[HN Gopher] Germany's federal police agency purchased and used '...
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Germany's federal police agency purchased and used 'Pegasus'
spyware
Author : arkadiyt
Score : 156 points
Date : 2021-09-12 16:58 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.techspot.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.techspot.com)
| newbamboo wrote:
| If one nation does, every nation does. This is the core problem.
| Like nuclear weapons, one can't choose to opt out. Defensive
| realism.
| swayson wrote:
| And this is why certain events are considered catalysts on a
| slippery slope...
| garbagecoder wrote:
| Reminds me of the faux outrage over the US tapping Merkel's phone
| only to find of course everyone either does this or wishes they
| could.
| samvega_ wrote:
| You think the reaction to Snowden's uncovering of NSA's global
| surveillance program was "faux outrage"?
| adventured wrote:
| In terms of how the other nations responded? Of course it
| was. They had to put on a good show for their citizens.
|
| The other eyes nations all understood the NSA & Co. had
| cooked up exceptionally broad technology. They all lied and
| pretended to be surprised and outraged. That faux outrage was
| for domestic propaganda consumption, because the alternative
| to that is to admit they were party to some of what the NSA
| has been up to for decades.
|
| All major affluent nations - without exception - understood
| the US had an intense global spy machine. That has been true
| for ~70 years now. Many of them are part of that machine. Of
| course they don't all know every program the US is working
| on, that makes little difference in whether they grasp the
| basics though. The know what the NSA does, they all have
| their own intelligence agencies, and they all partner with
| the US in one way or another.
|
| And some of those faux outrage nations are top tier spying
| nations themselves, including Russia and China. They lied and
| pretended to be surprised or shocked at what the US was
| doing. The point of that is similarly pure propaganda (in
| that case both for a domestic and international audience, it
| was a good opportunity to jab the US on propaganda).
| [deleted]
| beebeepka wrote:
| The ones from government officials certainly was. You
| seriously think governments don't spy on each other? As if
| any politician in the world can poop without it being
| recorded.
| jn1234 wrote:
| Cheaper than developing their own solution and Germany has very
| good relations with Israel.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| How many countries don't have high level officials reporting to
| Israel?
| ben_w wrote:
| Israel isn't a very big or globally powerful nation, so I'd be
| very surprised if they care enough about minor nations not in
| their immediate area to even bother trying most places.
| NaturalPhallacy wrote:
| >Israel isn't a very big or globally powerful nation
|
| Israel has _enormous_ influence over the most powerful nation
| on earth through AIPAC. Every president meets with them.
| Every Congressman goes to Israel as "tradition". Many
| federal representatives are dual Israeli/US citizens.
| [deleted]
| ben_w wrote:
| Sure, and there's a big gap between that and asking "How
| many countries don't have high level officials reporting to
| Israel?", which is what I was replying to.
|
| Even without the USA having been a major destination for
| the Jewish diaspora while the point of modern Israel being
| a safe place for Jewish people[0], the global importance of
| the USA makes the American government a target for almost
| all other nations to try to influence.
|
| America gets this from both a the motive and opportunity
| directions. Most places, Israel has neither, IMO.
|
| [0] at least that's what I was taught. If this isn't the
| case, someone _please_ tell me.
| [deleted]
| croes wrote:
| The german Minister of the Interior, Horst Seehofer, was
| allegedly not informed about it.
|
| Don't know which possibility is worth, that they really didn't
| inform him, or that they did and lie about.
| webmobdev wrote:
| Governments' have been known to be in the spying game since
| humans formed societies and kingdoms emerged. (
| https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24749166 ). Even our modern
| postal system are somewhat developed on the Roman model of its
| own messenger service, which was mainly created for easy spying
| and to protect the rulers from espionage. (
| https://www.historynet.com/espionage-in-ancient-rome.htm )
|
| Pegasus is just a tool, and we shouldn't be shocked that a
| government owns or even uses such a tool. _Our only concern
| should be whether the use of such tools are well-defined and
| legal, and upholds our democratic values._
|
| A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to
| power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it
| cannot do so without repercussions.
|
| We can see this in action in India today, where the current Modi
| government in power is accused of abusing this very privilege and
| using Pegasus to spy on activists, journalists and opposition
| leaders that the Modi regime considers a threat to itself (
| https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/explained-pegasus-and...
| ).
|
| If true, that's a gross abuse of power, and a threat to India's
| democracy. Pegasus isn't the worry here - _if a government in
| power doesn 't have any respect for democracy, that threat will
| remain whether Pegasus exists or not_.
|
| Opposition politicians have already raised the issue in the
| Parliament. Some of the concerned citizens, who believe they were
| the target of such surveillance, have already filed petitions in
| the Supreme Court of India, and the court has summoned the
| government to explain and defend itself (
| https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/pegasus-case-supreme-cour...
