[HN Gopher] Apple's app review prevents developer from submittin...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Apple's app review prevents developer from submitting fix to game
       for the blind
        
       Author : latexr
       Score  : 318 points
       Date   : 2021-09-26 18:52 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.applevis.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.applevis.com)
        
       | adolph wrote:
       | It's regretable that so many bigcoes have to outsource their
       | customer service exception pathway thru HN.
        
       | DarkmSparks wrote:
       | I wish blindness on whoever rejected the update. At the very
       | least a couple of weeks with restricted vision to teach them some
       | empathy.
        
       | WoodenChair wrote:
       | Not directly related but another "today" App Store rejection
       | story for rules being incorrectly applied: I had an app get
       | rejected today for referencing MacPaint in the subtitle. It was
       | in the subtitle because one of the major features is that it
       | exports images to MacPaint format. The reviewer cited their rule
       | about not using Apple trademarks in the title or subtitle. Which
       | is fair enough, except that their trademark on MacPaint expired
       | in 2007 (I checked before submitting actually). I ended up
       | changing the subtitle, removing MacPaint, and the app was
       | approved later today. I did call out in the resolution center
       | that the trademark had expired, but of course I got no reply.
        
         | threeseed wrote:
         | Apple still has an active trademark for MacPaint in UK [1].
         | 
         | If you're app is for sale in the UK, which almost all are, then
         | Apple is obliged to enforce their trademark.
         | 
         | [1] https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-
         | tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00...
        
           | WoodenChair wrote:
           | Fair enough, I didn't think to look abroad. But just for
           | context, suppose my app subtitle were "PDF to Apple Pages." I
           | think if it's in the context of a file format, as mine was,
           | there should be some sort of leeway. "Photo to MacPaint
           | Converter" is basically what my subtitle was.
        
       | paxys wrote:
       | Unpredictable enforcement of rules is the biggest problem with
       | the App Store today. As a small time developer you have to be
       | ready to jump through every hoop Apple puts in front of you, what
       | else can you do really? But then in the next update you get a
       | different reviewer who goes "no those hoops you jumped through
       | were wrong" and penalizes you for it. Rinse and repeat.
        
       | supernintendo wrote:
       | Some of the reasons Apple comes up with for rejecting developers'
       | apps are such bullshit. Like I can understand trying to stop
       | scams, malware etc. but this gatekeeping based on Apple's
       | subjective evaluation of the quality of your app when you have no
       | other option for shipping on iOS is the reason why I just don't
       | consider it a serious platform. iPhones and iPads are more like
       | iPods to me at this point; cool toys with overpowered hardware
       | that do a few simple things well.
       | 
       | There's also a lot of irony in Apple judging whether or not your
       | app is good enough. Like does anyone actually think Apple is cool
       | in 2021? To me they've just become another boring, stuffy
       | corporation like Dell and HP. The iPhone 13 is so incredibly
       | uninteresting and inconsequential that I couldn't even remember
       | what number they were on when I was typing this comment. That
       | whole launch just came and went.
        
         | cglace wrote:
         | I seem to be able to use my toy for quite a bit.
        
         | threeseed wrote:
         | I have developed over a dozen iOS apps so I am sympathetic to
         | the frustration as a developer.
         | 
         | But as a user I fully support Apple for curating the App Store
         | experience. Discoverability is a challenge when you have this
         | many apps and it's simply not fun having to wade through so
         | many low quality, user-hostile apps.
         | 
         | You only need to look at the Windows Store to know that
         | curation is an integral part of making a store work.
        
       | PerkinWarwick wrote:
       | Oh well, that's what you get when decisions are made by a
       | combination of algorithm and sweatshop call center.
       | 
       | I have to admit that software for blind people sounds like a
       | fascinating specialty. I'd love to get into it but being not-
       | blind (came close though) probably gives one false theories on
       | design. I love the angle of making software that requires only a
       | microphone and a speaker, it would be an amazing way to rethink
       | the world.
        
         | zepto wrote:
         | If you follow apple's accessibility guidelines, your iOS app is
         | already accessible by the blind.
        
           | JanneVee wrote:
           | Accessible does not always mean usable. That is the whole rub
           | of the submitted link. The developer has better UX for blind
           | users and the reviewers discard that as a criteria.
        
