[HN Gopher] Kei Car
___________________________________________________________________
Kei Car
Author : tomcam
Score : 106 points
Date : 2021-09-04 13:03 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| [deleted]
| CalChris wrote:
| Not to be confused with the K car.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_platform
| learc83 wrote:
| Aha! That must be what the Barenaked Ladies are referring to
| when they say K-car in "If I had a Million Dollars". I always
| wondered about that.
| julienfr112 wrote:
| How does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy compare to
| those ? Why is it not exported to Japan as a keicar ?
| numpad0 wrote:
| Something like double the width and 5-10x horsepower.
|
| Also can't quite remember but there was something that made
| Twizy don't qualify as anything. Nissan ran a car sharing
| "experiment" using Twizy but exemptions had to be made to get
| plates.
| rsynnott wrote:
| That's not really a car at all; it wouldn't quite fit the
| category. That said, they seem to be available in Japan.
| glogla wrote:
| No mention of very similar (formerly) Eastern German Multicar
| [1], staple of road and park maintenance crews anywhere in
| Central and Eastern Europe.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicar
| baybal2 wrote:
| When I lived in Vladivostok, we had all kinds of Japanese
| strangeness in excess: Cappuccinos, Copens, Beats, Autozams...
| etc
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| I've noticed a LOT of interesting support/maintenance content
| from Siberian folks on various Japanese car forums. Things like
| Toyota Chasers, which are bullet-proof reliable drift
| sedans....but I wouldn't expect them to handle shitty Russian
| roads well.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Famously unreliable undercarriage, factory tie rods,
| driveshaft snap like sticks.
|
| Yes, but kids like them. The cheapest car to put an enormous
| turbo.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| >>>Famously unreliable undercarriage, factory tie rods,
| driveshaft snap like sticks.
|
| Yeah they work great on immaculate Japanese roads, where we
| usually only kill clutches and maybe transmissions. I would
| expect Hiluxes and FJ Cruisers to be better suited to
| Russia but those are typically at a higher price point.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I had one of these (a Daihatsu 'Copen' 1st gen), great fun on the
| road but you really feel a bit fragile in traffic, especially
| when navigating in and out of streams of longhaul rigs. Great
| fuel economy and incredible handling, if I could get another one
| I probably would but Daihatsu pulled out of Europe and that left
| me with a pretty bad taste.
| jamesbrock wrote:
| I have a Suzuki Palette kei minivan and I love it. It cost $8000
| and I've driven it for nine years and it has never broken down.
| It has tall ceilings and huge windows and it seats four. I can
| fold down the back seats and haul sofas and refrigerators. It has
| continuous variable automatic transmission and gets 40
| miles/gallon in the city. It has decent acceleration when fully
| loaded going uphill in a headwind at freeway speeds. It's only
| sold inside Japan.
| Lammy wrote:
| Regular Car Reviews have showcased several of these:
|
| - 1993 Suzuki Cappuccino Limited:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtWUbEvapRM
|
| - 1991 Honda Beat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_EfLbWlZn4
|
| - 1992 Mazda Autozam AZ-1:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVy1ciP_ik
|
| - 1988 Honda Acty Street Kei Van:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_T4Lr0uu8
|
| Warning: this channel has a puerile sense of humor. Probably
| NSFW.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| In theory, these are about as resource-efficient as an ICE-
| powered commuter vehicle can get.
|
| In reality....they are unreliable little shitboxes, and I hate
| being stuck behind them on a hill, or on the expressway, or
| saddled with one as a loaner when my daily driver is in a shop
| for maintenance. They are often geared such that driving one at
| any speed over 80kph feels like you are risking Rapid Unscheduled
| Disassembly. Unless it's one of the crazy sporty variants, such
| as a Suzuki Alto Works or a Suzuki Cappuccino. Those are cool.
| Oh, and the kei pick-up trucks are very useful little
| vehicles....probably what half of American pickup truck drivers
| should have instead of their underutilized monster trucks (F-150,
| Dodge Ram, etc..).
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Wikipedia adds that there are now electric ones. The article
| doesn't say whether the electric ones are shitboxen though.
| kalleboo wrote:
| Modern ones feel totally fine at highway speeds. We have a 2017
| CVT Suzuki Spacia and it feels totally safe (not wandering
| steering or vibrations or anything), normal, brakes still stop
| it quickly, and the engine is not strained on the highway at
| 120 km/h (of course the _crash safety_ of these things is
| terrible due to the lack of crumple zones so you _should not
| drive at that speed_ , but it _feels_ totally fine, to the
| point where I 've accidentally started speeding without
| noticing)
|
| The loaners we've had during shaken are all like 10+ years old
| and terrible, just as you describe.
| smoyer wrote:
| One of the local car dealers here in central PA (US) often has
| one or two of the tiny Kei pick-up trucks for sale ... truly
| perfect for some of the business who only drive around town (as
| noted, lower speeds are a key).
