[HN Gopher] Tesla FSD Beta 10 veers into pedestrians with illega...
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Tesla FSD Beta 10 veers into pedestrians with illegal right turn
Author : jeffbee
Score : 52 points
Date : 2021-09-15 22:07 UTC (55 minutes ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| obilgic wrote:
| Misleading/Exaggerated HN title. Not an illegal turn. No turn
| sign applies to the left lane, and it's a one way street
| bagels wrote:
| Agree, it didn't hit anything, even though it might've without
| intervention. "into" is the misleading part.
| gpm wrote:
| Right, and it didn't "veer" either, it performed a normal
| turn.
|
| The pedestrians had just started crossing, so it was in the
| wrong, but _barely_. It 's the sort of manoeuvre that you see
| human drivers do all the time.
| awsthro00945 wrote:
| The entire talking point of FSD is that it's supposed to be
| _better_ than human drivers. This ain 't it.
|
| >it didn't "veer" either, it performed a normal turn.
|
| The definition of veer is "to change direction". This did
| that. Stop arguing semantics.
|
| >The pedestrians had just started crossing
|
| I fail to see how this matters at all. Even if the
| pedestrians hadn't started crossing yet, and were still on
| the sidewalk, it would have been wrong for the Tesla to
| make the turn without yielding to the peds.
| howinteresting wrote:
| The Twitter user is located in MA, and the driver handbook
| says (https://www.mass.gov/doc/drivers-manual/download,
| page 85):
|
| "You must yield to pedestrians entering or using a
| crosswalk in your travel path."
|
| At least one pedestrian was unambiguously "using a
| crosswalk" in the car's travel path, and the other one was
| entering the crosswalk as well. I wouldn't consider this a
| marginal case.
|
| I think Teslas are otherwise great cars but I would never
| use FSD in a million years. I think it should be banned on
| public streets until it's gone through testing that is far
| more rigorous.
| loeg wrote:
| The video is from Seattle, but the same yield-to-
| pedestrians-in-crosswalks applies here, too.
| trangus_1985 wrote:
| > so it was in the wrong, but barely
|
| when it comes to hitting pedestrians, i dont think you can
| shade that in terms of "barely". either it is or isnt
| notJim wrote:
| If you look at the blue track on the screen, the car is
| indicating it's going to go straight, not that it plans to
| turn right. I think the word veer is applicable because it
| is sudden and unexpected. If this was only a mistimed right
| turn, I might feel differently.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _Not an illegal turn._
|
| https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
|
| California Vehicle Code section 22108: Any signal of intention
| to turn right or left shall be given continuously during the
| last 100 feet traveled by the vehicle before turning.
|
| Every other state has similar laws. I've included the one for
| Washington state below for nitpickers.
|
| The Tesla was not signaling before or during that turn. That on
| its own makes the turn illegal.
| obilgic wrote:
| I don't think that is California though..
| eightysixfour wrote:
| Yes, that's Seattle.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| You're right! Someone else says it's Seattle, so let's
| see...
|
| https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.305
|
| RCWs > Title 46 > Chapter 46.61 > Section 46.61.305
|
| (1) No person shall turn a vehicle or move right or left
| upon a roadway unless and until such movement can be made
| with reasonable safety nor without giving an appropriate
| signal in the manner hereinafter provided.
|
| (2) A signal of intention to turn or move right or left
| when required shall be given continuously during not less
| than the last one hundred feet traveled by the vehicle
| before turning.
|
| Do we think that every state in the US doesn't have a
| similar law?
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| This is pedantic. Human drivers routinely don't use their
| turn signals.
| stefan_ wrote:
| What is the end-game here? What do you possibly want to
| argue? The car was perfectly aware it was making a turn,
| but decided to not use the turn signal because.. peer
| pressure?
|
| It's baffling.
| gruez wrote:
| Isn't that just "failing to signal a turn"? If you told me
| someone made an "illegal turn", I'd think they made right on
| a intersection with a non right turn sign.
| loeg wrote:
| > California Vehicle Code
|
| This is Seattle, under the monorail (5th Ave).
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| You're right and I noted the section of the washington
| state driving code that applies. I'm pretty sure that every
| state in the US has a variant of this same law and picking
| the wrong one doesn't matter for the purposes of this
| thread.
| loeg wrote:
| Sure, but it's weird to bring up CA vehicle law,
| _specifically_ , when it's completely irrelevant. You
| could have made the broader point without the irrelevant
| detail.
| [deleted]
| gallerdude wrote:
| I don't know how the UX works, but it seems like it de-activated
| itself when it got closer to the pedestrians? Or was that a
| manual override?
| bagels wrote:
| If you hit brakes or steer, it disengages.
| awsthro00945 wrote:
| The video in the Tweet replies is even worse, IMO:
| https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1437743602579423233
|
| The Tesla FSD would've caused a t-bone in the first two clips,
| and a head-on collision at decent speed in the third clip. Yikes.
| bagels wrote:
| How long can they get away with charging 10k for something that
| is trying to crash the car in to bits?
