[HN Gopher] Why do they burn a man at Burning Man?
___________________________________________________________________
Why do they burn a man at Burning Man?
Author : jger15
Score : 70 points
Date : 2021-09-04 12:09 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (tedgioia.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (tedgioia.substack.com)
| tosstoyevsky wrote:
| They've been burning Zozobra in Santa Fe since the 20s. Not a
| music thing per se, but a symbolic burning.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zozobra
| ericbarrett wrote:
| In fact the annual burning of Zozobra took place last night!
| Around 27m in: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WpGpa_nLTEs
| transfire wrote:
| I miss Zozobra. Been some 20 years since I lived is Santa Fe.
| Don't recall it being covered on TV like this back then.
| Seems like more attending too.
|
| But yeah, I suspect the idea for burning man must have
| originated with Zozobra.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I think they burned a man at Burning Man because the guy who came
| up with it was going through a divorce and had a kind of
| spontaneous inspiration/dream/vision about doing it. So if
| anything, it would be transition or rebirth, not scapegoating or
| execution. Or at least that's why _he_ did it. The reason Burning
| Man Inc. does it is because they saw something authentic that was
| working[0], copied it, stripped everything interesting or
| frightening to people with money out of it, scaled it up, and
| turned it into a living.
|
| [0] There should be scare quotes around "working", I think some
| people got set on fire and somebody might have died.
| rbanffy wrote:
| The artist in me regards BM as extremely attractive. The rest of
| me regards it as an existential threat. If I let the artist roam
| free for a week, he won't go back to his place in my life without
| a long conversation and a lot of convincing. In other words, the
| me I know might never come back.
| SuoDuanDao wrote:
| I think that's the goal. The story I heard was that the burning
| man represented the founder's old self, old habits and the like
| he wanted to be rid of.
| waprin wrote:
| The author talks about linking it to human sacrifice, which is
| definitely an angle worth considering. But there are some others-
|
| 1. Immediacy is one of the ten principles of burning man, and
| burning the art when finished forces people to appreciate it in
| the moment while it still exists. It's worth noting a lot of art
| is burned, not just the man.
|
| 2. Fire is aesthetically pleasing . A huge percentage of the
| burning man crowd is into fire dancing and fire arts
|
| 3. They burn the Man because that's what they do - similar to
| abstract art you can just accept how that makes you feel rather
| than needing to cognitively analyze it.
|
| 4. It connects to both eastern and western religion. Impermanence
| is a pillar of Buddhism and a man publicly dying is a pillar of
| Christianity
|
| Of course I don't think drawing a connection to human sacrifice
| is outlandish as a ritualistic burning of a symbolic man during a
| large semi-spiritual gathering is easy to connect to human
| sacrifice. But it's worth considering a few other ideas.
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| Native Americans of the Pacific coast who saw bountiful years
| more often than not also engaged in rituals of conspicuous
| consumption, typically by burning the excess.
|
| This is something that would have been taught to anyone taking
| an anthropology class in college from at least the 1960s, and
| if you've seen these displays in person, they're fairly
| impactful.
|
| That's what I've always associated Burning Man with. It's an
| effigy and totem of our ephemeral human-ness, enabled in a
| harsh and hostile environment by the excesses we've accumulated
| over the whole of human history. We pause briefly to remember
| that how we live now is not the only way and reflect on the
| loss of our common pasts, and that one day this too will not
| exist.
|
| The human sacrifice angle feels like the kind of contrived pop-
| culture interpretation someone who's watched Temple of Doom too
| many times and hasn't read enough local history would convince
| themself of.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I once read (I believe it was in [1]) that the indigenous
| tribes of the PNW especially along the coast had one of the
| highest standards of living on earth at the time Lewis &
| Clark arrived. Food (salmon, berries, shellfish) was
| exceedingly abundant as was wood for building and fuel.
|
| [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18085481-astoria
| [deleted]
| mullingitover wrote:
| > Native Americans of the Pacific coast who saw bountiful
| years more often than not also engaged in rituals of
| conspicuous consumption, typically by burning the excess.
