[HN Gopher] O.mg Cable
___________________________________________________________________
O.mg Cable
Author : fredley
Score : 1597 points
Date : 2021-09-02 16:25 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (shop.hak5.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (shop.hak5.org)
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| I would advise a trip to MG's own site that has a lot more
| technical information on the cable:
|
| https://mg.lol/blog/
|
| Its kind of cool to see someone I've been following for years and
| seeing the whole dev cycle of this product.
|
| His exploding USB drive was pretty cool and came before this
| idea:
|
| https://mg.lol/blog/mr-self-destruct/
| lmilcin wrote:
| The trick is, you can't buy this particular one because you just
| don't know what it does exactly.
|
| I have tried to make a cable like that in the past be the best I
| got was to hide the electronics in what looked like a bead.
| Unfortunately, this only really works with USB-B devices where
| users are already used to having beads on the cable which for
| practical purposes limits attacks to printers and older scanners.
| peter_retief wrote:
| Scary that this is available to almost anyone now!
| huhtenberg wrote:
| HOLY mother of external linking!
|
| This page pulls stuff off 44 domains!
| tr33house wrote:
| Just visiting this created a _Cart_ on my chrome new tab page for
| Hak 5. Must be a new feature on Google Chrome. Just FYI
| Eiriksmal wrote:
| Wow! Is the trick that we now have powerful microcomputers small
| enough to fit into a USB plug? That's pretty incredible
| technology. How many years ago did this become possible? My IT
| security training is dated, I am aware of the risks of plugging
| in a random USB key, but just a cable from a helpful "coworker"?
| Yikes.
| 5faulker wrote:
| Seems to be very tech-involved though.
| kybernetikos wrote:
| > How many years ago did this become possible?
|
| I don't know, but I do know that back in 2013 you could get an
| ARM computer running linux and a webserver with wifi and 16Gb
| storage in a space the size of an SD card. That is still a bit
| too big to fit inside a USB plug without being obvious, but not
| by much. https://hackaday.com/2013/08/12/hacking-transcend-
| wifi-sd-ca...
|
| Fitting the electronics inside the usb plug itself has been
| used for years in slimline usb memory sticks and in tiny
| readers for micro-sd too.
|
| I expect that this has been possible for nearly 10 years, but
| maybe just not commercially viable for consumers for most of
| that.
| leeoniya wrote:
| > Fitting the electronics inside the usb plug itself has been
| used for years in slimline usb memory sticks and in tiny
| readers for micro-sd too.
|
| those readers usually heat up like crazy for any significant
| length transfers. good in a pinch, though.
| thrashh wrote:
| Eye-Fi started as a company making Wi-Fi SD cards in 2005.
|
| Chips have been small for decades. What's changed over the
| years is that it's gotten cheaper and cheaper.
| verytrivial wrote:
| I'd say the total size of silicon has been small enough for
| this for at least 20 years. The level of integration
| between these components, skipping the need for packaging
| and interconnect is what's allowed these covert devices,
| probably driven by manufacturing optimization that makes is
| financially tractable to only make 100 units, so that bit
| is much cheaper yeah. Things like antennas and other bulky
| non-silicon passive components are probably the limiting
| factor now.
| city41 wrote:
| On a similar note, as I understand it skimmers placed on ATM
| machines and the like are now so small they are almost
| impossible to detect.
| lrvick wrote:
| There is already an Arm Cortex M0+ in the end of every USB type
| C cable for power negotiation.
|
| It has a complex codebase and firmware update methods to
| migrate to new USB specs. Cheap cables don't even support
| signing so go to town tampering with stock cables if you are so
| inclined.
|
| Also an Attiny85 can fit inside just about anything.
|
| My favorite BadUSB hello world is using the Arduino HID library
| to make a Digispark toggle caps lock randomly with maybe 10
| lines of code. Drives people nuts.
| megous wrote:
| > There is already an Arm Cortex M0+ in the end of every USB
| type C cable for power negotiation.
|
| Only some of the Type-C cables. Normal 3A ones don't have
| anything like this.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > now have powerful microcomputers small enough to fit into a
| USB plug
|
| Like 20 years ago? 32 bit micros were actually not that far
| behind low end CPUs until they start to fall off dramatically
| in the 90, and post-90nm age because perf was good enough.
|
| After nineties, CPU improvements were guided as much by
| software getting worse, slower, and more shoddily written, than
| genuine need for more raw computing power.
| fragmede wrote:
| That level of miniaturization is far older than Apple's removal
| of the iPhone headphone jack in 2016, but the related
| lightning-to-audio jack dongle had a microcontroller with a DAC
| inside that you'd never think existed due to the form factor.
| trangus_1985 wrote:
| The Lightning-to-HDMI adapter is also an insane
| miniaturization. It runs a (very) stripped down version of
| iOS/darwin (not sure what apple counts it as) that is loaded
| in about a second when you plug in the phone, establishes a
| network connection, and streams compressed video frames over
| the network over USB to the HDMI.
|
| That's why when you use the iPhone HDMI adapter, everything
| looks a little bit compressed. Because it is.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Yup. It's actually an incredibly clever piece of tech that
| lets the iPad/iPhone get around the fact that lightning
| doesn't have enough bandwidth to transmit HDMI.
|
| For regular home/app views, it does hardware compression of
| the iPad's screen, outputs that over lightning, then the
| adapter decompresses it to raw HDMI.
|
| While for Netflix/etc. streams, it outputs the stream
| _directly_ to the adapter to decompress, without quality
| loss. (And at full size as well, rather than double-
| letterboxed.)
|
| I still haven't figured out the magic of how apps like
| Netflix are able to do overlays of subtitles on top of the
| compressed video stream. Best I can tell, there must be a
| separate API for that, that gets sent in parallel.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| As far as working within the constraints of USB 2, it's a
| solid way to do things.
|
| And I'll even leave aside the issue of running a whole OS
| just to decode video.
|
| But this is dealing with 1080p output. That's not very
| intensive. A lightning port has two high speed data
| pairs. You don't even need USB 3 speeds to transmit HDMI
| over one of those data pairs, and then put in like a $2
| redriver.
|
| If you set up double-sided output I think you could even
| have a _passive_ lightning to HDMI adapter. But that 's a
| side issue, my main point is the bandwidth available that
| makes these tradeoffs unnecessary.
| outworlder wrote:
| Ok, this is the most amazing tidbit I've learned in this
| site in months.
|
| Thanks for the comment. Had no idea. Mind blown.
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| I didn't know about this! Thank you. Truly nuts:
|
| https://hackaday.com/2019/07/30/apple-lightning-video-
| adapto...
| varikin wrote:
| Just for reference, here are a couple breakdowns of how
| impressive the iPhone headphone jack is. It is impressive how
| good it is and how tiny it is.
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/News/8448/apple-audio-adapter-
| teardow...
|
| https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-
| qu...
| duped wrote:
| It would be more impressive if they could fit it inside the
| phone.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Funny enough, that shouldn't be a challenge for Apple
| since the world's slimmest smartphone ever made actually
| has a headphone jack[1], so Apple excuse of not enough
| space inside the phone is horse shit to force everyone
| into the Airpods ecosystem.
|
| [1]https://youtu.be/Ijssm6Qv5nE
| djrogers wrote:
| It was never thickness, it's was depth.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| What's the difference in this case? Volume is a
| multiplication of dimensions on all axis. If they didn't
| compromise on thickness that means they have more
| international volume available to reduce the other
| dimensions which they didn't as modern iPhones don't lack
| depth either, barring the mini, they're all quite large
| on all axis.
| 1-more wrote:
| remember project aria? Apple actually did that and
| everyone got mad!
| NamTaf wrote:
| It's a copy of the NSA ANT Coppermouth cables. That was part of
| the Snowden leak, so it's been possible since at least then
| (the doc itself is circa 2008) if you have a three-letter name
| and a national security black budget.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_ANT_catalog
| maqp wrote:
| Well the technology differs a bit.
|
| The NSA implant was a passive retroreflector implant, which
| when illuminated by powerful radio waves, broadcasted back
| what was being typed, or what was visible on screen.
|
| This seems to be more of a tiny chip that captures and stores
| keystrokes etc.
| cryptonector wrote:
| So, like The Thing?
| emaro wrote:
| Including a web server and radio communication.
| lrvick wrote:
| Attacks like this have been in use since long before that
| leak.
|
| See all the Sandisk U3 drive based badusb payloads that
| people could cleverly hide into all sorts of form factors.
| tossaway9000 wrote:
| Bunnie did a super neat talk about something similar
|
| https://youtu.be/ruEn7TE4YMM
| dylan604 wrote:
| Was it actually something Snowden released, or part of the
| second leaker's data that got attributed to Snowden?
| svnpenn wrote:
| https://wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_ANT_catalog
| sushisource wrote:
| Why is the NSA _so good_ at coming up with sweet codenames
| for things? I swear it 's someone's full time job there.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| The real answer? Because these people are just like us,
| geeks, nerds, techies, early adopters. They are just the
| same people we live and work with.
|
| The film Enemy of the State (1998) was science fiction
| except with the parts where the techy operators were just
| normal nerds like us. That what was most scary part of the
| film not the (at the time fantastic) surveillance.
| einpoklum wrote:
| They are really quite unlike us. And our sets of norms
| is, shall we say, somewhat different to theirs.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| Morality is the difference. That's not exactly "norms"
| but somewhat on an adjacent path. But in terms of
| interest and participation in our club, *they are us*.
| That's the true terrible reality.
|
| A more accessible idea which is quite different but
| allows some truth to shine in similarly is to consider
| how many of us are utterly dependent on advertising in
| our careers but we all adblock personally.
| Teknoman117 wrote:
| I would say it's that the set of morals or beliefs are
| different. Believing that someone is without morals or
| immoral is just the perspective of the observer.
|
| Some of us don't agree with the intelligence gathering
| behaviors of our governments, but they certainly might
| not view it as an issue.
| schoen wrote:
| > That's not exactly "norms" but somewhat on an adjacent
| path. But in terms of interest and participation in our
| club, _they are us_. That 's the true terrible reality.
|
| I remember "Spot the Fed" at DEF CON where I thought it
| was reflecting this deep and kind of intractable
| antagonism between the hackers and the government. It
| turned out that the government was regularly recruiting
| people there and at other hacker conferences, fairly
| successfully, and still does. (First I thought that all
| computer nerds would be at least somewhat anti-military
| or anti-surveillance, and then I thought that at least
| those who actively associate themselves with computer
| culture and counterculture would be, and now I don't
| really think either of those.)
|
| The social distance between people working for spy
| agencies and people who vocally criticize and oppose the
| spy agencies is tiny. I worked at EFF and I've known
| socially, or kind-of-socially, four people I can
| immediately think of who worked directly for NSA at some
| point in their careers, and those are, of course, just
| the ones who chose to mention it. I've also seen someone
| unsuccessfully try to recruit someone for NSA face-to-
| face right in front of me, and had a boss whose next job
| was alongside an NSA alum.
|
| I also think that NSA alums are more likely to mention it
| because they're less likely to have worked under false
| pretenses in other countries (compared to, say, CIA
| alums).
|
| I had a relative who was a super-huge computer nerd (the
| biggest computer nerd in my whole family, possibly more
| than myself, and taught me a lot of my early Unix
| knowledge) who had previously held a clearance and worked
| in aerospace engineering (I think on radars or
| something). He didn't work for a spy agency, but did work
| on military projects. And nobody could hold a candle to
| his Unix expertise.
|
| It's pretty striking how diverse in our beliefs we all
| are (not just about surveillance and espionage, but kind
| of on every issue and question). Maybe we don't notice it
| because of social pressures to act like we agree more
| than we do. Being fascinated with surveillance and
| secrecy is a common trait in our circles, but it seems
| that might translate into trying to fight it, or into
| trying to do it.
| FeepingCreature wrote:
| > The social distance between people working for spy
| agencies and people who vocally criticize and oppose the
| spy agencies is tiny.
|
| That sort of makes sense to me? The average member of the
| public doesn't generally think about what spy agencies
| do. If you assume that recruitment is based more on
| topical proximity than positive/negative opinion, that's
| what you'd expect to see.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| I for one don't necessarily disagree with government
| having a monopoly on violence and all that jazz. But I
| guess that what makes me HN crowd is that I'm also easily
| convinced to change my mind if someone brings up a
| convincing argument.
| xyzal wrote:
| You imply hacking human minds to be more acceptable than
| hacking computers?
| einpoklum wrote:
| No, I'm suggesting people be a bit more critical in their
| choices of who are "us". They are both "us" in some
| senses and "not us" in others.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Absolutely. It's the human mind's responsibility not to
| be "hacked", by which I assume you mean exploited to e.g.
| mindlessly scroll Facebook all day.
|
| If most people are weak enough to become matrix-like
| slaves to the machine, so be it. I don't believe in free
| will and I don't think we need to preserve human life in
| a certain way (e.g. the way our ancestors lived).
|
| Sure, a lot of people will fail this test, or maybe they
| prefer to live their life like that. I don't care, that's
| on them, that's their choice - or, better, the way DNA
| and the environment shaped this human shell.
|
| If instead you wiretap my device, you're attacking my
| privacy and I don't have a way to defend myself. You are
| committing violence.
| batch12 wrote:
| If you don't believe in free will, why should anyone care
| about your will to preserve your privacy? Sounds like you
| only believe in your own free will.
| IncRnd wrote:
| If you don't accept that you have free will, than nothing
| you write or say has any meaning.
| Saptarishi wrote:
| To be fair, I too have ended up thinking that free will
| probably does not exist. Yet everyone else and I will
| always continue to behave and live as if it existed, that
| is my consolation.
| hanche wrote:
| It may be possible to believe you don't have free will,
| yet act like you do and to find meaning in life. After
| all, given how hard it is to even define "free will", how
| can we know for sure whether we have it? Now recent
| research seems to indicate (note the weasel words) that
| we have less of this "free will" stuff than we like to
| think. Yet hopefully, if you dig a little deeper, we find
| something that qualifies as free will, even if we live in
| a deterministic world. Which we don,t quite; see quantum
| mechanics. But a free will based on QM seems no better.
| Who wants a "free will" based on randomness?
|
| Please forgive my ramblings. I may have been reading
| Daniel Dennett too much, most likely with too little
| understanding.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| What someone says or writes could provide information
| useful for predicting the future. That by definition has
| meaning.
| labster wrote:
| There are several industries built around hacking human
| minds: advertising, pay-to-win mobile games, political
| consulting, user engagement services like Facebook, and
| of course literature.
| tkgally wrote:
| > and of course literature
|
| Of course. And education.
| FeepingCreature wrote:
| Eh, by that metric `sudo apt-get install` is hacking your
| system.
| fortran77 wrote:
| I, for one, want to protect my Nation against terrorists.
| hirako2000 wrote:
| Not exactly, you, have been convinced that protecting
| your Nation against terrorism was an important priority,
| so you endorse the budget going into it and the
| infringements on your liberties, in exchange for the
| feeling of safety.
