[HN Gopher] I Invented Baileys (2017)
___________________________________________________________________
I Invented Baileys (2017)
Author : one-possibility
Score : 145 points
Date : 2021-09-26 17:14 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.irishtimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.irishtimes.com)
| weitzj wrote:
| Pro tip: Baileys instead of milk for a Kellog's corn flakes
| breakfast :)
| euroderf wrote:
| Bailey's over Froot Loops totally works. Tried & verified.
| laumars wrote:
| I know you're joking but I've literally tried that before and
| wouldn't recommend it.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| >>> Perrier hadn't become fashionable then, so people were still
| content to do real drinking at lunch time.
|
| I am just old enough to have caught the tail end of this world
| (Ahhh, Harlow, thy beauteous roundabouts call out to me ...)
|
| My dad assured me liver damage was the only way to get a job in
| the 60s.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| It wasn't that long ago teachers in France could buy a pticher
| of wine with their lunch at the school cafeteria until ~2000.
| For a while after they could bring their own bottle. That
| stopped around 2005.
| w0mbat wrote:
| I was hoping he would describe the work needed to make it shelf--
| stable. After all, anyone can mix cream, sugar, whisky and
| chocolate powder but that concoction will soon turn sour, clot,
| separate, etc. Also I seem to remember hearing an earlier version
| of this origin story where a can of condensed milk was used in
| the first experiment instead of cream.
|
| Is the solution as simple as basing it on ultra pasteurized cream
| further preserved by the alcohol and sugar, all bonded forever by
| some mechanical homogenization process?
| nimbius wrote:
| the agent that prevents its separation is most likely soy
| lecithin.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Once you go over 16% or so alcohol, no cell will grow in it.
| That's why alcohol above that is distilled: the alcohol starts
| inactivating the yeast. Just make sure it's pasteurized to
| begin with (or good source control) and it'll stay clean.
|
| Something acts like the surfactant to keep it from separating.
| Probably not mustard like in a salad dressing :).
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| I've definitely seen (or felt) a separated bottle of Bailey's
| before. My uncle had one that sat in his liquor cabinet for
| over a year. When I tried to pour it, the liquid that came
| out was a thin, disgusting color, and the bottle itself felt
| like a carton of milk that had turned to cottage cheese (e.g.
| there was definitely a _solid mass_ in the center of it,
| floating inside the thinner liquid).
| cromka wrote:
| Someone drunk from the bottle and contaminated it? ;)
| bayindirh wrote:
| > Something acts like the surfactant to keep it from
| separating.
|
| Gum arabic or Xantham gum?
| krisrm wrote:
| Putting on my pedantic home brewer cap: The 16% number seems
| a bit low. I believe there are champagne yeasts that will
| ferment up to 18%, and specialized "turbo" yeasts designed
| for fermenting high-abv washes for distilling will go up to
| 20%.
| hillsideduck wrote:
| I can absolutely agree on the turbo yeast part. I have
| fermented some apples with turbo yeast and they were able
| to bring it up to about 21% (but with added sugar).
| awesomeusername wrote:
| I just tested a turbo yeast sugar wash I have and it's
| sitting at exactly 21%
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Dare I ask why you happen to have turbo yeast sugar wash
| lying around?
| vanderZwan wrote:
| How "recent" are the developments of those turbo yeasts
| though? I wouldn't be surprised we figured out how to
| create those only in the last century using modern
| scientific insights.
| soperj wrote:
| What does that matter when they're replying to "Once you
| go over 16% or so alcohol, no cell will grow in it.
| That's why alcohol above that is distilled"?
| moehm wrote:
| It was popular to study fermentation, because nobody knew
| how it worked. Anton van Leeuwenhoek (the "inventor" of
| the microscope [0] around 1670) was the first person who
| saw yeast cells, but nobody knew what it was. In 1880s
| people realized what yeast is and that it was behind
| fermentation. Around 1900 breweries began using (their)
| specific yeast string. Yeast was the first eukaryote
| which genome was completly sequenced, in 1996. So, yes,
| research in yeast is relativly modern.
|
| If you are interested in this topic, I can recommend the
| book "Proof: The Science of Booze" [1] which has a
| chapter on yeast and a following one on fermenation.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonie_van_Leeuwenhoek
|
| [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18222694-proof
| s_dev wrote:
| Probably some standard emulsifier is surely added. That for me
| would be the key bit: Wikipedia suggests "emulsifier containing
| refined vegetable oil".
