[HN Gopher] Kape Technologies buys ExpressVPN for $936M
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Kape Technologies buys ExpressVPN for $936M
        
       Author : schleck8
       Score  : 136 points
       Date   : 2021-09-16 15:05 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (alternativeto.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (alternativeto.net)
        
       | dannylandau wrote:
       | Considering that the whole executive team at Kape is Israeli,
       | then no one should be surprised, even if domiciled in UK. I'm a
       | fan of ExpressVPN.
        
       | croes wrote:
       | "Kape Technologies was originally found under the name of
       | Crossrider in 2011 developing advertising apps until they changed
       | their name in 2018.
       | 
       | However, their software was treated as malware by companies such
       | as Malwarebytes and Symantec begging one to ask, how can such a
       | company despite rebranding itself change the shoddy culture that
       | it had?
       | 
       | But the connections don't end there. The very first CEO of
       | Crossrider, Koby Menachemi, happened to be once a part of Unit
       | 8200 which is an Israeli Intelligence Unit in their military and
       | has also been dubbed as "Israel's NSA." Teddy Sagi, one of the
       | company's investors was mentioned in the Panama Papers which were
       | leaked in 2016."
       | 
       | https://www.hackread.com/israeli-firm-kape-technologies-expr...
        
         | vmoore wrote:
         | > How can such a company despite rebranding itself change the
         | shoddy culture that it had
         | 
         | This is the nature of VPN companies. You _must_ do your
         | research. Sadly most consumers don 't do their research and
         | blindly trust that the VPN provider has their best interests at
         | heart.
         | 
         | Should that mean we trust a provider that has _zero_ scandalous
         | pasts? Hardly. Treat every VPN provider as if they peddled
         | malware in the past I say.
        
         | peeters wrote:
         | I switched to ExpressVPN when PIA was transfered to an owner I
         | was skeptical of. Whom can one recommend now?
        
           | sillysaurusx wrote:
           | NordVPN! But only because Internet Historian's ads are too
           | effective. In fact, it's been a saga. https://www.youtube.com
           | /watch?v=iFZ_N1Faf_E&ab_channel=vonFu... is probably my
           | favorite, but there are like 40 more. (https://www.youtube.co
           | m/watch?v=0p9J9cI0t7M&ab_channel=vonFu... etc.)
           | 
           | But if you need security, roll your own VPN. You can set up a
           | Digital Ocean droplet as one. It's a pain, but you only need
           | to do it once.
           | 
           | I'm not sure there's much of a persuasive reason to use any
           | of these big providers. That's why they always fall back on
           | claims of security - unsophisticated users always fall for
           | it.
        
             | Hamuko wrote:
             | NordVPN doesn't have an entirely spotless record.
             | 
             | https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/21/20925065/nordvpn-
             | server-...
        
             | fragmede wrote:
             | Whats your threat model, that a Digital Ocean droplet is a
             | viable VPN host? It's trivially tracebackable to you.
        
               | sillysaurusx wrote:
               | How so? All you see is that a random DO droplet is
               | pinging your service. You'd need a legal request to get
               | any further info about the droplet. And in that
               | situation, it's equivalent to any other VPN service that
               | will comply with legal requests.
        
               | Xavdidtheshadow wrote:
               | A good VPN won't _have_ logs, so they _can't_ comply with
               | legal requests (instead of won't)
        
               | sillysaurusx wrote:
               | Do you really trust that? With your life?
               | 
               | This is precisely the point that the threat model bares
               | its fangs. You can ignore it, but you should be aware
               | that you're putting all your faith in that service.
               | 
               | A hypothetical Good VPN doesn't exist in China, for
               | example, because they're legally not allowed to do what
               | you suggest. Many of us don't live in China, but some do.
               | Even outside of China, is it really true that a VPN
               | service will simply give LEO the finger when they ask
               | "Who was downloading child porn off your servers?" I'm
               | skeptical they can.
        
