[HN Gopher] Decentralizing the Internet's Root
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Decentralizing the Internet's Root
        
       Author : carride
       Score  : 77 points
       Date   : 2021-09-22 15:31 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.ipfs.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.ipfs.io)
        
       | dackdel wrote:
       | explained-from-first-principles.com/
        
       | tristor wrote:
       | I am sure this is not the objective here, but this article was so
       | badly written and inaccurate that it made me lose respect for the
       | IPFS project. There are a lot of technical assertions that aren't
       | just wrong, they're absurdly false, within this article.
        
         | animanoir wrote:
         | Which parts exactly?
        
           | tristor wrote:
           | Almost every word in this section for starters:
           | https://blog.ipfs.io/decentralizing-the-internet-s-
           | root/#an-...
           | 
           | Did you read the article?
        
           | tribler wrote:
           | > Imagine if all Twitter users had 'verified' status and you
           | could also find them across their other social apps without
           | any risk of following fake or wrong accounts by mistake.
           | 
           | Without any risks? Ideas from self-sovereign identity are
           | somewhat included in this promo. Does this service include
           | hiring notaries to check state-issued IDs to verify
           | identities? Risk-free IDs are unsolved I believe.
        
         | TeMPOraL wrote:
         | I was just about to submit an equivalent comment, so I'll
         | piggyback on yours. I feel just like you, plus, I also hate to
         | see them promoting another crypto scam attempt at taking over a
         | piece of global infrastructure to make a quick buck.
         | 
         | I like IPFS as protocol. I didn't mind their work on Filecoin,
         | as it made sense in context. But every time I check, they seem
         | to be getting more and more in bed with dubious cryptocurrency
         | initiatives. At this point I'm no longer willing to advocate
         | for IPFS itself.
        
           | tristor wrote:
           | It's very disappointing, because I think the IPFS protocol
           | has legs, but unfortunately they're promoting what I believe
           | amounts to crypto grift here, and they're not even doing a
           | good job at that promotion. There might even be a viable use
           | case for an alternative root on blockchain, but this
           | implementation with pre-mined associated coins and uncapped
           | pricing is not it.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | This is yet another NFT thing.
       | 
       | The NFT fad seems to be reaching peak Ponzi.
       | 
       | Axie seems to be the worst. This has become a huge fad in the
       | Philippines. It's sort of like Pokemon, except that it costs
       | about $1000 to get into the game. For a few months, poor people
       | were buying into this and making enough money to quit their job.
       | Then the supply of suckers ran out. The token is down 85% from
       | peak.
       | 
       | There are now metaverse NFTs with "presales". The promoters don't
       | bother creating a virtual world; they just sell "land" in one
       | that doesn't exist yet, with vague promises of a future
       | implementation. That's almost certainly an illegal public
       | offering of an security under US law. (Look up "Howey test").
       | 
       | Even Decentraland, the NFT-based virtual world, only has 275
       | people logged in right now.[1] (Compared to about 40,000 for
       | Second Life, over a million for Roblox...) People who bought
       | "land" in Decentraland for a "virtual store" are not getting much
       | traffic.
       | 
       | The SEC shut down most of the ICO scammers. NFTs were invented as
       | an end run around securities law. Since each one is different,
       | they're not a commodity, so the CFTC lacks jurisdiction. If they
       | represent a real world thing, they're a collectable, not a
       | security. But most of the newer NFTs represent nothing.
       | 
       | Getting away from uppity domain registrars would help.
       | Originally, you owned a domain. Now, registrars take the position
       | that you just rent it from them. But NFTs are not the answer. Too
       | many scams and scammers.
       | 
       | [1] https://catalyst-monitor.vercel.app/
        
         | jekkos wrote:
         | I smell a false analogy fallacy. Axie NFTs are fad so just
         | avoid all NFTs at all cost?
         | 
         | I think that the concept of an NFT is quite a useful one, and
         | you should maybe not consider the value of it as a first thing.
         | 
         | Domain names were also speculated upon in the early days.
         | Remember people buying up 3 or 4 letter dommain just to sell
         | them for more money?
         | 
         | It's just a change in the trustmodel behind DNS that is really
         | needed here. Instead of trusting a chain of certificate
         | authorities you can trust a blockchain's consensus mechanism
         | instead.
        
