[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Neurological Effects of Computer Programming?
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       Ask HN: Neurological Effects of Computer Programming?
        
       Does anyone know of any short or long term neurological effects
       (positive/negative) of computer programming/engineering?
        
       Author : amar-laksh
       Score  : 67 points
       Date   : 2021-09-16 11:21 UTC (1 days ago)
        
       | ryandvm wrote:
       | I'll tell you what, it'll aggravate any latent imposter syndrome
       | you may be dealing with...
        
       | xyzzy21 wrote:
       | Sure: you get more rational, logical and objective compared to
       | "normies". This is 100% a good thing and an improvement over the
       | average person. It's part of why more successful CEOs et al. have
       | engineering background than liberal arts.
       | 
       | There's also an effect on couples - my mother became radically
       | more rational thanks to living with my father, an ME.
       | 
       | The other aspect: you don't put up with bullshit as readily
       | especially of the propaganda/lying forms so common today.
        
         | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
         | Incredibly ironic comment
        
       | johntdaly wrote:
       | Google "Programming ruined my life" or a variation thereof. There
       | are 3 things to keep ahead of:
       | 
       | 1) Programming is a sedentary job, if you don't take care of
       | yourself (some sport, weight lifting, something keeping you
       | active) you will feel physical strains over time.
       | 
       | 2) Burnout is a possibility, I've seen programmers that had
       | burnout, not self diagnosed but actual burnout. It was not
       | pretty. Ever since I try to watch out for my mental healthy. It
       | is easy to be put under enough pressure to break or even put
       | yourself under that pressure (imposter syndrome ...)
       | 
       | 3) General negativity and naysaying. Part of the job is finding
       | problems, debugging and generally poking holes in ideas so you
       | don't waste a lot of time implementing stuff that is impossible
       | to begin with. Don't let this become a part of you, don't even
       | let this take over in your job. It will rob you of the joy of
       | programming.
       | 
       | That is what I gather from articles I've read over time and from
       | myself. I am not aware of any research, just anecdotal evidence.
        
         | api wrote:
         | A student once asked me an interesting question: "what are the
         | occupational hazards of this career?"
         | 
         | Most people naively assume there are not any.
         | 
         | I told them poor health due to a sedentary lifestyle,
         | depression, and social isolation.
        
           | swader999 wrote:
           | A lot disparage this career for "you sit in front of a
           | computer all day" but fail to realize that this is the way a
           | lot of other work has gone towards.
        
           | kace91 wrote:
           | To be fair, I'd say those are "things this job doesn't
           | provide" vs just harm.
           | 
           | Some people get their daily dose of excercise, social
           | interaction and dopamine hits from their work. In our field,
           | we don't, so we need to find complementary activities for
           | that.
        
         | AnimalMuppet wrote:
         | 4) Damage to your fingers, wrists, and eyes. (Yeah, I know, the
         | people with physical jobs that destroy their bodies are
         | breaking out the world's smallest violin...)
         | 
         | At a minimum, carpal tunnel can be considered neurological.
        
         | NetOpWibby wrote:
         | Number 3 is killer. I'm in a private Slack with a bunch of
         | white designers and boy are they negative. ANYTHING gets
         | released and they hear about it? Teardowns that'll make
         | iFixit's head spin!
         | 
         | I take a leave of absence when the force is strong.
        
           | junon wrote:
           | Curious, what does the designers being white have to do with
           | anything? Are designers of other ethnicities immune to this?
        
             | throwaway743 wrote:
             | Could have meant "whiney" and got auto corrected? Idk but
             | yeah if mentioning ethnicity was the intention, it's a
             | ridiculous statement
        
               | NetOpWibby wrote:
               | Yes, autocorrect but weird how that still fits. I'll keep
               | the typo for transparency.
        
               | junon wrote:
               | > but weird how that still fits
               | 
               | Not really though.
        
               | pickledish wrote:
               | I think they just meant that all the designers on the
               | team happen to be white, so even with the typo, the
               | statement is still technically correct.
        
               | NetOpWibby wrote:
               | Yup, this exactly.
        
             | NetOpWibby wrote:
             | That was a typo but anecdotally, the other Slack I'm in
             | with a more diverse group of folks is a lot less negative.
        
