[HN Gopher] New credit card rules in India: recurring card payme...
___________________________________________________________________
New credit card rules in India: recurring card payments to be
affected
Author : Brajeshwar
Score : 199 points
Date : 2021-09-27 14:55 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (economictimes.indiatimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (economictimes.indiatimes.com)
| some1else wrote:
| This article is from 2014. Have the rules not changed since? This
| article indicates otherwise:
| https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/technology/your-re...
| remus wrote:
| Stripe have recently been sending out emails related to
| problems with recurring payments for customers in India, so I
| guess it's still an issue.
| alarak wrote:
| The title is misleading, this is a very old article.
| bgro wrote:
| I remember Xbox Live in like mid 2000's letting you sign up on
| the website but there was no cancel option. You had to call in.
| You were usually on wait for an hour, and then an hour of being
| harassed by the sales people. In theory, I don't see anything
| that prevents them from just endlessly passing you in a loop to
| prevent you from cancelling like some sort of video game
| mechanic.
|
| This was also when there was not really any possible home VOIP or
| landlines, and cell phone minutes were very expensive.
|
| The only real solution was to buy prepaid xbox cards.
| munk-a wrote:
| This isn't particularly helpful advice at this point - but
| there was a heavy overlap between most people still having a
| landline and VOIP options. For a long time google let you dial
| a phone directly from the gmail web UI - it might still let you
| do that if you're on the legacy feature (they did recently drop
| incoming call support though).
| srathi wrote:
| Willow.tv is a major culprit here. There is no cancellation
| button on the website, and you are required to email a support
| person multiple times (back and forth with retention offers) for
| cancellation. They are in violation of CA law that prohibits this
| behavior.
| Brajeshwar wrote:
| I'm extremely sorry; the title is correct with what's happening
| with India's RBI[1] regulations banning all recurring card
| charges from next month.
|
| But I have added the wrong link from the wrong tab. This new
| Safari is pretty confusing.
|
| Here is a more relevant article -
| https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/financ...
|
| 1. https://www.rbi.org.in
| azundo wrote:
| The article you linked suggests that recurring card charges
| that use two factor authentication will not be banned. So I
| think the title is still overstating.
| Brajeshwar wrote:
| 2FA with Cards in India is an OTP (One Time Password) that
| sends us an SMS Message on our phone. Which means, even if
| the recurring happens, you still need to have access to the
| site and then enter the OTP at that time to make it work.
| zodvik wrote:
| That isn't how it will work
|
| - First charge needs a AFA and it will setup a mandate -
| Subsequent charges will use that mandate and work without
| 2FA - Cardholders need to be notified in advance of a debit
| and be given an option to cancel
|
| What's breaking now for most services is handling the third
| part
| pgo wrote:
| It's a one time authorization
| rolph wrote:
| actual title == [The RBI's stringent rules on recurring
| payments are driving away India's software companies]
|
| the actual title of a submission is subject to HN guidelines,
| the current title [ndia bans all form of Recurring Card
| Charges] is in no way similar]
|
| highly editorialized titles create assumptions and non
| sequitorial context before anyone else even reads the article.
| you should talk to dang about this at HN@ycombinator.com
| ssivark wrote:
| The HN title is still incorrect/editorialized, even for the
| Economic Times article.
|
| The Indian Express article (from a few months ago, when the
| deadline was extended to Sep 30) details the changes with much
| more clarity:
| https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-au...
|
| The crux of the changes are to add an additional factor of
| authentication (AFA), notify consumers before any recurring
| charge, and allow them to easily cancel payments. This sounds
| like extremely healthy regulation, and I have no sympathy for
| merchants dragging their feet on this for years.
| tushar-r wrote:
| >The crux of the changes are to add an additional factor of
| authentication (AFA), notify consumers before any recurring
| charge, and allow them to easily cancel payments. This sounds
| like extremely healthy regulation, and I have no sympathy for
| merchants dragging their feet on this for years.
|
| I subscribe to Netflix from my mobile ISP in India, and
| they've implemented it from day one. I get a message a few
| days ahead of the renewal every month, when the service can
| be cancelled before billing.
|
| Example -
|
| Enjoying Netflix with airtelThanks? You will be charged Rs.
| 499.0 for the period 31-08-2021 to 29-09-2021 in your next
| bill. To unsubscribe from Netflix, SMS STOP NETFLIX to 56111
| within 4 day(s).
|
| Really like this legislation simply because the cancellation
| ability is available pretty much every month!
| dfxm12 wrote:
| It's great that Netflix has this functionality, but it's
| frustrating that Netflix has it built out, but only deploys
| it where legally compelled to. It shows how these companies
| are not very consumer friendly.
|
| It's also frustrating that they aren't legally compelled to
| in my jurisdiction :)
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we've changed the title to what the (new) article
| actually says. (Submitted title was "India bans all form of
| Recurring Card Charges".)
| bluehatbrit wrote:
| Assuming dang doesn't get to it sooner, you could email
| hn@ycombinator.com to ask for the link to be updated.