|
| Burning Man definitely feels like white people 'discovering'
| potlatch. The actual burning of the man is mostly a hood
| ornament for the event. The festival itself and its culture
| revolve around creating a community and your rank in that
| community mainly comes from how much you give away. That's
| really the thing that keeps people coming back, not the fancy
| bonfire.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > The author talks about linking it to human sacrifice, which
| is definitely an angle worth considering. But there are some
| others-
|
| But some of the others are also connected to human sacrifice,
| such as...
|
| > It connects to both eastern and western religion.
| Impermanence is a pillar of Buddhism and a man publicly dying
| is a pillar of Christianity
|
| The "man publicly dying" that is a pillar of Christianity is a
| human sacrifice, though.
| chrononaut wrote:
| > a man publicly dying is a pillar of Christianity
|
| OT, I am not deeply familiar with any particular religion, but
| do you have more information on this, or perhaps why it is a
| pillar? Do other religions not have something similar in their
| [historical/current] practices?
| nonameiguess wrote:
| There are similar stories in other religions. Krishna stands
| out, being killed while in human form, forgiving his killer,
| and then ascending to heaven. Although that was an accident,
| not intentional sacrifice.
| WJW wrote:
| He's talking about Jesus being crucified. The whole religion
| is named after the guy.
| chrononaut wrote:
| I read that as "a man publicly dying" as in the sense of
| "public executions are a tenant of the religion", which did
| not make much sense to me.
|
| Even specific to Jesus though, do other religions not have
| a prominent sacrifice in their history?
| jhgb wrote:
| But why is it not a pillar of ancient Celtic religion, for
| example? They were literally burning people in wicker cages
| for religious reasons. When you say "burning man", I
| certainly imagine druids much more readily than
| Christianity.
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| Which religion do you think of when I say "burning
| woman?"
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Hinduism, obviously.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)
| jhgb wrote:
| The Lord of Light, probably.
| cjfd wrote:
| It probably is the pillar of christianity just because it
| is what happened. It is rather shocking if the founder is
| executed in such a brutal way so you need to make a story
| around that. It is in fact so shocking that the story
| pretty much turned out to need to redefine reality or god
| or something like that. Nobody understands this trinity
| stuff anyway.... And then you can choose to believe it of
| or not believe it...
| jhgb wrote:
| > It is rather shocking if the founder is executed in
| such a brutal way so you need to make a story around
| that.
|
| Not sure what's shocking about it. Probably tens of
| thousands of people were executed in the same way; it was
| a commonplace method of execution.
| Hoasi wrote:
| Perhaps because Christianity was a better proponent of
| sadomasochistic tendencies than pagan rites ever were. It
| looks as if it was also a huge component of its success.
| WJW wrote:
| The Celtic practices are apparently in some doubt these
| days, since "fake news" had already been invented in
| Roman times. (see
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man for more
| details)
|
| In any cases, burning some poor bloke as a sacrifice to
| the gods seems of a different order than building the
| main thrust of your symbolism (ie, crosses everywhere)
| around the death of your main prophet figure. Many
| religions did the former, very few seem to have done the
| latter.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| I expect most Americans are much more familiar with
| Christianity than with ancient Celtic religion.
| pstuart wrote:
| And their symbol is that of his means of death, with many
| churches prominently displaying that death (him dying on
| the cross).
| [deleted]
| mboperator wrote:
| Jesus' death and resurrection is important because of why He
| died.
|
| He died for us. We're born as sinners. We live lives that are
| offensive to a righteous God.
|
| Though we have the inbuilt desire to be justified, we fall so
| far below God's standard there is nothing we can do to be
| right with God.
|
| But He loved us so much, He decided to send His only Son -
| Jesus - to live the perfect sinless life that we could not.
|
| Then He sacrificed Himself on our behalf. In believing in
| Jesus, His righteousness is accounted to us and we are made
| right with God. The implications of this are incredible but I
| won't get into it.
|
| Jesus came to the earth preaching this good news (the
| gospel). And this news is a good story, but the crux of what
| makes it true is that He was resurrected by God.
|
| His resurrection validated His claims. Believing in Him has
| transformed millions of lives because God's Spirit dwells
| inside of His people when they believe.
