[HN Gopher] System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD intern...
___________________________________________________________________
System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in
stock
Author : sampling
Score : 509 points
Date : 2021-08-31 19:58 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (system76.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (system76.com)
| lurtbancaster wrote:
| Why is it so hard to find laptops with ECC memory?
|
| Surely SO-DIMMs are just as susceptible to bitflips as regular
| Desktop DIMMs?
|
| Am I the only one to care about this?
| reilly3000 wrote:
| I believe ECC is incredibly hard to get these days, but I could
| be out of touch. It certainly was last year. I haven't seen it
| in many laptop offerings over the years, except perhaps Dell's
| workstation-type offerings as an option.
|
| I'm curious if bitflips have been an issue for you in your
| experience. I don't think I've encountered it, but I may have
| misattributed various bugs to software defects when they were
| in fact due to bit flips.
| lurtbancaster wrote:
| That's the problem with bitflips isn't it? It's only a
| possibility that can be considered when all other
| possibilities have been eliminated.
|
| Whenever I've had non-ECC systems KPs/BSODs, it's possible
| that it might just be due to a bug, but in the back of my
| mind, I know there's always the possibility that it was due
| to a bitflip.
|
| I feel psychologically uncomfortable working on a computer
| without ECC. I say ECC everything - Desktops, Laptops, and
| even smartphones.
|
| This laptop proclaims a maximum of 64GB of RAM. If you do
| populate the slots with that much non-ECC RAM, that only
| further increases the surface area for random bitflips. What
| use is more RAM in a Linux laptop if it hasn't been made more
| reliable?
|
| It's high time more laptops shipped with ECC. At least
| unregistered ECC, if not buffered ones.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Just to add my anecdatum: I am on my third or fourth System76
| laptop, the others are all still working just after a few years I
| need to upgrade. One is now the living room stereo and one is the
| gaming room stereo. The point I'm making is that they last for
| years, I think my oldest is a decade old and still works fine.
| So, just one person's experience but there it is.
| watermelon0 wrote:
| What's up with these designs? Their laptops look like they are a
| few years behind, compared to MacBooks/XPS/Surface/etc.
|
| 1080p on 15" is quite criminal, do they think people look at this
| at 2 meter distance or something?
| cbHXBY1D wrote:
| I would love this in the Lemur Pro. Not sure where coreboot is
| for all AMD chipsets.
| jhoho wrote:
| The work is ongoing, it might take until the next release:
| https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Coreboot...
| sneak wrote:
| 1080p.
|
| Even my shitty XPS has a >200ppi display.
|
| Why do PC laptops so often have crap screens? How am I to replace
| a retina MBP with this?
| frant-hartm wrote:
| I don't understand why they don't offer 128 GB version.
| detaro wrote:
| Quite simple: The CPU doesn't support that.
| sebow wrote:
| Ugh, better late than never i guess...
|
| People have been waiting for this since 1st gen ryzen.Yea i know
| they're not on the Lenovo/Asus-tier of resources, but still.
| antattack wrote:
| Seems better than Acer [1]but I don't think it's $700 better
|
| [1]https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/model/NX.A82AA.002
| bestouff wrote:
| The only missing part for me is thunderbolt. I'm so used to it in
| laptops I would have a hard time without it.
| xxs wrote:
| It's an AMD machine, no thunderbolt.
| shams93 wrote:
| I get away with a thinkpad chrome book I got for $700 with
| similar ryzen 5 and 8 gigs runs app my stuff including docker and
| android studio.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| OMG and it has an HDMI 2.0? Is this the first real laptop that is
| as good as a 2013 macbook pro (aka the last HDMI non-ribbon one)
| eecc wrote:
| Ouch: * 1080p * beancouter optimized keyboard
|
| why?
| jagger27 wrote:
| I say it every time every time one of these threads pop up and
| I'll say it again here: if it's not 16:10 or 3:2 I'm simply not
| interested.
|
| I buy devices like this for productivity. I don't care about
| black bars when watching videos because I don't watch videos on
| it. What I absolutely care about is the extra inch of text in my
| terminal or text editor.
|
| I didn't think this was a controversial opinion.
