[HN Gopher] No One Wanted A&W's Third-Pound Burger (2016)
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No One Wanted A&W's Third-Pound Burger (2016)
Author : ZeljkoS
Score : 117 points
Date : 2021-09-14 08:18 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.mentalfloss.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.mentalfloss.com)
| stayfrosty420 wrote:
| weird that people can seem to grok a half pound is bigger though
| syshum wrote:
| Can they? MC'D does the "Double 1/4 Pounder" instead of 1/2
| Pound...
|
| Hardee's does "Monster" and before that " $6 Dollar Burger"
| instead of 1/2 pound
|
| I have seen people use 8 oz in marketing
|
| I have not seen anyone advertise a "1/2 Pounder"
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| The McDonalds's Double Quarter-Pounder is two 1/4 lb patties
| though, and it matches the naming scheme of all of their
| other two-patty burgers.
| moron4hire wrote:
| A double quarter pounder is two quarter pound patties, not
| one half-pound patty.
|
| And no, the sandwiches would not be equivalent. Two quarter
| pound patties cook faster, even serially, than one half
| pounder. Plus, you typically pair each patty with a slice of
| cheese when making cheeseburgers, so the bread/meat/cheese
| ratio is completely different.
| danpalmer wrote:
| I recently called out my bank for advertising a "0.10%" savings
| interest rate, a similar problem I think.
|
| To anyone here it's obvious that this is the same as a "0.1%"
| rate, but I do suspect that to a not-insignificant proportion of
| the population, they'd consider "10 > 1", and conclude that this
| account is better for them than another one offering "0.2%"
| interest.
|
| I realise this might be a stretch, but to look at it another way,
| should a bank be allowed to advertise their savings rate as
| "0.100%" or "0.10000%"?
| aeries wrote:
| In the financial world we think in bps (units of 0.01%), so it
| would be standard to write percentages with 2 decimals so you
| can easily see it's 10bps at a glance.
| frumper wrote:
| I would suggest that this is a similar problem, but for a
| different reason. I'm not choosing a bank because they offer a
| 0.1%, 0.10% or 0.2% savings interest rate. That is pretty
| inconsequential.
| conistonwater wrote:
| This might be Regulation DD, set by the Federal Reserve if
| you're in the US, or something similar if you're elsewhere:
| https://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/caletters/2009/0914...
|
| > _It must round the annual percentage yield, the annual
| percentage yield earned, and the interest rate to the nearest
| one-hundredth of one percentage point (.01%) and express them
| to two decimal places._ (p.17)
|
| Personally, I don't see what the problem would be with 0.10%,
| doesn't seem misleading in the slightest. I also love how the
| regulation is called "Truth in Savings", like how could anybody
| be against it?
| danpalmer wrote:
| The bank is in the UK. I don't know if there's any
| legislation around this communication, but it doesn't seem
| that great even if it's legal.
| noir_lord wrote:
| Probably - iirc FSA regulate that stuff and can be quite
| pernickety about what they'll allow.
| throw_away wrote:
| You're worried about unfair competition with banks
| advertising "0.1%" or "0.2%", but with a _must_ rule like
| this, there wouldn 't be any of those competitors. Anyone
| with the same rate would advertise "0.10%", and anyone who
| wanted to beat would say "0.20%" (or more likely, "0.11%").
| huehehue wrote:
| This sounded silly until I remembered that software versioning
| trips me up just the same.
|
| I always read 1.2.11 as < 1.2.2
| cardiffspaceman wrote:
| Rock climbing's ratings with Yosemite Decimal System have
| 5.10 harder than 5.9 [1]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Decimal_System
| Hamuko wrote:
| I find normal version numbers pretty simple as a software
| developer (general population seemed to be buffled by how
| macOS 10.9 could ever be followed by macOS 10.10) but I
| always get confused when I see Cyberpunk 2077's version
| numbers that go 1.22 - 1.23 - 1.3 - 1.31. It just doesn't
| compute that you go from minor version 23 to minor version 3.
| xcskier56 wrote:
| This is so true. The other day I spent a good 10 minutes
| trying to upgrade a gem to > 2.3 when it was already at 2.11
| kelp wrote:
| For this reason I tend to prefer the way OpenBSD versions
| their releases.
|
| They just did 6.9 and the next one will be 7.0.
|
| But this really only works over long periods of time because
| they only do two releases a year.
|
| It took me a bit to get my head around Linux kernel
| versioning where the 2nd digit just goes up until they feel
| like it's time for a new first digit version.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Yes, but #.#.# is not a valid number/decimal/monetary
| notation. You cannot enter that number into a calculator, and
| I'm not sure you'd even be able to use that as a valid
| numerical value in any programming language.
|
| For anyone getting confused that 0.1 == 0.10, then how is
| that the writer's fault? There are formatting requirements
| that require a significant digit number of places (scientific
| notation as an example). I don't know that actually applies
| to bank marketing material, but it could be a style guide
| type of thing to keep numbers formatted the same. Either way,
| it does not change the value of the number. If you misread
| it, it is not the company's fault. They have provided factual
| information.
| bmitc wrote:
| > If you misread it, it is not the company's fault. They
| have provided factual information.
|
| That's really not a fair argument given advertising and
| marketing theory and schemes.
|
| Who knows about this particular case since we don't know if
| the 0.10% needed to be compared to other rates like 0.08%,
| where the formatting would maybe make more sense. But it's
| not beyond imagination that someone could try to hook a
| customer with numbers. It's done all the time with the
| whole $8.99 thing.
| dylan604 wrote:
| That's funny timing, as I just mentioned the other day on
| here that the $.99 vs $1.00 thing was a marketing tactic.
| However, someone countered that it is a remnant from the
| old days of forcing the clerk to ring out the customer at
| the register to make correct change. This was to help
| avoid the temptation of pocketing the exact dollar
| amount. A pricing practice that has essentially just
| stuck around, and possibly repurposed????
|
| Either way, I've learned basic maths. .1 == .10. I would
| be willing to guess that the average public would not
| think that .10 > .1, and that this whole confusion is
| really only for developers that have started using
| decimal notation in versions where .10 > .1 is true.
| hermitdev wrote:
| As an engineer, the trailing 0 is significant: it
| indicates with what precision it was rounded to. [0.5,
| .15) could become .1, with 1 significant digit, but not
| .10 with 2 significant digits.
|
| Doubtful it matters in this case, but that extra zero can
| convey extra meaning.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| I suppose someone should first study whether or not the average
| person knows the difference between .10% and .1% - or whether
| it has subconscious effects. The problem with the current way
| things work is that the bank likely has done a little research
| or focus groups themselves... and they have no incentive to
| publicize their data in a way that informs people.
| kiawe_fire wrote:
| Oh my!
|
| I've often seen rates given by banks with at least one extra
| digit and wondered why.
|
| It never occurred to me it was a marketing ploy.
| danpalmer wrote:
| I suspect this may be more attributable to ignorance/error
| than to malice/marketing, but it's still not great that no
| one spotted it.
| jawilson2 wrote:
| In finance we use basis points, or bps, which is %/100. This
| isn't unusual.
| paisawalla wrote:
| How did the bank respond? Did they change anything?
| danpalmer wrote:
| "Thank you for bringing this to our attention"
|
| That was maybe a month ago, still the same.
|
| I'm not the most impressed, I found a bug in their iOS app
| that would multiply monetary values by 100 when doing various
| (normal) text editing steps as you input values. I found this
| by nearly transferring PS1000 instead of PS10 to a friend.
| The bug was an honest mistake with `NSNumberFormatter` in the
| iOS SDK, but I feel like a bank can't make "honest mistakes"
| at that sort of level.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| > I realise this might be a stretch, but to look at it another
| way, should a bank be allowed to advertise their savings rate
| as "0.100%" or "0.10000%"?
|
| Yes. Lotteries still exist. What's another tax on the
| mathematically illiterate?
| namelessoracle wrote:
| A&W's third pounder just didnt taste that good, and the fries
| were mediocre things that reminded me of school cafeteria fries.
| When I wanted a bigger burger Wendey's had better offerings, and
| when i wanted a cheaper burger McDonalds had better offerings.
|
| Also the store locations tend to be in not so great spots
| compared to their competitors, and their food offerings aren't
| good enough for me to go out of my way. I've also never seen a
| coupon book for A&W in my mail so that doesnt help.
