cultural factors, so the
| stigmatizing effect may not be universal.
| [deleted]
| tejohnso wrote:
| This is a strange way to use the word revenge. You're lashing out
| against a society / culture that overworks by depriving yourself
| of the small opportunity for rest that you have?
| dhosek wrote:
| I think that it's also a depression thing. Certainly, when my
| mood is down, it's more likely that I'll do low-emotional-calorie
| activities in bed instead of sleep.
| pbronez wrote:
| I found the "revenge bedtime procrastination" concept to be very
| empowering. It put a name to a thing I was doing, and frustrated
| by, and thus let me see it more clearly.
|
| For me, there's a big difference between an intentional decision
| to stay up late doing something valuable (which could be
| recreational) and RBP. RBP is a black hole that captures my
| attention and wastes my time without rejuvenating me.
|
| Knowing the RBP concept empowers me to be intentional with my
| evening hours. Sometimes I go to bed early, sometimes I stay up
| and play, but I never want to lose that time to unintentional
| mindlessness.
| ehnto wrote:
| It works for me to manage my phone use throughout the day too.
| I give myself a rule that any task on my phone has to be
| intentional. "I am checking for an email", "I am checking my
| bank balance", "I am organizing a meet with a friend". Even
| recreation time on the phone has to be intentional, "I am
| reading this specific article on my phone".
|
| Otherwise you end up caught on the seemingly endless but
| shallow stream of content the internet provides through feed
| sites and apps. If I set the rule of being intentional it's
| really obvious when I'm not being intentional, and should put
| the phone down.
|
| I also make a habit of closing the phone or turning off my
| computer before I actually feel comfortable doing so. The
| insidious part of feed procrastination is that you're never
| satisfied, so you can't find a comfortable "End point", you
| just have to get into the habit of shutting it down mid
| procrastinating.
| MAGZine wrote:
| Intentionality can be a very powerful thing.
|
| For people who are caught in an endless loop of television
| shows they've seen many times before, I encourage those
| people to merely set an intention of watching something new
| before opening Netflix.
| leppr wrote:
| I'm not exempt from that but the mere concept of needing
| help to "improve one's show-watching habits" should make
| anyone pause and reflect.
| fragmede wrote:
| How does that work with things that _aren 't_
| procrastination, like doing the dishes or folding laundry?
| Because I want to stop the whole time (though I've developed
| hacks to help me get them done, regardless), but training
| myself to stop doing things I want to be doing seems like it
| would make it easier for my brain to stop doing things I _don
| 't_ want to do!
| ehnto wrote:
| I guess it's like training an exit routine that I can
| quickly enact in those fleeting moments of self-awareness
| while scrolling, it's still intentional but it has to be
| quick and decisive or you'll just go back to
| procrastinating. I wouldn't ever do it while being
| productive because if I became self-aware of being
| productive, I'd just think "Nice one!"
|
| If you'll indulge me for a tangent, if you have heard of
| lucid dreaming you may have heard of strategies people use
| to help them recognize a lucid dream. You essentially train
| habits, like checking your watch or reading things twice,
| that will help you notice inconsistencies in the dream that
| wouldn't exist in real life. This will clue you in to the
| fact that it's a dream.
|
| Deep procrastination is kind of like being in a dream,
| you're zoned out and you just ebb through it mindlessly.
| You can train yourself some cues, mental escape hatches,
| that jog you into self-awareness long enough to enact your
| escape routine (turn off the device, get up off the chair
| etc)
| beerandt wrote:
| This might sound too obvious to say, but set an alarm for your
| bedtime and 30 mins before (to start your wind down).
|
| It will either get you in the habit of going to sleep at a
| "planned" time, or will at least make you aware of your
| procrastination from that point on, which can help you self-
| evaluate the problem.
| [deleted]
| shrubby wrote:
| One interpretation of this was also that we you're lacking the
| feeling control in your life you can retaliate by staying awake
| late and feel tired later. I've seen some cases that might well
| fit this but I don't think I want to jump into conclusions here.
| pbronez wrote:
| Exactly. That was my experience. I snapped out of it by
| recognizing that giving into RBP was a loss of control in
| itself. I get a lot more "fuck you Ill do want I want"
| satisfaction by going to bed ASAP, waking up early, and using
| those early hours intentionally.
| maxfurman wrote:
| Or you can do what I do: go to bed early, tell yourself that
| you're going to get up early and do things, and then sleep
| until your normal time anyway. That way you don't have fun
| _and_ you feel bad about lying to yourself! But at least you
| get enough sleep.
