[HN Gopher] The Surprising Story of the First Microprocessors (2...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Surprising Story of the First Microprocessors (2016)
        
       Author : areoform
       Score  : 51 points
       Date   : 2021-09-16 05:23 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
        
       | Rochus wrote:
       | > _Transistors, the electronic amplifiers and switches found at
       | the heart of everything from pocket radios to warehouse-size
       | supercomputers, were invented in 1947._
       | 
       | Is this true? Recently this article
       | https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/turing-oversold.html pointed to
       | the following invention of the field-effect transistor from 1925:
       | https://patents.google.com/patent/US1745175
        
         | causi wrote:
         | There's a difference between patenting an idea and actually
         | building a working device.
        
           | Rochus wrote:
           | The claim in the article was "invented in 1947"; a patent is
           | by definition granted for an invention, regardless whether a
           | working device was built or not.
        
             | analog31 wrote:
             | As I understand it the patent is only valid if it shows
             | that the idea can be reduced to practice.
        
               | pacificmint wrote:
               | Someone got a patent for a warp drive [1], so I don't
               | think being actually possible is a requirement for
               | patents.
               | 
               | [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2001057881A1/en
        
               | Rochus wrote:
               | No. It must be novel, non-obvious and "useful", which
               | obviously was considered to be fulfilled by the patent
               | office. The patent describes how the invention can be
               | used instead of tubes.
        
               | analog31 wrote:
               | Doesn't there need to be a preferred embodiment? Not
               | debating, just curious.
        
               | Rochus wrote:
               | I have not studied the content of the patent, but the
               | "Cited by" list includes the Who's Who of the industry;
               | so the invention seems to be relevant.
        
         | xyzzy21 wrote:
         | The patent exists but NOTHING was done with it and nothing was
         | brought to market or practical use.
         | 
         | Ideas are cheap and worthless - it's the execution that
         | matters. That execution in the context of a patent is a viable
         | product or use.
         | 
         | MOSFETs were NOT viable until the 1960s. RCA made the first
         | practical metal-gate CMOS that is known as the "4000 series" of
         | logic parts. And even then, that technology didn't take off
         | until all the other problems of mobile ions, threshold tuning,
         | etc. were finally solved to give us CMOS as we know it today.
         | 
         | There are always wankers who point to this patent, but it
         | really doesn't matter because it took another 50 years to
         | achieve anything that mattered.
        
           | Rochus wrote:
           | > There are always wankers ...
           | 
           | Gutter language does not make the argument more convincing.
        
             | approxim8ion wrote:
             | I'd argue that tone policing doesn't refute the argument
             | either.
        
         | dragontamer wrote:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_detector
         | 
         | The cat-whisker detector is commonly described as the first
         | solid-state device, discovered in 1874, patented in the early
         | 1900s, and used in various experimental radios through the
         | development of radio technology at that time.
         | 
         | Its not a "modern transistor design", but its solid state, its
         | through a semiconductor... and its one step away from reliably
         | amplifying. Its kinda funny that the physics to understand this
         | thing were developed after its invention...
        
         | cxr wrote:
         | > Although both patents were granted, no records exist to prove
         | that Heil or Lilienfeld actually constructed functioning
         | devices. <https://www.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/field-
         | effect-s...>
        
           | Rochus wrote:
           | It's still an invention by definition (patent law). Thanks
           | for the article; notably the article makes no doubt that the
           | invention by Lilienfeld would have worked; apparently he just
           | didn't build it himself.
        
             | xyzzy21 wrote:
             | But it means nothing. People patented perpetual motion
             | machines throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. So does
             | that make the patent meaningful? NO!
        