| stevenhuang wrote:
| What makes you think this is controversial? Your antagonistic
| stance on this is strange.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Immediately after posting it was downvoted heavily. The last
| sentence was added then.
| bo1024 wrote:
| Framework might be for you! I think it's 3:2.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Indeed it's nearly perfect, but I would only buy it with a
| considerably better processor. Both Intel and AMD have
| incredible stuff lined up for the next few years in that
| space. For now though, since I have to keep a Mac around for
| work, I'll probably stick with my M1 MacBook Air for my
| portable needs and keep using Linux on my desktop.
| freedomben wrote:
| a great thing about the framework though is the processor
| is upgradeable! So once the new stuff comes out ...
| qudat wrote:
| You're still forced into buying an intel chip now. I'm
| holding out for an AMD with frame.work before purchasing.
| Hopefully they will come out with one before I purchase a
| M1 macbook air.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Yes, if I haven't just bought this MacBook I'd probably
| consider it.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Doesn't a wide aspect ratio let you put two code listings next
| to each other?
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| If you're viewing this website on a computer, what dimensions
| are your browser window?
|
| On mine, it's roughly the size and proportion of my last CRT
| monitor. I didn't do it out of nostalgia, but it's
| significantly less comfortable for my eyes to scan horizontal
| than vertical.
|
| It's not that I want height as much as I don't want width.
| [deleted]
| jagger27 wrote:
| Sure. It works even better with a little extra height.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Isn't that argument circular?
|
| Wide screen - great but add a little height so you can see
| more rows. Now you have a tall screen - great but add a
| little width so you can see more columns.
| jagger27 wrote:
| See layer8's comment above. Let's say there's a sweet
| spot somewhere between ultrawide and square. Why would
| 16:9 be ideal? The golden ratio is pretty close to 16:10,
| which is the basis of A4 (etc.) paper.
| lmm wrote:
| > Why would 16:9 be ideal? The golden ratio is pretty
| close to 16:10, which is the basis of A4 (etc.) paper.
|
| No it isn't. A4 paper is roughly 7:5 (actually sqrt-2).
| The fact that people consistently get this wrong suggests
| that the golden ratio isn't actually all it's cracked up
| to be (IME the golden ratio makes for things that are too
| wide. My laptop has a 3:2 screen that I'm very happy
| with)
| jagger27 wrote:
| Whoops, so it is. I agree that 3:2 is close to ideal in a
| laptop form factor.
| admax88qqq wrote:
| Yup.
|
| In the end, wide vs tall makes less of a difference than
| total size in inches and total number of pixels.
|
| Take your preferred 4:3 and add horizontal pixels under
| 16:9, or your preferred 16:9 and add vertical pixeks
| under 4:3, on either case you can fit more on the screen.
| layer8 wrote:
| 16:10 or 3:2 screens usually are not reduced in width
| (compared to 16:9), but extended in height. For example, the
| 16:10 counterpart of FHD is not 1728x1080, but 1920x1200.
| (Historically, it's actually the other way around: When 16:9
| displays were introduced, those were cut-down versions of
| existing 16:10 resolutions, with the same horizontal but less
| vertical resolution.)
|
| If you're used to the extra height, even ultra-wide aspect
| ratios such as 21:9 (or even wider) do not compensate for the
| lost height compared to the corresponding :10 or :10.666
| height.
| patrickthebold wrote:
| So what's your opinion of a 4k UHD display? It's 16:9 but
| twice as many vertical pixels as this laptop.
| layer8 wrote:
| It doesn't really matter, if the diagonal is roughly the
| same and you use 200% scaling. The corresponding 16:10 or
| 3:2 would still be preferable (or even 4:3, which was
| once the standard aspect ratio for laptops). For a given
| notebook width, you basically want as much height as
| possible.
|
| For desktop monitors, it can be more of a personal
| preference regarding FOV and window layout. For me
| personally, I think a ~30" 16:11 [sic] would be close to
| ideal.
| smichel17 wrote:
| I math'd this out recently and decided that ~16:9
| actually would be the ideal ratio for me.. On a ~42" 8k
| monitor, using 2x scaling.