| rozab wrote:
| >most people procrastinate doing things that they don't want to
| do. But people really do want to sleep. We procrastinate on
| bedtime, then, not because we're "aversive" to it, but because we
| don't want to stop doing the other, non-sleep thing that we're
| doing.
|
| That statement implies the opposite? This whole article keeps
| making nonsensical logical leaps.
| black_13 wrote:
| I just go to sleep at 10 and wake up early do as terrible a job
| as I can do.
| [deleted]
| joeberon wrote:
| It's sad but at least on days where I'm that busy I don't have
| time to feel down or demotivated. Literally the pace and busy-
| ness forces me to remain focussed. I end up feeling depressed and
| deflated if I have room to breath. I think that is just me though
| and for most people having lots of free time is obviously better.
| romwell wrote:
| If you can relate to this, consider that it's very common with
| ADHD[1].
|
| My life has greatly improved once I learned about it, and got it
| treated, instead of blaming myself for all the things I did (or
| couldn't do).
|
| I wrote up my experience here: https://romankogan.net/adhd
|
| [1] http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Revenge%20Bedtime
| gowld wrote:
| An ADHD wiki that you can get stuck clicking around forever
| getting little bits of novel stimulation -- the ultimate troll.
| romwell wrote:
| _OMG WHAT HAVE I DONE_
|
| My apologies to anyone who ended up getting stuck there at
| the expense of Things To Do(tm).
| grillvogel wrote:
| these are interesting, but its just a bunch of memes. any tips
| for managing?
| romwell wrote:
| A bunch of memes? There are 20,000+ words of notes there that
| are _accompanied_ by comics (made specifically to raise ADHD
| awareness) _and_ relatable memes. But hey, sure :)
|
| If you find the memes interesting, but more importantly -
| relatable, my best tip for managing would be to get an ADHD
| evaluation[1] and see if medication[2] works for you.
|
| You can also use this list to tell your therapist/coach about
| the issues you are struggling with - it's much easier when
| there's a list at hand. I simply pointed mine to this page.
|
| If you relate to just a couple of entries, then I don't have
| much advice. If you find _many_ entries relatable on _most_
| days, then joining ADHD groups on social media, learning
| about it, getting self-help books _specifically for people
| with ADHD_ , and, yes, medication will be a life-changing
| experience.
|
| Which case is it for you?
|
| [1]http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Diagnosis
|
| [2]http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication
| grillvogel wrote:
| i can relate to most of the entries but i don't buy into
| medication. pretty much everyone would be more productive
| on amphetamines
| taurath wrote:
| There's been a groundswell on social media wherein
| everything functionally becomes ADHD, ASD, neurodivergent
| etc. - many people have taken up these diagnoses as a
| self-identity, and I don't think thats a bad thing to try
| to build community around an idea.
|
| However, the net of symptoms and behaviors is cast really
| widely, and I think overall the definitions really start
| to lose their usefulness when so many traits are bucketed
| into these categories. To start, a disorder is only that
| if it is causing difficulty in your life, in reaching
| your goals, doing what you want or taking care of
| yourself. Most people identify as that but can't
| necessarily put a name on it.
|
| My personal experience is I was Dx'd with ADHD, and then
| ASD (then Aspergers) at an early age of 10. The reasoning
| was I presented with some oversensitivity to sensory
| input (loud noises, etc) and had trouble socializing. I
| internally accepted (or was forced to accept) this
| definition for myself for a very long time - I was
| literally told as a child I couldn't read faces, and so I
| never really tried until I rebelled from the given model
| that I was somehow incapable in my late teens.
|
| It turns out, at the very minimum the ASD diagnoses
| couldn't be further from the truth. I am just a very
| sensitive person, I read faces and expressions extremely
| well and if anything I'm a natural social butterfly,
| though emotionally very anxious.
|
| A good few differential diagnoses for anyone looking at
| what they might identify with include both CPTSD and
| Attachment Disorders. The commonality between them is
| that both of those are caused environmentally rather than
| some innate genetic trait which is usually proposed
| regarding ASD/ADHD. And its also true that two people in
| the same environment won't necessarily develop the same
| disorders, or any. This is a bit of a long rant, but for
| me a CPTSD diagnosis and related treatment modalities has
| helped me develop more in the past year or two than
| literal decades of work around ASD/ADHD - everyone is
| different and YMMV, just wanted to show that there are
| some other options.