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Veg oil seems like a bad call for shelf-stability. Sure you
| can boil off any dissolved O2 and N2 sparge the bottle before
| sealing it, but that only helps you until you open the
| bottle.
| s_dev wrote:
| It does but as pointed out above -- once above a certain %
| of alcohol as long as it's emulsified the alcohol will kill
| any bad bacteria.
| amluto wrote:
| Veggie oil will go rancid without any help from bacteria.
|
| That being said, Bailey's isn't _that_ shelf stable and
| will likely turn into undrinkable too faster than the
| average veggie oil will go rancid. And veggie oil can be
| stabilized to some extent by adding vitamin E.
| noelrock wrote:
| This is wonderful how this has ended up on the front page of
| Hacker News. It's one of my favourite pieces I've read in the
| last few years - I bought the book arising from it - I don't even
| like Bailey's! It's just a very neat story of product
| development, branding, etc.
| [deleted]
| tromp wrote:
| Does anyone find the large price premium that Baileys commands
| over its many imitations worth it?
|
| In the U.S. I used to regularly buy one called Molly's and that
| name has stuck with me since. I still write Molly's on my
| shopping list here in Europe.
| busterarm wrote:
| Premium? Stuff is cheap here in the northeastern US.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| Something _can_ be fairly cheap in price yet still be a
| premium version of it. It happens with toilet paper - but if
| you want another liquor example, liqueurs are often cheap yet
| there are definitely premium versions out there (but still
| cost fairly little).
| GlennS wrote:
| As a student I used to drink "Irish Nights" at about 1/5th of
| the price. Couldn't really tell the difference from real
| Baileys.
|
| My partner tells me she used to drink "Delayleys" (spelling
| lost to time), but would not buy it again today.
| phpnode wrote:
| Maybe you mean Dooleys. It's toffee rather than coffee and is
| typically sold at extremely low end bars and nightclubs in
| the UK, or at least it was 15 years ago
| gandalfian wrote:
| I find nobody buys it at full price which makes it only
| slightly premium. It's designed to be discounted. Always on
| offer somewhere. Most people just buy a half price bottle at
| Christmas and that must be a sizable chunk of the market.
| noiwillnot wrote:
| No.
|
| Also there are similar drinks in other places the world (often
| much older than Baileys), maybe not with whiskey but brandy or
| other liquors.
| lmm wrote:
| The Aldi equivalent never tasted quite the same. Maybe it'd be
| fine if you were used to it, but I'd like Baileys to taste the
| same as it does in a bar.
| dsr_ wrote:
| I buy Irish whiskey at CostCo and if I want something like
| Baileys, I can make it myself in a shaker.
|
| Honestly, chocolate-Irish ice cream is very good, but so is
| chocolate-Bourbon or chocolate-rum.
| nailer wrote:
| > On December 3rd, 2007, Diageo announced the sale of the
| billionth bottle of Baileys since it was first introduced in
| 1973. That's a thousand million bottles. And they will have sold
| at least a further 250 million bottles in the decade since then
| bringing the total up to something in the area of 1,250,000,000.
|
| Slightly off topic but this writer seems to have a really low
| expectation of his readers.
| czard0mn wrote:
| Have you ever drank Bailey's from an old boot? It's smooth and
| creamy.
| everyone wrote:
| I'm old greg!!!
| dredmorbius wrote:
| The mass-market alcohol industry is almost entirely based on
| branding and bulk ingredents. (A considerable fraction of the so-
| called top-shelf market is as well.)