           | matsemann wrote:
           | People say that about the web, too. "If you write semantic
           | html and use aria tags, it's accessible".
           | 
           | In theory, yes, but in practice it's probably a very bad
           | experience unless actively worked on. For instance, I worked
           | on a "seat chooser" once, that actually was very keyboard
           | friendly and worked with screen readers. But trying to
           | actually use it to select a specific seat for a blind was
           | impossible. A seeing user can just press the seat directly,
           | or tab quickly until the correct one is selected. But with
           | voiceover it had to read out "seat 7B, $5 extra, not
           | occupied, extra leg room, aisle, power outlet".
           | 
           | An actually useful way of selecting a seat would be to
           | specify a seat directly, or some kind of filter for wanted
           | features, a table or whatever. Not just take a visual way of
           | presenting something and slap on some voice data.
        
             | zepto wrote:
             | > People say that about the web, too. "If you write
             | semantic html and use aria tags, it's accessible".
             | 
             | The two aren't comparable. It's not even close. I take it
             | you haven't actually built an iOS app.
             | 
             | That said, for sure, you can build a custom UI that is
             | inaccessible, but with iOS if you build something that is
             | close to conventional, you'd be surprised by how well it
             | works.
        
               | jtsiskin wrote:
               | How would iOS fix the seat selection example they gave?
        
               | zepto wrote:
               | > for sure, you can build a _custom UI_ that is
               | inaccessible
               | 
               | Provide a _non custom UI_ alongside the custom one. Use
               | tabs to offer 'graphical' and 'list' views.
               | 
               | The comment I replied to said this:
               | 
               | > In theory, yes, but in practice it's probably a very
               | bad experience unless actively worked on
               | 
               | It's also not even clear that the UI they described was
               | that bad for blind people.
               | 
               | The voiceover information is relevant to making a
               | selection, and the blind person can't see that data so it
               | needs to be read to them at some point. Of course it's
               | not as easy to use as if you can see it. They describe a
               | search function, and I propose a plain list, but there
               | isn't a lot of evidence that either would require less
               | interaction.
        
               | WastingMyTime89 wrote:
               | > It's also not even clear that the UI they described was
               | that bad for blind people.
               | 
               | Obviously it's bad. Becoming blind doesn't magically make
               | you infinitely patient. Having to listen to a whole
               | listing of airplane seats one by one with unnecessary
               | details when you just want to book a place would probably
               | make you crazy. Well it's the same for your blind users.
        
         | SSLy wrote:
         | I believe quite a few of those blind-accessible apps also use
         | touchscreen gestures, accelerator, and buttons for inputs.
        
       | alkz wrote:
       | just classic apple hostility towards their users and developers
        
       | gtirloni wrote:
       | If you get a permission to publish on the App Store the first
       | time, shouldn't that be permanent? Why do developers have to
       | justify _every_ new update?
        
         | kmeisthax wrote:
         | No. Apple absolutely does not want to have "App Store case
         | law". They want the rules to be what the agreement says and no
         | more.
         | 
         | In fact, trying to cite other approvals in an argument in App
         | Review is usually a good way to get other developers' apps
         | pulled.
        
           | kall wrote:
           | In the emails from the Epic trial, they had a special acronym
           | just for this: UTB (under the bus) that was used in multiple
           | contexts (so probably not a one off joke).
        
         | xvector wrote:
         | Because it makes being malicious trivial if all you have to do
         | is get approved once
        
         | david_allison wrote:
         | There are apps on the Play Store which get updated, and now
         | sideload malware.
         | 
         | It's not feasible to get in touch with Google to fix/remove
         | these.
         | 
         | It's a hard issue to solve; Apple are erring on the side of
         | user safety.
        
           | oauea wrote:
           | I feel very safe knowing blind people aren't allowed to play
           | hangman.
        
             | BrightGlow wrote:
             | Blind people can also get malware...
        
         | labster wrote:
         | You have it backwards. If Apple doesn't review every update,
         | how can they justify 30% transaction fees?
        
           | threeseed wrote:
           | The same way every digital and retail store does: as a
           | "channel to market" cost.
           | 
           | Apple hands you willing buyers on a silver platter and you
           | pay for it.
        
