[HN Gopher] Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/stand...
___________________________________________________________________
Do not leave XPS laptop in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when
placed in a bag
Author : bestouff
Score : 762 points
Date : 2021-09-24 08:39 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.dell.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.dell.com)
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Dell service quality is getting down.
|
| Warranty is something they were proud of.
|
| Now, it's just came an absurdly inefficient, frustrating, and
| wasteful experience.
|
| I have an XPS 2-in-1. Nice machine, except for the so-so battery
| life and the unsupported webcam on linux, it was a good working
| laptop.
|
| I paid for the biggest config at the time, and included a $300
| premium guarantee with on site servicing.
|
| One year later, the keyboard starts acting up, then the touch
| pad.
|
| I contacted their support, and while the people on the phone were
| polite and competent (!), their ludicrous booking system to get a
| person on site to change my keyboard was a nightmare.
|
| Took me a month of frustrating cat and mouse game to finally get
| someone at my door.
|
| They changed my keyboard (and for some reason my speakers and
| battery O_o), routine stuff. "No need to do a backup for that",
| they said.
|
| Took them 3 hours. They were operating blind, no manual, no spec,
| no pictures taken before removing parts.
|
| Of course, once done, the machine would not boot anymore. Also
| the touch pad stopped working completely (tested in the UEFI).
|
| They let me with an unusable machine and left. This was my main
| working machine. Thankfully, I haven't listen to them and did my
| homework, I had 2 full data backup and a fallback laptop, albeit
| way less appropriate for my freelancing missions.
|
| One month and dozens of phone calls+emails later, they come back.
| Change the whole thing again. Machine is still FUBAR.
|
| They leave again.
|
| 2 weeks later, support contacted me to offer me an exchange with
| a brand new laptop (remember, I didn't need a backup). They
| should take an appointment in 48 hours.
|
| I'm still waiting as of today, no appointment email, a broken
| laptop, doing work on a machine were I have to kill the browser
| regularly because it swaps, doing web dev.
|
| All the staff were nice, but their process, boy, their process
| sucks.
|
| The worst thing is, it's probably made to avoid some kind of
| abuse of the system or to save money, but they spent to much time
| with me they wasted tons of cash, and end up replacing my machine
| anyway.
|
| Everybody loose with a service like that.
|
| If people are still wondering why the framework laptop is
| appealing, there it is. I know what my next machine will be now.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > I contacted their support, and while the people on the phone
| were polite and competent (!)
|
| I contacted Dell support recently when my new laptop didn't
| send an image to my (Dell) external monitor.
|
| The support guy asked me what cable I was using. It's
| DisplayPort on the monitor end and Thunderbolt USB-C on the
| laptop end. It works with the Dell laptop the recent one
| replaced.
|
| The support guy proceeded to look up the new laptop's product
| page on Dell's public website, see language saying that for the
| Thunderbolt port to work with DisplayPort, you need to buy an
| adapter, and recommend that I buy a USB-C to MiniDP adapter. It
| was left unexplained how I would plug my USB-C Thunderbolt
| cable into the MiniDP adapter.
|
| I wouldn't trust Dell support to know how to put on pants.
| mwexler wrote:
| Have we really evolved to the state that laptop portability is an
| extra feature and not part of the design criteria for the modern
| laptop? That the sleep capability of laptops, present in various
| forms since the 90s, should no longer be used even though it's
| the default when the lid is closed?
|
| I've been a fan of Dell for many years, against so much evidence
| of what a joke they've become, but this issue may finally tip me
| over the edge.
|
| Any name brand PCs you trust to buy for family members who want a
| name brand and the perceived value that provides? (Besides Apple,
| I guess).
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Any name brand PCs you trust to buy for family members who
| want a name brand and the perceived value that provides?
| (Besides Apple, I guess)._
|
| It feels like you might've answered your own question. For
| better or worse, most of this kind of stuff "just works" in the
| Apple ecosystem.
| salamandersauce wrote:
| I've had my 2018 MBP either fail to go to sleep correctly or
| wake up during sleep twice while in a bag. When I got home it
| was blazing hot. I'm not alone in this, you can see threads
| of people reporting similar things on Apple's support forums
| or even in this thread. Apple isn't immune to this either.
| guax wrote:
| Oh, come on, sleep and hibernation are the "shut down" of a
| laptop nowadays, you close the lid and shove it into the bag. Its
| just as absurd as saying you cant put the phone in your pocket
| unless you fully turn it off.
| tinus_hn wrote:
| You're not really supposed to bring a phone that close to your
| skin, otherwise you might exceed safe radiation levels.
| tinus_hn wrote:
| Amusing to see all the armchair experts denying this. Now
| take your iPhone, start the Settings app, go to General/Legal
| & Regulatory/RF exposure and read the text.
|
| You're not supposed to keep your phone directly against your
| skin.
| quantumsequoia wrote:
| [citation needed]
| king_magic wrote:
| That is simple not how non-ionizing radiation works.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Found the guy that holds the phone a bit from their face and
| talks into the edge like it's a sandwich
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| My home-built PC will never stay asleep, so I have to shut it
| off. I don't get it.
| PeterisP wrote:
| If the laptop cannot be carried with the sleep/hibernate/standby,
| then it does not have a functioning sleep/hibernate/standby and
| is not fit for use as a laptop, so it was sold as defective and
| should be replaced with a working laptop at the manufacturer's
| expense.
| Damogran6 wrote:
| And here I just thought it was a crappy BIOS...many is the time
| I've undocked, thrown it in the messenger bag, then pulled it out
| at another location only to have it roasting with the fan on
| full.
|
| So, sleep isn't sleep apparently
| godmode2019 wrote:
| I have a XPS with Linux, closing the lid does almost nothing but
| turn the screenlock on.
|
| I always turn it off, reboot is in 2/seconds so it's no problem.
|
| Great laptop, had it for 7 years still faster than 2020 XPS with
| windows.
| jessaustin wrote:
| Yeah windows boot (realistically, wakeup too) has become
| ridiculously time-consuming on the few desktops I maintain that
| have to be windows. If I hadn't already switched everything
| else I control to Linux, boot time itself would be enough to
| motivate that.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| That's just misconfigured then. The system sends a signal to
| the OS. The OS is then free to do whatever. If you have
| configured to screenlock then it will screenlock.
| RGamma wrote:
| Clickbaity title. It says
|
| > Under no circumstances should you leave a laptop powered on and
| in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag,
| backpack, or in an overhead bin. The PC will overheat as a result
| of that action. Any resulting damage will not be covered by the
| Dell warranty.
|
| Now how a hibernated laptop could overheat..
| dang wrote:
| Submitted title was "Putting a DELL XPS laptop in a bag voids
| its warranty". We've changed it to a shortened version of what
| you quoted. Thanks!
| ecf wrote:
| I leave my MacBook's lid closed for a week and I can open it to
| maybe 5% battery drain.
|
| The article should explicitly state...
|
| > Under no circumstances should you leave a _Windows_ laptop in
| any sleep /hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag
|
| ...because other, more competent, manufacturers have figured
| this out. Windows and their OEMs simply suck, there is no
| sugarcoating it.
| css wrote:
| The page has been edited and no longer mentions warranty at
| all.
| undecisive wrote:
| Reminds me of the push a while back to rebrand laptops as
| "notebooks" - because many laptops (esp Dell XPS) are not built
| with a strong enough backbone to keep their own weight from
| sagging in the middle, and because they get hot enough to cause
| damage to legs.
|
| I have had an XPS since 2017, it had everything I wanted (I
| thought) - but I seriously regretted the decision almost
| immediately. High-intensity tasks (gaming, TDD, etc) would cause
| it to conk out from overheating because they hadn't configured
| the bios correctly - spent hours with various levels of Dell
| support trying to get it fixed, with them installing various
| combinations of different versions of the bios firmware. The GPU
| setup wasn't quite as straightforward as it could have been
| (which isn't really Dell's problem I guess - if I was running
| windows, it might not have been a problem at all)
|
| Nowadays, the base of the laptop has bowed, causing the trackpad
| to unglue and jut out at an angle. I have a massive mark on my
| screen where I once tried to shut my laptop normally - I still
| have to take it places, and to do that I sandwich a piece of
| polystyrene in it to protect the screen. I hope this is warped
| due to heat and not the battery bowing, but I'm burying my head
| in the sand on that one. And yes, I have to shut it down every
| time I transport it.
|
| Thankfully, once I have the funds available, I know what laptop
| I'm getting next. And it won't be a dell.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Nowadays, the base of the laptop has bowed, causing the
| trackpad to unglue and jut out at an angle.
|
| I don't think that's coming from the laptop sagging. They're
| pretty rigid. I think your battery has swollen.
|
| But fret not, it's "factory-replaceable".
|
| There's another modern trend with what appears to be no
| justification.
| Majestic121 wrote:
| It's really not hard to replace the battery yourself, no need
| to send it back to factory.
|
| But you do have the option if you don't want to do it
| yourself nor go to a repair shop
| undecisive wrote:
| I suspect you are absolutely right!
| Majestic121 wrote:
| I had the exact same issue (base of the laptop bowing because
| the battery is swollen, the trackpad was almost coming out) :
| it's actually pretty straightforward to replace the battery
| yourself.
|
| Unscrew something like 8 standard screw, replace the battery,
| rescrew.
|
| If you don't have any tools at home and are not sure what
| battery to buy : https://eustore.ifixit.com/products/dell-
| xps-15-9550-and-551...
| Avalaxy wrote:
| > I know what laptop I'm getting next. And it won't be a dell.
|
| Tell me about these greener pastures!
| undecisive wrote:
| I think I'm gonna go for one of these: https://frame.work
|
| Pretty unproven pastures, but have heard nothing but good
| reports. Worst thing I've seen said is the audio bass was a
| bit underwhelming!
| zxcvbn4038 wrote:
| Dells were the only laptops I ever encountered that you could
| bend. It's amazing anyone other then starving college kids ever
| used them.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Older Siemens-Fujitsu ones did, too. Consumer grade ones, so.
| The main reason I went to the "professional" ones over a
| decade ago. Hell, who doesn't carry around his open laptop on
| one corner from time to time?
| zokier wrote:
| I have Thinkpad (x230 iirc) that reliably crashes if you lift
| it up from one side only.
| hexo wrote:
| My X240 started to crash a year ago when i lift it up from
| left side only, right side is ok
| Macha wrote:
| If was certainly the norm for laptops in the EUR500-700 range
| from the late 00s to at least a few years ago. Happened to
| the Acer laptop I used in my college days
| jefftk wrote:
| _> the push a while back to rebrand laptops as "notebooks" -
| because many laptops (esp Dell XPS) are not built with a strong
| enough backbone to keep their own weight from sagging in the
| middle, and because they get hot enough to cause damage to
| legs._
|
| This wasn't a rebranding, it was a category of laptop. Cheap,
| small, and light, designed for people who intended to offload
| many local functions to the cloud. --
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook
|
| Faded away as a term once this became the default thing to do.
| bsdubernerd wrote:
| This is not exclusive to Dell.
|
| Many laptop makers started to intentionally disable S3 for the
| "enhanced" S2. This was/is true of Lenovo as well: for roughly 6
| months S3 was disabled completely on the then-new 3rd generation
| Yoga X1 laptops and Carbon counterparts. It was re-enabled thanks
| to linux user's uproar under the "legacy sleep mode" umbrella.
|
| Why would you go as far as disabling it, is beyond me. S3 is the
| sleep mode I expect on a laptop. S2 sounds useful for
| tablet/phone behavior.
|
| Hibernation doesn't of course suffer from this issue, and I never
| experienced this on any laptop with S3 sleep.
|
| Of course, if you shut down your laptop and put it immediately in
| a bag, temperature will raise temporarily even if the system is
| off due to the inability to dissipate heat. You should be aware
| of this, and avoid immediately bagging the laptop just after
| rebuilding the kernel ;)
| Tsarbomb wrote:
| It's not like the laptop generates any heat once you turn it
| off. It's more like its not vented out and is absorbed by other
| components that normally do not get warm. The total heat is not
| any greater.
| eitland wrote:
| The whole idea of sleep is so we can put it in a bag, walk
| somewhere else, take it out and continue working.
|
| If this doesn't work on a mainstream product it is defective in
| my opinion.
| ChymeraXYZ wrote:
| Odd, how installing linux solves the issue... (speaking from
| personal experience with 3 different XPSs)
| Pxtl wrote:
| I had to bust out the PowerShell console on my windows machine to
| manipulate its wake sources to block it from waking on LAN since
| something would wake it within 10 minutes after sleep every time.
|
| I can't imagine how infuriating that would be if it were a laptop
| and that behavior was running down the battery and heating it up.
| vjancik wrote:
| As an owner of XPS 15 9560, I can tell you that the XPS line is a
| gift that keeps giving. 6 generations of XPS laptops since 2021
| and they barely fixed most of the overheating issues in that time
| period, while charging premium prices for each barely-functioning
| product along the way.
| julianlam wrote:
| My first XPS had a fun little design quirk where the laptop
| display itself obstructed the (single and only) exhaust vent.
|
| Out of the factory, the airflow was acceptable, but after a
| year of use and dust buildup, guess what... the laptop would
| overheat!
|
| Double whammy -- the air that _could_ get through was so hot
| that it would also deform the part of the screen that
| obstructed the vent.
| rooprob wrote:
| 2020 XPS 9310 user here. Running Linux on the Windows edition of
| this laptop, with the killer wifi ath11k QCA6390.
|
| Wifi: I'm now on Linux 5.14.3 and have been chasing latest
| kernels all year for wifi support - this is now all good for this
| edition of the laptop.
|
| Sleep: Running hot in sleep, would always be flat in the morning
| etc.
|
| As others have pointed out, there are infrequent issues where
| rewakening doesn't completely - blank screen, necessitating hard
| power off.
|
| However sleep/resume are much better - to the point of acceptable
| - after switching to AHCI disk setup in the bios.
|
| https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211879#c24
|
| Switching bios disk from RAID to AHCI allows the machine to reach
| C10.
| JonyEpsilon wrote:
| I have an XPS 9500 and have found this infuriating.
|
| I think there's two separate things going on:
|
| As others have noted, S3 sleep isn't supported, only S1 "sleep to
| idle" sleep. But I don't think this is the direct cause of the
| overheating. In S1 sleep, the laptop can average something like
| 900mW of power usage, which is enough to annoyingly knock a few
| percent off your battery overnight, but not enough to make the
| laptop warm, even in a bag.
|
| The seems to be a second problem, specific to Windows, that when
| in S1 sleep sometimes the power consumption is high (of order
| 10W), and this causes the laptop to get very hot if not well
| ventilated. I've never been able to figure out if this Windows
| actually doing something useful in "modern standby" like Windows
| Update, or whether it's a bug. Edit: And I should add, it's crazy
| that there's not a way to disable this if it is doing something
| "useful".
|
| Either way, under Linux the latter doesn't happen, and the laptop
| sleeps very cool ... just with the annoying "lose 5% of your
| battery overnight" problem from sleeping in S1.
| sillystuff wrote:
| See if cat /sys/power/mem_sleep returns [s2idle] deep
|
| You want it to return [deep] s2idle
|
| Adding something like, /etc/sysfs.d/set-sleep-to-s2ram.conf:
| power/mem_sleep=deep
|
| (The above requires the package 'sysfsutils' to be installed on
| Debian / Debian derived distributions).
|
| On my work supplied xps-13, bluetooth does not survive the
| laptop being unplugged in "deep" sleep (even for a couple
| seconds). Fixing bluetooth requires suspend to disk aka
| "hibernate" or regular reboot to restore. No reloading modules
| etc. helps. Other than that annoying bug, proper sleep works
| fine on the hardware.
|
| But, I also had to add, /etc/modprobe.d/i915gpu-fix-
| xps13-crashes.conf: options i915
| enable_guc_loading=1 enable_guc_submission=1
|
| To solve the laptop crashing when idle. Originally I disabled
| c-states on the gpu to fix the crashing, but some other kind
| soul on the Internet shared the above which solves the
| crashing, but doesn't kill battery life like my fix.
| qyv wrote:
| You can force modern standby to disconnect from networks
| (connected standby vs. disconnected standby). This helps with
| stopping the system from waking up randomly.
|
| https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/146593-enable-disable-ne...
| bestouff wrote:
| I have an XPS 9500 under Linux (this is a >$4000 machine), no
| amount of fiddling with BIOS settings (which are few) or
| systemd/GNOME settings will make it work reliably:
|
| - short suspend time (it can't really stay overnight when
| suspended with a full battery)
|
| - sometimes it wakes up and overheats in the bag
|
| - very short battery duration when unplugged
|
| Apparently I'm not alone, and even under Windows it's a
| generalized problem; and when you look for solution on Dell's
| forum you find this FAQ, which tend to say XPS are more
| foldable desktops than real laptops.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Did you try installing the Dell apt repository and drivers
| plus tlp?
| adamcstephens wrote:
| Have you tried setting mem_sleep to deep? This helped on my
| Thinkpad until I got a new enough kernel that allowed the
| system to fully enter C10 state.
|
| https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-
| guide/pm/sleep-...
|
| And if you want to dig into what happening in s2idle,
| https://01.org/blogs/qwang59/2018/how-achieve-s0ix-states-
| li...
| JonyEpsilon wrote:
| I've tried that and while the laptop sleeps, I wasn't able
| to get it to wake up again. Which of course undermines the
| utility of it sleeping quite a bit :-) I didn't persist too
| much with it, so it's quite possible that one can make it
| work ... but from what I read when I was trying it, it
| might well be the case that BIOS support for S3 sleep just
| isn't there.
| lerela wrote:
| On the latest XPS that's not even an option:
| https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/Ubuntu-deep-sleep-
| missing...
|
| (I've just seen the last posts on that thread and will give
| it a try)
| lerela wrote:
| I have an high-end XPS 13 from 2020 (9310), allegedly with
| native Linux support, and have the exact same issues.
|
| My previous XPS 13 from 2016 was suspending properly but now
| I cannot suspend my "laptop" for more than a day (it will
| die) or store it in a bag (it will become lava). Hibernate
| does not work either.
|
| I'm learning with this thread that it also happens on Windows
| and I'm struggling to understand how Dell could decide to
| sell "laptops" at this price and not test one of the most
| basic features of a laptop.
| rooprob wrote:
| Switch to AHCI fixed C10 sleep for me in Linux,
|
| https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211879#c24
|
| I'm running 9310 with linux kernel 5.14.3 for the QCA6390
| support as my laptop is the Windows edition.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| I'm still rocking mine from 2016. It's been a stellar
| little linux laptop. Hopefully this gets sorted before I
| have to upgrade but I'm really good at stretching hardware
| on linux.
| lerela wrote:
| Only reason I upgraded was to get 32GB of RAM. So far,
| it's underwhelming...
| deaddodo wrote:
| I did the same, but I actually utilize this much RAM
| regularly.
| chippiewill wrote:
| Yep, the XPS 9500 and 9700 series with a discrete GPU cannot
| to s3 sleep.
|
| It's because Intel have been incrementally removing support
| for s3 sleep, it's completely gone in the latest Tigerlake
| chips.
|
| Linux s2idle support for modern Intel low CPU package power
| states is still pretty rough which is why you'll get a good
| chunk of power drain still.
| worldmerge wrote:
| I also have a 9500. I'm considering selling it, the hardware is
| just so buggy.
|
| If I do I'll probably buy a framework laptop.
| RileyJames wrote:
| Looking to update an older XPS. Seriously considering a
| framework, but might just buy a desktop considering I spend
| 90% of real dev work in the same spot with a 4K.
| 45ure wrote:
| >I've never been able to figure out if this Windows actually
| doing something useful in "modern standby" like Windows Update,
| or whether it's a bug.
|
| I asked a very similar question a few months ago. The
| sleep/standby modes were behaving as other people have
| reported, however, the fact that the battery was draining
| rapidly in shutdown mode, on a new Dell with a 3 month-old
| battery with very few cycles, was a cause for concern.
| Nevertheless, I tried using the CsEnabled trick, which didn't
| work. Eventually, after troubleshooting BIOS features, applying
| the latest updates and using powercfg options -- batteryreport,
| sleepstudy etc.
|
| I found a solution, which is a compromise at best. The battery
| drain was 20% within a few hours. But now with S3 sleep state
| -- it drains around 8-10% in full shutdown mode over a period
| of 8-10 hours. A similar drain in Standby is over a period of
| 15-18 hours.
|
| https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10...
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/Dell/comments/h0r56s/getting_back_s...
| julianlam wrote:
| > just with the annoying "lose 5% of your battery overnight"
| problem from sleeping in S1.
|
| Just 5% would be manageable -- I probably wouldn't even notice
| it. It's more on the order or 20-30% for me, so if I happen to
| not use my laptop over the weekend, I'll come back to a
| completely dead laptop.
|
| A couple times, I've opened the laptop to have it scream at me
| to plug it in ASAP.
|
| It's frustrating when you put a completely charged laptop to
| bed and can't get going without having to hunt for a power
| cord.
| lmilcin wrote:
| I just can't understand how people put up with not being able
| to control what they primary machines are doing.
|
| For that reason my primary work machine can currently only be
| Linux. I have Windows, but this one is only for stuff that is
| incompatible with Linux.
|
| I actually have Linux PC and a separate Linux laptop (Thinkpad
| T440s).
|
| That laptop runs super cool once I debugged all the sources of
| power usage. Which is quite easy on Linux but neigh impossible
| on Windows.
| mikro2nd wrote:
| neigh: what horsies say
|
| nigh: near, nearly
| lmilcin wrote:
| Thanks. I wasn't aware. English isn't my native language.
| contingencies wrote:
| nay: unless, of course, the force of course is the famous
| grandparent
|
| 2c: Had an XPS15 die the other day, won't buy another. Also
| sworn off Apple hardware. Using Lenovo laptop. All good.
| vjust wrote:
| Agreed. Every time I tried windows it was the same set of
| frustrating behaviors. Linux helps but needs some tinkering.
| My first step on a new laptop would be to wipe clean and
| install Linux.
| taneq wrote:
| I hate it too. I'm not just saying that, I ran Linux as my
| only desktop for 3 years and exclusively AOSP phones for over
| 4.
|
| Ultimately, however, some of us have stuff to do and can't
| spend our entire time tinkering to maintain basic
| functionality. There are only so many hours in a day.
| znpy wrote:
| > I actually have Linux PC and a separate Linux laptop
| (Thinkpad T440s).
|
| > That laptop runs super cool once I debugged all the sources
| of power usage.
|
| I have a T440 which runs quite hot, where did you look for
| sources of power usage (beyond powertop) ?
| lmilcin wrote:
| There is a difference between T440 and T440s. T440s is
| already power optimized and runs integrated GPU vs T440
| which is more normal laptop with discrete graphics.
|
| I used mostly powertop but this is less reliable source of
| information when you are running discrete graphics card.
| znpy wrote:
| My T440 does not have a discrete GPU.
|
| It's basically a T440s without the touchpad. But it's got
| an i7, of that matters.
| saltcured wrote:
| As an i7, is it quad core? I had a T440p with i7-4700MQ
| and it had terrible power consumption compared to prior
| and later Thinkpads I have experienced.
|
| What I saw in powertop was that it never got into the
| better "package" power states. The cores could all be
| spending 90%+ of the time in C7 but the package as a
| whole was in C2 or worse. I never found a way to fix
| this.
|
| Mine had the NVIDIA GPU as well as Intel iGPU, and I
| primarily used it with the iGPU. The NVIDIA was of the
| sort that was not connected to a physical output, so it
| supposedly could be powered down when not being used. I
| had no way to truly verify this, of course.
| znpy wrote:
| Nah, just a dual-core i7 @ 2.1 GHz. I got that laptop 2nd
| hand, so that was it.
|
| I don't get into the bios very often so I might be wrong,
| but I don't recall seeing any indication of an nvidia gpu
| in mine. I'll look better!
| hef19898 wrote:
| I run Ubuntu on a X1 Extreme Gen 2 for a while now, no
| problems whatsoever. The discrete nVidia GPU is as power
| hungry, and running as hot during gaming, as it did under
| Windows (so nether a big surprise nor a real problem,
| anyone remember how harsh Battletech was on GPUs
| initially?). Battery live, depending on use (and excluding
| gaming) is around 4 hours (didn't have less then 3+).
|
| The heat issue is mitigated somewhat by putting the machine
| on some kind of stand to have air pass underneath it. That
| being said, even under Windows the machine went to sleep
| just fine, also woke up again. If anything, that works
| better now under Linux.
| kenmacd wrote:
| Unfortunately these issues exist in Linux as well. There's no
| S3 in the bios.
| deaddodo wrote:
| I was going to post the exact same thing. I have the 9500; this
| definitely infuriated me and is mostly solved by installing
| Linux.
|
| There are still some things that can annoyingly wake it
| (usually a bluetooth device trying to pair to it); but it's an
| odd exception versus the 50% chance every time I went to
| transport my laptop with Windows.
| jorgesborges wrote:
| Serious question -- why do people so frequently sleep rather
| than shut down? Is it to save time on booting up? Is it because
| you want other processes running? All of the pain points below
| are reasons why I just always shut down. I think I developed
| the habit at a time when sleep just never worked on my linux
| machine though, but that was years ago now. I'm speechless
| reading below that Windows wakes just to install updates... and
| then remains awake!
| Mister_Snuggles wrote:
| I prefer to put my computer to sleep rather than shut it
| down. Closing the lid on my computer, putting it in my
| backpack, and heading home for the day is very natural. When
| I get back to work the next day, I open it up connect the
| cables, scan my fingerprint, and everything's back where I
| left it. I usually go at least a month between reboots, but
| that's highly dependant on when updates come out (and get
| approved by work, of course).