| metamet wrote:
| Pretty confidant that the odds of someone who works for a
| three letter agency responding to you here is much higher
| than most forums.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| You are commenting on a forum full of people who build
| tools and technology for facebook and google and probably
| palintir and a thousand other facial recognition and
| thoughtcrime style systems.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Sure, Facebook and Google are pretty evil organisations
| but they can never match the scope of surveillance of
| governmental agencies.
|
| Facebook and Google need the user to use their services
| and they say (despite the message being in legalese) what
| they're going to track. There is consent involved in
| these organisations, it's a voluntary transaction.
|
| The government can (and did) just intrude on everything
| without consent or penalties.
|
| From a moral point of view, I would be open to work for
| BigTech, but I wouldn't work for a state actor.
| smsm42 wrote:
| In theory, yes. In practice, if you'll try to avoid any
| interaction with sites affiliated with Google, Facebook
| or feeding surveillance data to them, you'll quickly
| discover that the internet became very small and much
| less usable than before. You don't need to use Facebook
| or search on Google to be tracked by them. Google owns
| one of the largest ad networks in existence, so if you
| visit any site that has ads or analytics trackers, the
| data about it will go to Google. Any site featuring
| Facebook social button may feed the data to Facebook. If
| you write to somebody with @gmail address Google knows
| about it. And so on, and so forth. For a highly
| technically skilled person, it _might_ be possible to
| avoid interactions with Big Tech while being able to
| still using modern technology, but it won 't be easy. For
| a normal person without deep technical background it's
| pretty much hopeless unless they avoid using the internet
| entirely. Of course, using the internet is "voluntary",
| but this is a very weak consolation.
|
| And, also, both Google and Facebook eagerly cooperate
| with state actors in censorship and other aspects -
| likely surveillance too. So there's not much difference
| in that aspect whether you work for the government
| directly or for somebody who takes marching orders from
| the government while being formally independent.
| [deleted]
| abvdasker wrote:
| There are probably some generalizable differences between
| software engineers who work for intelligence agencies vs
| private sector engineers. The most significant factor
| being that government engineers need to be able to get a
| security clearance and pass the attendant background
| checks and interviews. Most of the engineers I've worked
| with in the private sector probably couldn't pass these
| checks because of foreign nationality or recreational
| drug use. It's a virtual certainty that the need for a
| security clearance produces a strong selection effect.
| Not saying it makes the intelligence engineers better or
| worse just that I'm sure there are some significant
| differences.
| restingrobot wrote:
| I just wanted to point out that obtaining a security
| clearance is not nearly as hard as you make it sound. For
| _most_ organizations prior recreational drug use does not
| preclude you from the clearance.
| scthrow wrote:
| I have a clearance and a somewhat checkered past.
|
| A lot of what they look for is consistency in accounts of
| previous behaviors between you and any references /
| interviews they undertake, trying to assess if you're
| currently honest.
|
| Another big thing they are trying to decide is if you are
| blackmailable.
|
| (throwaway because I have the sort of clearance you are
| not supposed to advertise that you have)
| wyclif wrote:
| Can confirm (source: I have a friend that works for a
| three-letter agency). Before I sit for a clearance
| interview, I asked him about it. I used to think I'd
| probably be disqualified, but I learned that was not the
| case at all. Much of what they're trying to determine is
| your exposure to potential blackmail.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| How recent? Posts like "FBI can't find hackers" have been
| frontpaging for years but people who have responded to
| the ads say they were dismissed at the clearance step or
| advised to not continue due to it.
| thrownblown wrote:
| John McAfee discussing getting his security clearance
| when he worked for Lockheed-Martin: "They asked me very
| revealing questions.... Had I ever taken drugs? Yes. What
| kinds? Almost every kind. Uh, how much? A lot. Have you
| ever sold drugs? Yes. So I assumed I would never get the
| clearance but I did and it came in very quickly."
|
| (clearly decades ago, and he's less than reliable, but
| fun nonetheless!)
| ByteJockey wrote:
| It's not so much a problem if you do drugs.
|
| It's a problem if you do drugs and are hiding it from
| someone (say, family). Then you can be blackmailed.
| [deleted]
| mlang23 wrote:
| Maybe they are like you, but they are definitely not like
| me.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Amen, brother. The spooks recruited at my university, but
| I skipped that session. Hard pass.
| 6177c40f wrote:
| And let's not forget that many of them are probably
| browsing HN at this very moment. They could be you, they
| could be me!
| apricot wrote:
| hi
| mhh__ wrote:
| Maybe they are you(r open source code)
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| > They could be you, they could be me!
|
| Couldn't be me: the private sector pays me waaaaaaaay
| more.
|
| Also, you can't work for the feds if you ever touch the
| ganja, which is ridiculous. _Everyone_ I personally know
| in infosec leads a very... alternative west-coast
| lifestyle which is not conducive to career progression in
| an east-coast, button-down-shirt environment.
| loxias wrote:
| This.
|
| I entertained the idea of working in the public sector a
| while ago, for a brief time, until I learned that pot is
| fine in my past, but not in my present. "How the heck do
| you expect me to get the code written?"
|
| Also, I've been told that getting a clearance is more
| burden than blessing. You have restrictions that an
| "ordinary person" doesn't have, along with criminal
| penalties for violating them. Whereas, without a
| clearance, if they _really_ need you for something, they
| 'll bring you in anyway.
| jdironman wrote:
| Not sure I understand those last two sentences. Could you
| clarify?
| balls187 wrote:
| Things may have changed, but in my prior life when I had
| a clearance, for example, dating (or marrying for that
| matter) a foreign national would result in heavy vetting,
| including possibly losing your clearance and/or being
| terminated.
| nirse wrote:
| I hope it would have just been your contract that would
| have been terminated? ;-)
| balls187 wrote:
| These days I don't believe spying results in death, just
| a long vacation at club fed.
| frickinLasers wrote:
| Don't do drugs (including marijuana), don't get blackout
| drunk, don't talk about your work, don't need psychiatric
| help... For the last sentence...Trump had all sorts of
| clearance when he clearly should not have. But he was in
| an important position.
| garmaine wrote:
| > don't need psychiatric help
|
| Does that include regular old things like ADHD meds?
| skoskie wrote:
| No it does not.
| frickinLasers wrote:
| I don't know. I haven't worked in that system for many
| years. That said, it was more received wisdom than a
| written rule, and I was aware of exceptions who were
| prescribed more than ADHD meds.
| vxNsr wrote:
| Putting aside the politics of it for a second, all
| clearence stems from the executive branch which stems
| from the president. Saying the president shouldn't have
| clearance doesn't make a lot of sense, he's the one who
| authorized it. He's the one who decides who gets it.
|
| Anyone who thinks differently is arguing for a shadow
| gov, i.e. unelected bureaucrats who answer to no one and
| can make decisions unilaterally without consequence...
| not exactly democracy.
| frickinLasers wrote:
| That statement wasn't about politics at all. Let me put
| it another way: Had he been trying to get clearance for a
| normal position, he would probably not have received it.
|
| I also never said he had access to _everything_. Nobody
| has access to everything. Not arguing for a shadow
| government--it 's already a fact. It happened when
| classification rules went from "what would harm national
| security" to "what would cause problems if American
| citizens found out we were doing this."
| garmaine wrote:
| In principle the president has access to EVERYTHING.
| There is literally nothing he shouldn't have access to,
| at least within the executive branch which includes
| nearly all military/defense/intel secrets.
|
| The only thing he does not have unrestricted access to is
| Justice department stuff (e.g. FBI), although there'd
| better be a damn good reason to deny it to POTUS if he
| asks, and legislative branch secrets which really
| infrequently comes into play. That's due to the whole
| separation-of-powers, checks-and-balances thing. But
| security clearances for everything in the executive
| branch stem FROM the president. If he wants to reveal
| some state secret, he can just tweet it with no
| consequences, or blurt it out while on the phone with
| foreign states. As Trump did on multiple occasions.
|
| That said, of course there is a significant deep state
| bureaucracy which attempts at times to keep certain
| things hidden, even from the current president. But if
| the president were to ask about it, they have to tell
| him.
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| > Anyone who thinks differently is arguing for a shadow
| gov, i.e. unelected bureaucrats who answer to no one and
| can make decisions unilaterally without consequence...
| not exactly democracy.
|
| Lots of countries have an establishment "civil service"
| comprised of those "unelected bureaucrats" that you
| mention, and it actually works out quite well for them.
|
| That said, they aren't unaccountable: they answer to
| departmental heads, MPs, committees, etc. A big advantage
| of the system is to prevent mad-swings in policy just
| because the head-of-government changed.
|
| For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Service_
| (United_Kingdom)
| andrepd wrote:
| >A big advantage of the system is to prevent mad-swings
| in policy just because the head-of-government changed.
|
| You can frame this another way: it prevents meaningful
| change even if the electorate demands it.
|
| Sorry, I watched too much Yes Minister to think this is a
| good thing x)
| skoskie wrote:
| Has a certain "damned if you do, damned if you don't"
| vibe. There are pros and cons to both.
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| Yes, of course - but if a country already had a well-
| oiled establishment civil-service which kept its finger
| on the pulse of the nation then it would already be
| aligned with the electorates' interests and voting-
| intent.
|
| I recognize I'm basically describing a utopia.
| vinay_ys wrote:
| Any power structure naturally seeks permanence.
| Democratic elections with short office terms goes against
| the nature. If we are not vigilant, shadowy forces will
| take control of this mechanism too. Some could argue it
| already has happened.
| ShannyBabes123 wrote:
| I like how Putin describes his impression of the powers
| of the US President. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xykv
| rGpCW6E&ab_channel=Russi...
| hacker_newz wrote:
| How is this a constructive response?
| BeetleB wrote:
| Friend of mine is head of IT for some government agency.
| Not a spooky one - just a routine agency. However, given
| the nature of IT and the data they need to store - they
| are required to get security clearance.
|
| For him it's been a minor nuisance at worst. He has
| strong restrictions on travel. I think he needs approval
| to travel abroad. He has relatives in other countries and
| visits them often, so it can't be _too_ much of a
| nuisance.
|
| I believe he told me that he does have to report details
| of where he went in each country and who he interacted
| with upon his return. Not sure about the details.
|
| Official website:
| https://www.dm.usda.gov/ohsec/TravelResource.htm
| JamesSwift wrote:
| > I've been told that getting a clearance is more burden
| than blessing
|
| Yes it definitely can be, but depends on your personality
| and stage of life. You are always cognizant of having a
| clearance and the need to maintain it, and so you
| consider that in your every day life. You also have to
| open your life up in uncomfortable ways, even if your
| only objection is in principal.
|
| You probably don't sweat it too much later in life since
| you generally are a more 'boring' person, but I had mine
| in my mid 20's so was a lot more active in terms of
| social life. One time I was in downtown SF with a buddy
| hitting up bars etc and eventually had to cut out early
| because things were getting more drug oriented. I also
| used to play a lot of cards before getting a clearance
| and had contacts who were in some shady stuff. I
| basically excommunicated them from my life to avoid the
| clearance hassle.
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| you can do the really spooky stuff without going to
| prison. that's why they do it
| Ms-J wrote:
| This is very much the truth, I used to work in infosec.
| Plus the moral implications of working for the feds! Too
| much on my conscience.
| skoskie wrote:
| Here's a different picture. Put in your 20y at NSA right
| out of school. Get retirement benefits, and then move to
| the private sector, where they pay a premium for NSA
| experience. Or, do contract work for NSA since you
| already have clearance and contacts. They will pay you
| about 4x more as a contractor.
| nanidin wrote:
| > Also, you can't work for the feds if you ever touch the
| ganja, which is ridiculous
|
| I believe it is possible to get security clearance after
| cessation of drugs for multiple years, even drugs like
| Heroin. I found the full rules[0] while reading an AMA on
| /r/SecurityClearance.
|
| [0] https://www.dni.gov/files/NCSC/documents/Regulations/
| SEAD-4-...
| Fnoord wrote:
| > Also, you can't work for the feds if you ever touch the
| ganja, which is ridiculous.
|
| Calling it 'ridiculous' removes the debate concerning the
| pros and cons on such rule. If you consider someone can
| become vulnerable if they're addicted (to anything,
| really) then it makes sense to be wary of a drugs
| addiction. Especially if the resource the person is
| addicted to is illegal.
|
| That being said, I'd find it reasonable if they OK'ed
| medical marihuana usage. I hope my gov (NL) does.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| Well it's a comparison. Not once on the security
| clearance paperwork is alcohol mentioned, while if you
| have smoked/eaten/etc. marijuana at ALL in the past 7
| years, it's practically an instant deny unless it was
| under some exigent circumstance. You can even be denied
| if you don't partake but are close contacts with other
| marijuana users.
|
| Obviously if someone is _addicted_ to either, that is a
| security risk. But the extent to which they reject people
| for recreational marijuana use is laughable.
| cosmojg wrote:
| Can't you just lie?
| skoskie wrote:
| That is not wise. You do have to take a lie detector
| test, and they are actually good at reading the results.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| They contact all your close contacts listed on the
| paperwork. Lying also constitutes perjury in this case.
|
| The unofficial advice I've heard is to not even bother
| with SC if you use weed. Generally, it will be found out.
| I looked into this as needing an SC was a possibility
| with my current job.
| teawrecks wrote:
| So you don't think any alcoholics work for the NSA?
| madengr wrote:
| Plenty of people have lost their clearances over drinking
| too much.
| cosmojg wrote:
| Not to mention, alcohol is a far more physiologically
| addictive substance.
| skoskie wrote:
| So much tastier too.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Piss off, spies. Why don't you come over to the light
| side of the force?
| droidist2 wrote:
| I mean, it's a spectrum really isn't it? NSA, Facebook,
| Google, they're all involved in surveillance in different
| ways and to different degrees.
| maqp wrote:
| IIRC the funny thing is, the system that provides the
| codenames is random in order for the system to not leak
| information about what the code name is for. But since
| there's no limit to how many times you can request a code
| name, the system is being abused and users try until they
| get a good one.
| zarmin wrote:
| What was the codename for the project to create that
| system?
| mhh__ wrote:
| The British system were called Rainbow Codes
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Code
|
| See this from the article:
|
| "During WWII, British intelligence was able to glean
| details of new German technologies simply by considering
| their code names. For instance, when they began hearing
| of a new system known as Wotan, Reginald Victor Jones
| asked around and found that Wotan was a one-eyed god.
| Based on this, he guessed it was a radio navigation
| system using a single radio beam. This proved correct,
| and the Royal Air Force was able to quickly render it
| useless through jamming."
|
| Read R.V. Jones book "Most secret* war" if this kind of
| war-engineering interests you.
|
| * Pay attention to "most secret" rather than the ghastly
| Americanism "top secret"!
| Closi wrote:
| Probably "Project Phoenix".
|
| If you ask any project team to come up with a project
| name they will probably pick 'Project Phoenix'.
| erhk wrote:
| Because all project work is reviving something that has
| been done before?
| jl6 wrote:
| Because projects start in the smouldering ruins of as-is,
| and their business case is mythical (and if you want to
| rise in this environment you'd better be flame-
| retardant).