         | saagarjha wrote:
         | Because apps change.
        
           | croes wrote:
           | But you can't suddenly rate it as spam just because other
           | similar apps exist. Certain criterias are only valid for the
           | initial release and not for updates.
        
         | Closi wrote:
         | Because developers will just submit a first version which
         | follows the rules, and then just put anything non-compliant in
         | the update.
        
           | peterburkimsher wrote:
           | That would be treachery of Epic proportions ;)
        
         | shreddit wrote:
         | In theory, you could do a 180 turn on the content of your app
         | with every update. So a permanent green light would do more bad
         | than good
        
           | flatiron wrote:
           | Totally. But there has to be some middle ground. If you did a
           | 180 then do a manual review. If the app is fundamentally the
           | same with a minor bug fix then why review it?
        
             | Someone wrote:
             | How do you suggest Apple determines whether an update does
             | a 180 or just has a minor bug fix? Trust the submitter?
        
         | Razengan wrote:
         | Apply that logic to _any_ service where access is a privilege
         | and see how that works. (i.e. getting away with doing whatever
         | you want once you are inside restaurants, forums, HN, etc.)
        
         | concinds wrote:
         | That's how Steam works. I think it's a much more dev-friendly
         | policy, because in practice there's really zero reason to
         | review Adobe or Microsoft or OmniGroup app updates since you
         | know they won't turn into scam apps overnight; it's weird to me
         | Apple hasn't done a "Trusted Developer" program to exempt the
         | biggest devs from this headache. There's no reason why the
         | weird clone apps (like the app that shows up 3 results down,
         | when you search for "1Password", that trashily has the exact
         | same blue ring and keyhole but slightly different background)
         | should be treated the same as apps by hardworking, honest,
         | trustworthy developers. People would cry foul for unfairness
         | but there's also no way of letting the hundreds of thousands of
         | App Store devs all submit updates with no review, you'd end up
         | with something like the Chrome Web Store where apps get bought
         | and filled with malware all the time.
        
           | ethbr0 wrote:
           | This. Reputation based review standards is pretty low hanging
           | fruit.
           | 
           | You literally _already have_ an ongoing relationship with the
           | party in question, which is usually one of the biggest
           | hurdles to reputation systems (new users).
           | 
           | I expect the real reason they haven't moved in this direction
           | is fundamentally App Store review is seen as a tool of
           | ongoing control rather than quality. So the more frequently
           | something has to pass through it, the better.
           | 
           | If Apple can "find an issue" with your app every time you
           | update, that's a very different relationship than an ongoing
           | approval.
           | 
           | PS: Would also require developers to inform Apple of any
           | company sale / dev team replacement to prevent abuse (Didn't
           | mention you sold your company? Ban).
        
             | BrightGlow wrote:
             | With a reputation system you'd still want to do your due
             | diligence and manually check things. Even the most
             | trustworthy people make honest mistakes sometimes.
        
           | siva7 wrote:
           | The problem with this is that these big trusted tech giants
           | have abused the trust put in them to break compliance rules
           | of the app store because they can (facebook for example).
        
           | armchairhacker wrote:
           | > in practice there's really zero reason to review Adobe or
           | Microsoft or OmniGroup app updates
           | 
           | I can totally see Facebook pushing a update which uses
           | internal APIs to access private information outside of its
           | sandbox.
           | 
           | Honestly apps need to be verified after every update for much
           | of the same reasons they need to be verified initially. The
           | issue is the verification process itself, which sometimes
           | blocks legitimate developers while also sometimes allowing
           | scam apps.
        
             | kennywinker wrote:
             | private api issues are usually caught with automated binary
             | scans. You can obfuscate them to avoid detection but manual
             | review wouldn't help with that either
        
               | meibo wrote:
               | They can't even fix private API abuse, how do you expect
               | them to scan for it?
               | 
               | See: recent iOS exploits.
        
             | b3morales wrote:
             | This is fair, but I think we can agree that rejecting an
             | update on grounds of its basic features being duplicative,
             | when the feature set has not changed -- which is what
             | happened here -- is pretty absurd.
        
             | trothamel wrote:
             | "which uses internal APIs to access private information
             | outside of its sandbox"
             | 
             | Isn't this being possible a security issue with iOS?
        