               | penagwin wrote:
               | He is talking about government level threats, DO provides
               | no benefit.
               | 
               | I'll add that rolling your own means you're the only one
               | exiting that IP address, so if your threat model involves
               | websites profiling you and/or alternative accounts that
               | won't help.
        
               | sillysaurusx wrote:
               | Where did someone mention government level threats?
               | 
               | If the threat model is a government, Tor is the only safe
               | solution, and only after extensive training and
               | safeguards. Using anything else is actually-crazy.
        
           | james_pm wrote:
           | TIL PIA was acquired by Kape as well. I had no idea until I
           | looked at their site to see who bought ExpressVPN and saw the
           | PIA logo.
        
           | moeadham wrote:
           | ProtonVPN has a decent product and management team.
        
           | iampims wrote:
           | Mullvad
        
             | rapind wrote:
             | This or Mozilla which backs onto Mullvad.
        
         | temp8964 wrote:
         | This reminds me of a Chinese company 360 (www.360.cn). It used
         | to be a malware company and then turned into a antivirus
         | company.
        
           | Macuyiko wrote:
           | Indeed, and if you've ever used a machine in China with that
           | crap installed you know how well that went.
           | 
           | Speaking of China, it has always been strange how well
           | ExpressVPN worked there even during high pressure moments
           | where all other vpn operators bit the dust, with some already
           | wondering a few years ago if there wasn't something more
           | shady going on. Eventually I ended up using some self managed
           | shadowsocks servers and it's been a while, so no idea what
           | the current state of affairs is, but I'm even less convinced
           | to use them now.
        
             | temp8964 wrote:
             | I think any VPN service not blocked in China must have
             | backdoors.
        
             | mnahkies wrote:
             | I've never been to China, but I'm curious - is it possible
             | to connect to EC2 instances in us/eu? Anything stopping an
             | SSH tunnel or wireguard to such a machine?
        
               | SSLy wrote:
               | ML-backed DPI on the great firewall that cuts you off
               | after some time. Plethora of methods to wrap traffic in
               | non-suspicious protos have been made.
        
           | Forbo wrote:
           | Here's hoping the change is genuine and not just a
           | surveillance front.
        
             | temp8964 wrote:
             | The founder/ceo of 360 is a totally opportunist. He enjoys
             | several political titles. He would love to be a
             | surveillance front.
        
           | trutannus wrote:
           | I mean, those are transferrable skills.
        
         | ianmiers wrote:
         | I don't think tagging people as ex 8200 is very helpful. Israel
         | has mandatory military service and at this point if you have
         | aptitude or are in a high school computer club in Tel Aviv or a
         | few other places, you probably end up in 8200 for your service.
         | For that matter, half the people who say there were in 8200
         | were either 1) listening to telephone calls 2) relegated to
         | writing memos about the data people did hack and get. Of
         | course, there are things one could have done that would raise
         | serious questions. See, e.g., the issues raised for the people
         | we know who worked on DualEC_DRBG.
         | 
         | On the other hand, there are other sketchy things about express
         | VPN.
        
       | nayuki wrote:
       | Interesting how this news juxtaposes with Mullvad VPN's
       | announcement of staying independent.
       | https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2021/9/16/ownership-and-future-m... ;
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28551960
        
         | mbesto wrote:
         | As pointed in the Mullvad thread on HN - their announcement is
         | very likely a marketing move due to the perceived distrust of a
         | new owner.
        
           | 0-_-0 wrote:
           | They are trying to capture the people leaving from Express
           | VPN. There probably was a small exodus when PIA was bought
           | and they learned from it. Meanwhile, I'm a happy PIA customer
           | and just got a new 3 year contract.
        
             | wackro wrote:
             | Your choice is your own, but what made you want to stay
             | with PIA after the takeover?
        