         | knownjorbist wrote:
         | > NFTs were invented as an end run around securities law.
         | 
         | Uh, no, NFTs are a standard as defined here:
         | 
         | https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/standards/tokens/erc...
        
       | arcade79 wrote:
       | Skipping past the telnet bollox pointed out by others, the next
       | paragraph is the following gem:
       | 
       | "Browsers started using a centralized resolution system called
       | the domain name system (DNS) to make things more user-friendly
       | when the internet became more widespread. Instead of typing
       | 208.65.153.238 into the address bar, a user could simply type
       | "youtube.com," and DNS would do all the work for them"
       | 
       | Given that web browsers appeared in 1989, and DNS appeared
       | between 1983 and 1987, we can safely say that DNS came before
       | browsers.
       | 
       | Before that, folks kept a 'hosts' file updated.
       | 
       | Truly remarkable how much that page gets wrong. And to think it's
       | just a blockchain variant of alt roots. :P You can read more
       | about alt roots here:
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root
       | 
       | The Internet Architecture Board spoke out strongly against alter
       | roots in May 2000, in RFC 2826:
       | https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2826
       | 
       | It's weird how folks forget history.
        
         | stormbrew wrote:
         | Not that I think this project will go anywhere its antecedents
         | haven't already, but...
         | 
         | > Given that web browsers appeared in 1989, and DNS appeared
         | between 1983 and 1987, we can safely say that DNS came before
         | browsers.
         | 
         | I mean the telnet thing is really wrong but this really just
         | seems like picking on nothing to me. I don't think the intent
         | there was literally to say "dns came along and changed how we
         | used browsers" but to contextualize the use of names vs. ips in
         | terms people in a modern computing context will understand more
         | easily.
         | 
         | (That people had other means of managing host names before dns
         | is a better criticism, but still kind of misses the point of
         | what they're saying)
        
           | tptacek wrote:
           | Nah. It's an attempt to cast the discussion about name policy
           | as a simple technical concern --- before we landed on this
           | weird DNS thing, it suggests, everyone was just typing IP
           | addresses into address bars. But of course, there's much more
           | to it than that: the names themselves are of immense value,
           | and there is a massive commercial and public policy debate
           | over how they should be administered. And when you think
           | about how central those names are to how the Internet works,
           | you're immediately left wondering how the hell some random
           | coin should be in the mix.
           | 
           | I don't think it's ignorance motivating that text.
        
       | wrs wrote:
       | "The internet was the evolution of telnet, which allowed users to
       | connect to bulletin board systems via phone lines. However,
       | connecting to those systems required that the user know the
       | connection address and port."
       | 
       | What? This is so confused that it's "not even wrong". Did GPT-3
       | write this? :)
       | 
       | As for the part that is just wrong, there's never been an
       | internet where you had to know the connection address (there were
       | periodically updated host files) and you never needed to specify
       | the port for telnet (it's a "well known port").
        
         | jareklupinski wrote:
         | i think they meant to write 'phone number'
         | 
         | not sure about the port, most of my modem-to-modem
         | communication was very low-level (and did not last long :) )
        
           | wrs wrote:
           | Telnet is a protocol on the Internet, not a predecessor of
           | the Internet. To connect to a BBS using phone lines, you just
           | dialed its phone number; this has no relation to the
           | Internet. Even if we generously consider a phone number to be
           | a "connection address", there's no "port" involved and DNS
           | has nothing to do with phone numbers.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | anonymousisme wrote:
             | You're mostly right. I believe DNS has support for VoIP
             | "phone numbers." https://www.onsip.com/voip-resources/voip-
             | fundamentals/dns-s...
        
         | Thoreandan wrote:
         | > As for the part that is just wrong, there's never been an
         | internet where you had to know the connection address (there
         | were periodically updated host files)
         | 
         | Not necessarily. If your Internet connection was via KA9Q NOS
         | over a DOS packet driver running SLFP (the predecessor to
         | SLIP), you had to keep your own hosts file, and people would
         | trade things like Scott Yannoff's list. If you look at
         | http://www.nic.funet.fi/index/gnu/funet/historical-funet-gnu...
         | for example, they'd list IP addresses and ports because some
         | users didn't have systems connected to DNS.
         | 
         | People aren't talking about Telnet(23/tcp) as a protocol, they
         | use that terminology because the command-line unix "telnet"
         | client when connecting to a non-Telnet-service (meaning doesn't
         | exchange WILL/WONT handshakes etc) on another port, it
         | effectively acted like netcat. So if there was a cool game
         | listening on 10.123.45.6 port 2000, people would type "telnet
         | 10.123.45.6 2000" to connect to the game from many places.
        
