[HN Gopher] Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain
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Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain
Author : underscore_ku
Score : 172 points
Date : 2021-09-27 13:43 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| sgt wrote:
| TBH I still think Brexit is a good choice for Britain. The EU is
| a terribly inefficient and hopeless organization (but perhaps I
| am a bit biased, I've always been opposed to the EU because it's
| far too heavy weight).
|
| Of course, they will suffer economically for a while, but that
| was part of the game with Brexit.
|
| The voters however - were slightly lied to regarding the
| immediate downsides. It's probably important to keep the big
| picture in mind.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| > The EU is a terribly inefficient and hopeless organization
|
| Compared to what? Efficiency always scaled poorly with size.
| For what it's worth, bureaucracies of US Federal government,
| not to mention those of China, India, Russia etc. are far
| worse, it seems.
|
| It's not about the EU's throughput of things, but things it
| enables. Things like efficient allocation of resources via a
| single economic area, for example.
| ethnt wrote:
| It absolutely was not the right choice for the UK (not just
| Britain, don't forget about Northern Ireland). The EU has
| definitely shown itself to be quick when it needs to be, and in
| general has improved life for the average person. There are
| nothing but downsides in the immediate and long-term future for
| the UK without the EU -- these economic consequences are not
| easily solvable, and the Tories have not shown themselves
| capable of actually solving these problems.
|
| The UK had a very privileged place in the EU before, and was
| able to punch above their weight. When they inevitably rejoin
| they certainly won't be able to hold that special status again.
| joeberon wrote:
| As a Brit, I think "slightly lied to" is a huge under-
| exaggeration. Literally everyone I spoke to who voted for
| Brexit did so entirely on the lies, for example the NHS money
| thing, specific claims about removing "foreigners", and
| promises of rebuilding of British-only enterprises.
| callamdelaney wrote:
| I seriously doubt this claim 'Literally everyone I spoke to
| who voted for Brexit did so entirely on the lies' - that
| seems to be a coping mechanism for anybody on the opposite
| side of a debate.
|
| If I had voted remain you could say I had done so on lies if
| my motivation was to prevent house prices dropping by 18% [1]
| - where as actually they have moved about 18% higher [2].
| There were no specific claims about removing foreigners, only
| the factually accurate statement that we could move to a
| points based immigration system if we wanted to.
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-
| referend... [2] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-
| kingdom/housing-index
| joeberon wrote:
| I'm sorry that the reality I experience does not line up
| neatly with the one you want to believe
| callamdelaney wrote:
| 'Literally everyone'? Not me, Joe - so now your previous
| comment is incorrect.
| joeberon wrote:
| I meant people I spoke to in person
| wsc981 wrote:
| _> I 'm sorry that the reality I experience does not line
| up neatly with the one you want to believe_
|
| Might it not be fairer to state the sentence either as
| this:
|
| _> I 'm sorry that the reality I want to believe does
| not line up neatly with the one you want to believe_
|
| ... or this ...
|
| _> I 'm sorry that the reality I experience does not
| line up with the reality you experience_
|
| All in good faith of the discussion.
| joeberon wrote:
| I don't think so personally. I see it based on what I
| know versus what they know. I know about my reality,
| whereas they want to believe something different about my
| reality. I'm not saying they want to believe something
| about their _own_ reality, I'm saying that it is about my
| own. I had an experience and they are saying "no, you
| didn't", which is them projecting their belief onto my
| experience of reality. So I think that both of your
| examples do not express what I meant.
| callamdelaney wrote:
| You have literally stated that any view which differs
| from yours is based on lies. Let me know how that works
| out for you.
|
| As an aside, this sort of attitude is probably why you
| 'better educated' people lost the vote.
| captaincaveman wrote:
| I can't say this is true for everyone that voted, but can
| sadly confirm that I know for many this is true, certainly
| had a significant impact in my opinion.
| davzie wrote:
| I'm sorry but you can't know that. The vast majority of
| people had probably made their decision before the messaging
| kicked in. Also you can claim the same the other way. The
| only reason people voted to remain is because of the scare of
| no drinking water, no medicines, fear of an instant market
| crash etc. Both sides can and were manipulated to some extent
| by false messaging that never came to be, but certainly not
| everyone voted the way they did as a result of that
| messaging.
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| You're replying to someone stating what others have told
| them, not making an assertion based on something they
| 'know'. Did you reply to the wrong comment perhaps?
| [deleted]
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Well... looks like the UK are the next in line to discover that
| paying people in essential industries shit wages leads to said
| shit outcomes.
|
| Over _many_ decades, employees in easy-to-learn and especially
| easy-to-outsource jobs were treated as disposable cogs, and now
| after Corona and other crisis crunches the whole house of cards
| comes crushing down.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| They would still be in the UK doing their shit jobs for shit
| wages, if they had a better visa situation...
| callamdelaney wrote:
| There is a massive shortage of HGV drivers across Europe and
| has been for years. 'It should be noted first and foremost
| that Britain's driver shortage is not a new phenomenon. Even
| in the heady days before Covid or Brexit, the UK was already
| lacking around 76,000 drivers, according to Logistics UK.'[1]
|
| [1] https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/supply-chain/the-real-causes-
| of-...
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| That is BECAUSE they are DISPOSABLE COGS. We got to where are
| we because the idiots in charge decided to CODDLE THEM.
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| Well, aren't we all in the West (if I may assume where you
| live) guilty of that? 55 inch TVs are $500 nowadays, mangoes
| flown from South America are less than $2 in my local
| supermarket, we like to fly to Thailand because vacationing is
| "dirt cheap" there...
| mcot2 wrote:
| Solar + Battery + EV - No need for a pump, just sayin...
| addingnumbers wrote:
| How much panel surface would you need to drive an EV, say, 100
| miles a week?
| vel0city wrote:
| This will need to make some assumptions based on how many
| good hours of solar generation you get. This will vary quite
| a bit based on latitude and season. Assuming you get ~6 hours
| of good generation a day on average, charging 7 days a week
| means you'll get 42 hours of good solar power output.
|
| Depending on your EV car, your driving habits, etc you might
| get ~4mi/kWh. So for 100mi, you're looking at 25kWh to get
| your 100mi weekly range.
|
| So over the course of 42 weekly hours, you'll need to come up
| with 25kWh. 25,000Wh / 42 hours converts to ~595.24W. So
| you'll want about 600W of generation capacity.
|
| Modern PV cells usually get ~150W per square meter, so 600 W
| / 150 W/m^2 = 4 m^2.
|
| You'll probably want to add a bit of additional overhead to
| deal with the weeks where you don't get quite a much sun and
| also with some of the losses in the system. As an additional
| note, this is only really thinking about the "peak" hours in
| the system. You'll get a few more hours a day charging at a
| lot of latitudes. This can also vary a decent bit based on
| the layout of your solar array.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| A Tesla does about 4 miles per kw, give or take. So 100 miles
| would use about 25 KWH. Typical solar panel setups for
| domestic usage are around 3-4 KW. So depending on the season,
| you could get to 25KWH in a single day in the summer and you
| might struggle to get there in a week in the winter. All
| depends on you latitude, cloud coverage, etc. If you are in
| the north of Scottland, probably not a great plan in the
| winter but fantastic yields in the summer due to the long
| days.
| sgt101 wrote:
| I've got a tesla and a plug, there's no need for a pump with
| that setup either...
| mikestew wrote:
| In ten years of Nissan Leaf ownership, I've needed neither
| solar panels nor a gas/petrol station to power it.
| jjgreen wrote:
| The Mash nailed this last week
|
| https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/britain-facing-long-...
| beardyw wrote:
| And NewsThump today:
|
| Government unveils 'guaranteed to work' petrol track & trace
| app to beat fuel crisis
|
| https://newsthump.com/2021/09/27/government-unveils-guarante...
|
| "You put in your location and details, and then next Tuesday
| you'll get an appointment to get precisely three litres of fuel
| from a pump in Sunderland"
| HPsquared wrote:
| People can only fill their tank, so it's self-limiting.
| joeberon wrote:
| What do you mean by that? They can fill jerry cans or siphon
| out fuel at home
| david_allison wrote:
| You can only store 30 litres of fuel at home.
|
| > You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-
| workplace premises without informing your local Petroleum
| Enforcement Authority (PEA).
|
| https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-
| club-...
| vel0city wrote:
| So what happens when that person brings the 31st litre of
| fuel home? It instantly disappears? Or maybe people will do
| it despite the law.
|
| In most states in the US its illegal to put gasoline in
| improper containers. This hasn't stop people from putting
| them into trash bins and plastic bags in fuel crunches in
| the US.
| HPsquared wrote:
| More generally, people have limited capacity by how many fuel
| containers they own. I don't think there is a massive supply
| of unused jerry cans anywhere, and and in any case it would
| take several cans to equal a single car tank.
| brianwawok wrote:
| Have a buddy with multiple 50 gallon "drums" he fills up
| with gas anytime he even suspects that gas price is going
| to go up.
|
| Sounds like a lot of work to maybe save $50, but hey...
| mostly fun and games (unless you barn catches fire).
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Gasoline has a shelf life also, particularly modern
| gasoline blended with ethanol and other additives. Ever
| had trouble using last year's gasoline in the lawn mower
| the following spring?
|
| Diesel generally stores better, but it can have problems
| with algae growth.
| JimmyAxod wrote:
| Apparently the new stuff only lasts around 30 days before
| it's useless.
| brianwawok wrote:
| Well, you can put $1 of stabilizer in and have it last
| for at least a year.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Of course some buyers are bigger than others but even
| your friend (unusual as he is) only has so many drums.
| ben_w wrote:
| Mm. A Facebook friend in the UK just reported a petrol
| tout to the police for storing more than 15 litres
| without a licence.
| bluGill wrote:
| Depends on where you live. Farmers in the US typically
| have around 8000 liters petro on their farm in various
| grades. They have a contract with a local company to keep
| those tanks full of whatever the correct fuel for the
| current season is. When it is a long way to town and many
| vehicles never go to town having your own private fuel
| station starts to make sense.
| brianwawok wrote:
| They also dye diesel, the dye shows no tax was paid so
| you get in poo-poo if you try to drive on public roads
| with it
|
| https://www.ricochetfuel.com/blog/dyed-diesel-fuel-vs-
| regula...
| oneplane wrote:
| People tend to find creative ways around this. Jerrycans have
| been used to carry additional fuel for example.
| throwawaymanbot wrote:
| Damn that labor govt.
| hardlianotion wrote:
| They are petrol stations.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Appears to be _mostly_ a mediagenic phenomenon: the driver
| shortage caused a few stations to run out, a minister told
| everyone not to panic buy, so they immediately started panic
| buying. Like the great toilet paper shortage.
|
| The lorry driver shortage inflicted by Brexit is starting to
| cause problems, though.
| ta988 wrote:
| For non UK-english aware, a lorry is a truck.
| wp381640 wrote:
| You can have one ass and buy a thousand rolls of toilet paper.
| You can't have one car and buy a thousand liters of fuel.
|
| This is pure supply shock
| WJW wrote:
| A sister comment on this article mentions that Halfords have
| seen jerrycan sales multiply 17-fold compared to last week.
| Perhaps a thousand liters is a bit much, but you can
| definitely get more than a carfull.
| davzie wrote:
| I honestly think Brexit was only a very small part of this.
| It's probably also a combination of IR35 making the entire
| endeavour not worthwhile for UK AND European workers and the
| government not having enough HGV tests available to bring newly
| qualified drivers into the workforce. It's a combination of a
| lot of different things.