               | junon wrote:
               | Your skin color has no effect on your personality, sorry.
               | The conclusion doesn't make much sense.
        
               | codr7 wrote:
               | But a mix of people from different backgrounds will most
               | definitely affect the group culture.
        
               | NetOpWibby wrote:
               | This exactly
        
               | junon wrote:
               | group culture != negativity/positivity. This is a motte
               | and bailey[0] fallacy.
               | 
               | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-
               | bailey_fallacy
        
             | mistermann wrote:
             | Seems it was a typo, but I'd be surprised if creativity,
             | self-confidence and other relevant factors are a constant
             | across cultures.
        
         | hsuduebc2 wrote:
         | Third point actually sums up your whole post. Are there any
         | positives?
        
           | phkahler wrote:
           | >> Are there any positives?
           | 
           | Have you ever enjoyed solving a puzzle or solving a problem?
           | We do that daily, even if we didn't decide which puzzles to
           | solve.
           | 
           | Do you find satisfaction in fixing things or making them
           | better?
           | 
           | How about designing or building things from scratch? Do you
           | find that rewarding?
           | 
           | Flexible schedule? Remote work? Higher pay than XXX?
           | 
           | I think the point is that there are downsides people often
           | overlook, not that there aren't any upsides.
        
         | wibagusto wrote:
         | Being sedentary or burnt out could happen in any industry so
         | I'd argue those need to be categorized more specifically.
         | Perhaps:
         | 
         | Language fatigue, zealotry in discussions (e.g the more one
         | deals with logic, the more one thinks their way/language is the
         | best), pace of evolution (keeping up with new trends is
         | sometimes pointless effort because it's a rehash of yesteryear
         | --e.g markdown when asciidoc/html is good enough).
         | 
         | Sedentary can be expanded to hyper focus on solving a problem
         | leads to self neglect. Programming can be an isolated behavior.
         | I'd recommend social coding and attending hackathons and
         | meetups.
         | 
         | I'd like to add positive notes: programming has helped me
         | reason about the world effectively. For instance, data
         | organization, parallel work (applied to people as well as
         | machines), iteration methodology (agile mindset can be applied
         | to real projects like home renovations), problem solving
         | ability (how to isolate issues and reduce a problem into
         | something solvable).
        
         | junon wrote:
         | #3 is the worst. It's not even contained to my job - it's a
         | huge hindrance in life in general.
        
           | randomopining wrote:
           | Seriously. It's like you're constantly looking for logical
           | reasons why something will fail. Gotta figure out how to stop
           | it.
        
         | aspaviento wrote:
         | 4) You can't stop noticing how poorly optimized many of the
         | things in life are.
        
         | MrQuincle wrote:
         | About 3. One of the coolest attitudes I saw was from someone
         | (autistic, but that doesn't matter) who approached every
         | problem as something to love, to cherish, to appreciate. Now
         | I'm reading a book about the early days in Bell labs. I feel
         | through the pages how much fun they had with finding issues,
         | finding things to improve, finding out the future. I think
         | there's so much to gain if you can find a positive approach to
         | problems. Also in real life!
        
           | tailspin2019 wrote:
           | That book sounds interesting! Could you share a link?
        
         | kace91 wrote:
         | > 3) General negativity and naysaying.
         | 
         | I am guilty of this, and I've never thought about it as a
         | problem, just as how my mind is wired. That comment was a bit
         | of an epiphany for me so thanks!
        
           | KineticLensman wrote:
           | Something I discovered as a reviewer was the importance of
           | reigning in my own negativity tendency, i.e. to pick holes in
           | things. If I reviewed something that I didn't personally
           | like, but which would in fact still work, I learned to decide
           | whether or not it was worth mentioning it or not. That way I
           | wouldn't overload the reviewee with a mass of criticism, and
           | the things that would genuinely need changing weren't hidden
           | in a flood of picky little points.
        
           | micromacrofoot wrote:
           | One thing that works for me is trying to push this problem-
           | finding routine into general curiosity about the world around
           | me... I never expected to get into gardening but I started
           | learning more about the plants and weeds growing in my little
           | yard, and one thing lead to another. I've also started
           | keeping track of the birds.
        