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we've changed to that URL from
| https://qz.com/india/229295/the-rbis-stringent-rules-on-
| recu....
| superasn wrote:
| Google just emailed me too and I have to pay these manually or
| face service disruption. I have auto billing setup at so many
| places like porkbun, many Saas services, amazon, Google,
| digitalocean, etc.
|
| God knows how many reminders I will have to add and how much time
| I will have to waste every month paying these bills by hand now
| and I hope I don't miss any.
|
| I can only wish like digitalocean, amazon google too provide
| provisions to add account balance so I can add money as failsafe.
| KorematsuFredt wrote:
| It is a huge legal hassle at the moment in India. For amounts
| greater than 10K they have to KYC you. KYC is not only complex
| but also needs to be renewed on regular basis and failing to do
| it can lead to several punishment from Indian government.
| pseingatl wrote:
| Just got a call from the IRS, apparently they have outsourced
| their enforcement to call centers in India, they asked me to
| purchase Apple gift cards in order to pay what they claimed was a
| fine I owed.
|
| I thought it a little odd...
|
| The IRS also accepts Google Play cards.
|
| There is an enormous amount of Internet fraud in India, and
| coming out of India. Until the country learns to police itself, I
| have no sympathy for those who claim SaaS subscription
| collections otherwise is a "problem."
|
| As Rick (of "Rick and Morty") once said:
|
| "tough titty."
| sinyug wrote:
| This is not a ban, and has been in the works for a long time with
| at least one six-month extension granted that I know of.[1] What
| the RBI has done is introduce AFA (additional factor
| authentication) for recurring transactions.[2]
|
| But this is India and we like to do things one day before any
| deadline expires. That explains the panic.
|
| [1]
| https://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/NotificationUser.aspx?Id=1205...
|
| [2] https://support.stripe.com/questions/important-updates-to-
| rb...
| athenot wrote:
| > But this is India and we like to do things one day before any
| deadline expires. That explains the panic.
|
| This made me laugh. But rest assured, things aren't any better
| in the US when some regulation comes with plenty notice.
| (Thinking most recently about the Cures Act where healthcare
| info must be accessible to patient without putting up blocks;
| many healthcare providers only started thinking about it at the
| last minute)
| Bang2Bay wrote:
| Needed initiative, given that a large part of the population is
| not tech savvy.
| akshayB wrote:
| This is super old new 2014 article. One of the biggest problems
| in India is most of the people are not well educated on
| differences of credit card vs debit cards. Also there is little
| to no fraud projection offered to the customers and that's why
| government is enforcing two factor authentication. If anything
| happens and you loose money from bank account due to debit card
| transaction bank will provide you no help what so ever. Its
| almost like you lost all the money.
| Mustache wrote:
| I use privacy.com to create virtual debit cards for all online
| payments, especially recurring ones. I can set limts on monthly,
| annual or one time charges and cancel it myself at anytime. the
| other added benefit is that if you lose your debit card you only
| have to change the number with privacy.com you don't have to go
| to each vender and update to a new card number.
| zburatorul wrote:
| I highly recommend this service as well.
| anaganisk wrote:
| Works only in US, when u suggest something make sure if it
| works for the rest of the World. Or at-least please do mention
| about the limitation. US =/= World.
| cfgghsj wrote:
| While I didn't work on indian regulations, I've worked directly
| on 2FA/OTP with recurring charges. For this regulation, the
| recurring charge must be initiated with an OTP code, but
| subsequent charges may happen automatically. There should also be
| an exception process to allow preexisting standing instructions
| to continue.
|
| This article has details of the actual regulation:
| https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-au...
| Brajeshwar wrote:
| I believe it started that way but now everyone has just stopped
| recurring. I have already got email notifications from AWS
| (India), my phone provider, etc. that we have to pay manually
| from next month.
| zodvik wrote:
| Yes, because most services haven't met the full scope of the
| RBI circular yet - sending pre-debit notification, self serve
| mandate revocation, etc
| sinyug wrote:
| > everyone has just stopped recurring
|
| Every one had two years to implement the e-mandate system.[1]
| What does it say about Amazon, your phone provider and your
| card issuer that they haven't been able to do it in time and
| decided, instead, to pass the buck to you, the customer?
|
| [1] https://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/NotificationUser.aspx?Id=1
| 166...