               | Rochus wrote:
               | Apparently this is an emotional topic; personally I have
               | no stakes in it (besides that I'm a trained electrical
               | engineer and had lectures in patent law), I'm just
               | curious; Colby sent me this link which describes an
               | experiment where they built Lilienfelds device in the
               | nineties:
               | http://public.gettysburg.edu/~bcrawfor/BECrawford-MS-
               | UVM.pdf
        
       | ggm wrote:
       | Some simple maths:
       | 
       | 4004 had 2.5k transistors. 8008 had 3.5k. z80 had <10k
       | transistors.
       | 
       | A modern 4 core ARM chip has 16b transistors, in 122mm^2 die
       | area. So, if we scale current die area for 16b transistors to a
       | Z80, on 10k, we get 1.6m scale factor. 122mm^2 scaled down 1.6m
       | times. 16 x 10^9 / 1 x 10^4 == 1.6 x 10^6 == 1.6m
       | 
       | This size is of course slightly preposterous, but if we accept
       | there is some linearity in die scaling at current VLSI scale, it
       | becomes clear a Z80 will fit inside a hypodermic needle. Its
       | within the size of current technology, to be injectable. Power
       | would have to be an external RF source, or maybe we can exploit
       | brownian motion, or have a motile tail and do some kind of
       | strained-crystal voltage, run asynch clock, we can also do a tail
       | for WiFi and do power and signal through RF.
       | 
       | Injectable VLSI is a research space. It has great potential for
       | in-vivo monitoring. Subcutaneous, or intravienous is a detail at
       | this point. (note, this is quite different to the boring RFID
       | sealed in some bubble which people get subcutaneous, thats been a
       | thing since pet-chipping and before. I'm talking active
       | electronics here)
       | 
       | We maybe can't all suffer the bill gates injected 5G nightmare,
       | but we could play a mario gameboy, inside our bloodstream. (The
       | original gameboy was a custom CPU modelled on a Z80)
       | 
       | I'm fully vaxxed for C19. I wonder if I can hear the "tetris"
       | theme inside...
        
         | flohofwoe wrote:
         | I wonder how much performance we got out of the 1.6m scaling
         | factor. I'd guess somewhere between 10k and 100k faster, but
         | nowhere near a million times?
        
           | rnentjes wrote:
           | I would like to see that number as well, I actually expect it
           | to be a lot more than a million.
           | 
           | Take 1000 times the clock rate, 4 cores, multiple
           | instructions per clock instead of multiple clocks per
           | instruction. Operations on 64 bits i.o 8 and the Z80 doesn't
           | even have multiply or divide operators and would need to loop
           | and add to do a multiplication/division. And then think about
           | things like ARM SIMD instructions.
        
             | flohofwoe wrote:
             | True, but can multiple cores, pipelining, etc... really
             | make up for another factor of 1000x? And most of this
             | complexity exists because memory latency couldn't keep up.
        
         | zsmi wrote:
         | Doesn't quite work like that. If the die needs to interact with
         | the world, it needs a pad ring. That's a lot larger.
         | 
         | It will basically be like this die when students placed a small
         | MIPS core.
         | http://pages.hmc.edu/harris/cmosvlsi/4e/lect/lect2.pdf (See
         | slide 29)
         | 
         | But the center will be a whole lot emptier.
        
         | amenghra wrote:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_Voyage
        
         | jcun4128 wrote:
         | One thing that's scifi but would be cool is "smart sand". Using
         | tiny parts that communicate with each other/interlock. Form
         | larger units.
        
           | timonoko wrote:
           | Smart sand that learns like neural nets. Recipe goes like
           | this: Mix semiconducting grains and metal and solder bits.
           | Apply electric pattern at one end of the bucket and shake the
           | bucket until some useful pattern appears at the other end.
           | Then you apply much higher current between those patterns.
           | Solder bits melt and form more permanent neural routes.
           | Repeat until the device works as expected.
        