           | wrs wrote:
           | I never understood why that sort of list wasn't just a hosts
           | file. But I wasn't really involved in the SLFP world; maybe
           | it didn't support hosts files?
           | 
           | I guess my POV is that before DNS was introduced, the
           | Internet had a hosts file you were expected to keep up to
           | date, and after DNS, if you didn't have DNS, what you had
           | wasn't quite "the Internet".
        
         | soco wrote:
         | Am I that old that I actually know what you mean and find it
         | funny?
        
       | p2p_astroturf wrote:
       | Let me think out loud for a second.
       | 
       | Naming is solved by petname systems - just using a local address
       | book that decides what name (if any) will be shown for what
       | public key - it costs nothing, it doesnt need a blockchain.
       | Unlike all other solutions, it actually _is_ secure. The only
       | reason you'd ever arrive at something that is not petnames, after
       | learning of the existence of cryptography, is because you are
       | overengineering and falling for boogeyman SSL CAs want you to
       | believe in. Commerce is not good or healthy in P2P networks, it
       | is a last resort. Any time you hear about an economic model,
       | incentivizations, etc, you can be 99.99% sure the company has
       | designed it this way with money as their first interest, before
       | utility. And not only that, but money will be practically their
       | only interest. Thousands of P2P products and secure messaging
       | have been astroturfed by people (corporations, and startups,
       | which have no practical difference) "solving" Snowden's problem
       | since the NSA revelations.
       | 
       | Nobody actually uses blockchains. They go on whateverscan.io and
       | lookup their transaction there to confirm they were paid.
       | 
       | If you visit a bank and sign up, they should be giving you a
       | public key, not a domain name. Not a name in namecoin or whatever
       | this article is talking about that you need to download a
       | blockchain for and have a computer fast enough to keep up with on
       | 24/7. Also, you give them your public key. You shouldn't be
       | giving them a TWITTER (seriously wtf, this is like using Steam
       | for chatting with your girlfriend), no not your facebook either,
       | not even your Google. I should give them a fresh public key I can
       | use to authenticate myself.
       | 
       | Any blockchain aside from a small few (like Bitcoin, early
       | Bitcoin at least) are essentially a series of logos and nothing
       | more. They have not contributed one thing to actual
       | decentralization. A good giveaway would be that not a single one
       | has a proper CLI aside from Bitcoin. Not even Ethereum does. They
       | all want you to use a bloated, intrinsically insecure web browser
       | for everything, which cannot even work on more than two pages
       | without billions of man hours. Naming is NOT solved by
       | blockchains - it is not known whether blockchains will ever be
       | trustless. Aside from the trend towards centralization from
       | pools, at some point the data moves too fast for an individual to
       | run a validating node.
       | 
       | IPFS seem to friends with Cloudflare. I don't what their
       | relationship is (the former do truly seem to care about making
       | something good, but are just naive on top of ignoring existing
       | solutions), but I would not trust anything remotely related to
       | Cloudflare ever. They have broke Tor for LITERALLY 10 years
       | (~2011-2018, and after 2018 you still need to muck around with
       | user agent and other headers) for no reason other than to market
       | a snakeoil WAF (yes WAF, this is the WAF doing this shit. The Tor
       | blocking was never about DDoS) to their users (aside from the
       | possibility of them being NSA'd). If I was in charge of IPFS, I'd
       | be writing blog posts explaining to Cloudflare while basic best
       | practices for the internet include not blocking IPs for a decade.
       | You know? You can't communicate with Cloudflare and keep a
       | straight face when proclaiming to be making the decentralized web
       | replacement.
       | 
       | IPFS sucks. Multihash, multibase, multiaddr, multiwhatever is a
       | TERRIBLE idea.
       | 
       | So what's the alternative to IPFS? Freenet, another thing that
       | has no use without webshit, as they forgot to implement a
       | document format (which is also needed to implement petnames).
       | 
       | I have no idea why one would be enthusiastic about a tech company
       | (not IPFS, the other crap) creating a P2P product, when tech
       | companies in America have not produced a single good piece of
       | software in 20 years.
       | 
       | > but bro, you are not thinking about my wallet, everything you
       | say is bad for business
       | 
       | No shit. I am speaking as someone who wants to have a pseudonym
       | and exchange information online without dealing with corpocrap
       | and webshit. I don't need my services to send someone to my house
       | to make sure it's really me. I want actual real decentralized
       | technology. I like exchanging information. I don't give a shit
       | about commerece. I like what the internet is actually for:
       | Hosting a hacking blog, talking to people far away, sharing code,
       | sharing cracks for stupid software that wants me to buy 10 copies
       | of the game to have a 2 hour LAN copy, etc (yes, I have made all
       | of these). Without laws and other things that only exist to serve
       | stupid people. I should be able to code an entire conforming
       | implementation myself. This doesn't have to be user friendly.
       | There needs to be something that's actually good and secure for
       | people who know what they're doing.
       | 
       | Handshake? WTF is this? It's named a verb. That means they have a
       | whole actual marketer (or one of those "hackers" that is really
       | more into fads and brand names than programming).
        