|
| Cherry to top it all off is the last time i went to one. The root
| beer tasted bad. (pretty sure the machine was running out of
| syrup)
| 8K832d7tNmiQ wrote:
| Alternative archive page, since the site is somehow broken in my
| device, even with add-on disabled:
|
| https://archive.is/fSrs5
| thedrbrian wrote:
| It did some weird redirects on my iPad
| https://i.imgur.com/QUwApxZ.jpg
| causi wrote:
| Yeah, nah. It was about the quality, not the amount. McDonald's
| successfully offered a 1/3 pound burger for over a decade until
| price increases and health culture made it uneconomical.
| system2 wrote:
| Knowing how basic American people want their words to be, just
| call it double-quarter pounder to compete. See, you doubled the
| word, I know it is not exactly double but who cares.
| jonny_eh wrote:
| or "Quarter+ Pounder"
| killion wrote:
| As you scroll down the page the article starts filling your
| browser history. If you scroll all the way down there will be at
| least 12 items in your history with variations of the page title.
| It appears to have something to do with how they populate the
| content below the article.
| mig39 wrote:
| What's always interesting to me is that in Canada, A&W is almost
| "premium" fast food. More expensive than the competition, and
| generally better quality.
|
| They also advertise a lot of "no hormones, grass-fed, cruelty-
| free, local farmers" etc in their advertising. And they were the
| first big company to sell the "Beyond Burger."
|
| Seems really different than the American version.
| ecf wrote:
| I don't know of a single A&W around where I live that isn't an
| addon to a more popular chain like KFC. It almost seems like
| corporate wants it to be an afterthought in America with cheap
| vibes attached to the brand.
|
| Whatever their plan is, as you mentioned the brand doesn't
| resonate well with Americans.
| toolslive wrote:
| There's this famous (in Belgium anyway) meme of a Belgian
| football player that goes "What? 1/3th bonus? that's not enough!
| I want 1/4th!" (Brilliant keeper though)
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| A & W needs to check-in on their franchises.
|
| They have gone down hill in terms of quality, or at least tye one
| near me.
|
| I'm not a fast person food guy, but recently was hungry enough to
| go into my local store.
|
| $6 for a terrible burger. It was lunch so I guess they made a lot
| expecting a rush, but this is the first time I thought about
| returning food.
| smolder wrote:
| Someone opened an A&W in my hometown (in northeastern US) at
| some point and it did terribly and closed. Pardon my highly
| subjective rant, here, but I don't really understand what the
| appeal is supposed to be. It seems like just another fast food
| burger franchise, and one that's gone out of style decades ago.
| It makes me think of root beer, possibly the least interesting
| (but most sugary[0]) soft drink. I don't think third pound
| burgers were their only marketing misstep.
|
| [0] https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-
| content/uploads/sites/30/201...
| rileymat2 wrote:
| There are craft brewers doing terrific things with root beer,
| it is certainly not the least interesting soft drink.
| Geezus_42 wrote:
| No, just the worst tasting...
| smolder wrote:
| Perhaps I should have called out A&W's version
| specifically.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| You're not seriously comparing craft root beer with the
| HFCS-laden crap that comes in a 2-liter plastic bottle, are
| you?
| tylermac1 wrote:
| Apparently there's a drastic difference in the quality of A&W
| between the US and Canada.
|
| From what I've heard A&W in Canada is a top-tier fast food
| chain while it's barely hanging on in the States.
| FractalParadigm wrote:
| Here in Canada I would go so far to argue that A&W is on-par
| with a lot of the 'fancier' burger joints, if not _better_.
| It 's a burger I can't eat while driving because it's so
| juicy it ends up ruining clothes. Their breakfast gives
| diners a run for their money too imo, I can go in and order
| the same kind of breakfast (eggs, home fries, bacon, sausage,
| toast, coffee), all cooked with the same freshness with
| generally the same ingredients, and be sitting down eating
| within 5 minutes, where a diner you might be waiting 5
| minutes for a waitress to bring you coffee and take an order
| for your food to come out ~15-20 minutes later.
|
| If A&W US took a few ideas from their sister company here up
| north, they could seriously find themselves in contention for
| the best fast food in the country
| yissp wrote:
| Yeah I was surprised by the above comment as a Canadian. I'd
| definitely say A&W is one of the better quality fast-food
| chains here.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| Me too! If I'm on a road trip and looking for a fast food
| burger, I'm definitely looking for an A&W. McDonalds,
| Burger King, and Wendy's can barely compete with how good
| the food is at A&W.
|
| Good to know that I shouldn't have the same expectation if
| I try an A&W in the US!
| stewx wrote:
| A&W has the best fast-food burger in Canada, IMO, with the
| Teen Burger.
| hdhjebebeb wrote:
| A&W Canada is kicking ass with plant-based offerings - their
| veggie burger is delicious, and they're in every rest stop on
| the highway so I end up eating at least one every road trip
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| I have fond memories of flirting with the girls who worked at
| the A&W at my local mall, and getting free hotdogs, in the 90s.
| I didn't even realize they still existed let alone sold
| burgers.
| jefftk wrote:
| A&W used two 3oz patties, and when McDonald's gave the "third
| pounder" a try they used one 6oz patty. Both of these are 3/8lb,
| which is 12% more than 1/3lb!
| dtwest wrote:
| Important to note that that is the weight before cooking, a
| frozen patty will lose a lot of water weight in the cooking
| process, so what you end up getting is not a full 6oz.
| jefftk wrote:
| Sure, but that applies equally to the quarter pounder, which
| is 4oz before cookie.
| lmilcin wrote:
| I pretty much think it has nothing to do with americans sucking
| at fractions.
|
| Let's face it. Quarter-pounder sounds way better. What does even
| third-pound mean? When I read the article title I haven't even
| immediately recognized it as meaning one-third of a pound.
|
| I am sure A&W would fare much better if they introduced "bigger
| quarter-pounder".
| drdec wrote:
| But does quarter-pounder really sound better, or is it that
| that has always been the name of a burger for us?
|
| The same way The Beatles has always been the name of a band and
| seems like a great name until you think about it and realize it
| is the same quality pun name as is common to use for hair
| salons.
| racl101 wrote:
| That's some Idiocracy shit right here.
|
| Hollywood writers couldn't make this stuff up.
| S_A_P wrote:
| My last 2 years of high school my parents moved to an affluent
| area where 70% of the kids had a 3.0 or better. I was an
| uninterested student who admittedly didn't try very hard. However
| I did take advanced math in high school. As a result I had to go
| to community college and transfer into my alma mater in college.
| (TAMU) when I got there I met a friend group from a rural border
| town of Texas. Not only did they get academic scholarships they
| were accepted as first year freshman. However they had little to
| no grasp of pre-algebra and especially fractions. All of them
| across the board had no idea how to add/subtract or find LCM.
|
| I don't think these were dumb people. It did open my eyes to the
| difference in education quality in the US. I say all of that to
| say that while anecdotal seems plausible. One very distinct error
| they made was to see a high number denominator as being bigger
| than a lower number denominator.
| mywittyname wrote:
| Math is easy to forget because it often goes unused for years.
| Pre-algebra was likely taught to these people early, maybe at
| the age of 11 or 12. It isn't crazy to think they largely
| forgot about this six years on.
|
| Of course, it doesn't help that mathematics is treated as
| second-class in standardized testing. You can hand-wave away a
| low math score as long as you're avoiding a technical major,
| unlike, say English (assuming America here).
|
| I will admit to having to re-learn how logarithms work nearly
| every time I use them. And each time, it's pretty obvious based
| on the websites I see with instructions that logs are taught to
| like sixth graders.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I was a private tutor for quite some time, largely specializing
| in math. I can tell you with complete sincerity that for _most_
| students who have any math issues, fractions were their first
| stumbling block, and it is typically left unaddressed and
| festering. Going back, addressing the issue, working toward a
| full unconscious mastery, then working forward again was the
| often painful solution.
| h2odragon wrote:
| If you pile more inedible crap on my plate, it's still not a
| bargain. I don't want it in the first place.
|
| The only A&W I ever tried had taken over the old "Sonic"
| location, and the comparison made Sonic positively glow in every
| way. I think they stayed in operation 3 months or so; and they
| were across the street from the town hospital. The hospital had
| better food.
| yarcob wrote:
| Third-pound-burger just doesn't roll off the tongue like
| quarterpounder.
| marstall wrote:
| this explains the "double quarter pounder
| isamuel wrote:
| "Third pounder" is also a bad name. "Quarter pounder" has a
| pleasing rhythm and rhyme to it; "third pounder" doesn't. "Third"
| is also easily scanned as "first, second, third," which "quarter"
| is not.