               | fencepost wrote:
               | I let my PIA account expire after the purchase, but
               | there's a reasonable argument for "any shadowy figures
               | siphoning their info aren't in my threat model."
               | 
               | If you're Joe Schmoe who just wants to not get nastygrams
               | over using Popcorn Time or a tweaked Kodi box pulling
               | movies from torrent sites, you may be a lot more
               | concerned about hiding your usage from your ISP than you
               | are from some foreign government that doesn't care about
               | you. For that user, PIA (or ExpressVPN, or NordVPN, or
               | whoever else is out there) may be a perfectly viable
               | option.
        
               | 0-_-0 wrote:
               | I'm not convinced that Kape is a worse owner, the
               | evidence was weak. In addition, they sell privacy. If
               | they stop respecting privacy they go under. If they start
               | storing data they legally have to hand it over when being
               | asked by law enforcement, which would expose that they
               | stored it.
        
               | beambot wrote:
               | > If they start storing data they legally have to hand it
               | over when being asked by law enforcement, which would
               | expose that they stored it.
               | 
               | Not necessarily.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | But we've been shown that _storing_ data is only part of
               | it; if you continue to use the service law enforcement
               | can force them to log _you_.
        
               | CaveTech wrote:
               | This is blind trust, you are relying spotting wrong doing
               | after it happens, at which point you would already be
               | compromised.
        
               | 0-_-0 wrote:
               | Is there any other way?
        
               | throwawaymanbot wrote:
               | >> they sell privacy<< Lol theyll sell YOURs more like.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | chrisco255 wrote:
       | While we're on the subject, are there any alternative VPNs people
       | recommend?
        
         | gazby wrote:
         | Mullvad tends to be the highest recommended VPN provider.
         | 
         | https://mullvad.net/
        
         | Cribbin wrote:
         | For most use-cases I can't really see any reason not to go with
         | Mullvad: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28551960
         | 
         | https://mullvad.net
        
         | TedDoesntTalk wrote:
         | FoxyProxy
        
         | LeoPanthera wrote:
         | I'm saddened to see that "thatoneprivacysite", once a
         | comprehensive database of VPNs and their policies, now
         | redirects to some scammy-looking "review" site that that pimps
         | ExpressVPN right at the top of the front page.
         | 
         | A shame.
         | 
         | It looks like the next-best guide that hasn't been corrupted by
         | referral money is privacytools.io, which currently recommends
         | Mullvad, ProtonVPN, and IVPN.
         | https://www.privacytools.io/providers/vpn/
        
         | yegor wrote:
         | Shameless self promotion:
         | https://blog.windscribe.com/consolidation-of-the-vpn-industr...
        
           | approxim8ion wrote:
           | Love Windscribe. At a time when I wasn't able to afford a
           | subscription, they were one of the very few services with a
           | free plan that didn't look shady.
           | 
           | I have since been a happy paying customer and also
           | recommended it to a couple of my friends.
        
         | schleck8 wrote:
         | IVPN and Mullvad have a good reputation
        
         | DaiPlusPlus wrote:
         | OpenVPN running off your own NAS. Why would you use anything
         | else?
         | 
         | (Except for getting around geo-blocking, of course)
        
           | seabrookmx wrote:
           | Pretty sure a large chunk of these VPN users are just using
           | it to avoid DMCA notices when torrenting. Rolling your own
           | VPN doesn't get you around this.
        
           | Fnoord wrote:
           | Wireguard, better throughput and latency. Mullvad accepts
           | Wireguard, btw.
        
           | nirvdrum wrote:
           | My NAS runs in my house. While I do have a VPN to connect
           | when away, I don't particularly care for my ISP seeing all my
           | traffic or being tracked by the entire web. I use Mullvad to
           | try to achieve some semblance of privacy.
        
             | DaiPlusPlus wrote:
             | > I don't particularly care for my ISP seeing all my
             | traffic or being tracked by the entire web. I use Mullvad
             | to try to achieve some semblance of privacy.
             | 
             | But VPNs don't enhance your privacy though - you're trading
             | your ISP's snopping for your VPN operator's snooping - and
             | TLS makes it all irrelevant.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | mrkramer wrote:
       | VPN service is worth $1bn?! I'm not sure about that. They must
       | have a lot of users then.
        
