[HN Gopher] Dear Mom, I'm Dropping Out
___________________________________________________________________
Dear Mom, I'm Dropping Out
Author : sberens
Score : 40 points
Date : 2021-09-17 17:13 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (simonberens.me)
(TXT) w3m dump (simonberens.me)
| jenny91 wrote:
| I want to chime in with a bit less negativity. Universities can
| really be a bit behind on CS compared to industry, and it's
| really hard to teach a lot of the practical stuff. You can
| absolutely get a lot more out of industry experience than school
| in that field, and the author seems well posed to do that with
| their intrinsic motivation to do this stuff.
|
| All the information is online these days. Universities are good
| at teaching things for two things: they guide you through the
| field in the right order and teach you what's important, and
| there's someone pushing you to do your work with deadlines and
| such. (Of course the value of universities is not just in the
| teaching/learning bit.) If you have the motivation for 2, and you
| have a good guide/job to do 1, then a unviersity might not offer
| you as much value.
| sberens wrote:
| Appreciate the positivity! I'm definitely grateful for the
| first two years at university; I wouldn't be where I am now
| without them! Like you say though, now I feel like I have (1)
| and (2) covered, so I'm not getting the same amount of value
| anymore :/
| quonn wrote:
| Universities teach the stuff that has stood the test of time.
| It has been relevant in the 90s and is relevant now. Everything
| else changes.
|
| The whole debate is only in issue in the US where it's always
| tied to debt. Come to Europe and enjoy university for free!
| Aqueous wrote:
| Have to say this because I've seen this attitude become
| pathological: You don't have to be "killing it" all the time.
| There's no rush. Time isn't running out.
|
| Finish school. Slow down. Think about what you want to do.
| ibraheemdev wrote:
| Is this a repost? I seem to remember seeing this a few days ago.
| sberens wrote:
| My submission was put in the pool! You can read more about it
| here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308
| Communitivity wrote:
| Ok, so some straight talk.
|
| Follow your dreams, but after you get the degree. A degree now
| days primarily is a signifier of two things: you have the the
| patience and discipline to stick through it and do well, and you
| are able to conform. The biggest benefits conferred by a degree
| are the networking you will do while at a good college, and being
| able to pass hiring gatekeeper checklists. This is doubly so if
| you plan on doing any kind of research.
|
| There are still places that will block you if you do not have a
| degree. The person that does it is an initial screener that is
| just looking at a checklist and nothing more. This probably
| (possibly?) does not apply if you have software engineer at a
| FAANG company on your resume.
|
| Who am I to comment? I basically did this, but went the corporate
| route. I dropped out to work in the corporate world, rather than
| startups. For family reasons I am unable to move to SV or NYC.
| After a career spanning 25 years I am making roughly $180k
| salary, not counting benefits, in Maryland.
|
| I have worked my rear off to get there, and I am in the process
| of going back to get my bachelors...because there are positions
| where the division head has to sign a waiver for me to be hired
| to the project in that position, because I do not have a degree.
|
| There is a caveat..I am in a somewhat degree-obsessed are,
| defense consulting. Still, I urge the OP to reconsider.
| motohagiography wrote:
| Kid's being dumb, especially if he was at McGill and is Canadian.
| e.g. Have fun getting a US work visa to work with all those cool
| people without finishing your undergrad. The friction from the
| same degree/visa issue cuts you out of taking jobs in Europe. Any
| company bigger than a startup that has an actual HR department
| won't give you P&L responsibility because if something goes wrong
| they are exposed to the accusation you weren't objectively
| qualified, and even though it's bullshit, it will keep him out of
| most management roles, and reduce his bargaining position on
| every job he does. Even if he fails and uses his tech skills to
| take a government job, he's going to spend his life working for
| (and likely antagonizing) the long tail of people who only barely
| graduated, and that was their high water mark. This isn't 1995
| where you can "learn computers" and become a valuable asset. Most
| of the skills he has, he is - or will - be competing against
| offshore shops, and even against them, he will be competing
| globally against people who have mobility between countries
| (facilitated by degrees) to enter and leave his market as they
| please, with a lot more talent and leverage. When he wants to go
| do a quick masters in something he finds interesting, he's also
| shut out, even if he could probably teach anything he becomes
| interested in.