|
| This is on a Mac though, so (for me anyway) this is something
| that just works without any fuss.
| throwdecro wrote:
| As a slight aside, I prefer to shut down and be sure that
| things are shut down. It really bothered me when Mac
| laptops started turning on just because the lid was open.
|
| It makes it impossible to confirm the laptop is truly off,
| because opening it to check turns it on. This was
| especially annoying during my "boarding a plane" ritual
| where I check everything is right before settling in.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > started turning on just because the lid was open.
|
| Fridges have this problem too, but if you're taking one
| of them on a plane it's your own fault.
| wrs wrote:
| And on a Mac it works either way, as you will get almost
| all of your context back even if you shut down rather than
| sleep. Windows still seems to start up as a blank slate,
| unless I'm missing a setting somewhere.
| Mister_Snuggles wrote:
| Like a sibling commenter, I've found this pretty hit-and-
| miss too.
|
| Something like Outlook or OneNote will restore its state
| reasonably well, as will Safari/Chrome/Edge/Firefox.
| Others, like Activity Monitor, Enpass, and iTerm2, decide
| to "helpfully" open a window for me even though the
| previous state was "running with no windows open" (which
| is perfectly valid for many applications).
| InitialLastName wrote:
| These days, Windows will try to recover your context, but
| the implementation (like many other modern features like
| display scaling) is dependent on the app. As far as I've
| been able to tell, roughly most Microsoft and Electron
| apps will recover their states on reboot; most other apps
| won't.
| deaddodo wrote:
| I have literally _never_ had macOS ' restore session
| feature work correctly. It's so bad that I just decline
| it.
|
| It will try to start up the applications I least care
| about; meanwhile ignoring the actual context I desire,
| which just slows me down more.
| handrous wrote:
| > I think I developed the habit at a time when sleep just
| never worked on my linux machine though
|
| I did the same in my ~15 years of Windows & Linux desktops
| and laptops, with the _sole_ exception of an IBM (yep, was
| still IBM) Thinkpad on which suspend to disk would magically
| Just Work on Linux if you created a partition at the correct
| location, with the correct size, and with the correct type
| ID. The BIOS handled it somehow, I think, which seems crazy
| but it did work flawlessly. IIRC I didn 't even have to tell
| Linux about it, and I ran Gentoo at the time so I doubt it
| was doing anything for me automatically.
|
| Switching to Mac a little over a decade ago broke me of the
| habit, eventually. It was one of _many_ coping behaviors I
| didn 't need anymore and had to un-learn. Unfortunately, now
| that I'm used to shit actually working semi-correctly a fair
| amount of the time (to be clear, Mac is far from perfect,
| everything else is just so much worse that it's like no-one
| else is even trying) without my having to spend time
| _forcing_ it to work, it 's hard to go back.
| eitland wrote:
| > Serious question -- why do people so frequently sleep
| rather than shut down?
|
| So we can right back in the context we had? Who wants to
| spend the first 15 minutes digging out Jira, the issue you
| worked on, the two related ones, start IntelliJ, digging out
| the correct screenshots etc etc.
|
| ... or even: who wants to stop debugging and turn of the
| computer just because we are leaving the office to catch the
| train?
|
| I first learned this on a 486/66 DX2 IBM aptiva desktop in
| 1995.
|
| I've too had times when it didn't work on Linux but today
| boil-in-bag seems to be a Windows feature, not supported out
| of the box on ordinary Linux distros on mainstream hardware
| ;-)
| birdman3131 wrote:
| Hibernate is the best option by far but they seem to want to
| push away from it.
| pomian wrote:
| Yes. I agree. It seems to be getting harder to set up
| hibernate as an option. Regular (non HN) users might not
| even figure out that hibernate is a possibility. But it
| definitely is a better option than sleep.
| masklinn wrote:
| > But it definitely is a better option than sleep.
|
| It's the better option if you don't mind the longer time
| waking up, since RAM has to be restored from disk.
|
| Otherwise, sleep _should_ be backed by hibernation on all
| machines (it certainly is on mac laptops, and I think it
| is on windows as well): in case of power loss during
| sleep, the machine falls back to waking from hibernation,
| but if there was no power loss it wakes way faster. This
| is especially useful for people who move around a lot
| during the day and will close the laptop, move around,
| and reopen it. While things have gotten better with
| modern SSDs, having to restore 16 to 32GB from disk to
| RAM is far from instant-on.
| jyrkesh wrote:
| Sure, but it definitely avoids a bunch of the problems
| mentioned in this thread. It's annoying that you have to
| dig so hard to even make Hibernate visible next to Sleep,
| Shutdown, and Reboot on the various power menus.
|
| I recently switched from an XPS 15 to an M1 MacBook Pro,
| and it's glorious that I just don't have to think about
| it anymore. The XPS 15 had all the problems I'm reading
| above, and then some.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Macs do this. They hibernate to RAM and after about 1
| hour (configurable with pmset I think) they wake up
| momentarily to hibernate to SSD.
|
| The reason they don't write the hibernate image straight
| away and just power down after an hour is to eliminate
| writes to the SSD but I believe you can set that wait to
| 0.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I don't choose to sleep or shutdown. I want instant context
| saving and I will close my laptop many times a day. I expect
| opening it to restore me to where I was within 5 seconds with
| same application state and windows in the same place.
|
| I have a MacBook which performs this flawlessly and my Linux
| desktop also pauses and restores flawlessly except
| immediately after installing new Nvidia GPU drivers.
|
| I haven't thought about different CPU sleep stages in
| approximately 9 years when I had to make my XPS M1330 handle
| them in the end years of its life.
| damon_c wrote:
| People who use Macs have been just closing and opening their
| computers for about a decade and not thinking about it.
|
| The wifi is still connected, the ssh session I was in is
| still connected... The tests I was running when the doorbell
| rang... they pick up where they left off. It's nice.
|
| It's stuff like this that keeps me begrudgingly coming back
| to Apple for laptops.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > People who use Macs have been just closing and opening
| their computers for about a decade and not thinking about
| it.
|
| Yes and no. There have been weird issues where the machine
| wakes but the screen stays dark and another where
| externally connected monitors won't necessarily work on
| wake. Possibly some of this is connected fo the hell which
| is the dongle lifestyle.
|
| Apple seems to have come out the other side of these issues
| with recent laptops/OS releases (last 18 months).
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| There is something OS specific: Windows has some setting to
| wake up when a WLAN connection is available. I had this issue
| once, that I hibernated it, put it in a bag and went home. On
| the way it must have picked up some WLAN somewhere and have
| turned on, while in my bag, while the lid is closed, while
| hibernated ... And I believe this was the standard setting. I
| mean, who in their right mind wants their laptop to turn on,
| when the lid is even closed only, because they are in range of
| some WLAN? What a silly setting. This has probably fried many
| machines and also probably their owners still do not know, that
| Windows was the culprit, not their hardware. Fortunately my way
| home was not long at that time, so the overheating was avoided
| in time multiple times, until I figured out what was going on.
| Well, now I do not use Windows any longer, except rarely, so no
| such issues.
| JonyEpsilon wrote:
| You can disable network connected standby with group policy.
| I did try that when running Windows on my machine, and it
| didn't improve the randomly-getting-hot-when-asleep for me.
| coffeeling wrote:
| You need Pro for that, no group policy editor in Home.
| alyandon wrote:
| Generally speaking - GP GUI is just a front end for
| making changes to the registry for local group policies.
| You can find the mappings and make the registry setting
| changes yourself.
| brundolf wrote:
| I haven't used Windows on a laptop since 2014, and I'm...
| feeling validated about that decision right now
| kblev wrote:
| Windows keeps waking up for random things, the problem is
| getting worse with every Windows release and Microsoft keeps
| removing more and more controls.
|
| Just a few days ago I spent hours trying to fix the constant
| wake-ups. This time it was a waketimer set by the
| StartMenuExperienceHost.exe process! [1]
|
| Microsoft already removed the Power Management tabs in Device
| Manager for most devices (mouse, etc.). They also removed the
| "Allow wake timers" option in Power Options (Surface pro has
| very limited power options exposed). They also removed the
| CSEnabled registry key.
|
| [1] https://answers.microsoft.com/en-
| us/insider/forum/all/how-to...
| gambiting wrote:
| My previous PC would wake up every night around 1am and I
| could never figure out why. I disabled every single wake
| timer, all kinds of wake permissions on devices, yet it
| would always wake up in the middle of the night. The power
| event in pc management only said "woken by: unknown
| source".
| dbetteridge wrote:
| Modem cycling DHCP IP ?
|
| Mine used to do it at midnight and wake up my desktop
| till I gave it a static address
| smhenderson wrote:
| I do some support work for a friend and his kid's school
| laptops. All Lenovo/Win 10.
|
| He complained about the same thing, in this case on
| laptops that were completely shutdown the night before.
| In the end we tracked it down to the Lenovo Vantage
| service.
|
| I assume it was powering on the laptop to check for
| updates but I could find no log or record of it doing so.
| But, once we removed that software the issue went away
| completely.
|
| Anecdotal I know and I even told him it could be
| something else, that removing the software may have
| changed something related but not from Lenovo, etc. But
| in the end, a few weeks later that is, he confirmed that
| since we did that, they did not have the problem again.
| satronaut wrote:
| "unknown source", probably bill gates trolling you /s
| boardwaalk wrote:
| > Windows keeps waking up for random things
|
| Mine will wake the screen and make "device connected" and
| "device disconnected" sounds while the computer isn't
| sleeping, regularly. Besides being annoying (I eventually
| disabled those specific sounds), it probably meaningfully
| hurts the lifespan of my monitors to power cycle them every
| five freakin' minutes.
|
| I've never been able to figure out what exactly is
| happening here, trawling through event logs and such (I'm
| no Windows guru nor do I want to be).
|
| At this point, in my particular case, Linux actually feels
| more "hardware compatible" than Windows. It can keep the
| monitors _off_.
|
| I really wish Windows was good enough to not raise my blood
| with things like this, because sometimes you just need to
| use it.
| deschutes wrote:
| powercfg /lastwake will tell you why the machine woke up.
|
| Honestly I'm not sure where else you can find that
| information.
| Dayshine wrote:
| Generally it doesn't actually tell you why.
|
| lastwake will be blank and the power report will just
| tell you it changed state but give no reason.
| chihuahua wrote:
| I found the same thing when I was trying to figure out
| why an Intel NUC7i5 keeps waking up for no reason.
|
| One would hope that powercfg /lastwake provides some
| information, but it doesn't.
|
| There is a big difference between how Window should work
| in theory and what happens in practice.
| cm2187 wrote:
| I noticed that it wakes from sleep for windows updates now,
| which not only is annoying (Bluetooth devices suddenly
| waking up too), but windows update often requires intense
| CPU usage as defender does its dirty things, .net re-JITs,
| etc.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| This is a _life-threating_ design. A high-end "gamer"
| laptop in a bag powering up unexpectedly could easily
| catch fire and kill someone.
|
| These shenanigans will keep going on until someone dies
| and a manager or two at Microsoft is sent to jail for
| criminal negligence.
| comeonseriously wrote:
| > These shenanigans will keep going on until someone dies
|
| This will happen.
|
| > and a manager or two at Microsoft is sent to jail for
| criminal negligence.
|
| This will never happen.
| andi999 wrote:
| What happened to overheating protection (and then hard
| shutdown from the BIOS)
| vbezhenar wrote:
| How can laptop catch fire? CPU throttles itself at 100 C
| and shuts down shortly thereafter. 100C is not enough to
| make a fire.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| CPUs don't burn, but lithium ion cells don't like being
| at 100C.
| elzbardico wrote:
| Now imagine this happening in the overhead bin of a
| plane.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Or in the cargo hold.
| anamax wrote:
| In the US at least, laptops with LI-ion batteries are not
| supposed to be in the cargo hold.
|
| I don't know whether the checked-luggage scanners catch
| this or what happens if they find a laptop in luggage.
|
| The passenger isn't present during checked luggage
| scanning so it would be complicated to try to give the
| laptop to the passenger. The obvious alternatives look
| like theft and are extremely inconvenient. (Oh joy, I'm
| at my destination and my laptop isn't.)
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Same in Europe. No idea what they do either. I've only
| put a laptop in my checked luggage once, in 2000 when it
| was still permitted. It was one with NiMH cells by the
| way which don't have a tendency to catch fire but they
| suck in other ways (energy density, memory effect).
| That's why nobody uses them anymore.
|
| It arrived with a cracked screen so never again...
| nosianu wrote:
| > _Windows keeps waking up for random things, the problem
| is getting worse with every Windows release_
|
| I resorted to removing the power plug from the PC every
| evening after it kept turning itself on during the night
| semi-randomly. It was in "suspend to disk" mode, whatever
| that is in more technical power-save jargon terms, not just
| "suspend-to-ram".
|
| I spent a significant amount of time going through Windows
| event logs to find what caused the wake-ups, fixed some,
| others were too broad to do anything about it. The settings
| are useless. So is the Microsoft help forum. I won't even
| _try_ to ask Dell (Dell 8500 PC), they are only good at
| sending replacement hardware but unable to answer anything
| related to software (as long as they do the former I came
| to accept the latter).
|
| I too had my (also Dell) laptop overheat after I had
| suspended it, thinking it was turned off. It was very hot
| when I took it out of the bag later, fortunately it was
| just in time. It seems this mishap caught a lot of people
| off guard.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| What REALLY pisses me off is that if I put my computer to
| sleep for the night, and windows then runs some updates,
| it doesn't put the computer back to sleep! Why not? Why
| should it run all night instead of going back to sleep,
| what the hell microsoft
| masklinn wrote:
| > I resorted to removing the power plug from the PC every
| evening after it kept turning itself on during the night
| semi-randomly. It was in "suspend to disk" mode, whatever
| that is in more technical power-save jargon terms, not
| just "suspend-to-ram".
|
| In "Suspend to RAM", the RAM is kept powered when the
| computer is shut down, and thus doesn't have to be
| touched on wake, but it means the computer has to stay
| powered the whole time.
|
| In "Suspend to disk", the entire RAM is written to disk
| (which can take some time especially with an HDD) then
| the computer shuts down entirely, on wake the OS will
| restore RAM from disk before resuming. The need to read
| data back from disk to RAM makes the wake costlier, but
| because everything's on disk the computer can be
| completely shutdown.
|
| The two can be combined into mode where data is written
| to disk (making going to sleep slower) then the computer
| enters "suspend to RAM" mode. If the computer is resumed
| normally it is restored from RAM, but if the computers
| suffers power loss it's restored from disk. Either way
| the computer doesn't have to boot from scratch and all
| the working set should be recovered. IIRC it's the
| default behaviour for macOS laptops, microsoft calls it
| "hybrid sleep".
| edgriebel wrote:
| I've seen the same behavior on a 10+y.o. system with
| Win11 on it. I started unplugging it every night and re-
| plugging it every day when I went to use it.
|
| Funny thing has happened in the meantime, since getting a
| MB Air I haven't plugged it in for like 2 months now...
| lr1970 wrote:
| Before you put it sleep activate Airplane mode. Hopefully
| it will disable wake ups.
| mannykannot wrote:
| Hardware manufacturers could pressure Microsoft to stop doing
| this. I hope there will soon be legal action prompting the
| manufacturers to take action (perhaps a class action against
| Dell by people who have been denied warranty on this basis? -
| though in the USA at least, Dell probably has that blocked by
| arbitration clauses.)
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| For desktops at least, Wake on LAN is still a setting in
| EFI/BIOS. On my AMD desktop using a high end ASUS motherboard
| (Dark Hero), I switched that off along with a couple things
| that looked like a WoL setting in Windows, and that PC has
| stayed asleep all night ever since.
|
| I haven't seen this behavior from my ThinkPad X1 Nano, but
| that may be because it shuts itself down entirely after being
| closed for an hour or two without being connected to a power
| source.
| dTal wrote:
| Something seems a bit off with your numbers. If you're losing
| 5% of your battery "overnight" (at least 8 hours I assume), and
| you have the larger 86Wh battery, that implies a discharge rate
| of only 537mW.
|
| 900mw - nearly a whole watt - seems very high! Easily enough to
| cause noticeable warming - a _running_ modern laptop at idle
| only uses 3-6 watts.
| JonyEpsilon wrote:
| You're right, checked my notes and it loses 8% on average
| over 8 hours.
|
| Agree that 900mW is high given that it's _not supposed to be
| doing anything_. It is what it is though ... haven 't found a
| way to improve that.
|
| Re. the comparison to idle power, I suppose there's a reason
| S1 is called "sleep2idle"!!
| quasarj wrote:
| "Modern Standby" is such a crock of shit. As far as anyone
| knows, it doesn't do anything useful, but it consumes FIFTY
| PERCENT (50%!) of the battery each night.
|
| Luckily you can turn it off, at least in Linux, and then the
| machine functions more-or-less normally.
| VortexDream wrote:
| It's something about modern standby. I have a laptop with a
| 10th Gen i7. I put it in my bag once and when I pulled it out
| after my trip, the fans were running at full blast and the
| laptop was extremely hot. I'm also fairly sure it damaged the
| fan because it's never been able to run at higher speeds ever
| since.
|
| I'm also not sure if it's a bug or something else. I do feel
| like there's something problematic about modern standby. I
| didn't have this issue under Linux, which actually does standby
| properly.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Perhaps one root cause is that popular reviewers dig into
| battery life _while the laptop is being used_ , but not when
| it's sleeping and/or powered down.
|
| So manufacturers just neglect this side of things, or cut
| corners to save money.
| discreditable wrote:
| I've seen issues with Modern Standby on my fleet of Lenovo
| ThinkPad Yoga L13 and L13 Gen 2. Usually everything is fine,
| but sometimes they get super hot in standby as well. It's like
| something is keeping the CPU awake but the rest of the hardware
| is asleep (including the fans). My older units (ThinkPad Yoga
| 260, ThinkPad Yoga 370, ThinkPad L380 Yoga, ThinkPad L390 Yoga)
| never had any problem like this because they don't support
| Modern Standby.
|
| It's very annoying that MS doesn't allow us any way to disable
| Modern Standby. OEMs still haven't figured out how to make old
| school sleep perfectly reliable. Springing a new standby model
| on them was doomed to be just troublesome.
| dublin wrote:
| Modern Standby is an Intel thing, not a Microsoft thing.
| Intel has just pressured Microsoft and other OEMs into
| supporting it. IMO, it's a huge steaming pile-o-crap, and one
| of the biggest reasons I want my next PC to have a non-Intel
| CPU. Intel has shown over the past decade that they are quite
| simply incapable of implementing properly functioning power
| management, and I'm tired of having machines die because of
| their stupidity.
|
| I've had two Surface Pro 4's (one of the first "Modern Sleep"
| devices) develop battery bloat because of this Intel's power
| mgt incompetence. Microsoft replaced both, but what is this
| crap costing all of us, both in higher hardware prices and
| environmental waste?
|
| FWIW, I haven't needed a faster CPU in years - I need more
| RAM, long, long battery life, and sleep/wake that always
| works, instantly. If the iPad were capable of being a real
| computer, it might get me back into the Apple fold, if iOS
| had a usable UI...
| abind wrote:
| FWIW, it is not an Intel thing. I got an Asus G14 2021
| which has nothing Intel (Amd CPU and nvidia GPU) and this
| does not support S3, only the modern "connected standby"
| crap.
|
| Talk about ruining a perfectly working solution for almost
| no gain.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Not sure if this is related, but I have a 2021 Legion 5 Pro,
| and even _fully powered down_ it seems to lose a lot of
| battery power overnight. (Maybe 5%-10% charge, IIRC?)
|
| And this is even after changing the BIOS setting so that it's
| always-on USB port isn't always on.
|
| I'm really curious where the power is going. Or if the
| supplied battery has internal leakage issues.
| gpderetta wrote:
| My wife had a similar problem with her XPS-15. Randomly during
| the night the laptop would warm up and cause the fans to spin
| up. Apparently this is caused by windows waking up. Initially I
| thought it was windows deciding to do an update, but even
| disabling that (if it is possible at all), the laptop would
| wakeup. Random trailing through the internet pointed to the
| useless Killer network drivers, or better the management
| application, to be the cause and uninstalling them was supposed
| to fix the issue. Anecdotally it seemed to have worked, but
| when I last checked the drivers seemed to be back.
| criddell wrote:
| I have the same problem on my new Thinkpad. I found a setting
| in the BIOS for Linux mode and that seems to have fixed the
| problem for now Windows has S3 available again. If I switch
| it to Windows mode, then modern sleep prevails and the fans
| run all the time.
| comeonseriously wrote:
| Ironically, the reason S3 is not available is _because_ of
| Microsoft.
| MrPatan wrote:
| Do they sell you bags?
| talideon wrote:
| This is misleading. Simply putting the laptop is a bag won't void
| its warranty. OTOH, putting in the laptop bag while it's on and
| letting it cook will.
| comeonseriously wrote:
| Not misleading at all. Their sleep is BROKEN compared to what
| people's expectation of SLEEP are.
| everdrive wrote:
| Years ago (~2010) I learned that companies sell laptops which
| can't cool themselves properly. I had an Acer "gaming laptop,"
| which from the factory had fans which didn't sufficiently cool
| the CPU. After about 2 years of normal use, it cooked its thermal
| paste, and would shut off under even moderate use / stress.
|
| This is obviously a different situation than what's occurring
| with Dell laptops, but it's not too far afield. When I bought the
| Acer, I never even considered reading up on cooling. I figured
| I'd only have to understand cooling if I built a computer myself:
| surely one from a manufacturer would already be able to cool
| itself sufficiently. Well, it turned out I was wrong. Keeping
| laptops cool is actually a pretty tough engineering problem, and
| too many companies and consumers aren't will to pay the price
| (either in higher dollar amount, or constrained capabilities) to
| ensure that this a standard.
| only_as_i_fall wrote:
| Reminds me of the issue I remember with old Dell gaming laptops
| where the cups just had an insane amount of thermal paste on
| them so they always ran way hotter than they should.
|
| You really can't trust the manufacturer to know what they're
| doing, especially if the potential problem is unlikely to be
| covered under warranty.
| Finnucane wrote:
| Doesn't seem to be much better for desktops: my wife just
| bought a Dell PC for gaming, and we have to replace the cpu
| cooler and case fan because what was supplied was clearly
| inadequate. Just because Dell wanted to shave a couple bucks
| off the manufacturing cost.
| hetspookjee wrote:
| I really wonder what still drives people to Dell? Their products
| looks marvelous on the tech sheet, and that's also where the
| marvel ends. In my current career I've yet to touch a Dell laptop
| that doesn't try to melt itself by simply turning on, or fails to
| respond to touching the power button. It's as if the operation of
| the Power Button is a schrodinger cat.
|
| Any corporation that is operating exclusively on Dell I deem to
| regard as a cost mitigation corporation that does not have their
| developers at their first place. I believe that no sane developer
| will opt for Dell's products, but rather go with Lenovo or Apple.
| cesarb wrote:
| I've had several Dell devices, both laptops and desktops, both
| at home and at work, and that has never been my experience. In
| fact, I'm typing this on a Dell laptop, which doesn't have any
| of these issues you mentioned.
|
| > I believe that no sane developer will opt for Dell's
| products, but rather go with Lenovo or Apple.
|
| I'm not interested in Apple devices, since besides being very
| expensive, I prefer to use Linux exclusively, and as far as I
| know, Linux on Apple devices tends to be problematic.
|
| As for Lenovo, I tried buying a Lenovo device once, but they
| canceled the sale without any explanation and without giving my
| money back; and I simply couldn't contact their sales
| department to ask for a refund (by phone they said it had to be
| done through email, but the emails went unanswered; I had to
| sue them in small claims to get my money back). Contrast that
| with my experience with Dell, where even when their service
| wasn't at its best (IIRC, some sort of logistics issue due to
| changing their carrier), they at least answered my phone calls.
| dagw wrote:
| _but rather go with Lenovo_
|
| I went Lenovo, and it was not an improvement over my previous
| Dell. It wakes up and kills the battery when the lid is closed
| all the time. And at essentially the same spec I get less than
| half the battery and twice the fan noise compare to the Dell.
| llampx wrote:
| Incredible. I have a Dell laptop and luckily I haven't had any
| catastrophes but I have seen it woken up a couple of times when
| it was just sitting there with its lid closed and nothing
| attached.
| kreetx wrote:
| Can't the laptop just turn off or hibernate when it gets too hot
| in a bag or sleeve (or both)?
| simonswords82 wrote:
| I don't miss having to worry about this type of nonsense. Is it a
| Dell problem? Is it Microsoft problem? Don't care - I just need
| my laptop to work.
|
| I've had every Microsoft laptop I can think of. Dell, Lenovo,
| Acer etc...
|
| In 2014 I switched to Apple Macbook Air and have remained Apple
| ever since despite the fact that I run a .NET tech stack product
| company.
|
| Yes the Macbook pro keyboard debacle was a shit show but
| otherwise my Macs "just work".
| Yizahi wrote:
| That's because they know how shitty is sleep function really. Ok,
| laptop is in a sleep mode successfully. But doing anything to it
| or even looking at it funny will immediately wake it. Moving
| mouse, switching off mouse, inserting or removing mouse dongle,
| inserting or removing headphones and so on. I simply stopped
| using sleep mode altogether.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Ok, laptop is in a sleep mode successfully. But doing
| anything to it or even looking at it funny will immediately
| wake it.