| wincy wrote:
| No dude because it's a badass name. If it's super cool
| you get to name it "Operation Dark Phoenix" which is even
| more badass.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| Because the product is mythical and it will all end in
| flames.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| The Phoenix did not end in flames. It started in flames.
| richardw wrote:
| It's immortal and cyclical. There is no beginning or end.
| Popular focus is obviously on one part of that cycle.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)
| neuronic wrote:
| No, because all new projects are on fire from the get go.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| That or NexGen/NextGen.
|
| Someone should do a study...
| exikyut wrote:
| * _Sigh_ *
|
| ...Telstra in Australia called the transition from its 3G
| network to 4G "Next-G".
|
| Why is this suddenly so depressing lol ._.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| For those looking for a source: Ed talks about this in
| his book
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/46223297-permanent-
| recor...
| elzbardico wrote:
| Far better names than Microsoft or IBM
| hbn wrote:
| Microsoft Integrated Microcomputer Plug-and-Play Cable
| Office 365 Extended Subscription for Workgroups 2021
| Powered by Bing
| echelon wrote:
| Google Play Game Libraries _for Play_ (a real product
| name)
|
| I can't find a link referencing it, sadly.
| nocman wrote:
| Affectionately known as "MIMPCO 365 ESWPB 2021"
|
| Hey! That's my Windows 10 product key!
|
| (not really, but felt like it could be).
| MR4D wrote:
| Can't be a Windows key - it's too easy to type! ;)
| glitchc wrote:
| It's missing a K, a Q and a W, at least.
| fidesomnes wrote:
| yeah thats right, lick the boot right there, you missed a
| spot, yeah that's right.
| spoonjim wrote:
| Coppermouth is just a combination of two American venomous
| snakes: the copperhead and the cottonmouth.
| onionisafruit wrote:
| No. It's a combination of duracell copper top batteries
| and smashmouth
| selcuka wrote:
| Coppermouth is a typo, the actual name NSA gave it is
| Cottonmouth, a species of pit viper.
| NamTaf wrote:
| My apologies! I completely missed that I made that typo.
| Either I was in the throes of exhaustion or my phone
| spellchecked me :( Now it's too late to edit.
|
| Yes, Cottonmouth is correct.
| ncmncm wrote:
| Coppermouth would be a good code name. Cottonmouth? Meh.
| andai wrote:
| In 2008 we had USB flash drives which extended only two
| millimeters beyond the laptop when you plugged them in, and
| Wifi dongles in the same form factor.
| dylan604 wrote:
| In the leaks that happened around the time of Snowden's
| revelations, there were DVI/monitor cables that had
| transmitters that would broadcast the decrypted signal so that
| someone with the receiver nearby could "share" the screen. No
| software installed for security software to find. Just a cable
| that could be installed by the cleaning crew after hours.
| janekm wrote:
| Not just the microcontroller but also the wifi radio and
| antenna... But a USB-A socket is pretty big anyway. This isn't
| too different from the tiny wireless mouse dongles that have
| been around for a few decades.
| moonchild wrote:
| See also http://tomu.im/.
| haswell wrote:
| When Apple inevitably removes all physical ports from some future
| iteration of iPhone, I wonder if they'll use the existence of
| tech like this to market the change as a benefit to security.
|
| I'm simultaneously impressed, curious and disturbed.
| system2 wrote:
| I still don't understand why they even have usb connection on
| Iphone. I have not attached a cable to it for years. Wireless
| charging, bluetooth headset, and all other bluetooth devices.
| Icloud backup as well as government spyware called CSAM never
| needed a cable.
| Minenash wrote:
| I still use the 3.5mm headphone jack over Bluetooth, because
| of the price of Bluetooth headphones, and also not having to
| ever worry about battery life. The only downside for me is
| that I can't use the headphones, and charge and walk around,
| but that's a lot less annoying then the other things. And
| with Bluetooth, there tends to be brief pauses (<1sec) where
| I can't hear anything.
|
| I also use my phone as my computers webcam. It's _way_ better
| wired than the wifi for me (which honestly shouldn 't be
| true, but).
|
| I almost never use wireless charging, because it takes longer
| to charge, is everyday inefficient, and most people don't own
| wireless chargers. And even if they do, it's never in as many
| places as normal chargers. On an old phone, I ruined the port
| and had to only use wireless charging, and it was so
| annoying.
|
| And app development is so much nicer when you have a USB
| connection. When I lost the ability to do so, coding was a
| good amount more work
| tcoff91 wrote:
| I use the USB connection every day to do iOS development. A
| high bandwidth reliable wired link is a very nice thing to
| have for dev.
| system2 wrote:
| They can sell developer phones if needed. The percentage of
| developers probably is not even 0.001%
| progman32 wrote:
| As an aside: somewhat ironic that a shop selling gear such as
| this has such a large 3rd-party javascript footprint. At least
| some of that js is required for the page to work, as I'm unable
| to see pictures of the device. I counted 25 3rd party domains in
| uMatrix. That's quite the attack surface.
| foxfluff wrote:
| It threw a modal at me after enabling scripts and scrolling a
| bit. Yeah, not reading further.
| MaxikCZ wrote:
| Oh why thank you. Yes, I just landed on your page for the
| first time, looking around to see what you got there.
|
| What? If only I give you my email adress you will send me
| info about your page on a weekly basis as if I were the most
| interested person? And I have no guarantee you wont share my
| adress further? That sounds like an amazing deal! Let me sign
| up right now, before I even can read a paragraph on your
| page, I feel like I will definetly not regret it.
|
| --
|
| Seriously, how do these modals still have high enough
| conversion rate to justify their existence?
| Natsu wrote:
| You can get pictures if you enable scripts for a couple of
| shopify domains, but it just looks like an ordinary USB cable,
| which is kind of the point.
| [deleted]
| hoppla wrote:
| I bought something from them once, and they shared my email
| address with Facebook to do targeted advertising - that was not
| something I expected they would do.
| moron4hire wrote:
| How is that ironic? Seems more in-character. Selling a device
| to steal data, they also extract data from whomever is visiting
| the site.
| londons_explore wrote:
| These are normally made with something like an esp32 squeezed
| into the plug.
|
| To exfiltrate data by WiFi, there is a neat way to get data
| out... Just have the esp32 connect to all unencrypted WiFi
| networks in turn and send the data out via a DNS tunnel.
|
| Then the attacker can provide their own WiFi network, but it will
| also work with airplane WiFi, cafe WiFi, guest networks, etc.
|
| And obviously with DNS tunnelling it works against WiFi networks
| that require a 'sign in' after connection, even without signing
| in.
| zbentley wrote:
| Yet another reaffirmation that physical access is game over.
|
| "But the case is locked!" Are the peripherals? Even if the case
| connectors are locked away behind a bird-box/knockout, if someone
| left one of these dangling unplugged off of the keyboard, do you
| think your field technician won't unlock the box and plug it
| right back in?
| anonu wrote:
| This is incredible.
|
| I remember in the early days of the web getting a copy of the
| Anarchist Cookbook. One idea was to glue the phosphorus material
| from a match stick to the spinning portion of a floppy disk. Of
| course that was a n00b level hack.
|
| We've come a long way since then...
| geniium wrote:
| This is crazy! Everyone can be James Bond today
| Ansil849 wrote:
| The product description does a really poor job of explaining what
| this is to someone who has never heard of it. It's just a wink-
| wink-nudge-nudge reference to some DEFCON talk.
|
| Can someone explain what this is? Is it a hardware keylogger?
| distortedsignal wrote:
| It can also do keystroke injection.
| auslegung wrote:
| I want to need one of these things. Pranks on my friends are
| difficult with a lockdown and permanent wfh status, so I'd need a
| better reason. Can anyone think of non evil uses? My imagination
| is stunted I guess.
| yreg wrote:
| I'd be afraid to prank someone with a tool like this. It seems
| like it would be easy to unintentionally hack said friend or at
| least make them believe that you might have hacked them.
| Arrath wrote:
| Mine is too, I can only come up with prank ideas.
|
| I do wonder how thoroughly they vet their customers, and what
| silly things I could get up to with one.
| rkagerer wrote:
| Couple legitimate uses could be to test a driver or "port
| mirror" for debugging. (It does more than just keylog... eg.
| logs raw HID reports)
| jmartrican wrote:
| We can't even trust our own cables. How do we combat this type of
| attack vector?
| fredley wrote:
| Buy your own cables, and as you unwrap them, secure a tamper
| seal around them in some way. Commit the tamper seal codes to
| memory. Only then can you be absolutely sure.
| pdimitar wrote:
| Can somebody recommend good charging cables with the data lanes
| disabled? Would put my mind at ease when I'm traveling.
| judge2020 wrote:
| I can't find any on Google that specifically are made without
| the data lane. Maybe these magnetic ones don't do data[0].
| Could also try burning the data lanes on the lightning part of
| the cable[0] (although you might have issues if it's a
| lightning-to-C cable, I would guess it uses the data lanes for
| power negotiation).
|
| 0: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3-in-1-cable-led-
| ligh...
|
| 1: https://nyansatan.github.io/lightning/
| pdimitar wrote:
| Good warning, thank you.
|
| I don't care much about quick charging when in a hotel room
| though. I just want to make sure my phone isn't being probed
| while I'm sleeping.
|
| And when I need quick charging, I have the right cables and a
| strong external battery.
| not1ofU wrote:
| Somethink like this, it is adapter with data lanes removed, for
| charging in public places. There are other tools like the ones
| listed on the hak5 site also.
| https://maltronics.com/products/usb-protector The guy running
| the site also has a youtube channel focused on security related
| tech news https://www.youtube.com/c/Seytonic/featured.
| etskinner wrote:
| You could do that, but then you'd need to forgo USB Power
| Delivery, Qualcomm quick charging, etc.
|
| One thing I've heard other comments mention here is a USB
| condom (USB data blocker). It's just a male to female adapter
| with only the power lines patched through, not data lines.
| rsync wrote:
| I can vouch for usb condoms.
|
| Not only do they allow safe use of Arbitrary power ports but
| they also allow me to charge my phone from my laptop without
| syncing for updating things...
| sva_ wrote:
| If you have a powerbank with you (which may be empty), you
| could also charge the powerbank using the untrusted power
| source, and at the same time charge the phone via powerbank
| to "sanitize" the source. This way you could still benefit
| from quickcharging.
| pdimitar wrote:
| Yep, this is what I usually end up doing while traveling.
| The battery doesn't care about the data lane even if the
| charger is somehow malicious, and my devices get pure
| juice.
| dolmen wrote:
| Do you have references for powerbanks that support
| QuickCharge?
| pdimitar wrote:
| Most of them do nowadays. I used both Anker and Xiaomi
| and both were excellent.
| pdimitar wrote:
| USB condom LOL :D
|
| Got any links for those?
| dredmorbius wrote:
| https://duckduckgo.com/?q=USB+condom&ia=about
| pdimitar wrote:
| Thanks for exercising being snarky!
|
| I _very obviously_ meant concrete brands and models that
| people would recommend.
|
| I'm touched that you think I can't search for stuff on
| the net. :D
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Your "very obviously" wasn't read that way here.
|
| Synctstop and Int3.cc seem to be popular. The latter is
| recommended by Bruce Schneier here: https://www.schneier.
| com/blog/archives/2018/12/bad_consumer_...
| lrvick wrote:
| See also:
|
| C-to-C charger cables with Bluetooth remote activated dual
| payloads: https://sneaktechnology.com/product/usbninja-custom-
| type-c-t...
|
| I easily modified mine to mimmic Apple Keyboard USB IDs to avoid
| notifications. Works great!
|
| Cellular GPS tracking car charger:
| https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Locator-Professional-Listenin...
|
| Cellular GPS tracking USB charger cable:
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/223990414124
|
| I have been making, collecting, and testing toys like this for
| more than a decade.
|
| It is a race to the bottom on price now.
|
| Your best defense for USB code execution attacks is use Linux
| with USBGuard or QubesOS with the default USB quarantine VM.
|
| Windows and Mac users are currently easy targets. I don't know of
| any good defenses there.
| lostmsu wrote:
| Am I missing something? The worst thing the cable can do is
| send HID commands, and snoop on traffic between your USB-
| connectable device and PC?
| PeterisP wrote:
| "HID commands" are a big thing given sufficient automation.
| You can execute arbitrary code with just HID commands either
| by typing everything in, or by having the cable present a
| storage device from which to get data and using HID commands
| to enable the storage device, fetch and execute it.
| blablabla123 wrote:
| USB has been littered with bugs. I never got why this didn't
| get more news coverage but at least it was possible to read
| memory from USB. Personally for me it's also a reason that I
| switched to USB-C that there are less people around with
| USB-C cables.
|
| https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/118854/attacks-.
| ..
| lrvick wrote:
| They could do lots of things:
|
| - Keylogging
|
| - Manipulate USB Power negotiation to cook your hardware
|
| - Sniff traffic from other USB devices on the same internal
| hub.
|
| - Log your location
|
| - Log screen lock/unlock times/habits via voltage draw and
| permitted device type enumeration
|
| - Install malware via keyboard emulation
|
| - Sound exfiltration by emulating USB speakers
|
| - Screenshot by emulating a USB/thunderbolt external monitor
|
| - Mouse movement/click injection to prevent screen locking
|
| - Exfiltrate data to hidden internal flash memory
| hansjorg wrote:
| See for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMA_attack
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| You can actually do quite a lot with it, in terms of getting
| data and dropping various payloads:
|
| _There is also an editor and parser for Duckyscript - the
| scripting language used by the Rubber Ducky offensive USB
| drive - which acts as a virtual keyboard and launches
| keystroke injection attacks. That alone opens up a wide array
| of custom payloads for the O.MG cable. There also appear to
| be attack payloads for Windows and Ubuntu systems._
|
| _In April 2019, when the video was released, MG and the team
| of hackers working on the embedded cable were also developing
| extra functions such as detecting user activity /inactivity.
| According to the Hak5 listing, they also appear to have
| cracked another key problem: USB enumeration._
|
| https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/10/02/omg-evil-
| lightni...
| tubbs wrote:
| With growing car theft in the US I've been curious about
| implanting GPS trackers on my own older enthusiast vehicles.
| There appears to be many options on Amazon but I can't bring
| myself to trust any of them. Has anyone here gone down that
| road before?
| CobaltFire wrote:
| I second this, and hope someone has some advice/input.
| djrogers wrote:
| > With growing car theft in the US
|
| Odd, this got me wondering, and I can't find any reliable
| statistics that show a rise in car thefts. Everything I see
| shows a pretty steady decline over the past 30 years in spite
| of an increasing the number of cars on the road.
| mhh__ wrote:
| It might be an interesting project to build your own in this
| case.
|
| If you want to trust them I would have as much redundancy as
| you are comfortable paying for i.e. the software in these
| products is often dogshit so one failure or bug shouldn't let
| your car end in a scrap merchant.
| chillaxtian wrote:
| AirTag
| spiderfarmer wrote:
| Doesn't work as it notifies the person traveling with it.