|
| Maybe he does a series of startups and one hits. Maybe he's
| lucky, or brilliant, but the opportunity cost of 4 years in your
| early 20s is insignificant compared to the same time in your 30s
| and later. The feeling of this kid's parents isn't sadness or
| disappointment in foregone dreams, it's awe at how stupid he is
| being while still managing to dress and feed himself unassisted.
|
| Dear Kid - you're making a staggeringly poor quality decision, go
| back to school.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| > Even if he fails and uses his tech skills to take a
| government job
|
| Governments are some of the most picky about credentials.
| dang wrote:
| You broke the site guideline against name-calling quite badly
| with this. Please review the rules and stick to them:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| motohagiography wrote:
| I apologize, and sincerely. Unwelcome avuncularity line
| crossed. Will be more conscientious. Thank you for the yellow
| card.
| diskzero wrote:
| This is really interesting observation. Much like the author, I
| also dropped out partway through a degree to do startups. Boy
| was I surprised when I (US citizen) was stopped by Canadian
| immigration and asked to show my degree when I was arriving in
| Vancouver, BC for a meeting. This was in 1998. I later finished
| my degree thanks to Apple's then generous at the time support.
| I feel that I valued the education more as an older adult, but
| I also wish I had just completed my degree earlier, as it was a
| lot of work completing a degree and working full-time.
| sberens wrote:
| I'm actually a US citizen!
|
| Like I said in the essay, I have a full time offer from
| Facebook in Menlo Park, so I don't think your point about large
| companies holds.
|
| In the case that I want to do a masters, I think I can reapply
| for admission to McGill and finish off my degree.
|
| "awe at how stupid he is being while still managing to dress
| and feed himself unassisted" I'm stealing this insult lol
| motohagiography wrote:
| Thanks and congrats on the citizenship lottery:)
|
| However, be suspicious of anyone who hires you. It's very
| difficult to tell if we are smart or just easily manipulated
| by people who tell us we are. (hint: if you aren't already
| rich, seriously evaluate the likelihood of the latter) The
| time it takes to go back and finish your degree after you are
| 30 can work out to a few hundred thousand dollars in deferred
| wages/opportunity cost, meaning you aren't going to do it
| because it's not worth it, and you're going to be under that
| ceiling for good unless you find a way to really build
| wealth.
|
| There is zero cost to you spending another couple years in
| school right now, especially if you are FB level talent. It's
| all there waiting for you.
|
| Drop out to run a profitable company, never drop out for just
| a job, especially a fancy one. Prestige is what they offer
| you when it's not worth it.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| I mean, so, just looking at one of the courses this person has
| singled out ....
|
| https://writeofpassage.school/#pricing
|
| I'm not sure what to think about dropping out of college to spend
| $4-$7k on a course about writing? That is definitely getting up
| to the level, at least, of what some college courses would cost.
|
| As far as dropping out just generally goes ... what's the rush?
| Especially if you're close to being done in any case? People
| shouldn't write off the utility of the credential itself,
| regardless of their own personal feelings on the subject.
| smoldesu wrote:
| You don't understand! Their website uses fancy German fonts and
| neon color gradients, clearly they know what they're doing. And
| check _that_ out, I can pay my $7,000 tuition via Apple Pay! Be
| right back, I 'm going to go cancel the rest of my semester.
| dang wrote:
| " _Don 't be snarky._"
|
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us
| something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| sberens wrote:
| Unironically, the whole system to pay tuition has awful UX.
|
| The main benefits of the course that I see are:
|
| - focus on writing _online_ , they make you make a personal
| website, they give you advice for twitter, medium, etc
|
| - community--people here are much cooler than average college
| students, they are successful, interesting, connected, and
| experienced in writing online and are more than willing to
| share their advice
|
| - there are no grades, which allows me to optimize my time
| how I want
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Idk. I am skeptical but I wish you luck! All I would say is
| (speaking from direct experience here), just be sure in
| your own mind that you are not just taking the external
| validation you would receive through college and proxying
| it with something else like "another course". There are
| lots of paid courses out there -- some are good and some
| are bad, but none of them can approximate the experience of
| working on a problem yourself first.