|
| The XPS that I recently replaced had to be closed at night,
| which annoyed me every day. If left open, it would detect that
| it was idle and shut off the display. Except that that only
| worked on the laptop screen. The external monitor would go
| through a permanent cycle of shutting off, waking up,
| displaying a "no signal" message, shutting off, waking up...
|
| This doesn't happen with other laptops on the same monitor.
| Something was broken pretty badly.
| brassattax wrote:
| Same with my Dell Precision... I have to do a full shutdown
| before putting it in my bag.
| rguillebert wrote:
| What are the good alternatives for an XPS like laptop that runs
| Linux?
| Mic92 wrote:
| Thinkpads
| [deleted]
| Aardwolf wrote:
| So if I understand it correctly, you have to manually shut down
| these laptops if you want to travel/commute with them and reboot
| them again when you want to use them, and they call that "MODERN"
| standby? And not even an option to change it?
|
| Are they planning to keep that obviously broken behavior as the
| forum post seems to imply, or they will fix it?
| algismo wrote:
| I own XPS 13 9380 with Windows 10. Same mess with the sleep. I
| have to carry the laptop in the bag when commuting. You never
| know what it is doing when lid is closed. There is no lights on
| the laptop to indicate its state so I just usually put it to my
| ear and listen until the fan goes off after closing the lid. Then
| it is semi safe to put it into the bag. Feels like stone age.
|
| Things are just getting worse with Windows and those standard
| PCs. I never understood why they moved to that S1 idle when S3
| was fulfilling basic needs. This family Intel+Windows starts to
| irritate me. I am seriously considering either fully moving to
| Linux or to Apple Silicon and Mac OS.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| I had a dell laptop around 2012 that had this same problem, on
| Windows 7. I also remember holding it up to my ear to confirm
| it shut down haha. And it did wake itself up and overheat in my
| bag a couple times. I've just avoided Dell ever since when I
| can. My current work laptop is some sort of Dell XPS, but at
| least I didn't pay for it.
| tim333 wrote:
| I can recommend the M1 air which has surprised me the other
| direction in hardly using any battery while sleeping. The prior
| Intel macbook used a lot more.
| ypcx wrote:
| Writing this from my 2019 XPS 15 7590 i9 with (extended) 64 GB
| RAM. The OLED display quality is still the best any laptop can
| offer, but that's where it ends. Had countless issues with
| sleep, reboots after being "killed in sleep" for going over
| Windows sleep "battery drain limit" (can be increased in
| registry but hey), wifi/bt issues after wake-up, short battery
| endurance, fan noise (mitigated by undervolting w/
| ThrottleStop). (In case I may sound too dramatic, check their
| forums: https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/bd-p/XPS)
|
| Then there's the classic Windows Laptop "goodness" like bad
| keyboards, bad trackpad (too much scrolling, jagged scrolling,
| bad trackpad surface), necessity to emulate
| Linux/Git/Wsl/Cygwin for any real dev work, having elaborate
| install.txt procedures for setting up a new laptop.
|
| I wanted to have a "beefy" machine but since I can now do my
| play things on Google Colab (and my work on company's Macbook),
| I just ordered the last year's M1 Macbook Air and I'm done with
| this Dante's Inferno of Windows Laptop ecosystem. Windows 11
| just reinforced my disbelief that Microsoft can produce usable
| operating system before our civilization reaches Singularity.
| zeven7 wrote:
| I'll chime in as well from my 2020 XPS 17. This issue is
| incredibly frustrating. It's worth switching over, however I
| don't really know where to go for a premium laptop. I'm not
| very interested in a Mac. HP and Lenovo have given me tons of
| problems in the past (which is why I switched to Dell). From
| this thread it seems like several other vendors have similar
| problems to this Dell one. What options are there?
| BluePen8 wrote:
| I'll be frank, the MacBooks are overpriced, and do have
| some of their own issues, but they're actually still the
| best choice.
|
| At the very least based on my own experience you should
| avoid HP Elitebooks, and Microsoft Surfaces, also Asus
| Zenbooks, and Dell Inspirons.
|
| ...As you can tell from that list I've tried very hard to
| avoid paying the premium for a MacBook before giving in.
| They're still not perfect, but they're good enough that I
| am never going back to a Windows laptop.
| bscphil wrote:
| > like bad keyboards, bad trackpad (too much scrolling,
| jagged scrolling, bad trackpad surface)
|
| Curious to hear more about the keyboard / trackpad issues
| you're seeing. I have an older XPS model, which has the best
| laptop keyboard I've ever used (better than any MacBook I've
| tried) and a great trackpad too (I haven't used a MacBook
| from the last several years, but it's hard to beat physical
| left/right buttons).
|
| Has the touchpad changed? Mine is extremely smooth, it does
| not stick to your finger at all, and has no texturing on the
| surface like cheap laptops sometimes do.
|
| Furthermore, I'm curious if you've tried Linux on the laptop
| at all. In the past, most issues I had with "bad" trackpads
| (other than when the surface itself was bad) were resolved by
| installing Linux, where the drivers simply worked better than
| on Windows and were generally more configurable (although the
| advent of libinput changed that).
| [deleted]
| dheera wrote:
| Same with Linux honestly. I suspended a Linux laptop, shoved it
| in the bag, got on the train, little did I know that it didn't
| actually go into suspend.
|
| Like WTF, if the lid is closed, the _hardware_ should force it
| to suspend, not get stuck in some software. If the software
| doesn 't respond in time then force the damn thing off.
|
| It heated up like mad, even too hot to touch. Was worried about
| the possibility of a Lithium battery explosion. If that
| happened who do you sue, Canonical or the laptop manufacturer?
| axegon_ wrote:
| I got a new laptop earlier this year and I was eyeing this
| exact one. I was going to wipe out windows and put linux on
| it(as is tradition with me) but I ended up settling for an Asus
| once again. It seems like you can get a lot more bang for the
| buck with Asus in Europe. Can't say it has been an entirely
| smooth ride for one or two reasons(running a patched kernel
| driver for the screen backlight) but after reading your
| comment, I am glad I made that call.
| spijdar wrote:
| FYI, these computers may lack proper firmware support to deep
| sleep on Linux as well, and will use s2idle sleep.
|
| I believe ARM Macs use the same type of sleep, only with more
| polished firmware and better vertical integration with the OS.
| terinjokes wrote:
| Can confirm, 9310 (Late 2020, non-2-in-1), only has s2idle.
| Still "Ubuntu Certified" which, after this laptop, I've learn
| doesn't mean much.
| qudat wrote:
| Im currently in the process of getting a framework laptop setup
| using arch+wayland+sway and I'm not convinced it's any better
| on this side. Something as simple as a screensaver requires
| xwayland which is frustrating.
| afavour wrote:
| FWIW my (Intel) MacBook does the same. Sometimes it just
| doesn't go to sleep when I close the lid and it's not clear
| why, so I have to listen for the fans. So dumb.
| superjan wrote:
| I absolutely agree that microsoft could and should make this
| work better. But the pragmatic workaround is the setting to
| force hibernation when you close the lid. You can resume from
| SSD in 10 seconds. No middle of the night wakeups. Much
| improved battery life.
| alexeiz wrote:
| The funny thing is that the "modern standby" was supposed to
| improve the wakeup time from a couple of seconds to a faction
| of a second. But effectively it turned the wakeup into 10
| seconds because you have to disable the modern standby and
| use hibernate instead.
| fsckboy wrote:
| TFA says that hibernation is problematic for putting your
| computer into your bag. I understand what you mean by
| hibernation, and while it should not cause a problem...
| that's what the link says
| londons_explore wrote:
| When windows is hibernated, if a scheduled task is set for
| a specific time, it will use the hardware wake-up feature
| to turn on the machine and run the scheduled task.
|
| Windows has a lot of 3am scheduled tasks for all kinds of
| random stuff (disk defrag, various update checks, etc). Any
| of those can cause the system to reawaken.
| Dayshine wrote:
| My dell xps hibernation doesn't work.
|
| 20% of the time it works.
|
| 40% of the time it won't wake and I have to kill it (screen
| stays dark even though keyboard indicates it is awake)
|
| 30% of the time it just immediately wakes
|
| 10% of the time it wakes at like 2am and power cycles my
| monitor every 30 seconds waking me up
| zeven7 wrote:
| I'll back you up on this. I tried the trick to switch to
| hibernate, but it actually got worse for me than my
| problems with sleep.
| drw85 wrote:
| In my case it also messes with many internal devices like
| webcam, USB etc.
|
| Half the time i have to reboot to make those work again.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| >> 10% of the time it wakes at like 2am and power cycles my
| monitor every 30 seconds waking me up
|
| My thinkpad does the same. Wtf is up with that?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| My Mac did that too but I tracked it to Wake on LAN, some
| random probes from other equipment were walking it up
| sometimes.
| oauea wrote:
| What kind of evil IoT crapware is sending WoL packets to
| random devices on the network?
| hadlock wrote:
| The problem with this is, you can force the laptop to use
| other sleep modes, but either a) dell disables those modes
| entirely in the BIOS b) windows update resets the sleep mode
| docmars wrote:
| I had to do this with my ASUS Zephyrus G14 because it's an
| AMD-based machine and doesn't support a true Standby mode
| anyway. It's not the greatest coming from the Mac ecosystem
| where Sleep basically just works (well, most of the time,
| High Sierra screwed up a lot of things around that).
|
| To my knowledge, it hasn't woken up without my input and
| Hibernate doesn't eat the battery alive while it's asleep.
| pitterpatter wrote:
| That won't always save you, there have definitely been bugs
| where it tries to hibernate but gets stuck
| alexeiz wrote:
| > listen until the fan goes off after closing the lid
|
| I knew I wasn't the only one who does it!
| mnadkvlb wrote:
| Recently bought a 7390 latitude (2-3 years old). amazing
| machine for basic remote desktop and basic office work etc.
| Battery lasts 10+ hrs on light work.
|
| Had the sleep states turned on and would randomly die at 60%
| battery while sleeping. Found out its a long standing bug in
| dells. Sometimes it just restarts the machine so if its in a
| bag it will just keep running.
|
| Turned of sleep states in firmware and instead now it goes to
| hibernate on sleep. No random behavior or shutdown.
|
| Its mind boggling this shit used to work totally fine on older
| laptops, no idea what changed.
| cma wrote:
| Had the same with Apple. An update made it quit sleeping
| correctly when using a microsd card to expand storage (it
| worked fine at first).
| x0x0 wrote:
| Me too.
|
| The Yubikey nano -- the little one meant to be permanently
| left in a usb slot your laptop -- absolutely nukes the
| battery in my mac, draining it on "sleep" to zero within a
| day or so. Infuriating incompetence.
| bmurphy1976 wrote:
| Huh. What version Mac/OSX are you using? I've had a
| Yubikey Nano plugged into various iterations of a MacBook
| Pro for years and haven't noticed this. The worst battery
| killer for me is Firefox.
| x0x0 wrote:
| 10.14, late 2019 16 inch mbp
|
| I thought I was being crazy and that maybe something was
| brushing it, so I let it sit in a moat on my desk
| immediately after booting. Full battery discharge in
| sleep in under 30 hours.
|
| Without the yubikey, a full weekend sitting on my desk
| from a full charge leaves a reported 100% of battery.
| nier wrote:
| How did you get macOS 10.14 running on that MacBook Pro?
| greendave wrote:
| That's not quite possible. I wish 10.14 supported the
| 2019 rMBP 16 but alas..
| IncRnd wrote:
| The laptops can enter a special standby mode that keeps the
| network alive, so they will immediately resume when the lid
| opens. This means, of course, that the laptops never actually
| shut down and run constantly.
| mnadkvlb wrote:
| true, but i actually turn that explicitly off on physical
| network settings in windows.
|
| My guess is windows will apparently not let u control such
| things, as the advertising data pipe has to be alive no
| matter what. Microsft seems to be both google and apple at
| the same time, selling ads and hardware.
| IncRnd wrote:
| I'm really sorry that didn't work for you.
| tazjin wrote:
| Did anyone else notice that the cookie popup on this Dell page
| had the option to "declinate all cookies"? I did a double take to
| see if this was a real Dell page based on that.
| justinclift wrote:
| Semi-related:
|
| "The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used"
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28606962
|
| Probably a better option for many people's next purchase (when
| they add Ryzen models anyway! ;>)
| pindab0ter wrote:
| I don't see how this is related other than it also being a
| laptop.
| nfriedly wrote:
| This is more of a Windows problem than a Dell problem. Windows
| seems to be terrible at going to sleep and staying asleep.
|
| My current and previous Windows laptops (neither were from Dell)
| are/were set to sleep for 15 minutes and then hibernate when I
| have the lid closed, because otherwise they would randomly wake
| up, deplete the battery, generate lots of heat, and sometimes
| wake me up in the middle of the night.
|
| I've also had desktop PCs with Windows that just refused to go to
| / stay asleep for various reasons including windows updates (that
| still hadn't completed a week later) and a documentation website
| that had a small silent video on loop (like an animated gif.)
|
| My 2019 MacBook is better about this; once it goes to sleep, it
| seems to stay asleep. But it's still not perfect - I hit an issue
| where the iOS simulator and/or the Android emulator caused it to
| stay awake with the lid shut and drain my battery. So now I do
| kill those before closing the lid. But it does feel safe to put
| in a bag once it's actually asleep.
| hadlock wrote:
| Dell used to have the option to disable "modern sleep" which is
| the root cause of all these problems. Dell in a later firmware
| update disabled the ability for end users to "fix" the problem
| on their end. This was about three years ago for the 9570 XPS
| model, they have not reverted this user-hostile action to my
| knowledge.
|
| I still have my 9570 for gaming, just because I don't have the
| time to focus on replacing my windows laptop, but that's
| certainly the Last dell I plan on buying, I deal with laptop
| users regularly and this is one of the most common dell-
| specific complaints I hear/see.
| KarlTheCool wrote:
| Microsoft has a serious issue with thinking it's ok to wake up
| from sleep mode. I added a script to the task scheduler to
| resleep if woken up by anything other than the power button[1].
| In retrospect, the wake ups were either to perform updates or
| some kind of bug related to transitioning to hibernation which
| ends up with the pc idling on[2]. Both of which would result in
| the classic hot bag / dead battery situation.
|
| [1] https://github.com/KarlTheCool/NeverWake
|
| [2]
| https://old.reddit.com/r/gpdwin/comments/iqmdeo/windows_kept...
| infp_arborist wrote:
| Am I the only one who is afraid that part of the reason for not
| fixing behaviour like this might be a nudging towards "always on"
| devices?
|
| Reading through the comments it seems on Windows this might be
| related to WLAN and automatic updates, a rather sensitive area
| when it comes to security and privacy.
|
| Happy to hear your opinions, I'd really love to be proven 100%
| wrong about this.
| julianlam wrote:
| Occam's Razor suggests that it is likely promoted to boost UX.
| Being able to open a laptop and get going instantly (much like
| unlocking a phone or tablet) appeals to end users.
|
| Personally, I couldn't give a darn. I grew up staring at a
| Windows 3.11 boot screen for minutes at a time. I have patience
| LOL
| [deleted]
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Clickbait.
|
| What they actually say: " _Under no circumstances should you
| leave a laptop powered on and in any sleep /hibernate/standby
| mode when placed in a bag, backpack, or in an overhead bin. The
| PC will overheat as a result of that action. Any resulting damage
| will not be covered by the Dell warranty._"
|
| Fair enough. A laptop that overheats because it's been left in an
| enclosed space whilst not off is not damage caused by a fault of
| the device.
| npteljes wrote:
| Absolutely fair, from Dell's POV.
|
| The fault lies with Microsoft, mismanaging the user
| expectations about shutting down the computer.
|
| The computer should absolutely not wake up from sleep to do
| things, if the result could be that it overheats. It's like
| saying people shouldn't pocket their smartphones.
| kelnos wrote:
| I don't think this is clickbait; I think any normal user would
| think that closing the lid puts the laptop into a state where
| putting it in a bag is entirely safe to do.
|
| Microsoft seems to have decided to entirely break this
| expectation such that closing the lid of a laptop puts it into
| this weird not-really-suspended state, such that putting it in
| a confined space could cause it to overheat. It's... pretty
| user-unfriendly and IMO stupid.
| dotancohen wrote:
| So, why does the lid close then?
|
| Or in other words, from the perspective of the hardware, what
| is about to happen once somebody closes the lid?
| 174SIGSEGV wrote:
| Exactly. I would personally consider damage caused by an
| unreliable suspend mode (whether an issue of software or
| hardware) to be an example of manufacturer defect.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| The problem is that Windows defect breaks laptops not under
| warranty by Microsoft. Getting refund would be tricky, and
| voiding Dell warranty in such case seems justified.
| hexo wrote:
| The problem is that windows is bundled, so they are
| definitely responsible for putting defective software on
| their defective laptop. Putting suspended laptop in a
| backpack cannot void warranty. This is like from another
| universe or what.
| Macha wrote:
| You could argue this for pretty much anything? Your mac
| screen failure is LG's fault, not Apple's. Your Asus
| GPU's failure is Nvidia's fault, not Asus's. Your
| internet outage is Cisco's fault, not your ISP's.
|
| Ultimately the company selling to the end user has to
| stand over the package they're selling.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| > _I think any normal user would think that closing the lid
| puts the laptop into a state where putting it in a bag is
| entirely safe to do._
|
| Closing the lid does not necessarily turn the laptop off at
| all (by design). I think most people have had that
| experience. In fact the lid may be closed with the laptop
| fully on.
|
| In any case, they make is explicit and clear exactly to avoid
| any such assumption.
|
| The title is obviously clickbait because of course you can
| put your Dell laptop in a bag and of course that does not
| void the warranty.
| albertopv wrote:
| Most people I know are not techincal and think that closing
| the lapton shuts it down, or something equivalent and I
| don't think any of them knows anything about Modern
| Standby. But I agree title could have been more clear if it
| included a reference to stand by.
| monkey_monkey wrote:
| No it's not clickbait.
|
| Weird that you're angrier about a headline than a warranty
| being voided by putting a laptop in a bag.
| [deleted]
| fxtentacle wrote:
| I stopped using my Microsoft Surface Pro because it had the same
| issues. It's a clusterfuck of bad design decisions at Microsoft,
| the most offensive one being that they prioritize the execution
| of their scheduled spyware upload (telemetry) over honoring the
| agreement with the user that a sleeping PC will remain asleep
| unless the user takes action. It'll even install updates at night
| and then make reboot sounds to wake you up. And the next day,
| your unsaved open documents are all gone. Plus as described here,
| many Windows 10 laptops will either burn themselves, or the
| battery will be empty whenever you need em.
| andrewia wrote:
| I found a solution on Microsoft's website:
| https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/surface-it-pro-blog/s...
|
| It appears you can instruct it to avoid connecting to the
| internet to do stuff while in standby. I hope this works since
| my Surface Book has bad standby drain after sitting on my desk
| for 2-3 days off charge.
| brianwawok wrote:
| The best part is, most of these security changes you do get
| reset every so often from patches, so it will revert to the
| "bad" behavior within 6 months.
| xxs wrote:
| pretty much all kind of settings reset - even extremely
| obnoxious ones like - Microsoft weather using Frankenstein
| degrees instead (Cience).
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Ah yes... microsoft implementing user-friendly shell
| commands:
|
| > powercfg /setdcvalueindex scheme_current sub_none
| F15576E8-98B7-4186-B944-EAFA664402D9 0
|
| > powercfg /setacvalueindex scheme_current sub_none
| F15576E8-98B7-4186-B944-EAFA664402D9 0
| VRay wrote:
| Man, if I have to dig in that deep to get basic
| functionality, I'd rather just bite the bullet and get a
| linux machine set up the way I like
| teawrecks wrote:
| Ah, must be why I've never had any issues with my xps running
| Linux.
| cududa wrote:
| Yeah because if anything, Linux is definitely known for great
| power management on laptops
| macksd wrote:
| Are you possibly referring to something that isn't
| automatic detection of hardware features? I've been on
| Linux laptops for 13 years but almost always on something
| shipped by the vendor, and I've never had these problems of
| going to sleep or bad power management that I hear about
| from HN comments.
| rathboma wrote:
| Typically linux users (like myself) enable S3 sleep mode,
| which does exactly what most folks expect it to (sleep
| until a user action is taken). It's rock solid and I've
| never had a problem with it in ~8 years.
| Scarbutt wrote:
| Yes that part works, the issue is when you wake up the
| laptop, half the system is broken.
| nobleach wrote:
| While there is a BIOS hack to supposedly do that on an
| XPS 9500/9510, I've yet to see anyone get it to work. I
| am typing this comment on a 9500 that is mostly great
| with Linux. Its battery life is subpar though. I'm
| limited to S2 Idle or deep sleep.
| EvRev wrote:
| The ability to configure the options and not have every
| interaction tracked does make Linux the best option.
| However unpopular that may be.
|
| The Dell with Linux out of the box had cooling issues and a
| high-pitched fan. Sure the cores would be disabled to deal
| with the power issues, which supports your point.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I've been using linux on laptops for years and I have no
| idea what you are talking about.
| nobleach wrote:
| The level of "idle vs suspend to RAM vs Deep Hibernate
| (suspend to disk)" is noted by "S" levels.
| acchow wrote:
| So the higher the S number the lower the energy usage? Or
| vice versa?
| my123 wrote:
| Modern/Connected Standby is S0ix, which goes out of that
| convention.
| naikrovek wrote:
| I mean, I know it's too late to help you, but running
| "powercfg.exe /lastwake" after a windows computer wakes from
| standby will tell you exactly what woke it up, if it knows.
|
| I've never had it return with "unknown" once in over a decade,
| but some people I know have.
|
| if you can find all the things waking the computer, and fix
| those things, it will never wake without user intervention.
|
| usually, for me, it's been device drivers which have permission
| to wake the computer from sleep by default, for some stupid
| reason. removing that permission on those devices has
| eliminated "hot bag syndrome" for me entirely.
|
| I agree that these steps should not need to be taken. device
| driver authors are the source of almost all bad crap like this
| in windows.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>I mean, I know it's too late to help you, but running
| "powercfg.exe /lastwake" after a windows computer wakes from
| standby will tell you exactly what woke it up, if it knows.
|
| I'm one of those people - my computer kept waking up in the
| middle of the night and that command would always just return
| "wake source: unknown" for me.
| naikrovek wrote:
| are there devices which are allowed to wake your computer?
| powercfg -devicequery wake_armed
|
| if anything shows up, disable those devices with this
| command: powercfg -devicedisablewake
| "Device Name"
|
| I quickly googled this but I don't expect a lot of people
| to know what to search for, so if you've already found this
| and tried it, then I really am out of ideas this time.
|
| if you haven't tried this, try it, and I really hope it
| helps.
| gambiting wrote:
| I got rid of that PC a year ago :P But trust me, I tried
| literally every trick in the book, including the one
| above. No devices had the capability to wake up the
| PC(yes, including the mouse and the keyboard), disabled
| all wake timers, disabled all networking(in fact
| unplugged the ethernet cable).....it would still wake up
| in the middle of the night. It was the most confusing
| thing I ever dealt with in computers.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| I wish I had known about this.
|
| That said, the tablet felt so infuriating to me that I
| was honestly happy when it was gone again, despite the
| financial loss.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| > _I know it 's too late to help you_
|
| But it's not too late to help others! Thank you for showing
| us how _insane_ this is.
| oauea wrote:
| What's insane here? Waking the machine up is a legitimate
| use case, and it's easily traceable and configurable.
| myself248 wrote:
| A machine doing something I didn't tell it to is insane.
|
| I am the user. I use the machine, not the other way
| around.
| matsemann wrote:
| I had this problem for months with my computer booting
| randomly some nights, waking me because of its loud fans.
| Turns out it was our dog pushing my desk chair so that the
| armrest bumped some key on the keyboard.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Haha I should have mentioned that one as a repeat offender.
| After the Surface wakes up, reboots, makes noise, gets hot,
| and drains 20% of its battery, if I then run "powercfg.exe
| /lastwake" it'll pretend that it did not wake up X_X
|
| And in my case, there wasn't any non-Microsoft drivers on the
| system. The issue appears to be that they do magical stuff
| when they spot a WiFi connection, or when my WiFi router does
| its daily reboot.
| mjaniczek wrote:
| Offtopic:
|
| > or when my WiFi router does its daily reboot.
|
| Damn, I think that might fix 99% of the issues I have with
| my WiFi router.
| icelancer wrote:
| Yeah it helps. I recommend it as well, I have it
| scheduled to reboot at 5:15 AM every day.
| AuthorizedCust wrote:
| Are you sure it went to sleep? I've had prior issues on a
| Surface and a 9310 where it appeared to sleep but didn't. I
| found that out through Event Viewer.
| errantspark wrote:
| I have NEVER in my life ever gotten a useful output from
| `powercfg.exe /lastwake`. I'm honestly surprised to hear
| someone mention it as working, I thought it was the sort of
| thing that was just copypasted on clickfarming tech-help
| blogs without any sort of verification that it actually
| works.
|
| In fact I just tried it again on 4 computers and every one of
| them said "Wake History Count - 0".
| Drew_ wrote:
| It only works for the most basic mouse/keyboard scenarios
| in my experience
| naikrovek wrote:
| note that it won't report reasons the machine was woken
| from hibernate, since hibernate isn't a sleep state.
|
| also, run the command as an administrator. not just using
| an account that is an administrator. use an elevated cmd
| prompt or PowerShell window.
|
| if you're doing all that, idk what's going on.
|
| You can, however, see what devices are capable of waking
| your machine, and then disable them, by using the commands
| in my other comment:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28647492
| errantspark wrote:
| -\\_(tsu)_/- No hibernation, yes admin, yes elevated
| prompt, nada. Disabling devices has never worked for me
| either, again I'm legitimately surprised that these
| things have ever worked for anyone since it's never had
| any effect whenever I've tried it.