       | alangibson wrote:
       | HNS looks a lot like a protocol designed to make Namebase some
       | quick cash. So it's all on the blockchain, but to get a name you
       | have to buy it auction with tokens minted by Namebase. They've
       | managed to make the costs of a domain uncapped, except the domain
       | is also useless because no one but Brave respects their root.
       | 
       | In case you have any doubts that this an NFTified pyramid scheme,
       | check out this gem from their "Earn HNS" page:
       | 
       | > For any HNS your friend buys, you get +20% HNS and they get
       | +10%
        
         | lifty wrote:
         | The tokens were not minted by Namebase. HNS can be mined and
         | there was a wide initial distribution, many of them including
         | to large OSS project s.
        
           | alangibson wrote:
           | Their giveaway didn't go to well. They planned to give away
           | "70% of the initial supply" to developers, but...
           | 
           | > To date, around 25 million HNS (1.83% of the initial
           | supply, 1.23% of the fully diluted) has been claimed through
           | the developer airdrop.
           | 
           | They can't even give HNS away, however...
           | 
           | > The discrepancy between the total possible number of
           | airdrop claims and the actual number of airdrop claims can be
           | explained by the fact that eligible developers need to have
           | their SSH keys from 2019 in order to complete the claim. ...
           | Without their old SSH keys, it's impossible for eligible
           | developers to claim the airdrop.
           | 
           | they made the extremely hard to claim?
        
             | lifty wrote:
             | You're mistaken. Namebase is an independent registar for
             | HNS domains and it's not the same as the Handshake project,
             | which did the actual distribution of the coins.
             | 
             | I'm surprised people haven't heard about this project, they
             | have been linked on HN many times before.
             | 
             | Edit: typo
        
               | alangibson wrote:
               | Seems to be a common point of confusion. So much so that
               | it's on their FAQ:
               | 
               | https://www.namebase.io/faq/#did-namebase-make-handshake
               | 
               | I'm sure I and many others have heard of it before. It's
               | just that there are so many of these 'X but Blockchain'
               | ideas that come and go all the time that is just turns
               | into a blur.
        
       | mettamage wrote:
       | So, silly question perhaps. I genuinely don't know. Is blockchain
       | handy for this decentralizing part of DNS or DNS entirely?
       | 
       | Suppose a blockchain network, or networks, knows all the TLD
       | server IPs (I don't have DNS sharp in my mind, sorry for that).
       | 
       | You can transfer ownership of a domain to someone else. I think
       | conceptually it's an NFT right? Not that it is art, but domains
       | aren't fungible I think. So it is non-fungible. So you could wrap
       | each non-fungible domain in a token on a network, making it an
       | NFT.
       | 
       | I wonder what the actual issues will be. Striving for a
       | decentralized DNS with whatever technique one would use seems to
       | be a good thing IMO. The internet is for us all.
       | 
       | Edit: Ohhh this article _is_ actually using a blockchain solution
       | called namebase. When I was skimming, I saw IPFS so I thought
       | somehow IPFS was used instead. That was more subtly interwoven in
       | the story than I thought.
        
         | evbots wrote:
         | coinbase is to namebase
         | 
         | as bitcoin is to handshake
        
         | miohtama wrote:
         | The most popular decentralised domain name system is ENS. While
         | domains are not called NFTs (ENS predates the term) it
         | functions more or less how you described.
         | 
         | https://ens.domains/
        
         | alfl wrote:
         | Not a silly question, I think you've described Namecoin.
        