|
| With respect to writing specifically, there is no magic
| bullet. Writing takes practice and learning some tricks to
| optimize your own workflow. You could, after all, practice
| that in your spare time and stay in school :) Don't quit a
| program just to do things you could have done while staying
| in.
| igalakhov wrote:
| Very well written!
| MattGaiser wrote:
| The important part of a degree as a Canadian is TN. Makes a heck
| of a lot easier to get into the USA.
| paxys wrote:
| Buried towards the bottom of the essay is the fact that the
| author has accepted a full time offer from Facebook. So yeah, the
| last year of college (and a degree stamp) is meaningless as long
| as he plans to stay in the tech world.
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| Sometimes these offers are contingent on getting the degree, as
| a way to get an intern or low level employee then get them to
| senior after they graduate.
|
| This person will get a rude awakening when they need to go the
| next step and realize "almost a degree" isn't really a degree.
| diskzero wrote:
| I noticed that and was slightly surprised. Does anyone know if
| there is a special visa carve-out for non-degreed Canadians?
| [deleted]
| aaroninsf wrote:
| "I realize that I'm in the final stretch of college now, but I
| just can't bear to waste another second bogged down by things my
| brain screams are irrelevant when I think (dare I say know) I can
| replicate everything college can give and hopefully more."
|
| I had to double check that this was no satire, as this is
| remarkably ignorant. Ironically it demonstrates that no, Simon
| does not "know", what a classical general education is and what
| it is supposed to provide, specifically when delivered in an
| environment that considers academic knowledge and research as
| valuable as ends, not means.
|
| Dear Simon, a four year education at a credible institution is
| neither about resume-packing skills nor partying to build a
| network...
|
| I can't decide if such misplaced self confidence is more
| demonstrative of generic individual hubris based on no actual
| world experience,
|
| or an indictment of the conversion over the last decades of four-
| year college education into a de facto half-million-dollar
| glorified boot camp,
|
| but either way, what a shame.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> Simon does not "know", what a classical general education
| is and what it is supposed to provide_
|
| This still raises the question: is the education Simon is
| getting at McGill actually providing this? I strongly suspect
| the answer is "no", since almost no college now actually
| provides what a "classical general education" is supposed to
| provide. Particularly if one is getting a CS degree. That's a
| specific credential for a specific career path, and the
| education that comes with it is focused on that.
|
| _> an environment that considers academic knowledge and
| research as valuable as ends, not means._
|
| This again raises the question: is any college now actually
| such an environment? Certainly the governments that pay for the
| research don't view it as an end, they view it as a means.
| After decades of that system, that attitude has percolated down
| to the professors and students.
| glangdale wrote:
| A common thread in these endless discussions is what a shallow
| and reductive view the pro-dropout people have of university.
| This guy thinks the biggest dig against McGill is that they teach
| web development (!) with an old stack, and he "knows" that he can
| "replicate everything that college can give and hopefully more".
|
| I hope Facebook can pay this kid in Dunning-Krugerrands.
|
| What a lot of early dropouts don't seem to realize is that the
| normal university experience in is very tail-loaded towards the
| tough, interesting courses. You can blitz through a couple years
| of basics and fume about how slow stuff is, or that the Intro
| Programming is in the "Wrong Language (TM)", but most of what I
| remember being good were 300- and 400-level courses. As you
| specialize, you also pick up a _lot_ of these courses, relatively
| speaking.
|
| There's also a lot to be said for, I dunno, all the _other_
| courses that you could be doing at a university for intellectual
| breadth. It 's not a vocational school.
|
| Oh well, he has a starter job at a tech company, which will
| probably be for life. That's how that works, right?
| keithwhor wrote:
| There are a lot of comments here that echo my sentiment.