         | superflit wrote:
         | there is something more going on.
         | 
         | So much change in recent times.
        
         | judge2020 wrote:
         | A lot of users and in-video sponsor spots that will never go
         | away (YouTubers can edit them out using YT Studio but the
         | sponsorship contract might impose restrictions on if/when they
         | can remove it).
        
       | robertlagrant wrote:
       | They'd better keep the name, or that's a lot of Youtube videos
       | that will need rerecording.
        
         | LeifCarrotson wrote:
         | That's really all they're buying, right? The advertising
         | budget, the name recognition, and the existing user contracts
         | are the important things.
         | 
         | The software isn't anything special, and the hardware and
         | network connections to actually run the VPN are probably a very
         | small part of their margins - certainly not worth nearly 1
         | billion dollars.
        
           | kurthr wrote:
           | Actually, it was one of the few VPNs that regularly worked to
           | connect past the firewall in more rural China (outside
           | Beijing/Shanghai/Shenzhen). Don't personally know (or have as
           | much interest) about the state of things now.
        
             | kaesar14 wrote:
             | Is it easier to get past the firewall in super urban China?
             | Why is that?
        
               | tyingq wrote:
               | The much heavier traffic and variety of traffic in urban
               | areas probably means looser rules. Even if just to reduce
               | the noise for the great firewall admins.
        
               | azinman2 wrote:
               | It's not about heavier traffic. China literally has
               | different rules for different parts of the country,
               | different ISPs, different wireless providers (especially
               | foreign versus domestic), etc.
        
               | tyingq wrote:
               | That doesn't mean that "volume/variety" isn't also a
               | driver for different rules.
        
               | azinman2 wrote:
               | Where do you get that from, and what would be the
               | technical basis?
        
               | tyingq wrote:
               | >what would be the technical basis?
               | 
               | Just the sort of thing you see in the real world. It's
               | much easier to lock down access for a network with less
               | people using it.
               | 
               | A network with more people starts to find all the edge
               | cases where your lock-down rules break legitimate things,
               | which results in calls to your boss from people with the
               | clout to make you change stuff.
               | 
               | Similar for reporting, alerting, etc. Volume and variety
               | of traffic can force you to be more lenient in larger
               | networks. Or lose any real effectiveness because your
               | signal/noise ratio is now bad.
        
               | kube-system wrote:
               | Pure speculation, but I would guess that it may make
               | practical sense for the party to relax the firewall in
               | places where access to internet resources abroad could be
               | more necessary for economic reasons.
        
               | wyager wrote:
               | I always had a hard time getting past the GFWoC in
               | Shenzhen, even with wg tunnels to my own servers.
        
               | kurthr wrote:
               | I don't remember the specifics, but there were a lot of
               | different packet types (eg UDP not just TCP) and
               | protocols that ExpressVPN used to negotiate and transfer
               | data. I'm sure there was quite a bit of cat-mouse, but I
               | also assumed that there might be a symbiotic (or more)
               | connection between Chinese security and ExpressVPN. I
               | just wanted things to work, and didn't care so much about
               | the actual "privacy" of the tunnel.
        
               | blablablub wrote:
               | With wg sending keep alive packets every 30 seconds it is
               | one of the easiest protocols to block. Quite surprised
               | you got any connection at all.
        
           | robertlagrant wrote:
           | Yes, I think so. It's a large sales and marketing company
           | which happens to rent VPN :)
        
           | fierro wrote:
           | these are valid questions to ask but I'd be wary of falling
           | into this _very common_ trap that I see on HN, which is
           | dismissing the sophistication of a product based on, well,
           | nothing really. Given that another company was willing to pay
           | $1b, and given that this is a free market, do you think it 's
           | more likely that ExpressVPN was simple and "not special", or
           | that there is actually some substance there?
        