           | TeMPOraL wrote:
           | Obligatory raining on the parade: small enough smart sand
           | might be a cancer risk, the way asbestos is (suspected to
           | be)[0] - apparently our bodies really don't like having
           | small, stiff objects poking at it from inside, causing
           | mechanical damage.
           | 
           | That said, I'm all for "smart sand" and programmable matter.
           | IIRC, the tricky bits are in making the individual smart
           | particles to stick to each other, and then making them behave
           | in a coordinated fashion.
           | 
           | It's an interesting challenge to think about: you have a
           | thousand, or a million, small little robots - how to get them
           | to do something useful as a group? If the robots can barely
           | sense their environment, can barely move on their own, can't
           | communicate with each other except maybe their nearest
           | neighbors - how to make them work together in a controlled
           | fashion? Say, I have this bag of "smart sand", I pour it on a
           | table and want it to form into a cube when I press "Enter" on
           | my laptop - how do I translate a bulk concept like "cube
           | shape" into instructions for a random pile of tiny robots?
           | 
           | Does anyone know of good papers dealing with this problem?
           | 
           | --
           | 
           | [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_impact_of_asbestos
           | #Mech...
        
             | Wildgoose wrote:
             | I remember reading of a primitive unicellular organism that
             | can link up with its fellows and become mobile, searching
             | for water sources if I recall correctly.
        
             | jcun4128 wrote:
             | Yeah I was thinking about it, the particles would have to
             | be able to transfer power to each other by contact. If it's
             | a problem of corrosion maybe through induction. And some
             | particles are specialized eg. an IMU or a battery, etc...
             | spatial would depend on external direction probably IMU
             | combo. But the manufacturing would be insane... scale and
             | then hopefully it's cheap enough it could be like dirt. In
             | the end what is it for, is it strong structurally.
             | Clustering compute of each particle would be interesting
             | too.
             | 
             | Anyway at least you can model/simulate it, that would be a
             | cool thing to design/program.
        
             | evgen wrote:
             | > It's an interesting challenge to think about: you have a
             | thousand, or a million, small little robots - how to get
             | them to do something useful as a group?
             | 
             | This was a big focus of a lot of the ALife research in the
             | late 90s and early aughts. Cellular automata, swarming
             | systems, etc. You can generally start with anything coming
             | out of University of New Mexico and bounce around the
             | citation graph of an interesting-sounding paper. You might
             | also want to check out Dave Ackley's T2 Tile project and
             | some of the youtube videos he has put out over the past few
             | years. One thing he is very clear about is addressing
             | robustness in the face of component failure (e.g. his
             | 'Moveable Feast Machine' and 'Demon Horde' stuff is rather
             | fun to watch as it responds to random and widespread
             | failures.) Most of the work in this area is clearly bio-
             | inspired, but why re-invent the wheel when you can steal
             | from the best available examples...
        
             | hnlmorg wrote:
             | I guess in the same way you orchestrate any cluster of
             | bots: you give each an ID, design your structure on your
             | server and then and then pass those instructions to the
             | bots.
             | 
             | They wouldn't be aware of each other in any "smart" way but
             | you'd want to keep the logic as low as possible on the
             | nodes so you have less compute power to miniaturise.
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | I feel that's not robust enough - what if some of your
               | bots are missing? When we're talking millions of
               | microscopic robots, I think we need to assume that many
               | will break down, get misplaced, or be in a position
               | disadvantageous for it to fulfill a designated role. A
               | robust system cannot rely on all the robots in a
               | predetermined ID range/set to be there - it needs to work
               | with what's actually available.
               | 
               | Ideally, I imagine being able to point at a random pile
               | of robots and make that pile do something, without
               | knowing any of the IDs or health of individual cells up
               | front.
               | 
               | So I wonder, is there a way to design the system in such
               | a way that individual robots don't need to be
               | micromanaged, but instead they self-assign to the
               | appropriate role/place, without having full knowledge of
               | the shared goal?
               | 
               | Imagine those experiments in making shapes from sand with
               | standing audio waves, e.g. [0]. The grains of sand have
               | no identity and no awareness. The person setting up the
               | experiment doesn't care about what any individual grain
               | of sand does. They just set up a pattern, encode it in a
               | standing wave, and the sand moves to conform to it. I'm
               | wondering if this kind of approach is possible, except
               | with the robots moving on their own instead of being
               | moved by air. And, as a next step, with a pattern being
               | persisted in the pile of robots, instead of being
               | supplied externally.
               | 
               | --
               | 
               | [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJAgrUBF4w
        