| oauea wrote:
| Power & Sleep settings > Additional power settings > Change
| plan settings > Change advanced power settings > Sleep >
| Allow wake timers > Disable
| tzs wrote:
| I've got a Surface Pro 4. It was great for the first year or
| so, when I was using it as a tablet on the couch for browsing,
| reading, and as a digital scratchpad.
|
| I then got an iPad via a ridiculously good deal from Comcast
| (128 GB 6th generation (which was the latest generation at the
| time) for $120. The iPad took over most browsing, reading, and
| scratchpad duties, with the SP4 just getting occasional use
| when I needed something more general than the iPad.
|
| What I noticed when the SP4 went from daily use to weekly or so
| is that the battery would always be low when I went to use it.
| Charge it up fully and shut it down...and a week later it needs
| charging again.
|
| I believe that is because shut down is really some kind of
| sleep or hibernate. I've tried disabling all of those, and fast
| start. I've tried shutting down from the start menu, with and
| without the modifiers that are supposed to make it really shut
| down. I've tried command line commands that are supposed to
| really shut it down. I've tried shutting down from the BIOS.
|
| But no matter what I do it consumes significant power while
| off. If I leave it on the charger so that it will be ready when
| I need it, it seems to charge to full, then stop charging until
| the battery drains a bit, and then repeats that cycles.
|
| The result is after a couple years of sporadic use, the battery
| was degraded enough that now just using it for light browsing
| I'm lucky if I get 30 minutes of battery time. So now it is
| pretty much relegated to only being usable when hooked to
| external power.
|
| I'm never buying another Surface product. And I'm not buying
| any Windows laptops or tablets unless there is some reasonable
| way to _definitely_ turn them all the way off and have them
| stay that way.
| cryptonector wrote:
| The lack of respect for users is really shocking lately.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| It's "for our security," dontchaknow.
| xyst wrote:
| I feel using Windows for anything other than gaming is just
| going to give you more headaches than just learning to use a
| unix based OS. Most applications are available on multiple
| platforms and alternatives exist for those few applications
| that are not available.
|
| In my opinion, the only reason why Windows is so prevalent in
| the "enterprise" world is because Microsoft provides support
| contracts to make it easier to adopt. Problems with your
| windows laptop? Send it off to Microsoft or open a business
| priority ticket to have them work on it for you. No need to
| hire an internal IT team.
| lrvick wrote:
| I even dropped Windows for gaming.
|
| Almost all Steam games work flawlessly out of the box now
| thanks to extensive investment in Proton.
|
| That is why the Valve is confident shipping the steam deck
| with Linux.
| dontbesquare wrote:
| Thank you for giving me the courage to go this route. The
| only reason I'm on Windows at this point is for gaming.
| Time to give Proton another try. I can't wait for my Steam
| Deck to arrive next year! =)
| milesvp wrote:
| Some games will have issues due largely to drivers. But I
| stopped booting to my win7 partition at least a year and
| a half ago, and gaming on steam has only gotten better.
| Just know that games with anti cheat tend to not work.
| Lucky for me the only multiplayer game I play much of is
| Overwatch on lutris. And lutris is still supported enough
| by blizzard that it won't trigger a ban by itself.
| jturpin wrote:
| I have just recently done the same thing, Pop OS with
| Steam, on my gaming PC. It works perfectly so far and I'm
| so thrilled - CS Go, Planet Coaster, and most recently Gas
| Station Simulator have been playing great for me. It gives
| me a lot of hope that the Steam deck is going to be a real
| game changer.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| True but I have to say Microsoft support is pretty awful.
| Most of the tickets that aren't trivial (and most aren't
| since we have pretty experienced people) end in endless "give
| us more logs / try one of the many things we've asked to try
| before again" loops until we either find the cause ourselves
| or a workaround.
|
| I know business premium support is a selling point (ironic
| because it actually costs money on its own) which is good for
| the CYA of top management. Someone to blame when stuff goes
| wrong. But it doesn't really solve issues on the floor and
| Microsoft isn't alone in that.
| lrem wrote:
| I'm a hobbyist photographer. Not enough energy for the hobby
| to learn new software, so I'm stuck with Lightroom. And since
| I didn't want another Mac, I'm on Windows now for my personal
| laptop.
|
| It's ok. Not as snazzy as MacOS. But security/privacy
| concerns excluded, feels less headachey than Linux (which I'm
| also using in parallel, since Slackware 7).
| Miraste wrote:
| I'm not unfamiliar with Linux and I've been looking into
| switching recently after a long string of Windows "features"
| causing problems, but unfortunately gaming isn't the only
| area Microsoft has an advantage. Linux _still_ doesn 't
| support HDR, for instance. It also has a lot of problems with
| desktop compositing, because the switch from X to Wayland is
| at the point where neither of them are good options. That's
| not even getting into enterprise software compatibility.
|
| For programming, by all means use Linux instead of Windows,
| it's better. For anything else, it's still not there yet.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Why is anyone interested in HDR? 16M colors should be
| enough for anyone.
|
| I do have minor issues when scaling my 4K screen to a lower
| resolution, and starting a fullscreen game, but that's
| about it.
| gbba wrote:
| I really like the form factor, but my Surface Pro 7 has really
| let me down lately. It's about a year old now and fully
| patched, but the battery barely lasts 4 hours, camera is buggy
| (Windows Hello stops working), and randomly shuts down.
| satysin wrote:
| This was the reason I returned my Surface Book 2 back in 2018.
| I got it out of my laptop bag one day and burnt my fingers it
| was so hot. Fans at 100% and it was sitting at 99C just one
| degree away from shutdown.
|
| That plus a whole host of annoying software bugs with the
| detachable design, keyboard backlight not working until I
| reboot, etc. was just a horrible experience so ended up getting
| a refund and buying a MacBook Pro when the 2018 models came
| out. Sure it has the crappy butterfly keyboard but three years
| later and that MacBook Pro is still a fantastic machine that I
| haven't had a single issue with. Cost the same as the Surface
| Book 2 as well.
|
| The new Surface Laptop Studio looks interesting but I am very
| hesitant to buy Microsoft hardware again. It looks nice but is
| plagued with issues even today from what friends and colleagues
| tell me. Real shame. Hopefully things are better with the new
| models announced this week but I will be sitting back and
| waiting a few months to see how they are in the real world
| rather than a 3 day review.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| Far be it for me to defend Microsoft here, but I feel like if
| you leave unsaved documents open overnight, you are asking for
| trouble. Why a person would ever walk away from a computer
| without saving is beyond me.
|
| This whole post is actually pretty confusing to me. I don't use
| Windows that frequently myself, but my work laptop, my wife's
| laptop, my child's laptop, and my Surface Pro 1 all have
| Windows 10 on them, and this sort of thing has never happened
| to me. But I do my updates in a timely manner, shut down my PCs
| regularly, and only use sleep for temporary moments when I'm
| away from my PC.
|
| I just feel like a lot of the problems people have with Windows
| 10 aren't really in the software, but are between the keyboard
| and chair.
| elcomet wrote:
| > Why a person would ever walk away from a computer without
| saving is beyond me.
|
| Because on other computers it just works. And if the computer
| stops it will re-open your unsaved documents.
| jlund-molfese wrote:
| But I don't think it's an unrealistic expectation. A Linux
| server might have uptime measured in years, and the same
| thing is possible for a desktop (maybe you use your desktop
| as a home server, too)
| fxtentacle wrote:
| > Why a person would ever walk away from a computer without
| saving is beyond me.
|
| In my case, it was mostly executables that I'm in the process
| of debugging and stepping through. I'm not aware of any
| debugger which can save and restore open file handles.
|
| > I just feel like a lot of the problems people have with
| Windows 10 aren't really in the software, but are between the
| keyboard and chair.
|
| I would have argued just like you before I encountered the
| cursed tablet. That thing had an integrated battery, so no
| matter what you tried, it could still turn on by itself if it
| wanted to. The only reliable way to make it stop making
| noises in the middle of the night was to thoroughly drain its
| battery.
|
| That said, the Dell XPS support post that I commented on is
| by itself pretty detailed about all the issues that Dell
| machines are having with Windows 10. I think you'll believe
| me that Dell wouldn't publicly post that unless they had a
| lot of support requests related to it. So it's apparently a
| widespread issue.
| Terr_ wrote:
| > executables that I'm in the process of debugging
|
| In my case, virtual-machines. When Windows 10 decided it
| had to reboot, it would kill them dead. You can't quicksave
| those, and even if you did they have a higher-than-normal
| chance of not coming back up cleanly.
| athenot wrote:
| > It'll even install updates at night and then make reboot
| sounds to wake you up. And the next day, your unsaved open
| documents are all gone.
|
| That reminds me of last time I upgraded my mac by doing the
| transfer from one machine to the other. When the new mac booted
| for the first time, it had the same unsaved documents I had
| open on the old one. Things have come a long way.
| fitzroy wrote:
| Both proud and embarrassed to say I've had 150+ open Safari
| tabs persisting across three Mac laptops and five years of OS
| updates.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Yes, it usually works on Mac. And then you get used to it
| working, which makes it even more frustrating when it doesn't
| work anymore ^^
| radicalbyte wrote:
| This is the literal reason I switched to OSX. I dislike the
| impractical design of Macbooks - horrible connectivity and no
| way to swap batteries.
|
| However the combination of 15 hrs battery life + closing the
| lid and it not melting a hole in my bag trumps any negatives.
| mjaniczek wrote:
| One interesting tidbit is that Macbooks will (don't know
| since when) start booting up if you press any key after
| having shut the laptop down.
|
| That's a bummer when you want to go clean your keyboard and
| don't want the laptop running at the same time.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| Forget the overheating -- the fact that Macs will save all
| your work when shutting down, and will refuse to shut down if
| this is not possible (for instance if some app that doesn't
| support autosave (MS office) has unsaved work, or if there
| are terminal jobs running). Can't imagine how anyone
| tolerates their computer just obliterating their work.
| muttled wrote:
| Made me think about a system we have to enter notes in at
| work. It'll kick you out with 10 minutes of inactivity. But
| it won't tell you it's kicked you out. You just go to save
| your notes and it puts you to a login screen, discarding
| everything you've typed.
| oauea wrote:
| So just like Windows since... 7? Or something like that.
|
| I can guarantee you that a Mac will still shut down when
| its battery is empty. Unfortunately Apple hasn't yet
| cracked unlimited power.
| fphhotchips wrote:
| You're kidding right? I _hate_ that behaviour of MacOS. If
| I told the OS to shut down /restart, I meant it. Kill
| everything and get on with it, I shouldn't have to babysit.
|
| If I told it to update, I didn't mean "oh pretty please but
| if it's too hard don't worry about it", I meant "I know
| this ii. update is going to take an hour for a point
| release for some reason, but I'm going for a walk now - go
| ahead so IT gets off my back".
|
| Also I've had many issues with my macbook
| overheating/discharging in my bag because I hit sleep, it
| looked like it was sleeping, but it was still on/woke up.
| Admittedly not a huge amount because of COVID but still.
| BluePen8 wrote:
| Same, I was in university and kept showing up to class with
| my Dell Inspiron having killed it's own battery in my bag
| regardless how carefully I put it into sleep/hibernate.
|
| Or I'd find it nearly dead and burning hot, fans spun up
| wildly, in the process of cooking it's own motherboard.
|
| It heat suicided itself through 2 motherboards during the 1
| year warranty.
|
| I have my complaints about MacBooks, but at least I had a
| laptop I could count on being reliable and ready to work when
| I showed up to class every day.
|
| I couldn't trust the Dell, making it absolutely worthless.
| radicalbyte wrote:
| The best thing with Dell is when you've shut it down
| properly, but it somehow finds a way to turn itself back on
| in your bag. Then when you get home your bag is 50c and
| battery dead.
| toast0 wrote:
| Just make sure you close Outlook before you close your lid.
| Not that Outlook is a good choice for mail, but corporations
| seem to like it, but at least in my experience, it somehow
| signals Mac OS to drain the battery.
| davrosthedalek wrote:
| Be careful. My Macbook Pro cooked it's display twice. Some
| program made it not go to sleep when I closed the lid, I put
| it in my backpack, and it overheated the display so much that
| I had yellow-brownish spots (which followed gravity over
| time). No way to check if it's sleeping when the lid is
| closed, because reasons...
| ganoushoreilly wrote:
| We have a few users that leave clamshell mode while working
| at home and the past year never opened their laptops. Same
| thing. Permanent heat stain on the display in the form of
| the keyboard. Granted that's more than just sleeping
| issues, but it's definitely something that happens.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| I once had told Caffeine not to sleep my 2014 MBPr when the
| lid was shut and later put it in my backpack.
|
| Why the frak doesn't the laptop have an over temp shutdown
| feature? iPhones so, trying leaving one in the sun for a
| bit.
| cooljacob204 wrote:
| Caffeine shouldn't prevent it from sleeping anymore
| anymore unless you have an HDMI plugged in it.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Yes and Macs have worked like that since the PPC days.
| Display closed + no external display connected = sleep.
| Removing said display will also make it sleep.
|
| I guess it's a bug or some monitoring service that
| crashed.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Perhaps it was Amphetamine with the relevant setting to
| prevent sleep with built-in display closed.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| This happened to my iPhone 1 too. Caused a really ugly burn
| in the display :'(
|
| Of course iOS wasn't as stable as it is now.. I don't think
| this will still happen.
| jmarcher wrote:
| I always assumed those were the result of my cycling
| backpack putting too much pressure on the screen. It's
| basically bow-like structure to keep the bag off my back.
|
| I do have my MacBooks cooking themselves in my backpack
| every so often too.
|
| Basically, every MacBook's I had in the past > 10 years
| ended with that issue.
|
| Mystery solved!
| dubya wrote:
| I really miss the "snoring" light that Macbooks used to
| have, though more to tell if the computer is actually
| waking up.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I really don't get why they left the light off them. It's
| not something that takes any space at all and they can
| even make it invisible when off with their micro holes
| like they did with the old Bluetooth keyboard.
|
| Sometimes it seems Apple is just minimalist for the sake
| of it. Because this is really a useful feature.
| Groxx wrote:
| I doubt lasering those holes is _particularly_ cheap,
| i.e. likely much (much) more than the cost of a big hole
| with an LED.
|
| But I do very much like them, and would happily pay a bit
| to get it back.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| They could manage it in a $80 keyboard when that tech was
| new and probably more expensive, I'd think they could do
| it in a $1500 laptop :)
|
| And a hole with a plastic insert would be fine for me
| too. It wouldn't be as minimalist but not doing it at all
| is much worse IMO.
| samstave wrote:
| "Not melting a hole"
|
| Ha! While not related to the bag issue, I had a 15" MBP
| literally catch fire in my bed while I was asleep.
|
| I fell asleep wat hing Netflix or some such and the macbook
| caught fire and woke me up.
|
| It was in the recall batch for batteries at that time.
|
| I took it to apple flagship SF store.
|
| They had the FN machine for two months then came back and
| said that at some point the moisture sensor went off and due
| to this reason they would not honor the battery recall or
| address the fact it caught on fire and the "apologized" for
| the potential "safety hazaard"
|
| They told me my option was to buy a new one, or take it to a
| 3ed party repair place and have it repaired for more than the
| machine was worth.
|
| I haven't bought another mac since, and I have switched from
| iPhones entirely, even though I have had an iPhone since day
| one.
| dboreham wrote:
| Were you binge watching "Halt and Catch Fire"?
| samstave wrote:
| Ironically, that was about the same time it came out...
| Phileosopher wrote:
| Same sentiment, and that's how I found Linux. I've now made
| it a solemn vow to convert every daily driver I have to dual-
| boot Win/Linux when it's a >100GB HD.
| ayushnix wrote:
| Ah right, Linux, the platform where suspend and resume
| doesn't even work and hibernation is a mess.
|
| AMD https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD
| -S2id...
|
| s2idle is broken and I have an AMD thinkpad with deep sleep
| and even that doesn't suspend 80% of the time.
|
| Intel (search for 'deep' and 's2idle')
| https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-
| framework...
|
| I already know the replies I might get but just wanted to
| get this out there. My laptop is now on 24x7 because I
| don't know if it will suspend or completely freeze.
| Groxx wrote:
| This has been my experience as well, with a fairly wide
| variety of nixes/bsds/etc and a half a dozen different
| machines.
|
| Now I just disable it completely and tell it to shut down
| when I close the lid, and wait like 15s. If the fans and
| lights don't stop "soon", I know it's having problems
| turning off. It's much better than the random freezes, or
| boiling alive in a backpack before draining all battery
| power.
| [deleted]
| brianwawok wrote:
| My XPS 13 on Ubuntu while sleping randomly turns on in my
| backpack and tries to melt a hole/burns the battery to 0.
| So I think at least SOME of it might be hardware related.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| The takeaway from this thread is that there is no
| platform safe from this issue.
| laurent92 wrote:
| Should airplanes forbid PC laptops?
|
| It's more serious than laptops committing suicide in
| bags. It's, anything with a high-energy battery can short
| itself and cause a fire. Worse, it could be malware or
| hardware. At this point I am surprised the vulnerability
| hasn't been used by anyone.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Airplanes have bags/boxes to throw li-ion batteries into
| and extinguish any particular fire.
|
| The law is that you can only bring aboard Li-ion
| batteries of size 100 watt-hrs or smaller on any airplane
| (https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-
| screening/whatcanibring/...).
|
| I think the airline crews are confident they can handle
| 100 watt-hours worth of burning, but no more than that!
| oliv3r wrote:
| but very easily fixed as written above :)
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The probability of the issue happening seems to be
| meaningfully far less on certain operating systems than
| others.
| reilly3000 wrote:
| *except Macs. I daily drive my desktop with Linux and
| occasionally game with Windows (it's set up to be my
| driver as well with WSL2, but that happens rarely). I'll
| only use Mac laptops. I've screwed around with others,
| but for about 18 years they have been the only ones that
| have been reliable, with good build quality, and no
| molten backpacks yet.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| There are some people reporting problems with Macs on
| this thread...
|
| What is bad, because if there were one platform that
| would avoid this problem it would be Macs. But anyway, my
| phone does that once in a while too... Phones also
| shouldn't do it.
|
| It's not even a hard problem to solve. There is a single
| piece of code that wakes a device up, you just have to
| not call it everywhere. If you don't control all the
| code, just require some kind of permission, and don't go
| granting it to the team that writes the system updater.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I've had nothing but problems with Apple's "Power Nap"
| functionality. I remember three discrete issues with my
| 2014 MBP (Quartz would randomly crash out of naps when
| connected to external displays, the topcase frequently
| felt mysteriously warm and my media controls would freak
| out forcing me to close spotify/firefox before closing
| it) Ironically, the only time I've seen it behaving as-
| intended was when I had my T460p running MacOS with photo
| analysis disabled. I'm guessing it's an ACPI issue, since
| Apple's track record with the technology is shaky.
| wldlyinaccurate wrote:
| I've had the opposite experience with Macbooks. WiFi
| randomly dropping out, battery dying overnight while the
| laptop is closed, external display settings not being
| persisted, randomly switching from my external microphone
| to the built-in one halfway through a call... Sometimes
| reading through these threads I feel like the only person
| in the world who has somehow had three faulty Macbooks in
| a row.
|
| I've now had three generations of XPS 13 with Ubuntu.
| They're not perfect (the battery drains over 3 or 4 days
| instead of overnight) but overall my experience has been
| much better.
| switchbak wrote:
| Same here on an XPS 15, damn thing was so hot I was
| worried about it catching fire.
| oliv3r wrote:
| As I understood it, it's an ACPI configuration, more or
| less 'forced' by Microsoft, to ensure this cool new S0 is
| the default. See [0] [1] and [2]. The fix/work-around is
| to tell the kernel to not do that, and just use
| traditional S3 sleep.
|
| Adding `mem_sleep_default=deep` to your kernel cmdline
| should fix it. Been doing this on my XPS13 for 3 years
| now and it's fine.
|
| [0] https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199689
|
| [1]
| https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/XPS-13-9370-battery-
| drain...
|
| [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Dell/comments/8b6eci/xp_13_9
| 370_bat...
| theoj wrote:
| What's super annoying is that Dell does not provide a BIOS
| option to switch between connected standby and S3. It's likely
| a cost saving decision because S3 is more complex to implement
| and having both options even more so. There are also some
| rumors that Dell may be under contractual agreement with MS to
| only support connected standby.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| I've always had success with hibernate. Does this stuff bypass
| hibernate now too?
| Arrath wrote:
| I was chasing this issue with my previous desktop which, at the
| time, was in my bedroom. I've always preferred sleep/hibernate
| over shutting it down but when Windows decided it knew better
| and to constantly wake it from sleep in the middle of the night
| to do updates, filling my room with light from all the case/fan
| leds, I was about ready to go Office Space on the thing. What
| was worse, it wouldn't go back to sleep after the updates were
| complete.
|
| Even worse, Microsoft made it so very hard to hunt down all the
| various settings and registry flags to disable that behavior,
| AND it reverted to those same settings after every major
| update. I absolutely despised that desktop for a while.
| qazwse_ wrote:
| I had the exact same experience. Nothing like being woken up
| at 2 am because Windows decided now is a good time to update.
| It's one of the major reasons I decided to switch to desktop
| Linux permanently.
| chii wrote:
| > Nothing like being woken up at 2 am because Windows
| decided now is a good time to update.
|
| while i understand the intention behind automatic updates,
| i feel it's an anti-user design. It is based on the
| assumption (a bad one) that the user isn't intelligent
| enough to do the update at a time suitable for them. It
| assumes that the windows design and dev team knows better.
| It takes control away from the user.
|
| Rather than forcing automatic updates, it is better to
| teach the user why updates are important. Education beats
| subversion.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Yes I had a Surface Pro 3 with Linux on it and it still woke up
| in my bag sometimes. I'd take it out and it'd be running,
| boiling hot and battery almost depleted.
|
| I never figured out what caused it, maybe it was something in
| the firmware. Or something bumping the power button? However it
| was in a padded laptop compartment on its own.This was actually
| from full-off. Not even standby.
|
| What didn't help was that I used LUKS full disk encryption so
| it would be sitting there waiting for a password and there was
| no sleep timeout.
|
| In the end I found the SP3 was just not great for Linux, I had
| so many hardware issues. Sometimes I'd detach the keyboard and
| reattach, and it'd just not work. Or the pen would stop working
| or the rotation etc. Mind you this is around the time it came
| out. So a good while ago.
| LambdaTrain wrote:
| I used a dell inspiron laptop years ago. As its fan became
| broken, sometimes it could make noise that people can hear from
| miles away. And yes, it was scarying when Windows 10 auto
| reboot and updated at 3AM.
| alexeiz wrote:
| My Windows laptop (Lenovo Ideapad S940) ran out of batter while
| presumably in the sleep mode in my backpack on multiple
| occasions. It got so ridiculous that now I listen to its fan
| after closing the laptop lid to make sure it really really in
| the sleep mode. I even went as far as trying to figure out how
| to revert back to the old S3 sleep mode instead of the new
| Windows 10 "connected standby", but it turned out to be quite a
| task (and I think it broke something else, so I had to revert
| things back).
| 1432132143 wrote:
| same story men, i got on my thinkpad lilted red led on front,
| but still its happens without reasons windows 7,8 many times
| also wekup by keyboard is disbaled
| cies wrote:
| XPS should be "developer laptops". They even come with Linux. So
| I tried two.
|
| Never experienced a more faulty keyboard on a computer in my
| life. Hanging keys, firmware updates that never really fixed the
| problem, support forums full of same questions. I'll never buy
| one again.
|
| Too bad as I wanted to support "big brand w/ Linux preinstalled".
| julianlam wrote:
| Hanging keys... I had that issue when I bought my last XPS
| secondhand. A tech came out and replaced the keyboard, and that
| was that.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| " I wanted to support "big brand w/ Linux preinstalled""
|
| Look at Lenovo maybe :)
| mrweasel wrote:
| Just heads up: Danish cities can't buy Lenovo laptops, at
| least certain models, because Lenovo can't guarantee that
| they are not made using Uyghur slave labour.
|
| So if that's important to you, maybe don't buy Lenovo.
| biktor_gj wrote:
| On the other hand, I have a XPS 15 9500 I use with Linux all
| day and never had an issue with anything. Always suspends,
| never wakes up by itself, no hardware issues... My work 16"
| MBP on the other hand killed the battery after one week in
| "suspend" when I was on vacation, probably due to the Power
| Nap functionality, which sounds pretty much like the Modern
| Standby being talked on.
| cies wrote:
| Got one from them now. But not a Linux pre-installed model,
| sadly.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Even a total Linux noob like myself (never touched it in my
| life) that installed his last OS like over a decade ago got
| Ubuntu on a X1E Gen 2 in around 30 minutes. No issues,
| Windows stays for the odd things that don't work under
| Linux (some Steam games, mostly...).