         | newsbinator wrote:
         | Number 3 (general negativity and naysaying) is horrible and
         | pervasive. It takes a concerted daily effort not to fall too
         | far into it.
        
           | jackcosgrove wrote:
           | At a lot of workplaces (mostly old-line industrial
           | companies), programmers are the bottleneck because there
           | aren't enough of them. This can lead to feelings of being
           | used because seemingly everyone needs you to do something for
           | them. This can trigger a generally sour outlook. I don't
           | think there's a solution for the first problem, but you can
           | change your outlook and see the constant work as job and
           | career security. Also it's good to remember that the people
           | with lots of downtime or makework at their job aren't
           | necessarily shirking; they just don't have the tools to move
           | forward without you.
        
           | adoga wrote:
           | Any tips on how to improve?
           | 
           | I've noticed myself really shrinking into a negative attitude
           | lately -- not sure how to prevent myself from becoming the
           | stereotypical jaded senior engineer (I do certainly feel like
           | I have quite a bit management-wise to be jaded about though,
           | which is part of the problem).
        
             | sdeep27 wrote:
             | Explore environments where it's hard for you to be
             | jaded/cynical. Nature or being around kids (volunteering to
             | teach them how to code is one idea) immediately come to
             | mind.
        
               | ethbr0 wrote:
               | Also, excercise the ability to just not say anything.
               | 
               | By all means, don't bury your head in the sand. But some
               | things aren't productive to talk about. Functionally, you
               | get the same results whether or not you slight that other
               | team / manager / process in a conversation.
               | 
               | Everything is always broken. But we get to choose if we
               | only have conversations complaining about broken things.
        
             | specialist wrote:
             | > _Any tips on how to improve?_
             | 
             | How you talk changes how you think.
             | 
             | Ages ago, desperate to stop being angry, and completely out
             | of any other ideas, I decided "Fine, I'll just fake being
             | happy, positive."
             | 
             | Shockingly, after about 3 years, what started out as mostly
             | sarcastic, actually mostly worked. From my reading since, I
             | stumbled onto techniques known to academics, practitioners.
             | 
             | To get a sense of the mechanics, imagine having the habit
             | of swearing all the time, and wanting to stop. Habits can
             | be replaced, not unlearned. So I literally scripted
             | responses, practiced saying them, tried to use the new
             | script in place of my old script, and caught myself when I
             | goofed. Both in my head (internal dialog) and interacting
             | with others.
             | 
             | It got easier over time.
             | 
             | Backsliding is super easy. Even now, decades later. You
             | can't dwell on that. Just acknowledge it and get back to
             | the program. (Get back on the horse.)
             | 
             | It helps to have "positive" people in your life that you
             | don't want to disappoint. For instance, I'm mostly able to
             | avoid trolling here on HN because I really value u/dang's
             | approval and efforts and it'd kinda hurts me emotionally to
             | disappoint him. Find people IRL to serve in that role.
             | 
             | And avoid other people displaying the habits you're trying
             | to not do yourself.
             | 
             | Forgive yourself. Choose to become the best version of
             | yourself. Be kind to yourself.
             | 
             | Good luck.
        
               | JohnFen wrote:
               | This is so true. I once had someone explain the problem
               | very concisely: we tend to believe the things we hear
               | frequently, even if we're the ones saying them. So we
               | need to pay close attention to how we talk to ourselves.
        
               | newsbinator wrote:
               | Could you suggest some common negative expressions to map
               | to more positive ones?
               | 
               | It'd be great if we could put together a list/gist.
        
               | specialist wrote:
               | Ya. Now that you point it out, that's a glaring omission.
               | 
               | It was a great deal of effort to monitor myself, flag the
               | negative stuff, dig down to determine my actual root
               | goal, and then figure out some kind of alternate positive
               | framing.
               | 
               | Complimentary to this was learning that all negatives can
               | be stated as a positive. (Something I got from an in-
               | house corporate communications seminar, if you can
               | believe that.)
               | 
               | My go to example from parenting is to say "Please walk"
               | instead of "Don't run!". It was super effective!
               | 
               | (Transformed my parenting. Used my son as my guinea pig.
               | I hadn't yet learned about positive reinforcement, which
               | is really too bad.)
               | 
               | So. I'll start journaling expressions, as I remember
               | them.
               | 
               | Thanks.
        