|
| I'm optimizing mainly for viewing three documents side by
| side here. Having your primary document (e.g. text editor
| or IDE) centered means you're not constantly turning your
| head one way or another. And it has the added benefit of
| working well for media (compared to 3 monitors in
| vertical orientation). At 8k and that screen size.. the
| aspect ratio doesn't matter as long as there's enough
| vertical pixels and inches.
| iratewizard wrote:
| I found the same thing when 4k was first coming out on an
| inexpensive hisense TV. It would be hard to go back to
| only 2 or 3 side-by-side editing panes.
| [deleted]
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| You said: <<On a ~42" 8k monitor, using 2x scaling>>
|
| Is this different from <<On a ~42" 4k monitor, using 1x
| scaling>>?
|
| I am also _very_ picky about my screens.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Did I miss it or does it not mention battery life?
| inetknght wrote:
| I have a System76 Serval WS with AMD Ryzen 9 3900 and Nvidia GTX
| 1660 Ti manufactured last year. The laptop's internal display
| went wonky late last week but an external display still works
| fine. It's annoying to reboot -- the GPU drivers aren't loaded
| yet when the boot disk passphrase prompt is shown, so the
| external display doesn't show the passphrase prompt (and
| importantly: whether unlocking succeeded). It's within a 1-year
| warranty for parts & labor. I'm currently talking to with
| System76 support staff to ship it back for repair. The process
| has, so far, been easy and straightforward.
|
| In the past they had pushed a driver update that disabled the
| laptop display when multiple monitors are connected. I had
| recognized the problem since their system drivers are open source
| and was able to recommend & review a PR to fix [0]. It was nice
| to see that patch go in.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/pop-os/system76-driver/pull/182
| NexRebular wrote:
| How's *BSD support on these ones?
| jandrese wrote:
| The specs page is a bit vague in places.
| Graphics AMD Radeon(tm) Graphics Storage 1
| x M.2 SSD(SATA or PCIe NVMe). Up to 2TB total.
|
| In the configurator you have to pay attention to the read speeds
| to figure out if you are getting a SATA or PCIe drive. There is
| no indication for which brand of drive they are using. I have a
| few SSD controllers that are on my do not buy list, like anything
| made by Sandforce[1] after we lost almost an entire lot of
| computers to premature firmware failures and got absolutely no
| support from the vendor for even just resetting the firmware and
| starting over.
|
| [1] https://computerlounge.it/how-to-unbrick-sandforce-ssd/
| wmf wrote:
| Sandforce hasn't existed for years BTW. Unfortunately the
| general problem stands; virtually no laptop will tell you what
| SSD you're getting.
| scns wrote:
| At https://tuxedocomputers.com another Clevo reseller like
| System76, you can choose the SSD you want or even none and
| put it in yourself.
|
| Disclaimer: contented customer
| nicholasjarnold wrote:
| > There is no indication for which brand of drive they are
| using.
|
| Yes, though they tend to use quality parts. My 2019 Darter Pro
| (darp5) was configured with a one of the NVMe options and
| shipped with a 'Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus'. No complaints on
| hardware quality or longevity so far. </anecdote>
| neogodless wrote:
| While you're right that the brand is not listed, every single
| drive in the configurator lists NVME. The "Storage"
| specification you show is just what the M.2 connection supports
| as far as interface. So if you have an existing SATA M.2 drive,
| or want to buy one to save money, you can.
|
| The graphics are integrated into the APU, so you can look up
| their specifications.
|
| https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u
|
| https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700u
| jagger27 wrote:
| For graphics, the 5500U has 7 CUs at 1800 MHz. The 5700U has 8
| CUs at 1900 MHz. They're both ancient Vega APUs so they're
| really nothing special.
| heurisko wrote:
| I have the 4500u with the AMD Radeon RX Vega 6.
|
| I know it's not the latest architecture, but I've found it
| very capable for integrated graphics.
| edoceo wrote:
| Can you write code and use a terminal and web, two
| displays? Can you use one big (4k?)
| heurisko wrote:
| I don't have anything that supports 4k, but it has no
| problem connecting to anything via HDMI for two displays.
