[HN Gopher] Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untang...
___________________________________________________________________
Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global
supply chain
Author : prostoalex
Score : 138 points
Date : 2021-09-24 15:08 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| ilamont wrote:
| _Most recently, the apparel world has been roiled by revelations
| that cotton from Xinjiang, in China, is being grown and processed
| using forced labour. The scandal implicated some of the world's
| biggest brands, including H &M, Nike, Adidas and Gap, and
| prompted sanctions and restrictions in the west on imports made
| of Xinjiang cotton. Last August, not long after the US banned all
| imports containing Xinjiang cotton, US customs authorities asked
| Oritain for a pilot demonstration of its cotton-tracing
| abilities._
|
| This is one of the reasons China is going particularly ballistic
| over Xinjiang cotton. In the past supply chain controversies
| could be "fixed" relatively easy with bogus local inspections,
| fake documentation, or supplier shell games, but the science here
| is harder to fool.
|
| This not just an issue for cotton. As the article notes, fake
| fish can be spotted with genetic analysis, and that's a global
| problem with very local consequences. The Boston Globe did a big
| report on this a few years back, concluding many local
| restaurants and markets in Eastern Massachusetts were flat-out
| lying about the fish they were selling:
|
| _Ken's Steak House in Framingham again served Pacific cod
| instead of a more expensive Atlantic species. Slices of fish sold
| as white tuna at Sea To You Sushi in Brookline were again
| actually escolar, an oily species nicknamed the "ex-lax'' fish by
| some in the industry because it can cause digestion problems. H
| Mart, an Asian supermarket chain found to have sold mislabeled
| red snapper last year, this time was selling inexpensive
| freshwater Nile perch as pricier ocean grouper at its Burlington
| store._
|
| https://www3.bostonglobe.com/business/specials/fish/?arc404=...
| 0x000000001 wrote:
| The fake fish situation is well documented in the book Real
| Food/Fake Food
|
| http://www.realfoodfakefood.com/real-food-fake-food-book-by-...
| m463 wrote:
| I wonder how much "crab" in restaurants is crab.
|
| On the other hand, I wonder how much "seafood soup" is actually
| the real deal (sharkfin soup)
| wyre wrote:
| Why does seafood soup imply shark fin soup? Are you not
| concerned with the ethical concerns around sharkfin soup?
| m463 wrote:
| I was told restaurants that used to serve sharkfin soup
| served "seafood soup" after sharkfin was made illegal.
|
| The gist of what I was saying was that crab -> fake, and
| ironically "seafood soup" was actually genuine sharkfin
| paxys wrote:
| Also makes me think that if two different varieties of fish,
| steak etc. are so indistinguishable to the end consumer that
| you have to rely on genetic analysis to separate them, what
| warrants the massively inflated price of one over the other?
|
| If I order a $500 bottle of wine but am served from a $50
| bottle, and neither I nor anyone else at the table can tell the
| difference, did I not still get the $500 "experience" I wanted?
| ketzo wrote:
| I mean, to be fair, it's not like you're sampling the fish at
| the market. Plus, most people don't assume they're being lied
| to; your thought might very well be, "huh, this is some
| pretty bad Atlantic cod" instead of "this must be the
| inferior Pacific cod!"
| wil421 wrote:
| Just to nitpick slightly there is no such thing as white tuna.
| What's called white tuna is always escolar. Albacore is a
| pinkish or off white tuna but I've never seen it listed as
| white tuna at a restaurant.
| vharuck wrote:
| Out of curiosity, I wondered if the FDA agreed. And they do:
|
| https://www.cfsanappsexternal.fda.gov/scripts/fdcc/index.cfm.
| ..
|
| The FDA does warn against using the name "white tuna," but
| they sure don't seem to care in practice.
| [deleted]
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Back in university, I had a class that required I get up early
| some mornings so I walked past a lot of sushi places as fish
| was getting delivered. Lots of places getting boxes labelled
| escolar, but nobody had anything but tuna on the menu.
| [deleted]
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _Most recently, the apparel world has been roiled by
| revelations that cotton from Xinjiang, in China, is being grown
| and processed using forced labour. The scandal...prompted
| sanctions and restrictions in the west on imports made of
| Xinjiang cotton._
|
| This is super weird because the US _also_ still uses forced
| prison labor to pick cotton.