|
| I'd had some exposure to that through a former life, though this
| classic comment of Animats drilled home just how sordid the whole
| thing is, through Frank-Lin distillers, who buy bulk grain
| alcohol by the tankerful, delivered to their own private railroad
| siding, and service over 3,500 accounts.[1]
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9059821
|
| Baily's Irish Cream has virtually all of the standard addictive
| food / consumption elements: booze, sugar, fat, and chocolate. If
| they could work out how to add salt, heroin, and cocaine, they'd
| have the full package.
|
| Some years back I looked into just when various well-known
| alcoholic beveridges or other branded concepts came into being.
| Virtualy all are from _after_ the beginning of the broadcast-
| based mass-advertising era, with the exception of Captain Morgan
| 's Rum (which dates from US Prohibition).
|
| You can trace this with startling clarity through Google's Ngram
| viewer. Smirnoff Vodka in particular stands out, it appeared out
| of nowhere in 1950:
|
| https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Smirnoff+Vodka...
|
| Yes, the _label_ dates to the 19th century. And yes, it had
| circulation in Russia earlier. But as following the Google Books
| links will show, a series of submarines (many in Life Magazine)
| appeared in print in 1950 to popularise the brand.
|
| I'd researched a number of other brands at some point (probably
| in a Reddit comment, not readily searchable), but you can do this
| yourself. There's a notable influx of new brands in the 1960s,
| '70s, '80s, and aughts. And many apparently "venerable" brands
| are far younger (at least in general market presence) than their
| marketing would have you believe.
|
| The whole notion of the "Irish pub" is mostly a post-1980s
| marketing gimmick (inspired strongly by the US TV series "Cheers"
| AFAIU).
|
| Mostly, though, you're just paying for the label.
|
| ________________________________
|
| Notes:
|
| 1. I've written my own brief here:
| https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/bztu6ot3xumpeiiiygdzaa Further
| background at http://www.frank-lin.com/
| https://www.webcitation.org/5jjmHRr9C
| http://web.archive.org/web/20061018134019/http://www.packagi...
| https://www.dailyrepublic.com/all-dr-news/solano-news/top-st...
| and
| http://web.archive.org/web/20150907040248/http://sourmashed....
| dustintrex wrote:
| There's a good Atlas Obscura story on how Smirnoff had to not
| just invent the brand, but introduce America to vodka:
|
| https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-america-fell-in-lo...
| Intermernet wrote:
| New cocktail: "The Full Package": Take Baileys. Muddle with
| Salt & Heroin. Serve over Cocaine, Mint to taste.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| What. Have. I. Done?!!!
| anonymousDan wrote:
| Uhm, what about Guinness? The guinness brewery has been around
| a lot longer than 1950. Also, are you claiming there was no
| such thing as an Irish pub before 1980? Again, uhm, no.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| I draw your attention to the word "almost" in my comment, and
| its neighbour "entirely", which it modifies.
|
| The brewery may date to the 1850s. As a widely-known name,
| popularity trailed the records book published by the same
| concern, largely beginning in the 1960s:
|
| https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Guiness+%2A&ye.
| ..
| leoc wrote:
| The popularity of the Book of Records probably doesn't have
| much relation to sales or awareness of the Guinness drinks.
| Guinness Extra considerably predates the 1850s: Guinness
| has been a big manufacturing operation and a big brand for
| a long time. (However Guinness Draught, being a keg beer,
| is naturally from the 1950s, though it's the successor of
| Guinness' cask beer.) Several other European beer brands
| have histories going back to at least the late C19:
| Heineken, Carlsberg, Paulaner, ... Several of the famous
| Italian amaros like Fernet-Branca and Campari are solidly
| second half of C19; so is Angostura. Chartreuse is
| considerably older. Several Scottish whisky distilleries
| have quite long histories of continuous production, though
| of course the current international fame of Scottish single
| malts is relatively recent. Bacardi was distributed outside
| Cuba since at least the 1930s.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| That isn't the argument I'm making. I'm simply showing
| the prevalence of the ngrams "Guiness" (capialised) and
| "Guiness *" (same, followed by any other word).