| ).
|
| If the allegation are true, this case will reveal how much the
| "checks and balances" of Indian democracy have failed (indicating
| that it has become a dysfunctional democracy). Or the revelations
| of this case may just strengthen indian democracy, with more
| checks and balances by the court and (who knows) maybe even
| stronger privacy laws.
|
| Germany (or any other country) too should have the same concerns
| - worry about your democracy and stronger privacy laws. Pegasus
| is irrelevant in the larger scheme.
| 1cvmask wrote:
| You write:
|
| A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to
| power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it
| cannot do so without repercussions.
|
| -
|
| They always break the law and abuse it. And there are no
| repercussions for breaking the law. George W Bush onwards there
| is precedence for lack of liability or repercussions. The same
| applies to all other countries and sets the inspiration for
| them for the all tracking surveillance state, which will always
| be abused. Restrictions exist to curtail and limit human
| nature. Once those restrictions are removed or above the law
| then we all subjects are at the mercy of the elites and their
| elite narrative. Woe to those who try to defy this Brave New
| World.
| atok1 wrote:
| All the big nation's pull this, unfortunately. Just some take
| longer to be reported on.
|
| We need to demand accountability for the countries that supply,
| and use these tools of terror.
| literallyaduck wrote:
| When any of them travel abroad they should be tried as spies.
| javajosh wrote:
| Meta comment. The problem with these stories is that there's no
| follow-through. The generalization (the current top comment, by
| newbamboo) harms the narrative, because it gives the sense that
| everyone is doing it, there's nothing to be done, etc. This is
| wrong. Each wrong needs a persistent state machine to track the
| facts, who's responsible, what action can be taken, what action
| has been taken to rectify, until there is a conclusion, one way
| or another. This will often take the form of either a court case
| or a legislative process. Each of which can take years.
|
| All of us are helpless in 99.9% of injustices done, because they
| happen in another place, or because we aren't involved in the
| affected systems. That fact does not mean that injustice cannot
| be rectified! It just means we need to encourage those in a
| position to make a positive change to do so. Don't fall into the
| trap of equating a global lack of efficacy with a lack of _local
| efficacy_.
|
| What I'm trying to say is: don't get disheartened or depressed by
| the onslaught of injustice you read about all over the world.
| Take care of the things you can affect, and give moral support to
| the others doing the same in their region.
|
| So, let's hear it from the Germans! Whatcha gonna do?
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > everyone is doing it, there's nothing to be done, etc. This
| is wrong.
|
| Well, what can be done about it? The US is not gonna stop
| spying just because they got denounced and certainly no country
| will declare war on them over it.
| adventured wrote:
| They all want to partake in the spying, that's the central
| issue for countries like Germany. It's the same across all of
| the 5|9|14 eyes groups of nations. They know exactly what the
| bargain is that they're accepting. They all know exactly what
| they're doing. No modern nation is so naive. Nobody else
| comes close to the global spying capabilities of the US, the
| other eyes nations all know that and they all want access to
| it.
|
| Germany has been knowingly helping to make the US global
| spying capabilities more potent for most of the post WW2 era.
|
| If you're Germany what you do is take whatever limited
| corrective counter measures that you can and attempt to
| improve the security of Merkel's communications, while
| seeking to maintain continued access to the US global spying
| machine.
| gscott wrote:
| If there is an orgy you don't call the police... you find
| out the address so you can attend as well.
| daanlo wrote:
| The easiest thing you can do is write a letter to your local
| member of parliament.
| daanlo wrote:
| Quick update: I just sent a short & friendly email to my
| local member of parliament asking him about his position on
| the matter. Took about 10 minutes.
| javajosh wrote:
| Kul. If you send me your email I'll paypal you $5 for your
| trouble. Seriously.
| woodpanel wrote:
| > _So, let 's hear it from the Germans! Whatcha gonna do?_
|
| Nothin' I tell ya, because Pegasus isn't going to be used
| against me, but against this anti-vaxx scum which is
| challenging the policies that I very much support.
|
| Seriously though, there are some prolific civil liberties
| lawyers that might start a legal case. Private citiziens surely
| won't becaue they'll either be labled a "Russian Disinformant"
| (if they have a Russian Passport) or a "Russian Disinformant-
| ed" (if their Vorratsdatenspeicherung has _one_ "fringe" news
| outlet in it).
| gerthrowaway21 wrote:
| German here: Angela Merkel (our chancellor) didnt even seem to
| care that the NSA had tapped her phone (1). The newly released
| cybersecurity strategy wants to backdoor all encrypted services
| (2).
|
| Sure you can encourage your local politicians to do
| "something". You can "protest" and maybe the federal
| politicians will even "admire" your cause. But realistically,
| there's nothing to be done.
|
| (1):
| https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2019-02/abhoeraffaer...
|
| (2):
| https://marketresearchtelecast.com/cyber-%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8Bs...