             | mistermann wrote:
             | A second pass of criticality on your own prediction can be
             | helpful, especially if you can trick your mind into not re-
             | using the identical logic and "facts" (heuristics upon
             | premises, etc) when making the initial judgement.
        
           | aaron-santos wrote:
           | It's a fantastic way to get top comments here though.
        
       | rajangdavis wrote:
       | Anecdotally, it makes it easier to map disparate things into
       | something more structured. I would rather have spaghetti code
       | than a spaghetti brain.
       | 
       | Problem solving is dominant in my way of thinking which can be
       | good or bad depending on the context. It's helpful for giving
       | advice but terrible from an empathetic and listening standpoint.
       | 
       | On the negative side, I have hard time reading emotional tone in
       | text.
       | 
       | It does not aid in communication nor soft/social skills.
        
       | hsuduebc2 wrote:
       | Are there any positives?
        
       | amar-laksh wrote:
       | It's so telling that most of the comments here are either:
       | cautionary tales or negative effects. I sure feel young and naive
       | in this audience.
        
         | tluyben2 wrote:
         | Everyone who has programmed full-time for a good number of
         | years will have had some of the negative effects, even though
         | many go in loving programming itself. Things around
         | programming, mostly the very things that make programming a
         | practical skill, like making money, using frameworks and
         | libraries, deadlines etc can make it a horrorshow. If I just
         | work on little fun projects no one will ever see, I am that boy
         | from 40 years ago again who loved every second of writing
         | software.
        
       | adflux wrote:
       | Losing people skills. Not running into many women in your place
       | of work. Your group of friends consisting of mostly (programming)
       | men, who struggle to meet or even talk to women.
        
         | gibbonsrcool wrote:
         | This hit close to home. I don't think it's exclusive to
         | programmers. I think this is happening in all industries, we
         | just see it to a greater degree. Everyone's aware of
         | polarization in politics, but I think it's happening to race,
         | gender, and any other culturally distinct segment of humanity.
         | With all this increased connectedness, we're distilling into
         | groups that are like-minded, politically and otherwise.
         | 
         | I went to an all boys school. I believe it was terrible for
         | social development and made it hard to relate to women. When I
         | see that same-sex education is on the rise I feel we're making
         | a big mistake.
        
         | amar-laksh wrote:
         | I've found talking to myself out loud while coding kinda helps
         | with that.
        
       | jraph wrote:
       | I don't see many positive things in this thread. I'd like to cast
       | some positive light here.
       | 
       | I don't know if my mindset is what lead me to programming or if
       | this is a virtuous circle, but I value how I approach concepts,
       | ideas and people interactions in life, thinking clearly and
       | consciously about problems and situations, including people
       | problem, and I'd not be surprised to learn these things could be
       | linked. There is also some creativity through out-of-the-box
       | thinking to come up with solutions to random problems.
       | 
       | This stuff can be trained through other (analytical) activities
       | than programming too, of course.
       | 
       | I do a lot of programming in my spare time and I don't see clear
       | drawbacks specific to programming.
       | 
       | Approach life positively, be open-minded, be patient, your
       | opinion is not necessarily the right one, don't be over-
       | confident, spend energy into understanding the perspective of
       | other people, etc. All this should be applied to programming too
       | as soon as you work with other people anyway.
       | 
       | Programming does not make you antisocial in itself, and can
       | certainly actually help if you leverage and transpose the rights
       | skills at the right time. If you are the kind of people who are
       | very analytical, even in interactions with people, that's a
       | strength that can make you a very lovable, trusty person if you
       | don't make it creepy. It can help you provide balanced,
       | reasonable, valuable insight to someone who is confiding in you
       | for instance. People may trust you for avoiding saying pleasant
       | but false things, which makes your pleasant feedback more trusty.
       | You'll find pleasant but true stuff to say anyway, thanks to your
       | problem-solving mindset.
       | 
       | I also spend a lot of time with various people (most of them not
       | being programmers) and going outside, and that's also a very
       | important aspect of who I am. Programming does not prevent this.
        
       | feisar wrote:
       | for me i speak differently and write differently writing: i do
       | not use capitals or p unless i force myself to type a capital
       | letter or punctuation speaking: when i dont pay attention i use
       | "!" and "null"
        
         | booleandilemma wrote:
         | You missed a semicolon at the end there.
        