         | jonahbenton wrote:
         | Conceptually, there is an important distinction between
         | "mechanism" and "policy." There are many, many mechanisms for
         | handling legal/technical control/ownership/system of
         | record/etc. This is a problem with solutions that date to the
         | beginning of civilization. Whether mechanism is pieces of paper
         | in a vault or replicated records in different jurisdictions or
         | hashes on blockchain matters only on the margins.
         | 
         | Policy is the hard part. What happens when mechanism fails or
         | when the parties relying on the mechanism have disagreements
         | about the implications. When there is disagreement about which
         | blockchain is authoritative. (Sometimes blockchain people call
         | this "governance" and wish to solve it also with mechanism.)
         | 
         | Anyway, there are good reasons for human organizations to act
         | in a policy/governance capacity. One may think of any
         | particular organization as flawed, which is no doubt true. But
         | in any context where people depend on the mechanism working
         | "correctly" people are the only participants who can provide
         | that assurance.
        
         | arcticbull wrote:
         | Of course it's not lol, like anything Blockchain it adds no
         | value and makes everything it touches worse. If Apple loses
         | their domain NFT should they what, just re-brand the business?
         | 
         | There's a reason we have a chain of trust and authority leading
         | all the way up to the supreme court and not just "yolo, SFYL."
         | 
         | [edit] Like all the distributed identity plays, "not your keys,
         | not your life" is such an asinine model to try and foist on
         | people.
        
           | barnabee wrote:
           | There are plenty of ways to avoid 1:1 mapping between keys
           | and access to/control of things on decentralised networks and
           | blockchains, so really these are not arguments against
           | blockchain just against a specific way you can choose to
           | manage your keys.
           | 
           | Simple multisigs are a good start, as is key recovery via m
           | of n (Shamir's secret sharing). More sophisticated systems
           | have been built on top of this to allow, for instance, users
           | to use their (singular) keys and to also allow a process,
           | that remains decentralised, in which multiple [somewhat]
           | trusted parties participate to recover access if they lose
           | their keys or die.
           | 
           | These solutions are obviously more complex to build and
           | interact with than a simple public/private keypair, hence why
           | it has taken longer to develop them, audit then, and get to a
           | point where they have a decent and intuitive UX (check out
           | Argent, Gnosis Safe, among many). But if a big part of your
           | argument against blockchain technology in 2021 is about lost
           | keys, I'd highly recommend digging deeper into the state of
           | the art before getting too stuck to a conclusion.
           | 
           | There was a time "I wouldn't use my credit card on a website
           | because it's too insecure" made sense too, but HTTPS became
           | the standard and we moved on. So it goes.
        
             | arcticbull wrote:
             | I'm well aware of the state of the art lol. But that's not
             | a _better_ system in any way. It 's slower, less efficient
             | and provides zero incremental value. And a ton of
             | complexity and risk.
             | 
             | Is it possible to solve the problem? Maybe? Maybe not? I
             | don't know. But so what if we do? In what concrete way is
             | this better? It feels like at best we'll be right where we
             | started.
             | 
             | It's a solution searching for a problem. A solution to a
             | question _nobody_ is asking.
             | 
             | [edit] personally I couldn't care less what database you
             | choose to use to store DNS records - but it should probably
             | be better than what we have now right?
        
           | mettamage wrote:
           | Well, I agree that we put our trust in technology an awful
           | lot when we do this. But don't we put this trust into
           | technology already?
           | 
           | One obstacle you described seems to be very much alive in the
           | blockchain world today which is: what if you lose your key?
           | Who can you turn to? Solving this (somehow) might help us to
           | a more decentralized internet.
        
             | arcticbull wrote:
             | > But don't we put this trust into technology already?
             | 
             | No, that's why we have courts as the ultimate arbiters.
             | 
             | > One obstacle you described seems to be very much alive in
             | the blockchain world today which is: what if you lose your
             | key? Who can you turn to? Solving this (somehow) might help
             | us to a more decentralized internet.
             | 
             | Anything short of "not your keys not your life" is a
             | centralization risk and quickly, at the limit, approaches
             | exactly what we have right now but less efficient.
        