               | Wildgoose wrote:
               | Similar to "flocking" behaviour in birds that only
               | requires notice to be taken of immediate neighbours in
               | the flock.
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | Yes, something like that - and I'm wondering if there's a
               | way to imprint a pattern on such flock of birds, so that
               | they then flock into appropriate shape from whatever
               | starting configuration they were in, and maintain the
               | shape over time, even in the face of strong winds or some
               | of the flock members dying.
               | 
               | Here's one idea I'm thinking about: flocking-like
               | equations in "boids" simulations are local, a pure
               | function of (the observed state of) the neighbors. In a
               | typical implementation, they just compute
               | velocity/acceleration vectors out of
               | position/velocity/acceleration/class of the neighbors[0].
               | And the result are pretty, fluid, and _uniform in steady-
               | state_ flocks. But what if we added more observable state
               | and equations to this?
               | 
               | Imagine each boid having a "color", a value that is a
               | function of not just the color of the neighbors, but also
               | of their position/velocity/acceleration/class. And then,
               | the equations computing velocity/acceleration take this
               | color into account too, e.g. by offsetting the result by
               | some function of the neighbors' colors. Could we then
               | design the f([colors]) -> v/a offset and f([everything])
               | -> color functions so that they end up forcing the flock
               | into an arbitrary uniform shape? I believe we could, but
               | I'm not sure how to define these functions for any
               | _particular_ shape.
               | 
               | (Or, in short: I'm looking for a method to turn an
               | arbitrary picture into an error term for boids rules that
               | makes the flock assume the shape of the picture, instead
               | of an uniform blob.)
               | 
               | I'm sure there must be some pre-existing theoretical work
               | behind finding such functions - this problem feels like a
               | cousin of the "find a formula that draws a target picture
               | on X/Y plot". I just don't know the right keywords to
               | look this up.
               | 
               | But this is kind of the idea on the back of my head -
               | encoding desired group behavior in a function that is
               | common to every member of the group and is entirely local
               | (only a function of the immediate observed environment),
               | but that forces the system to settle in a desired
               | configuration.
               | 
               | --
               | 
               | [0] - "class" being e.g. member of same species, a
               | predator, or a prey.
        
               | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
               | I don't think that would work. Bloxels would need to know
               | their location in the grid. And any kind of closed object
               | would cause problems because bloxels would only adhere to
               | the surface, not build up bulk inside.
               | 
               | Maybe better would be a kind of 3D printing model, where
               | the shape is 2D and changes over time, which leads to
               | accretion of a 3D shape.
               | 
               | Even so - without feedback and monitoring you'll get
               | errors and holes.
               | 
               | And you'll still have the problem that unless you're
               | using some novel form of programmable electrostatic
               | bonding, adhesion between bloxels will be weak.
               | 
               | So you won't be able to do much with your finished shape
               | except look at it. Probably not even pick it up, in fact.
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | > _Bloxels would need to know their location in the
               | grid._
               | 
               | That's the thing I'm trying to work around. If bloxels
               | are like boids in the flocking simulations, they don't
               | care about their location - they move and change state
               | based on the movement and state of their neighbors. In
               | the flocking simulations, boids automatically form stable
               | shapes and recover from disruptions, and none of them
               | have assigned positions or even any kind of unique
               | identifier. It's the repulsion and attraction functions -
               | identical in every boid - that determine the steady state
               | shape of the flock.
               | 
               | That said, I think there's a way for bloxels to tell
               | where they are in their "flock". Imagine each bloxel
               | continuously publishing a "depth" value that's computed
               | as e.g. length of the vector \Sigma_{n}^{Neighbors}:
               | Depth(n) x DirectionTo(n). The values would initially
               | fluctuate, but I feel it's possible to set this up so
               | that over short time the system will settle, with every
               | boid's "depth" value being a correct indication of how
               | far it is from the centre of the group. So e.g. upon
               | activation, a pile of bloxels could wait for "depth"
               | values to stabilize, and then each bloxel would remember
               | its value as its designated position, and execute some
               | different algorithm with that bit of state fixed.
               | 
               | Note to self: there's a bunch of free "agent-based
               | simulation" programs I saw on the Internet the other day;
               | such "depth" calculation should be a simple thing to
               | simulate and verify.
               | 
               | Related keyword: phase-locked loops. See also: fireflies
               | that synchronize their flashing patterns over time.
               | 
               | > _And any kind of closed object would cause problems
               | because bloxels would only adhere to the surface, not
               | build up bulk inside._
               | 
               | Why can't they build up bulk, using each other for
               | support?
               | 
               | > _Maybe better would be a kind of 3D printing model,
               | where the shape is 2D and changes over time, which leads
               | to accretion of a 3D shape._
               | 
               | I'm not sure what you mean. That sounds like regular 3D
               | printing using "dumb" matter?
               | 
               | > _Even so - without feedback and monitoring you 'll get
               | errors and holes._
               | 
               | Bloxels would be active and reacting to each other - this
               | is a feedback-full system.
               | 
               | > _unless you 're using some novel form of programmable
               | electrostatic bonding, adhesion between bloxels will be
               | weak_
               | 
               | I have no good ideas here. I don't know of any
               | programmable bonding system that isn't too energy
               | intensive to use with current technology. AFAIK
               | electromagnets are power hogs. Mechanical locking systems
               | are also energy intensive, and also tricky to use
               | (maneuvering the mating endpoints to meet, compensating
               | torque, etc.)
        
