[HN Gopher] BookWyrm is a federated Goodreads replacement
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       BookWyrm is a federated Goodreads replacement
        
       Author : dredmorbius
       Score  : 300 points
       Date   : 2021-09-05 00:05 UTC (22 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (wedistribute.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (wedistribute.org)
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | dictatorsunion wrote:
       | As an avid Goodreads user, Id say 80-90% of active GR users are
       | female teenagers. Id suggest promoting on booktwitter or booktok
       | instead if you want more traction. There's also StoryGraph in the
       | running with the same if not more features and a pretty strong
       | network effect already, but still miles away from GR. GR is the
       | laggiest platform I have ever used, and the tech updates are
       | minimal at best, but people still use it primarily because of the
       | network size. Just pure network size.
        
         | Aeolun wrote:
         | > Id say 80-90% of active GR users are female teenagers.
         | 
         | This explains a lot about the lists I see being popular on
         | there.
        
         | toyg wrote:
         | _> As an avid Goodreads user, Id say 80-90% of active GR users
         | are female teenagers._
         | 
         | Lol, I would have said "50yo vanity-obsessed male geeks"
         | instead, judging by the activity in my feed.
         | 
         | I recently made a bit of an effort to use GR a bit more, to go
         | through some of the challenges and increase my reading rates.
         | The anglocentrism is tiring, though - all the "best" lists are
         | dominated by mediocre Anglo writers. If I remember correctly,
         | when "social lit" sites first exploded, they had basically
         | segmented by language - I know Italians used Anubii rather than
         | GR, for example. I picked GR because I was still somewhat in
         | love with the anglosphere, I think I'm ready to move to
         | something a bit more "i18n", but it's not clear what that might
         | be.
        
       | tpoacher wrote:
       | What exactly is wrong with Goodreads? I keep hearing a lot of
       | hate about it, but the reasons seem never expanded on.
       | 
       | I use Goodreads to maintain a public bookshelf of books I have
       | read or want to read. It's also nice that I can check what my
       | friends are reading. Occasionally it's nice to read other
       | people's views on a book. I typically tend not to agree, but it's
       | nice that these exist.
       | 
       | That's it. Isn't that what Goodreads is about? Seems like a nice
       | website and perfectly suited for what it does. Am I missing
       | something?
        
         | matsemann wrote:
         | Lots of discussions over the years about it here.
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904549
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24454221
         | 
         | For me it works ok. But that's because I like you only use it
         | to track. But if the other stuff worked better I might have
         | used that too. A better recommendation system. Not insane
         | loading times would maybe make me browse more etc. So much
         | untapped potential here.
        
         | jan_Inkepa wrote:
         | It does feel a bit neglected/dead (except for the fact that
         | people still use it a bunch) - the changes come rarely. In some
         | sense this is nice! It's a stable piece of software that does
         | what it should do.
         | 
         | One thing I find lacking is that it seems to mostly be used by
         | english-speakers. So the one case where I'd be curious to use
         | the social networking features, for non-English-lanuage
         | literature, it falls flat. There's no equivalent to it that I
         | know of for the German-language world (that people actually
         | use), which is irksome, because I'd actually use the social
         | networking features there (whereas for English literature I
         | know what I like and don't care what other people read, I don't
         | know German literature as well).
         | 
         | But not becoming terrible is a nice side-effect of this...it's
         | not even a managed decline, it's just pottering along okay! But
         | it is odd. I wonder what their high-level strategy as a
         | business is.
        
           | denisw wrote:
           | In the German-speaking world, LovelyBooks [1] is quite
           | popular. It seems to be strongly focused on fiction, though.
           | 
           | [1]: https://www.lovelybooks.de/
        
         | varjag wrote:
         | Yeah. It's poised to become Amazon's Google Reader, but just as
         | with Reader there's nothing truly wrong with it aside from lack
         | of maintenance.
        