| smoldesu wrote:
| What if I don't have an iPhone
| hultner wrote:
| Of you hide it well enough? I can think of some creative
| spots in a car, like behind the dash, in the door, inside
| of the a seat, etc.
| kube-system wrote:
| If the thief has an iPhone, they will see this: https://s
| m.mashable.com/mashable_pk/image/default/uploads252...
| giarc wrote:
| I thought it only chirped if the owner clicked that
| option in "Find My" app.
| callesgg wrote:
| Its not that it is chirps it is that any iPhone beeing
| tracked by a airtag for a extended amount of time will
| inform its owner that it is being tracked.
| StingyJelly wrote:
| It's quite easy to clobber the speaker
| flutas wrote:
| It still alerts (UI Prompt) on any iPhone that it travels
| with for too long (~24hr).
| pvarangot wrote:
| I would only do this if you either know the police will help
| retrieve your car if you have the location, or if you are
| ready to engage the robbers yourself. Otherwise it's useless
| to know where it is.
|
| I have experience trying to get the cops to help in Oakland
| and San Jose and they really didn't want to.
| bigiain wrote:
| A lot of the cellular gps trackers have ignition kill
| capability, where you can send it a specific sms message
| and it'll pull a wire to ground or open circuit a pair of
| wires, which you can use to remotely kill the engine.
|
| A friend of mine got a motorcycle back by watching its
| movements via the gps tracking, and killing the engine
| while the guy was riding in a safe-ish and high visibility
| place, so the thief just parked it and walked away.
| sealeck wrote:
| I imagine (not a lawyer) that this expose you to a
| variety of charges.
| pvarangot wrote:
| IANAL, but I think in California as long as you don't use
| excessive force it's ok, but yeah if you kill the engine
| at a high speed or if you get unlucky and the thief gets
| seriously injured then you will get in trouble if they
| want to go after you.
| frickinLasers wrote:
| This is ridiculous. Wtf are cops good for, then?
| lrem wrote:
| From European experience: dealing with violent crime and
| writing reports for insurance claims for others.
| ncmncm wrote:
| Cracking heads. The rest is just PR.
|
| They don't work for you. They know they don't work for
| you.
| dilyevsky wrote:
| Tbf oakland is a low bar (as well as sf). Here just 15 mi
| down the road they investigated and arrested a credit
| card thief who stole my wife's card and I didn't even ask
| for it. They also regularly capture cat converter thieves
| with sting operations. Overall I've been quite impressed
| with San Mateo PD
| pvarangot wrote:
| We were also surprised by the Oakland thing, as I know
| they helped with petty crime where the damage was less
| than a full blown stolen car. It was not a very shady
| area and it was in their jurisdiction. I heard it's not
| that uncommon, and a SFPD officer told us that it's
| probably because we said the robbers where armed and they
| just don't get involved with that.
|
| The car got recovered by an asset management crew though
| and it went smoothly AFAIK.
| mrexroad wrote:
| I second this. I even had a local Bay Area PD help me
| recover a stolen bike after finding it posted.
| lb1lf wrote:
| -Wouldn't an airtag (or two...) fit the bill nicely?
|
| (Assuming even car thieves use iPhones there's some poetic
| justice to be served in their own smartphones bringing them
| down...)
| surfsvammel wrote:
| They will get a warning saying there is an air tag
| travelling with them. I have this problem. We have an air
| tag on one of my kids shoes when we are out, and whenever
| I'm not with them, my partner gets spammed with warnings on
| her phone saying there is an unknown air tag travelling
| with her.
| JTbane wrote:
| That's Apple's so-called "stalker warning", a ridiculous
| concept.
| bigiain wrote:
| > a ridiculous concept
|
| Says a guy who's never had a friend or family member
| who's been stalked.
| JTbane wrote:
| If someone can get close enough to drop an AirTag on your
| person or in your car, they can harm you regardless.
| djur wrote:
| A lot of people have the opportunity to interact with
| your (unattended) car or your belongings in situations
| where they couldn't harm you without taking a substantial
| risk. Imagine a person you interact with at a bar who
| drops an AirTag in your purse while you are briefly
| distracted.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| > We have an air tag on one of my kids shoes when we are
| out
|
| what the hell?
| surfsvammel wrote:
| We use this when we are at amusement parks, museums or in
| the city. We also have a piece of white tape, with our
| phone number, on the kids so that if they get lost, and
| someone finds them, they can call us up.
| after_care wrote:
| Seems legit, kids can run away or be kidnapped. It's
| important to know where your kids are.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| > Seems legit, kids can run away or be kidnapped. It's
| important to know where your kids are.
|
| Ah yes. This statement is more terrifying than Apples
| half-assed PR fireball a few days ago.
|
| The same folks who bought iphones because its has better
| "privacy" than Android...
|
| ...are using iphones to track their kids whereabouts.
| It's like a dystopian punchline masked in the _Friends_
| laugh track.
| Tostino wrote:
| Tracking a kid at an amusement park, presumably a quite
| young one, is entirely fine IMO. I remember when I was 4
| or so, I waited until my parents weren't looking to sneak
| off and go play with a toy in the gift shop my parents
| didn't let me see earlier in the day. I just about gave
| them a heart attack.
| canadianfella wrote:
| What's the problem?
| _carbyau_ wrote:
| Yeah it is important to know where your kids are. I go
| with "pay attention".
|
| I guess there are going to be scenarios where tracking
| could help and maybe even allow the kids freedom to roam
| within a large zone - the back paddock of a farm say -
| while still allowing parents to find them.
|
| But I still like capability and trust more.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| Some people have more children than adults. "Pay
| attention" is the default state but it's not always
| possible to pay complete attention to both children and
| everything else, every moment of every day.
| e-clinton wrote:
| Right. All depends on age. Makes sense for an 8y/o, not
| for a 15y/o
| surfsvammel wrote:
| This is for a 3y/o and a 5y/o
| [deleted]
| yellowapple wrote:
| Right? Who the hell puts the tracker in a shoe? Shoes can
| be taken off.
|
| Professionals put the trackers in the kids' teeth, _a la_
| Spy Kids.
| blantonl wrote:
| I think the airtag might actually alert them that they are
| being tracked - the anti-stalker features built into the
| network will alert an iPhone user when an airtag they don't
| own is in the vicinity while moving and changing locations.
| aero142 wrote:
| If the air tag is sufficiently hidden, perhaps this is a
| feature and not a bug. Maybe this will make them stop the
| car and leave it, which sounds like a win to me.
| lrvick wrote:
| Check out AutoPi. Open source, plugs into your ODBII port so
| you can not only track your car but also get maintaince
| alerts etc.
| drewzero1 wrote:
| Depending on how old the enthusiast vehicles are, they
| probably don't have an OBD-II port (or possibly any port at
| all). None of mine do, up to the mid 90s.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| My truck barely has an electrical system (6v, positive
| earth), let alone a computer.
| fragmede wrote:
| 1996 is when OBD2 became mandatory for all cars
| manufactured in the United States
| Sebb767 wrote:
| > plugs into your ODBII port
|
| Which is usually quite easy to check. It's not a guarantee,
| but with someone sophisticated enough to crack a modern car
| there's a good possibility they know to check the OBDII
| slot.
| lrvick wrote:
| They come with extension cables. You can always plug it
| in under the dash and leave the exposed one disconnected.
|
| If they are sophisticated and have time to take the whole
| car apart then you are SOL anyway as they will find any
| transmitters with an SDR.
| [deleted]
| abraae wrote:
| If you want to diy it, Check out ray Ozzie's recent project
| featured here on HN recently. Very reasonable priced with one
| up front payment for (10 ?) years of connectivity
| sipacate wrote:
| Here are some articles and projects where we show how to do
| Asset Tracking. One article is about an Iceland trip, the
| other is about building out a GPS tracker, complete with
| data dashboards.
|
| Iceland: https://blues.io/blog/vacation-gps-asset-tracker/
|
| Full Asset Tracking Project: https://www.hackster.io/paige-
| niedringhaus/low-code-gps-asse...
|
| Adapting this for a car would be straightforward.
| electrum wrote:
| $49 for the device and data: https://blues.io/
| mikeatlas wrote:
| https://blues.io/
| heleninboodler wrote:
| This feels like a dumb question, but I can't find
| dimensions of the Notecard anywhere and I can't quite
| judge the scale from the pictures. How big is it?
| c17r wrote:
| https://github.com/blues/note-
| hardware/blob/master/Notecard/... has the measurements,
| looks like 35mm x 30mm
| bigiain wrote:
| Keep in mind that's he card with a M.2 edge connector on
| one end. Mostly you'd be plugging that into something, at
| least to hook up the power/data lines. They sell "Note
| Carriers" for that, which end up making the combo bigger
| than that.
|
| Here's a pic of the note card plugged into their
| Raspberry Pi note carrier. That's a standard 40 pin 0.1"
| spacing connector on the left, so it's 2" plus the
| mounting holes in that dimension. 65x57mm and about 20mm
| tall for the stackable 40 pin socket+pins.
|
| https://flic.kr/p/2mkQAS7
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| What service are they using that gives 10 yrs of
| connectivity for a flat price?
| stingrae wrote:
| It's not 10 years of unlimited data. It's 500MB of data
| usable over 10 years.
| brk wrote:
| Probably "VC Cash".
|
| I've got a couple of the units and can say they are
| working well and very easy to interface with.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Read the reviews on the GPS tracking charger... either the
| people who bought it couldn't figure out how to use it, or its
| another scam product from china we see flooding amazon.
| lrvick wrote:
| When we audited it as best we could tell it was phoning home
| to some central Chinese server if you put a sim in it.
|
| So spy tools that spy on the spys.
|
| It is sketchy as all hell and should not be sold.
|
| That said this stuff pops up everywhere.
|
| I just cite it as examples.
| pa7ch wrote:
| Curious if chromeOS does anything special here to mitigate usb
| attacks.
| lrvick wrote:
| They do nothing.
| staticassertion wrote:
| You need to explicitly mount (in your ChromeOS settings) any
| USB devices to the Linux system. Other than that I'm not
| aware of any specific mitigations.
| grepfru_it wrote:
| So if I plug in a usb keyboard or mouse, they do not work
| until I activate them in settings? Sounds like an easy way
| for grandma to buy Dell over Google
| staticassertion wrote:
| In the _Linux environment_ specifically. The average user
| is not using the Linux environment, it has to be enabled
| in developer settings.
| hughrr wrote:
| When USB came out I was working in the defence sector. We
| closed the vector off with cages for the PCs with tied looms
| under desks, epoxy in all the holes we didn't want people to
| use and with threat of being in deep shit.
| lrvick wrote:
| When I was frequently using things like this on coworkers in
| red teaming (back when being in an office was a thing)
| putting my own desktop in a steel cage with a good lock
| proved effective against retaliation.
|
| Then we moved on to attacking the firmware in each others
| keyboards.
| ManBlanket wrote:
| Being in an office is definitely still a thing. Let's be
| real, vaccinated adults working from home is a privilege.
| Mostly a white upper middle class one. Always was.
| infogulch wrote:
| Since this has generated some discussion on locks and
| picking, there's been some interesting developments on
| "unpickable locks" that sidestep the tolerance problem by
| decoupling setting the pins from testing them. I.e. pins
| are tested all at once after they are physically decoupled
| from the key & keyway, eliminating state space reduction
| attacks (aka picking one pin at a time) leaving only brute
| force.
|
| One such effort features locks made by Stuff Made Here sent
| to Lock Picking Lawyer. According to LPL the locks are
| theoretically sound and he did not attempt to pick them,
| but these particular implementations had a couple (easily
| fixable) bypasses. Made for interesting videos on both
| sides:
|
| Stuff Made Here describes the design in detail: TWO
| Unpickable (?) Locks for Lock Picking Lawyer! -
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A2NY29iQdI
|
| Lock Picking Lawyer reviews them and performs some
| bypasses: [1299] Unpickable Locks From Stuff Made Here -
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecy1FBdCRbQ
| minism wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, fascinating stuff.
| infogulch wrote:
| Whelp it seems I recalled _incorrectly_ this time,
| because LPL _did_ pick the second one open, via a
| weakness in the design that he believes can be patched. I
| don 't think my _sentiment_ was totally off base, but
| clearly my statement about not being picked was factually
| incorrect.
| gruez wrote:
| >putting my own desktop in a steel cage with a good lock
| proved effective against retaliation.
|
| >Then we moved on to attacking the firmware in each others
| keyboards.
|
| In what world is hacking keyboard firmware easier than
| lockpicking?
| mhh__ wrote:
| If you don't know how to pick a lock it's a lot easier. I
| assume I could learn but I know a lot more about firmware
| than barrels.
| Forge36 wrote:
| Harder to spot visibly?
| michaelt wrote:
| I once saw a PC security case where instead of the lock
| cylinder retracting a bolt, it turned a screw thread and
| opened the case by about half a millimeter. It took the
| guy unlocking it a good fifty turns to get the PC out of
| it.
|
| And there were two - one on each side. What's more, it
| was a tubular lock, so if you were single-pin picking
| you'd have to pick it 5 times per rotation.
|
| Nothing that would stand up to a battery powered angle
| grinder, of course.
| lrvick wrote:
| I don't know anyone that would SPP a tubular lock in the
| field.
|
| $40 for tools designed to pick all pins at once and make
| a "key" with some quick impressioning motions.
|
| Some do have spool pins. In those cases you will need
| manual fiddling to pick it once then you have a key to
| keep spinning.
|
| Still, sounds like an interesting design. Link?
| michaelt wrote:
| I was under the impression impressioning relied on all
| the lock's springs and driver pins being identical, and
| that better tubular locks avoided that?
|
| I looked for a picture of the case but couldn't find one.
| I was in that college CAD lab... quite a long time ago.
| jayd16 wrote:
| It's a gentleman's sport.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| In the world where one is a firmware exploit developer
| and don't know how to pick locks...?
| lrvick wrote:
| We were all capable of both and had to plan accordingly.
| lrvick wrote:
| In a world where I am the one choosing the locks.
|
| I taught everyone else involved to lockpick in the first
| place and chose locks well beyond any of our skill levels
| to pick.
| dharmab wrote:
| In a world where keyboards are open source programmable
| devices: https://qmk.fm/
| mijoharas wrote:
| software problem, not a hardware problem. :)
| jimmySixDOF wrote:
| and what's this site we are on's name again ?
| hughrr wrote:
| We just broke the locks on the cages with a screwdriver.
| Locks only keep honest people honest.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| Most common locks can be easily picked with a tiny bit of
| practice. I'm completely incompetent but I can pick any
| Master lock in 5 minutes or less.
| lrvick wrote:
| Which is why you should never use Master Locks.
|
| I am pretty decent at lockpicking but I can't pick a
| Medeco or better in any practical amount of time and very
| few in the world can.
|
| Little bit more money vastly reduces your attack surface.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| > Little bit more money
|
| Aren't medeco padlocks like $100, whereas master lock
| padlocks are less than $20?
| [deleted]
| vdqtp3 wrote:
| What's the value of the asset it's protecting?
| dekhn wrote:
| I remember learning how to break master locks back in the
| 1980s. But I also heard they changed the mechanism after
| that.
| danachow wrote:
| I'm pretty sure they did on a number of models, but it
| wasn't for the better
| lrvick wrote:
| I went to home depot a couple years ago and bought every
| model of master lock they sold. Picked all of them in an
| afternoon.
|
| I then taught kids to pick them.
| dekhn wrote:
| do you mean combo locks, or key locks?
| ris wrote:
| That would generally be considered "detectable intrusion"
| though.
| liketochill wrote:
| Not if you replace it with another lock that looks
| similar
| richardw wrote:
| I think when you get home and your key doesn't work on
| the lock, it might tip you off.
| liketochill wrote:
| When I had towers or pizza boxes I pretty much never
| touched them once it became normal to leave them on all
| the time, which was as soon as they were always
| downloading from the internet at 3.3 kbps.
|
| If the case was locked in a cage I wouldn't notice until
| I needed to put access the tower to plug in a usb, which
| might not be for weeks these days.
| lrvick wrote:
| I don't expect good locks to keep people out. I expect
| good locks to be tamper evident so I know I can't trust
| my system.
| btbuildem wrote:
| Imagine someone broke the lock, but did nothing more.
|
| You'd be driven mad trying to find what the intrusion was
| on your system.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| Unfortunately, there aren't really all that many "good
| locks" on the market. The Lock Picking Lawyer on
| YouTube[1] has pretty much destroyed my faith in the
| modern lockmaking industry.