| random314 wrote:
| That's unfortunate. However, folks in the US prison system have
| been convicted of crimes.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Ignoring the fact that we've had prisoners, in places like
| e.g. Guantanamo, on and off who were/are held for decades
| without ever even being charged with anything, China has also
| charged its prisoners with crimes.
|
| You don't agree with China's decision to make practicing
| religion a crime, I don't agree with the US's decision to
| make possessing drugs a crime. Both are "crimes" punishable
| by incarceration according to the two governments.
| d4mi3n wrote:
| Presumably China has also convicted it's forced labor of some
| crimes as well.
|
| Regardless of what the laws are, I believe that prison labor
| is a bad practice with big ethical issues--it incentives
| incarceration as a means to procure cheap/free labor that can
| be used to turn a profit for those in power.
|
| EDIT: To clarify: I don't think giving prisoners an _option_
| to work is a bad thing, but nobody should be allowed to
| profit off of such labor other than the prisoner themselves.
| Anything else tends to lead towards undesirable incentives
| and outcomes.
| 0x000000001 wrote:
| Criminals are still humans and we should be using every
| effort to rehabilitate them and make them valuable members of
| society and contributors to the economy in a far more
| significant way
| rytor718 wrote:
| So slavery is legal as long as the slave is a criminal? I'm
| not following what's being implied.
| vkou wrote:
| The Gulags were also full of people who have committed
| crimes. Some of those crimes were even non-political!
|
| I can't say that's the argument that _I 'd_ use to defend
| slavery, though...
| RegnisGnaw wrote:
| So your equating prison in the US to the camps in Xinjiang?
| pphysch wrote:
| No, US prison camps are definitely worse due to their scale
| and history.
|
| > Many of these prisons had very recently been slave
| plantations, Angola and Mississippi State Penitentiary (known
| as Parchman Farm) among them.
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-.
| ..
|
| Uncomfortable truth. Will probably get flagged.
| anonchan wrote:
| The forced labor described in the article _is_
| unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for
| having a different religion and culture is worse than
| America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real
| criminal convictions.
| Quinner wrote:
| Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate
| black people. A third of black people will be
| incarcerated at some point in their lives. You're six
| times as likely to be incarcerated if you're black than
| if you're white.
| nickff wrote:
| ... And about ten or eleven times more likely to be
| incarcerated if you're male than female. Does this mean
| that the 'justice system' was twice as well 'designed to
| incarcerate' men?
|
| https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
| beckman466 wrote:
| the point is that there is too much Sinaphobia in
| mainstream western news outlets that means global north
| countries' behavior is not proportionately called out.
| many stories about China are unfounded and dangerous, and
| mostly have to do with China being technologically
| strong.
| [deleted]
| whycombinater wrote:
| 93% are men, 7% women.
|
| Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate
| men.
|
| edit: High five to sibling comment.
| beckman466 wrote:
| your point? both statistics are valid and relevant, and
| aren't mutually exclusive.
|
| weird comment. statistics aren't a game you win.
| [deleted]
| pphysch wrote:
| > But China imprisoning populations solely for having a
| different religion and culture
|
| Do you have any evidence for this claim that isn't
| compromised by a State Department-sized CoI? I'm
| genuinely curious.
| random314 wrote:
| Is that so hard to find? Here is a list of academics
| jailed for their ethnicity, as part if the genocide.
|
| https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf
| pphysch wrote:
| Wow, you unironically just linked a _Radio Free Asia_ [1]
| rag after I requested sources that don't have a "State
| Department sized CoI".
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Fr
| ee_Asia&m...
| WhySoGullible wrote:
| This is what Gene Bunin, the author of that list, had to
| say about his own database:
|
| > "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial
| comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible."
|
| Sounds incredibly reliable to me.
|
| [1]
| https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769
| joyeuse6701 wrote:
| Evidence is hard to come by because the CCP isn't
| forthcoming in the least, but we do have the
| investigative journalism of the NYT:
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-
| coverage...
| pphysch wrote:
| An I missing something or NYT is just linking to Zenz's
| and Allen-Ebrahimian's dubious claims?
| yorwba wrote:
| I think this Chinese government website might not have
| been compromised: http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace
| /c25030/2012-06/19/co...