|
| Should have called it the "pebble pounder" (0.02 stone--sure, it
| doesn't make sense really, but it sounds nice, doesn't it?) Or
| the "fifteen'r" (150 grams is about a third of a pound).
| thom wrote:
| Would "Bigger-Burger" have been too on the nose?
| aclissold wrote:
| "Quarter" has a nice big plosive at the beginning, which
| really gives it an impact. The "th" in third pounder makes it
| sound kind of weak in comparison.
|
| Bigger Burger is great! Aliterates, rhyming, and TWO
| plosives!
| Chris2048 wrote:
| plus pounder?
| mhb wrote:
| Hundred and fifty gramer.
| SamBam wrote:
| "Monster burger," "Megaburger," anything at all, really.
| Nothing's too on the nose in a country that happily ate large
| pieces of fried chicken in place of the bread in the "Double
| Down" sandwich.
|
| I agree with GP that "Third pounder" was a terrible name.
| smolder wrote:
| I think this is probably the best of the alternatives
| proposed in these comments.
| jallen_dot_dev wrote:
| You're suggesting they should have introduced metric units
| (grams) to an American audience or assume they'd recognize
| stone as a measure of weight?
| tejohnso wrote:
| I read it as the third in the series of "pounder" burgers,
| which just left me completely confused. I kept trying to recall
| what the first two "pounder" burgers were, which got in the way
| of thinking of it as a fraction.
|
| I would have preferred "quarter and twelfth", advertised with a
| "I'll take an extra twelfth!" catch phrase :)
| m12k wrote:
| "Quarter pounder" sounds like something eaten by a quarterback.
| "Third pounder" sounds like something eaten by the guy that
| always comes in third place.
| pitspotter2 wrote:
| >always comes in third place.
|
| Yes. 'Third' means 1/3 but also place number three. Whereas
| 'quarter' means 1/4 but not 'forth'.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Forth is not a number, so why would quater or 1/4 ever mean
| 'forth'? Fourth is probably the word you're looking for.
| treesknees wrote:
| >quater
|
| Quater is not a unit (or a word) so why would it ever
| mean 'fourth'? Quarter is probably the word you're
| looking for.
| pitspotter2 wrote:
| I did find an obscure prefix:
|
| https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quater-
| dylan604 wrote:
| One is a typo, the other is using the wrong word.
| djur wrote:
| "Forth" is just as easy a typo for "fourth" as "quater"
| is for "quarter". It's uncharitable to assume someone is
| using the wrong word when it's just as likely that they
| made a typo or misspelled the correct word.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Except that's not what happened if you read the other
| comments
| pitspotter2 wrote:
| Hey, you're correct. I meant 'fourth'. I also have
| problems with the word versions of 12th and 40th! By the
| way, the prefix 'quater-' means _multiply_ by four.
| dylan604 wrote:
| quarter means divide by 4. quadruple means to multiply by
| 4.
| thugthrasher wrote:
| Quater also means multiply by 4. I think they were
| pointing out that in the same post where you were
| criticizing them for what was pretty clearly a typo
| ("forth" instead of "fourth") you also made a typo
| ("quater" instead of "quarter") that changed the meaning.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >Quater also means multiply by 4.
|
| Are you making the same typo or using a new word here?
| Let's get past the typo.
|
| I have never seen the word quarter used to mean multiply
| by 4. If I was told to quarter something, I would divide
| it into fourths. When/where were you taught or come to
| understand that quarter means to multiply. If you quarter
| something, you went from one item to four items. Is that
| your understanding of multiplying? You didn't go to 4
| items though you went to four 1/4 items.
|
| I just have never in my experience seen quarter mean
| multiply by 4. If there's something to be learned, I'm up
| for learning it.
| jenseng wrote:
| Nobody said "quarter" means multiply by 4. They said
| "quater" means multiply by 4, which it essentially does
| [1]. In addition to being a real word, it's also a
| prefix, e.g. "quaternary" means fourth in order.
|
| You made a typo (quater) in correcting someone's else's
| typo (forth). Several people have pointed out the irony
| and have patiently tried to teach you a new word, but you
| seem to keep reading past all of them without
| comprehending -\\_(tsu)_/-
|
| [1] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/quater
| [deleted]
| tokai wrote:
| >sounds like something eaten by a quarterback
|
| More like the quarterbacks boyfriend.
| eigengrau5150 wrote:
| This doesn't deserve the downvotes. Too many nerds taking
| themselves and the internet too damn seriously, I guess.
| ahallock wrote:
| Agree. Third pounder does not exactly roll off the tongue.
| solatic wrote:
| "pebble" sounds small to the American ear.
|
| More likely their product teams would have done better with a
| name that didn't refer to the portion size.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| >More likely their product teams would have done better with
| a name that didn't refer to the portion size.
|
| I propose: The PILE OF MEAT burger
|
| The BIG PILE OF MEAT burger
|
| The REALLY BIG PILE OF MEAT burger
| nemo44x wrote:
| I think it was the motivation behind the "Thick Burger"
| from Carls Jr.
| OneEyedRobot wrote:
| The GIANT PILE OF CHEAP-ASS MEAT BURGER
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| Uch I'm not a vegetarian or some health freak but the
| amount of meat they put in some dishes... It just
| completely overwhelms the taste. And at the risk of
| sounding like an eco warrior terrorist I think meat is
| too cheap if you can put an entire sausage on a EUR7
| pizza. There is an environmental cost that isn't priced
| in- and a health cost too.
| peanut_worm wrote:
| Would you like another EXTRA BIG ASS FRIES
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Totally agree with the approach. Here, but with fewer
| letters.
|
| BURGER
|
| FAT BURGER
|
| BIG FAT BURGER
|
| GINORMOUSLYUGE BIG FAT BURGER
|
| (To encourage association of more letters more meat)
| kthejoker2 wrote:
| You laugh, but Texas already has Big Gas Burger (get it?),
| and yeah, it's 1/3 pound.
| bserge wrote:
| Quarter double pounder, Triple pounder?
| nanis wrote:
| I hadn't heard the phrase "quarter pounder" before I came to
| the U.S. ... Heck we'd had McDonalds for a only a few years. I
| think there may have been at most a handful of locations
| through most of that time.
|
| So, one night, we go to McDonalds and I see "quarter pounder"
| on the menu. It just sounds big ... waaaaayyy bigger than 113
| grams (I have no problems converting among different units).
| But, subconsciously, I had expected something that would take
| some effort to eat.
|
| I don't think I've had another one in the intervening decades.
| m_mueller wrote:
| strange, I find the "Royale" here still the best on their
| menu if it wasn't for the no-gluten options I nowadays prefer
| for digestive reasons. very glad they have those in
| Switzerland btw., their burger quality here is remarkably
| consistent and decent IMO.
| nielsbot wrote:
| "The Royale with Cheese"
| nemo44x wrote:
| What do they call a Big Mac?
| chihuahua wrote:
| Le Big Mac
| nemo44x wrote:
| Le Big Mac! Hahahaha. What do they call a Whopper?
| [deleted]
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > Alfred Taubman, who owned A&W at the time, wrote about the
| confusion in his book Threshold Resistance:
|
| This seems like one of those things that sounds like it is true
| but is just too convenient.
|
| It is really convenient to put out a story about how Americans
| are bad at fractions.
|
| In addition, the story originally came from a book the guy that
| owned A&W wrote. Thus he would have incentive both to create a
| good story and to deflect blame from himself to American
| stupidity.
|
| Finally, Americans use the imperial system with cups, etc and
| there are always a ton of fractions like 1/3, 1/4 in recipes. I
| bet most American households have measuring cups of 1/3 and 1/4
| cup in size and surely know that the 1/3 cup is bigger than the
| 1/4 cup.
|
| For me this story just seems to good to be true and I would take
| it with a huge (1/3 pound) grain of salt.
| jsight wrote:
| Yeah, especially since the study wasn't even seeking to
| determine a size comparison. It sounds like they took some
| random anecdotes from respondents and read the wrong things
| into them.
|
| If you wanted to find out the actual incidence of this
| confusion, you'd want a test structured in a really different
| way from this.
| toyg wrote:
| _> I bet most American households have measuring cups_
|
| You are betting that most Americans _cook often_ and _cook
| using written recipes_. That 's a very bold assumption.
|
| I expect most people who cook a lot just know "how much is
| enough", and people who don't cook a lot, well, they just don't
| cook much if at all. This is compounded by the story being
| about customers of fast-food joints, who likely fall
| disproportionately in the "don't cook at all" camp.
| ghaff wrote:
| >I expect most people who cook a lot just know "how much is
| enough",
|
| It depends on what one is making of course, but most people
| who cook (and, especially, bake) a lot absolutely measure
| things.