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer/videos
| lrvick wrote:
| I have hundreds of locks and lock bypass tools. I make
| sure to pay for ones that are not quickly defeated when
| it counts.
|
| LPL covers most locks in the wild which are bad, but
| locks like the Protec2 are quite strong and while it is
| implied one person in the world can beat it with custom
| tools (huxleypig)... even then not quickly.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| And the best features are (proudly) locked behind
| patents, so if you need a great lock in a form factor
| they don't make, oh well.
| lrvick wrote:
| Some of the best locks are very very hard to buy as well
| and still protected with weird export controls held over
| from the encryption export days.
|
| I frequently use FF-L-2740 spec locks, which is the spec
| locks need to hit for use in classified government work,
| military contractors etc. They are very good locks I
| can't begin to defeat in any practical amount of time and
| don't know anyone who can. Particularly since they have
| timed brute force lockouts.
|
| Problem is not a single vendor is allowed to sell locks
| of that spec to civilians by contract so you have to jump
| through lots of hoops to get them.
| traceroute66 wrote:
| > there aren't really all that many "good locks" on the
| market.
|
| You can say that again.
|
| I was once proud of myself for having thoroughly
| researched the market and I thought EVVA MCS was a safe
| bet[1].
|
| Then someone showed me a YouTube video (published a year
| after I bought the locks) of someone picking it (not LPL,
| another YouTuber). Given the cost of EVVA MCS I was not a
| happy bunny.
|
| [1] https://www.evva.com/int-en/products/mechanical-
| locking-syst...
| repiret wrote:
| He can defeat just about anything, but he's also
| exceptionally skilled. As a consumer of locks, I expect
| them to be defeatable by a skilled lockpicker. But I
| don't expect them to be defeatable by a bic pen or by
| reaching in the keyhole with an oddly shaped wire to move
| the locking paul.
|
| You can buy locks that don't have easy bypasses, and
| can't be easily drilled, and can't be picked by
| beginners.
| lrvick wrote:
| You can also buy locks that can't be picked by people
| like me who have been at it 20 years.
|
| To keep people like me out for a while buy a Medeco. Pins
| not only need to be at the right height, but also the
| right rotation. They are a real pain in the ass to pick.
| I don't even know any locksmiths that can pick them. Good
| security for the money.
|
| Bosnian Bill and LPL... Okay they can pick them, but they
| are like the 0.0001% in skill.
|
| Still even then pay an extra $100 for really high quality
| disk detainer lock like a Protec 2 and you will keep even
| them out for quite a while.
|
| That is what I use on my luggage. TSA has to call me to
| unlock them with my consent every time. The way I like
| it. Great tip I picked up from Deviant Ollam.
| d1lanka wrote:
| Out of the brands you've mentioned, any particular models
| of locks?
| mmastrac wrote:
| I'm surprised TSA doesn't just cut it off, TBH.
| ukd1 wrote:
| Also this; especially after watching this happen to
| DeviantOllam
| djrogers wrote:
| > TSA has to call me to unlock them with my consent every
| time.
|
| No - no they don't.
|
| Anything locked with a non-TSA compliant lock is fair
| game for the bolt cutters, and frankly probably draws a
| lot of extra attention.
|
| All you're doing is asking for extra screening...
|
| [1] https://www.tsa.gov/blog/2014/02/18/tsa-travel-tips-
| tuesday-...
| throaway46546 wrote:
| Not if you have a firearm in your luggage.
| chipsa wrote:
| The part you're missing is : firearm means they shouldn't
| (legally can't) try to open the case without you.
| d1lanka wrote:
| Which locks don't have easy bypasses?
|
| I've been wondering the most
| sophisticated/effective/secure locks regular consumers
| have access to.
|
| In other words, which locks does the Lock Picking Lawyer
| himself use in his house to protect his family?
| repiret wrote:
| He has specifically mentioned BiLock as one he would
| consider. As another comment in this thread mentioned,
| Mendeco is also well regarded.
| hirundo wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV8QKZNFxLw
| akavel wrote:
| Apparently, picked here: https://youtu.be/ai5Hf-wPXFE
|
| but check out this one instead:
| https://youtu.be/sES_Hbj92BQ - ~2h to open fully (though
| the author of the video claims impressioning could speed
| up the thing; anyway, reportedly attacking the door is
| just easier in this case)
| lrvick wrote:
| I have Bowley locks in my collection. Amazing quality.
|
| Not only does it take a couple hours to pick for an
| expert but you have to make a custom set of tools that
| only work on that one particular lock.
|
| If a lock keeps someone out for several hours it is a
| great lock.
| Norlin wrote:
| Guy who made the video here. The lock mechanism itself
| isn't one of the easiest, but also not one of the hardest
| to pick skill-wise. However, it does take a very long
| time to pick through which means that the lock is doing
| its job very well. Also, I have read that this lock is
| very resistant to destructive attack as well. So
| combining pick resistance with physical resistance, you
| have a very good lock as long as it's installed on a good
| door and the building has all other security measures in
| place (no ground level unprotected windows, etc)
|
| Also worth noting, Bosnian Bill (a more recognized name)
| also attempted this lock here
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLeiPmfm-2s
| godelski wrote:
| Just because a highly skilled professional lock picker
| can pick a lock doesn't mean you can nor the parent's
| coworkers.
| worik wrote:
| For most uses of a lock its job is to keep honest people
| out.
|
| I have had doors kicked in, so these days I want the lock
| to be the weakest, not strongest, part of the door. So
| when it is kicked in it is a cheap lock that is destroyed
| not an expensive hardwood door (I like hardwood doors...)
| lrvick wrote:
| Most locks can be picked by a child with a hair pin. I
| would know. I grew up as that child opening every door
| and safe I could to amuse myself.
|
| If a door is broken then a lock did its job. It let you
| know you were broken into.
| worik wrote:
| Cheaper if the lock is broken. Locks (that are broken
| easily) are cheaper than doors, which are not hard to
| break and expensive to fix
|
| Who is going to pick a lock that is cheap and easy to
| break?
| caf wrote:
| Even cheaper just to leave the door unlocked, I suppose.
| IncRnd wrote:
| > Who is going to pick a lock that is cheap and easy to
| break?
|
| Probably a criminal who is trying to be quiet, so they
| can enter your house.
| JTbane wrote:
| Watching his channel, a beefy disc tumbler locks seem to
| be your best bet for keeping a bike secure.
|
| For your home, a high security pin tumbler with security
| pins are fine too. It takes very high skill to defeat
| these.
| nrr wrote:
| The lock doesn't even need to be that good. As you said,
| the name of the game is intrusion detection, not
| necessarily intrusion avoidance.
|
| The Lock Picking Lawyer chronicled very nicely a
| technique for turning a KW1-keyed Kwikset core (extremely
| common here in the US) into something that is tamper
| evident. See the YouTube video linked herein.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JlgKCUqzA0
|
| This kind of thing thwarts covert attack attempts and
| serves as a good way to trigger an audit on the trust of
| the asset behind that lock.
| Chirael wrote:
| I'm into locksport as well and would favor that kind of
| modification on a back door which is more likely to be
| targeted by thieves. Not sure I'd do it on a front door
| in case I put a family member actually locked themselves
| out and actually needed a locksmith to be able to get in.
| nrr wrote:
| Sure, and the application of access control devices
| generally requires a degree of discretion and
| understanding what your threat model is.
|
| If you don't fear your front door will be clandestinely
| accessed, I feel it's perfectly valid not to worry about
| doing this to the lock there.
|
| Not being you, that isn't my call to make.
| Chirael wrote:
| Yeah, my threat model is common house thieves, not
| intelligence agencies or police.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > I don't expect good locks to keep people out. I expect
| good locks to be tamper evident so I know I can't trust
| my system.
|
| The term for what you want is a "seal", not a lock.
| hinkley wrote:
| My school had a way to keep peripherals from wandering off,
| but if all you need to do is swap the cables then I'm not
| sure that would still work. Wrapping the cables into a wiring
| loom makes that process slower, assuming the loom is
| complicated enough. Did you ever use heat shrink? Or locking
| cable ties?
|
| What the school did was run a steel cable behind the desks,
| then put a loop of the mouse chord through a steel washer and
| ran the security cable through all the loops. If you secure
| both ends you can't get the cables separated even with slack.
|
| The trick is that the hole in the washer had to be smaller
| than the connector so you couldn't fish it back through no
| matter how much slack you get. That could still work for
| USB-A, but these days the connectors are getting smaller than
| the diameter of curvature of the cable, so you'd break it
| trying to do this. And on many peripherals you could destroy
| the chord without reducing the value of the device. One could
| cut the cable and install this Trojan one on many devices
| these days, the only telltale would be that the cable isn't
| routed properly, which might be harder to notice immediately.
| lrvick wrote:
| On most keyboards and mice the cables are not soldered on
| the inside but just a quick connector.
|
| You can get a female/male versions of this connector placed
| on either side of an attiny85 for a quick solderless
| implant no one will ever see.
|
| Then just undo 2 screws, plug your implant inside the
| mouse/keyboard, screw it back.
|
| To make this harder intentionally strip the screws with a
| drill, understanding you will never be able to repair that
| unit again.
| a1369209993 wrote:
| > To make this harder
|
| Or, y'know, open it up and solder the connecter together
| (or remove the connector and solder the cable wires
| directly).
| hinkley wrote:
| My anecdote was a bit old and I'm certain some of those
| devices had soldered cables, meaning that a sheared wire
| couldn't be handled by buying a new chord or combining
| parts of two mice. Because I specifically looked for that
| a few times with no luck.
|
| But they're right, these days when you crack open things
| you often find a connector soldered to the motherboard
| and the cable is merely plugged in. I think it's just
| easier to manufacture. Pick and place, bulk solder and
| then a machine to plug in the cable, fast as you like,
| maybe with a loop in it as a poor man's strain protector.
| a1369209993 wrote:
| > meaning that a sheared wire couldn't be handled by
| [...] combining parts of two mice.
|
| Well, if you're _stealing_ them, you only need parts from
| one mouse: cut the cable close to the mouse, untangle it
| from whatever crap it 's locked to, take mouse and cable
| home with you, disassemble mouse, feed cable back though
| (I think it's called) grommet, strip cable, pick out
| wires, solder wires to approriate mouse internals,
| reassemble mouse, done. You have a working mouse with
| only slightly shorter cable than before.
|
| The point of using soldered cables for security is that
| setting up a soldering iron near a computer is
| conspicuous, so you get caught if try to install a
| attiny85 inside the mouse that way. You can still _steal_
| stuff just fine.
| victorhooi wrote:
| When you say strip the screw - do you mean strip the
| screw head, by drilling out the head?
|
| That's evil...
|
| (Or do you know some way to strip the thread itself).
| lrvick wrote:
| Yeah just intentionally drill the head so those screws
| are not coming out again without power tools which should
| be obvious in the open where they are deployed.
|
| Or just epoxy the whole thing together.
| mhb wrote:
| Epoxying the screws in might be easier?
| IIsi50MHz wrote:
| Seems there are special drill bits for removing stripped
| screws...
| ioseph wrote:
| Few strokes of a hacksaw and a rubber band (for grip). Or
| just some pliers
| lrvick wrote:
| If you can get away with using a drill on a keyboard and
| mouse covertly, I want to watch.
| mhb wrote:
| Good luck with those and that size screw.
| hughrr wrote:
| All the cables were terminated inside the box and strapped
| every 1 inch with cable ties. Nothing was exposed that
| could be disconnected other than the monitor IEC lead.
| max-ibel wrote:
| That's hard if your laptop relies on USB-C for charging...
| lrvick wrote:
| I specifically don't recommend laptops that rely on USB C
| charging for applications where trust is critical -unless-
| they are running Linux with USBGuard or QubesOS.
|
| That said I did make transparent and easily auditable USB
| type C condoms for one client that really wanted to use USB
| type C laptops.
|
| Systems with security as a strong priority like the Librem
| 14 use barrel jacks for good reason.
|
| I am in fact implying those that allow use of macbooks at
| coffee shops to directly access production systems at FAANG
| and fintech companies are taking a very inappropriate risk
| :-P
| pgeorgi wrote:
| USB C charging happens well below the OS layer, using
| firmware that often isn't all that good. USBGuard or
| QubesOS won't help there (but will somewhat mitigate
| attacks trying to move up the stack)
| lrvick wrote:
| The problem is not the charging. The problem is that a
| fake charger cable can run an HID attack over the +/-
| pins before it does a pass through to the power
| negotiation MCU for charging.
|
| A tampered USB C to C cable on a conference room table
| can compromise people all day long.
|
| If the USB C charge ports cut the data pins entirely then
| great, but I have not seen that be the case on any
| laptops yet.
| dolmen wrote:
| Because few want USB-C ports dedicated to charging. The
| point of USB-C if flexibility. "One port to rule them
| all".
| traceroute66 wrote:
| > Windows and Mac users are currently easy targets.
|
| Not true, at least for iPhone / iPad users: -
| 1. Download Apple Configurator (free to anyone) - 2.
| Create new config profile - 3. Setup your device in
| "supervised" mode and apply said profile (the reason for this
| step is that the "best" config profile options are only
| available in supervised mode).
|
| Config profile items of interest include, but may not be
| limited to: - "Allow USB accessories while
| device is locked" - "Allow pairing with non-configurator
| hosts" - "Allow putting into recovery mode from an
| unpaired device"
| lrvick wrote:
| If the USB device is not permitted to enumerate when the
| device is locked, then the payload just fires when
| enumeration happens after unlock.