|
| "Guiness Book" clearly trends in print before any
| reference to a beverage, in the US-English corpus.
|
| If you have a complaint, it's with Google Books and its
| ngram viewer.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Of course there were pubs in Ireland, but if you go to an
| "Irish pub" in the States, that experience is largely a
| recent invention.
|
| "Pub in a Box": https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/04/12
| /523653040/epis...
| rsynnott wrote:
| I assume they're referring to the theme-park-ish "Irish pubs"
| in the US, rather than pubs in Ireland.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| The US Irish pubs often go out of their way to seem old-
| world, e.g. sawdust on the floor, not something I see a lot
| in Ireland..
| dilap wrote:
| That's pretty crazy. So I wonder, do Frank-Lin put any flavors
| in their vodkas? Or is it just water + alcohol, and any
| perceived differences in flavor are down to the labels?
|
| Edit: Nevermind, just read the Skyy link. Indeed, they add
| flavoring to the vodka. Huh!
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Amazing. One of their brands' websites, Black Saddle Whisky,
| even says "handcrafted here in the US by Master Craftsmen" [1].
| I'm surprised that is legal.
|
| http://www.frank-lin.com/pdf/Black_Saddle_sell_sheet.pdf
| dboreham wrote:
| Don Draper at work.
| fnord123 wrote:
| > If we assume that every bottle of Baileys delivered eight
| generous servings that suggests that over 12 billion glasses of
| Baileys have been poured since it all began.
|
| Holy cow are people filling tumblers with the stuff? It's nice as
| a shot but more than that is sickly.
| foobar33333 wrote:
| I mix it with milk and its really nice.
| BuildTheRobots wrote:
| That was a supprisingly engaging article. Here's some comments
| from 4 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15430653
| matznerd wrote:
| Check out this one on the creation of Grey Goose and the
| invention of the super premium category. Great story on luxury
| branding
| https://nymag.com/nymetro/news/bizfinance/biz/features/10816...
| Lio wrote:
| Always took a perverse pleasure in reminding my proud Irish
| relations that Baileys _Irish_ Cream was invented by some "Brit"
| out of a lab in Essex, England in the 1970s.
|
| They just _loved_ that one. :P
|
| I'd still pay the premium for Baileys. It's like buying off brand
| "Pringles"; you might save a small bit and the tin might look
| pretty similar but they taste is never taste quite right.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I dunno, you say "save a small bit" but the off-brand Baileys
| here costs EUR5 while the real stuff is closer to EUR20 (it
| varies by shop and depends on promotions a lot)
| w0mbat wrote:
| The story has always been set in London's vibrant Soho area,
| not Essex.
| Lio wrote:
| > We took it to the technical group in the Gilbeys building
| that housed their factory offices, distillery, research
| laboratories and warehouse in Harlow, Essex,
|
| I think I always associated it with Harlow but I wouldn't let
| the truth get in the way when winding up my family relations.
| :D
| w0mbat wrote:
| The office where they came up with the idea and first mixed
| prototypes is in Soho, as in the story.
| mandmandam wrote:
| Coole Swan is nicer by far, if you ever get the chance to try
| it.
| I_complete_me wrote:
| For the curious, the name likely refers to another kinda
| Irish gift to the world W.B. Yeats' poem The Wild Swans at
| Coole [0]
|
| [0] https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43288/the-wild-
| swans-...
| as1992 wrote:
| > I, on the other hand, was most definitely an arriviste,
| having fled South Africa in 1961 aboard the Cape Town Castle to
| occupy a mattress on a floor in a shared room in Earl's Court.