         | input_sh wrote:
         | - It sucks at recommending books. You may stumble upon some
         | book in the home feed, but its recommendation is as good as if
         | it didn't exist.
         | 
         | - Lists suck. For example, it never anticipates even something
         | as simple as abandoning a book (though you can create that).
         | 
         | - There's like a whole industry of faking ratings and nobody
         | cares about it enough to do anything about it.
         | 
         | - It's owned by Amazon, but Amazon basically didn't touch it
         | since the acquisition almost a decade ago.
         | 
         | Well, they did so recently to kill the API access, which was
         | its #1 selling point to me. I liked using it by not visiting
         | their ugly design ever, but that's not a possibility anymore.
        
           | verylittlemeat wrote:
           | Goodreads will always win simply because it's where all the
           | users are.
           | 
           | Like reddit or any huge site its usefulness isn't in the
           | presented top layer (recommendations/front page/popular list
           | of x) it's the depth of millions of users.
           | 
           | If you read a relatively obscure book and look it up on
           | goodreads then you read through the reviews to find users who
           | gave a high quality write up and then look at that user's
           | profile. This will lead you to other users and books that are
           | actual quality.
           | 
           | You could create a smaller website with a higher quality
           | surface level but it's going to be infected with the bias of
           | a small "elite" userbase making it a basically useless echo
           | chamber.
        
             | poetaster wrote:
             | While I generally agree that everything needs work, I also
             | believe don't fix it if it isn't broke.'
        
             | the_biot wrote:
             | In other words, stop trying, let's just stick with the
             | current terrible status quo. That's a supremely unhelpful
             | comment to make, intended to discourage anyone from
             | improving things ever. Shall we all just go back to a cave
             | and knock some rocks together?
        
               | verylittlemeat wrote:
               | It's a reality check for anyone who makes a better
               | goodreads and doesn't understand why it never gains
               | traction.
               | 
               | It's on par with complaining about facebook and creating
               | your own better version of facebook while completely
               | ignoring the reason why everyone is on facebook to begin
               | with.
        
           | dewey wrote:
           | > It's owned by Amazon, but Amazon basically didn't touch it
           | since the acquisition almost a decade ago.
           | 
           | This is a good thing. In the recent year they updated the
           | design in subtle ways to make it nicer to use and less rough
           | around the edges too which was a nice surprise.
        
           | ainzzorl wrote:
           | > Amazon basically didn't touch it since the acquisition
           | almost a decade ago.
           | 
           | This is what I love about it. When something works for me
           | (and Goodreads does), I don't want it to change.
        
             | input_sh wrote:
             | It's not a good thing when there are glaring issues that
             | remain unfixed, like books receiving 1 star reviews while
             | they're still being written.
        
               | Brybry wrote:
               | Personally, as a Goodreads user I don't care about the
               | review ratings.
               | 
               | I'm there for: a) making a list of things I want to read
               | b) finding more books by authors (including upcoming) to
               | add to that list c) release dates for books on that list
               | (and sorting that list by date) d) seeing what other
               | people are reading
               | 
               | All of those tasks were time consuming before Goodreads
               | and I'm extremely happy that some let's-refactor-our-
               | website-for-whatever-reason push hasn't broken my use
               | case.
               | 
               | 1 and 5 star ratings for unreleased books are dumb but
               | humans are really bad at 5 star rating systems anyway.
               | 
               | I find there's far more value in the _number_ of ratings,
               | but in the end books are often about personal taste.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | mejutoco wrote:
       | I like goodreads a lot often check reviews there. I was missing
       | recommended books based on more than one book. Something more
       | nuanced than books similar to x.
       | 
       | I created my own solution for it and published it here:
       | 
       | https://what3books.com
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | krono wrote:
       | As far as I'm aware, it's the only service that lets you easily
       | find out whether a book is part of a series/universe, where/how
       | it fits in there, and notifies you about upcoming entries in
       | series you follow (email notifications have never worked for me,
       | but at least you can check on the site).
       | 
       | Essentially series/universe discovery and news. This used to be
       | massive painpoint for completionist me before Goodreads.
       | 
       | If anyone knows of any alternatives I'm all ears by the way.
        
