[HN Gopher] Finger counting gives away your nationality
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Finger counting gives away your nationality
Author : midnightcity
Score : 47 points
Date : 2021-09-03 07:26 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| jhncls wrote:
| The correct way is to count in binary, and easily reach 1023
| without needing a third hand [0].
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary
| [deleted]
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| I tried ordering 99 glasses of beer because why not, the waiter
| took a while and finally arrived holding 792 beers.
| smegger001 wrote:
| got to make sure both parties are using the same endian
| cochne wrote:
| The number 4 may be an issue for some cultures!
| mngnt wrote:
| So 4 is the numeric equivalent of a raised middle finger.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > and easily reach 1023 without needing a third hand
|
| Given that most people cannot move their ring finger
| independently of their middle finger, this seems like a
| stretch.
| rfrey wrote:
| Having just finished my commute home, I'm sorry the converse
| isn't true.
| throwaway1239Mx wrote:
| Came here to comment on binary finger counting; found it'd
| already been said!
|
| I have trouble with some positions due to the ring/pinkie
| connection, but for me it's more of an internal count anyway,
| so something like counting a 'down' finger as '1' instead of
| '0' makes it a lot more comfortable, or even '1' is finger
| touching a surface, '0' is not - which can involve moving a
| digit only a few mm or so.
|
| The 1023 thing does require fine motor control of at least
| ten appendages, though even legs-arms-tongue gets you to 32,
| if a bit inconveniently.
| thom wrote:
| Try it. It works.
| Cederfjard wrote:
| People's anatomy differ, and with that also how easy it is
| to move these digits independently. See for example the
| answer to this question:
| https://biology.stackexchange.com/q/60075
| thom wrote:
| Apologies, I didn't realise people struggled to this
| extent. I've taught many people to count this way and not
| encountered anybody who struggled, but it was ableist of
| me to assume that was universal.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I've tried it. It doesn't work.
| Joker_vD wrote:
| I personally can't bend my pinkie without bending the
| ring finger, not the middle finger.
| [deleted]
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Number 14 (pinky touching thumb, others raised) doesn't
| work for me. It hurts a lot.
| jhellan wrote:
| I am guilty of having taught that to a five year old during a
| hiking trip. He is now an engineer.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I taught a 5 year old that 1 + 1 = 10, and they got in
| trouble at school for arguing with the teacher. Even after
| explaining that 1 + 1 = 10 in binary specifically, as the
| teacher was complaining to the parents "whatever that means".
| The parents asked me to be more careful with my "teaching".
| moralestapia wrote:
| I get your teacher was dumb, but technically it could be on
| the right side.
|
| It all depends on whether you were writing it or saying it,
| "1 + 1 = 10" is true in binary but "one plus one equals
| ten" is not, not even in binary.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >I get your teacher was dumb, but technically it could be
| on the right side.
|
| Let's be fair, a 5 year is only in kindergarten, so I
| would not expect a kindergarten teacher to be fully
| expecting a 5 year old to be talking about binary or even
| fully educated in other counting methods than base 10.
| That doesn't make them dumb. I'm sure that teacher could
| teach you things without calling you dumb.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| I'm fairly certain I was taught the unary counting system
| in either kindergarten or 1st grade. And I wasn't even in
| an advanced course.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Timmy has 1 rock. Johnny gives Timmy 1 rock. Timmy now
| has 1 rock. Jenny gives 1 rock to Timmy. Timmy has 1
| rock.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| - zero
|
| 0 - one
|
| 00 - two
|
| 000 - three
| dylan604 wrote:
| I think that's noary math instead of unary. or maybe
| nonary/nunary(can only count women in
| habits)/zipary/nilary/???
| moralestapia wrote:
| Err... sorry I don't know said teacher, I was just
| following along your comment, where you seem to portray
| the teacher in such way.
|
| You even do it in this comment, condescendingly,
|
| >I would not expect a kindergarten teacher to be [...]
| fully educated in other counting methods than base 10
|
| Honestly, it's not that big of a deal to know binary or
| not.
|
| But anyway, that aside, you completely missed the point
| of my comment. Whew.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Are you saying that my not expecting a kindergarten
| teacher to be educated in binary math is condescending?
|
| I got your point that 10 in binary is not actually base
| 10 10, but 2 in base 10. It was just not worth commenting
| as it was a discussion about a 5 year old conversation
| not the semantics of math.