| snovv_crash wrote:
| I have a 4800u. I've plugged it into an external 4k
| display and it had no issue pushing that around, as well
| as the built-in 1080p at the same time.
| neogodless wrote:
| Obviously the "Linux-first" is a big value-add for this brand,
| but the hardware for the price isn't amazing.
|
| $1200 gets you a Zen 2 (previous generation) 6-core, 12-thread
| CPU[0], 8GB RAM, 240 GB NVME, 15" 1080p (did not see
| brightness/color accuracy mentioned.)
|
| But I like my laptops to come with fast refresh and a dedicated
| GPU, and I run Windows, so I'm not their target audience. Would
| love to hear how this is received by those in the right market
| segment!
|
| [0] A bunch of $600-700 laptops with this CPU:
| https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I just recently got this: https://www.newegg.com/pine-gray-
| asus-zenbook-14-um425ua-ns7... and it's a great laptop. The
| equivalent pangolin is nearly double the price.
| avodonosov wrote:
| What OS do you use with it?
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I use windows on it. Only my game server runs Linux because
| I expose it to the internet.
| webmobdev wrote:
| Price does seem to be on the higher side. It does satisfy most
| of my checklist though:
|
| - Does the hardware fully support Linux? _Yes_.
|
| - Does it have the latest AMD Ryzen CPU? _Kind of (last gen is
| decent too)._
|
| - Can you run other OS on it? _Yes._
|
| - Is the screen glossy? _No (is matte / anti-glare)_.
|
| - Is the RAM soldered? _No_.
|
| - Is the RAM upgradeable? _Yes, upto 64 GB_.
|
| - Is the SSD soldered? _No_.
|
| - Is the SSD upgradeable? _Yes_.
|
| - Can the battery be easily replaced? _Yes_.
| flatiron wrote:
| Look at the framework laptop too
| webmobdev wrote:
| Yeah, a big fan of what they've designed - just waiting for
| version 2 so that all the production bugs are discovered
| and ironed out. Hopefully v2 will come with an AMD
| processor.
| fsflover wrote:
| And at Purism.
| techrat wrote:
| It's all Clevo based anyway. System76 doesn't go much beyond
| what they source. It's a shame, if they actually made the
| effort to design a laptop that went beyond its foundation, I'd
| be more interested. But instead it's Clevo guts, Clevo
| problems.
|
| Looking at the AMD laptop linked...
|
| Lots of empty space that could have been slightly optimized for
| a larger battery. It just seems basically thought out... not
| like consideration is actually put into the design and layout.
| baybal2 wrote:
| It's not Clevo, it's Qinghua
| fsflover wrote:
| > if they actually made the effort to design a laptop that
| went beyond its foundation, I'd be more interested.
|
| Have a look at https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 then.
| indolering wrote:
| Mine fell apart and the company is shady.
| wmf wrote:
| System76 can afford to design their own laptops _after_
| enough people order the existing models.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| System76 has been around for 16 years. If they wanted to
| design their own laptop, they would have done so by now.
|
| Other companies like Purism, MNT, and Pine64 have gone way
| further than system76 despite being much younger.
| acomjean wrote:
| You are right that's the value add. Not having to worry if the
| hardware works and having a curated linux (popOS is very much
| like ubuntu).
|
| I've had a system 76 onyx laptop running popOS for over 2 years
| now. It keeps itself updated and I'm able to do my tasks with
| very minimal system configurations. Firmware updates come
| through fine. I think Linux hardware support is pretty good for
| a lot of laptops, but for me it was worth the extra money not
| to have to deal with it.
|
| My system 76 is "Clevo" OEMed machine. Very much evidenced when
| I let stuff get in the fan and I had to replace it. Parts are
| available.
|
| https://www.clevo.com.tw/index-en.asp
|
| As someone who is new to Linux on desktop, it was pretty great.
| I got Unreal engine compiled, Intelij and It can even use
| steam. My machine has a Nvidia 1060? so its actually pretty
| decent for the limited gaming I do.
|
| Like many things, if things go well and this scales up, the
| additional cost for having staff making sure linux is supported
| should go down.