| toast0 wrote:
| Baking often requires decent precision, but stovetop
| cooking is more foregiving with ingredient mixes,
| especially if you taste as you go. Some parts of baking are
| kind of like that too, sometimes you know when you've added
| enough flour because of how the dough changes and that may
| not be a specific amount, and you'll know when you've done
| enough mixing or beating when things change, not by a
| specific duration, but other items you do need to be
| specific.
| sixothree wrote:
| Sounds like you're extrapolating his argument. He said most
| Americans have measuring cups. I would agree with this to be
| true. How many people have you met that don't have measuring
| cups?
|
| This article is a distraction from what really happened here
| - insanely bad marketing. Third pounder is a terrible name
| for a burger. It's derivative and implies gluttony.
| toyg wrote:
| _> How many people have you met that don't have measuring
| cups?_
|
| I have measuring cups. Do I actually ever use them? No.
| Would that make me unfamiliar with their size, if I weren't
| decent at math? Probably.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Even outside of the marketing - In the US A&W is
| essentially considered off-brand fast food. They're already
| starting from the position of bad branding, and then using
| an _absolutely_ terrible name for a burger.
| gorpomon wrote:
| Is this is a sad illustration of American's numerical illiteracy?
| Or is this just another argument for doing away with fractions
| and using a decimal system?
|
| This anecdote is a common one to share when the intent is to
| bemoan the intelligence or decline of America, but I am starting
| to think there's more to this story.
|
| Consider a few points:
|
| First off-- being bad at math doesn't mean a general lack of
| intelligence. I've met plenty of college educated, liberal minded
| people who openly say that math is their weakness. I've met
| people with masters degrees who struggle with math. The American
| student loan crisis should be evidence enough that even college
| educated people struggle with math.
|
| Second-- the decision to buy a burger is not one that is often
| carefully measured and considered. It's more of a "do I pull off
| this highway right now to get this burger?" and in that moment,
| you're acting more on instinct that rationality. So in that
| moment yes, 1/3 < 1/4, it's not ideal but our brain makes a lot
| of other more serious fallacies.
|
| Third-- does anyone here really doubt that if you explained to
| those focus groups that 1/3 is larger than 1/4 they still
| wouldn't understand? I don't. I'm sure those focus groups quickly
| did understand, but the conclusion drawn was that unless it was
| explained to the broader public, everyone would make the same
| incorrect initial assumption.
|
| Fourth-- let's just be honest, fractions are confusing. 1/3 > 1/4
| is confusing to read and understand quickly. I still can make
| this mistake from time to time. In the special case of 1/4 vs 1/3
| even text is confusing. "Quarter pounder" just sounds larger than
| "third pounder", "quarter" is a heftier word. If you don't think
| sound informs meaning, why do so many sports cars have "Z" in
| their model name instead of "K"? The only way this would be
| really clear is if McDonalds was calling it a ".25 pounder" and
| then A&W could launch a ".33 pounder"
|
| In my opinion, wielding this anecdote as an example about the sad
| state of anything, people, intelligence, America, etc, is ill-
| informed. If it's unfortunate that American's often confuse
| fractions, it's even more unfortunate that the confusion is
| easily turned into a powerful meme that doesn't stand up to
| scrutiny.
| coffeedan wrote:
| If we're going to do away with fractions, can we also fix time?
| What kind of insanity makes this true?
|
| 12am < 10am < 11 am
| lou1306 wrote:
| It's technically correct, since am=ante meridiem="before
| noon". And midnight, of course, comes before noon. You can
| call it 0am, but then you'd have to call noon 0pm which is
| weird. Plus, remember most analog watches in the world have a
| big "12" on top.
|
| The obvious fix would be switching to 24hr.
| esrauch wrote:
| There's no reason you have to kill the 12. It would work to
| just have 1:00 be the first hour of the day, have the day
| be 1:00-12:59am followed by the same as pm. 1:00pm is
| "meridiem". No change to analog watches.
|
| Obviously there's zero chance of switching to that at this
| point from a pragmatic point of view but it does just work
| out fine.
| ghaff wrote:
| Given an AM/PM 12 hour system, unless it's obvious from
| context, the best thing is usually to write noon or
| midnight. 12am and 12pm in isolation can absolutely be
| confused. Even if I know the convention, I don't know if
| the person writing 12am does.
| midasuni wrote:
| What does am mean?
|
| It's currently 1300, an hour ago was 1200, two hours was 1100
| numpad0 wrote:
| Yeah but it's 2021/09/14 21:10 where I am, perfectly big
| endian for me
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| I'm convinced that most people who think they are bad at math
| only think that because math is typically taught in a way that
| makes it seem tedious and useless.
| madmax96 wrote:
| Not only that, but studying math takes discipline,
| commitment, and practice. You can't passively learn math. To
| a certain extent, mathematical illiteracy is encouraged in
| society by the standard trope "I'm bad at math." Almost
| everyone is bad at math. The difference is that some people
| understood math is the best way to precisely understand the
| world and worked to understand it.
| ghaff wrote:
| I think that's more like it. There have been many attempts
| to reform math curricula over the years and you still end
| up with a decent percentage of (at least sometimes
| otherwise intelligent) students who shrug their shoulders,
| grit their teeth, and resign themselves to being "bad at
| math."
|
| Mind you, I also think there are differences in natural
| aptitude and the degree to wich on connects with the
| subject. Speaking for myself, I mostly did well through
| high school math--geometry proofs less so--but mostly just
| got by on the more advanced math I needed for an
| engineering degree.
|
| (Then I tutored a group of students in business school who
| basically handle high school level algebra.)
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| Is this really an American specific issue? Do people not see
| problematic levels of innumeracy in other countries among the
| poor? It's not exactly obvious to observe if you're not waist
| deep in it. If you're in a moderately well off environment the
| idea that someone can't do fractions is pretty absurd.
|
| > This anecdote is a common one to share when the intent is to
| bemoan the intelligence or decline of America, but I am
| starting to think there's more to this story.
|
| No. Absolutely not. The lowest common denominator of
| intelligence should not define our approach to mathematical
| syntax. Fractions are important.
| dwighttk wrote:
| > another argument for doing away with fractions and using a
| decimal system
|
| so what? you are imagining a law that says you must name your
| food in decimals, not fractions? What does "doing away with
| fractions" mean in your imagination?
| jrootabega wrote:
| I think this is more of an entertaining fable than factual and
| analytical.
| smeej wrote:
| I do doubt that people would understand even once it was
| explained.
|
| I've seen way too many people's faces glaze over immediately as
| soon as a number enters the conversation.
| sethammons wrote:
| "Would you rather get 1 for every 3 dollars given away, or 1
| for every 10? 1/3 is more than 1/10."
| dustintrex wrote:
| Should've called it a Royale with Cheese.
| tristor wrote:
| I don't know how many people on HN have even been in an A&W since
| they've been dying for more than a decade and closing franchises,
| but I have. The store wasn't clean, the food was overly greasy
| but not in a good way, and they didn't properly season the fries.
| I'm not really a fan of McDonald's, but one thing I'll give
| McDonald's is that I've rarely been in a store that's dirty, and
| the food is the same whether I'm in downtown NYC or in Tulsa,
| Oklahoma, so I know exactly what I'm going to get, not wondering
| when the last time was that they changed the fry oil or whether
| they ran out of salt.
|
| When it comes to fast food, the order of importance is pretty
| much: 1. Consistent, 2. Fast, 3. Cheap, 4. Quality. A&W tried to
| compete on quality and failed because the quality wasn't there,
| first of all, and because they failed to be consistent, fast, and
| cheap, which are more important. McDonald's is the absolute best
| at #1. In the US, Wendy's is superior to McDonald's for a
| nationwide chain in quality, but the consistency is more
| variable, so McDonald's rules. Burger King is faster and cheaper,
| but the consistency is variable, so McDonald's rules. McDonald's
| understands the ordering of priorities here, and so they win,
| it's that simple.
|
| McDonald's understands that not everyone will like McDonald's but
| that almost nobody finds it outright objectionable and many
| people love it. As long as they keep doing the same thing in
| every single store or franchise across the country, McDonald's is
| always a safe choice for stopping into the drive-thru due to that
| consistency.
|
| A&W failed with the third-pounder because they had bad marketing
| and because they failed to understand the marketplace to achieve
| product-market fit, not because Americans are too dumb to
| understand fractions. I'm sure there's /some people/ who don't
| understand fractions, but the vast majority of people I've met
| understand fractions and use them in their daily life...