|
| A man surnamed Ibrahim (so probably member of a Turkic
| Muslim minority) was sentenced to 10 years in prison and
| a fine of 200,000 RMB for illegally importing and selling
| illegal religious and/or pirated publications.
|
| Whether that's evidence of "China imprisoning populations
| solely for having a different religion and culture"
| depends on how much emphasis you put on the " _solely_ ".
| If he'd actually been licensed, he probably wouldn't have
| been arrested, but on the other hand I know a woman
| selling all kinds of Taoist snakeoil, and I don't think
| anyone's bothered to investigate her, so his religion
| likely played a role.
| pphysch wrote:
| This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide. The
| guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a crime,
| probably involving the distribution of jihadi material.
|
| The crime of illegally distributing documents would be
| brutally prosecuted in the US, possibly outside the legal
| system. Whether it's jihadi material or pirated Disney
| films.
| yorwba wrote:
| > This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide.
|
| You didn't ask about genocide in the comment I replied
| to.
|
| > The guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a
| crime, probably involving the distribution of jihadi
| material.
|
| The police seized 125250 copies. I doubt jihad is nearly
| that popular. (His city of Hetian only has 400,000
| inhabitants.) But importing any kind of religious
| publication beyond a small amount for personal use
| requires express permission http://www.gov.cn/ziliao/flfg
| /2007-04/20/content_589295.htm paragraph 10. Most likely
| it was just an edition of the Qur'an that hadn't been
| officially approved by the Islamic Association of China.
| fakedang wrote:
| It's very possible though that the guy was selling
| "illegal" Qurans, prayer mats and incantation beads, all
| of which are illegal material in Communist China. There's
| no chance in hell he could have legalized that business
| whatsoever, simply because the Chinese government does
| not take a liking to the Muslim faith (partly because
| they can't control it like they control the churches due
| to its decentralized nature).
| yorwba wrote:
| The centralized organisation serving as a conduit between
| the government and Muslims is the Islamic Association of
| China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_o
| f_China Among other things, it has produced an official
| translation of the Qur'an, published by China Social
| Sciences Press http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_
| 1_2__0_issueddate_... If he'd been selling that one, it
| would've been unproblematic. (But also unlikely to be
| very profitable.)
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _But China imprisoning populations solely for having a
| different religion and culture is worse than America
| imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal
| convictions._
|
| My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is
| good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a
| felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is
| good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a
| felony.
|
| What's the difference, exactly? What makes one criminal
| conviction "real" and the other not?
|
| Our incarceration system is no less culture-bound when we
| have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners)
| for nonviolent drug crimes.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or
| criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than
| "what is the meaning of life?"
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| I'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our
| incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have
| half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for
| nonviolent drug crimes.
| [deleted]
| pope_meat wrote:
| the 13th amendment states that the only acceptable form of
| slavery is prison labor.
|
| pair that with the fact that the united states is #1 in
| prisoners per capita, and it's not hard to come to a pretty
| dark conclusion...
| pessimizer wrote:
| Or equating forced prison labor to forced prison labor.
| stickfigure wrote:
| So you're saying that being a Uighur is an equivalent crime
| to committing robbery or assault?
| jorblumesea wrote:
| Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain
| ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for
| crimes. Even if the root of those crimes might be complex
| socio-economic factors like discrimination and income
| inequality.
|
| In addition, the level of human rights prisoners get in the
| US is far beyond what any Uighur experiences. Right to a
| lawyer, right to appeal convictions, visits from family
| members. It's really a false equivalency.
| r00fus wrote:
| > Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain
| ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for
| crimes.
|
| Even when policing in the US is so completely racially
| motivated? Driving (hell, biking/walking/breathing) while
| black is a reality of the US carceral system.
|
| The last year has really shown the world that US policing
| and incarceration is completely broken and highly
| resistant to even governance change (who's in charge of
| whom?)
|
| I'm not saying what China does with the Uyghur population
| is right. Just that the US is not far away. Hell, look at
| the border detention centers.
| [deleted]
| pempem wrote:
| A version of your comment from the PRC perspective would
| be:
|
| "These people are at the wrong mix of discrimination and
| are poor because they refuse to follow our laws and
| participate in our system. They have a right to convert,
| a right to appeal, and a right to negotiate by turning in
| family and friends who refuse to follow our laws."