             | mlang23 wrote:
             | Wait, did you just imply that apps by certain big companies
             | dont need a review because you think these special biig
             | companies deserve a bit of extra trust? Fascinating, how
             | did you arrive at this conclusion?
        
               | sunderw wrote:
               | He actually arrived at the exact opposite conclusion: all
               | apps should be reviewed after each update because not
               | even (or especially) big companies can't be trusted.
        
               | gumby wrote:
               | No, armchairhacker said the opposite: even big famous
               | companies need review of every update.
               | 
               | And the original poster (the blind game developer) says
               | so too
        
               | catlifeonmars wrote:
               | Did you mean to reply to the grandparent poster?
        
           | kmeisthax wrote:
           | Well, first off, big developers are known to occasionally
           | ship features that Apple wouldn't like. Facebook used their
           | enterprise cert to ship a spyware VPN, and Epic used a hotfix
           | to ship a direct payments feature in Fortnite. So there's no
           | reason to treat Adobe or Microsoft as more trustworthy based
           | on reputation when you're specifically imposing business
           | requirements on them that they won't like. If you're not
           | looking at what they submit, eventually they are going to try
           | and ship something under Apple's nose.
           | 
           | Second, Apple _really hates_ the idea of special rules for
           | specific developers. When they make an exception for, say,
           | Kindle; they don 't just approve Kindle. They change the App
           | Store rules to say "apps that are just viewing content
           | purchased on other devices don't have to use IAP". The
           | closest thing they have to special rules are entitlements;
           | things like Zoom's special camera multitasking entitlement
           | comes to mind. However, even that ultimately wound up being
           | something other developers of video chat apps could ask for,
           | they just didn't say anything about it until they got called
           | out on it.
           | 
           | The 1Password example you cite is plain 'ol trademark
           | infringement. I imagine Apple isn't particularly interested
           | in doing trademark enforcement for third parties, though I'm
           | pretty sure they wrote the rules to allow them to do exactly
           | that. This is definitely something where Apple could be more
           | proactive, but there's a limit to how much they can do before
           | you get people complaining about Apple going overboard.
        
         | siva7 wrote:
         | For security/compliance reasons as in don't trust the developer
         | by default. To be honest, i appreciate this concept as it makes
         | the store more secure for the users.
        
       | lozenge wrote:
       | I was going to write a snarky comment about upgrading too early,
       | but:
       | 
       | "Exploring images with VoiceOver: Explore people, objects, text,
       | and tables within images in more detail with VoiceOver. Navigate
       | receipts and nutrition label values intelligently in logical
       | order. And move your finger over a photo to discover a person's
       | position relative to other objects within images."
       | 
       | "Voice image descriptions in Markup: Markup lets the user add
       | image descriptions that can be read by VoiceOver. Image
       | descriptions persist even when shared and can be read in a range
       | of supported apps on iPhone, iPad, and Mac."
       | 
       | "Per-app settings: Customize display and text size settings on an
       | app-by-app basis. Bold or enlarge text, increase contrast, invert
       | colors, add color filters, and more for only the apps you want."
       | 
       | "Magnifier app: Magnifier finally becomes a default app on iOS,
       | so you can use your iPhone as a magnifying glass to zoom in on
       | objects near you."
        
       | sillysaurusx wrote:
       | Unrelated, but if you tweet photos, please take a moment to add
       | alt text. I started doing it a few months ago and it's remarkable
       | how easy it is _not_ to (and how much of an impact it can make
       | when you do).
        
       | jollybean wrote:
       | The asymmetry in power between 'everyone' and Apple, Amazon, FB
       | is a problem begging for regulation.
       | 
       | If companies are making byzantine and ridiculous claims against
       | other participants, it's bad for business.
       | 
       | This is completely outside the issues of Apple's right to manage
       | apps - if it's going to do so, it has to fairly clear policy and
       | way to redress grievances.
       | 
       | Things like: 'business review' and 'technical review' are
       | separate so that bug updates don't trigger a business reviews. If
       | a complaint is raised to level 2 and there are problems, it goes
       | to some kind of level 3 mediation, possibly by an outside party.
       | It also might be reasonable for Apple to require a small fee for
       | new feature release review i.e. $100 to release a new version and
       | have the business review. They could even consider having 3rd
       | parties do the reviewing and only have Apple weigh in if there is
       | a conflict. Etc..
       | 
       | Arbitrary and bad business operations are not good for anyone in
       | the long run.
        