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| So has anyone's bag actually caught fire due to this?
|
| If so, can we put it in a Dell commercial? Just grab any old Dell
| advertisement stock footage and dub it with fire alarm noises and
| a spouse yelling in the distance "honey, your room caught fire
| again!"
| black_puppydog wrote:
| FWIW, Dell replaced my mainboard on site and in a timely way, and
| without asking any stupid questions, especially not about whether
| it had been in a bag or the like...
|
| Once I convinced them that no, their crappy machine is _not_
| broken because I 'm running Linux on it.
|
| I made the mistake of buying a 7390 _2in1_ just before the
| pandemic and got stuck with it. It 's my favourite personal
| soapbox ever since. Needless to say, I won't be buying Dell again
| either...
|
| Edit: there, a lengthy rant about this piece of crap and how
| misguided it is to give it the near-same model number as their
| linux flagship:
| https://ssb.muchmuch.coffee/%25xCjWwwuseVVLq%2F4FYbf1KUc5vHz...
| cududa wrote:
| My 2017 MBP that was fully spec'd out is both the most expensive
| and worst laptop I've ever owned.
|
| -Rarely ever goes to sleep
|
| -It's the same model Facebook returned a few thousand of because
| it randomly voltage surges the USB-C ports and fries stuff
| plugged into it. Apple refuses to acknowledge this, even though a
| bad voltage surge blew out the left speaker.
|
| -Keyboards been replaced four times
|
| -NVRAM needs to be reset weekly
|
| -Charging it is super fun. If it still has a charge, you get to
| randomly pick a USB-C port to plug the charger in. If it's not
| that one, power cycle the charger for 30 seconds and try a new
| port
|
| -Given it never goes to sleep and has no charging indicator, when
| it's dead (most of the time I open it) you get to play the
| charging port roulette, except you have to keep it plugged in a
| few minutes to see if it gets a charge, before power cycling the
| charging brick.
|
| -A small half circle of glass popped out of the bottom of the
| display, where it meets the hinge when it was running an intense
| CPU load
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I'm missing the relevance here? Are you just trying to point
| out that MacBooks are also imperfect?
|
| I had a 2017 as well. And before that a 2013. And since then a
| 2019 16-inch and a 2020 M1. Yes, the 2017 sucked balls in ways
| that I can't even begin to count. The 2013 was f*cking
| flawless. I've similarly had almost zero problems with the 2019
| 16-inch MBP or my 2020 M1. There's just something especially
| crappy about the 2017s, and I doubt you'd find many people
| who'd seriously disagree about that.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| Yep the 2017 was bad. The 2013s were very good, but the 2019
| 16-inch... I had 3 replacements and it still sucked; it got
| so hot I could bake pizzas on it and no matter how Apple
| tried to blame me (my usage patterns), when I got to the
| store they couldn't make it stop and replaced it. My friends
| (not of great statistical value, I know) had exactly the same
| issues. In the end I got the m1 (not pro) and it is actually
| _cold_ all the time which is unpleasant on the wrists in
| winter. I don 't use my laptop for very intensive things;
| even my programming stuff doesn't take a lot of power so I
| have no clue why the 19 kept blowing up, but I read online
| it's a pretty common issue.
| toxik wrote:
| The entire fucking point in a laptop is to be portable. If you
| _have_ to shut it down completely before putting it in a bag,
| it's not a laptop as any sane person expects it to have that
| ability.
|
| It's absolutely astonishing that Dell, Microsoft and friends
| leave walk over in the laptop industry like this. "Oh we decided
| users don't really want to be able to close the lid and go home."
| ??????
| joeberon wrote:
| Not going to lie but Apple have put pretty high standards on
| what people expect to work with all laptops nowadays, and many
| OEMs seem unable or unwilling to try to catch up.
| Hamuko wrote:
| It's not really Apple alone. Everyone has a smartphone and
| everyone expects it to just work when they put their
| smartphone display to sleep and then stuff the phone in their
| jeans pocket.
| reitzensteinm wrote:
| I have a 2020 MBP, and it's as shitty as any high end Windows
| laptop I've used.
|
| The thermals are awful under moderate CPU use, the fan spins
| when using an external monitor, the battery vampire drains
| when it's shut for an extended time instead of saving memory
| to disk and shutting off.
|
| I think what really happens is people compare $1k Dells with
| $3k Apples.
|
| I'm looking forward to an M1X MBP, though. That may
| legitimately outclass any Windows device.
| kube-system wrote:
| I'm sure that's part of the reason they've decided to make
| their own CPUs. My 2020 M1 has thermals similar to my
| iPhone.
| joeberon wrote:
| I've never had any of that happen with either of my $1000
| MacBook Pros, from 2013 and 2017 respectively. Now I just
| got a 2020 M1 MBP, we'll see how that goes but it seems
| great so far
| ubermonkey wrote:
| I'm along-term Mac laptop user, and your experience doesn't
| track to mine at all.
|
| I've never had one of mine get hot in a bag. Wake from
| sleep is nearly instant, and always has been.
|
| I will cop to hearing the fans more often since I switched
| to running two 4K screens with it, but I'm not sore about
| that.
| reitzensteinm wrote:
| But I didn't list either of those issues? Are you
| replying to the correct person?
| RandallBrown wrote:
| > I have a 2020 MBP, and it's as shitty as any high end
| Windows laptop I've used.
|
| The whole post is about Dell XPS laptops not being able
| to be used in a bag so when you said "it's _as_ shitty "
| we could assume you were also talking about those issues.
| rawbot wrote:
| Same thing with my MBP from 2018.
| FlyingAvatar wrote:
| Regarding the problem discussed in the article, the Dell
| could easily cost $3,000, and the problem would not exist a
| $1000 MacBook, even an Intel one.
|
| In this case, I think it's Apple's proper prioritization of
| features. Probably also that Apple is able to do this
| because they don't have to work on dozens of different
| models at the same time.
|
| It's amazing to me that no major PC manufacturers have
| really done this yet.
| campl3r wrote:
| The problem discussed in the article happens for MacBooks
| too
| cameron_b wrote:
| Background tasks on Mac laptops can create a similar
| problem, but they are largely software created, and
| rarely out-of-the-box scenarios. Enterprise security
| tools like endpoint protection scanners and VPN clients
| made available for Mac but seemingly built in a different
| power state mentality have been shown to interrupt sleep
| mode and drain battery. I've also heard mixed reports of
| different generations behaving badly, and I haven't used
| all of them. In college my MBP lived in my backpack. You
| finish a class, close the lid watch the light change and
| away you go. Nothing will wake it until you open it.
|
| Now with enterprise scanning tools running for "security"
| they check in daily or hourly to look for new threat
| signatures or what have you, no matter the power state,
| no matter the network state, no matter if its in a bag.
| Likely because the bulk of the tool was just ported from
| a world where you turn it off or the computer isn't off.
| jeremyjh wrote:
| Source? I've been putting my 2017 MBP in a bag daily for
| 4+ years now and never had this issue.
| uberduper wrote:
| I had the exact overheating in a bag problem described
| here with my 2012 15" MBP within days of buying it. It
| had all sorts of sleep problems for a very long time.
| reitzensteinm wrote:
| Don't get me wrong, the Windows laptops I've used had
| their own list of things too.
|
| The MBP from my perspective is just more of the same. Not
| better, not worse, but different.
| post_break wrote:
| I have had all the same issues with intel macs. My M1
| macbook pro fixed every single one of those issues. It
| feels like a laptop with a nuclear reactor for a battery
| that creates absolutely no heat.
| skerit wrote:
| My husband always had the same problem with his Macbook
| Pro. Slow, unresponsive and loud as hell under any light
| load.
|
| Things are a bit better now that he bought an iMac, but for
| that price I could have assembled 2 excellent desktop PCs
| with a good screen.
| michaelanckaert wrote:
| Posted in another comment thread, but my MacBook Pro
| (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014) has been awesome! No issues, no
| repairs or replacements and still going strong.
|
| Maybe I got lucky but I really hope my next machine
| (probably going to buy the next 16" pro) will last as long.
| toxik wrote:
| I have the same laptop, it works pretty decently.
| However: YOU WILL NOT HAVE MACOS MONTEREY, because Apple
| decided seven years is enough.
|
| Manufactured obsolescence.
| lelandfe wrote:
| I don't think 7 years of major OS upgrades and support is
| really a good example of planned obsolescence...
| toxik wrote:
| Luckily I didn't say planned obsolescence, I said
| manufactured - because that's precisely what it is, Apple
| is well known for this type of behavior. Introduce candy,
| don't allow old hardware to run it, pretend like it's a
| hardware issue. Problem is, they do this for features
| that demonstrably don't require better hardware, such as
| the animations in the weather app for the iPhone.
|
| It's very obvious what it's about, make "old" hardware
| feel outdated and force the customer's hand.
| lelandfe wrote:
| I mean, again, 7 years is a long enough timeline that I
| can't really feel any negative opinions here. And "force"
| is much less relevant if we're discussing what you call
| "candy." Apple still pushes security updates for old
| macOS versions, so obsolescence isn't even the right word
| to use, right?
|
| Inducements to buy new hardware is a company's life
| blood, and the methodology you've outlined seems like the
| tamest way to do so.
| diffeomorphism wrote:
| Why not?
|
| Windows 7 for example had a support lifetime of about 10
| years. Any red hat release has a support lifetime of 10
| years plus another 3 or 4 years of extended support for
| releases since 2010.
|
| I agree that 7 years is not little, but it is not much
| either.
| lelandfe wrote:
| You're comparing software and hardware. I can comfortably
| say that most stock 7 year old laptops would not do well
| running Windows 10.
|
| But more to the point, it is a true rarity to find
| manufacturers that provide support that far out for their
| devices. If we're bemoaning planned obsolescence, Apple
| is not the poster boy for it (in my opinion)
| kube-system wrote:
| Well this is not really comparing equivalents.
|
| Apple too has a good track record of releasing security
| updates for versions of OSX that will run on 10 year old
| hardware, regardless of whether you can update that
| hardware to the latest OS.
|
| Many PC OEMs completely abandon security updates for
| drivers and firmware when their systems go out of
| warranty, if not immediately after they're discontinued.
| I had this issue with my last Thinkpad which was less
| than 2 years old.
| UweSchmidt wrote:
| That's the pre-2016 MBP life. Still very happy with mine
| from 2013. The new M1-based ones are probably going to be
| good again, just in time for an upgrade, but we'll see.
| BoxOfRain wrote:
| I'm still dailying a 2015 MacBook Pro and I've literally
| only started considering upgrading in the next year or
| so. Apple have their faults, but the hardware isn't bad
| at all in my opinion.
| weberer wrote:
| >Apple have put pretty high standards on what people expect
| to work with all laptops nowadays
|
| Linux too. I have a Dell XPS Developer edition with Ubuntu.
| When I close the lid, it simply goes to sleep and doesn't
| wake up again until I tell it to.
| Macha wrote:
| This is absolutely a problem on some Macs too:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28304628
| mjhoy wrote:
| Does it void your warranty, though?
| joeberon wrote:
| No, because for macs it's a bug, while for dells it's
| literally the engineered behaviour of the device
| liminal wrote:
| I have to charge my Macbook using the port on one side and
| not the other because its thermal management isn't good.
| siva7 wrote:
| It's funny how the competition tries to copy the success of
| the Macbook line but fails on such an elementar design. I
| really wish they would succeed and make laptops not made by
| Apple suck less.
| joeberon wrote:
| I guess it's difficult when you don't control the full
| stack. Windows is a bit of a mess nowadays to be honest,
| you will probably get better luck with a linux laptop
| chriswarbo wrote:
| Apple laptops have their own problems, like delivering mild
| electric shocks from their exposed-metal cases. Unfortunately
| the trend of copying Apple has lead to other manufacturers
| having exposed-metal cases, and inheriting this flaw.
| toxik wrote:
| I had an electrical engineer tell me this was more or less
| inevitable. I thought that sounded very strange.
| avianlyric wrote:
| I suspect that without complete galvanic isolation (which
| would require a transformer in the power supply), you
| can't avoid this phenomenon.
|
| Although why you can avoid it probably depends on what
| country you're in. But as a general rule it pretty tricky
| to get a true "zero volt" reference out of an AC socket.
| (You can't know if the neutral is actually zero-volts, or
| just a different phase, or if a fault elsewhere has
| caused your neutral to drift slightly. Equally you can't
| rely on the ground, because if you started leaking
| current down it, it would trip the ground current leak
| protector and turn your house off).
|
| Which means the ground the power supply presents to the
| device is alway gonna be a little bit off.
| toxik wrote:
| But laptop chargers _do_ have transformers, and inductors
| for that matter -- they're switching power supplies! I
| actually had a problem with this on my MacBook to the
| degree that I would simply connect a wire between the
| protective earth and a radiator I had. It worked,
| strangely enough. It's also perfectly safe to do.
| avianlyric wrote:
| I stand corrected, the power supplies you find for
| electronics do have transformers in them that provide
| galvanic isolation.
|
| I guess I've spent too much time looking at high voltage
| (measured in kV) power electronics used in HVDC
| transmission, it didn't occur to me that household
| electronics would use a slightly different approach.
| joeberon wrote:
| Yes, I have noticed this too. Still, to me that is very
| minor compared to some people's descriptions of literally
| red hot XPS's in their backpacks here...
| blablabla123 wrote:
| Yes and no. Speaking of hibernation/standby/wakeup, that just
| works (TM). Also the chassis is more robust than classical PC
| laptops - although many manufacturers have catched up. On the
| other hand the keyboards have mixed quality, CPU/GPU model
| and choice has been questionable (below average performance).
| Also other manufacturers don't seem to have problems building
| "always-on" systems when it comes to tablets or smartphones.
| Because this is essentially what modern Macbooks are, some
| weird fusion of a laptop and a standard consumer appliance.
| (It works like a stereo) So I'd argue Apple has been
| focussing on the latter and ignored performance/storage
| requirements which is actually more practical if you really
| carry the laptop around a lot.
| [deleted]
| sethammons wrote:
| My 2015 mbp is usually solid. Twice I've put it in my bag
| only to take it our 45 minutes later being too hot to handle.
| [deleted]
| quicklime wrote:
| Next thing you know, they'll be telling you that you can't use
| the device on top of your lap...
| hef19898 wrote:
| Try playing games when your legs block the GPU fans! Only
| question is whether your legs become insufferably hot before
| the GPU shuts down! In my case, it was usually the GPU
| vel0city wrote:
| You joke but I definitely remember seeing "notebook PCs"
| coming with notices to not use them on your lap because of
| excessive heat to both the device and your lap.
| gotstad wrote:
| I will never buy a Dell XPS laptop again. The exterior build
| quality seems very good, but the internals are such a mess.
|
| I cannot count how many times I have been biking home from work
| and heard in my headphones "Two devices connected", realizing
| that my Dell XPS had woken up and would - once again - be red hot
| when I arrived home and pulled it out of my bag.
| mekkkkkk wrote:
| Just curious, why would you keep putting the standby laptop in
| your backpack after this had occurred more than once? It sounds
| like hardware russian roulette.
| harlekein wrote:
| I've had three generations of the XPS 13. The first I had had a
| few issues, but fixable. (Even though I agree, this shouldn't
| even have occurred) The second one was flawless. The last one
| was worse than the first and it's my last.
|
| I've set my sights on Lenovo now. X1 Carbon is supposed to be
| really good for Linux and you can buy it with Ubuntu or no OS
| installed.
| lozenge wrote:
| I returned my X1 Carbon due to unsolvable audio
| latency/jitter issues on Windows. Out of the box, just
| watching YouTube was impossible.
| yread wrote:
| The Carbon had its share of issues
|
| https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-
| Laptops/Lenov...
|
| The latest BIOS supposedly fixes most of them
| claaams wrote:
| I hate x1 carbons with windows. The t series has been much
| better but I think carbones are ok with ubuntu.
| [deleted]
| gnopgnip wrote:
| I bike to work with a dell xps 9343 and don't have any more
| problems with it waking from sleep unexpectedly. powercfg
| -lastwake and powercfg -waketimers can show what is causing the
| computer to wake up, and you can disable some of the modern
| standby settings like wake words with cortana or bluetooth. The
| same thing can happen with any other laptop, the default
| intel/microsoft settings leave a lot of possibilities and I
| have run into a similar issue with an X1 and a t580.
| julianlam wrote:
| This is unrelated, but do you find that you lose your sense of
| awareness when cycling with headphones in? I can see the appeal
| in a rural road or otherwise less busy area, but in downtown
| Toronto, you'll die if you do it.
|
| Even on country roads, occasionally cars (and cyclists!) will
| pass to close, and one errant swerve will end in disaster.
|
| I forget which country it was, but they had a national campaign
| (including radio ads and one pop song) that encouraged cyclists
| to ride with only one earbud inserted.
| siva7 wrote:
| Same experience. I can't understand how a company like Dell
| isn't capable of avoiding such design mistakes with their
| laptop line.
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| I've had this happen to me once with an XPS13-9360.
|
| I use Linux on my laptops exclusively, and it was supposed to
| enter S3 just fine. But after I closed the lid, something went
| wrong, and instead of suspending it actually started hogging 100%
| of CPU. I was unaware of it, and put it into my backpack. Shortly
| after, I had noticed that my back felt unusually warm. When I got
| it out, it was infuriatingly hot, almost scalding. I kept
| pressing down the power button until it turned off, and held it
| in the open air until both it and the inside of my backpack
| cooled off enough. Thankfully, it was a cold winter evening, so
| it didn't take very long.
|
| It's been 3 years now, the laptop works to this day nicely, even
| after suffering a bent edge on the screen assembly after falling
| down.
| dingosity wrote:
| certainly this isn't news.
| jefftk wrote:
| "Under no circumstances should you leave a laptop powered on and
| in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag,
| backpack, or in an overhead bin. The laptop will overheat as a
| result of that action."
| at_a_remove wrote:
| Is the S4 still supported in Windows 10? And how do you go about
| finding out if S3 or S4 are supported in a laptop you may want to
| buy?
| dathinab wrote:
| Putting your Laptop in a Back in sleep mode is a normal common
| usage for a laptop.
|
| Hence I'm pretty sure that at least in Germany voiding warranty
| because of it is not legal.
| ragebol wrote:
| Well, that explains: I have a XPS 13 since jan. 2019 and last
| year I had to replace the battery. It bulged, pushing the
| keyboard up a bit. Luckily no fire
| system2 wrote:
| Which brand did you use? Can you share the link? I have the
| same issue.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| What the actual fuck. That's insane.
| mint2 wrote:
| I've found that dell laptops don't sleep when unplugged from a
| dock in clamshell mode with an external monitor.
|
| It was pleasant to find when I'd left work to the airport after
| unplugging it and stuffing it my bag, that the closed computer
| was burning up and at critical battery.
|
| Now MS/dell Claims that's a feature not a bug and that they've
| expanded the situations where that occurs. What are they smoking?
| Oh yeah burning laptop fumes
| Johnny555 wrote:
| _In all extended travel and especially airplane travel, safety
| should be your primary concern. Under no circumstances should you
| leave a laptop powered on and in any sleep /hibernate/standby
| mode when placed in a bag, backpack, or in an overhead bin. The
| laptop will overheat as a result of that action._
|
| _With regards to transporting your laptop, safety should be your
| primary concern. You should always turn the laptop OFF: Select
| the Start button ,Click Power, Click Shut down_
|
| Wow, I'd be asking for a refund, since that would make my laptop
| much less usable -- when I leave work, I fold up my laptop, put
| it in my bag, then hop on the bus home, then when I get home, I
| opened it up and pick up where I left off, then repeat in the
| morning.
| ho_schi wrote:
| Linux -> Suspend -> S3 You just need ensure that the laptop
| successfully suspended and it never made a problem with mit
| ThinkPads.
|
| Like others pointed out, the problem for Dell seems caused by the
| awkward additional standbys introduced by Microsoft "Modern
| Standby" and so on. We still miss some similar power target to
| what phones use. Probably 'systemctl suspend' should mean hard S3
| and LID-Close something like phones behavior.
| xyzzy21 wrote:
| Basically the Dell XPS laptop SO BADLY DESIGNED it can not handle
| the excess heat of being put into a standard, used-by-everyone
| laptop bag!!
|
| I would assume they just laid out the standard "Example Design"
| without any thermal design analysis that NORML ENGINEERING
| companies do with any of the latest deep nanometer parts.
|
| The thing is: if you do NOT using good power supply or thermal
| design, the CPUs, RAM, Flash, etc. will only have an operating
| lifetime on the short end of the current 5-10 years usable life
| for these parts. If you overheat them, they will attain <5 year
| lifespan. If you do good thermal design, you'll get closer to 10
| years. If you use a schlock power supply to charge the battery
| and use the battery power, you will attain <5 year lifespan. If
| you design an ultra-low-ripple power supply and use quality
| battery power chips, you will get closer to 10 years.
|
| We are now at device physics lifespans that are so close to
| economic lifespans that now this kind of design MATTERS ENTIRELY.
| If you cut corners, you will quickly destroy your brand value
| because you will not be able to exceed economic lifespan
| expectations with your physical/physics-defined lifespan
| realities.
|
| The standard business-as-usual will fail now because things have
| changed now.
| csours wrote:
| I wish it could be REALLY clear when a laptop is off. What
| happens when I shut the lid? I don't know, I can't see the power
| button anymore.
| praash wrote:
| It's funny to read this after just arriving home with my XPS 15
| 9500 suspended in my backpack. I got it last week and installed
| Manjaro right away, and everything worked very well out of the
| box.
|
| The fans keep going on full throttle even with a relatively idle
| desktop. The cores were constantly reaching 100degC while
| initializing a heavy dev environment.
|
| The laptop's physical design is attractive, but abysmal. The main
| ventilation hole is located under the hinges, facing behind the
| laptop. Opening the lid will completely block this airway with a
| vertical wall 4 mm away. The venting grill at the bottom is
| lifted only a millimeter away from the table. Lifting the laptop
| off the table makes the fans sound way louder while lowering down
| in pitch - I think this is a clear sign of restricted airflow.
|
| You really shouldn't pack this much beefy hardware in a package
| almost as flat as a damn biscuit.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Dell sells official Dell laptop bags, backpacks, and cases:
| https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/carrying-cases/ac/7301
|
| "Keep your laptop, tablet and everyday essentials protected with
| sleek backpacks designed to blend in to any environment."
|
| I suspect that a lawsuit against their denial of warranty for
| putting a laptop into a backpack would go pretty well.
| mrweasel wrote:
| It's not that you can't put it in a bag, you just need to
| shutdown the laptop completely before doing so.
|
| The issue is most people don't use their laptops like that. My
| laptop basically only shuts down doing updates. While I can
| sort of understand Dells logic, it's also ignoring how people
| will normally use their laptops. It's really something Dell
| should adresse in their coming generations of laptops. No
| amount of writing will get users to change their behavior and
| even if Dell is correct, it will make their laptops seem
| inferior if they break because you transportet them in a bag
| while hibernating.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > if they break because you transportet them in a bag while
| hibernating.
|
| Power consumption during hibernation is _supposed_ to be zero
| - that is the concept of hibernation. What 's happening
| there?
| tablespoon wrote:
| > All newer Dell laptops now use the Microsoft Modern Standby.
|
| So let me guess: "modern" here is indicates a shitty new thing
| that doesn't work as well as the old thing.
|
| ...after further reading, yep:
|
| https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/dev...
|
| > On occasion, the system stays in the active mode (with the
| screen off) for a longer interval of time. These longer active
| intervals occur for a variety of reasons, for example, processing
| incoming email or downloading critical Windows updates. Windows
| components that are allowed to leave the SoC in the active power
| state are called activators because they are registered with the
| power manager as capable of blocking the transition back to the
| idle power mode. The durations of these activities vary widely
| but are controlled to extend battery life. The durations of the
| activities can be viewed with the built-in SleepStudy software
| tool or through Event Tracing for Windows (ETW)-based
| instrumentation.
| boznz wrote:
| Sounds like government needs to step in if its a safety hazard
| chippiewill wrote:
| It's not just Microsoft's fault.
|
| Intel have completely removed S3 sleep from the latest
| Tigerlake chips so even if you run Linux you end up with the
| same problem.
| lvs wrote:
| This truly an antifeature.
| nielsbot wrote:
| Similar to PowerNap from Apple
|
| https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/what-is-power-
| nap-m...
|
| Although I don't think Apple recommends not keeping your
| laptop in a bag.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Similar to PowerNap from Apple
|
| That seems pretty easy to turn off. I just checked my Mac
| and it's disabled, and the description around the setting
| was clear enough for me to know I didn't want to touch it
| with a ten foot pole.
| alanh wrote:
| FWIW:
|
| 1) Looking at System Preferences right now, the setting for
| Power Nap reads as follows:
|
| > [x] Enable Power Nap while plugged into a power adapter
|
| > While sleeping, your Mac can back up using Time Machine
| and periodically check fro new email, calendar, and other
| iCloud updates
|
| This indicates that it should not have any affect on a
| sleeping MacBook in a bag (presumably disconnected from
| power).
|
| 2) That said, I have on rare occasions found a former work-
| issued MacBook Pro to be hot to the touch when removed from
| my bag after a commute. I assumed this was some bug (not a
| feature), and I can neither rule out nor implicate the
| involvement of the nanny software installed by IT.
| nielsbot wrote:
| If you switch to the Battery tab in Energy/Battery
| preferences, it's there:
|
| "Enable Power Nap while on battery power"
| smsm42 wrote:
| I had these too, even though I have power nap disabled.
| But given how horrendously buggy the whole power cycle
| thing in Macs is I am not surprised. I've seen it after
| coming from sleep completely forget all display configs,
| freeze cold, switch displays, refuse to connect bluetooth
| devices until I remove and re-register them, and so much
| other fun stuff. So just waking up and wasting a ton of
| battery is par for the course. The whole sleep thing is
| deeply broken there, and since there's no transparency
| there's no way to see even if it's "sleeping" or just
| staying up and heating itself up.
| da39a3ee wrote:
| This is why people use Apple laptops. I'd be fine using Linux as
| my OS. But my employer issues my laptop and chooses the model. If
| serious non-Apple laptop manufacturers are still making crap like
| this, how do I know my employer won't choose hardware as bad as
| this for their Windows and Linux employees?
| joeberon wrote:
| I agree, you're going to get downvoted but it's just true. This
| _is_ why people use MacBooks. It just isn't the same experience
| in other cases, especially now with the extreme quietness and
| performance of M1, but even before the standby behaviour was
| extremely reliable.
| Macha wrote:
| https://support.apple.com/en-ie/guide/mac-help/mh40773/mac
|
| Mac sleep isn't sleep either, and yes, some macs have issues
| returning to sleep after
| joeberon wrote:
| You can turn power nap off, and "some macs have issues" is
| _very_ different from Dell saying "if you put it in your
| bag on standby it voids your warranty".
| Macha wrote:
| Dell puts it in writing, Apple puts their fingers in
| their ears (butterfly keyboards, "you're holding it
| wrong").
| joeberon wrote:
| So your justification for Dell voiding warranty upon
| putting the laptop in the bag on standby is that _reads
| notes_ Apple...does not void the warranty, and that it is
| somehow virtuous to explicitly void warranty instead of
| honouring warranty? Sorry, but your logic is completely
| insane.
| Macha wrote:
| I'm not justifying Dell here, I'm just replying to the
| comment that you can somehow avoid these issues with
| Apple.
|
| I have had experience with my last personally owned Apple
| products fighting them to honour the warranty. Maybe
| they're better in the US, but it's not evident to me that
| that's something you can rely on:
| https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple-admits-faulty-
| macbook-...
|
| I agree with the idea that Dell should still be made
| honour the warranty, via court proceedings if they hold
| out too long, just as has occasionally been needed of
| Apple in the past.
| airbreather wrote:
| and I have a dell bag that came with the laptop...
| Tade0 wrote:
| Both my work and private laptop can (but not always do) behave
| like that. Additionally, depending on the version of vendor
| bloatware, they may not wake up without a hard reset and just
| keep doing... something in the background. I think it has
| something to do with the lockscreen.
|
| Windows is Windows is Windows I guess.
|
| My private laptop boots in under 30s, so I stopped paying any
| mind to this.