|
| In fact discrimination would be the basis on which they
| are putting people to work, in camps.
|
| Additionally and separately: every single thing you've
| mentioned (right to a lawyer, right to appeal, even
| visits and costs of phone calls) have been shown to be
| stacked against low income, blue collar, or minority
| citizens repeatedly. A quick google search of "right to
| [x]" "poor defendants" or "black defendants" will clean
| this misapprehension right up for you. https://lmgtfy.app
| /?q=right+to+a+lawyer+%2B+poor+defendants
| ilamont wrote:
| Not just cotton. Fighting fires. Making License plates. Doing
| laundry.
|
| The difference is U.S. prisoners are convicted felons. Many
| volunteer for these jobs, such as the firefighters in
| California. Others are paid a small wage for their work or get
| reduced sentences.
|
| In China, it's members of specific minority groups such as
| Uyghurs who are singled out and put into concentration camps
| ... not because of what they have done, but because of _who
| they are and what they believe_.
|
| Uyghurs and other non-Han minority people in China are
| subjected to forced labor, forced abortions and idealogical re-
| education.
|
| Via the AP:
|
| _An estimated 1 million people or more -- most of them Uyghurs
| -- have been confined in re-education camps in Xinjiang in
| recent years, according to researchers. Chinese authorities
| have been accused of imposing forced labor, systematic forced
| birth control and torture, and separating children from
| incarcerated parents._
|
| https://apnews.com/article/only-on-ap-middle-east-europe-gov...
|
| The Guardian:
|
| _It estimated 570,000 people came through three minority-heavy
| prefectures alone - Aksu, Hotan, and Kashgar - and that labor
| programs in other ethnic minority regions as well as prison
| labor would probably add hundreds of thousands to the figure.
|
| The labour programs are not secret; they are frequently written
| about in state media as glowing examples of the government
| assisting millions of poor people into work, but those articles
| also contain clues to their coercive nature. Transferred
| workers are often sent far from their home, made to live on
| site in factories and subjected to ideological training.
|
| Publications on the labour schemes frequently include
| references to policies discouraging "illegal religious
| activities" and changing thoughts and behaviour._
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/xinjiang-china...
| linuxftw wrote:
| > The difference is U.S. prisoners are members of specific
| minority groups
|
| FTFY.
|
| > Many volunteer for these jobs
|
| True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23
| hours per day.
|
| In any case, using slave labor for profit is morally
| abhorrent. It creates very negative societal incentives, and
| it allows keeping the overall labor rate lower. I'd happily
| fight fires in CA or elsewhere, if the price is right.
| tbihl wrote:
| >True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell
| 23 hours per day.
|
| Source? A family member was charged with a felony for drugs
| and went to prison, and he was certainly not locked in his
| cell 23 hours daily.
| linuxftw wrote:
| Not all prisons are the same. The labor camps operate
| like this, your family member was either not in one of
| these prisons, or he took the job.
| rytor718 wrote:
| As another commenter also observed, "volunteer" is a very
| poor description of the situation. What exactly are the
| options here for the prisoner involved?
|
| And I think this is worth distinguishing: a slave is always
| prisoner of their enslaver. The reverse need not be the case,
| and yet our system turns prisoners into slaves through forced
| labor. There's no volunteerism involved here. It's about
| those with power, those without. Slavery can be understood
| best by how the powerful behave, not the powerless. No one
| would volunteer for this or prisoners wouldn't have to be
| forced to do it.
|
| I'm always disappointed that the lessons of slavery still
| aren't understood in this country. It's painful and shameful.
|
| EDIT: clarity of terms
| pphysch wrote:
| Both media sources rely on speculation from one individual,
| so why not just link that shared source?
| tyrfing wrote:
| You've made about 20 comments in this thread, mostly
| demanding sources and then dismissing those sources with
| vague ad-hominem and making zero attempt to engage with the
| substance of any claims.
|
| Since you seem to be very well educated on this topic, can
| you share your sources? I'm eager to read them.
| pphysch wrote:
| My understanding of the "Xinjiang issue" is that Xinjiang
| has a complex history of separatism & violent terrorism
| (see Urumqi attacks). Beijing implemented a
| counterterrorism program in the last decade or two,
| alongside other initiatives such as comprehensive anti-
| poverty campaigns. Broadly these programs have the same
| goal of stabilizing the region, its economy, its
| politics, its people, and overall they have been
| successful.