| reificator wrote:
| That was not a condescending comment by my read.
|
| Replace counting in other bases with "theoretical
| physics" or "woodworking" and it doesn't read that way
| either.
|
| I think this xkcd is relevant here:
| https://xkcd.com/2501/
| Teever wrote:
| I was taught how to count in binary in grade 5, is this
| not a normal thing that kids learn in school?
| remexre wrote:
| I think it depends on what curriculum your school's
| using; non-base-10 math is a punchline in Tom Lehrer's
| "New Math" [1]. Common Core might be getting rid of it?
|
| As a side note, comparing the complaints in "New Math"
| (from 1965) to those offered about Common Core is
| educational :)
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA
| danellis wrote:
| The first time I saw this, it was a blind person on a train
| counting stations. Personally, I would need a lot of practice
| to gain that dexterity.
| toxik wrote:
| And with two's complement, we can even have negative numbers!
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| And just by touching your toes, you can do signed 10-bit
| addition and subtraction!
| Lammy wrote:
| I first learned about this from the regional box art variations
| for _Sonic the Hedgehog 3_ (1994):
|
| - JP: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3-box-jap.jpg
|
| - US: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3_md_us_cover.jpg
|
| - EU: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:S3-eu-box.jpg
| adventured wrote:
| When I was young I first realized that there was regional
| variety to this in the US, from Michael Jordan (he grew up in
| North Carolina):
|
| 2: https://i.imgur.com/J7MaBUq.jpg
|
| 3: https://i.imgur.com/wORrZjC.jpg
|
| Where I grew up, several states north of the Carolinas, three
| is pretty much always the index/fore + middle + ring fingers.
| Prior to seeing Jordan do that I didn't recall having noticed
| someone counting / signaling three with the pinky instead of
| the index.
| [deleted]
| ragona wrote:
| An interesting exception to this is that American Sign Language
| (ASL) counts differently from normal American cultural hand
| counting. For example, three involves a thumb, whereas the normal
| US/UK idiom is only fingers.
| rcarmo wrote:
| This is bunk. I'm Portuguese and I start by joining the thumb
| with my pinky, brush it through the other fingers, then raise my
| thumb as "5". Nobody I know does that, it's a personal trait.
| ARandomerDude wrote:
| My grandmother used to say "well, not _all_ dogs have flees...
| " It was annoying back then too.
| johndoe0815 wrote:
| This can be fatal - as shown in Tarantino's Inglourious
| Basterds...
| beckman466 wrote:
| "Three glasses." - Those goddamn people from Piz Palu!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Ckh80mLlQ
| mngnt wrote:
| I like what I got to know as "the Japanese way" to count to 144
| on my fingers. I'm sure it's not exclusive to Japan tho. Using
| thumb as a pointer, I count not on the fingers, but their
| segments. Each finger is 3 segments, which gives 12 per hand.
| Now, to boost it, one hand is used to count the dozens from the
| other hand. Gets me thinking, maybe this is one of the reasons
| for popularity of 12-based systems in ancient times? Did our
| ancestors just use their counting fingers better?
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > maybe this is one of the reasons for popularity of 12-based
| systems in ancient times?
|
| The popularity of 12-based systems is due to the fact that 12
| is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.
| mngnt wrote:
| That was on my ming when I wrote "one of the".
| sombremesa wrote:
| From TFA:
|
| > In India, for example, they use the lines between the
| segments of the fingers to count. This means each digit can
| represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20.
|
| Which is false. This method is indeed "taught" (folk, not
| academia) in India (and Japan), but it's not the way a majority
| of natives will actually count in everyday situations.
|
| There are indeed important cultural distinctions re:counting in
| areas (like tally marks), but articles like these which are
| plausible yet false (this isn't a shibboleth at all) muddy the
| waters.
| betwixthewires wrote:
| Reminds me of that scene in Inglorious Basterds where the spies
| are outed because of this.
| gumby wrote:
| > In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments
| of the fingers to count.
|
| My mother does this, and additionally used to do arithmetic this
| way.
|
| She never really taught us how to do math this way.
| nikhilgk wrote:
| > In India, for example, they use the lines between the
| segments of the fingers to count. > This means each digit can
| represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20.
|
| The first part is true, but not the second part. You use the
| thumb as a pointer to track the lines on the other 4 fingers.