|
| Simon, I am a Canadian founder. I got my first job offer in the
| US (San Francisco) at 25 years old. I took it right away. It was
| not FAANG, though I was interviewed there many times: not once
| was I given an offer. My degree was in Biochemistry, not CS. I
| probably would have been over the moon to get an offer from FB.
| So I can understand how you feel.
|
| However; I think you should consider finishing your degree. The
| job offer from Facebook will always be around -- or some
| equivalent. If you can get that at 20/21 you can get it at 21/22.
| The only time where I'd recommend somebody drop out is if they're
| committed to a project that is either clearly a business or has
| the potential to be one and they're pursuing entrepreneurship. I
| know a number of founders that have pursued this route and are
| quite successful. That said; college is really a once-in-a-
| lifetime experience. I wouldn't trade my time in college for
| anything, even though coming to Silicon Valley at 25 years old
| made me feel ancient. If you focus your last year on personal
| growth, hacking, friends, your network, building relationships -
| both at McGill and around Silicon Valley - you'll be even more
| set up to succeed post-graduation.
|
| Re: the FB offer. The ugly truth you're glossing over is that
| working at FAANG can -- for many -- ultimately be just as boring
| as coursework in college. If you want to get into startups and
| like the energy surrounding them, my recommendation is use your
| last year of college to (1) kick college's ass and get that
| degree so immigration is easier and (2) start a badass side
| project.
|
| That's my $0.02 but YMMV. Shoot me a DM on Twitter if you feel
| like chatting.
| ykevinator3 wrote:
| Simon stay in school, you'll be 30 one day, then 40, you're so
| close, just finish it, this is a really stupid decision.
| kindle-dev wrote:
| I think this is a bad idea. The author is clearly self motivated,
| so why does he want to start a full-time dev career so early?
| College is basically the best time in most people's lives to
| explore ideas that they have. College students are smart enough
| to build something significant, and have enough time to do so. I
| know so many people who have atrophied motivationally at Facebook
| and other big tech companies. The ones that haven't devolved into
| general apathy are more focused on climbing the corporate ladder
| or making more money, not anything truly fun and inspirational.
| Personally, I would love the opportunity to go back to college
| and have the time I need to explore my ideas.
| tombert wrote:
| NOTE: Not the author.
|
| I can't speak for Facebook, but I definitely feel like Apple
| made me stagnate intellectually. It didn't help that every time
| I wanted to work on something open source, I would get a
| nastygram from their legal team telling me that doing so would
| be grounds for termination.
|
| That said, at least for me, college required a type of stick-
| with-it-ness that I don't really feel I obtained until having
| to sludge through horrible office jobs for years. Having to
| work for megacorps that I hated forced me to finish work that I
| didn't want to do, and trudge through meetings I didn't have
| any desire to go to. After the hundredth "glorified data entry"
| assignment and thousandth "sprint planning that I'm only
| relevant for two minutes of", pushing my way through college
| felt somewhat easy in comparison.
|
| My path would be virtually impossible to recommend to people,
| but I honestly wouldn't change the order of how I did things
| given the option.
| fullshark wrote:
| Perhaps a taste of the working world will give them a greater
| understanding/appreciation of what college will offer if they
| decide to go back. A lot of people waste their college years
| cause they simply went cause it was what you do.
| CivBase wrote:
| > I think this is a bad idea. The author is clearly self
| motivated, so why does he want to start a full-time dev career
| so early? College is basically the best time in most people's
| lives to explore ideas that they have. College students are
| smart enough to build something significant, and have enough
| time to do so.
|
| What does this have to do with actually going to college? If
| the degree and courses don't matter, it sounds like OP would be
| better off just not working for a couple years in a sort of
| "pre career sabbatical". If you're going to dedicate your time
| to exploring ideas without an income, you might as well not
| waste your time on useless classes and accrue unnecessary debt.