             | qeternity wrote:
             | It's a bit like saying "but getting to the moon is just a
             | bit of metal and fuel".
             | 
             | Execution is everything. And there are no guarantees when
             | it comes to execution. That's what the cost of acquiring an
             | otherwise "simple" business is: the cost to guarantee
             | successful execution of a business/product plan.
        
             | saurik wrote:
             | Let's presume you are correct; is they idea that they are
             | then special in a way that PIA isn't? This is just like
             | when your local supermarket gets purchased by a company
             | that owns other nearby supermarkets to be folded into their
             | brand: they want the location and the customers that visit
             | it, not some interesting innovation they heard you have
             | been hiding for how to run your supply chain.
        
             | LeifCarrotson wrote:
             | I think that's a false dichotomy.
             | 
             | You're suggesting that either ExpressVPN was a really good
             | business with sophisticated secret sauce, strong technical
             | chops, and capital assets probably worth $1B (validated by
             | people with lots of money being willing to pay for it), or
             | that I and other HN commenters are wrong about the
             | sophistication and it's really worth peanuts because
             | OpenVPN can be run on most routers or any Linux box.
             | 
             | The latter is obviously false, but the former is not
             | necessarily true - instead, what I and other users are
             | pointing out is that they're really selling is their users,
             | and implying that the buyer expects to be able to extract
             | more than $1,000,000,000.00 of value from them. As you
             | pointed out, you see this sort of comment when a social
             | network or many other kinds of startups with lots of users
             | are sold.
             | 
             | The point is that the users are the product in this
             | transaction.
        
       | ionwake wrote:
       | For this much money they are after the data right? Or am I being
       | too overly dramatic
        
         | fuj wrote:
         | It says it will double their customer base to 6M. Considering
         | ExpressVPN's subscription is $100/y, we're looking at around
         | +$300M/y revenue. I really doubt selling data is worth more
         | than that or even worth jeopardising that revenue.
        
         | ve55 wrote:
         | I'd hope not, but I don't think it's a necessary conclusion.
         | Most subscribers to VPN companies pay $5 or more a month and
         | use almost zero bandwidth (basically just opening Facebook and
         | Twitter here and there), and so it's easy to throw literally
         | thousands of them onto a single high-throughput dedi. The ones
         | with good marketing are very high-margin companies with a high
         | LTV.
        
         | superflit2 wrote:
         | Maybe not only "data" but ""meta-data"" that is more important.
        
         | Closi wrote:
         | Eh, their revenue was $279 million, and profits at $75m. Growth
         | at 30% p.a. so it really depends how long-term their investment
         | outlook is and how much they believe growth will continue.
         | 
         | Particularly considering they own multiple VPN providers, so
         | can probably squeeze overheads to increase margins, and also
         | that much market control might allow you to increase prices
         | across all brands you own due to reduced competition (as long
         | as you don't tell anyone that's what you are doing - naughty
         | naughty).
         | 
         | Of course foreign governments are already at the heart of all
         | these VPN providers anyway.
        
           | cptaj wrote:
           | With the rise of dictatorships worldwide and the complete
           | inability of liberal democracies to fight back, I would guess
           | there's a lot of growth in this market
        
       | m00dy wrote:
       | Kape technology? sounds like another shell company from NSA
        
       | krono wrote:
       | This is like your kids' daycare being taken over by the local
       | pastor who, not long ago, was caught in the act with minors under
       | his care (and since promised to do better - with nothing much to
       | show for it).
        
       | jstummbillig wrote:
       | I am so very confused with the recent ubiquity of VPN. I
       | understand VPN. What happened that everyone needs or is at least
       | being convinced they need VPN? Why has it become a product worth
       | being marketed to consumers on every channel? Is this a bubble?
       | Is it a money laundering scheme? Seriously, what is going on?
        
         | ElectronShak wrote:
         | Accessing geo-restricted content is probably one of the
         | reasons. A lot of VPN services use this line while advertising.
        