|
| Recognizing China as a competitor on an unchecked rise,
| Washington "pivoted" its foreign policy on China towards
| antagonism at the beginning of the Obama admin. [1]
|
| This resulted in a number of related attempts to
| internally destabilize China and loosen the dominance of
| the Communist Party, ideally leading to a Chinese regime
| that is submissive to Washington's demands (as occurred
| recently in India, Ukraine, Brazil and many other
| historical cases). Otherwise, China could very well
| surpass the USA as the most powerful nation on Earth.
|
| Among those attempts is a fierce propaganda initiative,
| which takes any controversial issue related to China and
| warps it beyond recognition, with the goal of demonizing
| the Communist Party. Xinjiang, Hong Kong, COVID-19,
| Taiwan are among the extremely propagandized topics in
| circulation.
|
| It is virtually impossible to get a fact-based
| perspective on these issues from mainstream Western
| media, because _that is not their goal_. If a mainstream
| Western outlet attempts to portray China in a neutral
| /positive, fact-based light, then they risk
| repercussions. For example, the illuminating PBS
| documentary entitled "China's War on Poverty" was removed
| from the airwaves in USA [2] citing "funding" concerns.
| Any attempt to deviate from official media policy on
| China could be labeled a "national security risk" and
| compromise major media corporation's access to funding
| and other opportunities. Simply not worth the risk (see
| Parenti's or Chomsky's "propaganda model").
|
| Meanwhile, extremely dubious "reporting" that furthers
| this foreign policy agenda is amplified to incredible
| extents. This is how virtually all "China bad" stories
| end up tracing their origins from a relatively tiny
| inbred clique of Washington D.C.-based ideologues/think
| tanks/"human rights" groups, ETIM separatists, Falun Gong
| cultists, and weapons manufacturers who stand to profit
| enormously from the "China Threat" theory. Everyone else
| is directly or indirectly shut out.
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_foreign_po
| licy_of_t...
|
| [2] - https://current.org/2020/05/after-pbs-drops-film-
| pbs-socal-r...
| ilamont wrote:
| One source? There are multiple sources, including
| eyewitness accounts, reports from Chinese and Uyghur
| exiles, western experts, and even satellite imagery:
|
| _" The findings of this research contradict Chinese
| officials' claims that all 'trainees' from so-called
| vocational training [centers] had 'graduated' by late
| 2019," report author Nathan Ruser wrote. "Instead,
| available evidence suggests that many extrajudicial
| detainees in Xinjiang's vast 're-education' network are now
| being formally charged and locked up in higher security
| facilities, including newly built or expanded prisons, or
| sent to walled factory compounds for coerced [labor]
| assignments."_
|
| https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916665128/report-satellite-
| im...
| pphysch wrote:
| Okay, so far you've linked Adrian Zenz and Raytheon-
| mouthpiece ASPI.
|
| Is it really so much to ask for a source that doesn't
| have an obvious and massive Conflict of Interest in
| destabilizing China?
| nosianu wrote:
| > _have an obvious and massive Conflict of Interest in
| destabilizing China?_
|
| If only you would apply what you demand of others to your
| own brazen statements.
| pphysch wrote:
| Rigorous, fact-based scrutiny is "brazen"? Ridiculous. Is
| this Reddit, or HN?
|
| Please stay on topic: where are your _primary_ sources
| that don 't have a massive Conflict of Interest? It's
| okay to admit you don't have any.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| He'll post the source of both claims when it's time for the
| Rapture.
| pphysch wrote:
| Is there a single large economy that _doesn 't_ prohibit forced
| prison labor? I can't find one.
| sofixa wrote:
| Care to name which ones do? China, US, probably Russia? Who
| else?
| pphysch wrote:
| US, Germany, Russia, Brazil, China, India, etc.
|
| The truth is that giving convicted prisoners opportunities
| to work is probably a big net positive. I'm sure plenty of
| them would work for pennies rather than rot in a cell.
|
| The root of the problem is if there is injustice in
| sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work
| itself. But that requires far more investigation to
| establish than pearl-clutching about the universal practice
| of "forced labor".
|
| But if there is a legit criminal behind bars, I would like
| to hear reasons why they shouldn't be able to work in a
| highly controlled, safe workplace.