| clon wrote:
| > almost nobody finds it outright objectionable
|
| Correction: .. among people that are into eating junk food
|
| I can assure you there are many many people that would not
| touch Mickey-D, nor Wendy's, nor Burger King.
| mark-r wrote:
| I know a guy who hates McDonalds and Burger King, but loves
| Wendy's. There's no universal rule that applies to everybody.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| The burgers aren't really much different from what most
| people would make at home. It's decent quality beef on a
| white-bread bun.
|
| The fries and the sugary drinks are the real junk.
| ghaff wrote:
| I guess I'm not most people. But if I grill a burger, it's
| thicker and juicier, is on a better bun of some sort, and I
| actually like it. Not that I've eaten one in years but fast
| food burgers are pretty awful in my opinion generally. (The
| higher end fast casual places, on the other hand, I quite
| like now and then--usually when traveling.)
| throwawayboise wrote:
| They are, because they have to be cooked to death to
| reduce any chance of food-bourne pathogens. If you took a
| McDonald's quarter pounder beef patty and cooked or
| grilled it at home to medium doneness it would be as good
| as the same thing made with supermarket ground beef.
| wavefunction wrote:
| I worked the grill at McDonalds for a while (admittedly
| two decades ago) and I disagree. They were frozen when
| retrieved for cooking and I just don't think those frozen
| pucks compare to fresher ground chuck hamburgers that
| occasionally I buy at the grocers.
| roothog wrote:
| McD switched to fresh beef for the quarter pounders in
| 2018.
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/13/business/mcdonalds-marion-
| gro...
| jcranberry wrote:
| I've never seen anyone make a 1/10th pound burger patty at
| home.
| philwelch wrote:
| https://www.theonion.com/area-man-constantly-mentioning-
| he-d...
| clon wrote:
| That's actually very witty. I do realise though that eating
| good quality food is not a choice that everyone is free
| make in the US. Not when a decent carrot costs the same as
| a cheeseburger down the road [1]
|
| [1] https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20180222-how-can-
| a-fast...
| j7ake wrote:
| If they cut up the Big Mac into bite sized mini burgers
| skewered by a long toothpick I bet many would be fooled.
| rawling wrote:
| I'm pretty sure I saw that video about a decade ago...
| LanceH wrote:
| Good for you.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> A&W failed with the third-pounder because they had bad
| marketing and because they failed to understand the marketplace
| to achieve product-market fit,
|
| Right.
|
| >> not because Americans are too dumb to understand fractions.
|
| Wrong. They did research and found that to be a significant
| factor.
|
| I'm sure there's /some people/ who don't understand fractions,
| but the vast majority of people I've met understand fractions
| and use them in their daily life...
|
| That's what I thought years ago when I first heard about this,
| but you might need to get out into other parts of the world. I
| see at least 2 kinds of people who will make the mistake 1)
| People with no math ability (these really do exist) and 2)
| People who could easily see the difference if they thought
| about it even a little bit, but 3 vs 4 is smaller at first
| glance and they never bothered to "think" about it. There are a
| lot of the second kind of people too. Advertising doesn't
| usually need people to think, in fact they usually don't want
| you to do that.
| throw8383833jj wrote:
| If you're an engineer, this will surprise you. but, the vast
| majority of people don't know how to normalize data or even
| why you'd do it in the first place. cost of a burger of 1/3
| lbs vs cost of a burger over 1/4 lbs, ( i don't mean to sound
| insulting) but the fact is: that's waaayyyy to much thinking
| for most people (it just doesn't come naturally for people to
| think like that). Personally, I normalize nuritional data on
| a per 2000 calorie basis. I've even had a doctor question
| this, until I explained the concept of normalization. It's
| just not how non engineers/ non scientists are accustomed to
| thinking.
| TillE wrote:
| From the article: "More than half of the participants in the
| Yankelovich focus groups questioned the price of our burger."
|
| They "did research" which found that a handful of people
| didn't understand fractions, in an unusual group social
| setting which can easily amplify oddball beliefs if other
| participants aren't 100% confident.
|
| You can do general polling of a question like this, which
| will give you actual serious data about whether Americans
| understand fractions.
| rdtwo wrote:
| The problem with comparing 1/3 to 1/4 is that it's not
| immediately apparent how much more. I have to do fraction
| math to figure out how much more and really 1/12th more isn't
| exactly meaningful. All of that has to happen in the
| consciousness brain so it's not effective marketing
| feoren wrote:
| But it's not a 1/12th more, it's 1/3 more. 1/3 is 33% more
| than 1/4.
| mb7733 wrote:
| It's a 1/12th of a pound more.
| jcelerier wrote:
| "1/3 to 1/4 is [...] how much more", as is, is ambiguous:
| on some cultures, "how much more" may depend on the local
| field of reference (1/3), and on others on the global one
| (1)
| 6nf wrote:
| Even HN people struggle with fractions evidently!
| foofoo55 wrote:
| A&W should have just called it the "Quarter-plus
| pounder".
| noir_lord wrote:
| It's been my observation that most of the time most people
| simply don't think.
|
| I'm not super smart (nor do I in anyway claim to be) but
| people often consider me to be smart when really it's all
| down to two things, I think about things other people don't
| consider and I have endless curiosity about almost
| everything, I'm an eternal 5 year old constantly asking
| _why_.
| yissp wrote:
| A similar thing to 2) is probably the reason seemingly every
| product is priced $x.99. Everyone is probably aware that's
| basically the same as $(x + 1).00 but when you're on auto-
| pilot maybe you still feel like the former is a meaningfully
| better deal. I mean, it must work given how common the
| practice is.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| There has not been an A&W where I live in decades.
| protomyth wrote:
| The A&W in Albany, MN was well kept last time I was there. Not
| a bad place to stop on a trip down I94.
| ilamont wrote:
| > McDonald's understands that not everyone will like McDonald's
| but that almost nobody finds it outright objectionable and many
| people love it. As long as they keep doing the same thing in
| every single store or franchise across the country, McDonald's
| is always a safe choice for stopping into the drive-thru due to
| that consistency.
|
| This is the same approach taken by mass-market U.S. beers. The
| WSJ had an article about this in 2006:
|
| _Sitting in the wood-paneled "corporate tasting room" of
| Anheuser-Busch Cos.' headquarters here, August Busch III
| surveyed five recently thawed cans of Budweiser beer,
| representing a quarter of a century of beer history. In the
| early 1980s, the Anheuser chairman ordered that freshly brewed
| cans of Budweiser and Bud Light be cryogenically frozen, using
| technology typically employed in preserving human tissue.
|
| "We wanted to make damn sure we would have the same beer 20
| years down the road," said Mr. Busch, 68 years old ... For
| decades, Anheuser's aim was to develop a beer that would sell
| across America, one inoffensive enough to appeal to the
| nation's varied palate._
|
| The article also noted that the references copies showed a
| gradual decline in hoppiness over the years to make the flavor
| more middle of the road and inoffensive ... but niche brewers
| were rising up and about to eat AB's lunch.
|
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114601602889736048
| browningstreet wrote:
| I don't think A&W gets thought of the way McDonald's or In n
| Out or other chains do. It just doesn't have the mindshare.
|
| But the McDonald's where I live are all disasters, and the one
| A&W we had (until recently, when it got replaced by a new VW
| dealership) was really nice, with table service and frosty
| mugs.
| duxup wrote:
| Yeah this is similar to the "Dominoes taking off with new tech"
| articles where they cite growth and some changes.
|
| Really though Dominoes changed their recipe a and it doesn't
| taste like garbage anymore and folks noticed.
|
| I have had similar experiences with A&W franchises being
| inconsistent / dirty stores, etc.
| chasd00 wrote:
| The same holds for the large brewing companies. I toured the
| Budweiser plant in Ft. Collins once, one of the things they
| were very proud of is the fact that no matter where or when you
| buy a Budweiser it tastes like a Budweiser. It's no small
| accomplishment, i can taste the differences between batches
| with the small brewery stuff i like.
| tristor wrote:
| You are so right about AB's consistency. I home-brew and am a
| certified cicerone. One of the absolutely hardest things to
| do in brewing is having consistency from batch to batch. One
| of the things that AB has been able to do to help here is
| develop innovative food chemistry processes to test
| ingredients prior to use and a chemical understanding of all
| the flavor compounds in their product so they can blend
| different brew batches together prior to packaging to achieve
| the same ratios of flavoring compounds. Both of which are
| processes largely unavailable to smaller breweries and home
| brewers.