| mariushn wrote:
| $906 gets you Ryzen 7, 16GB RAM, 14", no numpad:
|
| https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/search?fq={!ex=733}lengs_Screen...
| neogodless wrote:
| That's not accurate. If you click through, it's a set of
| laptops starting at $906. The model at that price is
|
| * AMD Ryzen(tm) 3 Pro 5450U Processor (4 cores)
|
| * 8 GB RAM
|
| * 128 GB storage
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Here's a better comparison. https://www.newegg.com/pine-
| gray-asus-zenbook-14-um425ua-ns7...
| noderblade wrote:
| Wft is wrong with laptop market. Fhd on 15". While smartphones
| usually comes with fhd+ and 4k on 6 inches.
| peakaboo wrote:
| Battery time is always much better if you avoid the 4k screens
| and such.
| noderblade wrote:
| Its plain bs it has been tested on multiple platforms
| yielding almost the same times.
|
| Also if pixel count would be an issue smarphones would also
| go this way as they are more battery time critical.
| jhanschoo wrote:
| I find it a little weird when integrated graphics is mentioned as
| prominently as such in marketing copy. "Ryzen CPU + Radeon
| graphics = Mobile AMD laptop."
| chludek wrote:
| Pretty much no details about the display. What kind of panel is
| this? What's the maximum brightness? How fast is the refresh
| rate? How large is the color gamut?
| pyrophane wrote:
| If it weren't for that damn 16:9 display this would be a good
| machine for me.
| ruined wrote:
| 1080p screen is a no-go. come on yall, it's 2021
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| Well, (it's been a while so this might be really false now)
| Linux might have not-so-great support for HiDPI screens.
|
| Either way, I can't really see the difference between 1080p and
| 4K, so it wouldn't matter for _me_.
| Aeolos wrote:
| That might be correct when talking about _video_, but is
| factually incorrect when talking about _text_.
|
| To understand why, just print an identical piece of text on
| 600, 300, 150 and 75 dpi on your printer and look at the
| printouts side by side. There is a significant downgrade in
| quality between each step, and anything below 300 dpi looks
| quite bad.
|
| 15.6" at 1080p is ~141 ppi[1] which is in the "not good"
| range. Your OS attempts to salvage the situation by applying
| font hinting (i.e. distorting your fonts to fit the pixel
| grid) and antialiasing (subpixel on linux, grayscale on the
| latest versions of windows & macos) - both of which are
| imperfect workarounds for the lack of resolution.
|
| The MacBook Pro is ~217 ppi (1800p at 15.6"), which is better
| but still not perfect.
|
| A 4K 15.6" screen works out at ~282 ppi, which is starting to
| be good enough to finally turn off font hinting and view
| fonts as intended by their designer rather than squished by
| subpar display technology.
|
| [1] https://www.sven.de/dpi/
| bscphil wrote:
| > both of which are imperfect workarounds for the lack of
| resolution
|
| Imperfect, certainly, but they _are_ pretty good
| workarounds that usually generate perfectly readable text.
| In my experience, when text looks bad at 1080p, it is more
| often because hinting has been done _badly_ , heavily
| distorting the letter forms, rather than the inherent
| limitations of the resolution.
|
| To be clear, I certainly prefer reading text at higher
| DPIs, but at should be seen as one particular tradeoff to
| be weighed against the heavier battery and graphics demands
| of higher pixel count screens.
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| I understand what you're saying, but antialiasing, despite
| its being a flawed workaround, seems to work well enough
| for me that even when reading text on a 4K display it's not
| a huge difference that I can notice it so much that it
| bothers me (I used a 4K monitor for a couple of years).
| Sure, 4K for text might be better, but it doesn't mean that
| _I_ notice a difference.
| cupofjoakim wrote:
| Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient. The
| upsides of not wasting battery and just performance of not
| having to push more pixels makes it worth it. Even gaming
| channels like LTT talk about this a bit.
|
| That being said - if you're coming from the macbooks retina
| it's definitely a downgrade. My guess however is that this
| device won't have a screen that is that good either way though.