| paxys wrote:
| For the last couple of years the "best time in most people's
| lives" has been paying $40K for the professor to shuffle
| through years-old powerpoint decks over Zoom. It's hard to find
| anyone graduating today who isn't fully disillusioned with the
| college system.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Is it really any better to sit in a grand lecture hall while
| the same tired professor slogs through a years old PowerPoint
| in person?
| paxys wrote:
| No, but at least people are now realizing the absurdity of
| the whole situation. Plus there were at least other
| benefits of college outside of lecture halls that are no
| longer available.
| ctvo wrote:
| Must be extraordinary to hop to New York City for a month, then
| fly to SFO as a young person, with not a (mentioned) care in the
| world about running out of money.
|
| With the above context, I think we can agree the risks for this
| person is low. If things go badly there's a landing spot.
| [deleted]
| fatnoah wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not sure what "risk" this person is taking. They can
| afford to move around the country while not working, plus they
| already have an offer from Facebook (which would likely be >
| $100k) for employment.
| Doches wrote:
| I'm setting a calendar alert to check for an "Our Incredible
| Journey" post from the OP in about 18 months...
| gtvwill wrote:
| This kids a middle management wet dream for easy abuse labor. Is
| willing to drop out of secure education for in-secure work. No
| long term fin capital from years worked to weather a rough
| employment period. No further education tickets to class him as a
| threat to taking managements jobs.
|
| Basically lining himself up to be a slave to the system.... He
| will make a good cog in the machine.
| purpleflame1257 wrote:
| I think the author has some unresolved anxiety issues that
| therapy might address better than dropping out would.
| FooBarBizBazz wrote:
| There's a flip side to the sunk cost fallacy:
|
| I might not fly around the world to pick up a $100 bill. But if
| I'm _standing right next to it_ , I pick it up.
|
| Let's say this kid is right that 4 years for a McGill degree
| isn't worth it (though it is). That's not the decision now. The
| forward-looking cost is _only one year_ , not four years.
|
| Pick up the $100 first.
|
| Also, a lot of the "college isn't worth it" arguments are for
| English degrees from West Podunk University. A CS degree from
| McGill is a completely different animal. One year? Worth it.
| eitu_s wrote:
| Great letter!
| par wrote:
| My most recent job (for a well established fintech company)
| actually verified my diploma with my university, and even asked
| me to correct a small, related detail i had mistakenly put on my
| resume! This kid will get background checked some day and start
| regretting this.
| glangdale wrote:
| The kid, unless he is very stupid, won't falsely claim to have
| graduated. They don't background check you on things that you
| don't claim.
|
| That said, I wonder if a university will confirm a partially
| completed degree. If not, it becomes something that rounds down
| to zero at anywhere that takes background checking seriously.
| quonn wrote:
| Hmm. I never got background checked. But I would also never put
| anything false. Honestly, you only have one life and university
| is a significant part of it. It has nothing to do with your job
| - nothing at all. A few decades down the line this will be
| clear.
| zinodaur wrote:
| I think its okay to drop out because you have your own ideas you
| are excited to work on. You can always go back to school and
| finish your degree if you need it for a visa.
|
| Don't drop out and work for FB though. I can tell you are fired
| up and excited to do things - but big corporations like FB will
| suck you dry and you will get nothing in return.
| dimmke wrote:
| I did a year of college and dropped out and began my career at
| 20. It's definitely possible to have a good career as a software
| engineer without it, but it definitely put me at a disadvantage
| in some situations. Only one time that I explicitly know of
| professionally but it also caused some problems with feeling
| insecure.
|
| If you've already gotten a job at FB just make sure the offer
| isn't contingent on completion of degree and you're probably
| fine. But be aware there might come a time where you'd wished you
| had finished.
| woleium wrote:
| I dropped out, went back to do a MBA part time (while working
| full time) about 10 years later because almost all director
| level positions I was looking at required it. It was hard work,
| but it worked out for me.
| chana_masala wrote:
| Yep. I graduated in the top ten of my high school, had a full
| scholarship to the state university, and already had about a
| year's worth of college credits from AP classes. I made it one
| semester. Too much instant freedom discovering drugs and
| parties. I should not have lived in the dorms. After a ten year
| gap year and years of professional experience I am now
| finishing up my degree.