| rataata_jr wrote:
| I can't auto pay for DO now. Hmm.
| pseingatl wrote:
| There's a web site that provides debit cards with a $ limit, so
| you set up the subscription on the card and simply fail to fund
| the card when the subscription expires.
|
| Can't remember the name of it, though.
| snambi wrote:
| I think what India did here helps customers. Ofcourse, it may not
| help service providers. Anyway, customers should decide on the
| payment. If the customer doesn't pay, company should stop the
| service.
| nikolay wrote:
| There are a lot of shady merchant schemes regarding recurring
| payments. In the past, I knew hidden charges (i.e., recurring
| charges I fail to notice) would eventually stop as my credit card
| would eventually expire in their system. By shady merchants (like
| AAA, for example, which otherwise claims to be a reputable
| company), for my "convenience" update by guessing my expired
| credit card's new expiration date! Thus, they keep charging me
| forever! So, I'm sorry, recurring charges as both convenient and
| borderline scams! If I was aware of each upcoming payment and I
| had to approve it, then I would be spending a lot less money each
| month!
| billfruit wrote:
| How are other countries dealing with recurring card charges? Is
| there a reasoning why Indian regulations in this regard should be
| different from those in the USA, for example?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| The US is a very poor example in how to implement financial
| service regulations (a better example would be Europe, where
| they have instant payments and cram down interchange fees with
| regulation). Non-Indian software companies are accustom to
| business friendly recurring payment policies, not the more
| consumer-focused financial regulations India has.
|
| From OP's relevant article link [1]:
|
| > He adds that this directive caters to two problems.
| Discontinuing standing instruction to a merchant was a task
| earlier while some asked for a letter by post asking for the
| discontinuation.
|
| > Moreover, credit cards were mainly used for recurring
| payments while debit cards weren't as much in use.
|
| So, it would seem that the regulator is attempting to make it
| harder for businesses to lock customers into recurring payments
| they don't want, and to encourage debit card use versus credit
| card use. I imagine this is keeping in line with India not
| wanting capitalistic colonialism, which is why the Indian
| central bank kneecapped US payment networks [2] in support of
| their own instant payment system (UPI [3]). Developing
| countries don't want to pay unnecessary drag on their economic
| systems to rent seeking first world corporations, if they can
| avoid it.
|
| [1]
| https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/financ...
|
| [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57817618
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
| billfruit wrote:
| Preventing a consumer from subscribing something they want
| through an automated recurring payment may not be a consumer
| friendly thing as well.
|
| Perhaps the inability of the Indian framework to
| appropriately deal with fraud and other nefarious uses like
| misleading the consumer, etc is prompting such blanket
| measures.
|
| In other words, is potentially throwing the baby with the
| bathwater, a good policy?
| geodel wrote:
| Perhaps. It is reasonable policy in the context. It is
| similar on other side also. Customers can't return stuff
| back in retail stores to get cash back in India.
|
| Funny story: A couple of years back a relative of mine
| visited US on office trip. Staying in a mid-level hotel
| they were surprised to know that they can just walk-in
| hotel's breakfast buffet, eat as much they want and even
| carry fruits, baked item etc while leaving. Back in India,
| hotel would do 2 level of ID/ security check before being
| ushered to buffet area and carrying any food item outside
| is prohibited.
|
| So customer and service provider both have high chance to
| be defrauded by party at other end of transaction.
| tushar-r wrote:
| >Back in India, hotel would do 2 level of ID/ security
| check before being ushered to buffet area and carrying
| any food item outside is prohibited.
|
| Never run into the ID/security check in my years of
| traveling here. At best, it is a "which room are you
| from" to mark off in their list. Carrying food out - that
| depends on the place.
| geodel wrote:
| Well of-course.
|
| Many have not run into restaurant fraud where they ask
| unsuspecting customers into ordering off-menu items like
| mixed-kebab platter or some such and then check comes in
| for 2000 rupees for that item but I have been duped like
| that.
|
| Same with hotel ID check maybe they do in high fraud
| regions where a group of people walk in confidently,
| looked the part, polished off meal and left quietly.
| ssivark wrote:
| The regulator has done precisely what you suggest -- allow
| automatic recurring payments with a slightly stronger
| validation threshold and some conditions. The article is
| about certain entities along the payment processing chain
| dragging their feet on implementing the requisite updates.
| Many have complied (see Eg: comments about Stripe), and the
| switchover has been relatively seamless.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| As a regulator, you use the tools you have, not the tools
| you have to go begging for you may not get. Perfect is the
| enemy of good enough.
| billfruit wrote:
| It does feel like regulator is abdicating its
| responsibility "in detail" by such a measure, where as it
| could have acted to declare the norms under which
| recurrant payments could be done in a legitimate manner,
| and continue to actively monitor and oversee their
| enforcement.