               | Wildgoose wrote:
               | Yes. Imagine that the "boids" change colour as well as
               | alter their X, Y, Z position. That supplies additional
               | "guiding" information to provide purpose and also alter
               | behaviour, in much the same way that hormones act on a
               | growing foetus.
               | 
               | And this reminds me of those audience experiments with
               | people holding up blue and red cards and using this
               | "vote" to successfully steer a vehicle.
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | Yup. Also nothing says the boids have to execute a single
               | behavior all the time.
               | 
               | In a parallel comment, I described an idea where boids
               | first start doing nothing except publishing a "depth"
               | value that's a function of their neighbors "depth" value,
               | waiting for the system to settle (as detected by
               | neighboring values not changing by more than some fixed
               | epsilon over some fixed Dt). They could then record their
               | individual values and continue to a second algorithm
               | (e.g. traditional "boids"), that uses this (now fixed)
               | "depth" value as a parameter.
               | 
               | This is, in general, a pattern for individual unit to
               | discover their role in the group, without ever knowing
               | the whole group. I just realized this sounds like things
               | the field of "distributed consensus" deals with - I'll
               | add that to my research list.
               | 
               | I remember the voting games and "Twitch plays X" events.
               | It's kind of a different situation (external controllers
               | voting on control input to a single actor), but there
               | might be some parallels.
        