|
| By His Spirit for millennia, starting with His own disciples,
| people have done tremendous feats and have been willing to
| die to share this news with the world.
|
| AFAIK other religions requires their followers to sacrifice
| to their god(s). In Christianity, God sacrificed Himself for
| us - out of love.
|
| TL:DR; Repent and believe in the name of Jesus.
| marton78 wrote:
| You might have come across the name Jesus.
| chrononaut wrote:
| I think you might've missed the second half of my question?
|
| > Do other religions not have something similar in their
| [historical/current] practices?
|
| Is the prominent sacrifice of a person unique to the
| background of Christianity? I do not really understand the
| snarky replies.
| travisjungroth wrote:
| The snarky replies are because people are interpreting
| your questions as challenging and ignoring obvious
| context. So, they're trying to shut you down.
|
| A less snarky response:
|
| > do you have more information on this, or perhaps why it
| is a pillar?
|
| Christianity is referring to Jesus Christ (not his actual
| name). He was a religious figure and publicly executed.
| The story of his life, execution and what happens after
| (resurrection and ascension) are central to Christianity.
| This is what makes his death a "pillar". The religions is
| built on it, like a building is supported with pillars.
|
| > Do other religions not have something similar in their
| [historical/current] practices?
|
| The "not" in your question implies that it this question
| is opposed to your last question. That a public death
| can't be a pillar of Christianity if it's in other
| religions. _This is not the case_. Something doesn't have
| to be unique to be a pillar. Asceticism and isolation are
| pillars of monastic Zen. They are _also_ pillars of
| Shipibo shamanism.
|
| So, yes, lots of other public sacrifices. Point still
| holds.
| oehtXRwMkIs wrote:
| Christ is more of a title. His name was Jesus of
| Nazareth. If you believe him to be Christ then you would
| call him Jesus Christ.
| chrononaut wrote:
| (Thanks for taking the time and writing this.)
|
| > The snarky replies are because people are interpreting
| your questions as challenging and ignoring obvious
| context.
|
| I knew Jesus plays a notable (?) role in Islam, and other
| prophets / people are also notable in both religions, so
| I didn't know if the sacrifice was a critical component
| in both, but:
|
| > what happens after (resurrection and ascension) are
| central to Christianity.
|
| I think that helps a bit more with context.
|
| > That a public death can't be a pillar of Christianity
| if it's in other religions.
|
| That wasn't what I meant per se, it was more that OP
| specifically cited Christianity, so I was curious if that
| was unique component to Christianity, but you and other
| comments helped clarify.
| mountainriver wrote:
| Yeah I hang with a fair amount of burners and have always
| understood the burning of the man to be about impermanence
| ipaddr wrote:
| The real reason is: spontaneous act of radical self-expression
|
| and it being copied to get the same experience.
| not1ofU wrote:
| For 10 hour romp into BM conspiracy theory: "The Shadow History
| of Burners"
| kleene_op wrote:
| Dude, you're seriously over-interpreting it.
|
| It is obviously a metaphor for Ego death, which is not even
| mentioned once in your article.
| swayvil wrote:
| It's a strong symbol. Powerful poetry. Graphically lush.
| Ritualistically useful. Memetically energetic. Mythically
| resonant.
|
| Which makes it handy when your aim is to throw a big party.
|
| Much like a hammer is good for driving nails.
| 3l3ktr4 wrote:
| that's the most stupid shit I ever read in this website congrats
| ddtaylor wrote:
| I have full faith we can produce stupider shit given enough
| time.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| That was way more interesting than I expected. Apparently, ritual
| sacrifice of humans in which music is played, probably to drown
| out the cries of the victims, goes back millennia to many ancient
| cultures in every continent that almost certainly had no contact
| with each other. And the author speculates there is a "Purge"
| like thing going on with continued violence at rock concerts and
| violent deaths of musicians themselves bringing a sort of
| collective catharsis to stave off even worse violence if we
| didn't let our ya yas out somehow.
|
| I was just expecting to hear whoever originally organized this
| festival watched Wicker Man one too many times or something. But
| I suppose Wicker Man itself would be a manifestation of this
| older tradition.
