[HN Gopher] Why the American Shoe Disappeared and Why It's So Ha...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Why the American Shoe Disappeared and Why It's So Hard to Bring It
       Back (2019)
        
       Author : nonbirithm
       Score  : 47 points
       Date   : 2021-09-18 20:34 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
        
       | intricatedetail wrote:
       | So people wanted employment rights etc, but didn't want to pay
       | for it and as a result most goods where it is too costly are made
       | were those rights don't apply. Monumental hypocrisy and a nuke in
       | the foot...
        
       | Aloha wrote:
       | Virtually all of my shoes are American made, but they're all
       | cowboy boots.
        
       | adrianvincent wrote:
       | Kanye West is going to bring Yeezy manufacturing back to the US.
       | Here's an interview from 2 years ago that is very insightful:
       | https://youtu.be/ihfG8qlhW04?t=760
        
       | seneca wrote:
       | The more I look at the effects of globalization, the more I think
       | free trade is akin to Reagonomics. Basically a huge scam for
       | everyone in a developed country, except the owners of
       | megacorporations. It destroys our ability to manufacture,
       | destroys our middle class, makes us dependent on a geopolitical
       | enemy, destroys any chance of local competition, and in return we
       | get cheap garbage goods.
       | 
       | In reality, what is happening is arbitrage of environmental and
       | labor protections. More and more I think developed nations need
       | to maintain an index that rates every country on these grounds,
       | and strictly enforced tariffs based on that index. I'm all for
       | other countries being able to specialize and out compete, but
       | slave-like working conditions and destroying the environment
       | shouldn't be competitive advantages on a global market.
        
         | knubie wrote:
         | There is an upside to integrating global economies which is far
         | less conflicts are taking place between counties now.
        
         | robotresearcher wrote:
         | > we get cheap garbage goods
         | 
         | ... along with many of the most high-quality, low-tolerance
         | manufactured parts and products ever made.
        
           | Jensson wrote:
           | Yeah, China today makes world class products. I started
           | buying Chinese smartphones, they work great, doesn't come
           | with much crapware and are super cheap per performance. I
           | don't see the point in paying extra for a western company to
           | take basically the same phone, put a brand on it and crap in
           | it.
        
       | black_13 wrote:
       | The hidden cost of maintaining the appearance of a middle class
       | is having one slave class in asia to make products and having a
       | second one to serve.
        
       | dwohnitmok wrote:
       | I'm a little bit more mystified why there aren't more niche shoes
       | being made in the U.S. where buyers are both willing to pay more
       | and where buyers are much more discerning about small
       | differences.
       | 
       | For example weightlifting shoes are absolutely dominated by made
       | in China shoes, and these are not at a low price point. The only
       | made in US weightlifting shoes I know of (Position) are
       | apparently quite poor quality and absolutely blown out of the
       | water by the others (on the other hand, outside of shoes, there
       | is a lot of made in the US weightlifting equipment which is very
       | high quality and apparently enjoys healthy sales as a result).
       | 
       | Maybe I'm missing certain niches? But my uninformed impression is
       | that this is also true for shoes in other sports such as running,
       | and other industries such as construction.
        
         | ativzzz wrote:
         | Probably because the people capable of building that necessary
         | expertise choose to go into more profitable and easy to access
         | ventures, like software as a service, and I don't mean software
         | developers.
        
       | les_diabolique wrote:
       | I went through a phase of buying Made in US and Canada footwear
       | such as Alden and Viberg, and to be honest, I don't think I could
       | ever buy a cheap pair of shoes again. I recognize I'm paying for
       | the inefficient process, but the construction and quality is
       | amazing. Even when it comes to buying sneakers, I prefer Made IN
       | US New Balance over a pair of Nikes.
        
         | larrywright wrote:
         | Same here. Rancourt is another great one - they make their
         | shoes in Maine and even offer custom shoes. I have a pair and
         | they are amazing. Not as expensive as you'd think, either.
        