| p_l wrote:
| I'm not sure drivers could fall afoul of IR35 anyway.
|
| What Brexit did impact it was that it removed EU cabotage and
| availability of drivers. For example, cargo would arrive on a
| RoRo ship in Dover, without changing to a british driver. The
| same driver could take other cargo while in UK (for example
| having delivered to point A, then taking a load from point A
| to another british location at point B, and finally taking a
| load from point B to a continental destination at point C).
| With Brexit, you suddenly have extra demand (as even with
| dimnished cargo traffic you need more drivers to service
| ports as cargo no longer comes with its own drivers) and
| inability to hire (whether complete firms through cabotage
| laws or simply due to smaller pool of candidates.)
| teamonkey wrote:
| I find that a strange take. There is a HGV driver shortage
| solely because a lot of drivers have left, due to Brexit. The
| UK wouldn't need so many extra HGV licences without Brexit,
| because drivers from the EU would be qualified. The IR35
| issues are because people in the UK are used to cheaper
| labour from mainland Europe, which is no longer available,
| due to Brexit.
|
| That's not to say that the UK government isn't
| characteristically unprepared, despite months or even years
| of warnings about these very issues, or that they couldn't
| have done better to mitigate problems.
| rjsw wrote:
| And poor working conditions. Why live in a truck when you can
| get paid the same to stack shelves in a supermarket and wake
| up in your own bed.
| telmo wrote:
| What a coincidence that something that was claimed for years
| to be a likely outcome of Brexit happened right in the
| aftermath of Brexit.... but it turns out that it was mostly
| unrelated to Brexit.
|
| What. A. Coincidence.
| Sanguinaire wrote:
| From a purely selfish perspective, the worst outcome of the
| pandemic so far is that it has served as a distraction and
| shield for Tories who bungled Brexit and have yet to face
| any political consequences.
| twic wrote:
| Only on a programmers' forum could this all be IR35's fault!
|
| (could well be true - but i did laugh out loud)
| Wildgoose wrote:
| IR35 doesn't just apply to programmers, it applies to
| everyone performing individual contract work through a
| Limited Company, (as originally recommended/insisted upon
| by the Inland Revenue).
| thrwyoilarticle wrote:
| >Like the great toilet paper shortage.
|
| I'm drawn to die on this hill every time. The toilet paper
| shortage made sense.
|
| At the start of the first lockdown in the UK, we were told to
| minimise contact with others. This meant that it made sense for
| a daily shopper to become a weekly shopper & a weekly shopper
| to become a biweekly shopper. And if you're shopping less
| frequently but consuming at the same rate, you'll be buying
| more volume each time. Shops don't have the means to react to
| an overnight doubling of demand, so the shelves became empty.
|
| To be efficient is to stop being resilient. The world runs on
| JIT. And if you buck that trend and make things resilient, you
| can't compete on price. So it's a race to the bottom where all
| it takes is one off-white swan event for things to fall apart.
| Does your country have food security? Does your country have
| energy security? If it does, what would it take for that to
| stop being true?
| thinkingemote wrote:
| We were also told to prepare to self isolate a family for 2
| weeks. That's a bunch of toilet roll for a normal sized
| family needed to stock up on. When internet deliveries were
| restricted to just the vulnerable too.
|
| Almost all "panic buying" is calm and rational.
| OJFord wrote:
| > When internet deliveries were restricted to just the
| vulnerable too.
|
| That never happened? Perhaps new sign-ups (at the company's
| discretion)?
|
| I had groceries delivered before the pandemic and continued
| throughout, only affect was that for a few months slots
| would be booked up weeks in advance of normal, so had to
| plan ahead more.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Additionally, everyone moved home and offices emptied out, so
| the daily/weekly/monthly demand for toilet paper went from
| 50/50 consumer/industrial to 100% consumer overnight. Those
| are two very different supply chains, with distinct, roughly
| (if you'll pardon the pun) incimpatible products, packaging
| and distribution networks.
| pasabagi wrote:
| The annoying thing was, my position on first lockdown was:
|
| 1. Covid doesn't generally disable young and healthy people,
| so there will be no supply shortage.
|
| 2. It will be nice to have a reason to go out if I'm cooped
| up inside all day, and buying groceries is a good one.
|
| Then of course, I ended up using napkins as toilet paper for
| a week, because everybody else thought different.
| hardlianotion wrote:
| A larger contribution to the driver shortage was the change in
| self employment status caused by IR35 off payroll legislation.
|
| https://driverrequire.co.uk/ir35
| https://www.contractoruk.com/news/0015112ir35_reform_fuellin...
|
| Lorry driver shortage is a fairly common phenom in Europe atm.
| yabatopia wrote:
| "Appears to be _mostly_ a mediagenic phenomenon: the driver
| shortage caused a few stations to run out".
|
| I believe it's more serious than just a mediagenic phenomenon,
| with only a few stations affected. From The Guardian:
| "Ministers are considering a range of options after BP said a
| third of its petrol stations had run out of the main two grades
| of fuel, while the Petrol Retailers Association (PRA), which
| represents almost 5,500 independent outlets, said 50% to 90% of
| its members had reported running out. It predicted the rest
| would soon follow."
| (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/27/eu-lorry-
| dr...)
| makomk wrote:
| It's still a mediagenic phenomenon. The driver shortage
| itself only caused a handful of petrol stations to run out -
| it was panic buying due to frenzied news headlines about
| petrol shortages that caused all the rest to run out of fuel.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| People on the whole do not know what "panic buying" actually
| is.
|
| I've had multiple conversations which run along the line of
| "I'm not panic buying, I am rational. I'm only buying this
| because others are panicking and there wont be any left for me.
| "
| fallingknife wrote:
| Sounds like they do understand panic buying. The issue is
| that it's completely rational on an individual level. "Panic"
| buying isn't really a good term for it.
| kipchak wrote:
| In the northeast it was typically bread and milk (and also
| toilet paper) people would stock up on before a big storm
| often causing shortages. I've seen "French Toast Alert"
| used but it's a bit too cute to quite capture it.
| [1]https://www.universalhub.com/french-toast
| thinkingemote wrote:
| The issue is that everyone thinks they are rational,
| there's not a bunch of people panicking and another bunch
| of people reacting to them. There's just one bunch!
|
| So yes the term is wrong but also people don't know what it
| is, and how they negatively contribute to the cycle.
|
| People don't panic when they "panic buy". People don't see
| themselves as panic buying and they are not reflective
| fallingknife wrote:
| They don't just think they are rational, they are
| rational. When there is a run on the bank, the rational
| thing to do is join the run, because if you do, you have
| a chance of getting your money, but if you don't, you
| have no chance. That is why this behavior is so hard to
| stop.
| yifanl wrote:
| I'm sure game theorists have studied this problem
| extensively so I could be very wrong and just showing off
| my ignorance, but I would think that the
| rational/utilitarian thing in a situation where a large
| number of actors are acting selfishly is to also act
| selfishly, assuming you have no effective method of
| influencing those other actors.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| My wife was the same during lockdown, I said there's no need
| to panic buy stuff we don't need. She told me she was just
| buying stuff so we could eat if the shelves went empty
| vel0city wrote:
| > She told me she was just buying stuff so we could eat if
| the shelves went empty
|
| In my opinion the best solution to this in uncertain times
| is to have a decent supply of shelf-stable foods and good
| recipes with them _before_ things get crazy. I try and keep
| at least a couple weeks of food on hand with a decent
| supply of shelf-stable stuff that 'll last a while in
| emergencies. Its not a bad idea to be familiar with recipes
| that use mostly dry and canned foods that may only require
| water and a hot pot to cook. Most of the time it means we
| slowly cycle though meh-level canned meals once a month to
| keep the canned foods fresh(er), but when grocery stores go
| empty or you don't feel safe to go outside its pretty nice.
| That said, there's plenty of nice recipes where you can
| substitute canned chicken, canned veggies, or evaporated
| milk without taking too much of a hit on overall quality of
| the meal. On the plus side a lot of those dry food recipes
| often work pretty well on camping trips.
| daxfohl wrote:
| Minister needs to tell everyone not to panic vaccinate.
| consp wrote:
| This reminds me of the video from the forklift driver in one of
| the warehouse where they store the toilet paper here. He was
| laughing as he drove by hundreds of meters high stacks of
| toilet paper.
|
| If that was any indication at least, it will last for a few
| days and then return to normal if supply can resume for normal
| demand (assuming it _can_ for _normal_ demand)
| rbanffy wrote:
| It's incredibly sad it's come to this, but it's an entirely self
| inflicted pain. Voters were lied to and this is the result.
| callamdelaney wrote:
| I'm sure we'll all shed a tear because 'brenda #fbpeu' had to
| queue up for some petrol she didn't need.
| rbanffy wrote:
| The reason more tears haven't been shed is probably because
| the consequences are so terrible nobody on either side had
| the will to enforce the original terms and timelines and
| Tories will try to kick this can down the road for as long as
| politically possible, perhaps much longer.
| w_t_payne wrote:
| Entirely deliberate Bullingdon-style class warfare.
| plutonorm wrote:
| Seems strange that this has nothing at all to do with the rapidly
| rising prices of petrol in the UK. Russia has been reducing the
| flow of petrol into Europe due to conflict over a new pipeline.
| The UK has a had a terrible windy season, meaning more demand for
| fossil fuels. And economic recovery after the pandemic, all these
| things have pushed prices really high.
|
| This shortage of drivers thing is likely a convenient side story
| to distract from the fundamental issue of high prices.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/aug/04/uk-petrol-pric...
| WJW wrote:
| How would a windy season lead to _more_ demand for fossil
| fuels? You 'd think all the wind turbines going full swing
| would mean less electricity has to be generated with non-
| renewable means, thereby reducing demand for fossil fuels.
| nicktelford wrote:
| By "terrible windy season", he means that a season that is
| usually expected to be very windy has instead been quite
| still.
| regularfry wrote:
| A terrible windy season is one in which there is less wind.
| This would be different to a terribly windy season, in which
| there is too much.
|
| We've just had a low-wind summer, increasing the demand for
| gas.
| [deleted]
| JimmyAxod wrote:
| The media need to be held accountable here.
|
| Everyone in the industry is telling anyone who will listen that
| there is no shortage of petrol (gas), and there is no shortage of
| drivers. Yet the media are still whipping the story because it's
| selling papers/views/clicks etc for them.
|
| This is yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, when there is no
| fire. There should be prosecutions for this sort of behaviour.
| Lives will be put at risk or lost because of this.
|
| And seriously, the public need to stop listening and believing
| the media. They have no morals, and they certainly do not care
| about truth.
|
| To those downvoting: If there is still a "crisis" next week, I
| will eat my hat. There is no crisis. You know this. The media
| will have moved onto the next "crisis" they can manufacture.
|
| From the article:
|
| > Drivers queued for hours to fill their cars at petrol stations
| that were still selling fuel, albeit often rationed. There were
| also calls for National Health Service (NHS) workers to be given
| priority to keep hospitals open
|
| That is just ridiculous. It's so far removed from reality. Who
| queued for hours? Who in their right mind is suggesting hospitals
| might close? It's just reckless reporting designed to make panic
| buying worse. And trying to link it to our decision to leave the
| EU years ago, is just utter desperation.
|
| You all know this is BS, and that in a couple of days, once the
| story has peaked, and the media has moved onto something else,
| the "crisis" will be over.
| BoiledCabbage wrote:
| > Everyone in the industry is telling anyone who will listen
| that there is no shortage of petrol (gas), and there is no
| shortage of drivers.