| google234123 wrote:
| If you already have a engineering job at FB then they wont care
| if you finished your degree.
| tombert wrote:
| I have a similar story; I finished about 1.5 years at FSU, and
| due to a lack of motivation and depression (and the two feeding
| into each other), I decided to drop out when I was 21. I was
| extremely lucky to find work as a software engineer really
| quickly, and I managed to piece together a pretty awesome
| career making a pretty reasonable salary, but there's been
| several occasions where not having a degree made my life
| measurably worse.
|
| Since then, nine years after dropping out, I managed to
| complete my degree at WGU (which has its own share of valid
| criticisms). I don't know if the degree will "help" me more
| than my experience has, but at elast it's one less inferiority
| complex I have to deal with.
| dimmke wrote:
| Yeah. I could go back and finish (though I'd guess I would be
| starting from scratch now), but I'm now at a level where it
| doesn't matter.
|
| It would be so weird to be taking English classes with a
| bunch of 18 year olds just to add a line item to my resume
| nobody would read anyways.
|
| I've had times where it felt like I had to work harder, but I
| think a lot of that was self imposed and working hard is
| important in being a good software engineer anyways.
|
| You can go on the CSCareerQuestions subreddit and see many
| posts from people who did the bare minimum and have CS
| degrees with no idea how to get into the industry.
| chas wrote:
| While I did computer engineering and not computer science, I
| frequently come back to how useful of an intellectual foundation
| my college education was. It's basically a whirlwind tour of
| humanity's greatest hits in a given domain. While it's hard to
| tell which ones are going to be a big deal for you, there are
| certain collections of skills that have been super useful to
| combine in the past, so getting the whole cognitive standard
| library under your belt is a great use of time.
|
| While I thought I'd be focusing 100% on discrete math in my
| computing life, I was really happy to have been exposed to
| gradients and convolutions when neural networks came to
| prominence. I've also recently gotten interested in power
| electronics and have been really grateful for having previously
| been exposed to several varieties of transistors and having had
| half a semester of thermodynamics. Not to say that this
| background was really enough to be productive, but it was really
| nice to already know that these subjects exist and be familiar
| enough with their broad outlines to not have to completely
| bootstrap multiple fields at the same time.
|
| I'm a little salty about this though because, at the time, there
| were a ton of classes that I thought were boring and useless. I
| was wrong (at least about the uselessness) about for vast
| majority of them.
| ljm wrote:
| > [...] what would be the use of credentials issued by a
| university thousands of miles away that still taught PHP for web
| development? Would success in the far more complex task of
| building startups from the ground up not be credential enough?
| [...]
|
| I'm reminded of the recent post about the 22 year old who said
| they had failed: "Your mistake was thinking you could go into,
| say, a CS degree and have nothing to learn."[0]
|
| Of course, dropping out and starting a career at FB (or similar)
| is hardly a bad move. Who can say if it's the right thing to do
| or not? It's hard to discern a positive motive, though, when 95%
| of the reasoning is why college isn't great, and the bit about
| Facebook or throwing startup ideas at the wall to see what sticks
| barely passes as a footnote. Generally the best decisions don't
| come from focussing on what you don't want to do.
|
| [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28575317
| frazbin wrote:
| tl;dr - dropped out to work in red hot job market.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| This is what I think my father must have meant when he said, "I
| hope you never visit SF because if you do you'll never leave."
|
| If I were 21ish and had gotten this far, I absolutely would have
| made this choice, and it absolutely (for me) would have been the
| wrongest choice I could have made in that moment.
|
| The credential matters, and is worth 10 fold the value of that
| checked box on interview applications. To the people whose
| opinion Simon likely cares about, it proves you can stick with
| something that's unpleasant long enough to see it through to
| completion. Completing college (or not, as it's something I
| haven't done) sticks with you in conversations, in social
| interactions, and in the minds of others.