| romwell wrote:
| If you relate to _most_ of the entries, then you should
| definitely consider talking to a professional.
|
| There are many resources available to help with ADHD,
| first and foremost being understanding what works and
| what doesn't work with your ADHD brain.
|
| Regarding medication, there is a lot of unnecessary
| stigma around it. Please consider my experience with it:
| [1] to understand what I'm about to say.
|
| It's _not_ about productivity. It 's about not feeling
| _pain_ associated with initiating, finishing, or
| _switching_ tasks. It 's about _slowing_ the thoughts in
| your brain a bit so that you could _find the first step_
| more easily, and have more control over _either_ not
| initiating other tasks, _or_ switching out of something
| that you _can 't stop_ doing.
|
| You have to understand that most people _don 't have_
| these issues to begin with. I have no idea what
| amphetamines do for _them_.
|
| For people with ADHD, medication is like glasses for the
| brain. It helps _us_ see better. If somebody takes your
| glasses, they won 't improve their vision - in fact, they
| will probably mess up their own. That's why both glasses
| and medication have to be prescribed by a professional.
|
| There is much more than medication though. It's about
| approaching the things you face in ways that work for
| _you_. It 's understanding what strengths you have (e.g.
| acting efficiently in emergencies or under high pressure
| in critical tasks) vs. things that your brain isn't good
| at (estimating time, doing the same thing consistently,
| etc.)
|
| Going into that is way beyond the scope of a comment.
| There is a lot to learn.
|
| [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication
| habeebtc wrote:
| I definitely do this, and have thought about why.
|
| Sometimes it is "me time" as TFA suggests. Sometimes after a busy
| day, I need to unwind a bit before sleep, because I am still kind
| of amped up from the hustle and bustle.
| ggrrhh_ta wrote:
| sometimes utter exhaustion helps you have a wonderful sleep
| that really makes you feel rested (only sometimes).
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| I feel the problem is more in that we are forced to work N hours
| per day, when realistically, we are not getting any more stuff
| DONE than if we were working N/2 hours per day. Unnecessary
| meetings and other bad practices eat up not only our time, but
| our ONLY time.
|
| We only have one life. WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our
| lives to be able to "enjoy" the rest?
| aerosmile wrote:
| > WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our lives to be able to
| "enjoy" the rest?
|
| Never in the history of the world have people had to work fewer
| hours per week. Something's telling me that we are not any
| happier than previous generations. We are definitely going to
| keep reducing the work hours further, and perhaps we will in
| fact reach the point of no work at all - but will we be happier
| than today? Just look at all the people who retire and decline
| quickly.
|
| There's something about work that's natural to the concept of
| human race, and I, for one, would continue to work even if I
| didn't have to. But - and that's a big but - I enjoy my work.
| It allows me to use my brain and express myself in ways that I
| never would be able to without the support of my team and my
| company. It multiplies my ability to make an impact on others
| and to see a meaning in waking up every morning.
|
| This is not going to be a popular opinion, but everyone here
| has the ability to find themselves in a position of fulfilling
| work. In my case, it took 20 years of hard work, of which the
| first year was awful and it gradually got better, leading to
| where I am today. I don't think I possess any special
| qualities, and I certainly didn't come from money or any type
| of privilege (I wasn't even born in the US). But I was willing
| to work my ass off, and it all paid off.
|
| Assuming you come from a similar background as mine, you cannot
| escape work. Think of it as a prison sentence of anywhere from
| 1-20 years. You're in jail now, and you can't get out of it -
| what do you do? Sit in a corner and feel sorry for yourself, or
| try to have meaningful connections with your jail mates,
| exercise your body, read books, learn something new every day.
| I know which way I would go.
|
| Inequality is at the very core of how the universe operates. We
| all have different genes, and some of us are stronger, taller,
| cuter, and/or healthier than others. Some of us are dealt good
| cards and some are dealt bad ones. Heck, some of us are born on
| Earth, and there might be other species born on another planet,
| dealing with a very different climate other circumstances -
| it's highly unlikely that there's another carbon copy of our
| planet.
|
| Life is different for everyone, and if you spend your life
| looking at someone who has to work less, you're going to miss
| the essence of this universe. From what you wrote, your life
| will have a heavy dose of work associated with it, and that
| makes it similar to mine. It's ok, there's a lot of pride, joy
| and fun to be had. It all starts with realizing that it's about
| living your best life and not someone else's.