|
| If that were true, then there'd be no issue. But things were
| continuing to worsen before the media reported on it.
| JimmyAxod wrote:
| No they weren't. Certainly around here, the order of events
| was exactly this: * Petrol stations all chugging along
| normally * Media start scaring people into panic buying *
| Petrol stations overwhelmed by idiotic buying
|
| In a few days, it will all go away. The sky is not falling.
| prof-dr-ir wrote:
| Your claim that "there is no shortage of drivers" according to
| "everyone in the industry" is incorrect. From [0]:
|
| BP blamed the restrictions on "delays in the supply change
| which has been impact by the industry-wide driver shortages
| across the UK".
|
| Tesco said it had "experienced temporary supply issues caused
| by driver absences in recent days", adding: "We expect the
| situation to improve in the next week and apologise to our
| customers for any inconvenience caused."
|
| [0] https://inews.co.uk/news/hgv-driver-shortage-bp-to-start-
| rat...
| JimmyAxod wrote:
| I'd suggest you should listen to what the drivers, refinery,
| and actual garage staff say. I think you'll get much closer
| to the truth.
|
| Tesco aren't rationing petrol due to the "driver crisis".
| They are rationing it due to the media telling people to go
| and panic buy petrol.
|
| As you can see in the article, the only one with driver
| issues is BP. Other petrol stations have plenty. Yet they are
| all affected because of the media whipping consumers into
| panic.
|
| And as you can see in the article, BP reports that "between
| 50 and 100 stations affected". Out of 1200!!! That's not even
| newsworthy, yet the media are whipping and whipping.
|
| Can you see the issue with the following...
|
| > Petrol stations operated by Morrisons, The Co-op,
| Sainsbury's and Asda also said they had no current issues
| with their fuel supplies, the BBC reported.
|
| > LARGE FONT ALL BOLD! 'Rapidly worsening crisis'
|
| > Jim McMahon, Shadow Transport Secretary, described the
| lorry driver shortage as a "rapidly worsening crisis" that
| required urgent Government attention.
|
| So the petrol stations say it's all fine, and the article
| shouts "RAPIDLY WORSENING CRISIS". This, as I say, is
| disgraceful reporting, and is shouting "fire" in a crowded
| theatre where there is no fire.
| qzw wrote:
| _> "The free movement of labour is part of the European Union,
| and we tried very hard to convince the British not to leave the
| Union," said Olaf Scholz, the Social Democrat candidate to
| succeed Angela Merkel as German chancellor. "They decided
| differently. I hope they will manage the problems coming from
| that," Scholz said._
|
| Man, I can smell the schadenfreude from all the way over here.
| brightball wrote:
| You definitely get the impression that the other EU members
| intend to punish the UK for leaving.
| Swizec wrote:
| Or just treat them as they do any other non-EU country? The
| special deals and preferential treatment come with being in
| the EU. When you leave, they stop. Fair's fair.
| timellis-smith wrote:
| Not sure.
|
| "A fifth of all EU border checks are now happening in
| Northern Ireland, the government has said."
|
| https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/unsustainabl
| e...
|
| There is a distinct possibility that the EU is being
| vindictive
| dhosek wrote:
| Or there is the distinct possibility that this was a
| heavily-traversed border pre-Brexit and with Brexit it
| now requires a lot of border checks.
| timellis-smith wrote:
| I'm not going to argue whether the actual statement is
| true or not: Many people don't trust the government at
| the best of times but if it is true, I seriously doubt
| whether it constitutes 1/5 of all EU trade (assuming that
| border checks are in proportion to trade).
| Swizec wrote:
| Or people who live just across the border where there
| previously was none continue to commute to work daily,
| now across a border.
|
| With time countries usually end up passing treaties to
| make these regular passings easier. When you are a
| country newly enforcing the Schengen border it's a high
| faff affair and closely scrutinized.
|
| I remember when Slovenia first got the border it caused
| huge problems and long delays.
| rjsw wrote:
| > Or people who live just across the border where there
| previously was none continue to commute to work daily,
| now across a border.
|
| The checks are at the ports in NI, the whole point of the
| agreement between the EU and UK was to avoid any checks
| at the land border between NI and the Irish Republic.
| snarf21 wrote:
| Not helping them solve their problems is different than
| actively punishing them.
| rusk wrote:
| But they did try to help! They spent years trying to
| negotiate some kind of trade deal, as many European
| economies stood to lose out ... but it's clear that the
| unilateral no deal approach was the plan from the outset.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Brexit did come with a healthy dose of "F-u" to the rest of
| the EU. Hard to keep back the smile I suppose.
| [deleted]
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| What would they need to do to convince you they don't intend
| to punish the UK?
|
| Would they try to force migrant workers to work in the UK,
| even against applicable UK law?
|
| Other EU politicians have been quite diplomatic and friendly
| during the whole thing. A lot unlike a certain Prime Minister
| from a former EU member I could name.
| brightball wrote:
| Just an observation. Ever since the announcement it seems
| like various groups on Reddit and elsewhere want to
| celebrate every difficulty that the UK experiences.
| eCa wrote:
| I don't think it's reasonable to equate reddit with other
| EU member states.
|
| As an EU citizen I'm sorry that UK left. And I do hope
| that things will not get much worse in the UK, though I
| fear they might.
|
| I do think that brexit is the biggest self-inflicted harm
| a country has voluntarily done to itself in a really long
| time.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| >I do think that brexit is the biggest self-inflicted
| harm a country has voluntarily done to itself in a really
| long time.
|
| As someone who lives in the UK, I agree.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I think it's UK remainers pointing out the difficulties.
| Which is somewhat understandable considering:
|
| - Their political opponents have spent months dismissing
| their concerns as scaremongering.
|
| - Many would still like us to rejoin the EU at some
| point. So it makes sense to point out the advantages of
| doing so.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| The UK will rejoin at some point, especially because the
| younger generation will demand it, but it will have to
| take a decade, more likely two, unless Brexit proves to
| be an uncontroversial disaster and GB falls behind
| extremely. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
|
| There is just too much national pride around this move,
| and the British political system is so thoroughly messed
| up that it will take one or two leadership generations
| for them to come to their senses. They can hardly manage
| the exit, the Reintegration would be even harder.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| in two decades, there will not be any "EU" to rejoin
|
| the next downturn will see more EUxits
| danjac wrote:
| The tragic thing is that this is just a re-run of
| history, with the whole "first time tragedy, second time
| farce" ring.
|
| After the Suez Crisis in 1953 it was clear to the British
| establishment that the US would put its own interests
| first over its allies, and the UK was a busted flush as a
| world power. Without its empire its only future was as a
| "first among equals" in the European project.
|
| It spent the next two decades trying to get into the EU
| (or EEC as it was then) despite objections from Charles
| de Gaulle and domestic opposition on both sides of the
| aisle. But by the early 70s it was clear that Britain was
| not only no longer a world power, but was unable to keep
| the lights on. The Common Market - plus North Sea oil -
| was the lifeline.
|
| Now the UK is back where it was in the 70s, only this
| time the North Sea oil wells are running dry and it is
| out of the EU with no prospect of joining soon, having
| trashed relations with its closest neighbours.
| JetSetWilly wrote:
| > The UK will rejoin at some point, especially because
| the younger generation will demand it, but it will have
| to take a decade, more likely two, unless Brexit proves
| to be an uncontroversial disaster and GB falls behind
| extremely. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
|
| It seems unlikely. I would say it is more likely that
| being outside the EU leads to more euroscepticism among
| the young. Perceiving the sharp end of EU incompetence -
| triggering article 16 without even informing Ireland - or
| malice, such as seizing vaccines and the whole
| propagandistic negative portrayal of the UK during the
| vaccine rollout in the EU - has already led many a former
| remainer to think that the EU is not the most fantastic
| of institutions.
|
| It is certainly true that there are many in the EU keen
| to paint every minor event as some sort of disaster for
| the UK. They will gladly ignore the wider context of the
| pandemic, of driver shortages in the EU as well, of this
| being a purely manufactured demand-side panic buy
| "shortage" - to gleefully jump up and down shouting about
| the UK being self harming and it is all 100% brexit. It
| really comes across as deceitful propaganda I am afraid -
| and people take note and the EU loses its shine bit by
| bit.
| alistairSH wrote:
| I wonder how that Euro-scepticism among the young breaks
| across the UK's internal borders? Scotland (62% remain)
| and NI (56% remain) didn't want Brexit. Will that
| sentiment hold over the next 5-10 years, or will they
| slowly follow England and Wales in being anti-EU (both
| ~53% leave)?
|
| I always thought the Brexit vote should have required a
| supermajority.
| tolien wrote:
| The related question is how long the UK will survive with
| an SNP/SNP-Green government in Scotland and customs
| restrictions at the NI-GB border. For the same reason
| that time make an EU re-entry more likely (pro-EU
| sentiment skews inversely with age), the likelihood there
| won't be a UK to rejoin also goes up.
| meepmorp wrote:
| > Their political opponents have spent months dismissing
| their concerns as scaremongering.
|
| Years, not months. Pretty much all concerns about Brexit
| were dismissed as being Project Fear.
| eynsham wrote:
| Every day I quake in my boots at the thought of the
| hideous revenge r/France will inflict upon us.
| ben_w wrote:
| Reddit groups aren't EU members.
|
| And Schadenfreude isn't punishment.
| Scarblac wrote:
| Yes, but there's no need for any punishment on top of
| what Brexit is.
| Isinlor wrote:
| As a Polish citizen I want to see post-Brexit UK
| struggle, so that my government doesn't get any stupid
| ideas of leaving EU.
| fsslrisrchr wrote:
| As an Italian citizen, I hope for Poland to leave so my
| country's net transfers less money to the eastern
| countries and will, hopefully, encourage Italy to grow a
| pair and leave
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| Yes, there was razor-thin margin for the Leave campaign,
| with massive lies being told, partially financed by
| Russia, and the younger generation generally opposed.
|
| It makes travelling in the EU harder, let alone it risks
| upsetting the Ireland situation. You can expect an
| international audience to disapprove.
| timellis-smith wrote:
| That's quite a claim. Do you have some strong evidence to
| back it up?
|
| The electoral commission went to great lengths and
| expense to find any wrong doing and came up with nothing.
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics
| /20...
|
| Edit: Rant alert: It really irks me that the people who
| call the Brexit election unfair, don't seem to
| acknowledge that Britain was never given any kind of
| referendum when joining the EU
|
| "Although the United Kingdom ratified the treaty in
| Parliament, this was not without some opposition. Broadly
| the governing Labour party supported the treaty, while
| the opposition Conservatives did not. The Liberal
| Democrats supported the treaty, while calling for a
| referendum on the UK's membership of the EU as a
| whole.[119] Several 'Eurosceptic' MPs called for a
| referendum on the ratification of the treaty. Daniel
| Hannan pointed out that the Prime Minister, Tony Blair
| had twice promised a referendum on the matter, to which
| Blair replied that he had promised a referendum on the
| European Constitution rather than the Lisbon Treaty,
| which unlike the former was not a constitutional
| treaty.[120] In early October 2007, the Commons' European
| Scrutiny Committee had found that the treaty was
| "substantially equivalent" to the rejected
| constitution.[121]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratific
| ation_of_the_Treaty_of_...