|
| Regulator of course have to work with the tools they
| have, but here it looks more like they are preferring to
| take a shortcut.
| axlee wrote:
| If there is an alternative & sovereign way for recurring
| payments to still happen without paying an obscene rent on
| the whole economy to Americans who provide little to no
| value locally, I don't see the issue. Look up Autogiro in
| the nordics.
| alistairSH wrote:
| As far as I can tell, the US doesn't regulate this much at all.
| Certain newspapers are notorious for making it difficult to
| unsubscribe.
|
| IMO, merchants should be required to have an obvious
| unsubscribe button on your account page. Or perhaps all
| recurring payments managed through the consumer's bank, so a
| list can be provided for easy "bulk" management.
| jeswin wrote:
| Services handling recurring payments need to compulsorily have a
| cancel button.
|
| Here's my story with nytimes today. There's no cancellation
| button in the app or the website. There's a "chat with
| agent"option, but it doesn't work. So they ask you to call an
| agent, on the phone.
|
| After ten minutes of being "next in line", I get to speak to
| someone. He doesn't let me cancel, but takes down my details and
| transfers to "Management".
|
| I was seventh in line. But after 10 mins, I was eighth in line.
| After 12 mins, I was ninth in line. I was finally able to get
| hold of someone and cancel it, after holding for 25 minutes.
|
| This should be illegal.
| naravara wrote:
| I gave up after 10 minutes, called the credit card company I
| had the subscription on, and asked them to refuse all charges
| from NYT.
|
| I had to do the same thing with the Economist.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| I got the Economist to end the subscription over email, by
| using the word charge back. They apologized that they had
| already charged for that month, but canceled immediately and
| would refund my money in a few days. Too bad, because I would
| absolutely have resubed if they hadn't be so nasty about it.
| tzs wrote:
| Counter anecdote. I called. I said I want to cancel. The agent
| asked why. I said I didn't have time to read the news. He
| processed the cancellation.
|
| While he was doing that I told him to make sure he just
| cancelled the newspaper, not my separate subscription to the
| crossword puzzle.
|
| I told him I realized I was getting a 50% discount on the
| puzzle because of my newspaper subscription and understood I'd
| lose that.
|
| He informed me that no, I would not lose the discount. The deal
| is a discount when you purchase a puzzle subscription if you
| also have a newspaper subscription. As long as my auto-renew on
| the puzzle subscription keeps working, it keeps renewing at
| that rate. And indeed it has kept doing so.
|
| Bonus: I also cancelled DirecTV several years ago, with no
| problem, when they had a reputation of being very hard to
| cancel.
|
| I called, said I needed to cancel, and they asked why. I
| explained that I loved their service, but my Sprint DSL really
| sucked. Comcast had just expanded to my neighborhood and so I
| was dropping Sprint DSL for Comcast internet. I can get a much
| better deal with Comcast if I get a bundle, so I was going for
| the Comcast Triple Play (internet, phone, TV). Hence, no more
| need for DirecTV (but if a decent non-Comcast internet service
| came to my neighborhood I'd probably switch to that and come
| back to DirecTV).
|
| They cancelled me then with no hassle.
| illumanaughty wrote:
| Sounds like a lot of hassle to me. I'd rather click a button.
| hcnews wrote:
| Exactly, I would want a 1-click instant cancellation rather
| than a 15-60 min phone conversation.
| snambi wrote:
| Wasting an hour to cancel a service that I no longer need
| is just not right. Besides there are many services that
| require me to write a letter for cancellation.
|
| This is fundamentally wrong. We need this kind of rule in
| USA too, so, companies cannot exploit their customers.
| serial_dev wrote:
| What I heard: "counter anecdote: everything you said is true
| and canceling the subscription is an enormous pain in the
| ass".
|
| Canceling should not be more complicated than signing up. If
| I can sign up in 30 seconds with two clicks, why would a
| process with phone calls (with very long queues) be
| acceptable? Also, I hate questions like "why do you want to
| cancel?" it's none of your business!
|
| I thought about signing up for NYT, WaPo, and other news
| sites to get access to some articles I was really interested
| in, but then I remembered how painful it is to cancel at some
| of these sites...
| KorematsuFredt wrote:
| > Services handling recurring payments need to compulsorily
| have a cancel button.
|
| We don't really need a law for this nor anyone needs to
| implement a button. Visa, Mastercard etc. can simply run a
| service where all the transactions that are marked as
| "recurring" will have an associated button "Revoke payment
| authorization" in their app. Once you revoke it all future
| recurring payments for that authorization will fail. It should
| be the responsibility of merchant to ensure they have
| authorization before providing service.