| So you count up to 16 on each hand. Besides, the thumb has 1
| line segment less than the other fingers.
| Gunax wrote:
| I see only 2 or 3 line segments... also seems difficult to
| connect thumb to pinky bottom
| drran wrote:
| It is possible to count to 54 on one hand by counting "bump -
| valley" and by flipping the hand, so to 108 using both.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| We (Pakistani family) used to do rosary (mala) on our fingers
| this way
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| And a key plot point in _Inglourious Basterds_.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/order-a-beer-like-a-german-2...
| lazyant wrote:
| Funny I don't use either method to show or count three; I use
| my pinky (who I'd start counting) and the next two fingers.
| pedrosorio wrote:
| The bbc article claims in the UK (and "many countries in
| Europe") start with the thumb, but the Inglorious Basterds
| scene seems to contradict that.
|
| The business insider article also claims people start counting
| with their thumb in Portugal but I start with the index finger
| and while I'm not sure everyone else does it, I think using the
| 3 middle fingers to represent the number 3 (like the British
| spy) is far more common than using the thumb.
| skipants wrote:
| I'm Canadian and I'm assuming it's the same as Brits: We
| start counting with our thumb but if we represent a number
| less than 5 _without_ counting then we do not use our thumb.
| That 's why it doesn't contradict what happened in
| Inglourious Basterds.
| uuddlrlr wrote:
| Canuck here too, I grew up starting with index but I see
| lots of thumb starters.
| dspillett wrote:
| English here, and yes _counting_ starts with the thumb but
| going direct to two or three is just fingers. Middle three
| for three, not pinky and the next two or the shocker. This
| isn 't universal, but in my experience by far the most
| common way.
|
| Our spoken and written language is a mess of
| inconsistencies, why shouldn't our numeracy be!
| dylan604 wrote:
| If I start counting thumb-1, index-2, middle-3, i can't raise
| my ring finger without the pinky coming up to properly
| display 4 fingers up.
|
| If I start counting index-1, middle-2, ring-3, my thumb holds
| down the pinky to display 3 fingers.
|
| Until just now, I had never tried, so I assume it is a
| practice thing.
|
| Edit: should have read further in the thread. i'm clearly not
| the only one
| folli wrote:
| This scene is a particular pet peeve of mine (I know it's a
| movie, but everyone needs something to be picky about...).
|
| The character played by Fassbender at one point explains his
| peculiar accent by being born and raised in a village near Piz
| Palu (an hommage by Tarantino to "White Hell of Piz Palu" a
| 1929 silent movie). However, this mountain is located in
| Switzerland, right by the italian border, far away from
| Germany. Still, his cover is blown by a tiny mistake on how he
| orders beer while everyone glances over the glaring
| inconsistency of his birthplace.
| FabHK wrote:
| You could be born in Switzerland to German parents, thus
| being German (with a funny accent to boot). Germany (at the
| time) employed _jus sanguinis_ (=your parents matter), not
| _jus soli_ (=your place of birth matters).
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
| felipelemos wrote:
| Not at the time, they still use jus sanguinis as most of
| European countries.
| Archelaos wrote:
| There had also been quite a few Swiss volunteers that
| fought in the army and the Waffen-SS.[1]
|
| In the context of the special interest that the film
| devotes to the subject of language, locating the birthplace
| of the character near Piz Palu is also a very clever move.
| It is located in the canton of Graubunden (canton of the
| Grisons), which is the only trilingual Swiss canton
| (German, Italian and Romansh).
|
| Another side-note: "White Hell of Piz Palu" is also
| directly quoted in the film: it is shown in the cinema
| where the finale takes place. And this again is an hommage
| to (among others) Leni Riefenstahl, who Tarantino admired
| very much. She played one of the main roles in "Piz Palu".
|
| [1]
| https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=sol-003:1994:69::643
| (In German)
| meowster wrote:
| Counting money can aslo give you away. Video (1:48) showing
| different methods: https://youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ
| odiroot wrote:
| I really like the Chinese way of counting. As far as I remember
| you can go as high as 99 on both hands.
|
| Still, I'm never able to memorise it, no matter how many times I
| learn it.
| FabHK wrote:
| Basically they do the "normal" 1-5 with one hand (well, one of
| the several normal ways), then have specific gestures for 6-10
| with one hand as well. Use both hands and you get to 100, I
| suppose.