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| Your source is behind a paywall, and I'm not interested
| in paying the Telegraph, but it seems there's a factual
| inaccuracy in your statement - the electoral commission
| did not 'come up with nothing'. They imposed a fine,
| referred Vote Leave to the police, and Vote Leave dropped
| their appeal.
|
| https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/vote-
| lea...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/29/vote-
| leave-...
| timellis-smith wrote:
| Later article from a non-paywalled source:
| https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/19/pro-
| brexit-...
| ectopod wrote:
| The UK joined in '73. After the terms were finalised
| there was a referendum in '75 where the public agreed to
| stay in.
|
| "Never given any kind of referendum" is far fetched.
| timellis-smith wrote:
| "After the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon in
| 2009 the pillar structure ceased to exist. The European
| Community, together with its legal personality, was
| absorbed into the newly consolidated European Union which
| merged in the other two pillars (however Euratom remained
| distinct). This was originally proposed under the
| European Constitution but that treaty failed ratification
| in 2005."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community
|
| So no, the UK joined the EU in 2009.
|
| Also note:
|
| The Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe (TCE;
| commonly referred to as the European Constitution or as
| the Constitutional Treaty) was an unratified
| international treaty intended to create a consolidated
| constitution for the European Union (EU). It would have
| replaced the existing European Union treaties with a
| single text, given legal force to the Charter of
| Fundamental Rights, and expanded Qualified Majority
| Voting into policy areas which had previously been
| decided by unanimity among member states.
|
| The Treaty was signed on 29 October 2004 by
| representatives of the then 25 member states of the
| European Union. It was later ratified by 18 member
| states, which included referendums endorsing it in Spain
| and Luxembourg. However, the rejection of the document by
| French and Dutch voters in May and June 2005 brought the
| ratification process to an end.
|
| Following a period of reflection, the Treaty of Lisbon
| was created to replace the Constitutional Treaty. This
| contained many of the changes that were originally placed
| in the Constitutional Treaty but, instead of repealing
| and replacing the existing treaties, simply amended them
| and abandoned the idea of a single codified constitution.
| Signed on 13 December 2007, the Lisbon Treaty entered
| into force on 1 December 2009.
|
| So it was initially reject, some cosmtetic changes were
| made and it was shoe-horned through. Hardly what I would
| call democratic
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Const
| itu...
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| > _So no, the UK joined the EU in 2009._
|
| The "European Union" as an entity came into existence at
| the time of the Maastricht Treaty (aka Treaty on European
| Union), and the UK was a signatory to that treaty. That
| was in 1992.
|
| Could you explain why you think 2009 is the relevant
| date?
| timellis-smith wrote:
| My apologies, I misread the quote and retract the earlier
| statement.
|
| While we did have a referendum to join the EEC, I
| maintain that the EEC served a very different purpose
| (being a trade based agreement) to the EU.
|
| The Treaty of Maastricht was passed by parliament, though
| was never put to the public vote.
|
| The subsequent treaty of Lisbon and consolidation of the
| EU had no public vote either.
|
| Brexit was a public vote.
|
| It would be interesting to see what would have happened
| if the other two had been put to the vote
| ben_w wrote:
| One thing I've noticed a lot of in the last five years,
| has been that the thing being objected to by a Leave
| supporter can vary from the Budapest Memorandum on
| Security Assurances[0] to the Lisbon treaty.
|
| When it's half the country each way, you're going to get
| a lot of people with very different ideas on what they
| voted for even at the best of times; with two different
| competing leave campaigns and shockingly inept government
| communications on the topic, it's even worse.
|
| [0] I've tried to engage with someone who blamed "the EU"
| for Russia annexing the Ukraine.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| It's worth saying that the UK has essentially no long-
| standing history of direct plebiscite / national
| referendum as a democratic process. Ironically, the first
| I'm aware of was the 1975 vote on EC membership.
|
| You're right that there was no referendum for the Treaty
| of Maastricht which formally created "the European
| Union", but I think that places undue significance on
| that single event in terms of the trajectory of the
| European communities.
|
| Personally, I don't think the Brexit referendum was
| unfair (what does that even mean?).
|
| I do think that "the Brexit that was voted for" (i.e. the
| Leave platform) was quite different from "the Brexit that
| we got", and I therefore have some sympathy with those
| who ask for another vote. Whether the difference between
| the two versions of Brexit is down to deliberate lies,
| misunderstanding of the scope and complexity, wrong
| expectations about the ease of concluding agreements with
| trade partners, I cannot even begin to guess.
| ben_w wrote:
| Leave.EU Group Limited:
|
| https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-
| what-w...
|
| Conclusion: Leave.EU was ultimately fined PS66,000 in
| total after their appeal.
|
| Vote Leave Ltd:
|
| https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-
| what-w...
|
| Conclusion: commission found evidence, issued fines, most
| significant fines appealed, commission lost appeal and
| paid costs.
|
| Investigation into payments made to Better for the
| Country and Leave.EU:
|
| https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-
| what-w...
|
| Conclusion: The Commission had reasonable grounds to
| suspect a number of criminal offences and have referred
| the matter to the National Crime Agency, who investigated
| and found not much.
| timellis-smith wrote:
| I'm genuinely confused by this: In 2018, Grimes was fined
| PS20,000 by the Electoral Commission after it determined
| that there was evidence that BeLeave had spent more than
| PS675,000 with the Canadian political consultancy firm
| AggregateIQ in coordination with the official Brexit
| campaign organisation Vote Leave in distribution targeted
| social media advertisements.[24] The Commission argued
| that these actions violated electoral spending rules, and
| that Grimes and Vote Leave official David Alan Halsall
| had made false declarations relating to the spending.
| Grimes appealed, claiming that his misstatements were
| unintentional, and his fine was overturned;[25] Vote
| Leave, however, withdrew its appeal and paid fines
| totalling PS61,000.[26] Subsequently, in May 2020, the
| Metropolitan Police ended its investigation into Grimes
| and Halsall.[27] In June 2021, the Chairman of the
| Electoral Commission apologised to Grimes in a Sunday
| Telegraph interview.[28]
|
| They lost their appeal but the Chairman of the Electoral
| Commission aplogised, and the Met found nothing
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| https://brexitlies.com/
|
| There's a handy dropdown that lets you pick the lie you
| want to explore.
|
| EDIT: I replied to the wrong comment accidentally due to
| the delayed rendering from an HN helper extension I use,
| my apologies. I can't delete the comment once someone has
| replied to it.
| timellis-smith wrote:
| That's all good and well, but I don't think it answered
| my question about a source for accusations of Russian
| involvement, nor did it address my question about the
| lack of democratic process when joining the EU, so I'm
| not entirely sure why you posted this.
| [deleted]
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| Wikipedia says the investigation is ongoing an there
| seems to be some evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
| Russian_interference_in_the_20...
|
| Given what we know about Russian interference in other
| elections, it would be strange if Putin said "Nah, let's
| sit this one out..."
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| When you cut off your foot with an axe, the bystanders are
| not punishing you when they observe that you're having
| trouble putting on your pants afterwards.
| shapefrog wrote:
| I guess your ex wife not giving you a blowjob after your
| divorce would probably give you the impression she was
| 'punishing you for leaving'.
| s_dev wrote:
| You also get the impression the UK wanted to have its cake
| and eat it too. Some of the Brexit political promises are
| pure delusion. I think a few over zealous Brexiteers might be
| conflating not getting rewarded with punishment.
| rusk wrote:
| EU membership conferred privileges which were seen as
| entitlements, so when inevitably withdrawn it seems like
| punishment.
|
| It has to be said though, that the EU did go to great
| lengths to try to find some kind of common ground that
| would leave much of the entitlements in place (as a matter
| of self-interest of course, as these amounted to business
| for various EU states) - to which the HMG responded with
| V-signs and blowing loud Benny-Hill raspberries.
|
| To trade across international borders you have to have
| agreements, and you can't have an agreement with somebody
| who openly flouts the rules at every given opportunity.
|
| I wouldn't be relying on your neighbours' nativist agendas
| to drive some sort of "free trade" angle either cause
| nativism typically favours tariffs.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I definitely sense a smug air of "this is all your fault and
| you deserve every ounce of pain for leaving. Let that be a
| lesson to you!"
| toofy wrote:
| Considering how smug the pro-leave people were and how they
| were repeatedly and loudly insulting towards those who
| wanted to remain, surely we're not surprised.
|
| Particularly when people were screaming at the tops of
| their lungs, "There's a lot of absolutely fundamental
| societal wide issues that should be considered..."
|
| There is nothing shocking here.
| evgen wrote:
| 'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman
| who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| >" 'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs
| woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces
| Party."
|
| Yep! This is exactly the kind of sentiment I was talking
| about.
| teorema wrote:
| ... except there's also news reports everywhere of an energy
| crisis in Europe too? Also maybe Asia as well.
|
| I've been trying to read into the causes and dont feel like
| I've come to understand it any better. I'm tempted to see it as
| part of the broader supply chain crisis but I get the
| impression its a little different.
|
| Then again I'm not sure I understand why the broader supply
| chain disruption is as pervasive as it is at this point in
| time.
| albertopv wrote:
| In Italy I can buy gas everywhere as much as I want/can.
| There are anticipations of truck drivers shortage in Italy
| too, but guess, there's a whole EU labor market to try to fix
| that.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| Same for all? of continental Europe. Prices are up a couple
| of cents but no sign of a supply crisis.
| [deleted]
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Apparently, petrol (gas for Americans) is plentiful at the
| refineries, but there aren't truck drivers who can drive it
| to the petrol station. For some weeks now, supermarkets have
| been somewhat sparsely stacked (no shortage of food in
| general, but definitely limited ranges etc.).
|
| There is no direct link to the spikes in energy prices.
| mnw21cam wrote:
| It should be noted that the photographs that the news
| outlets use in the articles about supermarket shortages are
| mostly from last year. It's deceptive.
| louthy wrote:
| We don't need to rely on photographs to physically see
| the sparse shelves with our own eyes
| polka_haunts_us wrote:
| I dunno, this site probably disproportionately represents
| the kind of demographic who just orders all their
| groceries on Amazon Fresh and hasn't set foot in a
| grocery store in months anyways. Maybe some people do
| need photos.
| tialaramex wrote:
| Still, there _are_ shortages. For example, my local
| supermarket has for a month or so had signs explaining
| that "Supply difficulties" may mean some items aren't in
| stock, e.g. most of the Italian ready meals section (I
| like Italian and I'm lazy) is replaced by an incongruous
| display of Italian wine, even though the wine section is
| actually on the far side of the store.
|
| They are clearly struggling. And even if Brexit is only
| 10% of the problem, they run into the fact that it's
| _key_ to central government policy to portray Brexit as
| successful, and so you mustn 't mention that element.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| True.
|
| That said, my local large Tesco had a small few aisles
| completely empty - yoghurts I think, and some fruit and
| veg.
|
| Clearly not an apocalyptic situation, and much better
| than the Great Toilet Tissue Shortage, but unsettling
| nonetheless.
| sgt101 wrote:
| I went to the supermarket on Saturday - every shelf was
| fully stacked - I walked around looking for missing things.
| I got bored and bought a steak and a bottle of wine and
| went home.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| The issue with free movement of labor is that it only works out
| well across a region with standardized pay rates. Otherwise
| corporations will import labor from the low-cost zones and fire
| their high-cost local workers. This causes a lot of anger, see
| Brexit.
| shmatt wrote:
| And yet the truck driver openings, now that the low cost
| workers are gone, have yet to see a significant pay rise to
| bring in locals that have never considered the job until now
|
| And if, lets say, the corporations will now have to pay
| double for UK citizens to drive the gas delivery trucks.