       | aazaa wrote:
       | > "We'll post jobs," he said, "and it's very seldom that someone
       | under the age of 40 is coming in the door to apply." Among the
       | workers who remain, arthritis is a common struggle.
       | 
       | > "A lot of the people have said multiple times that they
       | definitely don't want their son or daughter doing this [making
       | shoes]," Heselton [of Maine Mountain Moccasin] said. "That's
       | tough to hear."
       | 
       | The sense of loss implied in the title makes sense. But
       | ultimately, were these good jobs to begin with?
       | 
       | The article doesn't even mention the environmental problems
       | associated with curing leather, or making other components. All
       | of those costs have been shipped overseas, along with the jobs.
       | 
       | The problem, of course, is that this practice of having China,
       | Inc. make everything used in this US is increasing reliance on an
       | increasingly problematic country.
        
         | ativzzz wrote:
         | > The problem, of course, is that this practice of having
         | China, Inc. make everything used in this US is increasing
         | reliance on an increasingly problematic country.
         | 
         | The article mentions factories moving to other Asian countries
         | as it's cheaper there.
        
       | js2 wrote:
       | See also, _The Last American Baseball Glove Factory_ :
       | 
       | https://www.npr.org/2019/03/24/706295355/the-last-american-b...
       | 
       | https://www.npr.org/2019/03/18/704503206/a-small-town-in-tex...
       | 
       | (It's Nocona, in Nocona, TX.)
        
       | cjohansson wrote:
       | 'Made by America' could be a marketing thing to try in the US.
       | Sweden does it with Volvo cars and most people still believe
       | Volvo cars are made in Sweden, the text is so similar you hardly
       | notice the difference
        
         | yuppie_scum wrote:
         | Many companies absolutely lean into Made in America.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | chrisseaton wrote:
         | > most people still believe Volvo cars are made in Sweden
         | 
         | But they are made in Sweden?
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volvo_Car_production_p...
        
       | lazyjones wrote:
       | Forcing merchants to clearly display country of origin and having
       | filters for it would quickly improve the situation. But there are
       | worse product categories in this regard - try children's toys...
        
       | tfehring wrote:
       | > _For a shoe-factory job paying $12 an hour, the actual cost of
       | shoemaking -- when adding benefits -- grows to $16 an hour,
       | compared with about $3 an hour in China, said Mike Jeppesen, head
       | of global operations at Wolverine Worldwide, which owns brands
       | like Merrell, Sperry and Keds. And that cost quadruples after
       | wholesale and retail markups, he said, ballooning into a $50
       | price difference between a pair made in the U.S. versus in
       | China._
       | 
       | This strikes me as a naive way to think about pricing (though
       | it's probably consistent with the way finance people think about
       | it). The only reason to charge that same ~4x markup on the
       | additional labor cost is to keep gross margins (as a percentage)
       | unchanged, but that would actually _increase_ profit (as a dollar
       | amount). If you just want to keep the same profit you 'd get from
       | offshoring, you can probably increase the price by much less -
       | $13 if demand were perfectly inelastic, somewhat more in
       | practice.
       | 
       | Also, that sentence shifts from cost per hour to cost per pair
       | without an explanation. Is 1 pair/worker/hour a realistic
       | estimate? That seems way lower than I'd expect. Surprisingly I
       | couldn't find a good answer to this in 30 seconds of searching.
       | 
       | After learning how many manufacturers essentially use slave labor
       | for their products, I've stopped buying clothes manufactured
       | outside the US and EU. I'm sure there are better ways to do this,
       | but that's the simplest reliable one - even e.g. Patagonia, which
       | seems to be trying its best to maintain an ethical supply chain
       | in developing countries, has had its share of issues. The price
       | difference hurts a little bit when I actually make a purchase,
       | but clothes are cheap enough to begin with that the difference
       | ends up being a pretty negligible piece of my overall spending,
       | probably something like $100/year on average.
        