|
| Consistency in your product is crucial in the food and
| beverage industry, because a buyer needs to know what they're
| getting. If you've already successfully sold them on your
| product, the repeat sale is only going to happen if they can
| be assured they're going to get the same thing they liked the
| first time. Nobody in the industry understands the importance
| of consistency better than Anheuser-Busch. McDonald's is
| right there with them on understanding this. Food and
| beverages are products like anything else, and just like with
| any product, once you achieve product-market fit, it's
| important not to make changes that would eliminate or chip
| away at the fit you have with your customer base.
| leetcrew wrote:
| I'm reminded of the (perhaps apocryphal) story of how
| starbucks overroasts its coffee beans to achieve a
| consistent taste despite having multiple sources for beans
| (necessary due to its scale). the implication being that
| they sacrifice the average quality of the finished product
| to reduce variance.
|
| is there a similar tradeoff in brewing? I do notice fairly
| obvious differences batch-to-batch in microbrews, but I
| would still prefer the worst batches of my favorite local
| beers to any AB product I can think of. are they trading
| away best/average taste for consistency, or is it more a
| function of the price point (microbrews being quite a bit
| more expensive)?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Yeah that's true, the Starbucks "house" beans they use in
| their stores are nearly soot, and the coffee tastes like
| it.
| tristor wrote:
| From what I've seen, the brewers at AB are world-class,
| and they have a very specific and longstanding flavor
| profile they target. I happen to also not be a fan of
| Budweiser, but it's been the same for decades and has a
| very loyal following. They are not brewing to a price
| point, they spend more on process and verification than
| any microbrewery to ensure that consistency, although
| they have introduced the use of adjunct brewing (rice) to
| make the materials cost fit their price point, and they
| were able to do it without changing the resulting product
| taste.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > I'm reminded of the (perhaps apocryphal) story of how
| starbucks overroasts its coffee beans to achieve a
| consistent taste despite having multiple sources for
| beans (necessary due to its scale). the implication being
| that they sacrifice the average quality of the finished
| product to reduce variance.
|
| The version I'd heard was people associate the ashy taste
| and dark roast with higher caffeine, even though it's the
| opposite.
| basseq wrote:
| There's the apocryphal[1] story about the (Trappist?
| Belgian?) brewer-monk who, when asked about his favorite
| beer, answered "Budweiser" because of the consistency over
| millions of gallons.
|
| The linked[1] article below also highlights that "quality
| light beers are incredibly difficult to brew". So here you
| have Budweiser/AB excelling on two fronts: a difficult brew
| and incredible consistency.
|
| [1]
| https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/11/light-
| bee...
| [deleted]
| conductr wrote:
| > The store wasn't clean, the food was overly greasy but not in
| a good way, and they didn't properly season the fries.
|
| When they expanded the "new concept" in Texas, guessing
| 90s-00s, they were often coupled together with a Long John
| Silvers and they obviously shared the same fryer because I
| could taste seafood with the fries. If I order fried seafood
| that's fine I suppose, but not when I'm ordering a burger and
| fries for a meal from A&W which has no seafood (AFAIK). I think
| I tried it twice in total and swore it off. All to say, when it
| comes to consistency, they weren't even trying.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Yeah, I've found A&W to be all over the board in terms of
| quality.
|
| Also, nothing beats whataburger :D. IDK why it's confined to
| the southern states.
| wavefunction wrote:
| Whataburger was recently purchased by a Chicago-based
| private equity firm so you may get your wish for an
| expansion.
| conductr wrote:
| FWIW Shipley Donuts recently got bought by PE too. I
| talked to them as a then potential franchisee and they
| have pretty big growth plans. If you're curious, it
| wasn't right fit for me now that PE is involved. I was
| interested as a casual absentee owner, but their growth
| plan doesn't really have much room for that anymore.
| conductr wrote:
| As a Texan I'm obligated to concur on whataburger however
| if I'm being truthful their consistency is all over the map
| too. I'm pretty sure it's a result of store level execution
| and management. Oddly enough, I find the best ones are
| those located in pit stop towns between the major cities.
| They get enough traffic to stay fresh, they probably have
| low turnover, and the manager might be making a career of
| it. That how I rationalize it anyhow.
| newman8r wrote:
| I'm very sensitive to any seafood taste as well, and If I
| ever detect it in something that's not seafood, I'll just
| instantly throw the meal away. I'll make an exception for
| caesar dressing.
|
| I like seafood too, just not in my onion rings.
| sergers wrote:
| completely different experience in canada.
|
| all the A&W restaurants are clean and courteous, amazed at the
| employees commitment at a probably min wage job.
|
| 1)you are greeted at the door as you enter, open the door as
| you come and go for you.
|
| 2)if you are eating indoors, they will bring the food to you
| like a sit down restaurant (just you paying up front).
|
| 3)they come by and ask about refills, or ordering any other
| items
|
| 4)come by and offer treats.
|
| 5)all the food is made to order.
|
| 6)the quality is good, hormone free quality beef.
|
| my understanding canadian AW is operated by a diff company than
| US AW, so maybe different policies and practices
| subsubzero wrote:
| 100% agree, people do not factor in consistency when it comes
| to fast food, McDonald's is the king of consistency its why
| they have expanded so fast around the world, also they are a
| clean restaurant. My expectation in 20 years is mcdonald's to
| own the burger chain experience globally, I expect Carls
| Jr.(hardees) Wendys, and A&W to not be around by then.
| oceanghost wrote:
| This rings true to me. I used to live next to an A&W-- I went
| there exactly once, absolutely hated it and never went back.
| MBCook wrote:
| The last time I was in an A&W was most of a decade ago. All I
| wanted was a root beer.
|
| They were out.
|
| Of A&W root beer.
|
| I haven't been back.
| tk75x wrote:
| Well yeah, it's the thing in their name and therefore must be
| the most popular item.
| MBCook wrote:
| Honestly, the store is really rundown and I almost never
| see anyone at it. I'm amazed they were out of anything.
| singingboyo wrote:
| I went into a place known for smoothies/slushes a few
| months ago. They were out of the frozen yogurt they use
| in something like half of them. And then tried to sub
| with almond milk or something.
|
| Some places just can't manage stocking properly, I guess.
| mark-r wrote:
| There was a sub sandwich place near the University I went
| to. Went in one day and was told they were out of bread.
| I figured that meant they were really in trouble,
| probably fell behind on paying for supplies.
| MBCook wrote:
| If almost no one ever comes to your restaurant, I imagine
| it's pretty hard to hire/pay to hire a good manager who
| would prevent something like that from happening.
| yardie wrote:
| There is room for variation in consistency. Like McDonald's
| abroad is not the same in every country. The menu in India is
| primarily chicken-based. Muslim countries don't even carry a
| bacon option. The order of importance also varies by region.
| McDonald's in France has consistently been the best fast food
| I've ever had. Me and my 20-something coworkers would regularly
| go while older, upper-management would make fun of us and head
| over to pricier brasseries for lunch. The complained about the
| service while we were in and out in 10mins.
|
| Burger King left France as an abject failure 20 years and re-
| arrived a few years. What changed? Different marketing and
| leadership. Trying less to be an American company abroad and
| more of French fast food company that happens to be American.
| tristor wrote:
| I wouldn't necessarily call that variation in consistency,
| but it's interesting you bring up the regional variations at
| McDonald's (Pizza Hut is one that has some /very/ interesting
| regional variations as well). This is something that can
| actually be jarring to Americans when they travel abroad, so
| much so that it's become something of a meme in travel
| communities for first-time travelers.
|
| I think it's important to understand that it's pretty rare
| for a business to fail in its home market and succeed
| elsewhere, so winning in the home market first is important.
| A&W's home market and McDonald's home market is the US, and
| in the US McDonald's is /extremely/ consistent nationwide.
| It's probably the most consistent restaurant in any category.
| teakettle42 wrote:
| > Muslim countries don't even carry a bacon option.
|
| That's ... minor.
|
| I ate at a McDonalds in Marrakech (Morocco), and language and
| minor local menu variations aside, the food and experience
| was as close to quintessential as any McDonalds I've visited
| in the elsewhere in the world -- including, of course, the
| US.
| Zanni wrote:
| This is especially true overseas. I call McDonald's "American
| Embassies." When I'm traveling and stressed, tired, hungry and
| definitely not in the mood for an adventure, I can count on
| McDonald's to have a menu I can order off, whether I know the
| language or not, for the food to be satisfying and safe, for
| the prices to be predictable, for the restaurant to be clean
| and for the bathrooms to have toilet paper.