| Wouldn't that raise the gas prices quite considerably?
|
| The world outside the UK is working pretty well with labor
| import. Even a certain US ex-president was speaking about how
| bad it was, while he was requesting hundreds of low cost work
| visas for his vineyards (got to keep costs low...)
| heisenzombie wrote:
| > Wouldn't that raise the gas prices quite considerably? I
| would be surprised if the distribution cost of petrol was
| more than 2% of the pump price. Quick googling gives
| numbers of around 2p/litre, around 5 years ago. That's
| total distribution costs, not just driver pay.
|
| This suggests that doubling the pay of the truck drivers
| would make a much less than 2% increase in pump prices.
| [deleted]
| madaxe_again wrote:
| An _outcome_ of free movement is flattening of income
| distribution across geography. Nowhere stays cheap, as wage
| inflation hits, and nowhere stays expensive, as employers
| move to cheaper places.
|
| Sure, cities will be wealthier than the regions, but
| ultimately a city in Romania and a city in sweden,
| infrastructure and education being also equalised through
| structural funds, should present equal opportunities.
| notatoad wrote:
| Yeah, that's what people keep saying. But if it were true,
| the staff shortages post-brexit would be easily resolved by
| simply paying a bit more.
|
| The continued staff shortages would seem to mean that it's
| not simply an issue of pay, and there aren't enough Brits
| willing to do those jobs.
| djhworld wrote:
| > that it's not simply an issue of pay, and there aren't
| enough Brits willing to do those jobs.
|
| From what I've read (and take this with a pinch of salt)
| there are a lot of licensed HGV drivers in the UK who don't
| drive anymore, with common reasons being long, unsociable
| working hours, management that treat you like dirt, shitty
| rules around where they can park to take rest stops with
| substandard (typical everywhere in the UK...) facilities,
| and pay that hasn't risen in decades.
|
| This, combined with not enough younger folk taking up the
| job, along with Brexit, has led to a shortage
| sockpuppet_12 wrote:
| This seems like a case of trying to cram the ruinous
| practices back into pandora's box, which has been leaking
| for a very long time. Transport companies have had a long
| time to optimise their extraction of value from cheap,
| easily exploitable employees from overseas.
|
| The easily exploitable workers aren't available anymore,
| so the companies who exploited them will have to change
| their exploitation habits if they want to fill their
| positions from the remaining labour pool.
|
| Of course a landed citizen isn't going to sign up to be
| treated unfairly if they don't have to, they're not as
| desperate and therefore not as exploitable. I imagine
| they're reading the terms of employment on these
| positions with disgust, and so they should.
| Closi wrote:
| There has been a driver shortage for years - a whole
| variety of factors have just all come along at the same
| time to knock it over the edge and cause all the
| resulting chaos.
| [deleted]
| hogFeast wrote:
| Not really. The ones who are angry about this are lobbyists
| representing haulers.
|
| Most people in the UK are very supportive of HGV drivers
| finally being paid a fair wage. It is unfortunate that
| political leaders side so quickly with large corporations
| (although not surprising in Germany, it isn't usual in the UK,
| the public won't take it).
| simonswords82 wrote:
| Not suggesting that there are not other factors (Brexit, Covid
| etc) but the media have to shoulder the "panic" element of this.
|
| E.g. stop publishing photos of queueing cars and cordoned off
| pumps and report purely on the statistics of the matter. Too many
| media outlets are entirely hell bent on getting clicks without a
| care for the furore they induce in the general public as a
| result.
|
| Social media does of course amplify the messages and images the
| media put out, so they compound the issue.
| furyg3 wrote:
| If this is true, this should only inconvenience people for a
| week or two. Unlike toilet paper, average citizens don't really
| have a way to store 100x more than their normal weekly
| consumption of petrol. So if there are no supply issues and
| only some distribution challenges, demand will slump off once
| everyone has had a chance to fill their tank and the 1-2
| jerrycans they may have lying around.
| jjgreen wrote:
| Panic buy Jerry-cans!
| mrlonglong wrote:
| Shh! We mustn't let the Tory voters see that or we'll have
| another bloody shortage!
| [deleted]
| enlyth wrote:
| You're joking but I read this on the news today: "Halfords
| recorded a seventeenfold rise in the number of jerry cans
| sold over the weekend compared with the same period a week
| earlier."
|
| Also if you check Amazon UK, most jerry cans now have
| limited stock and longer delivery times
| mkohlmyr wrote:
| It's not unlike the panic buying at the start of the pandemic.
| The media is driving this hysteria because a) it fits their
| narrative around brexit, and b) fear & outrage sells.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > fear & outrage sells
|
| Or put another way, fear & outrage buy.
| yifanl wrote:
| The media may have made the problem appear a little faster,
| but they can't be the actual cause of the shortage, the
| supply strain existed well before the first headline was ever
| pushed.
| simonswords82 wrote:
| Yes the strain was there but if you publish front page news
| every day that the pumps are "running dry" then you're
| going to cause a spike in demand.
| louthy wrote:
| > it fits their narrative around brexit
|
| What narrative around Brexit? I see a lack of narrative
| around Brexit. We are always told about "supply chain issues"
| with barely any reflection on the cause.
|
| Yes, other nations in Europe have supply chain issues, but
| they're not seeing the problems we're seeing in the uk.
|
| This is a Brexit issue, but no major media outfit seems to be
| holding the government (who are the architects of the exit
| and the deal) accountable. Especially the serial liar at the
| top.
| zyemuzu wrote:
| Edgelord leftist.
| silisili wrote:
| This is exactly what happened during the Colonial pipeline
| fiasco. They themselves said if things went normally, there'd
| be no shortage. Of course the media had a field day with that
| one nationwide. Florida, who doesn't even get gas from it, saw
| outages and long lines for gas. I wish there were more controls
| for prosecuting media companies.
| invalidusernam3 wrote:
| I would be less inclined to try find a pump if I saw photos of
| long queues and closed forecourts
| newbamboo wrote:
| Diesel too?
| traveler01 wrote:
| "British ministers have insisted that Brexit is nothing to do
| with the current trucker shortage."
|
| BUT...
|
| "The government on Sunday announced a plan to issue temporary
| visas for 5,000 foreign truck drivers."
|
| The politicians think that everyone's dumb. If you need to pass
| temporary visas, a thing that truckers didn't needed when UK was
| in the EU, clearly Brexit caused this issue.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Brexit didn't cause it, it just made it more obvious. The
| problem is not a shortage of drivers, it is the poor pay and
| conditions.
| Bud wrote:
| This is all actually due to the initial phases of the inevitable
| collapse of the Galactic Empire, as foreseen by Hari Seldon.
| sgt wrote:
| How can we counteract this. Should perhaps one or two
| settlements be created at the opposite ends of the Earth be
| established? In order to make ready for the new empire?
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| One in Cornwall and one on the Orkneys should be enough.
|
| It's more of a local British problem...
| binbag wrote:
| The British did this a while back when their Empire still
| looked strong - the Foundation was North America. The silent
| sleeper cell second foundation is probably New Zealand.
| Unfortunately, Boris Johnson a.k.a the Mule came along.
| _1tan wrote:
| Any blueprints for these settlements we can use?
| ben_w wrote:
| Land's End and Marshall Meadows Bay should suffice.
|
| Although at this rate, Northumberland will be accidentally
| seceded to a newly independent Scotland, and the entity of
| Cornwall will become part of an independent Wales.
| mise_en_place wrote:
| The headline title is misleading, to say the least. It should
| read "Pumps run dry at some gas stations in Britain". This is
| normal and to be expected due to record high crude oil prices and
| logistics/shipping prices.
| binbag wrote:
| It's OK everyone, the government says there is no shortage, so
| there isn't one. That's how it works in the New Sovereign UK.
| gpderetta wrote:
| Well it didn't take long after the apocalypse to go full Mad Max
|
| Hopefully it is just another toilet roll craze.
| TomGullen wrote:
| Unlike the toilet paper panic buying there is limited capacity
| people can buy, so I would expect this to naturally end short
| term when people don't have capacity to buy any more.
|
| What concerns me is government planning to address this looks a
| lot more forward looking than a few days/a week, so I can see it
| getting worse.
|
| Interesting how the government say it's not a shortage, if the
| refineries were running low you wouldn't say there's no shortage
| as there's plenty of crude lying under the sea bed. If I can't
| buy petrol at the pump then for all intents and purposes it is a
| shortage.
|
| I feel like there's a chance here there is a systemic issue and
| "panic buyers" are a convenient scape goat as I think most people
| are just filling up to the top instead of half way, or going a
| little earlier than they would otherwise. No actors doing this
| would class themselves as panic buyers, but there's a lot of
| vitriol and anger towards the concept of a panic buyer which is a
| convenient diversion away from other causes.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| I think it was unclear as to why there is no gas. Is it because
| there are no drivers to drive the gas to the stations or
| because the general energy supply for GB currently sucks?
| gertrunde wrote:
| Originally, there were a handful (like 3-6 or so) stations
| that ran out of fuel due to a BP driver shortage.
|
| The resulting media-fuelled spate of panic buying overloaded
| normal delivery cycles.
|
| There is plenty of product stored at the ports/refineries
| themselves.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| The official line is that there is a lack of truck drivers,
| which is mostly true because Brexit has prevented a lot of
| the foreign drivers from working
| native_samples wrote:
| That's actually not the official line. That's the line of
| the Road Hauliers Association. The government line was
| provided to the Telegraph yesterday, and goes like this:
|
| - There is only really a "shortage" of about 100-150 tanker
| drivers in the entire country.
|
| - The petrol shortage was caused by aforementioned hauliers
| association deliberately telling the press that there was
| about to be a massive fuel shortage. That wasn't true but
| triggered panic buying, provoking an artificial "crisis"
| that was used (successfully) to put pressure on the
| government to issue some visas to eastern European
| truckies.
|
| - There are more vacancies for HGV drivers, but that's
| mostly due to a lockdown-induced backlog at the driver
| licensing authority, combined with many people who have HGV
| licenses not wanting to drive due to poor pay and
| conditions.
|
| - Brexit isn't the cause of this (which at any rate came
| into effect at the start of the year), except via a rather
| tortuous route ... the people at the RHA who manipulated
| the public through the press are all notoriously and
| outspokenly anti-Brexit, and they unfortunately have a
| history of leaking, in fact their press guy is a former BBC
| journalist already known to the government for prior
| leaking. BBC is of course notoriously anti-Brexit
| culturally. Therefore it is very likely these people saw an
| opportunity to both make money by getting access back to
| cheap labour whilst simultaneously winning a propaganda
| victory by convincing everyone to blame Brexit.
|
| - And in fact Brexit has allowed the government to rapidly
| adjust the criteria for licensing HGV drivers to help clear
| the backlog, which wouldn't otherwise have been possible
| under EU rules.
|
| So that's the official line at the moment.
| gm3dmo wrote:
| http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/924574.stm interesting that
| in 2000 the panic was sparked by an active measure, e.g.
| a physical blockade of refineries, this time round it
| only took a leaked document.
| [deleted]
| heywherelogingo wrote:
| No mention of lockdown effects detracts from the
| credibility of that comment.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| I can tell you now, the UK has functionally no
| restrictions within the country. You ought to wear masks
| on public transport, that's about it. Lockdown is over,
| for now at least.
| nicoburns wrote:
| The lockdown has had some effect: HGV tests and lessons
| were restricted over the lockdown period. And the DVLA
| has also gone on strike due to covid workplace safety
| concerns which has meant that those who have passed their
| tests have been delayed in getting their licenses.