               | dumbfoundded wrote:
               | The courts present a large problem though. Most digital
               | crimes happen across borders. Courts are pretty much
               | useless for ransomware, identity theft, and everything
               | else online when the criminals are in an inconvenient
               | jurisdiction.
               | 
               | Blockchain if anything shows the failure of our judicial
               | system. Most of the cybercrimes are enabled by
               | cryptocurrency and our justice system is hopeless to stop
               | these payments.
        
               | arcticbull wrote:
               | Nah, they can just ban exchanging fiat for crypto and the
               | problem goes away. It's a lack of political will, not
               | means.
        
               | cyberge99 wrote:
               | Who is "they"? What jurisdiction?
        
               | arcticbull wrote:
               | The country in which businesses are being targeted.
               | Crypto is a payment implement for crime. If the US
               | outlaws buying crypto, companies in the US can't pay
               | their ransomware bills and so will no longer be targeted.
        
               | dumbfoundded wrote:
               | I don't think you can put this genie back in the bottle.
               | The US is a corporation cooperative and the banks are
               | already in crypto and only raising their holdings.
               | 
               | Even if the US bans it, it just moves the market more
               | into the dark. Ransomware will still happen and still
               | require crypto payment. The only difference is the hoops
               | companies will do to acquire this crypto in a semi-legal
               | way (probably by using multinational entities to route
               | payments).
        
               | knownjorbist wrote:
               | That would be a gift to every other country that doesn't
               | follow suit.
        
           | arghnoname wrote:
           | I've done published research in cryptocurrencies in its
           | earlier days when I was in academia and I was very open-
           | minded about it, but ultimately I came to the same
           | conclusion: it's difficult to think of much that it does
           | better than more straight-forward solutions and easy to think
           | of downsides.
           | 
           | As I've gotten older and had to interact with various
           | bureaucracies and paperwork, I've only become more convinced
           | that lauded cryptocurrency features, such as (purported)
           | immutability and decentralization, are a bug, not a feature.
           | In my relatively short time on this mortal coil I've probably
           | had to contravene some codified system four or five times by
           | getting the right person in the loop so some rule,
           | regulation, or contractual obligation can be lifted. No
           | matter how hard we try, we can't anticipate everything.
           | People will die, keys (and other vital paperwork) will be
           | lost or destroyed, contracts will have mistakes, fraud will
           | be perpetuated, money will be mistakenly transferred to the
           | wrong parties, etc. All of these have happened to me and all
           | were resolved by a sometimes annoying but ultimately
           | effective system set up to handle such cases with some
           | backstop authority empowered to fix things.
           | 
           | All of us will eventually get into some hell where we need a
           | human to override the computer and just make the sensible
           | thing happen. How often is it that we're on a support line
           | just trying to get an exception to some stupid corner case
           | into which we've gotten ourselves. It's always a relief when
           | you can finally plead your case to the higher authority,
           | whatever that may be, and get some damn relief. Why aren't
           | more people concerned about a world where this isn't
           | possible? It's an honest question. It totally baffles me.
        
             | arcticbull wrote:
             | The iron law of blockchain is that if you think blockchain
             | is a solution to a given problem, you don't know enough
             | about the problem.
        
             | knownjorbist wrote:
             | My takeaway from Web3 so far has been a mixed bag. On the
             | one hand, having a wallet means you already have a
             | pseudonymous account with payments for every dApp that has
             | ever and will ever exist, and conversely the developers of
             | said app reap the benefits of that fact for basically free.
             | But this dynamic opens a whole can of worms in terms of
             | risk.
        
           | scyclow wrote:
           | This is a pretty bad take. If you want a 100% trust less
           | system, then sure. Go for it. But you can incorporate
           | whatever logic you want into your smart contract. This can
           | include giving a specific party the ability to revoke
           | ownership.
        
       | schlauerfox wrote:
       | This already effectively exists. and has since early bitcoin
       | days. https://www.namecoin.org/
        
       | tptacek wrote:
       | I am mystified by Handshake. It's not just a "protocol", as I
       | understand it, but also a coin. In other words, this project has
       | essentially claimed the Internet root as its own, and then
       | securitized it, selling in effect shares. But they don't own the
       | Internet root; it isn't theirs to securitize. I always ask: if
       | they can do this with DNS, can I do it with ARP?
        
