[HN Gopher] How 'Trainable' Is VO2 Max Really? - A Case Study (2...
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How 'Trainable' Is VO2 Max Really? - A Case Study (2019)
Author : dsnr
Score : 86 points
Date : 2021-09-17 18:29 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (simplifaster.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (simplifaster.com)
| nradov wrote:
| This is a good article and aligns well with empirical results
| from polarized training plans. But focusing on VO2 Max as a
| single metric isn't necessarily a good approach. Race directors
| don't give out prizes for the highest VO2 Max and it's only a
| mediocre predictor of finishing times. A lot of athletes benefit
| more from training to hold a higher percentage of VO2 Max for a
| longer period.
| dragontamer wrote:
| VO2 max is good in that its easily tested. As such: its a
| microbenchmark (much like how Linpack FLOPs is touted as the
| supercomputer benchmark, even though dense matrix
| multiplications are probably in the minority of tasks)
|
| Since there's a consistent test available that
| "microbenchmarks" an athlete's measure of endurance across
| athletic fields (bicyclists, cross country skiers, runners,
| etc. etc.), we can now compare athletes of different styles
| against each other and learn from all of them.
| nradov wrote:
| VO2 Max isn't a measure of endurance. It's a measure of
| maximum aerobic output.
|
| Edit: Athletes with high endurance as measured by how much
| output they can sustain over longer periods will also tend to
| have high VO2 Max scores, but that's mostly a correlation
| thing and not a direct causal relationship.
|
| I'm not sure there's any point in comparing VO2 Max scores
| across sports. It's an interesting factoid but not really
| actionable.
| ummonk wrote:
| Aerobic output matters more for endurance sports (which are
| limited in part by how much energy your body can keep
| supplying) than for power sports (which involve anaerobic
| activity and ample recovery periods).
| elevaet wrote:
| It's not, but it does correlate with the highest performers
| in endurance sports.
| dragontamer wrote:
| And Linpack FLOPs aren't a measure of 64-bit integer
| performance. And yet, we use Linpack FLOPs to compare
| supercomputers against each other, even if they're going to
| run 64-bit math on them.
|
| No microbenchmark is perfect. But maybe some
| microbenchmarks are useful.
| dsiegel2275 wrote:
| From Wikipedia:
|
| "The measurement of VO2 max in the laboratory provides a
| quantitative value of endurance fitness for comparison of
| individual training effects and between people in endurance
| training. Maximal oxygen consumption reflects
| cardiorespiratory fitness and endurance capacity in
| exercise performance. Elite athletes, such as competitive
| distance runners, racing cyclists or Olympic cross-country
| skiers, can achieve VO2 max values exceeding 90
| mL/(kg*min), while some endurance animals, such as Alaskan
| huskies, have VO2 max values exceeding 200 mL/(kg*min)."
|
| So maybe it is a measurement of "endurance capacity"...
|
| [edited for clarity]
| nradov wrote:
| No it's not a direct measurement of endurance capacity.
| It is, as the units imply, a measurement of your maximum
| rate of oxygen metabolism over a very short period, as
| normalized by body mass.
|
| There is some _correlation_ with endurance capacity. But
| that relationship gets progressively weaker as you go out
| to longer efforts.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| Wikipedia's entry is overly simplistic. It is true that
| many people use VO2 in this way, but many of us feel it
| is silly. Some people are able to get more power to their
| legs at a given metabolic consumption, for instance. Two
| athletes may run the same time because one is more
| efficient with a lower VO2 Max, and the other has a
| higher VO2 Max but is less efficient. Interestingly no
| elite athlete has both things maxed out, perhaps because
| it is impossible, they are at odds with each other.
| dtf wrote:
| Although the article mentions "polarization", when I look at
| the intensity distribution graph, is that not more an example
| of "pyramidal" - ie with a substantial amount of work between
| easy and hardest (VO2) intensities (see the bars for aerobic,
| tempo, threshold), rather than just being divvied up between
| Easy/VO2 with no-mans land in the middle. (see for instance,
| the definitions in this paper: https://www.frontiersin.org/arti
| cles/10.3389/fphys.2015.0029...)
| matsemann wrote:
| There are hundreds of definitions floating around. I think
| most people when talking about polarization isn't talking
| about the original definition, but merely the concept of
| having more volume and not always as much intensity.
|
| It's a big shift, though. As someone mainly cycling I often
| get it a bit for "free", since it's natural to have rides
| being a couple of hours long and thus intensity is naturally
| lower. But when running, it can often feel like a run either
| needs to be long or fast.
| matsemann wrote:
| Yeah, many more metrics to look at as well. Like lactate
| threshold (often measured relative to pace in running, or
| wattage in cycling (FTP)). And while they correlate, even they
| cannot even predict performance.
|
| For instance I measured my ftp, did a training plan and
| measured again. No change, but still got better results on my
| rides. Real world cycling is "punchy" with accelerations and
| hills etc. So my steady state performance hadn't increased, but
| my ability to endure going over lactate threshold and come back
| had.