       | sdeep27 wrote:
       | I think it's a great question, and one that specialists of all
       | fields should ask themselves (->
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9formation_professionnel...
       | ).
       | 
       | As a solution, everyone will find different things that work for
       | them, but doing things that have no relation physically/mentally
       | to work (screen time, high logic use, software related problems,
       | sitting) and essentially are on the opposite end of the spectrum,
       | like hiking, swimming, tennis have helped for me.
        
         | amar-laksh wrote:
         | Thank you so much for the term! This is exactly what I was
         | looking for in order to start a deep dive that hopefully will
         | help with Deformation professionnelle! :D
        
       | streamofdigits wrote:
       | Makes you think the universe is a computer and other such
       | obsessions
        
         | silverscania wrote:
         | It might be
        
           | marton78 wrote:
           | It is!
           | 
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-2P3MSZrBM
        
       | mbar84 wrote:
       | Who knows about correlation or causation, but programming and
       | humility go together. Training people to always ask the
       | questions:                 - How do I know that this is true?
       | - What would otherwise have to be true for this conclusion to
       | follow?        - How can I bisect this process to test a
       | hypothesis?
       | 
       | So much wishful thinking and jumping to conclusions could be
       | avoided if programming (and debugging more specifically) is a
       | training to viscerally understand the scientific method.
        
       | swayvil wrote:
       | Speaking as a meditation guy.
       | 
       | When you spend a lot of time concentrating your attention (as we
       | do when solving our engineering puzzles) you tend to stay
       | concentrated. It becomes a lifestyle.
       | 
       | And when you spend a lot of time concentrating on ideas, you tend
       | to stay concentrated on ideas. Ideas are your world.
       | 
       | But ideas are not the world. The world is infinitely larger.
       | 
       | And concentration is brother to blindness. Which is to say,
       | concentrating on X leads to ignoring Y, Z and Q.
       | 
       | Pardon me if this is vague.
        
         | myfavoritedog wrote:
         | Meditation is an amazing thing. Its impact on your mind and
         | your understanding of your mind can be profound.
         | 
         | Sadly, many of the people who could most use the practice find
         | the whole concept to be laughable.
        
         | fvv wrote:
         | don't worry it's not vague I think both types of thinking are
         | needed, creativity can be suppressed by too much concentration
         | or fatigue, but it certainly becomes more effective if
         | nourished by the knowledge that concentration helps to obtain
        
         | mekkkkkk wrote:
         | > Ideas are your world.
         | 
         | Wow, I feel that this describes me perfectly. I've never
         | considered it before, but I tend to think in hypotheticals,
         | generalized broad solutions or abstract concepts. I rarely
         | spend brain power thinking of practical or tangible things.
         | Maybe this is a consequence of (or reinforced by) programming
         | since an early age.
         | 
         | It has certainly taken it's toll. I'm always the one that
         | forgets social occasions, leaves a mess and have sub-par social
         | skills. My mind is always "in the clouds" so to speak.
        
       | siva7 wrote:
       | This is a good topic and vastly underappreciated. It's a career
       | where you should closely listen to your body and have an active
       | lifestyle due to the sedentary nature of this career. When it
       | doesn't feel right stop for the day and look after yourself. Do
       | some sport, meet friends. If it doesn't help, change jobs. Never
       | let someone above abuse you. Otherwise your health will start to
       | suffer in the years coming.
        
       | nescioquid wrote:
       | I read a about a study which considered how scientists and
       | engineers who wrote code thought about their programs. The
       | scientists considered their code as an extension of their own
       | thinking, whereas engineers were mainly preoccupied with how the
       | code could fail.
       | 
       | There is probably also a virtuous cycle which reinforces how the
       | scientist and engineer view their code, so it may be hard to
       | untangle how much of that thought pattern was "innate" vs
       | learned.
       | 
       | I think your question is interesting and I wonder if it may
       | depend (in part) on one's motivations for writing software.
        