               | hnlmorg wrote:
               | It might be worth first reading up on the research being
               | drone performances. The current model is basically what
               | I'd already described
               | (https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/04/there-
               | s-no...) but research is happening to use "AI" to
               | navigate swarms (eg
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KIa9FlmbRc)
               | 
               | The real problem with such research is it might work on a
               | quadcopter with room for a chipset capable of relatively
               | powerful real time compution (be that an off the shelf
               | CPU or something more bespoke), but that doesn't scale
               | down to the grain of sand level. At that point you'll
               | want to offload as much computation overhead as you can.
               | Which, again, brings me back to my original post.
               | 
               | Maybe one day in the distant future (if we haven't
               | annihilated each other first) we'll have the technology
               | to built smart grains of sand. But it's seems pointless
               | theorising about something that might just as easily be
               | deprecated by some other fantasy device by our current
               | technological capabilities.
               | 
               | Anyhow, if you're after a paper on the actual
               | calculations you'd run to convert a database of nearest
               | neighbour coordinates into a matrix that can be used to
               | instruct those robots, then I don't have anything
               | directly to hand on that. When I've looked this stuff up
               | in the past I've found most of the time it was
               | proprietary. Maybe there is a paper I've missed. However
               | I have seen papers doing similar work (in the sense that
               | there is transferable logic) in a two dimensional fields,
               | eg matrix reordering.
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | Thanks! I haven't thought about drone performances. In
               | retrospect, it's a good starting point. I've seen plenty
               | of videos of drone swarms being synced up to produce
               | shapes and animations.
               | 
               | > _Maybe one day in the distant future (if we haven 't
               | annihilated each other first) we'll have the technology
               | to built smart grains of sand. But it's seems pointless
               | theorising about something that might just as easily be
               | deprecated by some other fantasy device by our current
               | technological capabilities._
               | 
               | Maybe. But I feel this isn't pointless - I find myself
               | constantly returning to this topic whenever I follow
               | seemingly unrelated avenues of idle curiosity (e.g. "how
               | to build self-maintaining systems", "how to do in-orbit
               | construction" , "how to get rid of household cleaning
               | chores", "how to build a food replicator", "ooh isn't
               | biotech kind of fun", etc.). I think we'll eventually
               | start building "smart matter" at _some_ scale. Might be
               | nanometer. Might be millimeter. Might be meter. Each of
               | those scales has its own physics regime, but I think the
               | concepts behind self-organization will be common. And we
               | 're already working on those ideas when studying biology
               | at molecular and cellular level.
               | 
               | > _When I 've looked this stuff up in the past I've found
               | most of the time it was proprietary._
               | 
               | Do you remember any names? Might be that some of the
               | research is released. Or maybe my employer has access.
               | 
               | > _However I have seen papers doing similar work (in the
               | sense that there is transferable logic) in a two
               | dimensional fields, eg matrix reordering._
               | 
               | Thanks, I'll look it up.
        
               | hnlmorg wrote:
               | > _I feel that 's not robust enough - what if some of
               | your bots are missing? When we're talking millions of
               | microscopic robots, I think we need to assume that many
               | will break down, get misplaced, or be in a position
               | disadvantageous for it to fulfill a designated role. A
               | robust system cannot rely on all the robots in a
               | predetermined ID range/set to be there - it needs to work
               | with what's actually available._
               | 
               | Nothing about what I posted assumes that. I'm just saying
               | it's the server that would orchestrate them rather than
               | them orchestrating each other. The server would obviously
               | poll them for positional data (relative to neighbour),
               | health status, etc.
               | 
               | > _The person setting up the experiment doesn 't care
               | about what any individual grain of sand does. They just
               | set up a pattern, encode it in a standing wave, and the
               | sand moves to conform to it._
               | 
               | I didn't suggest that someone manually plots each grain
               | either. Clearly you'd just set up a design in a CAD and
               | then let the server define the algorithm and
               | orchestration required.
               | 
               | Much like how when you manage nodes currently, you don't
               | manually assign which node to scale up or down. You
               | define rules and let the system manage the nodes itself.
               | 
               | Given the problems of miniaturisation and decentralised
               | computing, this feels like a problem easier solved in a
               | centralised system that then hands out instructions (and
               | your requirements clearly stated there was a control
               | system that you used to instruct the grains of sand when
               | you said "press enter on my laptop").
        
           | gjvc wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo
        
             | gpderetta wrote:
             | gray-goo is _self replicating_ smart sand.
        
         | eru wrote:
         | You won't be able to exploit Brownian motion.
         | 
         | It's not about power (as in energy over time), but about free
         | energy or entropy.
         | 
         | Brownian motion is essentially just heat. In order to get any
         | useful work out of heat, you need two different temperatures.
        
           | amelius wrote:
           | Why? Being bounced around by surrounding particles can be
           | used to generate power. I once had a watch that could
           | "recharge" by moving it.
        