| heywherelogingo wrote:
| You're saying effects are only instantaneous. No comment.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| I don't think I'm saying that. The only thing I meant was
| the UK has no lockdown right now, and hasn't for a number
| of months. I imagine lockdown had some effect, but other
| countries that went through harsher conditions aren't
| seeing the shortages the UK is, so I imagine other things
| are more to blame.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| no other country with a lockdown is having the same
| problem, and GB sort of stopped their lockdowns a while
| ago, didn't they?
|
| Workers aren't prevented from travelling because of Covid
| restrictions, but Visa restrictions do apply. Also it's
| not a good prospect to move to a country where you feel
| like you are on some kind of a migratory ejection seat...
| timellis-smith wrote:
| Europe also has a shortage
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art
| icl...
|
| This is widely reported across a number of publications
| timellis-smith wrote:
| Can't comment on the child of the post for some reason.
| Here is another source:
| https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/09/24/dont-
| blame-b...
|
| Somehow it seems on these forums that any left leaning
| publication is immediately trusted but any right leaning
| one immediately distrusted.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| It's just that the shelves in the UK are empty, and in
| the other countries they aren't. Both in the UK and in
| the rest of the EU there already was a shortage of
| professional drivers. And the companies in the UK do seem
| to blame the VISA situation as a major contributing
| factor.
| hogFeast wrote:
| The shelves in the UK aren't empty. The press in Europe
| appears to be eagerly reporting this fact. Where I am,
| the supply of fresh food has improved significantly since
| the start of Covid. I don't know of anyone who has had
| problems buying food (if anyone did, there would be panic
| buying). There has been industrial action at some places,
| and some individual producers have driver shortages. It
| is not widespread at all (and btw, I live in rural
| area...we have had shortages before due to bad weather,
| but what is happening now isn't noticeable unless you are
| familiar with the grocery supply chain...this stuff is
| just being reported because it relates to Brexit, which
| journalists care about). It is fair to say there were
| probably problems due to Brexit for the supply of some
| fresh food...but that was months ago, and I didn't notice
| any disruption even then. And btw, if drivers were going
| to leave because of Brexit, they could have left between
| 2016-2020, the UK didn't ask anyone to leave, they all
| had the right to stay and work...most left in 2020, due
| to Covid, before we left. The timeline makes no sense.
|
| The companies blame visa rules because they don't want to
| pay staff more. It is that simple (what people don't
| understand, even in the UK, these stories are all coming
| from a lobbying group of haulers...not drivers, the
| people who are having to pay staff more and are very
| angry about doing so, they just want the cheap labour
| back).
|
| One of the companies that has had persistent shortages
| for months is a bread producer making PS30m/year, they
| have 150 driver vacancies. I know someone who talked to a
| hiring manager there, they pay below market, they are
| experiencing massive attrition, when he asked what pay
| rises they were offering...2%, "the rise is satisfactory,
| workers should be happy"...meanwhile other firms are
| paying 10-30% raises, some HGV drivers are being retained
| on PS50-60k salaries (this producer pays people PS27k for
| multi-drop, starting at 2am, I believe it is mostly class
| 2 but their wages are a fantasy). Some firms in the UK
| have glutted themselves on cheap labour. They have no
| idea how to operate any other way (and btw, this bread
| producer is throwing away product every day because they
| don't have drivers, at no point have they tried to raise
| wages, they believe the low wage labour will return it
| seems).
| timellis-smith wrote:
| Indeed so, but that may still be due to more complicated
| factors. At no point have I said it isn't a factor, just
| that it's one of many.
| [deleted]
| drcongo wrote:
| Is this the most trustworthy source you could find?
| joeberon wrote:
| Yes I came from GB to Germany a month ago and I can say
| that definitely the lockdown is basically over back there
| jack_riminton wrote:
| Which is why I said mostly. Unless you'd care to exactly
| quantify the reasons?
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| It's definitely true that they lack truckers. They don't
| just grow on trees, and when a few tens of thousands leave,
| well...
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I'd be leaving, too, if I'd spent Christmas stranded on
| an airfield. https://jalopnik.com/uk-airfield-becomes-
| worlds-largest-truc...
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| There are hundreds of thousands of people in the UK with
| HGV licenses but only half of them driving.
|
| This problem has been brewing for decades as the jobs
| have been outsourced to low cost countries and the
| drivers mercilessly exploited. Now that some economies
| have improved and COVID has hit a lot of those drivers
| are either unavailable or simply unwilling to travel so
| far and so long in horrible working conditions for so
| little reward.
|
| Society needs to recalibrate the value of workers who do
| manual work. There really is no good reason why the
| average software developer should be paid more than an
| HGV driver while enjoying much better working conditions.
|
| See https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Dev
| eloper/..., https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Heav
| y_%2F_Tractor-T..., https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/
| Job=Delivery_Driver/Hou...
| hermitcrab wrote:
| Britain treats it's HGV drivers like crap. Long
| unsociable hours, low status, lack of facilities and
| relatively low pay considering how responsible the job
| is. I was horried to find that some (all?) of them don't
| even get paid for their mandatory breaks. Why would
| anyone put up with that, if they had any choice?
| mywittyname wrote:
| > There really is no good reason why the average software
| developer should be paid more than an HGV driver while
| enjoying much better working conditions.
|
| There really is. Computers will blindly obey orders 24
| hours a day, 7 days a week and can be scaled pretty much
| indefinitely. So those capable of giving computers orders
| are in a position to do a large amount of important work,
| with little effort.
|
| Truck drivers can only do a relatively small amount of
| work at a given time. Trucks have a limit to the volume
| of weight they can carry, and the speeds that they may
| travel to carry it. Thus, their work per hour is capped
| to a very modest amount. Since there's no real
| efficiencies to be gained, the only way to improve wages
| for drivers is to increase the cost of goods by a
| proportional amount.
|
| Replacing fuel delivery via truck with fuel delivery via
| pipeline would make things much more efficient, but seems
| like a waste of resources given that EVs are taking off.
|
| It's not fair, but it is reality. Any profession whose
| labor cannot be augmented by technological efficiencies
| is likely going to face the same economic realities. They
| either go up-market and serve only those who can pay
| reasonable prices for their services, they get their
| wages and status slashed in a cut-throat environment, or
| they are displaced by an inferior, machine-driven
| replacement.
| politelemon wrote:
| > They don't just grow on trees,
|
| Reminiscent of Teresa May's "magic money tree" comment
| [deleted]
| darrenf wrote:
| I've genuinely no idea why this is phrase is most
| frequently associated with May. As best I can tell she
| was just regurgitating a line from her predecessor:
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21694944
| timellis-smith wrote:
| Brexit may be a (small) part of it, but it certainly isn't
| the whole picture. Btw much of Europe faces a shortage of
| drivers as well.
|
| There are a number of factors at play including delayed
| testing because of covid, relatively low wages, and perhaps
| drivers shifting to more local deliveries e.g. supermarkets
| post covid due to changing demand. I was speaking to a taxi
| driver who said the taxi industry was being decimated by
| this
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| The supply of drivers is somewhat fungible, but it
| doesn't just multiply when demand is high and shrink when
| it is low.
|
| Those are Human beings that have to be, in essence,
| "stolen away" from another job, in the case of high
| school graduates (or whatever you call them) from another
| potential career. That's why wage isn't the magic wand
| many people believe it to be. If one industry increases
| wages (provided they can afford it), another gets the
| short stick. Unless you "steal" workers from other
| countries. As the UK did/does successfully for example
| with health workers...
| petercooper wrote:
| _Brexit may be a (small) part of it, but it certainly isn
| 't the whole picture. Btw much of Europe faces a shortage
| of drivers as well._
|
| Yes, though Europe is a larger "network." I think it's a
| bit like Metcalfe's law. Even if the EU has similar
| shortages of labor or goods, the larger number of
| citizens and companies allows things to flow to and from
| wherever they're needed more easily. The UK is now a
| separate far smaller system no longer plugged into that
| larger network.
| mpweiher wrote:
| The rest of Europe has mostly projected driver shortages,
| and no acute shortages of drivers, let alone goods.
|
| So yes, while there is a wider issue, the wider issue is
| not the current problem or the high-order bit.
|
| Note also that UGKOV plans to address the driver shortage
| by offering to ease restrictions on non UK-based (i.e.
| EU) drivers.
|
| So yes, this is totally due to Brexit.
| handelaar wrote:
| ...the same non-UK-based drivers that it proposes to kick
| out of the country again on December 24th. And the same
| drivers that _last year_ on December 24th it corralled
| onto a disused airport runway behind fences and locked
| the doors so they couldn 't go anywhere while being
| kicked out of the country.
|
| Hard to imagine why they might not be jumping at the
| chance to spend another Xmas with no access to sanitation
| or even _food_ in a place that is run by people who abuse
| them publicly every day
| dazc wrote:
| Currently tanker drivers need extra certification but are
| still treated badly by employers. There is currently high
| demand for HGV drivers generally with big incentives to move
| employers. Therefore, some fuel tanker drivers have left to
| work elsewhere and can not be so easily replaced.
|
| Lots of truck drivers have left the industry after suffering
| years of poor pay and conditions. The licencing scheme is not
| so simple that they can return on a whim either.
| ed_elliott_asc wrote:
| The government really mis managed this - they keep saying there
| is no shortage yet all the stations have run out - they can't
| spin this and ignore it until the next disaster distracts from
| this disaster.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| I'm sorry but when you have selfish (and idiotic) people like
| this:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kkRX2p9wH4
|
| ..how is the government supposed to manage this? The messages
| have been "just buy fuel normally" - but people are ignoring
| it. It's the same problem as happened with toilet paper,
| people will start hording whatever is now limited.
| josephcsible wrote:
| > Unlike the toilet paper panic buying there is limited
| capacity people can buy, so I would expect this to naturally
| end short term when people don't have capacity to buy any more.
|
| Didn't the Colonial Pipeline attack have people filling up
| plastic bags with gas?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Have you ever tried doing that? It works for about 5 minutes
| until the bag disolves.
| sgt101 wrote:
| errm, no - I am concerned to note that you obviously have.
| Smaug123 wrote:
| For what it's worth, I've never done it but I also
| reacted "er, surely the bag's going to dissolve".
| nmeofthestate wrote:
| I think the photo you reference that was going round at the
| time was an old one from Brazil or Mexico or somewhere.
| sgt101 wrote:
| the best one I heard of was the people using domestic wheel
| bins as attempted fuel depots.
|
| Cue fire brigade level intervention!
| oxfordmale wrote:
| There is pictures in the Daily Mail of people emptying water
| bottles and filling them with petrol.
| jhugo wrote:
| This is very common throughout Southeast Asia as short-to-
| medium-term fuel storage, I imagine elsewhere too.
| captaincaveman wrote:
| I did this once in Malaysia as the piece of crap car I
| rented ran out of fuel 5 minutes after leaving depot.
| Walked to petrol station, tried to fill up Coke bottle
| with petrol, which created a wonderful petrol
| fountain/volcano all over me .. then a nice long walk
| back to the car in mid day sun ... was still a great trip
| :P
| humps wrote:
| As Brian Madderson, chairman of the Petrol Retailers
| Association, explained on BBC Breakfast this morning. This
| happened because a BP document was leaked to the media, which
| unsurprisingly got them excited about a possible shortage and
| led to the panic buying. Madderson also said the industry is
| used to dealing with about 2 million liters of fuel being
| required a week, but that's with typical weekly fill-ups. He
| suggested that's effectively doubled now as people fill their
| tanks to the brim, which you can't keep up with under any
| circumstances. So there's no shortage in the industry, only a
| shortage created by consumers changing their behaviour
| overnight.