| warent wrote:
| I don't get it. What are our ya yas? In what way is injuring or
| killing a person cathartic?
| fossuser wrote:
| I agree - I found the writing to be the kind of thing that
| makes me immediately skeptical.
|
| A lot of fanciful connections that seem "smart", but without
| much to back it up - it's possible there's truth to some of
| it, but someone could similarly argue a different reason and
| make it sound just as good. I suspect it's overconfident in
| what the causes are and drawing more of a conclusion than
| what's there.
| [deleted]
| nonameiguess wrote:
| To be perfectly clear, I am not in any way intending to
| advocate for the position that we _should_ feel catharsis
| from injuring or killing people.
|
| But it's there. We are all descended from violent predators
| that got by in the world by killing other animals. A lot of
| people still do that for sport. Even just with human sport,
| perhaps you've never played a contact or combat sport where
| you directly hit other people. Whether or not it's right that
| it should be this way, I can assure you that it feels really
| good.
|
| I used to be a tank commander, and I guess I was lucky as
| hell to never have to kill someone myself, but I'll never
| quite forget my first commander at the armor school who would
| get us pumped up talking about when he graduated, he'd gone
| straight to Ramadi to replace a platoon leader who'd just
| been killed in action and how it made his dick hard to think
| about blowing up hospitals. The man was an absolute
| psychopath, but there is no denying a lot of people like that
| exist. The commander of my lead 2 tank had once shredded a
| man with a .50 cal from less than a hundred feet away and
| found it the most addictive thing he'd ever done. As the war
| started to wind down and normal units no longer got real
| combat assignments, he was determined to move into the
| Special Forces to stay in the game. That guy was never going
| to be normal again.
|
| Whether it is sports, actual combat, sexual dominance and
| sado-masochism, or even just extreme endurance athletes and
| alpine mountaineers putting their own bodies through hell,
| pain inflicted on others and pain inflicted on yourself can
| be quite addictive, and it is definitely better for society
| if we can find some way to do this ritually rather than by
| actually starting wars. Ideally not via human sacrifice, but
| you know, somehow.
| warent wrote:
| I played full contact football and never felt anything
| pleasant from it. Nothing convinced me of what you were
| talking about except that I'd not considered sadomasochism
| in this context and now what you're saying makes sense.
| Sexual sadomasochism is experiencing some kind of torture
| in a safe, imaginary way. So other ritual violence works in
| a similar way. That comparison clicks for me. Thanks for
| the insight.
| fsckboy wrote:
| this isn't a direct answer to your first question, but the
| people who go to burning man are probably familiar with the
| Rolling Stones album entitled "Get Your Ya Ya's Out" and
| since "ya" is a cry of agreement often used as a cheer, I
| always assumed it meant "group shout in celebration" and I
| don't think that's a big stretch
|
| as to your second question, humans have innate senses of
| violence as a reaction to certain stimuli, and also
| celebrations of victory whether in actual or symbolic combat
| so... can you seriously not see the emotional catharsis, or
| are you simply questioning it as being emotional and un-
| rational?
|
| I would add that to me--anthropomorphizing a little, emotions
| are rational: emotions were discovered by evolution as a good
| way to regulate behavior, and evolution is actually one of
| the most logical of processes.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| Yeah, I was intentionally invoking the Rolling Stones,
| since the article mentions the Altamont incident where
| Meredith Hunter was killed by the Hell's Angels right in
| front of the stage as one of its examples. Might not be
| entirely clear to readers who aren't familiar with the
| Stones' back catalog.
| fsckboy wrote:
| just to tune up that sentence a little, Meredith Hunter
| was killed by a Hell's Angel after he drew a gun. There
| was beef. The Hell's Angel was tried and acquitted, self-
| defense.
| gremloni wrote:
| I can't find instances of human sacrifice by burning with loud
| music on any continent. The only instances of ritual human
| sacrifice I can find are in the Americas. What's so cathartic
| about killing a person? I can understand punishment for doing
| something society disagrees with or as blood sport for
| entertainment but what are you talking about?