| kojus wrote:
| > Never in the history of the world have people had to work
| fewer hours per week
|
| This is false, medieval workers used to work less than we
| do[0]. We work less than 1800s laborers, but their life
| conditions was such an aberration that it gave rise to the
| socialist movement, mass strikes and bloody revolution
| attempts, which in turn forced governments and capitalists to
| reduce the average labor time.
|
| [0]: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/ho
| urs_...
| aerosmile wrote:
| That's a fair comment. In my mind, I have been focusing on
| the recent history, whereas technically if you go back to
| the beginning of human civilization, you could argue that
| people never clocked in and out. But they also had to do
| every little thing themselves rather than pay someone.
| Something's wrong with your roof|clothes|body|[anything]?
| You fix it all by yourself (and God help you if you don't
| know how to). Does fixing those things count as work? One
| way or another, we do have to take into account that free
| time means something different today than way back when.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| It doesn't count as work if it's what you WANT to do with
| your life.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| >Never in the history of the world have people had to work
| fewer hours per week.
|
| Untrue. Before civilization and villages and cities, our
| hunter-gatherer ancestors worked very little: a couple hours
| a day obtaining food.
| mehphp wrote:
| > it's highly unlikely that there's another carbon copy of
| our planet.
|
| Given the sheer size of the universe, I'd guess the opposite.
| Unless you literally mean and exact copy.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| Bullshit. Explain why anyone still needs to work two jobs.
| aerosmile wrote:
| I think I did. That person was dealt bad cards (assuming
| they are sufficiently motivated and getting the most out of
| their set of circumstances), and their mission in life now
| is to overcome whatever challenges are currently preventing
| them from having a higher paying job (of which there are
| plenty).
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| Ah, the capitalist grindset! Buy a self-help book to cure
| your mind from the society, then another to cure your
| mind from the previous one...
| adolph wrote:
| Unnecessary is very subjective. Something unnecessary for one
| team member may be crucial to another. One might say that the
| cost of specialization and focus is a growing amount of time
| not spent on one's area of specialization and focus.
|
| _Communication overhead increases as the number of people
| increases. Due to combinatorial explosion, the number of
| different communication channels increases rapidly with the
| number of people.[3] Everyone working on the same task needs to
| keep in sync, so as more people are added they spend more time
| trying to find out what everyone else is doing._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month#Communi...
| pc86 wrote:
| I see this sentiment posted again and again. Maybe it's
| correct, but I'm skeptical.
|
| You're always free to consult, plenty of people work 10-20
| hours a week and make more money. But I think, for most people,
| they would earn less. They're not as productive as they think
| they are. And sure there are absolutely a lot of meetings that
| could be "look at the Wiki I updated" emails or Slack messages,
| but a lot of meetings are necessary for the functioning of the
| _business_ , not just your individual productivity.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| OT: "Work is what you're doing when you'd rather be doing
| something else."-- Anonymous
| nickjj wrote:
| I spent a big portion of my career doing this and it's often
| not as simple as thinking you can cut your hours in half and
| now you're free to do whatever for the rest of the time.
|
| For example if you did 20 hours a week, that's 80 hours a
| month at $200 / hour ends up being $192,000 a year. That's a
| really competitive and great wage but you'll find it unlikely
| to be able to work only those hours you want without
| constraint.
|
| You might want to work 10 hours on Monday and Tuesday and
| take every other day off, but how are you going to get new
| business? Maybe start writing hundreds of blog posts and
| making videos, maybe start a podcast and make some courses or
| write a book. Before you know it you're working 240 hours a
| week all-in and feeling guilty if you try to peel back the
| hours because there's no paid time off when you work for
| yourself unless you're in the top 1% where you're wildly
| successful and make huge amounts of money for multiple years
| to the point where you have enough fuck you money to work on
| anything you want on your own terms for the rest of your life
| and drop everyone who requests otherwise.
|
| Plus beyond that, a lot of contracts will expect a drip of
| input and output, not a massive amount of work quickly and
| then do nothing for weeks. A ton of my 10 hour a week
| contracts were doing something small every day, or at least
| most days and generally being available to at least respond
| to an email within a reasonable amount of time (a day, but
| ideally within a few hours). This isn't true freedom. It's
| freedom in the sense that you can decide which contracts you
| take on but you won't last doing contract work if you make a
| habit of letting your clients down.