       | ZeroGravitas wrote:
       | I think the key is to seperate the catalogue of books and authors
       | from the social and recommendation elements, which is another
       | aspect of federation and de-centralization.
       | 
       | If you're aiming to lock people in and own all their data, then
       | you need to combine the two, but then you kill the social
       | elements by sucking in lots of disparate communities. You can do
       | something sub-reddit like, but if you're not actually interested
       | in sucking up everyone's information then you can slice off the
       | catalogue part to openlibrary and wikidata and have a much easier
       | time building your specific social thing on top.
       | 
       | Bookwyrm (and inventaire.io) seem to have adopted this approach,
       | building on OpenLibrary and Wikidata catalogues.
       | 
       | And in the background those two data projects interact at various
       | levels and with other open data projects that build from the same
       | sources. For example, there's wikidata projects that try to
       | seperate out all the acadamic authors with the same name, so you
       | can have multiple John Smith's and find the right one and connect
       | them across different databases.
        
       | personjerry wrote:
       | It really feels like "federated" is to tech geeks (i.e. HN
       | people) what "blockchain" is to a lot of non-tech people.
       | 
       | What does federated do for me at all in solving this problem?
        
         | rektide wrote:
         | federated means your bookgroup could set up their own instance
         | & everyone could either post their book reviewws there, or you
         | could aggregate your own reviews into that instance. it's the
         | freedom to start new communities, while still being able to
         | participate worldwide.
         | 
         | it means that there's a protocol there, at the heart, for
         | having multiple parties cooperating. it means anyone is free to
         | build their own server or client. it meams we're not all
         | trapped in one walled garden, one silo, it means the freedom to
         | innovate & evolve.
         | 
         | right now there is not a lot of models for how we the peoe can
         | host things online in an interoperable way. we can still use
         | http & the technology that we have (unlike block chain), but we
         | can use well defined vocabulary
         | (https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-
         | vocabulary/#activity-t...) & protocols as a base to communicate
         | & interweave social networking systems.
        
           | pharmakom wrote:
           | I agree with everything you've said, but most users will
           | never want to host their own instance. It might even be an
           | anti feature, since it sounds like a bunch of work! This is
           | not a benefit that most people are going to care about - at
           | least in the way you have explained it.
        
             | tigroferoce wrote:
             | I think it's a different view. Technical-savvy people who
             | know how the web was conceived and thought like
             | decentralization because it promises freedom. In my
             | (limited) experience users just want ease of use and nice
             | UX, and just don't take into account the long term
             | implications of their choices. I'm afraid, like someone
             | said earlier, that decentralization solves a problem
             | mainstream don't have and don't want to have.
        
               | pharmakom wrote:
               | I think the mainstream does care about decentralisation,
               | but only in so far as it affects the final experience.
               | Censorship on major social networks is a great example.
               | People absolutely do care, but starting their own Reddit
               | (for instance) is far outside of their abilities. Where
               | would you even begin?
               | 
               | They also don't care about how it is implemented, just so
               | long as it works. Sometime I feel like the HN crowd cares
               | more about what language a product was written in than
               | how well it serves their needs!
               | 
               | What is required is a platform which combines the UX of a
               | centralised service with the ability to easily spin up
               | new instances, is open-source, security audited, etc.
               | etc.
        
           | nsim wrote:
           | I'm still trying to understand how this works at a functional
           | level.
           | 
           | I see you can find reviews via ActivePub services, like
           | Mastodon, but you can only post from BookWyrm instances?
           | i.e., you can't have one federated social identity that can
           | post reviews and post other fediverse content?
        
             | zdunn wrote:
             | No. Unfortunately, the fediverse has kind of given up on
             | the idea of a single identity using a variety of services.
             | Every new ActivityPub services wants to own the user
             | account and the interactions are one way or extremely
             | limited (likes/reposts).
        
         | atatatat wrote:
         | Shows that the architects took an above average time
         | considering the space, and that users may be turned off by data
         | lock in due to previous community betrayal.
        