         | csours wrote:
         | How many person hours do you think it takes to assemble an
         | automobile? By my estimate it's something like 20 person hours
         | for a reasonably complex product. I used to work in an
         | automotive assembly plant, but if you want real numbers you can
         | buy or find a Harbour Report.
         | 
         | Note this does NOT include indirect labor (skilled trades),
         | salaried employees, or the time taken to make the parts
         | installed at the assembly plant (engines, transmissions, bolts,
         | glass, etc)
        
         | coliveira wrote:
         | The issue with manufacturing has nothing to do with labor
         | prices as they try to say in the media. For example, Germany
         | has higher labor costs than the US, and it continues to produce
         | way more than other nations.
         | 
         | The true reason has to do with use of capital. The US has
         | perfected a system where capital is highly rewarded for pure
         | financial operations: stock market, futures speculation,
         | banking, real state lending.
         | 
         | Manufacturing requires a lot of capital that US players don't
         | want to tie to a lower reward structure. Germany and Chinese
         | capitalists are completely Ok with employing their capital for
         | manufacturing for political/structural reasons.
         | 
         | That's why American economists will make thousands of excuses
         | that really make no sense when it comes to the fact that they
         | want to invest as little as possible in manufacturing.
        
           | unyttigfjelltol wrote:
           | Great points. With decent sneakers selling for $90 to $150,
           | I'm baffled by business people who focus on wringing the last
           | $10/hr out of their manufacturing staffs.
        
           | tfehring wrote:
           | I'm not sure I follow. The cost of capital is _lower_ in the
           | US than in developing countries because of the generally
           | lower risk of investing in the US. For example, long-term AAA
           | corporate bond yields seem to be about 150 bps higher in
           | China than the US; estimating the cost of equity rigorously
           | is much harder but most estimates would suggest an even wider
           | gap.
        
         | lowercased wrote:
         | Most of the players in the chain in terms of percentages. "We
         | need to make x% profit" and "we have to sell at x% markup",
         | etc. If I buy something wholesale for $27, I want to retail it
         | for $54 (or more)... because... ? Rather than "I need to make
         | at least $10 per item to be profitable", it's percentages. At
         | least... that's the little I've seen.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | fsckboy wrote:
         | > a naive way to think about pricing (though it's probably
         | consistent with the way finance people think about it)
         | 
         | you don't understand finance, and why it has to work the way it
         | does, hence your naive thinking :)
         | 
         | when a manufacturer sells a product to a distributor, the mfr
         | ships the goods but they don't get paid right away, they get
         | paid later. Invoices are marked "net 10" or "net 30" or "net
         | 60", where the numbers refer to how many days the buyer gets to
         | pay the bill after receipt of the goods. (length depends on
         | your credit worthiness and potentially the goods in question,
         | dairy for example is perishable)
         | 
         | And the same goes for the distributor selling those same goods
         | to the retail merchants. (and, with credit cards, the same goes
         | for the consumer buying the item)
         | 
         | but let's go back to the mfer above: they've sold the goods,
         | but they haven't been paid... and they still need to
         | manufacture more goods to have on hand for the next order that
         | comes in, and they need to keep paying rent on the factory, and
         | they can't just lay off all the workers till the money comes in
         | and then rehire them, and they don't want to tell new customers
         | to wait for their orders.
         | 
         | So the manufacturer has to buy more raw materials and keep the
         | lines operating. So they go to the raw materials suppliers and
         | say "hey send us more stuff, so we can manufacture more, we
         | promise we'll pay you later" and the raw materials supplier
         | said "you said that with the last order and you haven't paid it
         | yet" and the manufacturer says "well we didn't get paid yet..."
         | 
         | so, as you can see, already there is debt ("financing") at
         | every stage of the supply chain. Now consider that the
         | manufacturer has introduced a product that's growing in
         | popularity, and growth is the goal if you want to make more
         | money and or spread your costs. In this instance the
         | manufacturer is asking his suppliers for a double or triple
         | order of supplies, because the retails and the distributor are
         | clamoring to double or triple their orders over the previous
         | orders... that they haven't paid for yet.
         | 
         | To smooth this process out, these different entities go to
         | their banks and say "hey, I can sell triple my previous orders
         | if I can just borrow some money short term, demand is so good
         | that I can pay you interest". And the bank says "yes, borrow
         | the money, it's the same interest rate, but borrowing triple at
         | the same rate is triple the interest you have to pay, right?"
         | 
         | or the bank might say "that's waaaayyy too much money to
         | borrow, look someplace else" and the manufacturer might instead
         | be forced to sell stock on a stock exchange, giving partial
         | ownership to investors in exchange for the cash they need for
         | expansion.
         | 
         | This is why banks exist; this is why the stock market exists;
         | and this is why it is not naive but incredibly sophisticated
         | how finance works.
         | 
         | Most people on HN love to hate on MBAs, but this is just what
         | they teach you in the first couple weeks of your first
         | accounting class, a tiny piece of the curriculum.
         | 
         | For anybody who really wants to grok thinking this way, I'd
         | highly recommend a book titled "The Goal" by Eliyahu Goldratt.
         | It's written as a novel, it's a breezy and fun read with some
         | deep ideas in it.
         | 
         | EDIT: addressing the complaint about something I susposedly
         | left out: When you want to start a company, you need some seed
         | money for a computer, a chair, a desk and a place to sit. If
         | you are going to manufacture, you need equipment; if you are
         | going to sell, you need space to store and display.
         | 
         | This entails money which you get from somebody else who will
         | want interest, with higher interest for higher risk; or which
         | you fund yourself from your savings but you were making money
         | on your savings which you need to forego (cost of capital) so
         | that's essentially the same thing. And when you are successful
         | and expand, at some point you run out and need to go outside to
         | finance anyway.
         | 
         | It has nothing to do with fixed percentages of profit on goods
         | or services. Instead look only at the flow of money and what
         | you are required to pay your financiers. You can tell your
         | financiers "I'm willing to make less profit, so charge me less
         | interest" but they will say back "you're making less profit?
         | you just got riskier, we need to increase your interest rate"
         | 
         | if less profit is charged at any stage in the chain, that stage
         | will have less money to reinvest in the next round of growth,
         | and will need to borrow more. Sellers are not choosing their
         | own profit margins, these numbers come from market bid-ask
         | norms.
        