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Shitty sudden turn against the no-turn sign without using a turn
| signal aside, why was it turning right at all when the route
| showed it going straight for another several blocks and then
| turning left?
| GravitasFailure wrote:
| I've dealt with similar but less extreme behavior in lane
| keeping systems where it senses the right-side reference
| veering away so it "corrects" and follows, causing a veer to
| the right, so it might not have been trying to turn but instead
| drive next to the crosswalk at the same distance it was from
| the curb. Regardless of what happened, that's a really bad bug
| to have.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| Aliabid94 wrote:
| If you have to anxiously hover your hands over the wheel
| constantly like the driver is in this video, is it really helpful
| even if it doesn't crash? I don't own a Tesla, curious how other
| drivers are when on Autopilot.
| notJim wrote:
| This is the city-driving beta that's only available to a small
| number of people. I have read that at this point, it is more
| stressful than driving yourself, but it is not yet at the point
| where anything more is expected.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Test driving a Tesla Model 3 with autopilot last year was one
| of the most stressful experiences I've ever had. It's not at
| all intuitive, and I had no idea what autopilot would/wouldn't
| handle.
| aclatuts wrote:
| It might be worth it for Tesla to build a voice system to
| tell the driver what manoeuvres the car will be doing soon.
|
| Although implementing might be just as hard as self driving
| in the first place.
| yakkityyak wrote:
| The cognitive load of using FSD in a city honestly seems more
| than driving yourself. The car is no longer an extension of
| yourself, where you navigate the road carefully. Instead you
| are constantly trying to predict and determine if FSD is going
| to screw up, and how to quickly react to said screw up.
| bfung wrote:
| Recently got a Tesla without Full Self Driving (FSD) for many
| reasons (it's $10k for a full install as one). Autopilot is now
| like a product name that has several features and FSD is a
| different beast. Within Autopilot, there's an Autosteer (Beta)
| feature.
|
| The Autosteer seems to work decently well on highway without
| hover hands, but it does require no sharp turns and any traffic
| or stop and go isn't what it was built for. I can def. see it
| nice when doing longer road trips.
|
| That said, I've turned Autosteer on several times and maybe 70%
| comfortable with it. It does like to hug the right side of a
| lane, and when I'm in the very right lane on the freeway with
| on-ramps and exits, there have been times I didn't want to take
| any chances and assumed full control of steering, or else it
| drifts into the exit lane and gets back into the right lane,
| depending on the road lines and how they're drawn. This is with
| me having knowledge of how computer vision works - I wonder how
| anyone w/o tech knowledge can put their full trust into these
| things or to manage the situations correctly.
|
| So even w/o the full FSD feature, I think there's still some
| work to do on the Autopilot autosteer (it could be a subset of
| FSD, maybe different ML models all together underneath) - and
| city driving FSD probably needs even more work.
|
| https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#capability-features
| [deleted]
| drooby wrote:
| Level 3+ requires AGI for unmapped non-highway roads. Change my
| mind.
| bagels wrote:
| What is agi?
| Aliabid94 wrote:
| Artificial general intelligence, the ability to generalize
| the way humans can.
| ddlutz wrote:
| artificial general intelligence
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Remember this is the build that Elon Musk said was almost ready
| for public release and would "blow your mind",
| https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1435967157662150675?s=20
|
| But there have been plenty of failures, and remember that the
| only people who have the beta are employees who are presumably
| under an NDA, and devoted fans who have publicly said they don't
| want to post the disengagements because critics "take them out of
| context"
|
| Other failures:
|
| https://twitter.com/28delayslater/status/1437866328950517768...
|
| https://twitter.com/BS__Exposed/status/1437367617468129280?s...
|
| https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1437385266046586890?s=...
|
| https://twitter.com/bagguley/status/1437328015789367297?s=20
|
| https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1437405124004089863?s=...
|
| https://twitter.com/BS__Exposed/status/1437043592560791552?s...
|
| https://twitter.com/bagguley/status/1437048381042475008?s=20
|
| https://twitter.com/BS__Exposed/status/1436806907663159299?s...
| bagels wrote:
| Looks like we are pretty close to robotaxi.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| It would be super interesting for Tesla to release context after
| these events, e.g. this is the 628,392,292th right turn this
| year.
| ogwh wrote:
| Why is everyone freaking out over a beta test with a driver at
| the wheel ready to take over immediately? It's a beta test,
| finding bugs is kind of the point.
|
| Or have we truly reached the point now where we expect "stable"
| software to be of the same calibre as beta software so nobody
| makes a distinction between the two?
| woofyman wrote:
| Because it's a 5000 lb weapon and the pedestrians didn't
| consent to the beta.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Because a car is a life critical system and nobody should want
| an automated vehicle, even if controlled by a human, to
| "accidentally" try to run over some humans. I doubt the pilot's
| ability to stop all missteps before an injury.