| enkid wrote:
| But over the long term, filling to the brim will not change
| the overall demand, it just changed the storage location.
| Once the system catches up to that fact, there shouldn't be a
| shortage anymore.
| humps wrote:
| yes, it should be possible to catch up, although it will
| happen more slowly depending on how bad the driver shortage
| has become within the fuel industry.
| listless wrote:
| So the trucker shortage is a false conclusion? Cause this
| article states that's the definitive cause. It reads to me
| like an axe to grind with Brexit and trying to tie this
| crisis to that political football.
| nicoburns wrote:
| The trucker shortage has so far caused a minor shortage,
| but has the potential to cause worse shortages over time
| unless the trucker shortage is dealt with. The panic buying
| is making that all much worse and speeding up the timeline.
| humps wrote:
| There's a general shortage of HGV drivers across Europe at
| the moment. The shortage didn't cause fuel pumps to run
| dry, though. It was the result of panic caused by the media
| after they got their hands on a document, with the initial
| news being that BP had closed 5 petrol stations. It
| escalated very quickly from there due to relentless media
| coverage. You could certainly argue the shortage of drivers
| made it much more difficult to cope with the panic once it
| was in full flow.
| hogFeast wrote:
| In terms of the trucker shortage: the govt said today that
| the fuel driver shortage is small (150-300, tanker drivers
| make more than HGV drivers so probably true). BP said they
| were having no problems hiring but experiencing high levels
| of attrition (likely due to competitors offering pay
| increases)
|
| BP met with the govt on Thursday, they said that supply
| levels were roughly at the level they had been since the
| start of the summer, low but manageable. Allegedly, they
| said they were only closing 10 or their 1,200 locations.
| They also said stock was low below normal levels.
|
| Someone leaked this information to the media for the
| Thursday night news (it is very unlikely that it was anyone
| but the RHA). The person who did this left out several
| important details, in particular the fact that BP planned
| to close almost no locations. BP briefed the media later
| they were closing 20 (it was assumed initially that they
| were behind the leaks as the initial report was that the
| meeting was lobbying to lift visa rules, it seems not to
| have been the case). Other retailers briefed they had no
| issues with stock at all. Too late.
|
| And the reason why people suspect the RHA is because they
| have been lobbying aggressively for most of this year to
| change visa rules. Visa rules were changed for them a few
| hours after this all kicked off (they also did poultry
| workers, this group have been working closely with RHA on
| lobbying)...this alone should suggest who is responsible.
|
| RHA are, however, not backing down. This is not surprising
| as they are traditionally one of the most combative
| lobbying groups (the BMA is the other, SMMT has quietened
| down, NFU is combative but prefers to operate in the
| shadows when they are in govt). But, given that their
| lobbying has been successful, it is notable that they are
| continuing to push hard for further concessions (their line
| has modified ever so slightly though, they are talking
| about improving conditions...although they still sound
| quite angry that some HGV drivers are being offered PS50k
| packages).
|
| Unfortunately, lobbyists have worked out they have the
| media and the public in the palm of their hands. The
| outrage cycle in the UK has become rapid. After May folded
| to Nissan/SMMT (another lobbying group), lobbyists have
| realised there is a lot of money in briefing aggressively
| against the govt with a very pliant media (the RHA has been
| most aggressive by far, and has aligned itself with the big
| food lobbyists too). Brexit is inevitably part of this: 95%
| of journalists voted Remain, and there is a subset of the
| population who read a lot of news and talk about nothing
| but Brexit (if you are from the US, it is basically: what
| Trump did to Dems, what Obama did to Reps...it is non-
| stop).
|
| EDIT: I made an error. The actual date of the govt meeting
| is not clear. Shapps may have said it was ten days ago, I
| am sure I read somewhere else it was on Thursday...I don't
| know. If it was ten days ago, that is obviously...unusual
| because the leak, most likely, wasn't accidental but
| premeditated. BP have completely washed their hands of it
| and claimed they weren't operating in the media on Friday
| morning...I don't quite believe that.
| humps wrote:
| thank you for the additional information
| makomk wrote:
| The fuel supply problems actually caused by the shortage of
| truckers were such a minor issue that I doubt even the
| people affected by it would've noticed - a handful of
| petrol stations ran out in the entire country, and there's
| always the odd one that has some problem or another anyway.
| I think they'd been going on for a while too with nothing
| much changing. The widespread shortages that actually
| impact people are all due to the panic buying.
| tupac_speedrap wrote:
| The lorry drivers that drive fuel lorries have different
| certification than general HGV drivers and there has never
| been a shortage of these lorry drivers.
| Pick-A-Hill2019 wrote:
| There is also a shortage of tanker delivery drivers which
| means that it is impossible to increase the number of
| deliveries which leads to outages which are then amplified
| via social media and news outlets (anything that gets
| clicks/engagements wins the race for Top Post/Ad
| Views/Headlines).
|
| The biggest problem imo is that any time just about any
| government official in any country in any continent anywhere
| on the planet says _trust us there is no need to panic_
| people cast their minds back to the previous times they have
| heard that and (rather naturally) go 'Yeah, right!' and so
| think to themselves 'better safe than sorry'.
|
| The UK gov has done a U-Turn and said that they will grant
| 5000 temporary work visas to EU HGV drivers .... that expire
| on Christmas Eve. Quelle surprise the take up rate has been
| rather low.
| kristjansson wrote:
| > which you can't keep up with under any circumstances
|
| What? This is a stocks and flows problem. If everyone filled
| up to the brim every time, but followed the same pattern of
| use otherwise, the weekly fuel consumed is exactly the same
| (modulo some tiny loss of efficiency due to cars being
| marginally heavier).
|
| Of course a nation of half-full cars suddenly filling them to
| the brim demands much more fuel during the (short) period of
| time over which they make that transition, but that shouldn't
| create an expectation of drastically increased future
| _consumption_ of fuel.
| kbenson wrote:
| > the weekly fuel consumed is exactly the same
|
| That assumes people fill up every week. Not everyone does,
| it really depends on the amount of driving they do and size
| of their tank.
|
| > Of course a nation of half-full cars suddenly filling
| them to the brim demands much more fuel during the (short)
| period of time over which they make that transition, but
| that shouldn't create an expectation of drastically
| increased future _consumption_ of fuel.
|
| Isn't that what's being stated? That there's no actual
| industry shortage, just a short term shortage and demand
| spiked unexpectedly for a day or two but to such a degree
| that the normal per-station reserves and delivery cycle was
| unable to cope? The expected result would be that the
| following days or even weeks (to a lesser degree) would see
| reduced demand, since it's less an increase or decrease in
| demand overall but really just a shift of some future
| demand to the present.
| kristjansson wrote:
| s/weekly/per unit time/g
|
| But to the broader point, perhaps I misread. I fixated on
| the 'cannot be kept up with' bit which I read as implying
| a change in expected future consumption, but I see could
| also be read as a referring specifically to the demand
| shock.
| chrononaut wrote:
| > ..as I think most people are just filling up to the top
| instead of half way..
|
| Perhaps I am missing something here, but are you referring to
| vehicles in this context? Is it not common to always fill your
| tank to the top?
| lelanthran wrote:
| > Perhaps I am missing something here, but are you referring
| to vehicles in this context? Is it not common to always fill
| your tank to the top?
|
| Depends. When I am in a hurry I buy fuel for an exact amount
| of cash, so that I can hand over cash and move on.
|
| When I am not, I fill up to the first click[1], and then wait
| for the attendant to amble on over with a payment terminal so
| I can use my card.
|
| If I was always paying cash, I would never fill up because I
| don't really want to hang about while they make change for
| whatever money I give them. [1] I had a 1986 BMW 525e that,
| if you filled up to the very top, will leak out excess fuel
| through an overfill pipe when on a slight (or not so slight)
| incline. Filling up to the top wasted that fuel.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I've seen some people keep the tank only partially full
| because it improves performance (the car will be more
| efficient if it is lighter and might eg handle better too,
| especially if it is a small car) though I don't really buy
| that argument.
|
| But if you supposed that everyone drove normally until their
| tank was 1/8 full then refuelled to the top, the average tank
| would be 7/16 full so if lots of people refuel all at once
| that is 9/16 times a lot of fuel tanks.
| spuz wrote:
| > But if you supposed that everyone drove normally until
| their tank was 1/8 full then refuelled to the top, the
| average tank would be 7/16 full so if lots of people refuel
| all at once that is 9/16 times a lot of fuel tanks.
|
| Sorry, extremely minor nit-pick but I think the fractions
| go the other way. The average tank should be 9/16 full
| leading to 7/16 of a tank extra per person.
| WaltPurvis wrote:
| That argument seems ridiculous. Gasoline weighs 6.3 pounds
| per gallon and most cars have 15-20 gallon tanks, so if you
| keep your tank around half-full your car will be lighter by
| maybe 50 or 60 pounds. Any performance improvement from
| that would be imperceptibly small.
| csomar wrote:
| Most people fill in small increments usually relating to
| their pay point. This is especially so for the UK where
| weekly pay is popular. I suspect this is a worldwide thing.
| whatever1 wrote:
| Tell me you are an American without telling me you are an
| American.
|
| Jokes apart, in Europe the gasoline is so expensive that you
| need ~80EUR to fill up a small car. For an SUV can be close
| to 100EUR.
|
| So we just fill up to just what is absolutely necessary and
| then we live in anxiety :)
| fsslrisrchr wrote:
| I lived in Europe. Add to that a general lack of cash
| liquidity of the middle class. I.e. when you're poor you're
| not sure you might not need those extra euro 60 next week
| for an unforeseen emergency.
|
| When we lived in Europe in the 90s, my mother would never
| fill up past a quarter tank.
| whatever1 wrote:
| The european gas pumps even have prespecified fill
| volumes typically 5,10,20,50EUR. So when you select the
| 20EUR it will dispense 20EUR worth of gasoline.
|
| Many times youth is also splitting gasoline costs for a
| night out, so everyone will chip in 2-3EUR to pour enough
| gasoline.
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| Anecdata on this: yesterday I filled up an almost empty 55
| Lt tank for EUR90. The actual petrol cost EUR35, the
| remaining EUR55 was taxes.
| petercooper wrote:
| I always fill up myself because I hate filling up any more
| than I have to, but when it costs the equivalent of $70 to
| fill even a tiny car or $140 for a large car, no, it's pretty
| common to just buy "what you need" for the next few days or
| whatever.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| Still seems odd to me. Whether it's $70 a week or $140
| every two weeks the total is the same. Only difference is
| how many stops you have to make, and maybe a 1% difference
| to the average weight of the vehicle.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| It is odd to you because you have never had to live
| paycheck to paycheck. Many people are barely getting to
| the next pay day so that extra $70 the first week means
| less food that week.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| True, if you have literally $0 cash on hand then it could
| make sense. If you ever get your hands on $70 though that
| seems like a worthwhile investment to spend ~50% less
| time at the gas station for the remainder of your life.
| Probably one of the more cost efficient quality-of-life
| purchases you could make in my opinion, which is why I
| find it odd that it's not more common (apparently).