| nickjj wrote:
| I think this goes without saying but I meant to say 240
| hours a month not 240 hours a week haha. It's too late to
| edit the above post.
| pc86 wrote:
| I am aware of this, I consulted full-time for 4 or 5 years
| and it all but paid for my first house. I was merely
| responding to the very prevalent - and likely incorrect in
| most cases - sentiment that being "stuck at work" for
| 30-50% of your time is what's actually preventing you from
| getting stuff done.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| We must be living in very different universes, because in
| my country full-time consulting pays off a house in maybe
| 20 years. Most people never get a second one.
| canadaduane wrote:
| I want to agree, but I feel the context of our human history is
| missing here. If you go back a mere 150 years, 50% of us were
| farmers[1] who spent most of our time (winter excluded) being
| "forced" to subsist.
|
| If I understand the thrust of your argument, though, I think
| what you're saying is that we have such an abundance of
| productive capability today that it's possible for most of us
| not to have to work for subsistence any more, if only the
| "leisure time" were more evenly distributed? In other words,
| could your question be rephrased as, "Why is enjoyment of one's
| time unevenly distributed in a modern high-efficiency economy?"
|
| [1] https://www.vox.com/a/explain-food-america#list-3
| mountainb wrote:
| Field cotton plantation slaves worked 12-16 hour days six
| days per week. Independent yeoman farmers worked less but
| there are fewer records so it is harder to make statistical
| arguments about how much the typical yeoman farmer worked.
|
| There are certain types of farm chores that must be done
| every day (like milking dairy animals) and cleaning out
| stalls. Others are more seasonal like weeding and the level
| of work is very different depending on climate. Another thing
| to consider is that firewood, charcoal, and dried manure are
| the fuel sources which are all labor intensive to gather.
|
| So, workdays of sunup to sundown aren't abnormal but there
| are lots of different jobs to do on a homestead that are on
| different timetables. It's not the regimented kind of work
| you would see in a factory or on a commercial plantation.
| Winter is also a lot of work when you have animals, actually
| more work because they are just sitting in a building eating
| and shitting the entire season. Cleaning out shit in the
| winter is a deeply unpleasant chore. Some kinds of animals
| are culled for winter but no matter what you are still taking
| care of at least some of them.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| If you are paid for those hours, it doesn't really matter if
| they are necessary or not.
|
| > We only have one life. WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our
| lives to be able to "enjoy" the rest?
|
| What do you need to enjoy life? If it's anything from other
| people, _they_ value their time too.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| "If you are paid for those hours, it doesn't really matter if
| they are necessary or not."
|
| That is the "I just work here" attitude.
|
| "What do you need to enjoy life?"
|
| Freedom from financial serfdom and time to pursue creative
| avenues. I suppose I can always move to the forests.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| > That is the "I just work here" attitude.
|
| If you called the shots you wouldn't have to have
| unnecessary meetings; so yes, you do "just work here".
|
| > freedom from financial serfdom and time to pursue
| creative avenues.
|
| that doesn't really put a $-amount on it. What are your
| creative pursuits? How much does "freedom" require the
| cooperation of other people?
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| I don't "just work here"; I _could_ and often _do_ skip
| extra meetings, but sometimes it's better to not want to
| be an asshole towards other people, you know?
|
| You can't put a dollar value directly on life, creativity
| or freedom; it is only possible through avoidance of
| death, parting with the fruits of creativity, and the
| various binds we put ourselves in.
| deworms wrote:
| I read the first paragraph and I can't imagine that's what
| people's lives could be like in a civilized country. I would
| never accept mixing job responsibilities with private life in
| this totally overwhelming way. What is described there is a
| hellish existence and a quick path towards a suicide, not a life
| worth living.
| zz865 wrote:
| I was more surprised they didn't get a support call at 11pm to
| interrupt their procrastination.
| suction wrote:
| May I ask where you are living and how you support yourself? No
| personal details, of course.
| tharne wrote:
| Most tech jobs outside the FAANGS and the startup bubble are
| 9-5, e.g. working as a developer for a regional bank or a
| local hospital. You don't get the enormous salaries, but it's
| a nice life overall. And re: where to live, generally
| anywhere outside the trendy metros. There are tons of boring
| jobs in boring suburbs that allow you to live your life.
| deworms wrote:
| You can have an interesting, well paid job and a life
| outside of it. This is a false dichotomy, don't spread it.