| nonameiguess wrote:
| Other instances are _in this article_. It specifically
| mentions ancient Canaanites doing it and being condemned for
| it by the Hebrews. It mentions Carthage and the Northern Ewe
| in Africa. Also claims South India, though whatever specific
| example the book cites isn 't in this article and you'd need
| to read the book to find out what it is.
| irrational wrote:
| Ritual human sacrifice did occur in places other than the
| Americas.
|
| https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2020/02/human-sacrifice
| Lammy wrote:
| > That is one of the key learnings we draw from Rene Girard
| (1923-2015), a pathbreaking thinker who life's work focused on
| the importance of ritualized sacrifice in human culture.
|
| See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_of_Care
| ianai wrote:
| Is there a relationship with this? https://burnzozobra.com/about/
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Because despite all the pseudo spiritual bullshit, most attendees
| of Burning Man are just extravagant people that do not care about
| its environmental cost. They just want to see shit burn.
|
| If you have "spiritual" problems, throwing a Halloween party in
| the desert is not going to do shit for you.
|
| Flying people from all corners of the planet to gather somewhere
| is never going to be carbon neutral.
|
| Flying from coast to coast has the same carbon footprint of
| burning trash for an entire year. Then, burning massive amounts
| of shit once you arrive has an even higher footprint.
|
| Want to connect with your inner self? fucking close your eyes and
| breathe. It is free.
| ajay-b wrote:
| I am very surprised that there has not been a Burning Woman
| movement, figuratively at least.
| bredren wrote:
| There big change recently is that the Man design is no longer
| only designed by one white man in collaboration with the now
| deceased founder.
|
| Presuming an "official" BM goes forward again, I would not be
| surprised if the man design changed to to include female
| features
| Retric wrote:
| I think feminists are perfectly ok with burning a man in
| effigy. But that's ok, we can get some masculismists behind
| this quest for equality! But what about children and the
| elderly...
|
| Hell why limit it to humans, dolphins in there wet little world
| are getting off light here. Lets burn them, let's burn them
| ALL! HA HA HA!!!
|
| Which hopefully answers that one.
| rendall wrote:
| ... Imagine, if you will, a parallel universe in which there
| had been no _Burning Man_.
|
| One day, you read an article about people who gather in the
| middle of the desert and burn a woman in effigy and call their
| event _Burning Woman_. The article neutrally describes the
| event: gift economy, participatory culture, light art,
| costumes, shirt-cockers, maybe drugs. It 's Burning Man, but in
| this universe, the exact same event just happens to be called
| Burning Woman.
|
| Would there be accusations of misogyny, credible enough to shut
| down the event, or no?
| ajuc wrote:
| There is a somewhat similar tradition in Poland (without the
| gitf economy art and drugs). People burn an effigy of winter
| god called Marzanna on the first day of astronomical Spring
| (and/or throw it into a nearby river). It's common in most
| Slavic countries I think, but in some of them it vanished
| because catholic church was fighting it at one point.
|
| There are accusations of misogyny because that's the world we
| live in, but mostly nobody cares cause it's fun for kids.
|
| Ironically this pagan tradition comes from a religion that
| was much more woman-friendly than catholicism that replaced
| it.
| gremloni wrote:
| There was in Salem a few centuries ago. Good times.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| No (alleged) witches were burned at Salem.
|
| They were all hanged, except one who was pressed to death.
| [deleted]
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| This has been discussed ad infinitum in the burning man
| community. Burning man is totally inclusive of all genders.
| xwdv wrote:
| If that's true why not change the name then to Burning Person
| or something gender neutral, maybe just Burning?
| chokeartist wrote:
| Because it doesn't matter. Troons will ruin everything if
| you listen to their endless babble.
| Zababa wrote:
| "man" can be used in a gender-neutral way.
| rcoumet wrote:
| Not in the LGBT... community
| nathanvanfleet wrote:
| No mention of Wickerman?
| jlrubin wrote:
| I think this article lacks an actual history of the event as
| opposed to the meaning people seek at the event today.
|
| It's my recollection -- from speaking with some long time san
| francisco residents -- that the original burning man was really a
| burning woman, and was an effigy of one of the founder's former
| girlfriends. If you look at photos of the first burn, the "man"
| appears more to be a woman in a hands-on-hips scolding posture
| https://www.presidio.gov/blog-internal/PublishingImages/then... .