         | mdoms wrote:
         | None of this federated stuff will ever gain mainstream
         | acceptance. I would bet my house on it. It adds multiple layers
         | of complexity and a ton of UX trade-off, and doesn't solve any
         | problems for a typical user.
        
           | oehtXRwMkIs wrote:
           | Ever heard of email?
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | varjag wrote:
             | That's a stretch, as it has neither identity nor content
             | federation. Would you call IP stack a federation protocol
             | too?
        
           | commoner wrote:
           | I wouldn't make that bet. Mastodon isn't mainstream yet, but
           | it does have almost a million active users:
           | 
           | https://fediverse.party/en/mastodon
        
             | smt88 wrote:
             | A million active users is at least two orders of magnitude
             | away from "mainstream".
        
           | Scarblac wrote:
           | It's the main difference between the WWW and the centralized
           | information systems that came before it.
           | 
           | I remember seeing the first Web pages at CERN, clicking
           | through them a bit and being unimpressed. You sound like me
           | back then.
        
           | corobo wrote:
           | I agree in terms of users running their own thing.
           | 
           | What I do imagine will happen is that one instance takes off,
           | gets itself a board or VC to answer to, removes activitypub,
           | runs away with the win
           | 
           | Tech people will be mad but overall nobody will be able to do
           | anything about it as they'll just ground-up rewrite
           | eventually. The users won't care about the drama at all
           | 
           | Money is a bastard
           | 
           | I'd love to be wrong on it and I'm not just sitting here
           | doom'n and gloom'n, I'm trying to ActivityPub-enable all of
           | my projects as it happens! I do believe it's something to
           | watch out for though
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | zozbot234 wrote:
             | > What I do imagine will happen is that one instance takes
             | off, gets itself a board or VC to answer to, removes
             | activitypub, runs away with the win
             | 
             | Any instance which did this would be totally forgoing the
             | network effect of being able to link up w/ other instances.
             | So this is quite unlikely, at least in most cases.
        
               | corobo wrote:
               | Any instance that did this wouldn't care, they have all
               | the users
               | 
               | See also Google talk, Facebook messages, literally any
               | other thing that was once open access ever by a big
               | company. That racist Twitter gab is an isolated Mastodon
               | install last I heard if you want to see this in action,
               | though I wouldn't recommend going there
        
           | rapnie wrote:
           | > doesn't solve any problems for a typical user.
           | 
           | Mentioning "Federation" as a feature will not be very
           | appealing to the average user, indeed. It is more of a
           | technical concept. But there are features that derive from an
           | app being federated.
           | 
           | Ever heard people complain they were suddenly banned for no
           | apparent reason, and have no means to get it fixed? In a
           | federated service you may just go to another instance (and in
           | future migrating / controlling your own content will be
           | easy).
           | 
           | A big centralized platform has a single ToS, and algorithms
           | throw random people from the entire userbase at you. In a
           | federated system you can choose a server with rules / ToS
           | that appeals to you. An individual server is like a community
           | with own culture and topics of interest.
           | 
           | Wanna escape ads, algorithmic driven UI? Choose any federated
           | server (currently fediverse is ad-free). Server adds ads
           | later on? Migrate to one that does not.
        
           | rektide wrote:
           | this worship of solving user problems pretends like the one
           | or two companies running the big huge massive winner take all
           | monopoly walled-garden networks are going to keep being good,
           | going to keep doing things in the users best interest, are
           | going to make better and better product.
           | 
           | it's a world view that does not click with how i view
           | software development & progress. i see long term stewartship
           | as hard, see most walled gardems eventually succumb to
           | acceued bad decisions or events that they become saddled
           | with, or poorly steered into, or simply not aligned with
           | their users on. federation isnt an answer to a problem, it is
           | the theory that many problems require more than one ultra-
           | massified uber-answer. federation says that problems and
           | their answers require experimemtation, require adaption. it
           | believes in protocols to agree upon & communicate across
           | people & communities with. federation is freedom to generate
           | new interfaces & extend capabilities.
           | 
           | i think it's dangerous to only ask "what can help the user
           | now". technical environments need to be diverse &
           | potentiated, need to have creative possibilities open.
           | federation gives us both a quick, well known, easy to adopt,
           | easy-to-host users & communities basis, and gives us the
           | liberty to keep exploring further. i would trade these
           | liberties for no products, and i think users over time will
           | see how trapped they are & appreciate living life not under
           | the auspices of ultra-massified software titans, but instead,
           | with smaller, more adaptive, more community based (but
           | interoperating) federations.
        