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| Had this same problem with another laptop brand too. It was
| scary.
| 1432132143 wrote:
| not only XPS also damn Thinkpad t440 t460 one time back from work
| on in my closet 90* WTF one time on 12 hours flight my laptop was
| all time on in bag. Disable wekup by keyboard usb not solve issue
| its a random one time per year but its bad
| nevi-me wrote:
| I have an Inspiron that differs from the same issue. Worse is
| that it has an Nvidia Quadro that overheats the moment I put it
| on a flat surface.
|
| The fan is loud, and it just won't go to sleep, so I end up
| always shutting down.
|
| I rarely use it, and instead brought my own laptop to work. It's
| a shame because the Dell that I used at a previous employer also
| suffered from thermal and noise issues.
| smsm42 wrote:
| I thought hibernate was supposed to be the mode when memory is
| dumped to the persistent storage and the device is turned off?
| That definition changed?
| gibba999 wrote:
| I've had hibernated laptops wake up for whatever reasons in bags
| before. They get super-hot and shut down.
|
| Come to think of it, they were Dells. Perhaps some switch is not
| properly debounced or something.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| This explains why my old windows laptop is constantly out of
| juice whenever I need to do something with Windows, even though
| I was sure I set it to hibernate.
|
| The last time I turned it of, I removed the battery. It is
| pretty silly that my laptop in 2021 can't do what my first
| laptop could do in 2003. Even worse, it is a Thinkpad. I expect
| better from those.
| RGamma wrote:
| Had similar issues. Has something to do with wake timers (see
| powercfg /waketimers)
|
| Sometimes caused by drivers or periphery. Good luck disabling
| them all.
|
| No idea how modern sleep plays into this. The Linux hibernate
| turns the system off for real (battery can be removed).
| curt15 wrote:
| The Surface Pro 4 had that problem for months after its
| release.
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/4hnhuz/just_took_m...
| _Microft wrote:
| I once investigated why a PC occasionally turned on all by
| itself and at first suspected that something on the network
| might be sending wake on LAN packets. It turned out that the PC
| was only in sleep mode and not hibernating and that Windows can
| wake it up from there, e.g. because of scheduled maintenance.
| What was even more surprising, it will go back to sleep once it
| is done.
|
| You might want to check the event viewer in cases like that.
| gibba999 wrote:
| I don't run Windows. I believe I was running Ubuntu at the
| time this was a problem, possibly Debian. This was a few
| years back.
| caramelazimuth wrote:
| The power management of dell XPS 17 is absolutely awful.
| Sometimes it hibernates. Sometimes it doesn`t. I have tried
| absolutely everything.
| Grazester wrote:
| I have a Dell laptop that I thought was hibernated. Closed lid
| usually sets it to hibernate.
|
| Well that didn't work this one time and the laptop was left on in
| my backpack... Well something fried and now my laptop would not
| recognize the dell charger and tell me to plug it into a genuine
| Dell charger half the time and would not charge. It was a 2017
| model so when this happened last year I bought a Lenovo.
| cmurf wrote:
| It's remarkable to me how generally pleasant the phone/tablet
| power management experience is, in comparison to laptops. It's
| such complete shit on laptops. My laptop has better battery life
| in S0 low power idle than either S3 or (Linux) S2idle. I blame
| ACPI as a standard, and all of its bearers.
| rednafi wrote:
| I don't use Windows but this still happened to me with my XPS 15
| 2020.
|
| I put it in sleep and shoved it in a bag while going on a hike.
| Fortunately it was only an hour hike and I could literally feel
| the heat emanating from the machine through the fabric of the
| bag. Don't do it.
| sigzero wrote:
| "...if you leave it turned ON".
|
| Just putting it in a bag does not void the warranty.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| This is one of the main reasons I just returned my XPS 13 9310
| and got a Framework instead. The sleep/standby/hibernate stuff is
| just bad. I don't know if it is a Dell problem or a Windows
| problem or what, but it's terrible.
|
| I'm primarily a Mac user but I haven't had the same issue with
| other Windows laptops and the Dell has standby issues in Linux
| too so it's just bad. And loud. And hot.
| bobthecowboy wrote:
| Yup, I bought that same model (to run Linux) on a long time
| reputation for Dell XPS on Linux and the power management is
| ridiculous. Absolutely terrible. Unplugged, mine won't hold a
| charge for more than a day unless it's shut all the way down.
| It loses something like 5% of battery power an hour. A buddy
| has one that's previous gen and it actually sleeps correctly.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| Yeah, that's the most frustrating thing, the prior models
| don't seem to have this issue. It's a shame because the
| laptop is so expensive, and it's otherwise a beautiful
| device.
| BitAstronaut wrote:
| This is about the tenth time I've seen someone reference a
| framework laptop in the last couple of days.
|
| Is it a new company?
| [deleted]
| kingaillas wrote:
| Framework just started shipping their hardware, so perhaps
| all these mentions are people that have received their
| preorders (or read about people receiving their preorders).
| https://frame.work/
| Mathnerd314 wrote:
| Laptop company that famous youtuber invested in:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Computer
| riccardomc wrote:
| https://frame.work/
|
| Definitely considering it when my current X1 carbon will
| trespass into laptops Valhalla.
| IlliOnato wrote:
| https://frame.work
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/07/frameworks-new-
| light...
| tim333 wrote:
| 1400 hn comments the other day
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28606962
| webmobdev wrote:
| Yes - https://frame.work/laptop ... Their claim to fame is
| their highly repairable, modular laptop that you can assemble
| like desktop computers.
| qudat wrote:
| Yes and I preordered one specifically because I want a first-
| class linux supported laptop with repair-ability in mind.
|
| As far as I can tell it is living up to its hype.
| Biganon wrote:
| I'm on Arch, and it gets hot in my bag when in sleep mode.
| Hibernate is certainly good though, since it's basically
| powered off, but I haven't tested because in my experience
| hibernation on Linux is kinda finicky to get to work flawlessly
| II2II wrote:
| I ended up configuring my machine to suspend to disk when the
| power button is hit. I would agree with the hibernation
| function being finicky under Linux except I ran across
| similar behavior under Windows, so it probably has something
| to do with how power management is handled on PC hardware.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| Yeah, I have a feeling it is probably issues with Windows
| and Windows drivers AND hardware issues in general, because
| I have problems in Linux too.
|
| I feel like, at least with Dell, it's a perfect storm of
| bad Windows power management policies/support, bad Windows
| drivers (from Dell or Microsoft or both), and generally bad
| hardware power management at a firmware level within Linux
| too.
|
| I've certainly had some suspend/power management issues
| with other Windows laptops, but nothing like this Dell. I'm
| about to return the Dell (taking it back today in fact) and
| I had it closed on a desk, plugged in, but closed, and the
| fans started to go insane. I opened it up and my laptop had
| exited suspend mode and was in some weird Dell system
| setting scan that I hadn't initiated and that wasn't
| scheduled to run. This literally happened between when I
| made my first comment and now (I'm using a different device
| to comment).
|
| Meanwhile, my Framework laptop might not be as good as my
| MacBook Pro, but when I close it, I don't need to worry
| about it turning on in my bag or have it sitting on my
| desk.
|
| So I blame Dell, Microsoft, and Dell again for bad power
| management, poor firmware, poor drivers, and lackluster OS
| support. Linux could probably get some blame too, but
| again, I tend to think it's bad drivers and firmware more
| than anything.
| 6jQhWNYh wrote:
| It's definitely a Windows issue. I've had it with non-XPS Dells
| and completely different brands like Eluktronics.
| IncRnd wrote:
| Microsoft calls it a Windows Feature, though. Microsoft's
| Modern Standby is what causes this.
|
| https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-
| hardware/design/dev...
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| I have this issue with my Surface Book 2, everything is MS so
| there's no real excuse.
|
| Didn't notice it in the first couple years of ownership, not
| sure if it was because my usage patterns changed or some not-
| so-helpful update that made it worse, but it's really absurd
| that I can't predict what will happen when I close the
| laptop.
|
| I did something to disable network activity from interrupting
| standby, which reduced the issues a bit but not consistently.
| picture wrote:
| I have this issue with my Razer Blade 15.. I've gotta used
| to carrying my laptop in my hands now so it's not quite so
| much of a problem.
| chippiewill wrote:
| It's not Windows (although Microsoft did basically force it
| to happen).
|
| Intel have just removed S3 sleep from the latest Tigerlake
| chip so there isn't an alternative.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I got my first windows laptop in 1999 (Toshiba satellite),
| and had 4 subsequent one's since including HP Elitebooks
| and Dell Latitude Pros, and on none of them could I close
| the lid at a moment's notice and start moving. I have had
| an Intel MacBook Air since 7 years ago, and I have never
| not been able to close the lid at a moment's notice and
| stuff it in my backpack and get going.
| darzu wrote:
| This always happened with my Surface Book, a flagship Microsoft
| made device. I could never trust it in my backpack. WTF msft.
| chippiewill wrote:
| It's an Intel problem.
|
| They just axed S3 sleep in the latest Tigerlake chips (which
| the 9310 use, and I assume Framework is using or will use in
| the future). You can't even workaround this by running Linux.
|
| This more or less means that there isn't actually an
| alternative to modern standby other than hibernation at the
| hardware level any more (unless AMD continue to support it
| which there's a good chance of happening).
| ngokevin wrote:
| Most of my Windows laptops in the past would do this in a bag
| (e.g., Sony and Razor). I'd pin it on Windows, not saying it
| happens to all Windows laptops but Windows allows it to happen.
| It knows to sleep when shut, but somehow spins back up in the
| bag.
| pletnes wrote:
| Same happened to me with HP and thinkpad laptops.
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| I know this is not sufficient evidence of the contrary, but
| my HP Envy 15z x360 (the one with the Ryzen 2500u
| processor) seems to hibernate as expected with the lid
| shut. Zero battery usage while hibernating on my desk or in
| my bag for days at a time.
|
| Granted, this laptop is more than a couple years old at
| this point, so it is possible it is completely unaffected.
| icelancer wrote:
| Agreed. This happened with my Dell laptops, ROG laptops, and
| Thinkpads. It's just a Windows problem.
| jseliger wrote:
| I primarily use MacOS and just don't understand how this can
| still be a seemingly common problem in 2021, when most of the
| world uses laptops. Shouldn't this be a top priority for
| Microsoft and for vendors?
|
| Apparently it isn't, which may explain why almost every
| quarter Apple reports year-over-year gains in laptop sales.
|
| If I were the boss at Microsoft, this would become a top
| priority. Immediately.
| cma wrote:
| It happens with macbooks for me if using an sd card. It
| started doing it only after an update a few years back.
| blowski wrote:
| My MacBook Pro (2019) occasionally does this as well. I
| close the lid in the office, put it in my bag. When I take
| it out at home it's turned off due to overheating and the
| battery is dead. The cause is some background process
| that's preventing it going into hibernation when the lid is
| closed.
| Procedural wrote:
| RIP laptops.
| og42 wrote:
| According to archive.org[0], looks like just now has Dell removed
| the red highlighted part that mentions the warranty. When I
| looked at the page earlier today, it was still there.
|
| ``` Under no circumstances should you leave a laptop powered on
| and in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag,
| backpack, or in an overhead bin. ```
|
| [0]
| https://web.archive.org/web/20210624044948/https://www.dell....
| guilhas wrote:
| That almost happened to me on an Asus, Windows waked it. I put it
| to sleep, put it in my backpack, left work, some hours later it
| was incredibly hot, lucky I saw it in time. After that I started
| to use hibernate when leaving work.
|
| But at home I would still notice the laptop on by itself in the
| morning, or the fan starting at 2am, at some point I was just
| furious, that the PC would not respect my settings. I disabled
| wake timers, updates, schedule tasks...
|
| Now I keep all my Windows inside boxes ...virtual boxes
| kelnos wrote:
| The issue is that Windows doesn't go into S3 sleep when you close
| the lid; it goes into a weird not-really-asleep state for... some
| reason that I don't agree with[0]. I guess that state is "hot"
| enough that you could damage the laptop by putting it in a bag
| while in that state.
|
| Fortunately I've been running Linux on my XPS 13, which I have
| put into a bag hundreds of times (maybe even over a thousand)
| while suspended. Linux's suspend does actually use the "cold" S3
| suspend state, so this is safe.
|
| [0] It's called "Modern Standby" (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows-hardware/design/dev...), which... honestly sounds
| really stupid to me. "Modern Standby" presumably drains the
| battery orders of magnitude faster than a normal S3 standby. I
| can't imagine _ever_ wanting this behavior. I 'm entirely fine
| with my laptop taking ~10 seconds to wake up and reconnect to
| whatever network I'm near.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| I have dell XPS, it had perfectly functional sleep and could be
| put in a bag. Then 'modern standby' was added in an update and
| it ruine the laptop - if I place it in the bag in the morning,
| by linchtime it will be crazy hot and the battery will be gone.
| And you cannot diaable this feature. I don't get wtf these
| people are smoking.
| enriquto wrote:
| On my Dell, this problem happens when you suspend the laptop
| from software (either with pm-suspend or systemctl suspend).
| If you simply close the lid, it seems to enter in a different
| "mode" of suspend, the real one, where you can carry it
| without overheating and the battery lasts for weeks.
| karteum wrote:
| > "some reason that I don't agree with[0]"
|
| On my side I am quite happy that the hardware+software can
| support some kind of fast wake-up (similar to Macbooks and
| smartphones instead of needing >10 seconds to wake up when I
| open the lid). I just do a real shutdown when I don't need the
| laptop anymore.
|
| And precisely : as it was said by someone else above, on modern
| computers with SSDs, I would rather disable "fast startup" so
| that the computer really shutdowns when I ask him to (which is
| also useful when you have dual-boot and your Linux systems
| wants to get r/w access to the NTFS partition)
|
| But I admit that the computer could/should automatically enter
| in suspend-to-disk after being in "modern standby" for more
| than e.g. 5 minutes, and this should be configurable.
| codeflo wrote:
| The value of fast wakeup is real. But manufacturers and OS
| vendors need to actually get their act together and implement
| this, not fake it in a way that passes reviews but is
| actually damaging to hardware in the real world.
| Aissen wrote:
| Exactly. It's entirely possible to implement fast wakeups,
| but it requires thoughtful design. Smartphone go to sleep
| opportunistically whenever you shutdown the screen. Even an
| Intel CPU could probably do this in less than 500ms (and
| that is a boatload of cycles).
| unfocused wrote:
| The "fast startup" cause a lot of problems for us. If you
| "shutdown" you're not doing a full shutdown.... You're really
| only doing a full shutdown when you select "Restart" instead
| as evidenced by the uptime clock in task manager.
|
| It's like Windows broke the simplest button ... just shut it
| down!
| nogridbag wrote:
| I purchased one of those 1st gen Windows on ARM laptops (HP
| Envy) specifically for the "instant on" / modern standby
| feature. It worked perfectly, just like a smartphone, until I
| received a major Windows update. Now it wakes slowly ruining
| the only good thing about that device. I've now been burned
| twice in a row by MS and will likely not purchase another
| product from them again.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| Oh wow. i did NOT know that. Even worse...
|
| > _Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by
| changing a setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is
| not supported in Windows without a complete OS re-install._
|
| and on Reddit
|
| > _Warning: if your laptop is newer than 2019, there is a high
| chance, your OEM removed any S3 code from the bios, and your
| laptop will crash entering S3 and you have to force hold power
| key to restart and then delete the registry entry again to
| revert back to modern standby._
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Dell/comments/h0r56s/getting_back_s...
|
| so not only is microsoft screwing around.. its getting all the
| manufacturers to screw around as well?
| chippiewill wrote:
| Intel just removed S3 sleep completely from the latest
| Tigerlake chips.
|
| I don't think it's the OEMs / manufacturers, it's Intel.
| AndrewDavis wrote:
| It's terrible. I remember being woken up one night because my
| laptop decided to wake up and resume the Netflix video I'd be
| watching earlier. No input devices connected, lid closed.
| Another time it cooked in my bag because windows wanted to do
| an update on shut down so I slept it instead.
|
| I have a 2017 XPS model so I the firmware supports S3 sleep.
| There is no modal in the BIOS though. I had to trick windows
| into thinking it didn't support modern sleep.
|
| Based on posts from others trying to do the same thing, it
| used to be a single registery key edit. Now it's convoluted
| and required fiddling with WiFi power controls. The end
| result it sleeps properly but takes anywhere from 10 seconds
| (good) to more than a minute (bad) to connect to WiFi when
| woken up.
|
| Of course on Linux it just works.
|
| Back when I was looking into this I found someone who'd found
| a way to patch the acpi table to enable it for the newer
| models (at risk of bricking the device entirely). Alas I
| can't find the link any more.
|
| I won't buy another Dell until this is fixed.
|
| My work laptop is an X1 carbon and it supports only S3 sleep
| so it just works.
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| > Switching the power model is not supported in Windows
| without a complete OS re-install
|
| That's absolutely insane.
| creshal wrote:
| Seems to be mostly a Dell/Microsoft problem, haven't heard of
| other vendors removing S3 functionality (yet, anyway).
| regularfry wrote:
| I've got a Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 which doesn't advertise S3.
| It's a really nice machine, but having to wait several
| months after getting it for someone out there who
| understands these things to come up with the right
| combination of kernel code and ACPI patches so I could shut
| the lid and not have it just reset when I opened it back up
| again was something I could have done without. Fortunately
| it's got the capability, it just needed turning on.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| hi i have the Yoga Slim 7 too (the white carbon fiber
| one). How do you enable this ?
| hexo wrote:
| ASUS UM325
| creshal wrote:
| Weird, I got a newer Asus (Flow X13) and it does S3 just
| fine.
| bestouff wrote:
| Spoiler: I have an XPS 9500 under Linux, which sleeps fine
| under S3 but then it never wakes up. So the problem isn't
| with Windows.
| teekert wrote:
| So you're actually "putting it to sleep", when you put it
| to sleep.
| deaddodo wrote:
| I have an XPS 9500 and it sleeps+wakes, as expected, with
| S3.
| tome wrote:
| What does "never wakes up" mean? I thought I had the same
| problem but then I discovered that closing and opening the
| lid is the only way to get it to wake. Neither the power
| button (it turns it off) nor keypresses (they do nothing)
| work.
| bestouff wrote:
| I think I tried everything, from buttons to lid to magic
| network packets. Once in S3 it's dead Jim, and there's
| nothing in the BIOS to change that behavior.
|
| The irony is that I have a 4 years old XPS 13 where
| everything works like a charm, even under Linux. Talk
| about progress ...
| senkora wrote:
| I've had a problem like this with my XPS and I was able
| to solve it by holding the power button for 25-40 seconds
| to reset something:
|
| https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000125880/how-
| to-re...
| tome wrote:
| In case anyone is curious I wrote up how I use suspend (amongst
| other things) with my XPS 13 running Debian:
| http://h2.jaguarpaw.co.uk/posts/how-i-use-debian-dell-xps-13...
| comeonseriously wrote:
| Nice write-up, but I think the point is on the newer XPS' the
| S3 option is completely gone.
| yread wrote:
| On the other hand ssh sessions staying opened are nice. I agree
| it doesn't outweigh the mess it created though
| freeflight wrote:
| _> On the other hand ssh sessions staying opened are nice._
|
| Probably a convenience feature for the NSA folks logged in
| trough the Intel ME.
| comeonseriously wrote:
| The very latest (9310) XPS 13 doesn't have S3 at all, though,
| from what I'm gathering. So even on Linux, it won't sleep well.
| rooprob wrote:
| Changing the disk to AHCI in BIOS allows my 9310 to reach
| C10, fixing the sleeping heater issue.
|
| https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211879#c24
|
| I'm running linux kernel 5.14.3 for the QCA6390 support as my
| laptop is the Windows edition.
| kenmacd wrote:
| Just wait. The newer laptops don't have S3 in the bios at all.
| cmurf wrote:
| True but you can enable it on some laptops by telling the
| firmware setup that your OS is Linux. I'm not sure what Linux
| S2idle is in ACPI lingo, but that's what Linux uses on my
| newest lapop by default. S3 (suspend-to-RAM) is not available
| to the kernel. And yet it's a power hog compared to just not
| using the laptop and letting the display backlight turn off,
| roughly 1% battery life loss per hour in S2idle. Whereas it's
| about 0.5% battery life loss per hour in whatever Windows 10
| is doing for laptop lid close.
| jerf wrote:
| OK, so, overheating the laptop stresses it and will eventually
| damage it. Got it. Easy to understand.
|
| Question. What is it about "being in a bag" that destroys the
| thermal handling? I've had my laptop in my _lap_ spontaneously
| power off when it gets too hot. (Which _itself_ makes me a bit
| crabby about why it didn 't successfully throttle down until it
| could at least keep running, but that's a separate gripe.) Why
| doesn't the laptop in the bag also eventually turn itself off?
|
| Laptops are equipped with thermal sensors to prevent themselves
| from destroying themselves already. Why aren't they working here?
| Why don't the sensors cut things off earlier? Why _isn 't_ this a
| warranty issue? Isn't my hardware's thermal shutoff mechanism
| defective if it lets this happen?
| daggersandscars wrote:
| Thermal sensors measure temperature in specific points / small
| areas. There are a finite number of these and they do not cover
| the entire CPU / GPU / motherboard / etc.
|
| If one puts a massive load on a CPU, the temperature spikes
| quickly and widely across enough of the die that the sensors
| work as expected and the system throttles / shuts down.
|
| If one puts a small load on the CPU for a long period of time,
| areas that are not covered by sensors may overheat, damaging
| the CPU. This is true for other components in the system, too.
|
| If the laptop is out in the air, convection will remove enough
| heat to prevent these invisible "hot spots". The bag acts as a
| blanket. Over hours, the laptop cooks parts of itself to
| death[0] in ways the system cannot detect.
|
| [0] Or damages them in ways that make them unstable.
|
| Edited to add [0]
| sbakzbsmx wrote:
| A single sensor by the exhaust fan would be an excellent
| proxy for the T anywhere in the laptop.
|
| The really hot stuff have sensors themselves, so if anything
| else is hot it will be revealed in the exhaust
| stagger87 wrote:
| An exhaust fan doesn't work in a bag.
| Tagbert wrote:
| That is why the temp sensor would quickly register high
| heat and shut down the system.
| [deleted]
| jerf wrote:
| Thank you. Good point.
|
| I still wonder if machines should be designed to deal with
| this, and would still be tempted to call it a "warranty
| issue" that they didn't handle a scenario they're clearly
| aware of.
|
| On the other hand it would also be very nice if software just
| didn't decide it can unsuspend a laptop whenever, and then
| apparently do hours of work without ever re-suspending, so...
| I guess you could say I've got enough blame to ladle around
| for everybody.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| Do they not put thermal sensors in the CPU? My laptop gives a
| temperature for each individual CPU core. Whenever I start a
| heavy CPU task I instantly see a temperature spike. The
| theory that the thermometers are in potentially useless spots
| doesn't match my observations.
| daggersandscars wrote:
| My apologies for not being clearer that this is not only
| about the CPU. It's about all the components in the laptop,
| not just the CPU. I used the CPU in the example because
| it's a component most of us are familiar with.
|
| It's not that the sensors are in useless spots. They're the
| best sensors in the best spots the designers could make
| work for the price point they're trying to hit.
|
| To answer your CPU question: CPUs have thermal sensors,
| probably the highest number in the machine as they work
| with clock speed scaling and the CPU is in the top 2 most
| expensive components. But each of these sensors is covering
| a large area, which may not heat up evenly under low loads.