| emodendroket wrote:
| American pick-up drivers are by and large not buying their cars
| for their utility.
| Dah00n wrote:
| It's penis envy purchasing.
| SECProto wrote:
| > In reality....they are unreliable little shitboxes, and I
| hate being stuck behind them on a hill, or on the expressway,
| or saddled with one as a loaner when my daily driver is in a
| shop for maintenance. They are often geared such that driving
| one at any speed over 80kph feels like you are risking Rapid
| Unscheduled Disassembly.
|
| I disagree with this pretty strongly. While I agree they aren't
| good above 80, that doesn't equate to them being "unreliable
| little shitboxes". They're very very reliable (rarely need any
| maintenance).
|
| Also, everything except expressways have a speed limit of 60,
| so you can use it no problem. Going up the mountains they can
| do fine if you rev a bit high, just makes them fuel
| inefficient.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| I'm comparing their reliability to things like older Toyotas
| and Hondas, which are reliable far past any reasonable
| intended service life. Keis seem to function perfectly for a
| few years, and then suffer a number of spectacular mechanical
| failures suddenly, like a BMW. It's why my other half ditched
| her Daihatsu Latte for a Nissan Note.
| SECProto wrote:
| Yeah, I dunno - I had a 13 year old Daihatsu with >200,00km
| (which is a damn lot for japan)... Never had to do any
| maintenance. Had several friends with similar age keis who
| also had no issues.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| > _Also, everything except expressways have a speed limit of
| 60, so you can use it no problem._
|
| Not sure where in Japan you've been driving, but my
| experience is that sticking to the posted speed limit on most
| roads makes you a hazard to navigation - particularly outside
| of cities.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| Japanese speed limits are in dire need of reform. Police need
| to prove that you were speeding so every speed limit is set
| 20km/h under the de facto speed limit for the road.
|
| Driving at 60km/h on a road where people expect you to drive
| 80 or 90 just makes people mad and likely to do something
| stupid.
| sharpneli wrote:
| How do they prove it? Unless it's by receipt from a radar
| gun which is how it works everywhere else.
|
| We also require receipt, and there is no shenanigans with
| speed limits.
| Dah00n wrote:
| >Police need to prove that you were speeding
|
| It is the same in all societies with a working justice
| system (well maybe not if there's not a working democracy
| too).
| taneq wrote:
| I wouldn't call a justice system 'working' if it subverts
| its own processes and traps its citizens with
| unreasonable laws and inconsistent enforcement.
| SECProto wrote:
| As said, they have no problem going 80, so they're fine on
| everything except expressways.
| willvarfar wrote:
| Somewhat similar are "moped cars" which can be driven with a
| moped license in many European countries. This can bring the age
| when youth can drive down to 15 or 16 years old.
|
| Most of the manufacturers I am familiar with are French, and lots
| of 15 year olds drive them in Sweden.
|
| They have tiny Diesel engines and are limited to two seats, very
| light weight and max 45kph.
|
| I'm Sweden there is another class of car where you convert a
| normal sized car into something that is legally a tractor. These
| can also be driven at 15 years old, and are limited to just 30kph
| but are much cheaper than moped cars.
| Hamuko wrote:
| The moped cars are super unsafe. They're designed to be driven
| inside a city, but no one in a city actually needs one, so they
| all go to kids that live in either suburbs or in more rural
| places. Then they're driven on roads where all of the other
| cars are bigger and going faster.
|
| There was a case a couple of years back where someone suicidal
| was driving his Mercedes-Benz van and (according to his
| statement) thought that the oncoming lights were from a truck
| and drove towards it. However, it was actually a moped car.
|
| This is what happened to the van:
| https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1920/a659907378c54818bbc915e...
|
| And this is the moped car:
| https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1920/2965ca321c7a47758ca5a81...
|
| Van driver got away with minor injuries, the two youths inside
| the moped car died instantly.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Seeing that another comment says that Kei cars are no good over
| 80, I think there's a wide difference between the two.
| willvarfar wrote:
| The speed of moped cars and "tractors" is limited by law, not
| physics.
|
| Moped cars are very similar to the kei cars that I have seen.
|
| Swedish tractors are something else: I have seen 15 year olds
| driving Porsche "tractors" in Sweden.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| They look similar but are very different. Moped cars have
| essentially lawn mower engines in them, 3-6 kW or something
| like that (the limit is 50 cc iirc). Kei cars have around
| 50 kW engines (with probably more than one cylinder), which
| is very much "real car" territory.
| willvarfar wrote:
| Moped cars can be 500cc and some models are sold in other
| countries limited to 80kph.
|
| They remind me of kei cars. They aren't kei cars. The
| biggest difference apart from two seats is noise; moped
| cars in Sweden have a weight limit of 350kg and there is
| zero sound proofing!