|
| You either ban USB devices entirely or you make users approve
| on every connection with no white listing.
| Hacktek wrote:
| $600, 3 meter range. wtf? How is OMG Cable able to be so much
| cheaper and get so much more range?
| e40 wrote:
| _Windows and Mac users are currently easy targets. I don 't
| know of any good defenses there._
|
| It's crazy to me that this is true. Does the government pay
| Microsoft and Apple to keep it this way, or are they just
| negligent?
| fortran77 wrote:
| Apple claims they're "secure by design" when clearly they're
| not.[1] I don't think they're explicitly cooperating with any
| Government, I just think they have enough disgruntled
| employees who cooperate with the Government and companies
| that sell penetration software to put in back doors and
| enable exploits.
|
| There's much less discontent among the rank-and-file at
| Microsoft, so this sort of thing happens less with them.
|
| [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/site/AAW_Platform_Sec
| uri...
| Closi wrote:
| It's not really practical to defend against for most end
| users.
|
| Keeping a whitelist of known keyboards and mice is really the
| only defence even on Linux, and unless you work in a data
| centre that's probably way overkill.
|
| With a home PC that doesn't really work though, because in
| order to authenticate your mouse without some kind of central
| mouse log on a server you probably need to click a button,
| which you can't do without authenticating your mouse.
| lrvick wrote:
| Whitelists don't work.
|
| As an attacker I just have the bootloaders of my malicious
| devices advertize the USB IDs of whitelisted devices like
| Apple Keyboards.
|
| The computer has no way of knowing it is not authentic.
| There is no signing or certification for USB devices.
|
| The only solution is a kernel that can place all newly
| attached USB devices in a queue for manual approval.
|
| This is what USBGuard and QubesOS both do. The Linux kernel
| and udev have native support to hook USB devices early
| making this easy.
|
| It means no one can drive by plug something in when your
| computer is locked. You will get a popup asking if you want
| to give some device other than the keyboard you booted with
| access to behave as a keyboard .
|
| Also the majority of attacks I have seen in the wild
| attacking production systems were via endpoint compromises.
|
| If your laptop has remote access to said high value
| datacenter, then your laptop is a high value target.
|
| Note though that laptops have a nice advantage for this
| threat model as most have built in PS/2 trackpad and mouse
| which can let you approve external keyboards/mice etc.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| Can still pop OS with just enumeration and descriptors.
| whyoh wrote:
| >The only solution is a kernel that can place all newly
| attached USB devices in a queue for manual approval.
|
| Would it recognize the newly attached one, if you do the
| swap while the computer is turned off and they have the
| same HW ID?
|
| Because if not, then it's not much better than what
| Windows lets you do with group policies. Although on
| Windows you could do this swap even while the OS is
| running.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _It means no one can drive by plug something in when
| your computer is locked. You will get a popup asking if
| you want to give some device other than the keyboard you
| booted with access to behave as a keyboard ._
|
| Makes me think, what would happen if I plugged this
| cable, unplugged the keyboard, and power-cycled the
| computer? Or do a hard power down, then the switcheroo,
| and then power up? Would USBGuard/QubesOS block the new
| device, even though it's the one it just booted with?
|
| (I think finding your computer rebooted would fly under
| the radar of most of the users - they'd blame it on
| automatic updates or intermittent power failure.)
|
| On that note, I wonder how small you could go with a MITM
| device to attach between victim's peripheral and their
| computer. Could you pack enough useful features in a
| dongle that would not be immediately noticeable by most
| users?
| lrvick wrote:
| If you rebooted my computer you would be greeted with a
| full disk decryption prompt which requires a smartcard
| and a pin to unlock.
|
| It won't go unnoticed.
|
| If your computer can reboot itself for updates that
| should be a cause for concern as it means your FDE is
| being cached somewhere that can use it unattended. I
| don't allow such things personally.
|
| You do have to check for any untrusted USB devices at
| boot on a desktop. No getting around that one as you need
| to be able to use input devices at boot. Best bet is a
| PS/2 keyboard but those are getting harder to find.
|
| For a laptop you have a better story as you can trust the
| internal PS/2 keyboard/mouse then use that to approve USB
| things fresh as needed and dictate what applications they
| get access to.
|
| I connect my USB webcam to the one VM that needs it on
| demand, for instance.
| namibj wrote:
| Assuming you're using LUKS with device mapper, this
| reboot did be able to be a plain kexec, and the raw disk
| key can be placed in a pre-defined location in RAM, like
| how the dmesg buffer is something set up to be
| persistent, for recovering information from right before
| a crash, even if only via an automated log push daemon.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _It won 't go unnoticed._
|
| Of course the reboot itself will be noticed when the user
| gets back - whether it's the login prompt, or boot
| prompt, or just all applications being closed. I meant it
| might not be noticed _as something unusual_ , warranting
| further investigation. Typical user, even tech-savvy one,
| will just think, "must have been a power glitch", or
| "damn, those updates forced a reboot again".
|
| The latter is something Windows users are conditioned
| for. Coming back from the toilet to be faced by a fresh
| login prompt is common enough even in the age of Windows
| 10 - and especially when the laptop is controlled by your
| employer, as IT tends to force a stricter schedule on
| updates[0]. In my case, this happens 1-2 times a week.
| While I'm working from home this doesn't matter, but if I
| were back in the office and came back from lunch to a
| rebooted computer, I would've assumed it was updates
| again.
|
| > _You do have to check for any untrusted USB devices at
| boot on a desktop. No getting around that one as you need
| to be able to use input devices at boot._
|
| Makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I was assuming at
| least some of these solutions are trying to eliminate
| this requirement, but ultimately it may not be possible.
|
| (Or perhaps it would be, if USB had something like HDCP
| so that you couldn't construct a dongle that could be
| transparently inserted between the computer and the
| peripheral.)
|
| > _For a laptop you have a better story_
|
| Right. Also, in case of attacker forcing reboot, they
| can't rely on users assuming it was a power glitch
| because laptops have batteries.
|
| > _I connect my USB webcam to the one VM that needs it on
| demand, for instance._
|
| I need to read more about such setups, where you
| compartmentalize your system with VMs. Is there any good
| primer you could recommend?
|
| --
|
| [0] - I'm increasingly convinced Windows 10 update system
| is evil, and does this on purpose. It just _so happens_
| that it always forces an update and reboot on my work
| machine whenever I step away from it for more than 10
| minutes. It 's like it was monitoring idle time, and
| thinking "ooh, the user is away, let's reboot the machine
| and lose all the state". I also recently had to switch
| Lenovo updater malware to manual, because it kept
| choosing the exact middle of our weekly team meeting as
| the time to forcibly update video drivers, blanking my
| screen for anywhere between 2 and 20 minutes.
|
| (Did I mention I _hate_ automatic updates?)
| max-ibel wrote:
| There are dongles that only let power through:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/PortaPow-3rd-Data-Blocker-
| Pack/dp/B00...
|
| But it's a pain in the neck to always use them and
| difficult to enforce use in an enterprise setting.
| lrvick wrote:
| And there are people who have disguised badusb attacks as
| those dongles. Works every time.
|
| I co-designed some transparent USB C ones for a client
| that are easy to audit.
|
| Hope to take them to market some day.
| flixic wrote:
| Took me a moment to realise, but this is for keyboards, not
| iPhones. I don't think (?) anybody can access anything from an
| iPhone using an evil cable (using publicly-known attacks).
| ttul wrote:
| I'm kind of surprised that Apple doesn't encrypt keystrokes
| between its keyboards and the host machine, given than they
| have the capability to enable the keyboard to authenticate the
| host using PKI.
|
| Maybe this is on their todo list.
| girishso wrote:
| So we can't use third party keyboards with Apple devices? No
| thanks.
| mikestew wrote:
| That's...not what parent typed. Use whatever keyboard you
| like, but you'll only get E2EE with an Apple keyboard.
| VenTatsu wrote:
| The cable claims that it's a random 3rd party keyboard
| when it talks to the Mac, the cable claims it's a random
| non Apple device when it talks to the keyboard, the
| keyboard falls back to non-encrypted mode as it's not on
| a product that supports it.
|
| Man in the middle is hard to prevent when you need to be
| compatible with incredibly broken insecure legacy
| protocols.
|
| Apple could maybe go the route that all new Apple
| keyboards only work with new Macs and iOS devices, but
| that would mean that they can't work with any existing
| Apple hardware or third party systems.
| ttul wrote:
| And does Apple care? Unlikely... Preventing MITM cable
| hacks is not a common use case.
| amatecha wrote:
| I guess the MITM attack could be mitigated in the OS by
| showing an "encrypted keyboard connection" UI indicator
| of sorts. Assuming the MITM hardware doesn't exploit a
| vulnerability in the OS to incorrectly show that
| indicator. ;)
| duskwuff wrote:
| You kind of get that with Bluetooth keyboards.
| VenTatsu wrote:
| These are more general purpose than just those attacks, the
| author of the firmware has demo videos of cables attached to
| Android and iOS devices that when the payload runs they open
| the system browser and loads a specific page. Depending on what
| you can do with a web page at any given time on those devices
| it could be a springboard.
|
| You could also do some passive/active data gathering. On
| Windows when you plug in an iOS device, if the device trusts
| the computer it will allow it to access all the photos and
| videos on the device. The cable it self could then start
| grabbing those images and sending them over the WiFi link. I
| don't know if these cables support that, but the concept is
| valid.
| fragmede wrote:
| The boot rom of iPhone 8 and older have a publicly known
| exploit. If you plugged your phone in to charge, and then it
| spontaneously rebooted, how much forensic digging could you
| actually do?
|
| How much are you willing to bet that there's _not_ a private
| exploit against newer iPhones? Not in terms of dollars, but in
| terms of private data that Apple 's iPhone that you're renting
| from them has access to.
| lisper wrote:
| I'm not sure what is scarier, the existence of this cable, or the
| amount of Javascript that this site tries to run when you visit
| it. According to my NoScript plugin, it's loading Javascript from
| at least 17 different domains.
| kag0 wrote:
| Totally unrelated to this cable, but since you mention it...
|
| I've been trying to build web/single page applications using
| new ES modules and no build tool, so all dependencies are
| pulled from their creator/CDN rather than bundled locally.
| Would this set off flags for a no-script user?
| lisper wrote:
| The more domains you load JS from, the more entities have
| control over what happens on that page, and the higher the
| risk that one of those entities is trying to do something
| nefarious. So yes, loading all the scripts from one place
| will set off fewer alarm bells, at least for me.
| judge2020 wrote:
| If they use pure noscript with scripts disabled globally,
| then yes, it'll just be unable to load the one first-party
| script.
| icedistilled wrote:
| After looking at that product page and seeing how something that
| looks innocuous can be so insidious, does anyone else wonder just
| a bit whether the page is not so innocent and visiting it may
| have been a mistake.
| prox wrote:
| That would be shooting yourself in the foot really. Hackers
| hacking hackers?
| coding123 wrote:
| Yes I had that thought too. However I was glad to learn of it's
| existence so at least I know what is scarily possible.
| blondin wrote:
| yep.
|
| chrome is now showing me a new "you added this to your cart"
| feature on my new tab page. it says i have added that product
| to my "cart".
|
| that page is obviously doing something but i can't say anything
| evil.
| 8fingerlouie wrote:
| Hak5 is legitimate. They sell all kinds of pentesting
| equipment, and most of it is good. It's mostly just small ARM
| linux "boxes" with some Bash scripts on top, though things like
| the WiFi Pineapple will (attempt) to break wifi passwords for
| you (https://shop.hak5.org/collections/sale/products/wifi-
| pineapp...)
|
| For lack of a better use (just a hobby for me), i use a Screen
| Crap (https://shop.hak5.org/collections/sale/products/screen-
| crab) along with a Key Croc
| (https://shop.hak5.org/collections/sale/products/key-croc) for
| a poor mans KVM to my headless server :)
|
| I don't know about the omg.lol page :)
| shapefrog wrote:
| You should use a data blocker when using an unknown USB cable to
| charge your phone. Occasionally described as a USB condom.
|
| Simply a Male to Female USB adaptor with the data wires not
| passed through.
| shadilay wrote:
| Is that USB-PD compatible?
| mschuster91 wrote:
| The "USB condoms" I know are USB2/3 only which means there
| isn't any form of PD negotiation anyway, and the oldschool
| Qualcomm Quickcharge and Apple's negotiation won't work
| either as these depend on D+/D-.
|
| A decent USB-C condom would _also_ have to cut not just the
| USB2 D+ /D- line, but also the USB3 SS and SBU lines... the
| really interesting thing is the CC wires, since without these
| you can't have reversible connectors, but not cutting them
| leaves an avenue for attackers (e.g. putting an USB-C port
| into JTAG mode). And _on top_ of that USB-C PD 1 used the
| Vbus line with an overlaid HF signal.
|
| That means a decent USB-C condom will need:
|
| - a low-pass on the Vbus line to block PD1
|
| - cut D+/D-, SS, SBU
|
| - cut CC1/CC2 and insert an as-dumb-as-possible controller
| chip to handle plug orientation
| PeterisP wrote:
| What I hear from you is that a decent USB-C-condom needs to
| be a smart "MITM" device that has sufficient internal logic
| to proxy the power negotiation between devices at both
| ends.
| megous wrote:
| You don't need orientation handling if you've cut all the
| other signals, so...
|
| Power negotiation is also not a big problem. Just use a
| correct resistor on the CC pin and you can make the phone
| use up to 5V/3A, which is plenty for any smartphone. You'd
| have to make sure to use a 5V/15W capable power source,
| though.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > You'd have to make sure to use a 5V/15W capable power
| source, though.
|
| ... which precisely is something I cannot make sure on a
| device where I'm tempted to use a USB condom, and it
| won't be useful at all for laptops.
| shapefrog wrote:
| I actually learnt a lot from these comments, so my thanks
| - USB-C is still just a mirrage on the horizion for me,
| so not something I have considered deeply.
| megous wrote:
| So use Sink.Default instead, and live with 5W, that all
| USB power sources support.
|
| Security is inconvenient.
| gumby wrote:
| I have not seen one that is. You can block data access and
| revert to USB 2-level power "negotiation" with a couple of
| passives and that is all I've seen anyone do.
|
| I did look into designing one a few years ago. The PD
| negotiation is quite complicated (and is done through the
| signaling lines, so you have to manipulate them yet block all
| other uses).
|
| That was early days for USB C -- there may be better chip
| support for doing that today.
| [deleted]
| sudobash1 wrote:
| This is one reason I prefer good old 3.5mm audio jacks in my
| phone. I have no fear of putting any headphones or adapter in
| that port.
| rmdashrfstar wrote:
| Ignorance is bliss
| knodi123 wrote:
| That's the port that Square uses for transmitting data. ;-)
|
| https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2181476/bandwidth-from-h...
| clb92 wrote:
| Wait until you learn that some phones have serial access
| through the headphone jack.[1][2] I don't know much about it
| yet, but I assume it can be exploited in some way, under some
| circumstances.
|
| [1] _DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE AND BACK OUT AGAIN: SERIAL OVER
| HEADPHONE JACK_ https://hackaday.com/2016/10/21/down-the-
| rabbit-hole-and-bac...
|
| [2] _A better audio jack console cable for Google Nexus
| devices_ http://www.pabr.org/consolejack/consolejack.en.html
| EastSmith wrote:
| Not sure why the data industrial complex is net yet giving cables
| for free around malls, schools, etc.
| ElectricMind wrote:
| War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength -- George
| Orwell, 1984.
| dehrmann wrote:
| I feel like there are some clever uses for this that aren't even
| security related.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| That is just evil.
| rkagerer wrote:
| This makes me miss older, simpler protocols. Sure, a parallel
| cable could also be compromised to snoop but at least it couldn't
| pretend to be some other device or install rootkits.
| kortex wrote:
| Challenge accepted. Any time you have physical access
| (especially HID), you have the potential for exploits.
|
| I couldn't find much for parallel port hax (in 5 min googling),
| but I'm sure it's been done. Probably too old to be documented
| on the shallow web.
|
| https://www.quora.com/Can-a-computer-be-hacked-through-a-PS-...