       | neilv wrote:
       | At a previous company, when I was developing an iOS app, it was
       | difficult to impress upon the business people that there was a
       | very real risk of Apple simply cutting us off. (When Apple wanted
       | to compete in our space, or they cut a deal with a competitor of
       | ours, or they came up with some new idea about "security" or
       | "experience", or simply Kafkaesque random bureaucratic whim with
       | no appeal.)
       | 
       | I then had to explain why "the market" hadn't already corrected
       | that, and why regulators hadn't.
       | 
       | Separate from my professional career, one of the more personal
       | reasons that the reality of the iron-fisted mad-king Apple iOS
       | app store made me sad is... I had hard-won skills at some tricky
       | iOS things, and it would've been very tempting to moonlight on
       | some creative apps that did something new, while also generating
       | side income. But, for this and other Apple developer-hostile
       | reasons, I'd end up aggravated in my spare time, and always with
       | the risk that at some point Apple will stab me in the back.
       | That's no way to spend one's spare time refreshing from the real
       | job.
        
       | friedman23 wrote:
       | According to all the apple apologists on hackernews that think
       | having an open app store ecosystem is bad, "apple knows what's
       | best for me" is the response they should be giving right about
       | now
        
       | ogomez92 wrote:
       | Hi, I am the developer of the app in question, accessible
       | hangman, as well as the other games I hve made for iOS. I am a
       | blind developer myself, that is why I thought htat making games
       | for the blind would be the best approach for me. I chose Apple's
       | platform, instead of Android, because of the way that SwiftUI
       | lets me write the UI via code and change visual appearance of
       | buttons, etc just by adding button shapes, icons, etc.
       | 
       | Now, I do understand that every app needs to go through review
       | every time it is updated, of course. But this is verion 2.5 of
       | the app, this is in no way the first or second version. So yes,
       | Apple seems to find a new issue when someone just finds a little
       | light in their brain clicking into place, the first version had
       | no such issue. But after 4 or 5 versions, oooooh wait, your app
       | does not comply with blah blah blah. So, yes, I think this is
       | unfair. Anyway, I have some news regarding this whole hing, the
       | update was pushed through and approved finally so I'm a bit less
       | worried, they still say I should talk to them on the phone so
       | they're going to schedule a call with me. Let's see how this
       | turns out. Thanks all.
        
         | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
         | I wish you luck. Thanks for writing accessible software.
         | 
         | I am not (visibly) disabled, myself, but write software for a
         | demographic that has a statistically high number of folks
         | dealing with various challenges. Accessibility is a big deal
         | for me (as is Usability -Accessibility's redheaded stepchild).
         | I do things like provide localizable accessibility labels, as
         | well as support for things like colorblind access, high
         | contrast mode, and reduced transparency mode.
         | 
         | I have also released over 20 apps in the App Store (myself),
         | since 2012, and am the proud recipient of _many_ app rejection
         | notes.
         | 
         | One of the more annoying things, is that the reviewers are
         | required to select from a menu of rejection reasons. They can't
         | just write "You need to add a plist row to ensure the new
         | permission we just added is presented to the user." Instead,
         | they have to send you some generalized "blanket" reason that
         | includes that requirement, among a list of others that don't
         | apply.
         | 
         | It's easy to panic, when we get these.
         | 
         | In my case, I sometimes need to break out a Ouija board, to
         | figure out what they mean.
         | 
         | Fortunately, I have had very good luck in getting folks on the
         | phone. They still tend to "beat around the bush," but you can
         | usually figure out what they want.
        
         | cwbrandsma wrote:
         | I've had this sort of thing happen to me as well. Often
         | different reasons, for example: one reviewer didn't like my
         | permission text for camera access.
         | 
         | Twice now I've had to appeal the review. Each time the appeal
         | worked in my favor and I was able to publish again. Keep in
         | mind, as part of the appeal process they call you, so you will
         | need to be answering unknown calls for a while. But the people
         | I've talked to that handled the appeal process were all very
         | nice.
        