           | tfehring wrote:
           | The reason I don't think of myself as a finance person isn't
           | that I don't understand finance. I've worked in the finance
           | industry for six years; I haven't worked on the supply chain
           | or logistics side, but I'm well aware of how invoicing and
           | accounts receivable work.
           | 
           | I understand that lowering the gross margin would increase
           | both the cost of financing and the amount to be financed
           | (both in absolute terms and as a proportion of revenue). That
           | does further increase the price you need to charge in order
           | to break even with offshore manufacturing, but again, the
           | idea that you need to get back to the same gross margin
           | irrespective of demand elasticity to break even with offshore
           | manufacturing is silly.
        
           | seneca wrote:
           | Nothing you said in this post addresses why margins need to
           | be a relative percentage instead of an absolute amount, which
           | what the post you're responding to brings up. You seem to be
           | talking about the general concept of credit. I understand
           | that there's an unstated "every dollar you spend costs you X
           | in financing", but that's not clear from your post.
           | 
           | I'd also strongly suggest Goldratt's lectures, titled "Beyond
           | the Goal" over the Goal itself, as the novel is pretty thin
           | on useful information comparatively.
        
       | MomoXenosaga wrote:
       | All industry has been outsourced to Asia.
       | 
       | The hilarious thing is that in the Victorian age English
       | factories made clothes for the Empire. That's how European
       | countries made their money: force their colonies to buy European
       | products. Trade at gunpoint.
        
         | robocat wrote:
         | The Indian Salt Hedge was a customs barrier built by the
         | British across India to prevent Indian people from smuggling
         | salt from coastal regions, in order to avoid the substantial
         | salt tax.
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_Customs_Line
        
       | ncphil wrote:
       | Over 30 years ago, when still in my mid-20s, periodic visits to a
       | local shoemaker shop (now long ago gone into retirement) for re-
       | soling were part of my young urban professional routine. When one
       | pair was finally too far gone for repair, they hand crafted me a
       | new pair (proudly showing me to the back of the shop to see them
       | make the finishing touches). Best shoes I ever owned. They cost
       | about $50 in 1980s dollars, so not cheap, but also not as
       | expensive as some department store brands. The US didn't just
       | lose manufacturing enterprise in the decades since then, we also
       | lost our small crafts shops.
        