           | Hamuko wrote:
           | Accessing geo-restricted content is a minority of the VPN
           | advertising that I come across. Most of the VPN marketing I
           | see is a combination of "security and privacy", "online
           | banking", "hackers", "private data", "snooping ISPs".
        
             | Philip-J-Fry wrote:
             | They won't advertise that they can access geo-restricted
             | content like Netflix because Netflix is constantly cracking
             | down on VPN providers and blacklisting IPs. But it's
             | definitely one of the bigger use cases.
        
             | btkramer9 wrote:
             | I've always thought it was like a smoke shop. They say
             | their products are for tobacco but everyone knows what its
             | really for. Same with VPN, they say it's for all those
             | things above but accessing geo-restricted content seems
             | like the real reason.
        
               | Hamuko wrote:
               | Well, if I see a list of "good privacy-focused VPNs" on
               | like TorrentFreak, then I'm pretty sure that they mean
               | "these VPNs are good to route your torrent traffic
               | through". But I do actually doubt that people watching a
               | video on YouTube are going to get the "watch Japanese
               | Netflix on ButtVPN" subtext when the advertising blurp is
               | "ButtVPN protects your online banking against hackers".
               | It's not like it's actually illegally to promote a VPN
               | for bypassing geoblocking, so if that was the main driver
               | of customers, they'd really use it a lot more often.
        
               | input_sh wrote:
               | They can't promise that because companies like Netflix
               | constantly blacklist their IPs. They can make a general
               | statement like "view geolocked content", but being
               | specific and then not delivering will lead to a lot of
               | resentment from new users.
               | 
               | Well it's either that or make every user an endpoint to
               | go around the IP blacklist like that one provider did,
               | but I can't remember which one.
        
         | Philip-J-Fry wrote:
         | Bypassing country firewalls. Accessing Netflix content from
         | other countries. Protecting yourself when torrenting.
         | 
         | It's also sold using the same scare tactics that Anti-Virus is
         | sold. By making people think their connections are insecure
         | unless they use a VPN. So it pulls in a lot of the less tech
         | savvy people who will most likely just use it for Netflix and
         | further encrypting their traffic.
         | 
         | I don't think it's a bubble because countries are trying to
         | implement all these weird laws and monitor the internet more
         | and more. The UK for example wanted to introduce identity
         | checks for consuming Porn. They can't do that when you can VPN
         | to some other country.
        
           | mbesto wrote:
           | > Accessing Netflix content from other countries.
           | 
           | Are there any VPN services that actually do this? AFAIK all
           | of them get blocked (i.e. they are known IPs). I've even
           | tried to spin up a Digital Ocean server to route my traffic
           | and Netflix blocked it.
        
             | penagwin wrote:
             | Yes! However it gets a bit complex, as they're using dns
             | based geofencing so there's some extra steps.
        
               | mbesto wrote:
               | Can you expand? Which VPN allows you to get Netflix to
               | another geolocation.
        
         | ccn0p wrote:
         | It seems to me that, at least speaking for the US, there is a
         | massive demographic that is becoming increasingly skeptical and
         | weary of "big tech", and VPN companies have targeted this
         | demographic with panacea solutions to stop big tech's ability
         | to track you, etc etc. ExpressVPN has been all over the air
         | waves in conservative radio.
         | 
         | Although I don't mind people practicing safe hygiene, little do
         | they know a VPN has very little to do with big techs ability to
         | actually vacuum up data about them.
        
           | ccn0p wrote:
           | also... the VPN seems to be the modern day antivirus of
           | personal security.
        
         | sophacles wrote:
         | I set my DNS to 8.8.8.8 and 1.1.1.1.
         | 
         | When nxdomains resulted in me landing on some page from my ISP,
         | I started using a VPN. I'm perfectly fine with my ISP snooping
         | my traffic IFF all they get is gibberish.
        