         | juancn wrote:
         | Talk to them. Apple is a huge company, but they really care
         | about user experience (developers or otherwise), even if
         | sometimes they fail at it.
         | 
         | It's a staple of large corporations struggling scale processes
         | and at the same time properly handle edge cases.
        
           | cortesoft wrote:
           | > Talk to them
           | 
           | How? He tried talking to them, and they rejected his appeal.
        
         | kolanos wrote:
         | Unrelated to your comment, I would love to know more about your
         | dev setup. I am a fellow blind developer and have found XCode
         | to be a mixed bag accessibility wise.
        
         | bellweather49 wrote:
         | Sorry for the tangent, but as a blind user, how do you manage
         | to use HackerNews? I can't get a screenreader to pronounce
         | indentation as the indentation of the comments is done with gif
         | images as spacers. Do you know of a HackerNews app or
         | alternative website that works better form an accessibility
         | poinf-of-view? (I'm using NVDA on Windows).
        
           | AlexAndScripts wrote:
           | That's awful... Why would it be done like that?
        
           | jraph wrote:
           | I've noticed that in terminal browsers as well (as a non-
           | blind person).
           | 
           | I suggest dropping a line about this to dang at
           | hn@ycombinator.com. He is extremely nice and helpful.
           | 
           | I've always felt HN should use nested lists for comments.
        
           | kolanos wrote:
           | I use the "[-]" next to comments. Collapsing/uncollapsing
           | comment trees lets me know what is nested under what.
        
       | oauea wrote:
       | Watch Apple suspend this developer now for violating their policy
       | (causing more "spam", a term apple loves to use, to be sent to
       | their accessibility inbox).
        
       | judge2020 wrote:
       | For everyone visiting this thread, I'd highly recommend this talk
       | by the previous head of App Store review Phillip Shoemaker:
       | https://youtu.be/tJeEuxn9mug
        
       | mlang23 wrote:
       | Apple killed one of the best voiceover enabled single-player
       | poker simulator about 2 years ago. THETAPoker was absolutely
       | great, and the author invested a lot of time and energy to make
       | the game perfectly self-voicing. Until Apple review falsely
       | identified it as a gambling-app which needs to be banned. The
       | author tried to get someone to listen at apple, and was totally
       | ignored. Now, Apple has a similar poker simulator, called
       | hold'em, which is by far not as good regarding VoiceOver support.
       | It feels like a scam to kick someone from the AppStore who did a
       | very good job just to make your own botched copy-cat app more
       | prominent.
       | 
       | That said, Apple VoiceOver is still one of the best shipped-by-
       | default accessibility systems. However, we have to thank Steve
       | Jobs for this. If it were only for Tim Cook, apple wouldn't even
       | know how to _spell_ accessibility.
        
         | robocat wrote:
         | > Apple VoiceOver is still one of the best shipped-by-default
         | accessibility systems
         | 
         | Which is frightening, because two years ago I had a terrible
         | experience trying to modify a web app to be accessible using
         | VoiceOver (I gave up after over a week of solid effort).
         | 
         | We couldn't afford[1] to pay a third party to modify our 100%
         | custom HTML framework[2], and VoiceOver seemed the most
         | approachable for me to try and see how far I could progress on
         | making our web app accessible.
         | 
         | VoiceOver just felt so very buggy - although perhaps the issue
         | was the integration of VoiceOver within Mobile Safari (my dev
         | experience is that Mobile Safari is a steaming pile of problems
         | - current example is that iPadOS15 Safari crashes twice on many
         | pages then goes blank so you can't use it!).
         | 
         | As a dev, there also needs to be some better online training
         | for using VoiceOver, since small teams do not have easy access
         | to a colleague that uses it.
         | 
         | [1] We could pay 100% blind users to give us feedback, but
         | couldn't afford to pay a skilled team to consult and do the
         | work.
         | 
         | [2] Custom framework because we started our product before
         | reliable frameworks existed. Modern components are often
         | designed to support accessibility out of the box, which is far
         | preferable!
        