         | gverrilla wrote:
         | I may be wrong, but all I have seen "federated" resembles one
         | of the worst and most harmful websites ever created (twitter),
         | which is really disappointing and disgusting. Likewise, the
         | "blockchain" scene talks about innovation all day but the bulk
         | of their creation is boring and dated, recreating the
         | banking/finance scene using new tech with minor changes. Back
         | in the day, people thought machine guns would produce peace!
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | bottled_poe wrote:
       | Just had a look. Unsurprisingly, the demographic of the user base
       | is skewed to IT professionals (at least at this time). Whether
       | that's a good thing is subjective, but I personally want broader
       | perspectives on literature. I think this will be a difficult
       | problem for bookwyrm to overcome.
        
         | Shorel wrote:
         | With less than a thousand users, we can't really say anything
         | about the demographic of the user base.
         | 
         | Let it grow for a few months and see.
        
         | Krasnol wrote:
         | We get this service early and for free. To advertise this to
         | the general public should be the least we can to.
        
         | uncomputation wrote:
         | I honestly wonder sometimes if HN is the best place to market a
         | lot of the things that get posted here. A lot of people on HN
         | are developers and I think they post here because it's _their_
         | community but in reality it's actually not a good fit for a lot
         | of products. Maybe some dev/SAAS things, but something like
         | Goodreads? That should be marketed to readers, not developers.
         | The only reason it gets posted here is because the development
         | side is interested (supposedly) in the decentralized technical
         | nature of the product, but that actually matters very little to
         | most people.
        
           | onionisafruit wrote:
           | I don't see this as marketing to get new users. It's more
           | showing peers something interesting you found or are working
           | on. Of course they'll be happy to get some users from hn, but
           | I suspect that isn't really the goal here.
        
             | atatatat wrote:
             | That this isn't implicitly clear at minimum says a lot
             | about general shift in tone.
        
         | irrational wrote:
         | This is a problem with any similar thing that already has a
         | heavily established site. One is my hobbies is boardgames. The
         | longest running site is Board Game Geek (BGG). It's age shows
         | (this was the front page of the site until very recently
         | https://www.boardgamegeek.com/dashboard), but more modern
         | competitors have had issues trying to get a foot hold. The most
         | recent one is Board Game Atlas. They have tried all kinds of
         | things to lure users, such as contests, but I'm sure the
         | percentage of people using it is a fraction to BGG.
        
           | fsiefken wrote:
           | hi irrational, one of my hobbies too, currently playing hive
           | solo, mint works an warp's edge). I understood the bgg site
           | was overhauled a few years ago to make it more responsive. I
           | suppose it's more modern and looked better on mobile but I
           | liked the old dated interface as well. How does it show it's
           | age and what would you have wanted? I subscribe to a few
           | geeklists and have my favorite game a subforums bookmarked. I
           | rarely go through the homepage but if I do I like the
           | serendipity of it all. So much content. A "digital garden"
           | where the flowers are the games
        
       | counternotions wrote:
       | Very excited to see a decentralized alternative to Amazon-owned
       | Goodreads & LibraryThing, the latter which I recently learned is
       | 40%-owned by Amazon through a subsidiary AbeBooks.
       | 
       | I'm not too familiar with the fediverse model. I noticed that
       | registration is closed on the primary instance
       | bookwyrm.social.[1] Is the ideal use case of bookwyrm for each
       | user to host their own instance? Like this one:
       | https://book.dansmonorage.blue/
       | 
       | As a user, I wouldn't want to sign up on someone's hobbyist
       | bookwyrm instance only for them to shut it down later and lose
       | all my data.
       | 
       | 1. https://docs.joinbookwyrm.com/instances.html
        
         | matthberg wrote:
         | That info is out of date, bookwyrm.social is in open
         | registration now. A more accurate list of instances is
         | available here: https://joinbookwyrm.com/instances/. I signed
         | up on bookwyrm.social (here: https://bookwyrm.social), though
         | it took a notably long time to receive the email confirmation
         | message.
        