| jjgreen wrote:
| Drinking outside a bar in Paris (so table service) with my
| girlfriend, the glasses approach empty so I turn to catch the
| barman's eye. He flicks the Vs (I am culturally sensitive so not
| offended, he means "two more pints?"), I return the thumbs-up. He
| brings one pint.
| dylan604 wrote:
| That's interesting. How can one differentiate the two then?
| Does the wrist position matter? A thumb out with the wrist
| twisted so the thumb is at an angle indicates "1", but a
| forward thrusted wrist so the thumb is pointing up and towards
| the person mean "yes, good job"? Is the second meaning lost
| entirely to the barman?
|
| If you had flashed OK hand gesture, would the barman have
| poured 3 pints, or thought you were a member of a fringe group?
| slim wrote:
| He should have nodded his head
| dylan604 wrote:
| Careful, is that a singular movement from up to down in
| affirmation, or a singular movement from down to up as in
| "what's up"? in some situations, the first would mean send
| in the assassin to take out that person involved in that
| thing. that's one you don't want to use at the wrong time.
| FredPret wrote:
| It's a wonder we humans get anything done
| rpmisms wrote:
| > If you had flashed OK hand gesture... thought you were a
| member of a fringe group?
|
| For what it's worth, this hand sign being a hate dogwhistle
| is pretty much entirely an invention of 4chan.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| It is an amazing way to show how _paranoid_ people are over
| "dogwhistles." Witches are everywhere!
| rpmisms wrote:
| People want to have something to fear or wave pitchforks
| at. It's simple mob psychology, and it's scary.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Perhaps you'd care to explain why this guy has it
| emblazoned on his helmet. As I have pointed out many
| times, simply ignoring people whose ideas you find
| disagreeable doesn't necessarily make them go away.
|
| https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-
| uploads/sites/1/2021/08/08...
| refenestrator wrote:
| Because we're all idiots who got taken in on this by
| 4chan.
|
| The symbol became irresistible to that guy after watching
| liberals lose their minds at it. If it hadn't bothered
| the libs, it would have no use to him.
| rpmisms wrote:
| Hello again, and thank you for saying what I was going
| to.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| Exactly. The Trump crowd is made up of bullies, trolls,
| middle class frat boys and other antisocials, while
| various influencers are feeding them ideas. And horse
| medicine.
| jimmygrapes wrote:
| > The Trump crowd is made up of bullies, trolls, middle
| class frat boys and other antisocials
|
| And millions of others who don't fit a single one of
| those othering statements
|
| > And horse medicine.
|
| Also human medicine for several decades, with perfectly
| safe dosages and formulations.
|
| Please don't spread misinformation.
| underwater wrote:
| But witches are obviously fictional, whereas white
| supremists are very real.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| > invention of 4chan
|
| They set out to transform a symbol, and they succeeded.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol
|
| If you think it isn't real because it was made up,
| Vonnegut's Mother Night has you covered: "We are what we
| pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend
| to be."
| rpmisms wrote:
| I think you're seeing a slightly different narrative.
| 4chan decided to make people upset about the hand sign,
| some major news networks obediently expressed outrage,
| and a whole lot of people who actively dislike said news
| channels discovered a whole new way to generate
| headlines.
| not2b wrote:
| They were so successful at marketing the idea that the
| "ok" sign meant White Power that white nationalists
| started using it that way and the meaning shifted. And
| since a lot of the 4chan people are deeply racist they
| were basically saying "let's take over this symbol". And
| they succeeded.
| kukx wrote:
| As far as I know 4chan people were trolling the media and
| they succeeded. The result is both funny and scary. The
| scary part is that random people's lives are harmed
| because of some innocent photo or gesture. This insanity
| stems not only from media but also the new culture.
| Hopefully when going back to normality we will not swing
| too much to the other side.
| chmod775 wrote:
| They only succeeded if you let them. And if you do I'm
| going to think less of you for enabling them.
|
| Right now this new 'perception' is pretty limited to a
| certain US-centric news bubble. Everyone outside that
| bubble in the US, and generally people everywhere else,
| are likely to laugh in your face if you tried to convince
| them the OK gesture is a hate symbol now.
|
| Your average person hasn't even heard of this inane
| controversy. I for one have to seek out the kind of
| demographic who thinks that way online - because nowhere
| else could I even find anyone.
| grandpa_on_lawn wrote:
| Nodding the head is probably the better way.