| maxmamis wrote:
| > The root of the problem is if there is injustice in
| sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work
| itself.
|
| lol what? they're in a cage guarded by men with guns.
| what about that could possibly be anything other than
| "coercive?"
| pphysch wrote:
| Yeah, prisons generally have armed guards.
| Pamar wrote:
| "Coercitive" would be something like "you make N license
| plate a day or don't get food".
|
| "If you accept to do non-mandatory work in exchange of
| money/reduced sentence" it will be your choice.
| maxmamis wrote:
| another way to rephrase that is "if you choose not to
| work, you will stay in prison for longer." sounds pretty
| coercive to me!
| Pamar wrote:
| Not longer that your original sentence though.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| I think they should be able to work if they want.
|
| I just don't want private entities profiting off
| prisoners our taxes house.
| pphysch wrote:
| I agree completely. Any prison labor programs should be
| entirely in the public sector.
| wombatpm wrote:
| A d pay the federal minimum wage
| [deleted]
| ncallaway wrote:
| > The truth is that giving convicted prisoners
| opportunities to work is probably a big net positive.
|
| The fact that you used the word "opportunities" to
| described "forced" really demonstrates the problem with
| the line of reasoning used to justify forced labor.
|
| Forced labor is wrong. Always. Period.
|
| > I would like to hear reasons why they shouldn't be able
| to work in a highly controlled, safe workplace.
|
| Sure, if someone is in prison they should be _able_ to
| work. They should have the _choice_ to work. As soon as
| the labor is forced, then it is unacceptable, immoral,
| and anyone defending it is wrong.
| adewinter wrote:
| > than pearl-clutching about the universal practice of
| "forced labor".
|
| So it's because everyone does it that it's "ok", then?
|
| Or because _you_ think it 's better than "rotting in a
| cell"?
|
| Whatever man. The issue is that the labour is _forced_.
| Give prisoners a choice to work or not and pay them, at
| market value, for their work.
|
| If you're against choice and pay for prisoners you really
| shouldn't be embarrassed to just go ahead and call it
| what it is: slavery.
| pphysch wrote:
| The allegation that Xinjiang has prisons and are allowing
| prisoners to work is almost certainly true. Like
| virtually every other major economy.
|
| The allegation that the Xinjiang prisoners are actually
| innocent people being ethnically/religiously cleansed and
| forced into slavery has extremely little basis in
| reality, relying completely on claims from a tiny,
| unaccountable clique of Washington DC based ideologues
| (Zenz, et al) and ETIM lobbyists (WUC, et al).
|
| However, the article deceptively uses the banal truth of
| the first allegation as a vehicle to imply that truth of
| the second, far more extreme allegation. These are
| classic disinformation methods employed to achieve
| political agendas.
| random314 wrote:
| Entire university department professors have been wiped
| out and sent to prison
| https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf
| pphysch wrote:
| ...According to Radio Free Asia, a literal propaganda arm
| of the US Government. Yawn.
| [deleted]
| kaesar14 wrote:
| They should be paid market rate for their labor. Why
| should prison take away your basic financial rights.
|
| Edit: it's disgusting to me that anyone downvoted this.
| what do you believe, if not that people have a right to
| the fruits of their labor, even as criminals? believing
| otherwise is believing in slavery and exploitation.
| willcipriano wrote:
| It shouldn't also take away from the rights of others.
| When prison labor is obtained below minimum wage, or
| under conditions or terms that workers would not accept,
| you hurt low income workers and drive down their wages in
| aggregate.
|
| In my opinion, prison labor should only be used for
| public works. Cleaning up parks and that sort of thing.
| Giving a captive labor stream to private enterprise is
| only good for the owners of the select few firms who can
| take advantage of it.
| adewinter wrote:
| I agree with the sentiment but it should be pointed out
| that even public works have to pay their workers at
| market rates when there are no forced laborers (so: most
| of the time). Throwing a bunch of forced laborers at
| public works kind of screws over the average Joe that
| used to do that for pay.
|
| So, like you say, it shouldn't take away from the rights
| of others. Just pay the prisoners just like you'd pay any
| other worker regardless of the kind of job.