|
| And also the other way. When my friend started cycling, he was
| already an insane runner with good vo2max (70+). But his ftp on
| cycling was comparably low, since his muscles couldn't handle
| that lactate build up from this unknown moving pattern. Of
| course he quickly improved, but it's another point showing that
| vo2max doesn't necessarily translate to performance in an
| event. (One could argue him redoing the vo2max test on a bike
| would have yielded a different score, though)
| nradov wrote:
| Yes VO2 Max tests for the same athlete will usually yield
| scores that differ by a few points for cycling versus
| running. I know at least one pro cycling team tried to
| identify potential new riders from outside the sport by
| recruiting athletes from other sports who had exceptionally
| high VO2 Max scores. Race results were disappointing.
| rhizome wrote:
| I wanna say speed skating is the only dependably crossover
| sport so far? Not just from the Heidens 40 years ago, lots
| of other examples here:
| https://www.google.com/search?q=speed+skating+cycling
| useful wrote:
| I'd recommend reading Joe Friel's stuff for anyone that's
| interested in this and wants to improve. Executing a
| periodization schedule for the stress of an event is something
| that anyone can do.
|
| I love stuff like this: https://joefrielsblog.com/polarized-
| training-update/
| dilyevsky wrote:
| Nice write up and confirms what I've personally experienced by
| trying different methods (running/climbing) over the years
| troysk wrote:
| Reminded me of the Colorado experiment https://baye.com/colorado-
| experiment/
| gwern wrote:
| > In fact, when I model the average response to training across
| the entire group that I have VO2 and long-term training data for,
| I see an average shift from 54 to 67 ml/kg/min (a change of 24%)
| when a long-term, high-volume training plan is undertaken. > >
| Conversely, when a short-term, high-intensity training plan is
| undertaken, the model shows a maximal increase (in 4-6 weeks) to
| only 63 ml/kg/min (16%). > > So, while a 40% increase in VO2 max
| may not be considered "typical," after my experience testing and
| observing athletes over the past 10+ years, I would have to
| consider a ~25% increase in VO2 max to be very typical given the
| right training over a sufficient period of time (the two items
| missing from those initial studies that suggested high genetic
| limitations).
|
| Bait and switch. He starts out talking about averages over
| ordinary people suggesting 10-15% average improveability, and
| then presents a 25% estimate... from an extremely selected group
| of athletes after lots of attrition from those getting worse
| results (just what percent of the population even _has_ VO2max
| numbers from a "long-term high-volume training plan"?). I would
| suggest that his end result strongly reinforces the original
| claim, rather than debunking it.
| diskzero wrote:
| I raced as a Category 1 USCF racer and worked on increasing a lot
| of thresholds as I climbed up the ranks. I would get my VO2 max
| tested every year and saw some improvements based on training,
| but I hit a limit. Other teammates also hit limits, but their
| initial test values were just higher than mine and I wasn't going
| to train myself into those higher levels.
|
| Improving my lactate threshold, losing as much weight not related
| to cycling muscle mass and periodization kept me competitive.
| Training smart, sticking to a game plan, avoiding fast paced
| group rides, good sleep and nutrition was also vital.
|
| The reality is that you can build upon your genetic platform, but
| you are going to get to level where you simply can't compete
| against someone who is doing everything you are doing, but just
| have better genetics. Sadly, this is why a lot of elite athletes
| turn to doping, even in the amateur ranks. They are training just
| as hard as you in addition to the EPO, steroids, HGH and who
| knows what else.
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| Does chess really require high max V02?
| nradov wrote:
| It's pretty obvious when you look at amateur endurance races
| that a lot of those age group guys are heavily geared. There's
| no testing out of competition at all, and hardly any in
| competition either.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| How is it obvious when you look at them? I mean, it is
| obvious that people cheat, because people cheat everywhere,
| but what does looking at them have to do with anything?
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| > The reality is that you can build upon your genetic platform,
| but you are going to get to level where you simply can't
| compete against someone who is doing everything you are doing,
| but just have better genetics.
|
| This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally, even
| though there are some glaringly obvious examples, like height.
|
| That said, I think most people can generally train themselves
| to compete at high levels, just not not elite levels. For
| example, you see a good variety of people competing on decent
| college teams in all sorts of sports. It's just at the elite
| college level and above that you see people's shapes become
| more uniform.
| typon wrote:
| It's also overstated, culturally, especially in online
| circles. Most people will never be elite in anything in their
| lives, so these genetic limits don't impact most people.
| They're sometimes used as a crutch to justify not working
| harder.
| elric wrote:
| > This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally
|
| Is it? It seems pretty obvious. And unless you're aiming to
| be an elite in whatever field, it's pretty much irrelevant.
| Barring serious defects, most people can do reasonably well
| in most disciplines (physical & mental) if they apply
| themselves. Of course, if everyone were to apply themselves
| equally, the genetic lottery would still win out, but that's
| not something that seems to happen?
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| Sure but you could argue that the ability to "apply
| oneself" is fundamentally just another neurological
| character trait also rooted in one's physiological
| characteristics which stem from your environment (family,
| socioeconomic background, etc) and your genetics... neither
| of which you had any control over.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I wonder if VO2 max is equivalent to more O2 diffused to cells..
| what if capillaries are too narrow or too twisted, you get a lot
| of O2 circulating but very few reaching the cells.
| nradov wrote:
| VO2 Max tests directly measure how much O2 you metabolize into
| CO2. If you have some kind of vascular disease then yes, that
| could reduce the amount of O2 reaching your cells and thus
| impact VO2 Max.
|
| It's normal for capillaries to be narrow. Some only allow a
| single blood cell at a time.
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