           | zzt123 wrote:
           | I have Google Sheets that have a moderate number of cells
           | (~500k, so 10% of the maximum allowed), and I can't get
           | mobile Safari to load them most of the time. When they do
           | load, it is invariably impossible to switch tabs more than
           | once within the sheet.
           | 
           | Luckily, Chrome for iOS exists :(
        
             | lathiat wrote:
             | Chrome for iOS uses the same safari rendering engine as
             | third party browser engines are not allowed. So very
             | curious if it works in iOS Chrome but not Safari as it's
             | mostly the same.
             | 
             | Also for your specific use case (I realise you were making
             | a point) would be worth using the app I guess.
        
               | zzt123 wrote:
               | Hmm didn't know they use the same rendering engine, but
               | the success rate is not the same.
               | 
               | The Google Sheets app is a no-go because it kept using
               | stale data for some reason. The sheets are regularly
               | updated via script, and the app would constantly fail to
               | show recent data.
        
           | stephenhuey wrote:
           | I was wondering if just my MacBook had an issue since Safari
           | just goes to a blank white when opening New Relic, but I
           | guess Safari is having this strange problem a lot more than
           | that.
        
         | bangonkeyboard wrote:
         | Apple's Texas Hold'em actually dates to 2006.
        
       | lisper wrote:
       | This is particularly evil in light of the fact that security
       | updates are bound to OS versions. I tried to update my iPhone the
       | other day to iOS 14.8 for the security patches, but it wouldn't
       | let me. It would only let me upgrade to 15.0. So now I have a
       | choice: I can either have the security patches, or I can have
       | this (previously approved) app. I can't have both.
       | 
       | This specific app is not an issue for me (I'm not blind) but
       | there is another app that I _do_ rely on that has also not been
       | upgrade to 15.0 so I 'm still faced with the same dilemma. And
       | unfortunately, this particular app (Foreflight) is iOS-only.
        
         | b3morales wrote:
         | Did you try via your Mac or the phone's own Settings? FYI, the
         | latter is where you will find the 14.8 update offered.
        
           | lisper wrote:
           | I tried both with the same result. Weirdly, my phone is one
           | of four devices that I tried to update at the same time, all
           | of which were running the same version of the OS to start
           | (14.4.1). Three of those devices let me upgrade to 14.8. Only
           | one (my phone) did not. It's weird. My guess is that I got
           | stuck in some sort of A-B test.
           | 
           | I contacted Apple tech support and they have so far escalated
           | through two levels. The ticket is still open.
        
             | b3morales wrote:
             | That sounds annoying. Good luck!
        
       | oauea wrote:
       | Apple always does this for all kinds of apps. It sucks, and I
       | don't understand why people keep on happily suffering under their
       | abuse.
        
         | Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
         | Because AppStore is a monopoly and if you want to publish apps
         | for iOS users, you have one course: obey to their draconian
         | rules and arbitrary review processes.
        
           | VortexDream wrote:
           | This is the issue I was hoping the Epic case would solve.
           | They all missed the plot though, so we're stuck with this
           | bullshit.
        
             | WesolyKubeczek wrote:
             | Because Epic didn't launch the lawsuit out of the kindness
             | of their souls, I doubt they even have what passes for a
             | soul. They also put their case into jeopardy by knowingly
             | breaking the rules first and then complaining the rules
             | were bad.
             | 
             | But they have definitely stirred some publicity (including
             | nongeek audience) around all these practices, which is
             | good, maybe someone is going to have a better case riding
             | this wave.
        
         | simonh wrote:
         | The fact that one reviewer missed a potential policy violation
         | is no good reason to ignore a policy violation when it's found.
         | 
         | If violations got automatically grandfathered in, you'd get
         | devs pulling tricks like sneaking barely functional violations
         | into the app so it's unlikely to be spotted then when they got
         | it approved make it fully functional.
         | 
         | In any case, it looks like Apple is already engaged with the
         | dev to sort this out. They've made some major changes to review
         | appeals in the last year or two.
        
       | Jensson wrote:
       | Apple should really dogfood their own review system by applying
       | it to their own apps. Would probably fix these inconsistent
       | things pretty quickly.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | advael wrote:
       | Unfortunately this sort of thing is pretty much inevitable when a
       | large org like Apple makes itself the single bottleneck for all
       | apps. No org that big can actually serve everyone's needs
       | 
       | (Cue people whose needs it serves coming to tell me all about it)
        
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