             | hypertele-Xii wrote:
             | The motion that winds a self-winding mechanical clock is
             | the swinging motion of an arm. Swinging motion is
             | directional, back and forth, i.e. predictable. Indeed, the
             | very self-winding mechanism is possible only because of
             | this predictable movement.
             | 
             | Brownian motion is literally random diffusion. By
             | comparison, it'd be like vibrating the watch in every
             | direction. It wouldn't wind from such motion. No known
             | mechanism exists that would.
        
             | steerablesafe wrote:
             | The problem is that once the particles in your watch bounce
             | around at the same rate (it is in thermal equilibrium with
             | the environment) then it's statistically impossible to
             | induce a net flow of energy from the environment into the
             | device.
        
             | xsor wrote:
             | Unfortunately not, this was a famous problem taught by
             | Feynman in his physics lectures. Essentially the Brownian
             | motion of the ratchet and pawl mechanism (used in your
             | watch) will eventually prevent the mechanism from
             | harvesting energy [0].
             | 
             | [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_ratchet
        
         | hnlmorg wrote:
         | A Z80 wouldn't be powerful enough to handle decryption of WiFi
         | traffic. But it's an interesting thought
        
         | twic wrote:
         | You want a fuel cell that burns glucose for power.
        
         | 908B64B197 wrote:
         | I'm afraid the support structures around the chip didn't shrink
         | at the same scale as the transistors.
        
         | fake-name wrote:
         | The issue with this is while the transistors for the CPU scale
         | like that, the structures to do wireless transmission don't.
         | 
         | If you go high enough in frequency that you can make it on the
         | same scale as the CPU, you're in frequency ranges that are
         | trivially absorbed by water. Which your device is surrounded
         | by.
         | 
         | Sure, you can just keep upping the power of the applied field
         | to get enough energy to the chip to do something useful, but it
         | has this messy side effect of causing heating. If you're OK
         | with boiling the bodily fluids of person the chip is in, it'll
         | work great!
         | 
         | > note, this is quite different to the boring RFID sealed in
         | some bubble which people get subcutaneous, thats been a thing
         | since pet-chipping and before. I'm talking active electronics
         | here
         | 
         | RFID capsules _are_ active. That 's how they work. They're
         | powered by inductive coupling into a coil in the device.
         | Interestingly, their size is largely set by the power coupling
         | requirements, so at least to some extent they are basically
         | what you're trying to describe, only actually implemented
         | within the constraints of reality.
         | 
         | > Injectable VLSI is a research space.
         | 
         | Lol
        
           | kongin wrote:
           | >The issue with this is while the transistors for the CPU
           | scale like that, the structures to do wireless transmission
           | don't.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_antenna
           | 
           | To go over it a bit more: the higher the frequency of
           | radiation the smaller you can make the antenna. However in
           | the frequencies we have the technology to send signals in,
           | and don't intrinsically give you cancer, everything becomes
           | more opaque when you increase frequency. As OP says, it's
           | like trying to send a light flash from behind a concrete
           | wall, when you can see it on the other side you're using
           | enough energy to vaporise the concrete anyway.
           | 
           | This is basically the only reason why we aren't living in a
           | surveillance dystopia to make the Matrix look tame. Thank you
           | physics for limiting the amount of possible surveillance from
           | smart dust.
           | 
           | That said, you could still use chemical or physical means of
           | communicating with microchips inside you, the issue is that
           | you're very limited in how much information you can send
           | without having them come in contact with some type of
           | macroscopic io device.
        
       | neonate wrote:
       | http://web.archive.org/web/20210917072141/https://spectrum.i...
        
       | ableal wrote:
       | Outstanding piece. Towards the end, Ken Shirrif has a good
       | discussion around this: _" [...] Still others would allow these
       | functions to be packaged in a few chips, which would collectively
       | make up the microprocessor.[...]"_
       | 
       | Along those lines, there was also a set of "bit-sliced" chips
       | from AMD, which looked very interesting:
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Am2900
       | 
       | P.S. The "Mick & Brick" book: https://www.amazon.com/Bit-slice-
       | microprocessor-design-John-...
        
       | FullyFunctional wrote:
       | needs a [2016] in the title
        
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