|
| He was South African though ;)
|
| I'd agree though, off brand baileys just doesn't taste the
| same. I think it was Aldi I bought a similar one from before,
| and It was fine, but it's kind of similar to Pepsi vs Coke. I
| like pepsi, but if I order Coke, and I get pepsi, I'm
| disappointed as I was expecting Coke, even though to me both
| taste similar and I like both.
| Lio wrote:
| Haha, true but he's still one of "us", just like Sid James,
| Chris Froome, Gordon Murray ...or my Irish Mum. ;)
| ArteEtMarte wrote:
| And Bob Holness, the first actor to play James Bond. But
| not, alas, the saxophonist on Baker Street.
|
| My mum's Irish too, but can't stand Bailey's.
| DonaldFisk wrote:
| Second actor, preceded by Barry Nelson:
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310853/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_14
| fouc wrote:
| Pepsi is noticeably sweeter, I prefer coke as it's got a bit
| more of a 'dry' taste to it.
| bjarneh wrote:
| > It's like buying off brand "Pringles"
|
| Does anyone make worse chips than Pringles?
| [deleted]
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Pringles are not chips. They are mathematically precise
| reifications of idealized perfection. It has nothing to do
| with potatoes and binders, those are only incidental. It's
| all about the libidinal act of destroying perfect objects
| with your mouth.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_stage
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Of course they are not chips, they are crisps.
| andi999 wrote:
| Never thought of it this way, but that is obviously and
| irrefutably true.
| cnity wrote:
| I want to read the books you are reading.
| defen wrote:
| To bring it full circle, the guy who invented the
| Pringles machine is a famous author (Gene Wolfe)
| pabs3 wrote:
| or writing...
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| In my case, given a fairly weak upper palate, it's also a
| case of destroying your mouth with perfect objects.
| awestroke wrote:
| Apparently off brand pringles are worse, if such a thing is
| even possible. But I'd argue pringles are not chips
| bjarneh wrote:
| > if such a thing is even possible
|
| Exactly. The way Pringles taste; to go looking for "off
| brand" Pringles at lower prices seems totally nuts.
|
| I'm not sure if they are crisps, chips or just a horrid
| potato mix formed into "perfect shapes"; but whatever they
| are, their popularity is a mystery to me.
| OJFord wrote:
| Also popular are ready meals and squashed-sponge pre-
| sliced 'bread' that takes a year to mould.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| If you want bread that molds readily, try getting some
| Francesi rolls. I've had those mold on the way home from
| the store.
|
| (Some people might argue that that was just bread that
| was already moldy in the store. Perhaps, but Francesi
| rolls really will mold within a day or two of purchase.)
| mft_ wrote:
| I used to frequent an Indian restaurant which gave a free shot
| of 'fake Baileys' at the end of your meal. We actually came to
| prefer it to real Baileys - partly because it was a bit less
| thick and sweet, and probably partly from the positive
| association with a satisfying meal of very good Indian food.
| simonh wrote:
| I quite like Baileys but find it a bit too light and sweet on
| it's own. It's great in a BMW (Baileys Malibu & Whiskey), or
| just with a splash of Southern Comfort.
| aerostable_slug wrote:
| Nearly off-topic aside: if you like Bailey's, try Dooley's.
| It's like a toffee/praline version of Bailey's, and pretty
| darned tasty (and I generally don't have much of a sweet
| tooth).
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooley%27s
|
| In the fine tradition of Bailey's Irish name but British birth,
| Dooley's is German.
| dash2 wrote:
| I think this was my favourite line, absolutely redolent of
| Britain in the 70s: "Two policemen came in this afternoon and
| demolished the whole bottle between them." They were probably
| planning a frame-up.
| lewisflude wrote:
| Interesting chemistry experiment you can try at home is to mix
| Baileys and lime cordial. Also known as a "cement mixer".