| Subsequent burns shifted to a more neutral hands at sides
| posture.
|
| Of course, if you speak to the original burners the somewhat
| misogynistic roots have been smoothed over to clarify that the
| man is a more universal symbol. There are some decent articles
| https://www.trippingly.net/burning-man-musings/2019/2/14/why...
| that cover the different accounts of the first burn, which is a
| bit more well researched that "something a SF long time resident
| told me".
| bsksi wrote:
| Hating an ex is a misogynistic act? Surely some women also hate
| their exes?
| michaelt wrote:
| Sure - but if I, a stranger, am really looking forward to
| seeing the burning of an effigy of some dude's ex-girlfriend,
| that would make me look pretty weird.
| bsksi wrote:
| I think we can all sympathise with that sentiment,
| regardless of our sex :P
| Zababa wrote:
| I don't know, burning a symbolic "ex" could be something
| many people would relate too. Instead of taking out your
| anger on a real human, you take it out on a symbolic
| effigy. It's better for everyone involved.
| gremloni wrote:
| How on earth is that misogynistic? He burnt the effigy for
| highly personal reasons. It's not some kind of attack on all
| women.
| conradev wrote:
| If you want to read a pretty good account of the atmosphere and
| attitude at the time, I highly recommend reading this book, if
| you can find a copy: http://talesofsfcacophony.com/
|
| It goes into the origins of Burning Man, SantaCon, art cars -
| the whole deal. Burning Man in its current form started as
| "Zone Trip #4" or "A Bad Day in Black Rock", organized by the
| Cacophony Society, after the burn at Baker beach was stopped by
| police.
|
| If you want to read the original flyer for the event, the
| Internet Archive actually archived the whole of Rough Draft,
| which was the central organizing newsletter of the Cacophony
| Society. Here it is:
| https://archive.org/details/roughdraftoffici1171vari/page/n9...
| irrational wrote:
| It's not a man. It's The Man.
| agustif wrote:
| you know, I hadn't made the relation before, but we've 'Las
| Fallas' here in Valencia/Spain Area which seem pretty much same
| shit sans festival ofc
| lanevorockz wrote:
| 80k is not a huge crowd by any accounts .. it's not even one
| trump rally
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| 80k people for a few hours in a stadium surrounded by
| infrastructure purpose built for it is a completely different
| matter than 80k people on a featureless, waterless, hot desert
| plain for a whole week.
| danachow wrote:
| Isn't this like half of central Africa?
| rbanffy wrote:
| This is an event where 80K people go to the desert for a
| week for no practical reason, then clean up after
| themselves and go back to where they came from.
| gremloni wrote:
| It's quite hard to get to and depending on how you prepare a
| bit of a survival experience.
| viktorcode wrote:
| Correlation doesn't mean causation. I'm sorry, but the theory is
| bonkers, which becomes clear after the assertion that the link
| between music and violence is "undeniable"
| phkahler wrote:
| A philosophical read is nice, but I'd like to hear straight from
| attendees capable of introspection, what burning the man does for
| them. I dont doubt it's got connections to things in TFA, but the
| personal variations are probably interesting.
| raylad wrote:
| Back in the day I was friendly with some of the people in the
| Burning Man organization and someone mentioned that the original
| Man represented Larry Harvey's ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend.
|
| It used to be possible to find this info by searching too, but it
| seems to have been largely scrubbed from the internet.
| grey-area wrote:
| Lots of festivals before and since burn a wicker man, it has its
| roots in pagan mythology, but the reasons are probably not
| complex; they saw others doing it and stole the idea.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man
| rlt wrote:
| Never underestimate man's ability/desire to assign meaning to
| other peoples' actions.
| rootsudo wrote:
| I do enjoy the full circle it has become, where burning man, has,
| in essence, became "the man."
| artiszt wrote:
| quite. it became something the great LandArtist's [LandArt 1.0]
| probably not imagined possible -- Holt, Smithson, de Maria,
| Heizer, Turell, etc and nothing is left behind.
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