|
| This can be sold as "Peace of Mind"^(TM) service and merchants
| who opt into this can can proudly show it off. Those merchants
| who do not have this, might have to show a warning to their
| customers that it is not a "Peace of Mind"^(TM) merchant.
|
| Further I am pretty sure Mastercard, Visa can easily see which
| merchants are problematic. I am sure SiriusXM, La Fitness etc.
| will be on the top of their list and they can create a
| threshold beyond which those problematic merchants will have to
| pay a higher transaction fee in order to continue or opt into
| "Peace of Mind"^(TM) program.
|
| The real issue here is the the regulation. All Fintech
| companies are super scared to try anything new as the various
| federal agencies will make an example out of anyone who builds
| something that disrupts the market. Entire history of financial
| regulation in this country is about protecting the interests of
| the existing players only and all the existing players are
| mostly indistinguishable from each other. Rarely someone like
| Robinhood tries to disrupt and you can see how much shit the
| media partners throw on RH. While many of these media partners
| tell you how dangerous RH is nearly no one explains why
| Fidelity, MorganStanley etc. have such shitty and outdated
| sites and UX.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| This is why I use a third party payment service. I don't have
| to cancel the subscription, I just cut them off.
| munk-a wrote:
| Credit card companies have no excuse for not being this third
| party payment service.
| tantony wrote:
| Some credit card companies offer virtual cards linked to
| your actual credit card that can be blocked selectively.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I didn't just have this experience with NYT, but also ACLU.
| Easy to give them your credit card, but far more difficult to
| get them to stop the recurring charge. This stings a lot more
| than NYT, because philosophically I had better opinions of
| ACLU.
|
| To this day, ACLU people text me every week or so to ask me to
| do participate somehow. No matter how many times I've asked
| them to stop. And since the texts come from someone different
| each time, blocking isn't a viable option.
|
| Guess who won't be getting any more of my money?
| [deleted]
| lamontcg wrote:
| This is why I don't donate to good causes anymore (including
| a somewhat similar experience with the ACLU).
|
| I'd like to donate to charity but I don't want to have to
| setup an untrackable shell company in the Cayman Islands in
| order to do it without being harassed.
| handoflixue wrote:
| I just recently emailed the ACLU to cancel my donation, and a
| week later got an email back confirming the cancellation no
| problem.
|
| It wasn't exactly transparent, since the only place
| mentioning who to email was the "welcome" email I got when I
| signed up ages ago. But I was able to cancel by a single
| email to the address they'd provided.
| euc2077 wrote:
| I use Revolut with a disposable virtual card for sites I don't
| trust. So I can immediately delete the card.
| artificialLimbs wrote:
| Got interested. Went to Revolut website. Uncloseable (without
| choosing an option) cookie banner advising me they will
| deliver 'relevant' ads. Have to click through to turn off the
| default-on ad tracking. Closed tab.
| BayAreaEscapee wrote:
| There is a service called privacy.com that does something
| similar. You can open and close new cards easily. I use it
| all the time for sketchy web sites.
|
| http://privacy.com
| zburatorul wrote:
| This should be the top comment in this thread imo. This
| service solves a lot of the issues mentioned. No need to
| call anyone and beg for a cancellation, just close the
| card.
|
| A caveat is that one should be aware of how binding one's
| agreement with a business is, and whether a simple card
| cancellation will make the problem go away or become
| worse (collections).
| woobar wrote:
| US credit card issuers went through the phase of offering
| disposable credit card numbers 15-20 years ago. And about
| 10 years ago they started to discontinue this option.
|
| I think major selling point was preventing fraud, and it
| was a hassle for a consumer. I.e. consumer have to
| proactively generate virtual CC every time they pay over
| the Internet. Which is a pain point especially on mobile.
| Zero liability solved the problem for the majority of
| users with less friction.
|
| With regards to subscriptions virtual credit cards are
| not always a solution. If you have signed a contract and
| then your card "expired" it doesn't magically make your
| contract void. I know that gyms will keep billing you and
| eventually will sell you to collectors.
| fauigerzigerk wrote:
| Wise.com (formerly TransferWise) has virtual cards as well.
| tibiapejagala wrote:
| Yeah, using revolut for that is ironic, fighting scummy
| companies with another scummy company. It is the only way
| to get disposable cards or sane conversion rates in many
| markets unfortunately.
| password4321 wrote:
| See also: https://www.onefinance.com/securely-spend-ones-
| virtual-cards...
| russum wrote:
| That doesn't work though. Those "disposable" cards are not
| really removed, at least not in my experience, and will still
| be charged. The Revolut app even conveniently notifies about
| the charges (but is not telling that they're from the
| supposedly discarded cards).