| salamandersauce wrote:
| I have. Here in Canada I'm pretty sure A&W is still growing and
| doing well. It's very different from the US version from what
| I've heard. It's one of the better fast food chains IMO,
| especially of the larger ones. Definitely have the best onion
| rings.
| Kluny wrote:
| Canadian a&w is a totally different beast from the American
| franchise, related in name only, and my favorite fast food by
| a long way.
| stewjacks wrote:
| A&W Canada is a different company entirely
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%26W_(Canada)
| 3pt14159 wrote:
| Not the person you're replying to, just a similarly
| perplexed Canadian. They're the only fast food joint I go
| to here in Canada when I'm not traveling (and, really,
| other than traveling that's maybe 5 to 10 times a year) but
| their quality here is quite high for the category and
| price.
| lhorie wrote:
| I've found that Toronto has a bigger appetite (pun not
| intended) for higher quality "fast food". Quiznos and
| craft burger joints also come to mind.
| lostapathy wrote:
| Most of the mcdonald's experience is pretty consistent - but
| they need to figure out the bun situation. All too often I get
| a burger with a nasty, stale bun and it's just gross.
|
| Usually when I'm getting drive-through on a road trip so I
| can't even go back and complain about it.
| darepublic wrote:
| I sometimes go to A&W in Toronto Canada, and here I would say
| its the opposite - A&W is generally pretty reliable and
| consistent in quality across its locations whereas Mcdonalds
| can vary quite a bit based on time and location.
|
| Poeple's attachment to certain restaurants is deeper than
| seeking out the best deal or best taste. Generally I consider
| an A&W burger superior to Mcdonalds, just as I would consider
| many boutique burger places superior to mickey ds. Yet the
| latter has a place in my heart that is really pretty irrational
| dirtyid wrote:
| A&W Canada has been downright impressive in being
| consistently good. Around the level of south-asian owned
| popeyes franchises. Whatever culture they have behind the
| scenes, I hope franchises restaurants follow.
| [deleted]
| tesseract wrote:
| A&W Canada has been unrelated to A&W in the US since the 70s,
| and seems to be the more successful of the two by far.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| Yes, as an American when I was driving across Alberta I was
| absolutely astounded by how many A&Ws there were and how
| nice they seemed. At least in my corner of the US, A&W has
| a thorough reputation as a cheap, lame has-been that's
| usually tandemed with other failed fast food brands. The
| only one I know of in the state regularly garners comments
| that "wow, that still exists?" when driving by.
|
| In Canada, on the other hand, it seems to be a major and
| well-liked brand... As much as I found the slogan "American
| food" very funny given their reputation here.
| katbyte wrote:
| A n W is the most popular well liked fast food in my
| friend group, and imho the best quality chain in Canada.
| myohmy wrote:
| Its worth noting that the reason this happened is because
| management bought out the company from Unilever. They were
| able to switch to a long term vision, then transformed and
| succeeded.
|
| Just goes to show that the boardroom can absolutely hobble
| a good management team.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| There used to be a A&W in my home town that finally closed
| in 2017. For awhile durning some kind of ownership tranfer
| the franchisees were mostly left high and dry and that
| place became the best 'fast food' burger in town. I think I
| remember that the franchise owner basically started buying
| everything from other suppliers and was only buying a few
| things from upstream A&W (notably root beer). He pivoted
| his burgers to compete on quality with the other fast food
| in town, i think that all went to shit a couple of years
| later presumably when he either sold or got smacked down
| the the franchise. Either way it's kind of one of those
| 'zombie brands' now .. slowly succumbing to economics.
| eddanger wrote:
| I totally agree. The A&W burger in Canada is superior to
| other fast-food chains hands down. It seems to be A&W in name
| only.
| FpUser wrote:
| I am no longer customer of fast food chain (mostly BBQ at
| home) but many years ago when I used to I very much
| preferred Harvey's to anything else.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Piling up on the Canadians who like A&W thread. It's our go-
| to fast food chain, burgers are of decent quality, their
| vegetarian option is reasonably good, and the root beer is
| delicious.
| jandrese wrote:
| I'm dubious of the claim that there were enough Americans who
| don't understand fractions to cause the product to fail. There
| are a huge number of reasons why a product sells poorly. It may
| be too expensive. It may not be the right product (too big for
| lunch). The place where it is being sold may have other issues.
|
| I've only been to an A&W a couple of times, and in both cases
| the food was notably subpar--it seemed like something I might
| find in a school cafeteria, the service was slow, and the
| ambiance was dingy. I also don't like root beer that much so
| the restaurant has little draw for me. I'm more surprised that
| they were able to sell enough to stay in business at all.
| Customer confusion over the size of the 1/3 pounder is the
| least of their problems.
| space_ghost wrote:
| Personal anecdote: I've only gotten food poisoning from a
| restaurant _once_ in my life, and it was an A &W in the early
| 2000's.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| "Mismanaged franchise declines" doesn't get smug upvotes, cheap
| comments, shares and general engagement/popularity among the HN
| and Reddit demographics the way portraying fast food eating
| Americans as dumb does.
|
| Every human (and many non-humans, though they may have more
| difficulty expressing it) who's had to divide things by three
| and four knows that knows that a third is more than a quarter.
| People know in the back of their minds that other people know
| this. But the dumb lizard brain takes over and they can't help
| but engage with low effort content that is spun in a way that
| confirms their biases.
| colechristensen wrote:
| For what it's worth i've personally had a few disagreements
| with people who wouldn't believe a third was bigger than a
| fourth.
| the-dude wrote:
| Choose your battles wisely.
| subsubzero wrote:
| Everyone knows that a 1/3 lb burger is larger than a quarter
| pounder, but unsure why the author never thought the reason
| people objected to the 1/3lb burger was due to its way too
| much meat to have for a burger, usually fast food is eaten
| during lunch and people don't want to have a gigantic lunch
| that will make them groggy during the 2nd half of the day.
| whoopdedo wrote:
| This is supported by the success of the fast-casual chain
| Fuddruckers which also served 1/3 pound burgers. Their
| restaurants are configured for large groups. It's the sort
| of place you take the whole family out to dinner. I don't
| think anyone was confused by the menu options when they
| went there.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| I'm not sure if the average American would actually have
| difficulty eating that anymore
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Wendy's is superior to McDonald's for a nationwide chain in
| quality, but the consistency is more variable, so McDonald's
| rules.
|
| Wendy's sandwiches here are 2x-3x higher than McD's. Some folks
| don't expect it - they read the Wendy's menu & then drive next
| door to McD's.
| davio wrote:
| A&W was always a combo stores with Long John Silver's here.
|
| Fried fish with malt vinegar, fried cheese curds, frosty mug of
| root beer - meal of champions
| mark-r wrote:
| I think they had one of those in Tomah, Wisconsin. Closed
| unfortunately.
| MAGZine wrote:
| What a strange, meandering comment. I'm not really sure what
| your thesis is. You seem to disagree with the article but the
| only real rebuttal you offer is "I know people, and everyone is
| good with fractions," which is more a comment on your
| interaction bubble than on the American populace.
|
| Everything else is just a comment on A&W in the last decade or
| two and holds no bearing on the quarter/third pounder topic.
| The war was won even before your hierarchy of what's important
| could be standardized over large geographic areas, which is
| really unclear to me how much it matters/is accurate. feels
| like conjecture. I could postulate what I think is important to
| the American consumer, but, again, conjecture.
| johnnyApplePRNG wrote:
| >More than half of the participants in the Yankelovich focus
| groups questioned the price of our burger. "Why," they asked,
| "should we pay the same amount for a third of a pound of meat as
| we do for a quarter-pound of meat at McDonald's? You're
| overcharging us." Honestly. People thought a third of a pound was
| less than a quarter of a pound. After all, three is less than
| four!
|
| Why not create a fifth pounder then?
| maxk42 wrote:
| Or rebrand it the 5-ouncer. 5oz being juuuust below a third of
| a pound, but still more than a quarter pound.
| david422 wrote:
| I can just see that backfiring as well. "I paid for more meat
| and all I get is this tiny thing."
| mywittyname wrote:
| Double-eighth burger!
| adamrmcd wrote:
| Or a 113 grammer!
| lbrito wrote:
| Not to reedit Imperial vs Metric, but I asked an American friend
| why he preferred the former, and he said it was "more
| intuitive/natural".
|
| I always found that answer really strange (how can "next exit 3
| 3/4 miles" be more intuitive than "next exit 3.75 miles"?), and
| this A&W anecdote kind of proves my point. If the burgers were
| measured in grams there could be no confusion about 400g being
| greater than 300g.