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| That's because it isn't a cable, it is a computer.
|
| In the 1980's I worked with CAD/CAM software that required
| hardware dongles on parallel ports as an anti-piracy measure.
| That probably could have been exploitable: e.g., instead of
| returning the security response, cram a ton of data and cause
| buffer overrun on their 80286 + DOS5 application and smash the
| stack. It would be fun to go back in time and see just how
| vulnerable that software was.
| folmar wrote:
| Sure it can. In the golden days of parport we've used parallel
| port device autodetection based on Device ID. There was a lot
| of place in the plug to use for a microcontroller in the end of
| the parport times.
| [deleted]
| soheil wrote:
| > "self destruct" features that involve wiping the onboard flash
| memory
|
| Had an entirely different image in mind.
| nicewarmvalley wrote:
| But will it charge my phone?
| throwawayswede wrote:
| I wonder what happens if you fly with one of these.
| StrLght wrote:
| Most likely nothing in most countries. At least that's what my
| experience was with something way more suspicious - pouch with
| a lead layer, I use it for transporting film so it won't get
| damaged by xrays. Around 60% of the times no-one even says
| anything about it despite the bag looking like a huge square on
| their screens.
|
| I don't think transport security people would care about any
| small tech stuff until something happens inflight because of
| it.
| OJFord wrote:
| I would expect nothing, because the security we put ourselves
| through is nowhere close to sophisticated enough to notice.
| throwawayswede wrote:
| I'm pretty sure this would look kind of weird under xrays.
| They probably see thousands of cables and it'd be pretty easy
| to spot the difference.
| Arrath wrote:
| They see thousands of cables and probably don't give any a
| second glance for the bare few seconds they gaze at each
| bag, an extra IC or two in the connector or not.
|
| The sheer volume of bags that get run through those x-ray
| machines in a shift, and the time given to look at each one
| precludes too much fine grained inspection, especially for
| something as minor as cables.
|
| Airport security is pretty dismal at detecting actual
| weapons or contraband, why should they be any better at
| noticing a slightly different cable?
| OJFord wrote:
| Yes, perhaps. And so the day (after) someone brings down a
| plane with a non-standard cable, they'll start looking for
| cables that 'look kind of weird'.
| evilduck wrote:
| The TSA agent making $25/hr who was formerly a line chef or
| retail worker or correctional officer or whatever is not
| sophisticated enough to tell the difference. Suspicious
| computer cables don't cause planes to fall out of the sky,
| and that's about all that agency even pretends to care
| about.
| VenTatsu wrote:
| Standard Apple cables already have a chip inside, and USB
| 3.1 cables are also supposed to have chips inside.
|
| I would also assume they are not paying enough attention to
| even notice, there is no regulation against them so there
| is no reason to even train to notice differences in USB
| cables.
|
| > They probably see thousands of cables and it'd be pretty
| easy to spot the difference.
|
| If anything seeing thousands of cables will make them less
| likely to notice anything, change blindness is a real
| problem in jobs like that.
| soheil wrote:
| One thing cables are good at is being long enough to act as great
| antenna. It makes sense the wifi range is 2KM.
| andix wrote:
| Does it work like a normal USB Cable, so can you still charge
| your phone with it and connect it to the PC?
|
| Couldn't find this information. If yes, you can just switch
| someones cable in his bag and attack him with that. We need to be
| very careful in the future with our cables...
| soheil wrote:
| Other than state against state actors what are legitimate use
| cases for this type of spying?
| notorandit wrote:
| Oh My God!
| adolph wrote:
| Reminds me of the 2013 blog post of Panic in which they discover
| the lightening to hdmi "adapter" was in fact a small computer
| performing transcoding to HDMI. It was much larger and bulkier
| than 0.mg, but another example of a hidden computer in a place
| where one might expect just some simple wires.
|
| https://panic.com/blog/the-lightning-digital-av-adapter-surp...
| strife25 wrote:
| hak5!!!
|
| Such a classic tech podcast. So cool to see them still around.
| reilly3000 wrote:
| It was my firm belief that many of the angry mobs at vote
| counting offices around the 2020 elections were cover for
| planting these types of devices. That is very much out of the
| Roger Stone playbook. The lack of anomalies has shaken that
| belief... but I do hope that the existence of these types of
| devices is included in security training for future polling
| staff.
| mhh__ wrote:
| The only true defense is a paper and pencil (why pencil:
| Disappearing ink).
| upearly4 wrote:
| I vote (so to speak) for paper ballots and voter ID.
|
| Of course in that case, Roger Stone's guy would have won
| handily.
| vajrabum wrote:
| Be nice if convicted felon Roger Stone or his guy had ever
| presented evidence of that in a court room. In federal court
| it's sanctionable for a lawyer to lie to the court. Did you
| notice that Sidney Powell, the former guy's attorney, was
| sanctioned and referred to the bar for disciplinary action
| for providing fraudulent information in court in connection
| with a 2021 presidential election related lawsuit? Not a good
| look for someone who claims to have been cheated.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Hak5 makes some great stuff, but yeah: how hard would it be to
| swap the vote counters USB sticks with Hak5 BashBunnies loaded
| with exfiltration software if their protocols suck to begin
| with? I really hope there are root of trust procedures.
| soheil wrote:
| I'd be more than a little nervous ordering one of these cables
| from a company that its sole job is creating spyware. If they're
| okay with spying on their customers' customers why wouldn't they
| spy on just their customers too?
| mmastrac wrote:
| Can you write custom code for this thing? I actually have some
| non-nefarious use cases...
| fredley wrote:
| They sell a programmer for it, so probably!
| mmastrac wrote:
| Interesting. I'm not sure if that is for pre-programmed
| payloads or not
| fredley wrote:
| As was posted in a separate thread, you might look at
| http://tomu.im/ too
| mmastrac wrote:
| Those are pretty cool. One of the big use-cases for me is
| small-form-factor USB-passthru sniffing, however. I don't
| think any of the Tomu devices have that but would
| definitely be an option if so.
| VenTatsu wrote:
| The product pages mention custom payloads, in some of the
| images it looks like some variant of the DuckyScript used in
| some of the other hak5 products. It likely depends on if what
| you want to do is supported or if it would need changes to the
| firmware to accomplish.
| umvi wrote:
| I don't get what these can be used for. Is the idea to swap it
| out with your victim's iPhone charging cable and use it to
| exfiltrate photos and stuff from the iPhone?
| post_break wrote:
| Been a follower of Hak5 since way back in the day. Even crashed
| at the hak house with Darren a long time ago. Cool to see them
| here since they actually hack stuff haha.
| nebula8804 wrote:
| Was very fortunate to meet Darren, Shannon, and Patrick Norton
| at Defcon in 2019.
|
| It was surreal to see them and even though I probably acted all
| nervous around them (still kinda had a crush on Shannon even
| after all these years) they were beyond nice and friendly.
|
| They were super busy selling their kits (these OMG cables were
| being sold unofficially as well lol) but they took the time to
| chat about the history of Hak5(TechTV in the case of Patrick)
| and to take pics. All around a superb bunch of folks.
|
| Its crazy to think they have been doing Hak5 for like what
| 15-16 years now?! So many great memories all thanks to their
| hard work.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| I've been going to DefCon for many years and the hak5 merch
| booth is the first stop for all newcomers (myself included).
| Long lines and people handing over fists-full of cash.
| nebula8804 wrote:
| I did my part and purchased something. :P
|
| Seems like they get a big chunk of their yearly revenue
| from Defcon sales. Makes sense as I bet a lot of hackers
| might just want to do an in person transaction and this is
| the perfect opportunity to do so.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Totally! Cash only, no CC trail or delivery address. I
| lived in Charlotte NC for a brief period and I bought
| some lock picks from a "spy outlet" store in a mall. They
| scanned my driver's license and said they needed to keep
| it on file for a year. This was ... 1992 maybe? Yikes
| today.
| rntksi wrote:
| I remember about decades ago that keyloggers would be very scary
| and powerful because your only defense was your password, and you
| couldn't know someone was logging in at the same time as you if
| you were not aware of it.
|
| Nowadays, with 2FA and all the big companies doing extra security
| check up when they see something wrong with the login patterns
| ... I don't see the use of keyloggers anymore.
| andix wrote:
| Even if 2FA prevents you from logging in, you still get A LOT
| of information from a keylogger.
|
| You know the content of all the emails this user writes. You
| know the websites they visit. Based on the 2FA auth key they
| use, you may find out what kind of system it is.
|
| A great start for social engineering. The target user writes an
| email to someone and the day afterwards you can fake call them
| and pretend to be the recipient of the email (you have all the
| information). If you're lucky they wrote an email to management
| and now you can pass orders in this call.
| lrvick wrote:
| I can assure you keyloggers still work very well at most major
| companies.
|
| Maybe in a couple more decades they will have begun to use
| basic defenses already available.
| _RPL5_ wrote:
| Who buys this stuff? Other things in the shop:
|
| > Screen Crab: This covert inline screen grabber sits between
| HDMI devices - like a computer and monitor, or console and
| television - to quietly capture screenshots. Perfect for
| sysadmins, pentesters and anyone wanting to record what's on a
| screen.
|
| > Shark Jack: This portable network attack tool is a pentesters
| best friend optimized for social engineering engagements and
| opportunistic wired network auditing. Out-of-the-box it's armed
| with an ultra fast nmap payload, providing quick and easy network
| reconnaissance.
|
| > Key Croc: The Key Croc by Hak5 is a keylogger armed with
| pentest tools, remote access and payloads that trigger multi-
| vector attacks when chosen keywords are typed. It's the ultimate
| key-logging pentest implant.
|
| They say "pentesters." What prevents a malicious actor from
| buying and using these tools?
|
| I think I am missing something here.
| rout39574 wrote:
| I think you are missing nothing.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| I have a number of hak5 products to see what they fuss is about
| and to learn what kinds of attacks to worry about being used on
| me! In some cases they are not really usable anymore, like the
| WiFiPineapple, which is largely useless due to WPA2 being
| ubiquitous (yes, you can hack WPA2 but I don't feel like paying
| for a ton of AWS lamda functions to get on my neighbors wifi).
| They teach you about how things work from an entirely different
| point of view. BashBunny is my favorite and it still works, but
| who plugs in random USB sticks these days? I've never used it
| but I learned a lot more about USB!
| [deleted]
| burnished wrote:
| I think the only thing you are missing is that most people most
| of the time don't want to hurt or bother others and that much
| of society functioning relies on this.
|
| Cause nothing stopping you from buying any of that, at what
| looks like very reasonable rates.
| hashkb wrote:
| This is false. Most people will take advantage of any
| situation where they detect a low enough chance of
| consequences, regardleas of who is hurt. We act good because
| we don't want to be caught, embarrassed, or convicted and
| condemned.
|
| It's not that most people want to hurt others. It's just that
| most people care only for themselves. Source: reality.
| burnished wrote:
| Hey, we agree that most people don't want to hurt anyone! I
| think we're much closer to agreeing than you suspect.
|
| Now, we could quibble about whether people are more like to
| help you or victimize you and we could both be right. Or,
| we could observe that I'm correct about society functioning
| mostly because people don't mess with other people very
| much, you could chalk it up to friction and the lack of
| interest in others, and I will chalk it up to general back-
| ground good will.
| jtsiskin wrote:
| I don't think that is true. The 'median' person has empathy
| and care, and would not hurt someone even if they could be
| totally undetected - but there is a large skew, which makes
| this true for the 'mean' person and thus 'reality', if that
| makes any sense.
|
| As an example: a bowl of candy on Halloween with a "take 2
| pieces only please" sign on it. Most people will only take
| 2. A few people will grab a handful. And one person will
| come along and take the whole bowl.
| stevetodd wrote:
| I'm sorry for the world you live in. It's not that way for
| everyone everywhere. I hope you can find your way to some
| place better.
| ryanSrich wrote:
| I run a company that builds security awareness training
| software. While we don't do any hands on hardcore stuff that
| this hardware would be used for, I still have an interest in
| keeping up with it, understanding it, and working that
| understanding into our training curriculums.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Judging from the people who I see at DEFCON who follow the
| "Hak5" people, it's mostly kids and not professionals.
| sophacles wrote:
| The same people that buy lockpicks buy these:
|
| * enthusiasts
|
| * professional security people (blue team, pentesters)
|
| * criminals
|
| in the last 2 cases, they buy them because it's cheaper than
| making it themself.
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| Yes, penetration testers, red teams, blue teams, auditors, and
| a myriad of other security conscious roles take advantage of
| these tools.
|
| > What prevents a malicious actor from buying and using these
| tools?
|
| Nothing.
|
| What prevents _any actor_ from buying <insert any items here>
| and using it maliciously? A significantly deeper question. I
| rather promote this.
| _RPL5_ wrote:
| Well, for one, the US government prevents private actors from
| buying all sorts of things. I am surprised that selling tools
| which potentially "enable cyber crime" hasn't triggered some
| overzealous regulator in DC yet. It seems like low-hanging
| fruit.
| epinephrinios wrote:
| What prevents a criminal buying a chef's knife and
| committing a crime with it?
|
| I am surprised that selling tools which potentially "enable
| murder" hasn't triggered some overzealous regulator in DC
| yet. It seems like low-hanging fruit. /s
|
| Pro-authoritarian sentiment keeps going strong. Why is it
| so normalized these days?
| seaman1921 wrote:
| exactly, what prevents anyone from doing anything, really?
| haha!
| zarq wrote:
| "motivation" is usually the answer. Motivation can be
| (gaining) money, power, politics, etc.