|
| A heavy load is the easy case and the one they're designed
| to detect: the CPU core is fully loaded, it's generating
| maximum heat, and the entire core area will heat up
| quickly.
|
| A light load is harder to detect. Depending on die design
| and sensor placement, one corner of a core may heat up in a
| way the sensor doesn't detect well at low CPU loads.
|
| These sensors are also only accurate "enough". This corner
| of a core may have to get to 110C before the sensor
| realizes it's overheating and throttles it. It could sit
| for hours at 105C, very slowly toasting itself.
|
| But CPUs are, generally, actively cooled or have large
| heatsinks, so this is less of an issue in practice...
| though wrapping a laptop in a blanket overnight might make
| it an issue.
|
| To move on beyond CPUs: There are many thermally sensitive
| components in a laptop. Some of them have thermal sensors.
| Others do not. Almost all of them rely on convection to
| shed heat. Leaving the laptop effectively "on" and in a bag
| overnight may bring them to a temperature that damages
| them.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Light load over a long period of time will result in a
| fairly uniform temperature distribution. It sounds like
| the system must have no "general" temperature sensor
| measuring the air temperature inside the machine (or
| chassis temperature).
|
| Probably some small component on the logic board
| generates a bit of heat, requiring a certain "internal
| ambient" temperature, and the designers (never having
| thought to test it with restricted airflow) never noticed
| the implicit assumptions they had made.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I have a very recent Dell laptop that has _terrible_ standby
| performance on Linux (as in the battery fully drains in 8-12
| hours on standby). Could this be related or is it a Windows only
| issue?
| myfavoritedog wrote:
| For the last 20 years for work, I've had a series of Dell
| laptops. They've always had a problem with overheating in my bag.
| Dell has no clue how to fix their sleep problems.
|
| Meanwhile for personal use, I've always used a Mac. I don't
| recall ever having a Mac fail to go to sleep when I closed the
| lid during normal activity. That said, I have had a problem here
| or there with its waking back up. But that's a problem I've maybe
| only seen once every few years or so.
| SmellTheGlove wrote:
| This is not good. In the before-times, closing the lid, throwing
| my laptop in my bag, and commuting happened twice daily. I
| suppose that I'm extra glad I chose a Mac with my current
| employer - even if I don't commute daily anymore.
| ironSkillet wrote:
| This is humorous timing for me. I just purchased an XPS 9510 and
| sleep mode was busted out of the box. After multiple hours of
| troubleshooting and updating bios and firmware with their
| "premium" support team, the machine still didn't work. I returned
| the laptop and vowed to never purchase a dell product ever again.
| They seem to have serious quality control issues in their product
| pipelines.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| They wish warranty worked like this in most countries.
| OJFord wrote:
| Not really in practice though - to rephrase, you can only put it
| in a bag if it's shut down - how many people do that frequently
| other than to reboot for some reason? How many of those do it
| every time they put it in a bag? As if on your commute to work
| for example you're going to power on when you get on the train,
| shut down again when you get off, power on again when you get
| into the office, off again when you leave, ... (and if the job
| involves lots of client meetings, or presentations in another
| building..!)
| NoblePublius wrote:
| Improper storage is a perfectly reasonable reason to void a
| warranty. This is accidental damage, and Dell sells a separate
| plan for that.
| KingOfCoders wrote:
| I had a 13" XPS max specced which when sleeping suddendly sounded
| the alarm when the fan did not work. The sound was the same
| decibel as our smoke detector - in the middle of the night next
| to the bed.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| MacBooks have similar functionality ("Power Nap"), which allows
| for some telemetry (updating your iCloud calendar/drive/mail, MDM
| telemetry for corporate-owned devices, etc) while asleep. It
| hasn't been an issue though.
| markstos wrote:
| Pre-Covid, I did daily run commuting with a couple different
| models of XPS 13 with Ubuntu installed and suspended and didn't
| have a problem.
|
| I always used S3 suspend and never hiberation because I quit
| trusting and trying hiberation on Linux long ago.
| wazoox wrote:
| I've had an XPS running Linux for 8 years. Never was an issue.
| The problem definitely is Windows...
| vitejose wrote:
| Macs are the only computers I've used that have had close to zero
| issues with sleep. But I don't even bother sleeping on the
| machines running Linux distros: with SSDs, powering on and off is
| so fast that I just shut the computer down whenever I'm done with
| it. I should time it to know for sure, but a cold boot to fully
| operational Firefox window feels like maybe 15 seconds. Powering
| off is not even five seconds. Not as fast as waking from sleep on
| my MBP but zippy enough for me.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| So, don't use the sleep mode for what it's for on your $1500
| machine?
| bestouff wrote:
| My 9500 is more like $4000. And it can't sleep properly.
| tekism wrote:
| I have a dell 9700 and I had this happen just yesterday on a god
| damn flight. I am still pissed. I never put my laptop to
| sleep/hibernate. I always shutdown. I have no idea but it somehow
| turned on in my bag, I felt it on my leg on the flight. I opened
| the bag and it was freaking hot. I have no idea how this
| happened. I noticed sometimes when I docked I click shutdown, it
| doesn't shutdown.
|
| The other thing is there is no freaking light on the laptop other
| than the keyboard lighting to indicate it's off. I have to flip
| the laptop and listen to see if it's on, I look like a crazy
| person in public. I love the laptop but this is downright
| ridiculous. As I am typing on it, I smell an electronic burn but
| the laptop seems fine.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > With regards to transporting your laptop, you must first turn
| the laptop OFF
|
| This has been a problem for already quite long. I remember my
| very old laptop overheating if being put in the backpack in
| Standby mode.
|
| Nowadays I in fact don't just turn laptops Off the default way. I
| go and disable the "fast start up" (Control Panel - Power Options
| - Choose what the power buttons do) to make sure the computer
| gets turnt of for real rather than using yet another flavour of
| hibernation. And it still starts very fast (a couple of seconds
| longer perhaps) so I see no reason for these "fast start up" and
| "modern stand-by" modes to even exist now as we have fast SSDs
| and everything.
|
| Besides starting up fast, another important value standby modes
| add is freeing you from having to open, position and initialize
| (open the documents/locations in them) all your apps manually
| every time. But this seems trivial to be reached by adding
| functions to just save the list of opened apps, their windows
| positions and the actual documents which were opened in them.
| This will require some coordinated effort from both the OS and
| the apps developers though.
| Raed667 wrote:
| > laptop overheating if being put in the backpack
|
| I killed a macbook air exactly like this. It just decided not
| to shutdown like usual.
|
| Usually I'd put it on sleep mode, or just close the lid and it
| is fine, but it only took one time for it not to work properly
| to find the insides of my backpack like a sauna.
| creshal wrote:
| > It just decided not to shutdown like usual.
|
| This happened once or twice with Windows laptops for me
| (Lenovo and Asus); but each time the laptop survived. Was
| yours a fanless model?
| Raed667 wrote:
| It was probably the 2017 model, it had a fan. But it was in
| the tight pouch within the backpack that was supposed to
| protect laptops from bumps, so it didn't have much room to
| breath.
| rawbot wrote:
| Same thing happened to me with my Surface Book. I found it
| the next day with fans at max and burning hot. Still
| survived. Why aren't laptops shutting down when the CPU
| gets unbearably hot?
| creshal wrote:
| "Unbearably hot" for meatbags and "unbearably hot" for
| CPUs are different things; meatbags start having troubles
| at 50degC, while internal components are fine until
| 90-120degC.
|
| Traditional hard disks are the biggest exception, but I'm
| fairly certain that's not a worry for a Surface.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Good question, they do turn off the discrete GPU when it
| gets too hot.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| How can a fan help when fresh air is nowhere for it to suck
| from? I even suspect fan-less models may be better prepared
| for such scenario.
| creshal wrote:
| Even when there's not much fresh air supply, it can
| circulate the existing air over a larger volume and
| transfer heat faster into whatever material surrounds it.
| Doesn't help _much_ , but might be the difference between
| "it's burning my fingers but still works" and "it died".
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| Is there even a way to make sure a MacBook is actually turt
| really off?
| jakub_g wrote:
| sudo pmset -a hibernatemode 25
|
| The dumb thing is you can't choose to do sleep vs
| hibernate; you have a system global setting which decides
| what "sleep" means. (AFAIU You need to have two shell
| scripts sleep.sh and hibernate.sh to change the hibernate
| mode if you want to be in control on what's gonna happen)
| tomp wrote:
| Wow, it's quite fascinating what you non-Mac people are willing
| to put up with. Or maybe it's fascinating how Mac
| JustWorks(TM).
| jraph wrote:
| Read the thread just next to your comment:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640283
|
| It's also Macs.
|
| Computers are complicated, some things are probably released
| with a tight schedule, things are not formally verified, and
| therefore have bugs. Hardware or software. It's sad but we
| have to deal with it.
|
| Sleep has been working well on Linux on the machines I've
| been using for the past years (especially after removing a
| defective RAM stick from one of them - and the computer is
| built in such a way I could do it myself easily!). But yes,
| once or twice, the computer won't go to sleep because I'm
| running updates (that I launched manually, mind you), or some
| other shit.
|
| I've taken the habit of checking that the computer actually
| went to sleep before putting it in a bag and you should, too,
| for the one time your Mac won't go to sleep because who knows
| why.
| hvidgaard wrote:
| > It's sad but we have to deal with it.
|
| We can absolutely both meet reasonable innovation and
| deadlines with formal verification. It's just that no one
| wants to pay for it.
| jraph wrote:
| I'm interested in examples you may have, as someone who
| once flirted with formal methods.
|
| The most practical use of formal method I witnessed is
| model checking (with TLA+), but that does not check the
| actual implementation.
|
| There's also CompCert, a formally verified C compiler
| written in Coq, but even then, some parts are not
| verified so the final product may still have bugs.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Tomp was likely talking about the Mac "reopen running apps
| after reboot" which works very well in terms of putting
| your state back the way it was. Terminals aren't fully
| restored (what would it mean to/how could you restore an
| ssh connection anyway?), but most apps for most people are.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| >Terminals aren't fully restored (what would it mean
| to/how could you restore an ssh connection anyway?), but
| most apps for most people are.
|
| See my post about NeWS ~/.startup.ps event recording and
| playback above. You could record keyboard events to set
| up your terminal windows and emacs buffers and shells,
| and mouse events to open and position windows, pop up and
| select from menus, press buttons and drag sliders, etc.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640529
|
| Back in the 80's we used unencrypted rlogin with .rhosts
| files to avoid typing passwords, but now you can restore
| encrypted shell connections using ssh keys.
|
| The nice thing is that it was WYDIWYG (What You Did Is
| What You Get), no writing scripts in various shell and
| emacs scripting languages, just record and playback, like
| keyboard macros for the window system.
| tomp wrote:
| No, I never reboot my Mac. (For reasonable values of
| "never", e.g. "once every 3 months".)
|
| ssh connections fail even with just sleep though,
| obviously.
| jraph wrote:
| I don't rely on it, but I often notice a ssh connection
| still working after a night with the computer being
| suspended.
|
| It requires two things:
|
| - the network does not have a short timeout after which
| it closes the connection
|
| - no side of the connection is trying to do I/O on this
| connection while one of the computers is sleeping.
| tomp wrote:
| I've been using macs for the past 10 years, and I've never
| had this problem. I've never even thought about it! I close
| the lid, I open it, it just works.
|
| Maybe it's just my (2013 Pro and M1 Air), or maybe in the
| meantime the quality dipped... All in all, as I often say,
| the best advertisement for Apple is all the other
| computers.
|
| > I've taken the habit of checking that the computer
| actually went to sleep before putting it in a bag and you
| should, too, for the one time your Mac won't go to sleep
| because who knows why.
|
| How would you even do that? If I open the lid (even just a
| bit), it turns back on immediately. Also, why do you think
| it would overheat if it accidentally didn't go to sleep?
| It's not like it's using fans while being turned _on_.
| jraph wrote:
| Good for you. You probably happen to use your Macs in a
| way you don't hit those bugs, and didn't have to deal
| with faulty hardware. I'm sure things are flawless most
| of the time too.
|
| My computers also go to sleep reliably. They are
| professional hardware, of good quality, and from
| different brands. I'm sure other models of other brands
| or of the same brands have quirks, or that there are
| people who have problems with the same hardware/software
| as mine because they use it differently.
|
| Maybe it's not that much a Mac vs the rest of the world
| thing. Evidence is that people have problems with any
| kind of hardware and brands, this is indisputable.
|
| > How would you even do that?
|
| There is usually some led visible somewhere, or a small
| noise, when the thing failed to fall asleep. You know
| your computer.
| tomp wrote:
| Sure, but for a Mac, it's a "bug" or "faulty hardware".
| For XPS (and presumably many other Windows laptops), it's
| _policy_.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Closing the lid has never worked for me on a Windows
| laptop, even the most expensiveness HP Elitebooks or
| Dell'a Latitude Pro or whatever. On my MacBook Air, it
| has never been a problem for 7 years.
|
| It is one of the main reasons I moved to Apple, it is
| just so much more convenient not having to worry about
| it.
| imbnwa wrote:
| I've owned an XPS 15 and a 2015 MBP. Had this issue with
| sleep as well as the funky multi-monitor with distinct
| DPIs issues off the bat with the XPS, _never_ had any of
| these problems with the MBP.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Can confirm, this was an issue ten years ago and I can't
| understand why it still is a problem.
|
| Mind you, I've had it with an older model Macbook as well,
| wouldn't go to sleep properly when closed / off of power / in a
| bag.
| hdjjhhvvhga wrote:
| > Besides starting up fast, another important value standby
| modes add is freeing you from having to open, position and
| initialize (open the documents/locations in them) all your apps
| manually every time. But this seems trivial to be reached by
| adding functions to just save the list of opened apps, their
| windows positions and the actual documents which were opened in
| them. This will require some coordinated effort from both the
| OS and the apps developers though.
|
| I just gave up on OS and app developers and implemented a half-
| assed solution myself using scripts. It works mainly because my
| setup is fairly fixed so I just fire everything up and fix any
| differences manually if needed.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| NeWS used to have a way to record an event stream and play it
| back later, so you could record a start-up event stream to
| play from ~/.startup.ps when you ran the NeWS server, that
| would pop up menus and open windows, start apps, position
| them on the screen, type stuff into them, click on buttons,
| etc.
|
| You had to be careful and not record setting up your desktop
| too fast, but then it worked pretty well! I would open up
| terminals on a bunch of different servers, start emacs in
| shell windows, set up my initial emacs shell window, etc. I'd
| just go take a dump and get some coffee while NeWS warmed up.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS
|
| That was the best you could do in 1986, since none of the
| Unix programs or gui apps at that time had any idea about how
| to save and restore their state, and there wasn't a standard
| desktop framework (except what NeWS provided, which was
| hardly a standard).
|
| I'm disappointed that 35 years later all window systems don't
| come with a standard built-in event recording and playback
| (and even editing) feature you can use to set up your desktop
| or execute repetitive tasks. Like visual Emacs keyboard
| macros.
| vesinisa wrote:
| This is so infuriating, because this problem has already been
| solved once. It's called "Hibernation", and was added in
| Windows 95. This should write your MEM image to disk, power the
| laptop completely off and allow later restoring where you left
| when powering your laptop back on. But laptop manufacturers
| (including Apple) thought it somehow smart to remove true
| hibernation, and replace it with some botched "deep sleep" that
| is not actually working, as it does not actually turn the
| computer OFF. This is SO infuriating - who thought it smart to
| REGRESS on a solution that has worked so well for DECADES?
| captn3m0 wrote:
| There's some really interesting security challenges that pop-
| up with Hibernation. Not sure if they blocked Apple though.
| vesinisa wrote:
| Anyone who is concerned about this should already be using
| full-disk encryption, which means the memory contents are
| actually _better_ protected during hibernation than in a
| live state.
|
| This is one thing that usually Linux gets mostly right ..
| only if the proprietary GPU drivers played along.
| Meanwhile, Microsoft and Apple certainly could implement
| this properly but instead decide to release a new half-
| assed half-hibernation after another.
| captn3m0 wrote:
| https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/55845.html
|
| I was referring to this.
| vesinisa wrote:
| AFAIK this is only an issue if you think UEFI Secure Boot
| and TPM are a good idea. The traditional way to implement
| full-disk encryption on Linux is by disabling UEFI
| validation and deriving the key from a passphrase rather
| than storing it in the TPM.
| d110af5ccf wrote:
| Personally I'd rather keep secure boot and just disable
| the kernel lockdown feature. You still gain a significant
| amount of security while maintaining functionality that
| way.
| dathinab wrote:
| Not really, this security challenge have been solved long
| ago, and require a degree of involvement which makes them
| irrelevant for most people.
| IIsi50MHz wrote:
| For people who had working hibernation, it may seem so.
|
| For support staff, and for hardware & OS vendors, dealing
| with customers complaining about hibernation or S3 sleep not
| working those states were so infuriating and definitely NOT a
| solved problem.
|
| Example failure modes: -- Doesn't wake when told. --
| Immediately wakes instead of staying in low power state. --
| Performs a cold boot when trying to wake. -- OS disables
| desired state with no explanation. -- OS disables desired
| state which has worked perfectly on that machine for
| month/years, and OS claims it has been disabled because it is
| not compatible.
| slezyr wrote:
| It might be slower than cold boot on machines with 32GB of
| RAM
| vesinisa wrote:
| I have a 64 GB Mac with SSD and managed to trick it to use
| true hibernation (Apple does not want you to know it but
| you can still achieve true hibernation by enabling disk
| encryption (FileVault(tm)) and forcing key material erasure
| from MEM on standby with `sudo pmset -a
| DestroyFVKeyOnStandBy 1`). I just timed it and bootup from
| hibernation to UI took 25 seconds, out of which maybe 5
| seconds were taken by inputtting the encryption password.
|
| Certainly not a show-stopper, if this means not
| accidentally killing my EUR2k+ laptop because it decides to
| randomly wake up in my bag.
| slezyr wrote:
| Yes, but this is an issue with Apple products. My old PC
| with not-so-fast SSD can boot (Linux and Windows) much
| faster than 16" MacBook Pro.
| vesinisa wrote:
| Sorry.. I meant exactly that 25 seconds to boot up from
| hibernation is definitely _not_ an issue. Why would it
| be? I _store_ the laptop hibernated. I need to
| dehibernate exactly once a day. I work 8 hours a day,
| meaning less then a promille of my working day is spent
| waiting for my laptop to dehibernate. It 's a non-issue.
| zokier wrote:
| Hibernation in Windows hasn't gone anywhere. I have a Dell
| laptop in front of me and it has hibernate in the start menu
| as normal.
|
| Problem is that hibernation is slooow so people don't like to
| use it
| comeonseriously wrote:
| Hibernation should not be too slow now with SSDs clocking
| upwards of 3000MB/s
| y4mi wrote:
| Why though?
|
| My drive can write with up to 3gb/s. I only have 32 gb of
| ram, so the process should take at most 10s. Generally
| less, as a lot is usually free.
| d110af5ccf wrote:
| If your drive is actually capable of sustained 3 GB/s
| write it would be ~11.5 seconds. However typical NVMe
| drives are closer to ~2 GB/s sustained which would be
| more like 17 seconds. (Note GB 8 * 10^9 bits and GiB 8 *
| 1024^3 bits.)
|
| I guess most people have 16 GiB RAM or less though. I'm
| not sure why an ~10 second wait is too long given that
| the user intentionally selected hibernate instead of
| sleep.
| [deleted]
| sprayk wrote:
| you have 32 GiB of RAM, gibibytes, meaning 32 * 1024^3.
| does your drive write at 3 GB/s (gigabytes) or Gb/s
| (gigabits)? if little b bits, it'll be more like 80 sec
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Probably "big b". 3 Gb/s (small b) is approximately 350
| MB/s (big b).
|
| My 9-year-old SATA SSD does better than that.
| [deleted]
| y4mi wrote:
| if this comment is serious i strongly suggest you inform
| yourself about nvme drives. they're absolutely worth
| their money.
|
| i haven't encountered anyone in years that didn't have at
| least one in their pc/laptop, but if you dont: i strongly
| suggest you buy one. because writing 30 Gbyte
| sequentially generally does takes about 10 seconds.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| When I got my work laptop, first thing I did is erased
| its NVMe SSD by writing garbage. It was fast first 30
| seconds. In the end sustained write speed was around 60
| MB/s. My old HDD works faster. It's fast enough in day-
| to-day usage, though.
| y4mi wrote:
| I'll be honest. i haven't encountered a single workload
| in which i had to write over 90 GByte over 30 seconds
| (3gbyte sustained for 30 seconds), so you could be
| correct. Even benchmarks are generally done within 10-15
| seconds and my IO is usually constrained by network or
| CPU at that point.
|
| not sure how that would in any way impact a hibernate
| routine which would very rarely have to store more then
| 64gb though.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > Problem is that hibernation is slooow
|
| It isn't. It can add just some seconds (probably less than
| 5 on fast SSDs, even less if you don't have too much RAM).
| If people can't wait this little they need to have their
| lives / jobs / mental health fixed rather than add more
| orders of complexity (with according increase in problems)
| into the computers.
| widerporst wrote:
| Depends on your definition of slow.
|
| On my work laptop (modern HP Elitebook), sleep doesn't
| work at all (laptop just turns on again after going to
| sleep), so I'm using hibernate exclusively. Waking up
| from hibernate takes longer than one minute.
|
| On the other hand, my private laptop (Huawei Matebook)
| wakes up from sleep in less than 10 seconds.
| Dhrhdhxbxbx wrote:
| Seems like something is wrong. Are extra BIOS checks
| enabled? My Linux Redmibook with 16 GB of RAM and a cheap
| SSD takes 5-6 seconds to restore from hibernate.
| zweifuss wrote:
| On my MateBook 13 (2020) the Fn and Shift Lock lights are
| turned on, while the laptop is still powerd on, but not
| under OS control anymore: Sleep takes 6 seconds down and
| 2 seconds up. Hibernation is 9 seconds down and 20isch
| seconds up. Shutdown is 20isch down and Boot is 22isch to
| desktop (fastboot=off).
| dragontamer wrote:
| Slower than an iPad, so more people will use a tablet to
| do their day to day activities rather than the laptop.
| kawsper wrote:
| Fedora doesn't even create swap partitions anymore, so you
| have to enable that first to enable hibernation, enabling
| it requires you to create a swap-partition, change things
| in systemd and meddle with the grub-configuration:
| https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/fedora-hibernate.html
| Dhrhdhxbxbx wrote:
| Hibernation should work fine with a swap file. I've been
| using it without issues on my Xiaomi Redmibook on a btrfs
| partition: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_managem
| ent/Suspend_an...
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| If you create a swap partition manually during
| installation and there's no secure boot, Fedora will put
| the "resume=" parameter into your grub config
| automatically.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| You still need to create `/etc/dracut.conf.d/resume.conf`
| with `add_dracutmodules+=" resume "` line and regenerate
| initramfs with `dracut -f`. Then it should work.
| sprayk wrote:
| if you use secure boot, you cannot use hibernation under
| fedora (or any Linux, afaik) since there is no way to
| "seal" the hibernation image from modification by an
| attacker who could mount the swap on another OS where
| they have root. this is regardless of disk encryption.
| d110af5ccf wrote:
| "Cannot" this is not true. It might not satisfy some sort
| of branding requirement but at the end of the day all a
| secure boot implementation does under the hood is to
| verify the kernel against the signing keys stored in the
| firmware before handing off control to it. The kernel can
| do whatever it pleases after that including granting you
| root access, joining a botnet, or, indeed, loading a
| hibernation image.
|
| As for security, the hibernation image is at risk unless
| you use full disk encryption. But then (last time I
| checked) so is the typical Linux distro because
| ultimately you (the end user) have complete control over
| the OS. That means that at some point the kernel has to
| load and run privileged code that was never signed by
| some central authority. The only alternative to this
| would be sending all drivers to be signed by someone
| else, even those you built yourself from source.
|
| tl;dr You can in fact use hibernation if you set it up,
| even with secure boot. Doing so is not a security issue.
| Lack of full disk encryption is _always_ a security issue
| if physical access is an attack vector you are concerned
| about.
| d110af5ccf wrote:
| Huh TIL. Apparently the mainline kernel got a lockdown
| feature in version 5.4 that prohibits this. Ubuntu
| started shipping with a version of the patches in 2018.
| So I guess you'll have to disable that "helpful" feature
| first if you want to restore functionality.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| Secure boot is not that useful anyway. I'm kind of
| security freak, but I decided that security boot is not
| worth it. My disk is encrypted to protect from stolen
| laptop. My BIOS and grub have password to protect from
| someone using keyboard. Scenario with someone meddling
| with my boot partition and replacing my kernel with
| modified one is just not realistic for my life. So just
| disable it and enjoy proper hibernation, that's my
| opinion.
| einnhverr wrote:
| I don't know precisely how secure boot works under
| fedora, but you can have FDE with swap just fine in
| Linux. A swap partition can live inside a LVM logical
| volume.
|
| For secure boot I would guess you could have the EFI
| partition signed/validated with the TPM.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| This.
|
| In my case, I use SecureBoot to check the boot image's
| signature (contains the kernel + initrd + boot params).
| Then it starts everything from an LVM that lives on top
| of LUKS. I always have to type in the password (never
| bothered to get the TPM working), but I don't see why the
| TPM wouldn't be able to do it.
|
| From the system boot point of view, it just starts an OS.
| The OS will then proceed to load some data in RAM. It's
| its business whether this is "fresh" data for a new boot,
| or "old" data from the last boot.
| d110af5ccf wrote:
| TBF hibernation has never been entirely reliable under
| Linux due to hardware vendors being difficult (IIUC).
| Getting it working for me has typically involved trying
| to make sense of arcane kernel log messages. I never
| managed to on my current laptop.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| I don't really understand why is it the case. I could
| understand that sleep is a complex mode, when hardware
| have to properly sleep and restore. But hibernate is just
| dumping RAM to disk. It should not require anything
| special from underlying hardware.
| IIsi50MHz wrote:
| Because reinitialising all the hardware and bringing it
| back to the same state is hard, and sometimes impossible
| with buggy hardware or whose full spec cannot be known..