           | Krasnol wrote:
           | The whole instance is quite slow now.
           | 
           | Email took something around 20min for me.
        
             | commoner wrote:
             | Probably the HN effect. Give it a day and I'd expect the
             | site to speed up as the traffic falls.
        
               | Krasnol wrote:
               | Yes, I'm pretty sure that's it but it was still working.
               | 
               | Just a bit slow.
        
               | bookwyrm-social wrote:
               | yes, it's running slower than usual because of the
               | traffic spike (more registrations in an hour than over
               | the last two months)
        
         | input_sh wrote:
         | > As a user, I wouldn't want to sign up on someone's hobbyist
         | bookwyrm instance only for them to shut it down later and lose
         | all my data.
         | 
         | Mastodon goes around this problem by only linking to servers
         | that adhere to their covenant[0], which includes sane stuff
         | like daily backups, >1 person with access to the server,
         | minimum of 3 months notice before shutdown, and moderation.
         | 
         | So, any community you see here[1] promises to give you a
         | notice. I'm assuming other software will eventually reach the
         | number of servers where something similar makes sense to
         | implement.
         | 
         | [0] https://joinmastodon.org/covenant
         | 
         | [1] https://joinmastodon.org/communities
        
       | brachika wrote:
       | Goodreads is amazing at what it is, which is an IMDB equivalent
       | for books. Yeah, it is neglected, outdated and owned by a shady
       | megacorporation, but I don't see any viable alternatives as of
       | now.
        
         | deck4rd wrote:
         | I think Letterboxd is becoming a viable alternative to IMDb, so
         | I don't see why one can't come along for Goodreads too.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | patchtopic wrote:
       | the signup confirmation email for BooKWyrm seems to have stopped
       | working.
        
         | bookwyrm-social wrote:
         | It's just running very slowly! There have been a lot of signups
         | and it maxed out what mailgun will send. If you don't get an
         | email you can contact the instance admin directly
        
       | hirako2000 wrote:
       | "A portion of the proceeds go towards the Yunakin land tax."
       | 
       | An _Anti Corporate_ organisation adopting a very corporate
       | measure in my view.
       | 
       | If taxes could lead to justice, then native Americans would be
       | far less prone to poverty, alcoholism and depression.
       | 
       | About the product itself, it's hard to see how this is an
       | alternative to goodreads. The federation is designed in a way
       | that silos communities. A great model for decentralised
       | moderation etc. The parallel could be made with reddit, not so
       | much with goodreads where over half of the books in existence are
       | listed, very often rated/reviewed.
        
         | rektide wrote:
         | > _The federation is designed in a way that silos communities._
         | 
         | You seem to have taken the exact opposite view of what anyone
         | in the fediverse would consider this as. This is many connected
         | communities. Not siloed. That's what "decentralized" means,
         | their very first major point on the website.
         | 
         | If there's real gaps in how federation works to connect, the
         | fediverse is happy to discuss, adapt, & adopt: bring on your
         | more specific complaints! This is supposed to be the cure for
         | silos! Everyone can run whatever they want, and we can
         | interoperate! Interoperate & co-evolve.
        
           | hirako2000 wrote:
           | Sorry I wasn't clear with what I meant stating silos. And I'm
           | all for decentralisation, and value the open effort of
           | Bookwyrm.
           | 
           | Silo: the federation aspect, from what I understand of the
           | currently hosted communities using this tech is making the
           | exploration of books contained within each federated host.
           | Maybe I am wrong in which case I will retract my critic.
           | Peertube suffers the same problem. So a constructive comment
           | would be: decentralisation is great, and if the federation
           | design bridges the gap so that information from each node in
           | the system can be searched then that's a rock solid solution
           | as a repository of books information, reviews and
           | discussions.
           | 
           | Please accept my apologise, I certainly came off as negative
           | and the comment I made was not deserved , especially
           | considering the free and open effort there.
        