         | civilized wrote:
         | > I read a about a study which considered how scientists and
         | engineers who wrote code thought about their programs. The
         | scientists considered their code as an extension of their own
         | thinking, whereas engineers were mainly preoccupied with how
         | the code could fail.
         | 
         | This makes sense when you consider _why_ they 're writing the
         | code. Scientists use code as an electronic brain to answer
         | scientific questions that are too complicated to answer
         | mentally or with pen and paper. Engineers create services that
         | don't necessarily answer scientific questions, but do useful
         | work and need to be reliable.
         | 
         | There is a substantial intersection though: for example, Google
         | provides services that answer interesting/scientific questions,
         | like "what are people saying on the internet" and "the
         | frequency of words in books over time", while also being
         | thoroughly engineered for performance and reliability.
        
       | dekhn wrote:
       | I constantly interpret everything in life as a programming
       | optimization problem. It drives everybody around me crazy.
        
         | myfavoritedog wrote:
         | Same here, although I mostly keep it to myself with non-
         | programmers.
        
         | gjvnq wrote:
         | And that's how I started having problems enjoing games like
         | Factorio.
        
         | amar-laksh wrote:
         | I do that too! That's part of the reason I was wondering what
         | it does to our brains long-term
        
           | marton78 wrote:
           | When you start dreaming about yourself being code and
           | consisting of modules you know you've done something to your
           | brain.
        
             | woolcap wrote:
             | I once had a dream where I could 'pipe' physical objects
             | through a bash command-line...
        
         | bobthechef wrote:
         | This is the Law of Instrument. It's a disease. (It isn't a
         | "neurological effect", pace what the other commenter suggests
         | and despite whatever neurological correlates it has, strictly
         | speaking.)
         | 
         | To broaden your horizons, consider diversifying your interests.
         | Don't use ALL your time programming. Devote some of the free
         | time you might be using to program for others things that
         | broaden the mind. Try good literature (classics), good
         | philosophy (approachable in the way its written unless you want
         | to become a scholar of this stuff), and leisure. Literature
         | helps you break out of the prejudices of your own culture.
         | Philosophy lets you develop a clearer grasp of the big picture
         | and ultimate reality. Leisure (NOT recreation) entails the
         | passive absorption of the world around you and allows it to
         | enter into your mind without you running your gears all the
         | time. Contemplation is perhaps the purest form of leisure. It
         | dissolves our alienation from reality. Turn those gears off and
         | you have a better chance to break out of your mental rut.
         | 
         | Over time, you will put programming in its place.
        
           | dekhn wrote:
           | thanks for the lecture, but I already have a garage full of
           | hobbies (to which I apply computer optimization techniques)
           | and a family (to whom I've tried, but failed, to apply
           | computer optimization techniques). I read for fun, etc, but I
           | don't think any of that is going to change my mind.
        
             | codr7 wrote:
             | It's not all bad.
             | 
             | If you can stop yourself from finding faults with
             | everything, thinking about life in terms of complex systems
             | is not a terrible idea.
        
               | dekhn wrote:
               | One day, I read a foodback (a feedback suggestion) at
               | Google from Jeff Dean. He told the food people they could
               | turn a buffet line into two lines by letting people go
               | down the other side at the same time, doubling
               | throughput.
        
         | ferd wrote:
         | You might enjoy reading "Algorithms to Live By: The Computer
         | Science of Human Decisions"
        
       | agentcoops wrote:
       | I've discussed the topic of "aphantasia" (the inability to form
       | mental images [0]) with programmers at various jobs as well as
       | with non-developer friends. It's certainly anecdata, but it's
       | always been curious to me that I've only ever heard engineers
       | identify with this condition -- and more frequently than the
       | understood likelihood of it within the general population would
       | lead me to expect.
       | 
       | So, again, not a known neurological effect of programming, but an
       | interesting correlation I've observed between many of the best
       | programmers I've known and the condition of aphantasia.
       | 
       | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
        
         | ryandvm wrote:
         | Interesting. I'm a software developer and I've only recently
         | become aware that I seem to be deficient in this area. For
         | example, I can imagine the concept of particular person's face
         | (shape, features, etc.), but there's not really a visual aspect
         | to it in my mind's eye. Of course, it's kind of hard to figure
         | out if what you imagine is what somebody else imagines.
        