| Dah00n wrote:
| I don't agree that they are in any way related. It's like
| saying a SUV is like a real truck. Sure if the SUV is big
| and the truck is tiny. Those "moped cars" are more closely
| related to a bicycle than a car.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I've been wanting a Kei mini truck for around the farm here. Just
| for picking up lumber, manure, etc. no long highway trips. Just
| mostly local and on the property. The sides on a Kei truck
| generally drop for easy loading and unloading, they're fuel
| efficient, they're easy to park, easy move through a lumberyard,
| and their wheels are centred further back so they actually handle
| bigger loads than you'd think at first. And they're neat. And
| look easy to work on. And I bet I could do a fairly cheap EV
| conversion without a lot of hassle, to add to the 500 other
| unfinished projects I have here.
|
| The problem is that by the time they're imported and everything
| else they end up being at least $10k CAD for a 20+ year old
| vehicle.
|
| I don't want a big pickup truck. They're too big and not as
| practical. None of the domestic manufacturers make anything
| reasonably sized. In the 90s my parents got my sister and I a
| crappy old 84 Ford Ranger and that was totally fine. Nothing that
| small exists anymore. The new Ford Ranger is a truckosaurus like
| everything else.
|
| I wish the North American appetite for Canyonero(tm) would stop
| already.
| Gravityloss wrote:
| I bet this would gather some attention:
| http://www.piaggiocommercialvehicles.com/it_IT/modelli/ape/a...
| tdeck wrote:
| Isn't it a problem that the steering wheel would be on the
| right side? Japan drives on the left.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Right hand drive can be road legal here. Not all companies
| will insure it but many will. Would take some getting used
| to, but I've seen people driving them around.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| > I've been wanting a Kei mini truck for around the farm here.
| Just for picking up lumber, manure, etc. no long highway trips.
| Just mostly local and on the property.
|
| Have you looked at ATVs and pseudo-Jeeps like the Mahindra
| Roxor or the Kioti?
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Well, those are fine for on-property, but not going places,
| as at least around here they're not road/hwy legal.
|
| I have a compact tractor, I want something for moving stuff
| around that is either off-property (compost, manure, lumber,
| straw bales, etc.) or not suited for tractor/trailer.
|
| I do have an SUV (Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is cool
| cuz it has a 12 amp outlet in the back for powering tools
| etc) but it can't fit plywood in the back and I wouldn't put
| dirty stuff in it, cuz it's my wife's :-)
| fnord77 wrote:
| > or not suited for tractor/trailer.
|
| what about a small utility trailer? Cheap as dirt at harbor
| freight, etc.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I have a nice aluminum trailer but I hate using it.
| Driving with a trailer sucks, and pulling one into the
| lumber yard is a pain is the worst.
|
| Spoiled, am I. This is what happens when you combine a
| FAANG salary with rural hobbies ;-)
| sbierwagen wrote:
| ATVs seem to be street legal in Ontario if they have a
| license plate:
| http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/driver/drive-ATV.shtml
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| FWIW Ford is coming out with the the Maverick, and Hyundai's
| coming out with the Santa Cruz.
|
| Not mini trucks, not as small as an 84, but they're both still
| smaller then the current batch of trucks and the base MSRP for
| the Maverick is $25,900 CAD.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Yeah I did see that, though it looks like the hybrid option
| is just a soft hybrid, no plug/PHEV and no EV option, right?
|
| I feel like if I'm going to pay the money for a new vehicle,
| I'll replace my Volt with an EV truck. But only once there is
| an option below $45k CAD. Which could be a long time.
| winrid wrote:
| Why not get a side-by-side?
|
| You can also still get old trucks in great shape. Think old
| Toyota, Rangers, last gen Colorado.. Set aside $300 a year to
| keep it running, pretty much cheaper than any alternative.
| toast0 wrote:
| I used to have a 2007 Ranger which was the last generation
| before they disappeared, it was smaller than the current one,
| but still looked a lot bigger than the 80s Rangers. Now I've
| got a 2003 Chevy S-10 which is the last generation of those. A
| bit smaller than my Ranger was, but still bigger than an 80s
| S-10.
|
| Unfortunately, US fuel efficiency standards killed the small
| pickup. You can't make them efficient enough to hit the numbers
| when they're small, so they get bigger. If EV trucks sell, I
| wonder if we'll get an actually small truck again in the 2nd or
| 3rd wave; fuel efficiency standards won't matter, but it would
| need to sell enough to justify a different design.
| kqr2 wrote:
| Ford is introducing the Maverick which is a compact hybrid
| pickup truck.
| toast0 wrote:
| I would love to see this with a regular cab and a 6 foot
| bed. The Maverick bed is 4.5 feet, which just doesn't seem
| as useful to me; I've had plenty of things that didn't
| quite fit in a 6 foot bed, but were ok with the tailgate
| down and strapped in; they'd be a lot more precarious with
| a 4.5 foot bed.
| winrid wrote:
| The current gen Colorado isn't too big and has a six foot
| bed. It can be had for only $21k too.