             | fragileone wrote:
             | With PeerTube there's Sepia Search [1] which allows
             | searching for videos across all instances. All federated
             | networks basically need open-source, centralised search
             | engines like Sepia Search to enable users to search across
             | all federated instances.
             | 
             | [1] http://sepiasearch.org/
        
         | rektide wrote:
         | > _The federation is designed in a way that silos communities._
         | 
         | You seem to have taken the exact opposite view of what anyone
         | in the fediverse would consider this as. This is many connected
         | communities. Not siloed. That's what "decentralized" means,
         | their very first major point on the website.
         | 
         | An unfortunately limited & skeptical view. Hopefully you just
         | need to be better informed. If there's real gaps in how
         | federation works to connect, the fediverse is happy to discuss,
         | adapt, & adopt: bring on your more specific complaints! This is
         | supposed to be the cure for silos! Everyone can run whatever,
         | they want, and we can interoperate!
        
       | dsq wrote:
       | Are GoodReads/Amazon and others cool about this use of their
       | exported data? Can BookWyrm expect lawsuits? Genuinely curious,
       | not trolling.
        
         | indigo945 wrote:
         | In the EU, GDPR makes it clear that as the user, you own the
         | data. Companies are legally required to allow you to export
         | your data, also in part to create more competition among
         | platforms.
         | 
         | No idea about the US, though, where social platforms seem to
         | sometimes come with clauses that make users waive their
         | copyright (which would be unenforceable in Europe).
        
       | newbamboo wrote:
       | Will it have fake quotes too?
        
       | mathnmusic wrote:
       | GoodReads is all but dead for many. A few months ago, they
       | deprecated their API keys (without notice).
       | 
       | I started building a GoodReads-equivalent but realized that many
       | people care more about learning from multiple media formats
       | (blogs, videos, research papers, interactive explorables,
       | podcasts, courses etc) rather than simply reading books. Because
       | there are too many projects attempting to build a new GoodReads,
       | I ended up building something more oriented for multimedia
       | learners.
       | 
       | It's up and running, open-source, built with Ruby on Rails and
       | supports protocols like ActivityPub, RSS etc. There is a
       | companion browser extension, integration with Slack groups,
       | Twitter and more, and a WIP mobile app. Like GoodReads, you can
       | build your learning lists and embed them on your sites.
       | 
       | It participates in fediverse so your reviews can be broadcasted
       | to your followers on Mastodon, PeerTube etc but full federation
       | is not yet there because it has an underlying knowledge graph
       | that will need to be synchronised across instances.
       | 
       | I think many HN users may be interested in checking it out:
       | 
       | https://learnawesome.org/
       | 
       | https://github.com/learn-awesome/learn
        
         | mathnmusic wrote:
         | One of the cool things that the knowledge graph enables is that
         | you can follow "topics" and get learning resources like latest
         | research papers for THAT TOPIC in your feed - even outside the
         | main site. This is the power of ActivityPub which is really a
         | distributed pub/sub for the open Web. My motivation for
         | building this feature came from the reproducibility crisis: I
         | want to be alerted when something I believe has come under
         | question or has been falsified.
        
         | Scarblac wrote:
         | Where do you get the books from? I'm often surprised when I
         | start reading an obscure Dutch second hand book that Goodreads
         | has it. Is the ISBN database open data?
        
           | mathnmusic wrote:
           | OpenLibrary (relatively less known project by Internet
           | Archive) is doing good work on collecting identifiers for
           | books and works, which LearnAwesome leverages. But if you
           | check in app/utilities/book.rb, you will notice that we have
           | our own data enrichment pipeline to work with multiple
           | sources.
        
           | input_sh wrote:
           | If you mean ISBNs in general, that's not available. However
           | plenty of libraries around the world do publish their own
           | list of ISBNs, and you'll find dozens of datasets and search
           | engines that combine those into one.
           | 
           | You're gonna have to move away from western languages
           | entirely to find a book that's not available in one of those.
        