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| Which begs the question, how do we raise future
| generations to have motivation which decreases
| malfeasance?
|
| I do not think there is a simple answer, but there is one
| out there...
| lrvick wrote:
| I for one teach kids to hack and lockpick every chance I
| get.
|
| When you can pick every lock around you it changes your
| worldview forever.
|
| Kids should not avoid something wrong because they are
| physically stopped by a lock.
|
| They should avoid it because it is wrong.
|
| Better they learn these skills from someone that will
| teach the ethics to go with them.
| pwillia7 wrote:
| I think this is a big problem for liberalism in the future.
| When we have 20 billion people and technology is more
| powerful and ubiquitous, big consequences could happen from
| individual bad actors remotely. Even if only the tiniest
| fraction of people wanted to do bad things, there would
| still be quite a few of them and they'll have more access
| as everything is more networked together.
| teknico wrote:
| There will never be 10 billion people alive at the same
| time, let alone 20.
| pwillia7 wrote:
| What's the certainty there? Could you expand?
| lrvick wrote:
| I buy this stuff, but I run a security consulting company.
|
| I also make my own stuff like this from time to time. A lot of
| it is pretty easy. I could teach a class of people to make a
| badusb device from scratch, code and all, in an hour. Any USB
| capable microcontroller will do. Should we ban those too?
|
| Bad actors have had more sophisticated hardware at their
| disposal for decades.
|
| Just look at teardowns of credit card skimmers.
|
| Hak5 is not helping those people. They are helping white hats
| catch up and helping spread awareness how easy this stuff is.
|
| While your mind is adjusting to this, I encourage you to put
| "crown vic fleet keys" in Amazon and buy yourself keys to the
| police cars in your area.
|
| The global state of security is a joke and we need people
| helping onboard whitehats to help teach people to do better.
| agitator wrote:
| If anything, by making devices like this accessible to the
| public, the end result is safer devices for everyone.
|
| Without products like this you have criminals, a small amount
| of enthusiasts/researchers, and government sponsored actors
| exploiting vulnerabilities. If you put it out in the open, much
| like open source software, everyone can do it, but there's more
| pressure to fix blatant vulnerabilities.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| Isn't that the same argument people use in support of gun
| ownership?
| hashkb wrote:
| The guns you can buy don't compare in any way to the guns
| the bad actors have. Apples and oranges.
| Zpalmtree wrote:
| What are you talking about?
| ViViDboarder wrote:
| No. I've never once seen someone say that making guns more
| available means that the general public gets better bullet
| proof technology.
|
| It, for example, hasn't resulted in accessible bulletproof
| vehicles for all.
|
| In technology, vulnerabilities found push companies to
| develop and deploy protections for them.
| mszcz wrote:
| I don't think that it is. As I understand it the argument
| in favor of guns is that they would supposedly protect you
| against someone else with a gun.
|
| I can't protect myself from someone with a RubberDucky with
| a RubberDucky of my own. However, knowing that these tools
| exist and how easy they are to acquire and the ability to
| try one out for yourself might actually make you think
| twice about plugging that random cable or USB drive into
| your box.
| jtsiskin wrote:
| As a simple example, the "trust this computer?" prompt
| standard on most phones. If devices like this were only known
| by states governments, this feature likely would have taken
| longer to become standard
| ShakataGaNai wrote:
| Hak5 isn't breaking any new grounds with their technology. They
| just make it a little easier to get/use and a little sleeker.
| Can someone abuse this? Sure. People misuse all sorts of handy
| tools all the time. Knives? Staplers? 2x4s? Hammers? All have
| been used to kill people - doesn't make them inherently bad.
|
| The difference is most people know about those other things and
| _don 't_ know about the things that hak5 sells. They don't even
| know it's possible, let alone it exists and is usable.
|
| Recently the lock picking lawyer got a USB drive lock in the
| mail and while he picked the lock, he refused the plug in the
| drive. People mocked him saying that he was silly for not
| simply plugging in the drive into a VM or special purpose
| computer. The next time around he brought out a USB Killer.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctByXhte_-A ex:
| https://usbkill.com/ .
|
| If you don't know a random cable or USB drive can be dangerous,
| you're likely to be the person who picks one up off the ground
| and uses it. Or worse, see one sitting unattended in a coffee
| shop or airport and decide you need a quick boost.
|
| What's being sold is educational just as it is dangerous.
| Terrible people are going to find a way to do terrible things.
| The least you can do is educate yourself to make it harder for
| them.
| CultMember002 wrote:
| We should not allow the Fed to stifle innovation and
| technological progress. If we are not willing to take risks, then
| we will never be able to reach out true potential of becoming a
| truly advanced space faring civilization and a multi-planetary
| species. The NHTSA does not have the technological capability to
| understand advanced AI used in Autopilot and Full Self Driving
| and they should stop their interference immediately. I have a
| Tesla and I bought the Full Self Driving package. I believe it is
| far more valuable than the current price. I am willing to pay 30
| times more for Full Self Driving.
| [deleted]
| aabajian wrote:
| I live in Seattle and have had my car broken into three times.
| Each time, they steal my iPhone's USB cable. I wonder, could they
| add cellular connectivity to this cable and use it as a GPS
| locator?
| voiper1 wrote:
| Sounds like now you should be worried if they "leave" your
| iPhone USB cable, they might have switched it with one that
| hacks you.
| lucideer wrote:
| Not sure about GPS but it includes remote access via WiFi, and
| some of the cables on offer quote "Long Range WiFi (2 KM+)"
| Y_Y wrote:
| Why can't all my devices have 2km WiFi!?
| VenTatsu wrote:
| The cables have 2km WiFi with a directional antenna
| (presumably on the other end), you could probably get
| similar range out of most of your devices if your bases
| station had a directional antenna, but that eliminates much
| of the value for many WiFi applications.
| megous wrote:
| Because you'd share bandwidth with 100k other people in a
| city. You'd be glad for the days of dialup.
| PeterisP wrote:
| Do you mean something like this -
| https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001759023561.html ? You'd
| just have to look for a version with the proper connector that
| you need, that particular example is microUSB but there are
| similar cables for iPhone.
| baybal2 wrote:
| I think you need to consider an armoured Mercedes
| cbg0 wrote:
| Are they really breaking into your car just to steal your USB
| cable or is there other stuff you leave in plain sight?
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| My car was broken into 3pm in the afternooon in Austin last
| summer. Nothing visible. They emptied the console and
| glovebox.
|
| They stole:
|
| * cheap sunglasses
|
| * tire pressure gauge
|
| * box of bandaids
|
| * my car's USER MANUAL, ffs
|
| * charging cable
|
| They left:
|
| * small envelope with $80 cash tucked under the removable
| console coin holder.
|
| * all the coins.
|
| So very confused.
| exikyut wrote:
| Armchair theory: taking the stereotypical idea of "squirrel
| on crack" both seriously and literally, maybe people on
| drugs become like bowerbirds with very, very broken
| interestingness ranking.
|
| All the stuff you mentioned was immediately visible (so no
| complex problem solving to find it) and would probably look
| "definitely probably valuable" to a hyped up 5 year old.
|
| Aaaaand thennnn whoever did the stealing probably just sold
| it all to someone else in _exactly the same condition_
| (high on whatever) who also considered it valuable enough
| to make a fair trade to swap it all for $amount of $thing.
|
| I'm not sure what the balance is, but it's part-hilarious
| and part-sad that, if this theory is correct, there's an
| utterly illogical commodity market being sustained by
| tweaked-out squirrels with half the attention span of a
| goldfish, leaves people scratching their heads in its wake,
| and is so confusingly successful people just don't park in
| certain places.
| fragmede wrote:
| I'm in San Francisco, so not Seattle, but cars get broken
| into for the sport of it by this point. A friend's had her
| window broken and used, gross dog leashes and an old Nokia
| charger stolen. The lost hours of work to replace the window
| was the real cost to her dog walking business.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| I've never had my car broken into... but most of that was a
| midwestern city not the coasts, although I've been in San
| Fran, NYC, and DC.
|
| I have a very messy car. Not rotting food messy, just a lot
| of clothes and things, often a lot of workout clothes,
| backup winter clothes, a couple blankets.
|
| Thieves like clean cars. See target, break in, grab, leave.
| Messy cars are slow, annoying, and induce too much
| cognitive load.
|
| If I lived in San Fran right now, I would have a shitty car
| with a lot of clothing in it just for the purposes of
| covering up things I don't want stolen and being annoying
| to thieves.
| daveidol wrote:
| I don't think that would be nearly as big of a deterrent
| in SF as you'd hope. It seems like nowadays any car that
| CAN be broken into will be.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Just park with your windows open if there's nothing they
| can really take. Repairing the window isn't with the cost
| or the time.
| tschwimmer wrote:
| As clever as this idea sounds, it's not a good
| suggestion. I once accidentally left my windows down in
| SF for 12 hours and my car was essentially stripped clean
| - headrests, registration, proof of insurance, manual,
| floor mats - all gone. Additionally all my doors and
| trunk were wide open.
| cromat3 wrote:
| Sounds horrible and for me it is unimaginable. In
| Croatia, you rarely hear that a car waa broken into even
| in bigger cities. In smaller towns a lot of people don't
| even bother to lock their cars.
| burnished wrote:
| I suspect it might be due to demand/ability to unload hot
| goods. Or maybe yall got it good in Croatia and no one
| feels the desire to go rifling through cars?
| umeshunni wrote:
| I suspect Croatia might have better law enforcement and
| attorneys than SF does (look up Chesa Boudin)
| bikezen wrote:
| Ah yes, the solution to crime in the country with the
| highest incarceration rate, is more incarceration!
| burnished wrote:
| If you google "Chesa Boudin" and hit question box marked
| What Did Chesa Boudin Do? It reveals thus
|
| "Then, in November, Boudin did something no San Francisco
| DA had done before: He charged a police officer with
| homicide, for the killing of an unarmed Black man in
| 2017"
|
| so maybe you're going off a little half-cocked
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| Why do you think that is?
| kntmckenebrt wrote:
| In countries like Croatia the police is busy catching
| criminals instead of helping them inject heroin, going
| after mean people on Twitter, or calculating if the
| robbed amount is under 900 USD and then apologising to
| the thief and giving him a ride home like the SF police
| do.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| I guess I've never driven a nice enough car. I used to
| keep my windows down any time I parked along 8th/Harrison
| and fwiw nothing ever happened to my car, though there
| were obvious signs of folks rifling around inside. All my
| documents were kept in a locked glove compartment and I
| pretty much had nothing stealable in the car without
| having the car be cased.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| My friend visited a car breakin prone area in canada
| once, and left his car unlocked like his girlfriend
| suggested. They broke his window anyway, and stole a
| minecraft keychain and about $4 in change.
|
| Hilariously he actually got the stuff back eventually
| kevinmgranger wrote:
| That might help in San Francisco, but in Seattle, that's
| lost hours dealing with a soaked interior.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Yeah this isn't for rainy or dusty environments for sure.
| ddalex wrote:
| It may be getting soaked in SF too, but with different
| kind of fluids
| rOOb85 wrote:
| Thanks for the f-shack
|
| - Dirty Mike & The Boys
| isatty wrote:
| And risk someone shitting in your car? No thanks.
| 1-6 wrote:
| Problem in San Francisco is, you'll get people sleeping
| in your car if you do that.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| San Diego as well; happened to me Monday. Car didn't lock
| all the way (older car) and they try every handle.
|
| Thankfully they didn't wreck the car or anything. Just
| laid the seat back.
| dugmartin wrote:
| Depending on the height of your windows I would think
| sleeping would be the best thing other people could do to
| your car.
| ficklepickle wrote:
| Dirty Mike and the boys will have an f-shack in there and
| it will never be the same
| m0llusk wrote:
| Not sure why this is getting downvoted. I know at least
| one person who had to get rid of their car after a stinky
| street person crashed in it. This is a real thing that
| happens and once an awful stench has permeated cloth and
| upholstery there is no easy fix.
| dctoedt wrote:
| > * I know at least one person who had to get rid of
| their car after a stinky street person crashed in it.*
|
| Obligatory reference to the Seinfeld "The Smelly Car"
| episode (one of the few I've actually seen). [0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smelly_Car
| lijogdfljk wrote:
| I'd fear the associated smell.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Lightning cables are expensive, and Apple is definitely
| encouraging car theft by not including them in the box
| anymore.
|
| edit: this was a joke and it got appropriately downvoted. I
| regret nothing.
| deelowe wrote:
| A cable that costs $20 - $30 retail NEW doesn't seem worth
| risking jail time over.
| trenning wrote:
| Man they're selling stolen $25 bottles of tequila on 3rd
| Ave. Not even expensive stuff is hot commodity now,
| especially if you live in a cash world. Most of the stuff
| the street bazaars sell is straight up junk. A shiny
| Apple cable is worth it
| jtbayly wrote:
| It's like soap, which is much cheaper. Both are easily
| sold.
| chooseaname wrote:
| You may be underestimating how significant $20-$30 is to
| some people.
|
| Edit: wording.
| deelowe wrote:
| Are you suggesting a stolen cable brings the same sort of
| premium as a new one from Apple?
|
| Regardless, I'm not suggesting this at all. My point is
| that there are likely ways to get something worth so
| little without risking significant jail time.
| __alexs wrote:
| You may be surprised to learn that the economics of small
| scale theft are pretty weird.
| https://priceonomics.com/why-thieves-steal-soap/
| deelowe wrote:
| This is kind of my point. I guess I underestimated the
| demand for iphone cables.
| [deleted]
| progman32 wrote:
| People break into cars to steal pocket change in the cup
| holder, so a $5 cable isn't outside the realm of what a
| thief would grab. Especially if they're already in the
| car.
| coryrc wrote:
| There's no risk of jail for theft in Seattle.
|
| https://crosscut.com/2019/10/whats-seattle-doing-solve-
| its-s...
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| And people wonder why there is so much crime...
| coryrc wrote:
| About half blame poverty/insufficient government handouts
| and excuse the theft.
|
| About half blame not prosecuting crime.
|
| But no one wonders. Everyone "knows".
| knownjorbist wrote:
| You don't need government handouts, you need sane
| policies that stop making CoL so expensive.
| hansvm wrote:
| It's worth it for someone. I've had people break into my
| car for 3 quarters and a half ounce of super glue.
| mhh__ wrote:
| I genuinely think HN's emergent property of discouraging
| jokes actively encourages this kind of misunderstanding and
| inability to process ambiguous titles using common sense.
| payme wrote:
| >https://www.ebay.com/itm/223990414124
|
| From lrvick's comment.
| adam0c wrote:
| that opening line of needing a million dollar budget LOL if
| anyone follows @_MG_ you'll know that this has been a very long
| project thats really not been that expensive the dude dropped a
| load around defcon then hak5 came in and said hey we can charge
| and arm and a leg for these...
| puzzlingcaptcha wrote:
| The quoted price refers to
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NSA_COTTONMOUTH-I.jpg
| (although admittedly for 50 units. Bargain!)
| xwdv wrote:
| I fantasize all the time about buying stuff like this and using
| it for nefarious purposes.
|
| Unfortunately the only real legit use for it is boring security
| work.
|
| The best way to use this while avoiding big legal trouble would
| be to stalk a single target that would never have any idea they
| are being stalked and doesn't have much resources to come after
| you legally. Maybe an ex-girlfriend or something.
| saltyfamiliar wrote:
| Would they really need many resources to take legal action?
| What you're describing is illegal. They could simply call the
| police if they found you out.
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