|
| Source: owner, and I use one for towing a vehicle
| trailer.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Yes, not being able to move a piece of plywood (even with
| the bed down) would completely defeat the purpose of a
| small truck for me.
|
| I'd rather give up cab space than bed space.
| Gracana wrote:
| I think it's possible to load 4x8 sheets by flipping the
| gate halfway down and putting 2x4s across the bed using
| the pockets in the sides. Good enough of you need the
| capability for an occasional project.
| kqr2 wrote:
| Photo in this article:
| https://www.autoblog.com/2021/06/08/ford-maverick-flex-
| bed/
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Not bad. And it's not bad looking overall, really. For a
| truck.
|
| Now if they'd only make it with a J1772 plug instead of
| as a soft hybrid.
| turbocon wrote:
| Some others called it out, but the Ford Maverick hybrid is
| coming out that starts at $20k and is about the size of the old
| rangers.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| When I was in college, my friend was driving an early 80s Ford
| Ranger. It was crazy how much smaller it was then a modern
| pickup...
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Yeah it was also great in high school in the winter when I
| would miss a day of school because I couldn't get the thing
| up the driveway. Best excuse ever, underpowered rear wheel
| drive in a Canadian winter.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| He kept a pair of brake drums in the bed in winter, but
| this was Indiana which has milder winters then most of
| Canada
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Yeah this was in central Alberta, pretty brutal winters.
| And my parents had a bit of a steep driveway.
|
| These days I live in southern Ontario which is about the
| same as Indiana for climate.
|
| One thing about that old Ford Ranger is that the cab was
| small and the engine hot and it heated up faster in the
| winter than any other vehicle I've ever had.
| tomcam wrote:
| How big is your farm? I've had the same idea, although I
| eventually went with a 1999 GMC Savana auctioned off the county
| because it was only $5000 early this year. I'm in Seattle where
| it's wet all the time so I like the fact that it is in closed.
| And it can easily fit 4 x 8 plywood in the cargo area.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Just 6.5 acres, half wooded + market garden + hobby vineyard.
| I've considered local beater trucks, but I'll wait until I
| can get farm plates (lower insurnace) which requires us
| making a little more revenue on the farm biz first.
| profile53 wrote:
| As someone who owns one, they're much cheaper if you import it
| yourself -- the importers charge a massive markup. I think I
| ended up at about 5k USD for a 25 year old one in the US. Might
| be different import fees for Canada.
| jdblair wrote:
| 1980's Volkswagen pickup was perfect for stuff like this.
| TYPE_FASTER wrote:
| We had one. It was great. My dad bolted a wooden crossbar to
| the back of the bed, and an old metal crossbar over the cab.
| We used to carry a small sailboat, windsurfer, etc. Great for
| dump runs, etc.
|
| I'd like a truck like that now. An electric version of the
| new Ford Maverick would be perfect.
| gnopgnip wrote:
| A kawasaki mule is pretty comparable to a kei car and you can
| buy one new
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Not permitted on the roads.
| glanard_frugner wrote:
| those are pretty common on roads in rural areas
| h2odragon wrote:
| 70's Datsun pickups were good for that too.
|
| In the mid-south US, those Kei trucks circulate at around $5k
| right now for "beater" bottom priced ones. $10k would be a
| decent price for one with "no known issues at the moment".
|
| The "gator / golf cart" things from Polaris, Kubota, etc;
| jumped up 4 wheeler things, are nibbling at the bottom of that
| niche too; without ever really getting into a satisfactory
| fulfillment of it. Them things are the bane of the roads around
| here, people just assume its ok to tool around the highway with
| the dogs and kids piled on.
| Severian wrote:
| For sure. I have a huge 1995 Ford F-150 XL that the wife and I
| mainly use for camping and kayaking. Needed something, and I
| was able to snag it for $1800. Otherwise looking at 10k+ for
| something newer.
|
| It has horrible gas mileage, but I guess that's offset by
| pretty cheap repair costs. Parts are abundant. Parking is a
| real chore.
|
| However, I've wanted to downsize, and one of the these Kei
| trucks would probably fit our use case 90% of the time. Just
| more work packing the camping gear and getting a kayak mounted
| safely.
| tjr225 wrote:
| Kei class cars are not usually legal for highway use in the
| USA.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I think they're legal here in Canadia, but I've also heard
| they are _highly unpleasant_ on the highway.
| profile53 wrote:
| If they're older than 25 years old, they can be driven on
| the highway in the USA because they're exempt from EPA
| and crash safety standards. That said, I've driven one
| 10k miles mostly highway and I would not recommend it.
| The car tops out at 120kmh at the redline and is very
| light and top heavy, so it can almost be blown over in
| the window.
| Gracana wrote:
| It varies by state. Limiting them to roads with speeds
| <50 or so is somewhat common.
| nabilhat wrote:
| Depends on the state.