| boring_twenties wrote:
| No idea about Revolut, but Citi has had a similar built-in
| feature since something like 2005. It's called "Virtual
| Account Numbers." You can set total spend limits as well as
| expiration dates. Once either one is hit, transactions will
| simply be declined.
| nybble41 wrote:
| As others have mentioned, that prevents the bills from
| being _paid_ but it doesn 't nullify them. They can send
| the unpaid bills to collections, which creates more
| hassle for you and negatively impacts your credit score.
| I wouldn't recommend relying on virtual accounts and
| spending limits as an alternative to proper cancellation.
|
| Blocking the payments can still be a good idea--money you
| have in hand is worth far more than the dubious hope of a
| refund--but you should also keep clear documentation
| showing that you cancelled your subscription following
| the specific steps required by the contract before
| stopping payments.
| dqpb wrote:
| As others have mentioned, they actually do have a cancel
| button, for Californians. The fact that they have the feature,
| but disable it when they aren't legally required to provide it,
| is for me an unforgivable offence.
| tschwimmer wrote:
| In California it is[0]
|
| [0]https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/companies-
| mu...
| tsycho wrote:
| This is a great law that I had never heard of. Given that NYT
| and others don't actually follow this though, how can
| California residents enforce this?
| pkaye wrote:
| From what I've read, NYT and others do follow it but only
| for those with a California address in their system.
| interestica wrote:
| Apparently the trick is to change your address and then
| attempt to cancel.
| svachalek wrote:
| It really should be possible from the credit card website too.
| Just click on a payment to say I retract permission to charge
| this in the future. Done.
| cbsks wrote:
| The "chat with agent" option worked for me when I unsubscribed
| from nytimes a few months ago. They kept asking me questions
| and I kept responding "unsubscribe please" over and over again
| until they did it. It took maybe 5 minutes.
|
| Not a good experience.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I had a similar experience. I was able to do it via chat, but
| the guy asked multiple questions. He LOL'd at me when I
| refused what must have been some kind of exception offer (I
| don't remember, but it was probably six months or a year for
| free). Right then I decided I'd never be a NYT customer again
| under any circumstances.
| akeck wrote:
| Use a certified letter to their legal dept.
| sinecure wrote:
| nytimes is the worst, next to predatory gym memberships. It
| took me 45 minutes in a chat with the agent screen to cancel my
| membership, and they refused to send me any confirmation or
| email. He told me to screenshot our chat.
|
| The NYTimes is nothing more than a government propaganda
| machine these days, anyways.
| deeblering4 wrote:
| Because of this my approach these days is to use a different
| virtual credit card number for every subscription.
|
| That way when I want to cancel I can cut off the card to be
| sure I wont get charged again "by mistake"
|
| privacy.com is a good one
| ilamont wrote:
| Boston Globe and telecom providers in the states do the same
| thing - force you to talk with someone (I think the term is
| "retention specialist"). Naturally after having introductory
| rates expire and prices jacked up 50% or more you're angry and
| want to get out, but they have all kinds of new promotions or
| rates you can sign onto.
| jakub_g wrote:
| This is infuriating, but in the meantime you should find a bank
| that offers virtual and ideally virtual disposable cards. When
| I sign up for something new / untrusted and I'm not sure if I
| can unsub easily, I always use the virtual disposable CC so
| that they can only charge me once. 2nd charge will simply not
| work because the card is single-use.
|
| (Downside is, they can ban you forever if the charge doesn't go
| through, but for services that do those shady things, I
| wouldn't like to be their customer anyway).
|
| Re: the difficulty of unsubbing: GDPR specifies that
| disallowing consent should be as easy as allowing it. There
| should be similar law about online subs.
| oceanghost wrote:
| A few years back...
|
| Someone bought me a Sirius XM handheld unit for XMas. I _hated_
| it, used it for a few hours, cancelled the service, and
| returned the unit.
|
| 2 years later I get a several hundred dollar charge on a CC for
| another year or two of service of Sirius. I call up the CC
| company, and they say before I can file a dispute I have to
| call Sirius and try to straighten it out.
|
| I call up Sirius, explain, I only owned the unit for a few
| hours and that I had cancelled. And the customer-service agent
| said, "I understand. We don't care, we're billing you anyways."
| and hung up.
|
| I called the credit card company back, and they (probably)
| didn't believe me, but the agent said, "look, I'll put us on a
| 3-way call with Sirius, try and cancel your service again and I
| will listen and we will see what happens."
|
| So I went through the same process again, and _again_ Sirius
| literally said, "We understand you cancelled, there's nothing
| you can do."