         | yuppie_scum wrote:
         | You'll find them here or there. There's two or three shoe guys
         | in a nearby affluent suburb, I'm sure in the city center
         | there's several more. There's a pretty active Reddit sub,
         | GoodYearWelt about high quality resolable footwear.
        
           | systemvoltage wrote:
           | The parent is not saying whether you can find them or not.
           | The _relative_ abudance of such shops have drastically
           | reduced compared to 1980 's.
        
         | thesuitonym wrote:
         | People often talk about millennials not repairing anything, but
         | where could we go to do it? There is nowhere you can go to get
         | shoes repaired in a way that doesn't look terrible--and even if
         | you could, shoes aren't built to be repaired. No extra material
         | to sew anything back up after a tear, hollow soles that are
         | glued on with the cheapest possible glue, fake leather,
         | synthetic fibers that tear easily... What are we to do?
        
           | jolux wrote:
           | You can still buy quality footwear made of quality materials,
           | it just costs more. And I'm not sure athletic footwear has
           | ever been easily repairable, for one thing. Optimizing for
           | weight cancels out many of the affordances you mention.
        
       | hguant wrote:
       | I think the key take away from the article is this line:
       | 
       | >...higher-level innovation? Ironically, factory owners said
       | that's happening where the industry is -- overseas.
       | 
       | I don't think there's anything ironic about this. Innovation
       | happens close to the product, where you can get a true
       | understanding of what you're doing and what the process is. We
       | see this in projects gone awry all the time - until you're
       | sitting at your desk working on the project, you don't know what
       | the problem space actually is.
       | 
       | In addition to all the obvious problems with the dismantling of
       | America's manufacturing capacity, I think this is one of the
       | real, critical, and silent issues - for a country that keeps
       | touting innovation, not a lot of that happens here... apart from
       | industries where there still is a strong manufacturing core in
       | the country. The mercantilist rhetoric about buy American is
       | stupid, but so is the blind faith that global capitalism won't
       | destroy the ground it's built on.
        
         | jollybean wrote:
         | This is not electronics though. Nike et. al. are fundamentally
         | and intimately aware and involved with all technical aspects of
         | the design. The factories in Vietnam are not hiring long
         | distance runners and putting up tracks, hiring PhDs to measure
         | gate, develop new materials.
         | 
         | More obviously, Vietnamese factories cannot afford to hire
         | Michael Jordan et. al. and the world's top Ad Agencies who
         | actually drive sales.
         | 
         | Of all of the sectors that we should be concerned about, this
         | one is not it.
         | 
         | 1) Shoes are odd and there's no way we're going to make robots
         | anytime soon to do all these nimble things that require hands.
         | 
         | 2) Overseas makers don't have any technical leverage - and
         | definitely not brand power - so it's unlikely they'll usurp the
         | system.
         | 
         | 3) It's not a strategic sector.
         | 
         | I don't think there's much we can do here.
         | 
         | I'd be more interested in high end robots to make cars and
         | electronics cheaper.
         | 
         | Electronics is one area that we could endeavour to 'bring jobs
         | back'. Shoes, not so much.
        
       | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
       | That is too bad, but it ain't just shoes.
       | 
       | For what it's worth, these are the shoes I like to wear[0], but
       | they ain't cheap.
       | 
       | They are very comfortable.
       | 
       | [0] https://sasnola.com/collections/all-mens/products/jv-mesh-
       | bl...
        
         | zekrioca wrote:
         | A little ugly I have to say.. But if you are looking for
         | comfort, yes :)
        
           | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
           | Yeah. They are definitely not for style.
           | 
           | I get sick of shoes that _look_ comfortable, but aren 't (I'm
           | looking at you, Sketchers).
           | 
           | I'm on my feet, all day (standing desk). Comfortable shoes
           | are a must.
        