|
| If you ever want to do anything besides bootstrap your own
| startup all the way to product/market fit (not as easy as you
| possibly think right now), not finishing college _will_ create a
| little nugget of, if not doubt, then "prove it now" mentality in
| the heads of the people whose opinions you care about (both
| professionally e.g. investors and personally e.g. friends).
|
| If you're 20 or 21, your primary advantage is time. You _do_ have
| the time to finish up college, and _then_ do all of these things.
| You can do both, and pretending like you can 't is just giving in
| to that underdeveloped prefrontal cortex.
|
| Simon, I hope I'm wrong, but this is a mistake. You will regret
| this.
| paxys wrote:
| The credential matters - until you get your first job. A few
| years from now no employer (at least in tech) is going to
| reject him for not having a college degree when he has
| "Software Engineer at Facebook" on his resume.
|
| I was recently looking to switch jobs and actually removed the
| "education" section from my resume because it was taking too
| much space. Prospective employers care much more about work
| experience and other relevant projects than the college courses
| you took a decade ago.
| smoldesu wrote:
| This has also been my experience. Without a degree, finding
| people interested in your CV is pretty tough. Once I started
| citing some previous contract work though, things started to
| open up. It's obviously no replacement for a degree, but I
| guess most people just want another party to vouch for your
| credibility.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| True, until you attempt to move into an officer position at a
| company. It's a requirement for every organization I've
| spoken to or with colleagues about, both large companies and
| at startups.
|
| For very early stage startups, or if you're a cofounder,
| that's different. The further into in a company's lifetime,
| the more required it is, in my experience. In other words,
| it's _a_ barrier to _some_ things.
|
| Not to say that it's everyone's path, but I don't think
| everyone realizes that there _is_ a ceiling, and it does not
| get easier to obtain an undergraduate degree than it is if
| you 're 20 and have already completed three years worth of
| the program.
| paxys wrote:
| What is an "officer position"? I work at a large tech
| company (and have worked at several others, including
| Microsoft) and several of my directors, VPs and equivalent
| have had no formal degree. This is common when employees
| rise through the ranks or come in via acquisitions.
|
| Companies aren't going to ask for college transcripts when
| offering you a promotion. What matters is your experience
| and performance, that's it.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| A VP is an officer (a director is not), and I've worked
| with people who were asked for exactly those things when
| interviewing or being considered for such a promotion,
| both internally and interviewing for a role externally.
|
| I agree that what you say about experience and
| performance _should_ be the only thing that matters, but
| it 's naive to think that's simply "true", with no
| caveats, qualifications, or exceptions.
|
| I don't think it's as common as you think as you progress
| in your career beyond an individual contributor,
| generally in the tech industry, and specifically at
| Microsoft I'm 75% sure what you're saying is _not_ the
| case, with a very small handful of exceptions.
| zahllos wrote:
| Another aspect to consider: this is all a very US-centric
| view. In the UK, getting hired without a degree is not
| impossible (I did it) but very difficult, and some
| processes will simply filter you out. Large employers
| like IBM want a 2.2 equivalent degree from a good-ish
| university, doesn't matter what, and you can potentially
| go and work for them. Even FAANG, those that are here,
| e.g. Google, Amazon, Facebook, will primarily recruit
| people with degrees.
|
| Ditching the degree will also make it harder to move
| abroad if you want to in the future, since most
| immigration formalities evaluate education level. This is
| definitely true when it comes to emigrating _into_ the
| US, for example.
|
| Also, if you ever decide you need to go back to
| university (school) to learn about something in the
| future, I don't know about the US, but in Europe, a
| condition of entry to masters programmes is always
| holding a bachelors degree. So if you have to go back to
| school here, likely you'll be going back to bachelors
| level. I don't even know how valuable your existing
| credits would be - I can tell you that they tend to
| expire in the EU.
|
| So, there are some consequences to this choice. I'm not
| judging, each to their own, but if it were me, I'd say
| life isn't a race and unless you are already sat on a
| potential unicorn and it 'has to be now' Bill-Gates-
| style, a couple more years while you finish your degree
| is nothing.
| johntiger1 wrote:
| If you have time, then why not do it later in life?
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