|
| In Oregon, for example, the DMV arbitrarily refuses to
| register them for any use whatsoever. It's not a law or
| regulation, it's more like an internal opinion or rumor
| that turned into a standard practice of refusal. They'll
| still happily give you plates and registration for your
| even smaller and slower Fiat 500, Subaru 360, Isetta, etc.
| - but if a DMV employee assumes it's an imported Kei car,
| you're out of luck.
|
| Because it's not a defined rule (despite mentioning it on
| their website!) even non-Kei Japanese imports are risky to
| register. Sometimes a DMV employee will see a car they
| assume is Kei or close enough because it looks funny, and
| they'll write down the plate number and void the
| registration later.
|
| If you're a business and register it with your business,
| that seems to mollify the DMV for some reason. A few Kei
| pickups and vans with Oregon plates and business logos have
| been roaming the local streets.
|
| It's also somewhat common to see Kei cars driving around in
| Oregon from neighboring states. Totally legal for highway
| use in Oregon, the Oregon DMV just won't register them.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| It seems more than an internal opinion or rumor:
|
| https://www.oregon.gov/odot/DMV/pages/vehicle/vehicletype
| s.a...
|
| It has it's own section: "Kei Vehicles/Mini-Trucks"
|
| "Many of these vehicles can be imported. They can be
| titled in Oregon, but cannot get registration because
| they were not primarily manufactured for U.S. roads or
| highways."
|
| Perhaps it is still arbitrary, not supported by a
| specific regulation (but I don't know that). Still, they
| aren't hiding their unwillingness to register them.
| dluan wrote:
| In Hawaii we have quite a few of them around, mainly Honda Acty
| and Suzuki Carry trucks, with the occasional kei van too. They
| are adorable and perfect for putting people and surfboards in the
| back.
|
| On the other side of spectrum, we also have lots of huge lifted
| trucks ("want ride in lifted yota?"), but usually those are more
| country side. Closer to town, more kei cars.
| bdz wrote:
| Not Japan but there are some nice chinese EV microcars, I'd
| really get one of these if they were available in Europe. But
| most likely it wouldn't pass any EU regulatory laws, or at least
| not for this price point (~$4500)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6GjphV4DCU
| desdiv wrote:
| From the Wikipedia article, it sounds like a modified EU-
| compliant variant is coming to EU.
|
| >In 2021, a Latvian-based company Dartz (known for their
| armoured SUVs) announced a plan to sell the Hongguang Mini EV
| as the Dartz FreZe Nikrob, with a starting price in certain
| European countries at around EUR9,999 and assembled in the EU
| by Lithuanian company, Nikrob.
| jonplackett wrote:
| When I went to Japan I knew the cliche that everything is
| miniaturised - but it really is! They even have 2/3 size 4x4s
| with the tyre on the back but the size of a VW golf. Wish they
| sold them in Europe
| Dah00n wrote:
| They sorta do. Suzuki have one (Jimny?). Lada have some really
| good ones for what it is. They can beat the shit out of most US
| SUVs in most terrain and are absolutely hilarious!
| jonplackett wrote:
| Gonna check those out!
| roter wrote:
| Reminded me of the 80s "K-car" [0]. They were everywhere, man.
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_platform
| numpad0 wrote:
| I could not find a nice summary article in English so had not
| posted this, but there is a recently published patent from
| Daihatsu showing a Kei EV[1].
|
| The claim is that the power electronics modules stacked
| vertically allows shorter cables to be used, but what I think is
| interesting is the drawings of a ladder frame car with
| transmission shaped drive unit and battery pack suspended between
| frames. A typical Kei delivery van body sits atop all. This looks
| more optimized for lightweight FF/MF city cars, than other setups
| like skateboard architectures used in FR EVs or fuel tank shaped
| batteries in compliance EVs.
|
| 1:
| https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/c1800/PU/JP-2021-115916/81...
| baybal2 wrote:
| I believe it's mostly for very low voltage batteries, otherwise
| the cable length shouldn't be that much of a problem.
|
| I believe it makes a lot of sense to invert the structure, and
| place motor behind because they have a solid axle already, and
| prevent it becoming too rear heavy given it's a cargo van.
|
| I also can't really imagine how power electronics, moreover for
| such a small car can get so big.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Patent claims are clear as Soviet era Sci-Fi films so that's
| not worth discussing IMO. What I found interesting is this is
| a preview of 1st-gen purpose built Kei EV platform and that
| it has motor compartment directly below the seats.
|
| For your second and third point, this is for small, cost
| efficient delivery vehicles. Consolidating as much active
| components into an "engine room" and close to driver's seat
| is likely given higher priority than pursuing driving
| dynamics. Like if they could cut the cost for brake lights by
| replacing them with plastic light guides they absolutely
| will.
| baybal2 wrote:
| They already get a consolidated electronics block on the
| rear of a vehicle. Sometimes battery, vfd, and motor in one
| large sealed casing.
|
| FWD EV can't be cheaper than RWD one just for the part
| count.