         | nlitened wrote:
         | For someone living in Russia, having a VPN is essential for
         | browsing if you want uninterrupted access to all international
         | websites at full speed.
         | 
         | And I think that number of countries with internet restrictions
         | is growing, not shrinking.
        
         | switch007 wrote:
         | Where to begin. I don't trust my ISP not to interfere with my
         | packets. In the UK, things like google and imgur get proxied
         | through a centralised filtering engine, ISPs hijack your dns,
         | throttle your traffic based on your activity, blacklist sites
         | using DNS. Who knows what they'll record for the government and
         | the retroactive laws they may pass?
        
         | vmception wrote:
         | Since GDPR in 2018, simply reading the news requires a VPN.
         | 
         | Many other benign aspects of life need it too, if the same
         | conveniences are desired with no adjustment.
         | 
         | It's nice if you haven't noticed.
        
         | InvaderFizz wrote:
         | There are quite a few overlapping targets for VPNs: - People
         | that use Torrents - People that travel (geo-restricted content,
         | country level blocking of services/sites) - Local firewalls
         | that block things for no good reason. - People that think a VPN
         | keeps them safe from "bad guys".
         | 
         | I recently engaged in some infrastructure consulting work for a
         | small startup(10 people). They're 100% distributed, no office,
         | everything operates out of Google Drive, Docs, and Gmail.
         | 
         | One of the first questions they asked was if they need a VPN to
         | keep their corporate communications and file transfers secure.
        
       | jcadam wrote:
       | Didn't know this. And I'm an expressvpn user. Anyone know of any
       | good alternatives?
        
         | smiley1437 wrote:
         | Mullvad
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | forgithubs wrote:
       | If that would happen to my VPN service, I would disconnect in a
       | heartbeat.
        
       | qwertyuiop_ wrote:
       | Signal is a Qinetq front
        
       | boramalper wrote:
       | Also:
       | 
       | > ExpressVPN says in a statement that it knew the 'key facts' of
       | the employment history of one of its executives, Daniel Gericke.
       | On Tuesday Gericke was revealed in court records to have worked
       | on the UAE's hacking and spying operation
       | 
       | > https://www.vice.com/en/article/3aq9p5/expressvpn-uae-hackin...
       | 
       | https://nitter.net/josephfcox/status/1438127822883729412
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | 0-_-0 wrote:
         | "Daniel has a deep understanding of the tools and techniques
         | used by the adversaries we aim to protect users against, and as
         | such is a uniquely qualified expert to advise on defense
         | against such threats. Our product and infrastructure have
         | already benefited from that understanding in better securing
         | user data,"
        
           | penagwin wrote:
           | Yeah it's a tricky one isn't it? On one hand many of the best
           | security researches are ex-state employees, and many of them
           | go from that into the private sector. On the other hand it
           | makes it sound like they are friendly with potential
           | adversaries.
        
             | boramalper wrote:
             | People are also against to see an ex-spy employed by a
             | company that promises (to some degree) to protect their
             | customers from the abuses of such governments--there is
             | also a moral angle to it. "Daniel has a deep understanding
             | of the tools and techniques used by the adversaries"
             | because, well, he was one of the adversaries. It's like a
             | private security company employing a former criminal.
        
               | mindcrime wrote:
               | _It 's like a private security company employing a former
               | criminal._
               | 
               | I mean... would you hire Kevin Mitnick's company? Lots of
               | people do (apparently, considering they've been in
               | business this long), but yet he's a former "criminal". It
               | really is a tricky analysis. Who knows hackers better
               | than a former hacker? But how can you trust a "former"
               | hacker? Hmm...
        
               | boramalper wrote:
               | I agree that the analysis is tricker though I disagree
               | that Kevin Mitnick is an appropriate example--Mitnick is
               | quite innocent in the scale of what Gericke's employer
               | (Signals Intelligence Agency [SIA]) has done[0][1], even
               | if we were to exaggerate Mitnick's crimes.
               | 
               | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ToTok_(app)#Surveillanc
               | e_tool_...
               | 
               | [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
               | report/usa-spyi...
        