| dang wrote:
| You started a hellish flamewar with this comment. Obviously the
| topics are serious but internet flamewars about these things
| are profoundly unserious and not what this site is for. Please
| take more care in the future, and please use HN in the intended
| spirit of thoughtful, curious conversation.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| We've detached this subthread from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28644625.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _You started a hellish flamewar with this comment._
|
| Well, it's clear after the fact, but that was not
| intentional. You have way more experience monitoring and
| tracking these threads and therefore predicting what will
| probably happen than any of the rest of us. I do think it's
| hypocritical for a government to impose sanctions for doing
| something (forced prisoner labor) that that government also
| does with its own prisoners. It would be nice if we could
| have an honest discussion about our carceral state without
| people repeatedly leaning into the idea that "convicted of
| crime"="deserves what they get, but only here and not there".
| But I understand that there are clearly now many greyed
| comments under here, so I don't fault you for separating the
| thread. And I can't predict that it won't happen again, but
| I'm sorry about bringing what this thread became to your
| doorstep.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| This is an interesting article. It also makes me think that this
| kind of analysis presents a lot of opportunities.
|
| Take for example the Chinese beef being labeled as premium New
| Zealand beef and sold for much higher prices in supermarkets. If
| shoppers can't tell the difference without this analysis, then it
| implies that the price differential between these two products is
| larger than it should be.
|
| That specific Chinese beef producer is likely selling his product
| to a wholesaler at a standard (low) price. It is somewhere else
| in the supply chain that the mislabeling comes in - and that is
| the entity that makes the profit. If that beef producer was aware
| that his beef is selling at a much higher retail price, then he
| should be selling his product to the wholesaler at a much higher
| price. What prevents this from happening? Well, knowledge (and a
| marketing budget). There should be plenty of capital available to
| solve that problem :)
| fay59 wrote:
| Meat produced in New Zealand might be more sustainable, or
| ethically farmed, or have a smaller environmental
| transportation footprint if you're in New Zealand, than meat
| from somewhere else. People paying premium for meat may be
| interested in all of these things--in fact, they may be
| interested in these things even over the taste of the meat.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > If shoppers can't tell the difference without this analysis,
| then it implies that the price differential between these two
| products is larger than it should be.
|
| But their bodies might.
|
| Standards for meat are much higher in New Zealand than in
| China. I would be curious to have a health inspector take a
| look at the facilities where the beef was produced and
| handled...
|
| Let's just say the country isn't new to food safety scandals...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com.au/chinese-street-vendors-us...
| stickfigure wrote:
| The quality of natural products like beef is probabilistic. You
| might not be able to tell a poor example of a premium product
| from a good example of a low-end brand. And if you buy
| infrequently, you might not know what you're missing.
|
| Just because the scam works doesn't mean there isn't a
| perceptible difference.
| runsWphotons wrote:
| I don't think it's true it implies the price differential is
| wrong. Just because you can't tell the difference by consuming
| it, it doesn't mean there is no difference you should care
| about.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| In a lot of cases we can taste the difference. Organic vs.
| conventional chicken has a different mouthfeel. And Wagyu Beef
| vs. regular beef also has a similar different feel.
|
| However I also buy free-range organic eggs and milk. I'd have
| no idea if those products were mislabeled. But it also makes me
| feel better I'm not contributing to cruel factory farming and
| antibiotic abuse. If that's not the case, oh well. I did all I
| could reasonably do aside from going vegan.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| You can't pass off non-Wagyu beef as Wagyu beef unless the
| consumer doesn't know what Wagyu beef is.
|
| I totally disagree with the organic vs conventional chicken
| argument. I would suggest that the difference you notice is
| the breed of the chicken.
|
| Organic vs non-organic and free-range vs non-free-range is
| not something where you'd say that there is an information
| arbitrage opportunity. The concept was that this analysis
| could be used to identify opportunity, not that every single
| instance of label fraud was an opportunity. Sheesh.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| You could very well be right about chicken breeds. I never
| thought about different breeds tasting different. I know
| there are super-sized industrial ones which taste horrible.
| But what are good small chicken breeds? And would a
| fancy/organic supermarket butcher be a good source for
| this?