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement_mixer_(drink)
| mattowen_uk wrote:
| mmmm Baileys... pour it chilled over vanilla ice-cream and thank
| me later.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| It's the one thing that Bailey's is good for in my opinion!
| imgabe wrote:
| This job just seems so alien to me. How do you get a job where
| major corporations just task you with things like "Come up with a
| new product for us. Something Irish themed. Alcoholic."
|
| And all you have to deliver is a basic concept? Someone else
| figures out all the logistics and how to deliver at scale?
|
| How much do they pay for that? (Oh PS3000 per the article. Still,
| in 1973 money, for a few hours work, not bad)
| cm2012 wrote:
| That's like 18000 today, still cheap for the amount of work put
| in.
| petercooper wrote:
| A lot of the stories I've heard from people who've worked at
| places like Ogilvy have taken a similar tack.
|
| More often, though, advertising agencies redefine a (often
| failing) product through rebranding. Such as a gin to which
| they added cucumber - unusual at the time - to make it seem
| classy and British to American consumers, or Diamond Shreddies:
| https://fameable.com/diamond-shreddies-rebranding-case-study...
| gammarator wrote:
| 3000 pounds flat rate, from the article.
| johncalvinyoung wrote:
| Not a few hours work. Also R&D on the recipe, market research,
| figuring out a bottle, designing and printing labels, etc?
| dghf wrote:
| > My dinner-party party piece for many years was to say, "Well,
| actually, I invented Baileys. You know, Baileys Irish Cream. I
| did that back in 1973."
|
| > Hugh looked at me with an almost earnest stare. "What would
| happen if we mixed Irish whiskey and cream?" he said. "That might
| be interesting." He sat back and waited for a response.
|
| Sounds to me like it was actually Hugh who invented Baileys.
| urbandw311er wrote:
| Came here to say this
| Chris2048 wrote:
| I used to drink something balled a "brown bomber": chocolate milk
| with brandy.
|
| No one ever took my drink since I was the only one who liked it.
| It was pretty high-sugar, but I think that (and the milk) helped
| with hangovers.
| rattyc wrote:
| You've not lived until you've had a lager and gin & tonic and
| Baileys Irish cream chaser.
| ArteEtMarte wrote:
| We call it a ladyboy.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I've never really thought about it, but I guess an "Irish Car
| Bomb" doesn't exist on the eastern side of the Atlantic:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Car_Bomb
| Accacin wrote:
| Yeah most people would find it in poor taste. No point in
| ruining a perfectly decent pint of Guinness. The comment you
| were replying to was referring to the "Lady Boy" drink from
| Alan Partridge.
| soylentcola wrote:
| American here. I did a semester abroad in Ireland, and one
| particularly clueless fellow in our group of students made
| the mistake of ordering one of these in an (actual) Irish
| pub.
|
| He was firmly asked to leave - and lucky that was all. I
| imagine he wasn't the first uninformed tourist to make this
| request. Years later, I likened it to ordering a "9/11" in
| Manhattan, although it's not a perfect analogy.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Ordering one in Britain is possibly closer1, and a
| bartender I used to live with said clueless, young,
| American tourists would try this every few months.
|
| They were usually dealt with by referring them to history
| section of their _Lonely Planet_.
|
| 1 Several car/truck bombings with considerable property
| damage, although usually limited casualties.
| rsynnott wrote:
| No; it'd be a bit like calling a cocktail "The 9/11", really.
| mijail wrote:
| "Over the years I have come to the conclusion that the real
| heroes of ideas are not the people who have them - they are the
| people who buy them."
|
| Absolutely love this.
| amelius wrote:
| Has anyone found a decent alcohol-free version?
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| You could buy alcohol free whisky (or concoct it using various
| spices) and mix with chocolate, milk and cream.
| YokoZar wrote:
| I don't know how it compares exactly but there is a non-
| alcoholic product also known as "Irish Cream". If you want to
| find it (or recipes for home made versions) the best thing to
| do is search for "Irish Cream Coffee Creamer".
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Have you tried watering down some cream with added dried cocoa
| powder?
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(page generated 2021-09-27 23:01 UTC)