               | mindcrime wrote:
               | That's the reason for the quotes around "criminal" above.
               | Mitnick turning "white hat" just happened to be the first
               | (roughly) analogous example that popped to mind.
        
             | duped wrote:
             | I feel like the threat model for consumer VPNs doesn't
             | include state actors
        
               | croshan wrote:
               | You don't? I don't think activists only use TOR, I'd
               | imagine they layer a VPN on as well, they're not mutually
               | exclusive.
        
               | fragmede wrote:
               | The threat model for "I want to watch Netflix in a
               | different country than the one I'm in" is totally
               | different from "I'm Edward Snowden and the CIA wants my
               | ass". Consumer-grade VPNs protect against the first
               | "threat" alright, but it's a totally different ball game
               | to protect against an APT like the NSA/CIA, who will
               | break into your VPN company's office in the middle of the
               | night and replace all of the computer keyboards with
               | exact replicas that have a keyloggers inside in order to
               | get access to your data.
               | 
               | See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25914734
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | KoftaBob wrote:
       | I'm noticing a trend here:
       | 
       | 1. NSO Group aka the "use our tool to hack activists/political
       | opponents"-as-a-service company, is founded by *former members of
       | Israeli intelligence and their Unit 8200*.
       | 
       | 2. Kape Technologies, whose software is labeled as malware by
       | companies such as Malwarebytes and Symantec, founded by *former
       | members of Israeli intelligence Unit 8200*
       | 
       | 3. Black Cube, the spy-for-hire company that the likes of Harvey
       | Weinstein hired to collect dirt on those suing him: founded by
       | *former members of Israeli intelligence Unit 8200*
       | 
       | Needless to say, it's looking like using HolaVPN, an Israeli P2P
       | VPN (founded by, you guessed it, *former members of Israeli
       | intelligence*), is a colossally bad idea.
       | 
       | I'm fully aware that Unit 8200 alumni are very prolific when it
       | comes to founding tech startups in Israel in general, but that
       | doesn't change how brazen their industry is when it comes to
       | selling sophisticated spyware to very bad people/governments.
        
         | belter wrote:
         | Here is another trend/hint...go to LinkedIn and search, how
         | many ex-Unit 8200 now work doing Software Development at
         | ...Apple.
        
       | flixic wrote:
       | Looks like we have a VPN duopoly forming:
       | 
       | - Kape with Cyberghost, PIA and ExpressVPN
       | 
       | - Tesonet with NordVPN, and allegedly a couple more most known,
       | but there is no strong proof, so I'd rather not list them here.
        
         | majani wrote:
         | Hidemyass was the only one that has nodes in all the countries
         | the entire world last time I checked
        
       | blablablub wrote:
       | Nice. The NSA has to spend billions to wiretap the internet and
       | fish for valuable data. Kape only spends 1B and has probably a
       | much higher percentage of traffic they are interested in. And the
       | best thing is the users are actually paying them...
        
       | NautilusWave wrote:
       | So what VPNs does Kape own now, besides ExpressVPN and PIA? The
       | article stub mentions a buying spree but the full article seems
       | down.
        
         | rocky1138 wrote:
         | Mullvad is great. No conflicts of interest, just a happy user.
        
         | NiekvdMaas wrote:
         | Cyberghost was their first VPN service
        
         | schleck8 wrote:
         | - Cyberghost
         | 
         | - PIA
         | 
         | - ZenMate
         | 
         | - ExpressVPN
         | 
         | And unless I interpret the article incorrectly, they bought all
         | of these over the last 3 years.
         | 
         | They also bought VPN review sites (affiliate marketers as I
         | prefer to call them) and changed the rankings, according to
         | this article:
         | 
         | https://restoreprivacy.com/kape-technologies-owns-expressvpn...
        
           | NautilusWave wrote:
           | Conflict of interest is a totally legit business strategy!
        
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