| mcdonje wrote:
| People who work in the trades with imperial measures get used
| to fractions and reasoning about distances in fractions.
|
| I have this 2-5/8 tile I need to split in half. Ok, 1-5/16.
| Contrast that with 2.625 / 2 = 1.3125.
|
| I'm sure tradespeople who use metric have their own ways of
| making simple calculations in their heads, but that's an
| example of why a lot of people who work with fractions prefer
| them.
| lbrito wrote:
| >I have this 2-5/8 tile I need to split in half. Ok, 1-5/16.
| Contrast that with 2.625 / 2 = 1.3125.
|
| The latter is much easier to think about IMO.
| mcdonje wrote:
| Just double the denominator. Do you have .625/2=.3125
| memorized?
| tempest_ wrote:
| No but half of 625 is very easy math (half of 600 is 300,
| half of 25 is 12.5) and it makes doing everything else so
| much easier.
| seszett wrote:
| That and in practice, tiles aren't found in dimensions of
| 26.25 cm, but 20, 25 or 30 cm.
|
| Calculations with those numbers are trivial to make, and
| when they aren't trivial those numbers are also easier to
| type on a calculator than fractions.
| andrew_ wrote:
| It's "easy math" if you're trained to think and calculate
| in that way. Never assume something is universally easy
| because it comes easy to yourself.
| abdulmuhaimin wrote:
| not a convincing argument. Same can be said for the other
| side
| nkrisc wrote:
| I find the latter more difficult because you're carrying
| numbers to different places and have to reason about the
| whole number. In the former you can cheat by just halving
| (doubling, yeah it's a little counterintuitive) the
| denominator (ignoring the integer in both examples, since
| that's easy in both).
|
| But I will grant you, converting between denominators makes
| my head hurt in the imperial system. Overall I do still
| think metric is easier as a whole.
| otikik wrote:
| I've seen this in action in some US Youtube channels.
|
| To me it feels like those videos of people who lost their
| arms and learned to play the drums with their feet.
|
| Impressive, but also born out of limitations.
|
| > tradespeople who use metric
|
| 2.625 / 2 = Divide each digit by 2 = 1 . 3 1 (2.5) = 1.3125
|
| Most of the time it isn't needed because there isn't a lot of
| those fractions going around to begin with. The problem isn't
| the units, themselves (inches, etc). It's that their relation
| isn't 10.
| philwelch wrote:
| > The problem isn't the units, themselves (inches, etc).
| It's that their relation isn't 10.
|
| That's a feature. 10 isn't divisible by 3.
| mturmon wrote:
| Now, repeat the exercise with a 3-5/8 tile.
|
| Not as easy.
| nicoburns wrote:
| That's why metric distances of smallish objects are measured
| in millimetres. The unit is small enough that you'd pretty
| much never need more than one decimal place.
| mywittyname wrote:
| You'd think, but that isn't the case. 3/8ths - an extremely
| common SAE measurement - is 9.5mm. 1/2in is 12.7mm; 1/4 is
| 6.4mm.
|
| These rounding errors add up. And you can't really get away
| with sticking to metric because (in the USA) you're bound
| run into a situation where you have to buy pre-fabbed goods
| measured in SAE.
|
| So now you need to not only deal with decimal to fraction
| conversions, but remember the "special cases" like 3/8ths.
| nicoburns wrote:
| When other countries switched to metric they also
| switched their standard measurements to metric-rounded
| equivalents. In fact, here in the UK it's a legal
| requirement that everything (with a few exceptions) must
| be sold using metric measurements. It's certainly doable.
| gnopgnip wrote:
| Are 1/4" ratchets labeled 6.3mm in the UK?
| tristor wrote:
| I don't know how the UK tool companies do things, but I
| buy and use a lot of German tools and it depends on the
| brand. Most use metric measurements everywhere, some of
| them that are more widely distributed like Wera will use
| SAE measurements in their US/NA literature and metric
| everywhere else and use geolocation to provide you the
| appropriate product page or data sheet. It is very common
| though to see 9.5mm or 12.7mm drive ratchets (I don't
| really look at tiny stuff, so can't recall ever seeing
| 6.3mm but I'm sure I have).
|
| Anyone who works with hand tools should already be
| familiar with both metric and imperial and converting
| between them at this point, especially in the UK where
| /both/ measurement systems are used.
| bluGill wrote:
| THIS IS ALL WRONG! When working with tile you level of
| precision is 1/4 an inch. So the 2-5/8 tile is either 2-1/2
| or 2-3/4. Either way divide by 2 and it is 1-1/4 or maybe
| 1-1/2 - both will fit so who cares.
|
| Significant digest isn't only something they teach in
| physics, it exists in the real world.
| mcdonje wrote:
| It was a contrived example with the tile. I've had to do
| that calculation in the past with other materials.
| panzagl wrote:
| He probably meant the units themselves were more natural, not
| fractions vs decimal- 1 foot seems like a much more natural
| unit than 30 cm or .3 meters, 1 cup rather than 250 ml, etc.
| danielrpa wrote:
| "Quarter" have other popular usages that are deeply ingrained in
| American culture. "Quarterback", "Insert a quarter", "This
| quarter's results were good", "quart" (measurement), "it's a
| quarter to one" etc. Actual math aside, it's simply a more
| familiar word.
| canadaduane wrote:
| Good point. Maybe "Quarter Plus Pounder" would ride on that
| familiarity.
| jmaygarden wrote:
| I guess Hardee's/Carl's Jr. took this information into account
| when they went with "Thickburger."
| millisecond wrote:
| Kinda reminds me of all the early Twitter clones where you could
| post 141 or unlimited or whatever size posts. Just thinking that
| mathematically bigger is immediately better in all dimensions
| seems like a common fallacy.
| koala_man wrote:
| Remember when consoles were all trying to beat each other on
| word length? We had machines marketed as "128bit" for a while.
| jasonhansel wrote:
| Now that I think about it, I'm curious about the reliability of
| this result. While it says that the majority of participants
| "questioned the price of [the] burger," it doesn't explicitly
| state that all of these people questioned the price because they
| thought 1/3 < 1/4. There are also no hard numbers provided in the
| quotation, and we aren't told anything about the methodology or
| sample size.
|
| It seems possible that people questioned the price, not because
| they were confused about fractions, but because they thought that
| the burger was too low in quality to justify the same price as a
| McDonald's Quarter Pounder.
|
| [edit: While they say that A&W's burger outperformed in blind
| taste tests, those taste tests could have had methodological
| differences (or even just a different sample of the population)
| that would make it impossible to compare their results to those
| of the focus groups.]
|
| [edit 2: New Coke also outperformed regular Coke in blind taste
| tests and was also priced the same. But it was a massive failure,
| and not because of mathematical confusion.]
| porbelm wrote:
| It won taste comparisons and was priced the same?
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Now that I think about it, I'm curious about the reliability
| of this result.
|
| I heard the same story in the 1980s & again in the 1990s and it
| was about Wendy's 1/3 lb burgers. There were no A&Ws in either
| of those markets.
| pverghese wrote:
| It was priced the same
| Izkata wrote:
| I always thought "quarter" referred to the monetary unit, not a
| modifier to "pound", implying "cheap for the amount of meat you
| get".
| netrus wrote:
| But then the French would not need to call it a Royale with
| Cheese!
| [deleted]
| gitonup wrote:
| Regarding taste tests, it's common for _very_ sweet drinks to
| win because they give a small amount to taste. The experience
| of drinking the normal serving size (in the US) of 12oz is a
| different beast.
| throwaway91321 wrote:
| A few other points - first, from what I can tell, the third
| pounder used two 3 ounce patties while the quarter pounder used
| one 4 ounce patty. So it's possible that it looked like less to
| people.
|
| Second, the third pounder later changed it's name to the Papa
| Burger. Though there's a lot of discussion claiming the name
| "third pounder" hurt sales, I can't find any information about
| how the change in name effected sales. And even after the name
| change, it still doesn't seem to have been nearly as successful
| as the quarter pounder or the whopper.
|
| Third, the way A&W management talk about this makes it seem
| like if they just offered up a larger burger a good chunk of
| the population would come to them instead of McDonald's. It
| sounds like they convinced themselves that "bigger burger" was
| going to be a hugely successful campaign, but it's likely a lot
| of people didn't care that much.
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if some people opted for the quarter
| pounder because they're bad at fractions, but my guess is that
| there are other, more important factors involved. When choosing
| a fast food place I doubt the first thing that pops into most
| people's minds is "how many ounces are in everyone's signature
| burgers?"
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