       | throwaway7542io wrote:
       | throwaway... but I just wanted to mention Thorogood shoes. I've
       | owned two pairs of their (quite reasonably priced) American
       | learher shoes. The first one lasted 6yrs and I'm still wearing
       | the second pair. I tried their foreign made "waterproof" and they
       | are alright, but kind of stink literally after a long day
        
       | lvl100 wrote:
       | Quoddy's of Maine. One of the best shoes made right here in
       | America.
        
       | icegreentea2 wrote:
       | > And that cost quadruples after wholesale and retail markups, he
       | said, ballooning into a $50 price difference between a pair made
       | in the U.S. versus in China.
       | 
       | This is the part that the child part of my brain always has
       | trouble dealing with. This always seems ridiculous in my brain. I
       | can intellectually understand why businesses want to scale their
       | margins with costs, but it just seems so self-destructive (from a
       | systemic standpoint) for something like shoes.
       | 
       | I don't know how this could really be different, but I hate it.
        
         | randallsquared wrote:
         | The cost of inventory is a gamble that you'll be able to sell
         | it. If that cost grows but the upside doesn't, you literally
         | cannot afford to take the risk of buying inventory that you
         | hope to sell.
        
           | torstenvl wrote:
           | JIT supply lines, sales tracking and inventory software
           | integration, and the sophisticated sales forecasting that
           | enables, change the risk calculation. But parasitic margins
           | seem just as bad now as ever. I'm not convinced by this
           | argument.
        
             | nradov wrote:
             | That doesn't actually work very well for shoes and apparel.
             | Demand is hard to forecast due to changing consumer tastes,
             | and lead times are too long to adjust orders up or down
             | quickly.
        
             | randallsquared wrote:
             | All those can help for some types of business. But as we've
             | seen from the supply-chain disruptions since the start of
             | the pandemic, there's also a cost of cutting things close.
             | You can choose whether to typically err on the side of too
             | much or too little, and you can do things that lower the
             | likely size and probability of the error, but you can't
             | just decide not to ever get it wrong, and getting it wrong
             | will cost money.
        
           | ralfd wrote:
           | Sure, but why does the cost quadruple? If a china shoe costs
           | 15 dollar less to make, why doesn't it stay 15 dollars at the
           | price the consumer sees?
        
             | tomnipotent wrote:
             | It costs money to sell shoes. You have duties, warehousing,
             | distribution, employee salary, marketing costs, rent,
             | insurance, expensive photo shoots. And if you're
             | manufacturing original designs, you also have a year-long
             | lead process, manufacturing obligations and scheduling,
             | sample management, maybe even material procurement.
             | 
             | The cost of the shoe ends up only being a third of overall
             | costs. I'm also not going to sell everything, but I still
             | need to keep buying inventory to keep the machine going.
             | 
             | If I don't sell the product at least 3x what I paid for it,
             | there's no way I can maintain sufficient capital to keep a
             | business running and hedge against risks.
        
             | briandear wrote:
             | Is shipping free?
        
             | clairity wrote:
             | you're thinking cost-plus in a value-based pricing world,
             | which means you're essentially viewing this backwards. it's
             | not so much why aren't the chinese shoes cheaper, but how
             | is the excess value created by the lower cost being
             | exploited in the supply chain?
             | 
             | the price of the shoes will always be set by the (retail)
             | market, and that market seems to be saying (roughly) that
             | the price of shoes (idealized for the sake of argument) is
             | $50, whether made in china or the US. the chinese shoes,
             | being $15 to make, allows more value to be captured and
             | distributed along the value chain, providing crucial
             | flexibility and resilience for operations, distribution,
             | and marketing. the american shoes costing $30 to make means
             | it has less value to capture and less supply chain
             | flexibility. the chinese shoe distributor has more margin
             | to work with to outcompete the domestic shoe through the 4
             | P's of marketing (price, product, place, promotion).
             | 
             | (this is the kind of stuff you learn in an mba program,
             | specifically, marketing & strategy classes)
        
           | smhost wrote:
           | Why is it so inefficient?
        