| Leherenn wrote:
| It's going to depend based on context. In this case, context
| was unclear and a misunderstanding ensued. I have nothing to
| back this up except experience, but I think the thumb up is
| less common is Europe than in the US.
|
| In this specific case, I think the expected answer is to
| confirm the number by flashing the same sign. A nod would
| also work, but be potentially less clear/easier to be missed.
|
| The ok gesture would likely have worked as well, since in
| France they start counting from the thumb. I don't think the
| fringe group association is well known in France.
| Talanes wrote:
| Every time I've heard some variation of this, the example is
| always three. I'm more interested in four. Does the pattern
| follow through? Because I physically can't hold up 3 fingers and
| my thumb without the pinky going up to, when I do 3, my thumb is
| holding my pinky down.
| coccinelle wrote:
| I think French people would do 4 with just the pinkie down. At
| least this specific French person does :). In my case that
| means the ring finger is not perfectly up, but still enough
| that it's clear it's raised.
| kergonath wrote:
| From my experience most French people keep only the thumb
| down to signal "4". It's easier to do.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I've always counted starting with the thumb, but use fingers only
| when showing a value lower than 5. And this is how my family does
| it too.
| jawns wrote:
| There's a distinction to be made between counting on one's
| fingers and communicating a number with one's fingers.
|
| You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about
| anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of
| fingers. But when it comes to 11 and up, you're generally not
| going to be able to communicate those numbers in a universally
| recognizable way. (Although "flashing" one's hands to represent
| intervals of ten is somewhat well understood.)
|
| On the other hand, it's possible to use your fingers to count to
| numbers higher than 10, using whatever system appeals to you,
| regardless of whether others can understand it. The article talks
| about using the segments between each knuckle.
|
| There's even a further distinction to be made here, though,
| between using your fingers to count and using your fingers to
| maintain state. You might, for instance, be able to easily use
| knuckle segments to count. But to maintain state, you need to
| make some movement with your fingers (e.g. bending a knuckle)
| with each transition period and then hold that new position for
| some period of time. And that can be hard to do with many finger
| positions.
| sorbits wrote:
| _> You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just
| about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding
| number of fingers_
|
| For the numbers 6-10 China have hand gestures where number of
| fingers held up does not correspond to the number.
|
| I was confused by this when I wanted to buy something and the
| lady crossed her two index fingers.
|
| I took it to mean that the item was not for sale (out of
| stock), but later learned that this is the hand gesture for the
| number ten.
| Milolol wrote:
| Money counting as well:
|
| "How money is counted in different countries"
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ
| Causality1 wrote:
| One thing not mentioned is that finger counting methods vary
| based on context as well as culture. If I'm counting to myself I
| start with the thumb. If I'm using finger counting as part of
| body language like by speaking about three points one by one, I
| start with the index finger.
| tyingq wrote:
| Got 3 beers in Germany when I wanted 2 many, many, times before I
| learned.
| jerf wrote:
| You've piqued my curiosity; what did you think meant 2 that
| they thought meant 3?
| tyingq wrote:
| I did index+middle for 2. They would do thumb+index for 2,
| and thumb+index+middle for 3. They didn't do index+middle for
| anything other than maybe "peace sign". So from a distance,
| my "2" would look like "3" to them. It was a rural area in
| Germany, in the late 80's, early 90's.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Index + middle in an upward movement would probably be
| taken as something other than peace
| kubanczyk wrote:
| No, not likely in 90s in Germany. What you're describing
| is primarily a UK gesture. (Wikipedia says also known in
| Ireland, South Africa, Australia, India, etc.)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult
| dylan604 wrote:
| I'm in the US and I'm aware of it (granted most 'muricans
| are not). I'd be willing to wager Europeans would be much
| more aware of the meaning than what you're suggesting.
| tyingq wrote:
| Agree...I never encountered anyone thinking I was
| throwing that insult.
| [deleted]
| kergonath wrote:
| No. Outside the U.K. and Ireland, nobody would take that
| for an insult unless you also use rude language or body
| language.
|
| I actually use it every now and then, for example
| ordering 2 beers at a bar.
| professorsnep wrote:
| I assume holding index and middle fingers up. With the German
| way of counting, usually the thumb would be up as well,
| meaning 3, so it's easily mistaken as a 3 despite only having
| two fingers up.
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(page generated 2021-09-03 23:02 UTC)