| Lio wrote:
| I'm amazed to see that there's a model of the Caterham 7, "the
| car that's too fast to race", that fits into this category.
|
| Shows that small cars don't have to be boring or slow.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterham_7
| jacquesm wrote:
| The Copen definitely wasn't slow either, despite relatively
| limited horsepower the total weight was a bit over 700 kg and
| the engine ran all the way to 12K revs (4 cyl 700cc, it's like
| a motorcycle engine). Topped out at 185 on the GPS, which is
| plenty fast for something that small. It also does right angles
| at 70 or so which is quite interesting :)
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Apparently there's a Kei truck for sale right now on SFBay
| Craigslist:
|
| https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/ctd/d/san-mateo-1996-subaru...
|
| What to tell the wife? Hmmm....
| OneEyedRobot wrote:
| Unless you live on Catalina Island, my bet is that you can't
| license it for the street.
|
| It's a shame. I'd own one in a minute set up for snow days.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Once it's 25 years old, you can import anything you want
| and register it. That kei is a 96.
|
| https://helpspanish.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-278?language=
| e...
|
| In Canada, the rule is just 15 years, which is why you'll
| see more Keis here
| bsagdiyev wrote:
| There's the 25 year rule and then there is California. In
| NC I can import any 25 year old car, when I was in CA it
| still needed to get a sign off from the state BAR. They
| work on a different set of rules. You can register it in
| another state without the hassle you just risk getting
| tickets for not being CA registered.
| OneEyedRobot wrote:
| >There's the 25 year rule and then there is California.
|
| Exactly.
|
| I remember in the DMV regulations that there's a special
| dispensation for Kei cars that essentially defines
| Catalina. 'An island over xxx square miles in size' sort
| of thing.
|
| It used to be big fun here (before they went to 1975 and
| earlier gasoline engined cars going to not being
| inspected) if you had a car that was incapable of passing
| even when new.
|
| I'm actually quite surprised that they don't check date
| codes on tires and require new seat belts every so many
| years.
| bsagdiyev wrote:
| It surprises me honestly. North Carolina does emissions
| and a safety inspection, there are quite a few cars on
| California roads that would definitely not be considered
| road legal here. Although to be fair our 25 (20 maybe?)
| year emissions exemption is rolling, so cars that turn 25
| that new year are now exempt as well. It's kind of nice.
| linksnapzz wrote:
| California does smog, but no safety inspection that I
| know of. You can have a car with the brake lines repaired
| with duct tape, but as long as the check engine light
| isn't lit and it passes smog, you're good to go.
|
| I met a guy at the La Jolla Concours d'Elegance who had
| imported an ('82?) Trabant. He had gotten it registered
| with the CA license plate "IRNCRTN". Apparently, Cal DMV
| saw that it was over twenty-five years old, gave him an
| exception and the plates, and then demanded that he have
| it smogged.
|
| A two-stroke Trabant.
|
| I believe he showed the DMV the bottle of oil that he
| poured into the gas tank after every fillup, and asked
| them if there was a smog check place willing to hook what
| is essentially an old lawnmower up to their million-
| dollar diagnostic apparatus. This seemed to work.
| OneEyedRobot wrote:
| Passing visual was always the crazy part. Heaven help you
| if you have a 1976 car that's missing some part made from
| unobtanium.
|
| My understanding is that they can't test for NOx without
| rollers and the smog shops couldn't afford it.
|
| In any case, you'd end up with cases where cars put
| together by show judges couldn't pass because it didn't
| match some book. A lot of cars used to have to have crazy
| gadgets that interfered with spark advance.
|
| All for pass or not pass.
|
| Truth is, I'll bet you could drop the whole system and
| not see a change in air quality at this point. Super-
| dirty early cars get a bye (aircooled VW) and late model
| are rarely modified or worn out. If you feel the need to
| test, do a good job and then simply charge for the amount
| of emissions that come out.
|
| I have the feeling that the emissions industry has
| metastasized into a political power. Not unlike car
| dealerships.
|
| regarding Kei cars/trucks, my working theory is that most
| of the objections are safety related. Lots of DOT
| standards that the rest of the world ignores. Oddly,
| motorcycles are perfectly legal.
| rconti wrote:
| Yeah, there's absolutely no "inspection" whatsoever in
| California, other than emissions testing.
|
| Of course, if you're building a kit car or rebuilding a
| salvaged car or any number of edge cases, BAR has to
| certify the vehicle, but for a "normal" car you can get
| away with almost anything. Bald tires, no seatbelts,
| windshield wipers falling off, glass smashed up all to
| hell, wheel bearing so shot it looks like you're driving
| a paint shaker.
|
| Granted, it's illegal and you could get a ticket for it,
| but you'll see plenty of smashed up cars with no
| headlights or bumpers or whatever driving around on the
| roads in CA. It's just a matter of not running across a
| police officer who feels like spending the time to ticket
| you for blatantly illegal (lack of) equipment.
| GravitasFailure wrote:
| That's a California dealer license plate on the back of it.