           | ZeroGravitas wrote:
           | Goodreads is owned by Amazon, and a lot of the data in
           | various digital sources (both real and correct and random or
           | mistaken) seem to come from people listing physical books for
           | sale through Amazon. (Library catalogues are another common
           | source)
           | 
           | The ISBN codes seems to be in some weird legal gray area.
           | 
           | The codes can be broken down so you can tell (to some degree)
           | which language, geographic region and publisher was involved
           | and whether the ISBN is valid (as in meets a checksum
           | constraint) and has been "issued" (a continually updating
           | list) managed in a decentralised manner but since it's an
           | older system, it wasn't ever really designed for this kind of
           | usage.
           | 
           | It also hits the problem, that these days you care a little
           | less about the actual physical object, which ISBN was
           | designed around, but certainly a trove of data hidden there.
        
         | personjerry wrote:
         | GoodReads isn't about learning though. It's about books. I
         | think there's value and potential in the niche you've chosen. I
         | want to point out that the "learning" niche is very different
         | than the "book review" niche and comes with its own set of very
         | strong competitors.
        
           | leetrout wrote:
           | This is all new to me. Who competes in this space? Or what
           | are some good keywords to search with?
        
             | bogwog wrote:
             | Learning? Just search for "learn <subject>" and you'll see
             | a bunch. I remember my university had a partnership with
             | one called Lynda.com, but that seems to have been acquired
             | by LinkedIn.
        
         | leetrout wrote:
         | Wow you've got a lot going on. Do you have any stats on usage
         | you feel like sharing? I'm curious how people have discovered
         | this and how it has grown since this seems outside any circles
         | I am around except HN.
        
         | avnigo wrote:
         | I recently came across the API issue too; from their page on
         | APIs [0]
         | 
         | > Goodreads no longer issues new developer keys for our public
         | developer API and plans to retire the current version of these
         | tools.
         | 
         | I generally find that I trust their book ratings more than any
         | other sites, though, seeing as they are user-generated, and
         | also given the amount of users being in the 10s of millions.
         | 
         | BookWyrm seems pretty fantastic and promising from what I see,
         | but I don't know that it would attract the current Goodreads
         | user. I'm really hoping it gets some traction.
         | 
         | [0]: https://help.goodreads.com/s/article/Does-Goodreads-
         | support-...
        
           | vosper wrote:
           | > I generally find that I trust their book ratings more than
           | any other sites, though, seeing as they are user-generated
           | 
           | There are far too many reviews for advanced copies seeded by
           | publishers, though, and there's no consistent disclosure or
           | way to filter these out.
           | 
           | That, and the rating system is far too simplistic. When
           | you're optimizing for engagement then having users spend a
           | lot of time reading reviews is probably good. It's not
           | optimized for time spent to find a good book to read, though.
        
             | avnigo wrote:
             | Agreed. I was more so referring to the law of large
             | numbers, hoping that from their large user base it's more
             | likely to get a more representative rating than a site with
             | a smaller user base maybe suffering from some sampling
             | bias.
        
       | streamofdigits wrote:
       | at first sight very promising: an online application that is
       | catering to specialized interests (hence very specific data /
       | internal business logic) yet able to be both decentralized
       | (multiple instances) and integrating via activitypub with other
       | (social media type) platforms in the fediverse
       | 
       | the moment the open source community realises that open source is
       | not just about freeing up things conjured up in proprietary
       | context but opens entirely new universes will be a tipping point
       | of sorts...
        
       | Shorel wrote:
       | Heads up: The GoodReads export takes a long time.
       | 
       | I'm still waiting for mine to be delivered.
        
         | bookwyrm-social wrote:
         | There are two types of data exports from GoodReads - a full
         | data export, and a csv download. The csv download is what you
         | want, and it is generally very quick
         | (https://www.goodreads.com/review/import)
        
           | Shorel wrote:
           | Thank you, I confused them both.
        
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