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| Of course it is never quite that simple. When people are
| cash strapped and under stress, pure unemotional logic
| may not drive all decisions. Making a $140 purchase when
| you know you can get by in the short term with a smaller
| purchase just doesn't add up to a person in that
| situation.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| But "time at gas station" is only like 3 mins per visit
| though. Yes it's not where you want to be but in absolute
| time terms it isn't much, especially if a gas station is
| on your typical travel route
| rebuilder wrote:
| If you've spent your money on gas, you can no longer
| choose to use it on surprise expenses and forgo driving.
| Money is more liquid than gas, it turns out.
| danuker wrote:
| I'd rather keep my money in fuel than cash, in the off
| chance hyperinflation strikes, triggering a bank holiday,
| without me having any physical cash.
|
| But so far this has happened 0 times since I have a car.
| nicoburns wrote:
| That's great if you have the money to spare, but not
| everyone does.
| danuker wrote:
| If you don't have money for fuel, I warmly recommend
| learning about hypermiling.
|
| The main ideas are not to step on the gas pedal more than
| say, 30%, and use the smallest car for the job.
| fignews wrote:
| Don't forget coasting. On a modern fuel-injected car
| there is no fuel injected into the cylinder while
| coasting.
| adventured wrote:
| If you have money to spare, you're also not going to be
| able to keep a meaningful share of it contained in
| filled-up household vehicles, even if you own several of
| them (such that it'll actually function as a sum large
| enough to offset hyperinflation in any way that matters).
| throw8383833jj wrote:
| But, don't forget that evaporation will be greater by
| maintaining a full tanks.
|
| Besides, you don't want your fuel aging more than 6 or 12
| months. So, if you drive less than 40 miles per month (as
| in a pandemic), it can make sense to just fill up 1/2 way
| or 3/4.
| owenversteeg wrote:
| Keeping extra gas in the tank (aka filling up all the way) is
| like keeping a savings account - many people can't afford it.
| Depending on the country, the tank size and the price of gas,
| you can easily be looking at $100 for a tank vs. just keeping
| a bit in there to get around.
| lpapez wrote:
| Depends a lot on the social status I think. Growing up in a
| poor household, we never worried about gas prices. When the
| salary came, we would buy 200HRK worth of petrol and use the
| car as long as it had petrol. After that, you walk. It was
| never a full tank and these days its not even half a tank.
| stinkytaco wrote:
| I think about myself as a pretty standard middle class
| person who's obviously empathetic to those who have less.
| But this proves how easy it is to be out of touch an not
| even realize it. I really had no idea. I just assumed when
| you filled, you filled all the way.
| mattowen_uk wrote:
| Unless your petrol station is on one of your regular
| routes, it's false economy not to fill up completely when
| you have an empty tank, otherwise you are incurring an
| extra trip to the petrol station.
|
| Of course if you can't afford a full tank, and are living
| hand to mouth each month/week, then you are in the
| poverty trap where everything is a percentage more
| expensive for you overall.
| lpapez wrote:
| Well-off people are usually quick to criticize the
| decisions of "the poor", but they rarely understand the
| context. For example, why do poor people stand in line
| for a new iPhone just to sell it immediately upon exiting
| the store? Its often because they can get it on a
| telecom-contract, sell it unopened immediately for less
| than it usually costs to someone else and pay it off
| across two years. It effectively serves as a quick cash
| loan with a moderate interest fee in case you can't get
| one from a bank and are smart enough not to contact the
| mob. Every time the iPhone gets more expensive, people
| with a dire need for cash rejoice...
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I think for some folks living check to check, it's pretty
| common to not have enough money for a full fill. In the end
| it's the same amount of gas, so this seems like just another
| one of the myriad ways poor people end up spending more
| resources than wealthier people because they can't invest a
| bit more now for better returns later.
| xeromal wrote:
| It's not common for people who's budget doesn't allow for a
| full tank. My family usually just put in a certain amount.
| 10-20$. When I visit home, I make sure to fill up their tanks
| in secret and they look at me like I'm insane. "Who fills up
| a tank?!"
| tialaramex wrote:
| No. It's a waste of money. Britain is a small country, you're
| not going to run out of fuel (ordinarily) on a trip and so it
| makes sense to keep the money in your pocket instead of
| turning it into fuel that's sat there doing nothing useful.
|
| Also, it's very common to buy round amounts of value e.g.
| PS30 of petrol, periodically, rather than just fill it up for
| however much that costs, for some people this makes it easier
| to think about from a budget point of view.
| sgt101 wrote:
| Also if you fill it up you have to tow it around with you;
| an extra 40kgs of weight in the car which costs a bit.
|
| The fill it up to the brim meme seems to come from
| emergency preparedness folks like the police and the army
| where no vehicle goes to the parking space overnight
| without being 100% as ready as it can be for tomorrow.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| This blew my mind as an American kid visiting England a
| couple decades ago. I was only ever aware of putting in a
| credit card and filling up a gas tank all the way, and my
| uncle took out a 5 or 10 quid note to go pay before
| filing petrol and he said why should I pay to haul around
| extra fuel if I pass by the petrol station everyday and I
| only use half a tank every 2 weeks.
| captaincaveman wrote:
| Fuel is/was a lot more expensive in UK.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Yes, that is also a factor I forgot to mention.
| csomar wrote:
| Somebody should do the math of pulling out to the gas
| station vs. driving with a full tank.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| With US engine sizes, fuel efficiency, and number of
| miles driven, I would guess it makes no difference for
| most people.
|
| Much fewer proportion of people are driving those peugots
| or other tiny cars where the weight of fuel would be
| material relative to the time it would take to fill up
| fuel more often.
|
| Another British thing that amazed me was their auto
| insurance prices were based on engine size, and they were
| fretting about the insurance cost between 2L and 3L cars,
| and all the vehicles we had in America were 4L+.
| azalemeth wrote:
| No normal person needs a 4l car. You just don't. Heck, 3l
| is huge and not required with modern engine sizes;
| between 1 and 2l is plenty for the vast majority of
| people who are not farmers routinely getting stuck in mud
| whilst towing heavy equipment.
|
| In 2019, the average new petrol ("gas") car in the UK
| requires 5.7 l of fuel per 100 km (49.2 mpg) [1].
|
| The corresponding figure for the US is ~9.44 l/100km
| (24.9 mpg [2,3]).
|
| We really, really need to decarbonise our economy
| worldwide and in many ways this fuel scare may be the
| catalyst required, with UK autotrader saying it was
| driving people to e-car retailers [4].
|
| [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-
| sets/energy-a...
|
| [2] https://www.iea.org/reports/fuel-consumption-of-cars-
| and-van...
|
| [3] https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-
| automotive-...
|
| [4]
| https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2021/sep/27/uk-
| pet...
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I know. My neighbor just upgraded from a mini SUV to a
| 5.7L pickup truck to commute to his office job.
|
| The spoils of a government that does not have a high
| fossil fuel tax.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| 4L!? Are you towing an aeroplane?
|
| My most recent car was 1.1L and was fine for anything I
| used it for...
|
| I do agree that basing insurance on engine capacity is
| odd though. Why not power to weight ratio or something?
| mywittyname wrote:
| >an extra 40kgs of weight in the car which costs a bit.
|
| Do European cars have gigantic fuel tanks?
|
| 40kgs is 40 / 0.71kg/L = 56.3L ~= 14.9 gallons.
|
| 14.9 gallons is as much, or more than any car I own
| carries. And I've never put more than 13 gallons into any
| vehicle ever during a single fill up.
|
| To have that kind of "spare" capacity beyond what would
| be necessary for my daily commute, I'd need to be driving
| a large SUV or pickup truck.
|
| I looked up a 3 Series BMW, and they have 40L or 57L
| tanks in the new models. Down from 60 or so 10 years ago.
|
| I feel like 20kgs is a more accurate number. And that's
| really the difference between a small woman and a medium
| sized man driving the same vehicle.
| SenHeng wrote:
| I have a BMW 1 Series and always fill to the brim,
| highest I've got is 48L so I expect full to be 50L.
| jedberg wrote:
| Unless you value your time at 0, the amount of money you'll
| save by not carrying around the extra weight is less than
| the value of the time you'll spend filling up twice.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Yes, but time is not everyone's most precious asset.
| ZetaZero wrote:
| I haven't rounded to the nearest dollar in over 10 years,
| using credit cards. The only time I cared about rounding
| was when I paid in cash.
|
| I always fill to the brim, as I value my time more than the
| incremental value that half a tank of gas will do for me.
| Obviously it's not the same for everyone.
| joeberon wrote:
| > when people don't have capacity to buy any more.
|
| I'm confused, can't they just fill up jerry cans, or if garages
| aren't allowing this, just siphon the fuel out of the car at
| home?
| rspeele wrote:
| Sure, but anecdotally, most people don't have gas cans of
| significant capacity and many don't have any cans at all.
|
| I live in the American south and we had a gas shortage like
| this in the spring due to a ransomware attack. There were
| pictures on social media of people trying to fill up all
| sorts of nonstandard containers ranging from buckets to
| grocery bags (yep). But I think the people who would buy gas
| cans for this, or try such silly alternative storage methods,
| are a minority and most won't expend the effort to pursue
| additional storage capacity beyond their vehicle's tank.
| caeril wrote:
| Most people don't even possess jerry cans, let alone keep
| them filled and stabilized. Allocating time and resources to
| common-sense supply chain shock preparedness gets in the way
| of important things like football, porn, and social media.
|
| Daddy Government will always provide, of course.
| teeray wrote:
| You're technically limited to storing a certain quantity of
| fuel on your property without a license. Whether a regulator
| could detect this is another question.
| aaronmdjones wrote:
| It's 30 litres, for reference.
| BuildTheRobots wrote:
| Just to clarify: Petrol and Kerosene (parafin) are
| limited to 10L in a plastic jerry-can, 20L in a metal can
| and you're limited to 2 containers or 30L maximum. Diesel
| is exempt.
|
| I can't remember if this applies to limits you can
| transport in a vehicle or if it applies to storage at a
| home/work location as well.
| rhino369 wrote:
| Jerrycans are about 5 gallons and people tend to have only
| 1-3 of them. The nationwide capacity to store gas (in
| reasonable contentions) is probably pretty low compared to
| average sales.
| zabzonk wrote:
| > people tend to have only 1-3 of them
|
| Well, zero more likely.
| bb123 wrote:
| Most modern cars have anti-siphon traps preventing this.
| 015a wrote:
| This sounds like the classic establishment divert-and-divide
| playbook for managing public outrage. Come up with some
| reasonable story which explains the problem by redirecting
| outrage at average people. Make sure we stay mad at each other.
|
| Lately far too many of these playbooks have been focused on
| suppressing the systemic mistreatment of the working class.
| Fuel isn't running low because we can't find enough truck
| drivers due to systemic underpayment and overwork; its low
| because people are panic buying. Schools cant find enough
| teachers not because of underpayment and overwork; its because
| of right-wing pushback against mask mandates, people are scared
| to return to the classroom. Hospital ICUs aren't overflowing
| because of a critical care staff shortage due to systemic
| underpayment and overwork; its because of the unvaccinated.
|
| The unfortunate reality is, these public relations control
| strategies work because there is some element of truth to Their
| explanation. Rarely do problems boil down to one solution; and
| if They can keep focus on the one, small element of the problem
| that encourages Us to stay mad at each-other, They don't have
| to worry about solving the systemic issues, built-up over
| decades, which anyone with half a brain could have seen coming.
| HPsquared wrote:
| "Nothing to see here, please disperse"
| jack_riminton wrote:
| Refusal to send the army in reeks of BoJo not making a
| decision until the crisis couldn't get any worse and so he's
| forced to
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