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I have a Dell laptop I bought within the last couple of
| months. Hibernate is not in the start menu, and the option
| to add it to the start menu has been disabled.
|
| It's still possible to assign "hibernate" as the action
| taken in response to various power-related actions such as
| closing the lid or pressing the power button. This makes no
| sense; I'm not sure what's going on.
| RGamma wrote:
| You can enable the start menu hibernate button in
| advanced power settings:
|
| System -> Power & sleep -> Additional power settings ->
| Choose what the power buttons do -> Change settings that
| are currently unavailable -> Check Hibernate.
|
| And then get lucky that your laptop wakes up again (mine
| dies 1 out of 10 times)
|
| Edit: sorry, can't read.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| No, you can't; that option is disabled. It cannot be
| checked. I don't know how I can state this more clearly.
|
| "Turn on fast startup (recommended)" is checked, and that
| option is also disabled and can't be unchecked, despite
| obviously being undesirable.
| lozenge wrote:
| Maybe you have Group Policy settings? Sometimes "Windows
| tweaker" type apps install these. Also, mine has a link
| "Change settings that are currently unavailable" which
| shows a UAC prompt and then enables all checkboxes.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| The checkbox is disabled by default. To enable it you
| have to click the "Allow advanced options" button at the
| top of the page.
| [deleted]
| mirker wrote:
| I am quite confused. I thought Windows 10 "fast boot" was
| hibernation and default "shutdown" behavior. I thought
| Windows 10 startup times were faster because of hibernation
| shortcutting the real boot sequence.
| ymosy wrote:
| Windows 8 and later enable "fast boot" by default which,
| on shutdown, logs the user out of the current session and
| then hibernates the logged out state of the OS by writing
| the RAM contents to disk.
|
| "Full" hibernation is still there, it's just disabled by
| default in the UI but not on the OS level.
|
| There's also this "hybrid sleep" concept introduced since
| Vista where an OS would go from Sleep state to Hibernate
| automatically after 180 minutes of Sleep (IIRC, also can
| be overridden by the OEM) to save the laptop battery
| further since after the laptop hibernates it's
| effectively off.
|
| It's really confusing and a hell to troubleshoot if
| something goes wrong. I think Microsoft was trying to
| apply smart decisions on the OS level _for_ the user but
| there's no real indication of what's actually happening
| with the system. The naming doesn't help either,
| especially after "Modern Sleep" has been introduced.
|
| EDIT: I decided to check myself because I wasn't sure and
| it turns out I was indeed wrong. "Hybrid Sleep" is
| actually about a device going to Sleep and Hibernate
| simultaneously - it's so that you can still resume from
| the hibernated image on the disk in case battery dies
| while in Sleep. At the same time, you can resume from
| Sleep right away even before parallel hibernation is
| finished. I think the intention is that you kinda get the
| best of both worlds here.
|
| The behavior of going to sleep to hibernate after some
| time which I've described originally is actually
| something that was there since at least Windows XP.
| rickdeckard wrote:
| Hibernation is not slow on modern PCs (XPS-15 9500 here),
| the problem is that Windows 10 can wake the PC from
| Hibernation at any time, and there's no option in BIOS to
| prevent that. I chased all the sources using Windows Event-
| log and "powercfg /lastwake" and then disable each, but it
| took DAYS to find them all and make sure it now stays in
| hibernation.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Agree - coming back from hibernation is very fast on
| these machines (XPS-13 9300 here).
|
| I have Arch configured to hibernate on lid close, and
| it's only about 8 seconds from lid open to a working
| login.
|
| It also means I don't lose 5%-20% of my battery each
| night.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| I had this problem with mt desktop PC, which would
| randomly wake up from hibernation in the middle of the
| night. My computer was in my bedroom, so this was very
| much a problem since the bright screen would always wake
| me up. I couldn't even shut off the screen since it
| didn't have a power button (Apple Thunderbolt display).
|
| My solution was to reach around to the back of the tower
| and cycle the PSU power switch after hibernating the PC,
| every time.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| Hibernate works fine on my windows laptop, but it was not the
| default setting for lid closed. Mine has a performance switch
| built in. Close it while in high performance mode and the fan
| would continue to run at full blast. Stupid.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Hibernation took about three seconds on my Windows 98 SE
| laptop. It took three minutes on my Windows XP. It never
| finishes on modern Windows.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Time to hibernate linearly depends on amount of RAM you
| have, and whether you have HDD or SSD. On my 16GB T450
| (SSD) with Win10 it takes several seconds.
| foepys wrote:
| I use it every day on Windows 10. It takes about 30 seconds
| to go to full hibernate and 30 seconds to restore. My
| laptop has 32GB of RAM.
| amiga-workbench wrote:
| My Toshiba Libretto seems to have it built into the BIOS.
| The computer displays a full-screen animation of the Laptop
| dumping its system memory to disk, and after a few seconds
| it powers down. Its all very seamless and jank free.
| pepoluan wrote:
| I use Windows 10 Pro on Asus VivoBook 15. Hibernation takes
| approximately one minute.
| acchow wrote:
| Standby actually works 100% properly on my M1 and Intel
| MacBooks. Flush men to disk is not something I want or need.
| I quite like the instant availability and have come to expect
| it of products.
| nottorp wrote:
| > Besides starting up fast, another important value standby
| modes add is freeing you from having to open, position and
| initialize (open the documents/locations in them) all your apps
| manually every time.
|
| Wait, Windows still doesn't do that?
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Nope. I came back to MS Windows for work a couple of years
| ago -- it's ironically terrible at managing windows.
|
| It does have virtual desktops now at least.
|
| There are third-party solutions.
|
| MS need better window management.
| danmur wrote:
| Your last point is why I use hibernate. The actual boot time is
| barely noticeable on new laptops but even if I remember what I
| was doing when I hibernated it, which is rare, it still takes a
| while to get all my terminal windows back and everything where
| it was.
| xbar wrote:
| Learned the hard way in 2003.
| neuromancer2600 wrote:
| I had a Dell XPS 9310 until about 3 months ago when suddenly one
| of the fans died on me for no obvious reasons while I was in
| quarantine. Given that the fans are now soldered onto the
| mainboard, Dell was offering me to repair this for almost the
| same amount I paid for the whole laptop 2 years earlier. Needless
| to say that this was the last time I will buy a Dell.
|
| Since I am located in Asia, I also went to one of the
| unauthorized repair shops to see if they could offer a cheaper
| way to get this done. When I walked in, I saw two customers in
| front of me with Dells. When it was my turn, I also asked which
| laptop brands are having the most and least issues. Not
| surprisingly, Lenovo and Dell rank very high. The Taiwanese
| (Asus, Acer) as well as Razer and hp were considered of higher
| quality.
| senkora wrote:
| Anecdotally, I know three people including myself who've had
| ASUS machines die on them right out of warranty protection, and
| I do not recommend them at all.
| vertis wrote:
| Apple as well. I have a 2018 15" Macbook Pro with problems:
| - The battery is dying - The touchbar flickers whenever
| it is 'off' - a hardware fault that requires the full top case
| to replaced[1] - Quotes of $400-1200.
|
| And things that aren't technically problems but still have the
| same, can't do anything about it stuck with the problem vibe:
| - I keep running out of space, but it's soldered to the logic
| board - Keyboard is one of those shitty butterfly
| keyboards - It's always heat throttling
|
| Granted, I might be able to get some of them fixed, but not
| without major inconvenience of being without my laptop for some
| period of time.
|
| I've used Macs since the Apple Mac IIx, but I really hate the
| can't fix your own computer thing that has taken over in the
| last few years, for both Apple and others.
|
| If Framework[2] offered a 15" or 17" version, I would be there
| in a heartbeat, but the 13" is just too small considering I
| don't use an external monitor.
|
| [1]: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2017-mbp-touchbar-
| flash... [2]: https://frame.work
| avianlyric wrote:
| With the M1 Macs Apple have done quite a lot to address these
| issues.
|
| The M1 MacBook Air I'm using feels as reliable and cool as
| mid 2000 MacBook. Complete night and day difference to the
| hot mess which was my previous 2018 MacBook Pro.
|
| I still wish Framework would scale faster and start selling
| the the EU today. But building a hardware company is slow and
| hard.
| vertis wrote:
| My GF has a M1 mac and is quite happy with it. I have a
| problem rewarding Apple with another purchase, given the
| dismal performance of this machine.
|
| The 2018 mac was a top of the line purchase. I think it
| came to about $5000 AUD if memory serves. It's essentially
| worthless now because I can't sell it in it's current
| state.
|
| I might cave when they update the 16in to M1X sometime
| soon, but I won't be happy about it.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| There was a period of time when Apple really seemed to have
| lost their way with the MacBooks. I had a 2013 that was
| flawless. Then the lease was up and my company sent me a 2017
| model to replace it. That machine was never much good.
| Randomly slow, awful keyboard, etc. Luckily the battery
| decided to become a balloon, and so my replacement is a newer
| 16-inch MBP. The new MBP seems to have addressed all of the
| stupidity that was going on in 2017 and 2018. And I bought a
| 2020 M1 MBP for myself, and it has also been quite solid. I
| don't want to say that Apple necessarily fixed all of their
| stupidity or really learned anything, but _someone_ there
| still appears to give a shit.
| michaelanckaert wrote:
| I've been using my MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014)
| for the last 7 years, fortunately without any issues! I've
| never had to have any repairs or replacement done to it.
|
| A small dent and some scratches in the lid are the worst
| problems I have.
|
| I have been holding out over the entire touchbar, keyboard
| and other debacles and will probably go for the new updated
| Pro model by the end of the year.
|
| Let's hope my next purchase lasts as long as this machine has
| :)
| bluedino wrote:
| I'm trying to think back to when Dell made a 'good' laptop.
| Maybe the D630? Lenovo was still better, but what Dell sells
| now is just terrible.
| barrkel wrote:
| You have to weight brands with the most issues vs market
| dominance vs likelihood of being seen by someone who observes
| the problem.
|
| If most laptops are Dells, then most problems will be on Dell
| machines, even if a niche brand is lower reliability.
|
| If most Apple laptops are taken to an Apple store, then a PC
| laptop repair shop won't see problems with Apple laptops.
|
| And so on.
| rkagerer wrote:
| I started disabling Sleep/Hibernate on all my machines a decade
| ago. Everything just worked better without it. Sad to see they
| still haven't sorted it out.
| timpattinson wrote:
| My XPS 9560 has woken up from sleep randomly more times than I
| can count. It's sometimes happened in my backpack and always gets
| stupid hot. There is a definite issue here.
| sega_sai wrote:
| Funny enough, I actually had a plenty of issues with XPS and
| Linux. The machine would not go to sleep when I closed the lid
| and put it in the bag. The result - an extremely hot and loud
| laptop. I think that may have been a BIOS issue, as it stopped
| happening after a year or so.
| ThePhysicist wrote:
| Often it's a problem with the Linux ACPI settings. I had to
| write a script that checks entries in /proc/acpi/wakeup and
| disables them as the laptop will otherwise often immediately
| come back from sleep due to being woken by the ethernet card or
| another device. That's not specific to Dell devices. Otherwise
| checking syslog often reveals why going to sleep failed,
| sometimes it's a particular program that refuses to freeze.
|
| Here's the script btw for those that have the same problem,
| you'll need to modify the identifiers based on your hardware
| after identifying which devices cause the problem
| #!/bin/bash (cat /proc/acpi/wakeup | grep "GLAN" | grep
| "enabled") && echo "GLAN" > /proc/acpi/wakeup (cat
| /proc/acpi/wakeup | grep "XHC" | grep "enabled") && echo "XHC"
| > /proc/acpi/wakeup
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| Hardly relevant to the topic at hand, but I'd simplify this
| to grep 'GLAN.*enabled' /proc/acpi/wakeup &&
| echo GLAN >/proc/acpi/wakeup grep 'XHC.*enabled'
| /proc/acpi/wakeup && echo XHC >/proc/acpi/wakeup
| 41209 wrote:
| I always feel like laptops have actually started to degrade in
| the last decade. Maybe it's consumerism, but fairly often I get
| the idea they just assume after two or three years their products
| will fail.
|
| I can personally vouch for Acer though, while I haven't purchased
| one of their laptops recently, when I was younger I had one I
| just abused the hell out of and it still worked fine.
|
| It's very fun to make your stuff last longer
| Sayrus wrote:
| The thing is, XPS laptop have issues going to S3 Sleep/Modern
| Standby. There are many threads about battery draining due to
| this.
|
| The question is, why isn't the laptop shutting down properly when
| it begins to overheat inside a bag? In any case, this will
| probably not void the warranty in most countries.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Under no circumstances should you leave a laptop powered on and
| in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag,
| backpack, or in an overhead bin. The PC will overheat as a result
| of that action.
|
| Did they change the meaning of "hibernate"? Showing it in the
| "power" menu has also been disabled, though you can assign it to
| the power _button_ and then press the button.
| seqizz wrote:
| I have a 9310, it took some time to realize the laptop was not
| sleeping because it has no indicators. After some digging I
| realized the culprit was sensors which woke the system
| immediately after any slight movement. I'm now removing intel_hid
| module automatically before sleeping, no more issues since. But I
| must admit, this fault is moronic.
| hsnewman wrote:
| I worked as a consultant for a while, and we needed light fast
| laptops. My boss once told me that he would blanket his laptop in
| order to have it fail so he could request a new model. Dell
| voiding warranties for someone who would do that is perfectly
| understandable.
| gertrunde wrote:
| There's a whole bunch of reasons I keep disabling modern standby
| on my laptop. (And that's 'keep disabling' because either Dell or
| Microsoft keep switching it back on after updates - note this is
| a Windows feature, not a Dell-specific thing).
|
| [Edit: In addition, the reg key to disable it keeps changing from
| release to release...]
|
| The two most annoying ones:
|
| 1 - while in the middle of a VoIP call via a wireless headset,
| lock laptop while walking away from desk to make a cup of tea in
| the next room, 30 seconds later laptop goes into 'standby',
| cutting off the call...
|
| 2 - WiFi never wakes back up properly out of modern standby,
| either disable/re-enable, or disconnect/reconnect works to bring
| it back perfectly ok.
| ta988 wrote:
| Never had any issue like that with a zbook on Linux.
| dirtyoldmick wrote:
| if you leave it on and put it in a bag it's going to overheat.
| mindcrime wrote:
| _Under no circumstances should you leave a laptop powered on and
| in any sleep /hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag,
| backpack, or in an overhead bin. The laptop will overheat as a
| result of that action._
|
| IOW, all modern Dell laptops are defective by design. Crazy that
| they can ship something this broken and stay in business...
| tbenst wrote:
| Similar issues for me on Precision 5520 (stock Ubuntu). Laptop
| nearly fried itself in my backpack from overheating---can't
| reason causally for sure but seems like it destroyed a chip
| involved with power regulation and damaged some liquid crystals
| in the display.
| ajb wrote:
| "Modern Standby"
|
| Good language example here: "Modern" is nearly always an advocacy
| word. Literally it just means "up to date", but in fact it is
| almost always used in the sense of "this should be the successor
| of what you currently have, you should feel bad about what I
| designate as outdated". Sometimes this is justifiable, but...
| blunte wrote:
| This happened to me several times with my 2017 XPS, and as well
| to my business partner with the same laptop.
|
| It would get so hot that you could barely touch it to pull it
| out. I'm amazed there were no fires from this.
| Foomf wrote:
| And this is why I got a passively cooled laptop without a fan.
| It's very weak, but it's worth it to not have any anxiety about
| it overheating in my bag. Absolutely fantastic for college.
| robotburrito wrote:
| This was the primary reason I switched to Apple about 10 years
| ago. I just wanted a laptop I could reliably shut and open and
| have it act like I expect it to.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Dell has always been a mid-to-trash brand but this is hilariously
| awful
| Causality1 wrote:
| Modern laptops are fucking infuriating this way. I always go over
| my sleep and shutdown settings, trying to make things as "off" as
| possible yet they never seem to quite get there. Devices that are
| supposed to be turned off die overnight. Devices that are
| supposed to be off still show as connected to the wifi router. It
| makes you have zero faith in your computer when you do everything
| you can to turn it off and it still loses most of its charge
| after a day in your bag.
| GeorgeOu wrote:
| It was frustrating how my Dell XPS Laptop would frequently wake
| up in the laptop bag. When I open the bag, the laptop was near
| smoking hot. I fixed it by disabling Modern Standby but a
| Microsoft update killed that registry hack and I was forced to
| fully shut down the laptop.
|
| Then my work Dell Precision 5530 started doing the same thing and
| I'm forced to shut it down. The problem was that particular
| laptop took several minutes to boot due to a slow BIOS post and
| corporate bloatware.
| neycoda wrote:
| I did this accidentally with an old Latitude in a backpack, and
| either the laptop woke up or the fan kept blowing while Windows
| was asleep, and when I opened the bag it was HOT!! Freaked me
| out, thankfully no damage to anything, but this may have caused
| the hard drive issues I had if the drive was working while in
| transit.
|
| These reasons are why I use hibernate or shutdown before transit,
| and I have my lid settings to hibernate upon closed (plugged in
| or battery), just to be safe.
| npteljes wrote:
| Windows wakes up the computer all the fucking time, and this is
| the reason why they don't take responsibility. Frankly it's not
| just dangerous, as noted in the faq, but very creepy as well: it
| feels like someone tampered with it, because it's not in the
| state you left it in. I wish they weren't so successful with all
| their bullshit.
| julianlam wrote:
| It happened fairly regularly that in the middle of the night
| I'd hear the windows notification chime, because my wife's
| desktop decided to wake up and do things.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| Dell could solve this. Seems easy enough to notice that the
| laptop is closed, sleeping, and overheating. At that point the
| firmware could do something about it.
| rognjen wrote:
| I had this issue when using Windows but not on Linux. Sleep
| worked fine on Linux.
| chippiewill wrote:
| Not on brand new Intel laptops. They've now removed s3 sleep
| hardware support.
| floatboth wrote:
| Why would it ever _break_?
|
| Countless times I've had my laptops fail to suspend due to kernel
| bugs (heh), fall into a spin loop (e.g. in a kernel panic) and
| get quite hot in my backpack. Nothing broke.
| joebob42 wrote:
| This fried my laptop and I assumed it was the stupid machines
| fault, I can't believe I'm just now learning windows itself is to
| blame. How is this bug even possible?
| harry8 wrote:
| I own a Dell xps laptop. I will never buy anything from dell
| again if there's anything remotely competitive.
|
| Nice to see in this thread that it's not just bad luck. It's Dell
| all the way.
| undoware wrote:
| I installed linux to fix this problem (it did, at the cost of the
| camera, which stopped working.)
|
| Under linux, tho, I've watched my battery max-charge decline 32%
| in about eighteen months.
|
| My theory is that the XPS uses some sort Windows-integrated
| software to determine when the charge in the battery is
| critically (=battery-damagingly) low. If there's a firmware or
| hardware failsafe, it's too generous.
|
| Linux lacks this integration, so the laptop chews up its battery
| instead of going into suspend.
|
| My old Linux-running ThinkPad did not do this, IIRC. If I fell
| asleep with it beside me in bed, it would eventually power down
| at about 3% charge. Not great, not terrible.
|
| Yeah, eyeing the Framework here also.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| This is why the M1 iPad would be amazing as an open hardware
| platform... my 10 year old iPad loses a couple percent a day
| while asleep.
| hcurtiss wrote:
| It seems likely to me that's true because it is not an open
| platform.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| This has been a problem with Dell laptops since as long as I've
| been using them (2002).
| oakfr wrote:
| MacBook folks: we're in 2021. These laptops turn on and off very
| quickly. Forget about sleep, hibernation etc. Just shut it down.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Yet another reason to dislike Microsoft Windows.
| alkonaut wrote:
| XPS (And the precision equivalents) overheat even outside bags,
| if you just leave them on long enough. I have had 2 in a row now
| that don't work properly after being powered on for a few months.
| The battery must be LiPo or something (Which would be a
| completely terrible idea in a laptop because it changes size with
| charge).
|
| Just build the damn things to work when plugged in for long
| periods of time. I'm not going to power it down every week or
| even every month. I just want it to run quiet and cool, and I'd
| be happy for it to be twice as thick and have half the battery if
| that what's needed.
|
| Or why not just make it work _without the battery_ so I can keep
| the battery on a shelf until one of the few days per year I need
| it?
| anjc wrote:
| Had this issue with my XPS 9570. I also had the heatsink issue
| that is well documented by now, and upon opening it found further
| significant manufacturing defects that Dell refused to
| acknowledge.
|
| Never buying a Dell again. It's a pity because they appear solid
| and well-made from appearances and specs.
| julianlam wrote:
| I find this feature(tm) infuriating. It's one of the first things
| I disable when I format the laptop.
|
| The battery drain for me much more significant, on the order of
| 30% per day. Oftentimes I would open my laptop after a day or two
| and it would be at a critical level if not outright dead.
|
| I kept forgetting exactly how to fix it, since finding the right
| sites online required quite the exact combination of black magic
| keywords (since it's much easier to find articles sleep vs
| hibernation). Until today, actually, I had not been aware of the
| term "modern suspend".
|
| I use Linux, so here's how to disable modern suspend:
| https://devnull.land/laptop-s2idle-to-deep
| mihaaly wrote:
| 'How to ruin the user experience' training in master level!
|
| There is some marginally/sometimes/circumstantially useful
| fetur.... no, not feature... thing, that requires extensive
| attention to avoid permanent damage to your precious data and
| other properties. Gives some wee bit convenience but cause lots
| of inconvenience and the prospect of serious damage.
|
| Way to go Dell! : /
| [deleted]
| notorandit wrote:
| > Under no circumstances should you leave a laptop powered on and
| in any sleep/hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag,
| backpack, or in an overhead bin. The PC will overheat as a result
| of that action. Any resulting damage will not be covered by the
| Dell warranty.
|
| A PC in sleep/hibernate/standby mode is not OFF. It's in a (very)
| low power mode.
| Dayshine wrote:
| Hibernate is off. You can pull the battery and put it back just
| fine.
| notorandit wrote:
| Buy a Tuxedo Computer!
| JeremyNT wrote:
| Note, this isn't Dell specific - the loss of s3 sleep is coming
| from Intel and Microsoft. The idea is that S0ix is supposed to
| "replace" s3, but (at least on Linux) it's a horrible mess.
|
| I have a System76/Clevo - ostensibly one of the better choices
| for running Linux - and S0ix _at best_ drains like ~5% of my
| battery overnight, and at worst it doesn 't work at all.
|
| Some will quip that I shouldn't expect sleep to work on Linux
| anyway, but this defies my experience with S3 on Linux (which has
| "just worked" for the last decade for me) so this is a
| substantial downgrade.
|
| Do yourself a favor and avoid Tiger Lake and newer if you care
| about reliable sleep.
| system2 wrote:
| This is why my XPS13 laptop's battery is swollen. It was
| extremely hot many times I pulled it out of the bag.
|
| And because of the battery swell, I cannot use the trackpad
| clicks anymore. Dell should recall and help customers.
| esalman wrote:
| I bought an Alienware laptop in 2010. I booted it up in the shop,
| then packed it up thinking I've shut it down. After I got home I
| found out that it went to sleep in the middle of setting up
| process.
|
| I used it at varying capacities all the way until last year when
| I lost it in an apartment fire.
| dexterlagan wrote:
| XPS15 owner here. Had this exact problem during the first year of
| ownership. Somehow Windows updates changed this behavior and I
| haven't had any more battery draining / overheating in bag since.
| But I will not buy Dell again. Too many little problems. I
| haven't had ONE problem of this kind with ThinkPad's, in maybe 25
| years of use.
| dagw wrote:
| _I haven 't had ONE problem of this kind with ThinkPad_
|
| My P series ThinkPad does this all the time.
| errantspark wrote:
| Imagine if we had the technology to, when a laptop was in a
| hibernated or off state to use some sort of a mechanism to
| physically disconnect the battery. I know this is absolutely
| crazy but it seems to me that this would solve these problems in
| a foolproof way that wouldn't lead to the situation where your
| mission critical piece of equipment has killed it's battery, or
| itself entirely because it decided to do something you didn't
| want. Imagine a physical device capable of making and unmaking an
| electrical connection based on the angle or position of a
| physical component that is then unable to be superseded by bad
| programming. Imagine.
| [deleted]
| darzu wrote:
| I think this is a good idea. Like a physical disconnect for
| camera and mics. At some level, I just don't trust software,
| especially nothing as complex as an OS, to do the right thing
| 100% of the time.
|
| Although frankly I've never had issues like this with a Mac.
| I've never taken a mac out of a bag and had the battery dead or
| laptop hot.
| IlliOnato wrote:
| 10-14 years ago my Dell laptops had removable battery. I did
| not use it to ensure anything (hibernation worked perfectly for
| me these days), but I would carry with me a spare fully-charged
| battery. Two batteries usually were enough for a cross-Atlantic
| trip, which was a frequent feature of my life.
| basicplus2 wrote:
| Perhaps a device with a movable metal plate that disconnects a
| wire.. we could call it an 'Off Switch'
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