|
| After the call, the CC company agent (I think Discover) said,
| "These people are crazy, I will take care of this."
| webwielder2 wrote:
| Remember that Google demo of the AI voice making reservations?
| That was dumb, but what wouldn't be dumb is the same thing but
| for cancelling subscriptions.
| iso1210 wrote:
| > Services handling recurring payments need to compulsorily
| have a cancel button.
|
| Provided on the card provider end.
| jdofaz wrote:
| I've never been willing to try a subscription with them due to
| stories like this. It actually taught me to do a quick search
| on how to cancel something before I subscribe. If I have to
| talk to someone I'm probably not ever going to subscribe.
| pstrateman wrote:
| You can send them an email.
|
| After that chargeback until they get the point.
| slownews45 wrote:
| Agreed 100% - SO ANNOYING!
|
| These are the same places that write hit pieces on big tech for
| "abusing" users - ie, Apple's payment platform which DOES let
| you easily cancel ALL subscriptions that you sign up through
| them and reminds you to do so if you delete apps etc.
| dnautics wrote:
| Same shenanigans with Netgear router customer service. They
| have a "you are _" in line customer service that sounds like
| it's glitched out to get you to quit. I stayed on the line.
| Estimate went from 40 minutes, randomly jumping around but also
| increasing to 90 minutes. After 2 hours (I just put it on
| speaker and kept coding) suddenly it went from 90 minutes to
| someone is speaking to me.
| outside1234 wrote:
| Agreed. It is totally messed up when it is just easier to
| cancel the credit card the charge goes to instead of the actual
| charge.
| rlpb wrote:
| > He doesn't let me cancel...
|
| This is the part that baffles me. There's no "let me cancel".
| You are giving notice of cancellation by telephone as required.
| Clearly the agent understands why you are calling. Therefore
| you have given notice. Therefore the service is cancelled. Any
| further attempt to charge your card is fraud.
|
| Of course it doesn't work this way in the US, since the cost of
| fighting this point there is more than the cost of your
| subscription. Therefore this kind of abuse is permitted there.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| This is one thing I _love_ about the subscription model on iOS.
| Apple forces vendors to go through their infrastructure, which
| means it 's always dead easy to stop something.
|
| What NYT (and others) do is just ridiculous and unethical.
| munk-a wrote:
| In particular - services should never be asymetrical in
| barriers to subscribe vs. unsubscribe - that's clearly a
| predatory tactic that exists to trap a portion of users as
| unwilling subscribers. I will _never_ support a company that
| operates in that manner - no matter how little or much I
| appreciate their services.
| thunkshift1 wrote:
| Similar story with wsj. They dont have a cancel online button
| and make you call a number. The agent then had me recite my
| (very long) name and email id multiple times because he 'could
| not understand my accent'. There is definitely a dark pattern
| here and for all their shitting on the big tech, nyt and wsj
| certainly dont shy from using their more lucrative but shady
| tactics.
| ansupter wrote:
| How long ago was this? I ask because I see a Cancel
| Subscription button in my account. I've only been a
| subscriber for about a month.
| 4d66ba06 wrote:
| Are you in California perhaps?
| ansupter wrote:
| No, I'm not.
| ozzythecat wrote:
| This reminds me of my story with LA fitness. They closed down
| their only location that's in a sane driving distance to me and
| said I could use my membership at the next closest location
| without paying extra, as if they were doing me a favor. After
| calling them to cancel, they refused to cancel on the phone and
| insisted I go into a physical location... well, it's 30 miles
| away, and I didn't have a car and I'm on crutches. Getting
| around was very difficult for me.
|
| In the meantime, they refused to even accept my phone call as a
| request to cancel. I was charged for three extra months, until
| I finally paid $100+ round trip to Uber to their location and
| cancel in person.
|
| LA Fitness is a soulless leech, and the fact that company is
| allowed to stay in business is testament to a corrupt
| government system.
| blitzar wrote:
| Sounds like an episode of Friends from the 90's
| iso1210 wrote:
| I WANNA QUIT THE GYM!
| blitzar wrote:
| I WANNA QUIT THE BANK!
| m463 wrote:
| Same problem with a gym I joined. They required a certified
| letter to hq to cancel. (well didn't _require_ it, but
| recommended certified)
| jccooper wrote:
| Sounds like a credit card chargeback to me.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| They will submit the debt to a debt collector and ding your
| credit if this is done. The debt is governed by the
| contract you signed, not by their ability to charge your
| card.
| handoflixue wrote:
| > The debt is governed by the contract you signed, not by
| their ability to charge your card.
|
| Yeah, but my ability to cancel is also governed by
| contract, not by their arbitrary policies around it.