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| Those are good questions and I don't know that I can give
| you good answers. I think the answer would be yes about
| the butcher.
|
| I just moved out to the "country" and might raise some
| chickens myself. If so, I'll be doing some research into
| the breeds that have the best flavor.
| dkarl wrote:
| It could also be the brine pumped into the non-organic
| chicken. I don't know if pumping brine into chicken affects
| its organic status or not, but the organic chickens I see
| at the store do not have brine or chicken broth listed as
| ingredients, while the non-organic ones do.
| pjc50 wrote:
| > If that beef producer was aware that his beef is selling at a
| much higher retail price, then he should be selling his product
| to the wholesaler at a much higher price
|
| You can't be a retail beef producer in China boldly claiming to
| produce New Zealand beef. The value-enhancing fraud has to
| happen a bit higher up the chain.
|
| > If shoppers can't tell the difference without this analysis
|
| Provenance matters even if the difference is undetectable.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| I can't tell the difference between leaded and unleaded gas. So
| it shouldn't matter if I use leaded gas.
| mabub24 wrote:
| > If shoppers can't tell the difference without this analysis,
| then it implies that the price differential between these two
| products is larger than it should be.
|
| Or that the shopper has misplaced trust in the seller/grocery
| store.
| rapjr9 wrote:
| From the article: "If the elements in the soil and water of a
| region work their way into the plants grown there, they also work
| their way into our bodies when we eat the produce of those
| plants, or when we eat the meat of animals fed on those plants.
| We ingest these elements, process them, and use them to build
| flesh, teeth and bones. So the elements making up our bodies can
| tell us something about the food we've eaten and the land that
| supports us."
|
| Seems like the same idea would apply to regional differences in
| health including mental health. An obvious one would be if the
| land is high in lead, the people living on it might be more
| violent. Areas with oil wells are likely affecting air and food
| quality. Maybe areas with a lot of lithium result in happier
| people. Western medicine has largely ignored environmental
| effects. A map of background radiation levels across the world
| might have an interesting health story to tell as could multi-
| spectral satellite imagery. Oritain might be sitting on a wealth
| of very useful health data, unaware of it.
| kiklion wrote:
| > Western medicine has largely ignored environmental effects.
|
| I wouldn't say they ignored it, instead environmental effects
| aren't in scope to medicine. If your doctor said 'you live on
| Long Island so you have a higher chance of breast cancer,
| combined with your family history, I advise you to sell
| everything and move your family.' The vast majority of people
| are going yo ignore that.
|
| Even if you have the means to move, your doctor can't quantify
| your local ties and relationships in a meaningful way to
| determine if increased risks from the environment are worth it.
| Animats wrote:
| I want UL certification fraud investigation. Someone should be
| buying random phone chargers, e-bike batteries, and scooters, and
| running them through the usual tests. If the certifications are
| fake, someone should go to jail.
| nitwit005 wrote:
| Clearly, the next step is to create a fake origin tracing firm.
| ilamont wrote:
| _Just over a year ago, at least two textile and fiber watchdogs
| faced scrutiny for their links to the Xinjiang Production and
| Construction Corps (XPCC), a quasi-military organization that
| the U.S. government sanctioned in 2020 due to its role in
| operating mass internment camps and using forced labor in
| cotton fields._
|
| https://www.axios.com/global-textile-watchdogs-struggled-in-...
| pphysch wrote:
| Sources: Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian, Darren Byler, and Adrian
| Zenz.
|
| This should be hilarious to anyone who has been scrutinizing
| the Xinjiang narratives closely.
| [deleted]
| ilamont wrote:
| _This should be hilarious to anyone who has been
| scrutinizing the Xinjiang narratives closely._
|
| "Hilarious" is not the reaction that comes to mind.
| pphysch wrote:
| I think it is, just like I would e.g. characterize an
| article that sources Mike Pompeo as a neutral expert on
| Iran as hilariously unserious.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| That implies a whole other set of dirty tricks available - not
| only "laundering" products but using it to libel competitors or
| as a protection racket of sorts. Fungible commodities are a
| very awkward thing to differentiate, much less trace and
| proving that there is no basis is hard, especially if there are
| other counterfeit packagers.
|
| If "Foo Fish" really uses only Pacific Cod but I find a package
| with Atlantic Cod printed and packed identically how can you
| prove a disregard for the truth or bad intentions in saying
| "Foo Fish contains lying mislabeled fish?" I sourced the fish
| from this store from this wholesaler with the same packaging.
|
| Introducing PPKI could technically help but would be a
| logistical nightmare and vulnerable to copying.
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