| tharne wrote:
| Good point, I can see how I may have implied that it was
| an either/or. I wasn't arguing that that was the only
| path. Just one that's there if you want it.
| pc86 wrote:
| And you can make $300k TC in a FAANG and work 35-40 hours a
| week. Plenty of people do it - the minority, sure, but only
| because FAANG jobs by definition are the minority. Google
| and Microsoft in particular are notorious for decent WLB,
| and MS's comp has come way up in the last few years to be
| nearly the same level as similar tech companies.
| op00to wrote:
| There are tons of interesting jobs in varied locales as
| well. It's not an either/or.
| silicon2401 wrote:
| > developer for a regional bank or a local hospital.
|
| funny enough you somewhat hit the nail on the head of the
| majority of my career so far. work life balance varies
| though. definitely not as bad as amazon or netflix, but not
| as chill as making crud apps all day (if those jobs even
| still exist, please let me know where)
| deworms wrote:
| Software development, making around 750% of average salary in
| my country. This kind of life would be absolutely
| unacceptable in all companies I have ever worked in. Maybe
| that's normal in USA and China, definitely not in Europe.
| tomxor wrote:
| > making around 750% of average salary in my country.
|
| While I agree that Europe is generally better than US and
| China in this respect, your salary excludes your anecdote
| from supporting this notion (by your own definition).
| jaspa99 wrote:
| That is a very formidable salary compared to the average
| income, even for software engineers. I suspect you are
| either a wanted expert in a specific field, an engineering
| manager, or self-employed?
|
| Doesn't getting into any of the above positions require
| immense dedication to your craft, to the point of
| intertwining private and professional live?
| badpun wrote:
| Software salaries are increasingly becoming globalised,
| so, in places with economy in a bad shape, such as for
| example Ukraine, the average salary may be $300, while a
| dev may be making $2500. Keep in mind that people making
| average salaries are really struggling (things aren't
| neccessarily cheaper in Ukraine than in the US) and often
| have family members abroad who send money etc. Btw it's
| not that the devs live like kings (although they are
| certainly very comfortable) - more like average people
| live lives that would be hard to swallow for Americans.
| joeberon wrote:
| You have been living under a rock if this is in any way new to
| you
| hedberg10 wrote:
| Let's identify the problems here: Long work hours
| -which might or might not be bullshit Addicting
| novelty seeking -small dopamine hits -and it's
| enablement -phones -never ending scrolling
| -being rich to have access Procrastination -mix
| of fear, uncertainty, belief it will be better at a later
| time
|
| I believe all of these should be tackled individually.
| taurath wrote:
| Can I just note that it is not necessarily an effect of "too much
| work/responsibility", it is also a reaction to active stressors
| in your life. Social anxiety around roommates for example. Being
| unable to recharge yourself emotionally even if little is going
| on. One does not have to be time crunched to have this effect.
| iSnow wrote:
| Since having older kids, this is completely trashing my
| wake/sleep rhythm and starting to impact my work. I want some
| time to do the things I care about in my own time, damnit. I
| don't want to be externally structured all the time.
|
| I don't feel too bad about staying up late instead of being
| responsible, but I start to feel burn-out creeping up, and I
| don't know what to do.
| thomasedwards wrote:
| 996 needs to stop being a thing
| stackbutterflow wrote:
| I wonder if it's going to spread to the rest or the world
| instead.
| chrischen wrote:
| I think I do the opposite: revenge bedtime productivity.
|
| I end up wasting too much of the day doing something
| fun/interesting like gaming or sports, and I try to work late at
| night to compensate, even though I may as well go to sleep early
| and work early in the morning instead.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| I think both behaviors are linked by feeling peak autonomy
| before bedtime.
| stopnamingnuts wrote:
| This strikes me as an issue that's widespread across groups but
| addressable almost entirely by individuals, which makes it
| perfect for abstract debate. ;)
|
| My partner does this. OTOH, I love sleep and feeling refreshed
| when I've had enough. She's open about being pretty driven and
| makes her choice based on what's important to her.
|
| Seems to me workism is part of that calculus. Balance usually
| requires opportunity cost. One has to value sleep, time for
| hobbies, time to spend with family... more than the real or
| perceptual carrot offered by wrapping one's identity in work. Or
| not. It's a choice regardless of whether made consciously or not.
|
| I'll finish by acknowledging there are structural inequalities
| that make this, for many, a choice from a set of equally
| unappealing options.
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