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Maybe she had nothing to hide :]
| javajosh wrote:
| If people think there's nothing to be done, then indeed,
| nothing will be done.
|
| Wenn ein Mann denkt, dass nichts getan werden kann, dann kann
| nichts getan werden.
| gerthrowaway21 wrote:
| Well if you think reality is a Hollywood rhetoric where if
| youre determined enough you can accomplish anything
| regardless of obstacles - good luck.
|
| Just gonna leave this list of events where the villains
| were brought to justice:
|
| https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocit
| i...
| javajosh wrote:
| No right-minded person would claim that mere
| determination leads to success. You need a lot of other
| things, including knowledge, luck, and more. However, it
| is correct to assert the contra-positive: if you don't
| try, then you will fail 100% of the time.
|
| But, to empathize with you, I understand the concern. It
| is disheartening to think that your efforts may go to
| waste, and result in...nothing. Worse than nothing,
| because you've paid the opportunity cost of the attempt.
| This is real.
|
| The mitigation is to reduce your opportunity cost. Send a
| letter to your legislature, an email to a newspaper. Talk
| to your friends about the issue. The positive effect is
| that you're broadcasting a truth, and maybe someone will
| respond.
|
| (Also, chicks dig a guy who actually believes in shit.)
| gerthrowaway21 wrote:
| "The mitigation is to reduce your opportunity cost (...)
| Also, chicks dig a guy who actually believes in shit."
|
| Man feels himself to be responsible, but he is not. He
| does not feel himself an object, but he is. He has been
| so well assimilated to the economic world, so well
| adjusted to it by being reduced to the homo economicus,
| in short, so well conditioned, that the appearance of
| personal life becomes for him the reality of personal
| life. Ellul, 1954
| javajosh wrote:
| "Anybody can look at a pretty girl and see a pretty girl.
| An artist can look at a pretty girl and see the old woman
| she will become. A better artist can look at an old woman
| and see the pretty girl that she used to be. But a great
| artist-a master-and that is what Auguste Rodin was-can
| look at an old woman, portray her exactly as she is...and
| force the viewer to see the pretty girl she used to
| be...and more than that, he can make anyone with the
| sensitivity of an armadillo, or even you, see that this
| lovely young girl is still alive, not old and ugly at
| all, but simply imprisoned inside her ruined body. He can
| make you feel the quiet, endless tragedy that there was
| never a girl born who ever grew older than eighteen in
| her heart...no matter what the merciless hours have done
| to her." - Heinlein
|
| And so it is with us, and our beautiful, human sense of
| morality, responsibility, and integrity, ravaged by time
| and the requirements of practicality.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Yeah I agree we are pretty much done here. All (major)
| countries are treating this "feature" of "must-have" and once
| you give the bureaucratic some power it is almost impossible
| to take it away from them.
| relativ575 wrote:
| > Angela Merkel (our chancellor) didnt even seem to care that
| the NSA had tapped her phone
|
| That's because she perhaps knows better than anyone that
| Germany also spy on the US; work with the US to spy on other
| countries; or in general, all intelligence agencies spy?
|
| https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-
| hou...
| gerthrowaway21 wrote:
| Missed that info. Thank you!
| hyperstar wrote:
| Can this thing infect any i-phone remotely?
| webmobdev wrote:
| Yes, it can -
| https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/infiltrated-by-p...
| hyperstar wrote:
| Seems from that article as if, if one disables i-message and
| face-time, it MAY not work.
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| They have a lot of zero days, and are constantly hunting
| more- presumably if you disable iMessage/FaceTime, they'll
| use a different exploit
|
| You should assume there are more zero days in iOS than any
| engineering team could possibly patch, given the history of
| other closed source software.
| thephyber wrote:
| This is a bit defeatist.
|
| There are a finite number of no-click mechanisms on the
| iPhone which accepts content from arbitrary actors on the
| internet. If you disable them, there are precious few
| ways to get hacked without user interaction.
|
| If you disable iMessage, FaceTime, emails, etc, you still
| need to worry about the WiFi, Bluetooth, and cellular
| stacks. Obviously disabling them all turns your
| smartphone into something less useful.
|
| But I would argue that this isn't unique to iPhone. There
| is more highlighting of iPhones because Apple is better
| at logging indicators of compromise on the device, so the
| audit trail of attempted/successful infection is better
| on Apple devices.
|
| In the past, some of the worst CVEs that affected Apple
| devices were pulled in from upstream open source
| projects. The core issue is not limited to closed-source
| projects (although I personally would like to see Apple
| support more red teamers to bang on their products).
| webmobdev wrote:
| Safari exploits are also used to gain access to your device
| - so you'll have to stop browsing the web too ...
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(page generated 2021-09-12 23:01 UTC)