| It appears to be street legal, but possibly only for city
| streets and not freeway driving.
| leoc wrote:
| For those who don't know, that's the Caterham 7 nee Lotus 7, as
| seen here for instance:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oROs7aJAg8k It's pretty amusing
| that it has city-car certification, all right.
| Lio wrote:
| 1957 the original Lotus 7 was launched.
|
| It's one of those designs, like the 911, that are still an
| absolute beast even today.
|
| It's so simple and right for it's intended purpose it just
| doesn't age.
|
| Or more precisely they've been able to evolve the basic
| concept to keep it competitive.
| b123400 wrote:
| As far as I know, there isn't a limit of power / speed for kei
| car category. In the old days Suzuki made a kei car that was
| "too powerful", the government "communicated" with them, and
| they settled with 64hps. Since then all the manufactures self-
| imposed the 64hps limit, but it's still legal for someone to
| power up their own car.
|
| Smart K is another non-Japanese kei car that's more powerful.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| That's pretty funny. Japanese manufacturers also had an
| informal agreement to limit motorcycles to 310kmh for a
| while: https://medium.com/gasolirium/the-gentlemens-
| agreement-abc60...
| nixass wrote:
| On somewhat related note.. When I was in Japan I was staggered by
| the lack of diesel cars. In one month there I cannot recall
| seeing any of them. It was all petrol or hybrid. It must be
| European thing..
| swebs wrote:
| You'll see very few diesel cars in the USA either.
| gsnedders wrote:
| Diesel being so widespread was mostly a European thing; the EU
| limits set following the Kyoto Agreement were very strict on
| CO2 (a climate change concern) and much less so on particulate
| matter (a local air quality concern), which led to a huge
| movement towards diesel cars in the EU.
| charesjrdan wrote:
| There were some strict laws on emissions passed about 20 years
| ago which led many Japanese car manufacturers to focus on
| reducing particulate pollution levels. Diesel engines are still
| used, but are rare compared to petrol because you need
| relatively expensive filters to meet the new requirements on a
| diesel.
| baybal2 wrote:
| I'm very surprised by Japan not being a big battery
| manufacturer already. Sure they do a lot business in _battery
| materials_ , but so far none of Japanese battery makers
| seriously entered the automotive battery market on a scale of
| Chinese factories.
|
| By my calculations, the horsepower limit, speed limit,
| emission penalties, and general size, and crash-worthiness
| requirements already make a 10-15kWh battery pack powered K
| car _surely_ cheaper than an IC one.
|
| And on top of that. Japanese who have cars drive really,
| really little, even by standards of similar countries with a
| lot of big cities close together. (South Korea being the
| biggest antipod, they really drive around a lot)
| rtpg wrote:
| Do the dynamics of Tokyo drivers (car exists for driving to
| the countryside) make sense for a small-range electric
| vehicle? Like there aren't that many EV parking spots in
| the outlet stores 2.5 hours away
|
| Seems like electric makes more sense in places where people
| are more likely to use their cars for daily commutes
| baybal2 wrote:
| Japanese daily commute is like 10km for a roundtrip, even
| for rural areas. A 10kWh battery will last days in such
| usage regimen.
| rtpg wrote:
| My point was more about people living in large cities
| just using public transportation instead for their daily
| commutes. Perhaps I'm totally wrong on the relative scale
| of that
|
| It's not that all car sales happen in Tokyo (far from it)
| and there's a lot of Tesla's etc, but why buy a car that
| you would only be able to use for a daily commute and not
| for trips that go much further than that?
|
| 10kwh according to Google gets you like 80km. That's
| pretty minuscule and would preclude even short weekend
| trips.
| baybal2 wrote:
| I knew one Japanese guy with two cars. One Kei, for
| driving the hood, and daily commute. And one proper,
| large car for "showing off" in the big city. He said such
| was rather common.
|
| The fancier is the car, the less people drive it so they
| can sell it at higher value.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| I think part of the reason that people will have one Kei
| (or 5 number) car and one 3 number car is that there are
| a lot of narrow streets, tight corners, and parking
| spaces that 3 number cars will barely manage that are
| much easier to navigate with a smaller vehicle.
| chiph wrote:
| The Tesla gigafactory in Nevada is mostly run by Panasonic.
| I expect that there is little domestic production there
| because Toyota & Honda haven't fully embraced EVs yet.
|
| https://na.panasonic.com/us/whatmovesus/gigafactory
| charesjrdan wrote:
| An electric k car (i-MiEV) was the one of the first
| mainstream electric vehicles, made in 2009, but since then
| charging infrastructure has not been growing at a very fast
| rate and is quite a way behind smaller European countries.