             | randallsquared wrote:
             | Maybe it only looks inefficient because we're comparing
             | against a fantasy economy where nothing bad happens and no
             | losses have to be recouped. :)
        
         | wizardforhire wrote:
         | This and also once an industry declines the infrastructure to
         | support that industry disappears so a cottage industry has to
         | increase their margins to compensate to even have a chance to
         | break even. Given the risk to reboot its natural to want to
         | recoup as much as possible with scale. Add to this increased
         | wages, inflation etc etc and the breakeven threshold is
         | sufficiently high to be prohibitive save for the overly
         | optimistic, ambitious and well funded. Business is hard
         | sometimes.
         | 
         | However business is not a zero sum game and everyone wins when
         | there are wins. Especially when those wins create new secondary
         | industries Adding to the overall infrastructure that make
         | possible and lower the barrier to entry for everyone else.
        
         | coliveira wrote:
         | The true reason is not the costs involved in manufacturing, but
         | the fact that American capitalists can get better returns just
         | using speculative instruments.
        
         | rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote:
         | There's a trade-off between specialization and vertical
         | integration (doing everything in house).
         | 
         | By specializing in just one thing (e.g. making shoes), and
         | letting someone else package them, transport them, market them,
         | help customers try them on a store, etc., you can get really
         | damn good at just making shoes. The shoes you make will almost
         | assuredly be cheaper and of higher quality than the guy that
         | tries to do all the other stuff himself (in addition to making
         | shoes).
         | 
         | In America, for physical goods, specialization almost always
         | wins out despite the profit taking at each step, because labor
         | is so much cheaper in other nations. Tesla and Trader Joe's
         | wine are two great counter examples of vertical integration
         | winning out big in industries that had become over-specialized
         | over time.
        
         | deycallmeajay wrote:
         | I actually would appreciate if someone could explain what this
         | is.
        
       | logifail wrote:
       | > "it's very hard to envision a scenario where we'd make the
       | types of products that we make, at the prices that we make them,
       | in $PlaceWhereWeSellThem"
       | 
       | Doesn't this sound like "our business model is working just fine,
       | _please_ don 't disrupt it"?
        
         | MattGaiser wrote:
         | If you can make shoes more cheaply, I am sure they are happy to
         | manufacture with you instead.
         | 
         | However, making shoes more cheaply almost assuredly means
         | finding a way to get rid of the human labour.
        
         | colpabar wrote:
         | another way to say that would be
         | 
         | >"it's very hard to envision a scenario where we'd make the
         | types of products that we make, at the effectively slave labor
         | prices we pay people to make them, in a place that would
         | require us to pay them more."
        
         | da_chicken wrote:
         | Sure, but it also sounds like, "Capital is global, labor is
         | local."
        
         | geon wrote:
         | No?
         | 
         | Isn't the problem the high manufacturing cost? How would you
         | "disrupt" that?
        
           | dd36 wrote:
           | Robots. Environmental trade law.
        
             | ch4s3 wrote:
             | No one had figured out how to automate the sewing yet, and
             | not for lack of trying.
        
         | deckard1 wrote:
         | The business was already disrupted. That's why they are in
         | Asia. How are you going to disrupt that? By lowering the costs
         | even further with... an Uber-meets-X app? Slavery-as-a-Service?
        
         | throwaway984393 wrote:
         | It's very hard to disrupt their business model. You can't make
         | shoes cheaper than they are.
         | 
         | You could try to attack a different market segment, like more
         | expensive shoes, but that isn't disruption.
         | 
         | You could try a marketing gimmick, like "buy these more
         | expensive shoes and we will send you replacements for life."
         | But it wouldn't be sustainable, and the competition could just
         | offer the same thing and there goes your disruption. You could
         | probably get a couple of years of press, just long enough to
         | sell the company and make the founders a mint (if anyone's dumb
         | enough to buy it).
        
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