         | sneak wrote:
         | That's the thing about claiming the root: anyone can try. There
         | is no title to the root, of course, as you well know.
         | 
         | You can certainly try to do it with anything you like, Sealand
         | included. The real work is getting others to agree or care.
         | Handshake has some preliminary support, and more, it seems,
         | than any other project in recent memory.
         | 
         | Alternic once tried, as did Namecoin. IIRC there was also an
         | alternative PKI root that some hackers tried to get going, but
         | no browser ever incorporated into the trust store.
        
           | tptacek wrote:
           | Alternic and Namecoin foundered on the same issue. To me,
           | this Handshake stuff seems like the Springfield Monorail. It
           | makes sense as long as you don't think about it, but as soon
           | as you do, you wonder why on Earth anyone would agree to new
           | root that gives value to a bunch of pre-mined coins.
           | 
           | Anyone can try! I'm not saying Handshake is, like, illegal.
           | But it still seems like... a scam? I'm not sure what the word
           | is.
        
             | ajvs wrote:
             | They've reserved the top 100k Alexa domains on HNS for the
             | original DNS owners. They're actively thwarting ICANN's
             | overreach and centralisation of control by redecentralising
             | the internet again. But sure, everytime HN sees a
             | legitimate use case for a blockchain it's a "scam".
        
               | tptacek wrote:
               | Is it a coin-like? Can you speculate on the coin-like?
               | Did they pre-mine the coin-like and gift it to themselves
               | and people they wanted favor with? If so, do I care that
               | they've "reserved the top 100k Alex domains on HNS for
               | the original DNS owners"? How nice of them.
        
               | coldpie wrote:
               | > sees a legitimate use case for a blockchain
               | 
               | I'm still waiting....
        
             | forty wrote:
             | The word is "ponzi scheme" ;)
        
           | Y_Y wrote:
           | Well if the thing they want is trust then lets "securitize"
           | that. We can bundle up all the world's trust sell little
           | trustcoins. Inevitably then whoever had the most coins would
           | be the most trustworthy, and hence the source of truth for
           | things like domain resolution etc.
        
         | mikeodds wrote:
         | You can request it, but you may not get the response you want
        
           | arthurcolle wrote:
           | you know those black helicopters the tinfoil crowd talks
           | about? They show only if you try to securitize ARPA products
           | ;)
        
       | beckman466 wrote:
       | what we need is a fully distributed (and thus democratic)
       | content-addressable name server resolution system.
       | 
       | that way users can decide for themselves who is @bob or me@me.com
       | (as their hashes differ).
       | 
       | the current industry around vanity domains and social media
       | handles is toxic. people are being killed for them [1]
       | 
       | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27900825
       | 
       | an example of a working example is the p2p Secure Scuttlebutt
       | (SSB) social network: it can work completely without name servers
       | (you can even sync over bluetooth)
        
         | evv wrote:
         | How does content-addressing help implement a better name
         | server? If the system is fully distributed you're gonna have a
         | lot more than one person deciding that they are @bob
        
           | beckman466 wrote:
           | so you'd all have to be playing by the same id-generation
           | algorithm/rules/'game', which will mean that no two id's can
           | be generated (at the same time). if you don't use the same
           | id-generation algorithm as your friends (yet you claim you
           | did) people would be able to see that by validating your
           | chain [1].
           | 
           | in other words: my main critique is that this name server
           | system is not as distributed as it could be, for example if
           | it was built using the holochain framework.
           | 
           | in a holochain system if two communities get disconnected due
           | to a natural disaster, they would still be able to continue
           | in two (temporarily) partitioned communities. with blockchain
           | this wouldn't be possible.
           | 
           | [1] https://developer.holochain.org/concepts/7_validation/
        
         | duskwuff wrote:
         | You meet Bob at a bar. You hit it off with him, and you
         | mutually decide to stay in touch.
         | 
         | How do you do that when neither of you has a name you can refer
         | to the other as yet?
        
       | wyager wrote:
       | How is this different from namecoin?
       | 
       | Namecoin was one of the first Bitcoin spinoffs, and it's arguably
       | the only other coherent known use case for "the blockchain"
       | besides money.
        
         | ajvs wrote:
         | It's decentralising the root zone, not just a single TLD.
        
           | rnhmjoj wrote:
           | Nothing stops you from creating others TLD besides .bit. We
           | just have to formally agree to use, say `/something/`, for
           | storing name records for .something.
        
           | wyager wrote:
           | That is not a meaningful technical difference.
        
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