| There are several companies announcing electric k cars for
| release in the next couple of years but they are much more
| expensive than petrol and I think it will be decades before
| they are widespread.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| > And on top of that. Japanese who have cars drive really,
| really little, even by standards of similar countries with
| a lot of big cities close together. (South Korea being the
| biggest antipod, they really drive around a lot)
|
| That's a pretty big assumption. By the time you get to
| Nagoya (3rd-4th largest city), commuting by car is common
| and families will have 2-3 vehicles.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Kei Cars have been available and street-legal in the Canadian
| province of British Columbia for many years. The catch is that
| while you can get plates and insurance for your Kei Car (or
| truck) you will never get a dime of coverage in a collision. Kei
| Cars are dirt cheap, but they are throw-away vehicles, so to
| speak. Service? Lots of Asian-owned garages in the Vancouver area
| mean there are plenty of mechanics with Kei Car experience.
| Parts? Good luck with that. Travel? Very local, and don't even
| bother trying to cross the U.S. border with one.
| jzellis wrote:
| I've always wanted a kei truck since I first saw one in a movie
| in the 1980s. They seem to be legal here in the UK, where I've
| recently relocated from America, so getting one might be in the
| cards some day, when we're not living in the London burbs with no
| parking.
|
| I had a 96 Toyota T-100 4WD in Vegas and I loved it. Used to
| carry a shit ton of wood and building materials with it, and I
| built a small shelving and storage unit inside the camper shell
| with a 5gal water tank and a small DIY swamp cooler that ran off
| a 5v USB fan and water pump powered off a solar charger and
| battery pack that could keep the temperature down to survivable
| in there even in the Mojave summer. I used to take her out to BLM
| land and camp happily in the deep desert.
|
| I do wonder about trying to fit my 6'3" gigantor Texan ass in one
| of these though.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Surprised to see it getting to the front-page, but yeah, most
| countries miss a lot because of lack of small, affordable cars.
|
| Most of EU, and especially larger, expensive cities have a taste
| for small cars, and equally so friendlier regulations for them.
|
| Most of the developing world drives Suzukis, no challenge to
| that. Extremely cost optimised cars, very close to what Toyota
| did in eighties, but since discontinued.
| NaOH wrote:
| There's a Kei fire truck in San Francisco that's becoming
| increasingly well recognized.
|
| https://abc7news.com/localish/this-fun-sized-fire-truck-conn...
| Hamuko wrote:
| There was one recently on sale in the US as well. Sold for a
| reasonable $4750.
|
| https://carsandbids.com/auctions/rEAVLLvk/1989-daihatsu-hije...
| JasonFruit wrote:
| Fascinating how they've expanded in size and engine displacement
| over the years. That seems common for any category of item meant
| to be minimal: people think, "If we could only add a little more
| _x_... " and then in a few years it's time for a new minimal.
| amyjess wrote:
| Keep in mind that modern safety features add both size and
| weight. Increasing the maximum engine displacement (last done
| in 1990) and size (last done in 1998) is necessary in order to
| keep speed and interior volume consistent with new safety
| features.
|
| In fact, I'd argue they haven't increased enough--safety tech
| has improved by leaps and bounds since 1998, and anyone who's
| been in a modern car compared to a 1998 car can testify that
| there's much less usable interior space now in a car of the
| same external dimensions as one from 1998, and you can thank
| all the extra airbags, crumple zones, etc. that have been
| introduced since then.
| tomcam wrote:
| Scope creep happens everywhere...
| tmh88j wrote:
| Doug DeMuro just reviewed an Autozam AZ-1, which is a supercar-
| styled Kei car by Mazda produced under its Autozam brand.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-Z5FHXcBA
|
| If you want an NSFW review of the AZ-1 RCR reviewed it a few
| years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVy1ciP_ik
| b123400 wrote:
| I live in Tokyo and drive an old kei car. Despite being not very
| powerful, it does provide me whatever I need. Driving it on
| highway (about 100km/h) feels alright, of course it's not as
| quiet or comfortable as bigger cars, but not unacceptable. I am
| sure newer models are much improved. Many car parks here have
| height/size limit, or even kei-car-only space, and it's just
| easier to park even for regular places. I find myself feeling
| more responsible by driving a small car, when I stop at the side
| of a road, it occupies at most half of the lane, so another kei
| car can bypass easily. Maybe it's a Japanese thing, but unlike
| SUV's "getting higher up to see more", I am more like "I am as
| small as everyone else so I don't block people's view".
| milkytron wrote:
| Kei cars would be great in America and I would fully accept
| laws supporting them as an effort to reduce dependence on big
| consumptive engines in our transition to electric mobility.
|
| One can dream.
| novok wrote:
| Can Kei Cars meet the USA's collision safety requirements
| although? Part of the reason why cars are beefier is
| collision safety regulations.
| fnord77 wrote:
| Kei cars are death traps and I don't think the US would
| accept going back to gruesome, brutal car wrecks as the norm.
|
| as far as big consumptive engines, Kei Cars consume around
| 3-4 Liters/100km
|
| a prius is not that much worse at 4.4 L/100km
|
| It's all kind of moot anyway with EVs coming.
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