| Unless the contract explicitly says otherwise, an email,
| chat, or phone call saying "I'm cancelling" is sufficient
| notice.
| thetinguy wrote:
| Have you ever read a gym contract?
| hangonhn wrote:
| That's what I did with 24 Hour Fitness. I had to cancel in
| person, which is ridiculous, but the guy told me that
| because of the way their system works, they will charge me
| for the next month too. When the charges showed up a month
| later, I use chargeback to refund the money and that was
| the end of it. Their system supposedly being slow to
| process isn't a reason for me to be charged another month;
| one shouldn't be rewarded for incompetence. I was ready to
| fight them on it because nowhere in the agreement did they
| mention charging me another month after cancelation but
| they let the chargeback stay -- probably because they know
| it's baseless and was hoping people won't bother fighting
| them.
| munk-a wrote:
| I honestly wouldn't be surprised if credit card companies
| essentially screen calls from some gyms. I can't imagine
| you're the first person to have a terrible experience
| with 24 Hr Fitness. I don't know if it'd go so far as to
| effect their credit score, but I imagine businesses like
| that are flagged in processing systems.
| tombert wrote:
| I've never been to LA Fitness, but I know Planet Fitness
| requires you to provide a voided check, and they directly
| withdraw from your bank account.
| KorematsuFredt wrote:
| Planet Fitness requires you to visit one of their
| branches to cancel or write a letter to the branch where
| you enrolled. I cancelled my membership last week.
| ct0 wrote:
| LA fitness doesn't process cancellations. You have to call
| and work with ABC Financial Services. I was able to actually
| get a refund because in my contract I was due a refund if the
| gym was closed for 30 or more days.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| For me, I ended up going to their location and they still did
| not cancel.
|
| I noticed it when I still got a charge. I then initiated a
| chargeback with the credit card company.
|
| Seems like this is common enough with them that they quickly
| gave me my money back.
| sharadov wrote:
| They had me mail in a cancellation letter a few years back.
| But I guess the scumbags have upped their game.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| This is why I subscribe to NYT crosswords via Apple iOS,
| cancelling is very easy!
| dmart wrote:
| This has downvotes currently for some reason, but it's true
| and I do the same thing for subscriptions whenever possible.
| There's one-click unsubscribe for any service purchased
| through Apple, it's really nice.
| llukas wrote:
| Developers need their freedom to try retention techniques
| on you. /s
| brianbreslin wrote:
| I heard anecdotally that you can use a VPN, switch location to
| california, log back in to nytimes and suddenly a cancel button
| appears on your manage your billing page.
| DeWilde wrote:
| Sounds like a very complex Roach Motel.
| Corence wrote:
| My chat with agent button was kind enough to work when I was
| canceling my crossword subscription. When they asked why I said
| that I suspected their unsubscribing process to be illegal
| under California law and their next message was that they had
| unsubscribed me.
| throwawayswede wrote:
| > This should be illegal.
|
| It should. But what sort of payment processor does NYT use?
| Isn't it possible to block/cancel/prevent their charge from
| your bank's end?
| jhugo wrote:
| Stripe emailed me about this the other day, and are handling it
| pretty seamlessly. Recurring charges are not being banned. An
| additional factor of authentication is required above a certain
| threshold, and pre-debit notifications need to be sent. They're
| sensible rules which more countries should adopt.
| tpl wrote:
| Am I wrong to say that it's not fair to say they banned all forms
| of recurring charges? I thought that most of the new regs were
| around informing the person about to be charged that it is coming
| and better handling for making the charges stop.
| KorematsuFredt wrote:
| I am so pissed with this rule. Every month I have to login into
| my AWS account and pay the bills manually even if it is just <
| $10.
| [deleted]
| vinay_ys wrote:
| Link is 2 years old article.
| 1024core wrote:
| 7 years old. It's from 2014.
| eatbitseveryday wrote:
| I wonder if you can take control yourself (albeit not real
| solutions) by:
|
| - reporting your card lost, requesting replacement
|
| - (with Apple Card) requesting a new number
|
| - disabling / locking the card temporarily during the period
| they'd try to charge you
|
| - use a service that provides a "virtual" card for such vendors,
| and then just deleting it (e.g. PayPal Key)
|
| Yes there is collateral damage in the process (other payments get
| dinged, you have to wait for a new card, etc.) but perhaps it
| would work, and you wouldn't lose money?
| abhijat wrote:
| This is a fairly old article, and the title suggests there is a
| recent ban on recurring charges. Am I missing something here?
| aero-glide2 wrote:
| Here's one from last week. https://wap.business-
| standard.com/article/finance/rbi-s-firm...
| Bang2Bay wrote:
| Much more detailed article from 6 months ago.
| https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-
| au...
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