         | agentcoops wrote:
         | Coincidentally, within the original 1880 study [0] that first
         | grappled with the phenomena it was most highly-correlated with
         | scientists. He concludes that: "scientific men as a class have
         | feeble powers of visual representation... My own conclusion is,
         | that an over-readiness to perceive clear mental pictures is
         | antagonistic to the acquirement of habits of highly generalised
         | and abstract thought."
         | 
         | [0]
         | https://web.archive.org/web/20160416064610/http://psychclass...
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | qq4 wrote:
       | I know that when I get into a "flow state" while programming I
       | tell my spouse to have patience with the way I reason/talk for
       | the next few hours. Best way I can describe how I feel is the
       | Tetris effect turned up to 11.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_effect
        
         | jcul wrote:
         | I can relate to this.
         | 
         | Especially after intense bouts of focusing on particularly
         | complex problems, I might experience thoughts and have dreams
         | in strange logic / programming kind of modes, unlike normal
         | linguistic thought patterns.
         | 
         | And non physically real things, like dreaming about wanting a
         | drink in strange logic. Or if I'd been working on something
         | very multithreaded, thinking in fragmented parallel modes.
         | 
         | Very hard to describe it with normal language. Can be almost
         | disturbing when you wake and get back into normal thinking mode
         | as it is difficult to relate to the previous mode.
        
         | L_226 wrote:
         | Anecdote time: When I was in university I worked in a
         | supermarket as a cashier. I became extremely efficient in
         | packing groceries, in fact I took it as a point of pride to
         | pack items as effectively as possible. Soft items on top or
         | separately, tesselating boxed items and fully utilising bag
         | space - without compromising bag integrity, approximately equal
         | and manageable bag weights and sizes bespoke to the customer's
         | strength. And everything FAST. I had repeat customers come
         | specifically to me just for my packing. But I found that after
         | my shifts I would nearly always dream about packing groceries,
         | and operating the register.
         | 
         | These days I still enjoy arranging and packing my own groceries
         | when shopping, to the infinite exasperation of my partner. I
         | also enjoy the same thing with the dishwasher...
        
           | drq wrote:
           | So that's why I so much enjoy packing the dishwasher and
           | optimizing how I arrange all the items. Interesting....
        
           | codr7 wrote:
           | I do this, and I never worked in any supermarkets.
           | 
           | It's just so mind-numbingly boring and frustrating in itself
           | so turning it into a challenge helps me cope and even enjoy
           | it.
        
         | liamwire wrote:
         | I've experienced this carry-over into my verbal communication
         | with my partner before, it's nice to have a name for it.
        
         | sourdoughness wrote:
         | Plus one here: I get a strong case of the cliche "man must fix
         | problem" after a solid day of programming. It's helpful when
         | you can keep it in balance, but it's definitely not the right
         | tool for all situations.
        
           | dj_gitmo wrote:
           | This reminds me of a great scene from "Halt and Catch Fire".
           | The lead engineer, Gordon, is supposed to be making dinner
           | for his kids and putting them to bed while his wife is away,
           | but he notices a small leak from the kitchen sink. He then
           | drops all plans and next you see him under the sink. Marital
           | problems ensue.
        
             | swayvil wrote:
             | Woo! new tv show to watch
        
               | dj_gitmo wrote:
               | It's really good, both as a drama with great characters,
               | and as a show about tech.
        
             | phkahler wrote:
             | Common in real life: Wife comes home and tells husband
             | about shit gone wrong in her day. Husband interprets this
             | as asking for help solving those problems and starts
             | offering suggestions. No, he was just supposed to listen.
        
         | is0tope wrote:
         | Definitely interesting phenomenon, I wasn't aware it had a
         | name. The closest thing to this for me was when I played
         | factorio for a week.
         | 
         | I feel like if you are a programmer that game will resonate
         | with you heavily, making it possibly addictive. I set myself a
         | goal of building the rocket, and then stopping. I know people
         | however who went off the deep end with mods etc hah!
         | 
         | The thing I remember most however was how it invaded my dreams.
         | I found myself dreaming at least a few times of conveyor belts,
         | pickers and trains. I think possibly this was some low level
         | version of the aforementioned effect.
        
         | geijoenr wrote:
         | I confirm I used to experience this as well, and I have the
         | feeling it also has some long lasting effect in one's
         | communication abilities.
        
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