|
| The car should be _much_ safer before it goes on the road,
| regardless of test status. This was a near miss and should be
| taken extremely seriously by highway safety regulators.
|
| >Or have we truly reached the point now where we expect
| "stable" software to be of the same calibre as beta software so
| nobody makes a distinction between the two?
|
| I expect every vehicle on the road to meet a safety standard. I
| do not accept "beta software" tests on public roads if this is
| the kind of mistake they can make.
| dham wrote:
| I've been using Open Pilot for the last 3 months (Rav4 Hybrid).
| I've really enjoyed it a lot on the highways. It also works
| really well in stop and go traffic.
|
| I'm starting to agree with George Hotz about making driving
| chill. Highway driving is chill. Stop and go traffic is chill.
| There's nothing chill about letting a car drive in these
| situations (pulling out intersections, right hand turn on red,
| congested streets with people everywhere) and I'm very used to my
| car driving itself. There's nothing chill about your car having
| unlimited torque on the steering wheel where it can do something
| gnarly. Making your car do these maneuvers has the opposite
| effect, making you more stressed rather than taking the stress
| away.
|
| I'll stick to open pilot for now. I'd rather just drive in these
| situations. With Tesla FSD you already have to have your hand on
| the wheel, might as well put your foot on the pedals.
| ProAm wrote:
| Which version of Open Pilot?
| dham wrote:
| 0.8.8 in laneless mode. Comma 2. Decided not to return and
| get Comma 3 because 2 does everything I need it to do right
| now.
| improv32 wrote:
| This is in Seattle, on 5th ave. The concrete pillars are the
| monorail track. The street confused me driving as a human
| sometimes. There are more videos of the Tesla software being
| confused on this particular street floating around
| loeg wrote:
| This street slightly confuses me, too, but I've never decided
| to suddenly and without signaling dive into the crosswalk when
| pedestrians were in it.
| modeless wrote:
| I believe that it is not illegal to turn right there. Both
| streets are one way, and the "no right turn" sign is for the
| lanes to the left of the pillars.
|
| For context, these pillars in the middle of the road are handled
| poorly by Tesla FSD and this guy is repeatedly stress testing the
| system by forcing it to drive there, for YouTube videos. The
| latest FSD build is the first one that actually recognizes the
| pillars as obstacles; earlier builds would simply plow into them.
| What I'm speculating happened here is the new obstacle detection
| failed and decided that the road ahead was blocked, so the path
| planner decided it had to turn right despite that not tracking
| the planned route.
|
| As far as the pedestrians, it looks to me like there was plenty
| of space to turn into the near lane without hitting them, and the
| pedestrians shouldn't have been starting to cross while the red
| hand was flashing, but of course a law abiding driver should
| yield in this situation.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| It is illegal to turn right there without signaling though.
| lmilcin wrote:
| "Not perfect".
|
| Yes, killing pedestrians is not perfect.
|
| I mean, seriously. You are too fucking optimistic guys. Go back
| to the drawing board. If your program can do that you are way off
| from the target.
| nodesocket wrote:
| 2021 Model Y Owner. Hard to tell, but it looks like that street
| is a one-way heading right which is legal. However, not yielding
| for pedestrians is no bueno though they were just barely off the
| sidewalk into the street when it turned.
| jdminhbg wrote:
| It's a one-way to the right but there's a no right turn sign on
| the pillar to the left of the street as you approach it. Not
| signed great, but still not a legal turn.
| notJim wrote:
| I think that sign applies to the left lane only. It's to stop
| you from turning right from the left lane. I think turning
| right from the lane the car is in is legal.
| benjaminjackman wrote:
| There is sign on the wire near the traffic light that says no
| turns, not sure if it only applies to the other lane though.
| gpm wrote:
| There's also a sign on this half of the traffic wire that
| looks like it might be saying "yes turns" (low resolution,
| but I can't imagine what the sign says with an arrow pointing
| right other then that)
| Alupis wrote:
| That sign says "One Way". Not "yes turns"... I don't think
| I've ever seen a sign saying that, actually, it's either
| "No Turns" or no sign at all, since by default turns are
| allowed.
| nodesocket wrote:
| Ahhhhh I see the no right turn sign on the pillar. That is
| confusing as there are also one-way signs (with arrows
| pointing to the right) further along.
|
| Moral of the story, do you think most humans would do a
| better job at this intersection than the Tesla did?
| blankobj wrote:
| That sign in the pillar, if I was driving, I would assume
| applied to the other lane on the left side of the pillar. I
| think the intent is to make sure you don't turn left if you
| are in the right lane of the pillar side, and vice versa.
| rocketraman wrote:
| There is a no right turn sign on the post to the left of the
| vehicle just before it begins the turn.
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(page generated 2021-09-15 23:02 UTC)