| orangecat wrote:
| _Even gaming channels like LTT talk about this a bit._
|
| The major benefit of high-DPI displays isn't for gaming or
| graphics, it's for text. Once you're used to decent
| resolution and scaling, reading on anything else looks like a
| blurry mess.
| approxim8ion wrote:
| I think this is the key. I've never used very good or very
| high-res screens for a sustained period of time, so I
| haven't gotten used to it. Personally I'm not too keen on
| jumping on them. My 1366x768 15.6" screen renders text just
| fine for me.
| bscphil wrote:
| At 15.6 inches I think it depends pretty heavily on how good
| your operating system's font rendering is.
|
| If you're stuck on Windows I can't imagine using anything
| lower than 4k at that size. On the other hand, I'm using a
| 17.x inch laptop currently, only about a foot and a half from
| my face, at only 1080p, and it's fine. (Before you blame my
| vision - I'm actually nearsighted. My vision is near-perfect
| at this distance.)
|
| I certainly wouldn't accept this DPI from a current laptop,
| of course; the font rendering certainly could be a lot better
| and more density would be nice for easier photo editing and
| so on, but I think a lot of people have forgotten just how
| good 1080p can be if it's handled well in software. A whole
| generation spent most of their time on crappy CRTs. Compared
| to that almost any HD screen is an enormous improvement.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Sweet spot @15" for me is 1200p if I can get it 1440p
| otherwise. I haven't used a computer with less than 1200
| vertical lines since 2004 and I don't plan on changing it.
| ciupicri wrote:
| Gamers are known of playing at lower resolutions so they
| would get more FPS.
| ayushnix wrote:
| > Hard disagree. On a 15.6" 1080p really is sufficient.
|
| Considering what I've recently learned about the fractional
| scaling mess, I would only buy laptops with a 1440p or 4K
| display because they don't need fractional scaling.
|
| I really wish there were more 24 inch 4K or 27 inch 5K
| monitors on the market and not the 27 inch 4K mess we're
| getting. I'm not sure what monitor manufacturers are
| thinking.
| viraptor wrote:
| What do you mean by " _need_ fractional scaling "? This
| really depends on what you prefer, but I'm on 15" with 100%
| scale and enjoy it.
| ayushnix wrote:
| Yes, I didn't take 15 inch laptops into account because I
| have a 14 inch laptop.
|
| See my reply here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28376008
| chrismorgan wrote:
| 15.6'' 1366x768: 100ppi. It could be improved by 90%
| scaling, but that doesn't tend to work quite so well.
| Basically everyone uses it at 1x.
|
| 15.6'' 1920x1080 (1080p): 141ppi. Generally comfortable at
| 1-1.25x, most will use at 1x.
|
| 15.6'' 2560x1440 (1440p): 188ppi. Generally comfortable at
| 1.33-1.75x, most will use at 1.5x. Definitely uncomfortable
| at both 1x and 2x. If you don't like fractional scaling,
| you _don't_ want 1440p.
|
| 15.6'' 3840x2160 (4K): 282ppi. Generally comfortable at
| 2-2.5x, most will use at 2x.
|
| These figures I'm suggesting are aiming for about
| 110-140dpi. I have a 15.6'' 2560x1440 screen, and 1.5x
| scaling mostly works very well, basically perfectly under
| Windows which I never use and with only minor issues under
| Linux/Sway with high-DPI XWayland patches once I've
| manually intervened to fix a few variously broken things.
| ayushnix wrote:
| Hmm, I guess I didn't think about the 15.6 inch size in
| laptops. I have a 14 inch laptop so I was thinking in
| terms of that size. 1080p on my laptop needs 1.2 -- 1.3
| scaling to look "normal". I know people dismiss this as
| personal taste but 1) IINM, Windows defaults to 125%
| automatically on such a display and 2) I have a hard time
| reading text without scaling my 14 inch 1080p display.
|
| Sure, people, resort to scaling just the fonts but
| everything looks out of place if you do that. The fonts
| are big but the UI elements are still small.
|
| Personally, I chose to compromise as well by scaling just
| the fonts on SwayWM because fractional scaling introduces
| slightly noticeable degradation of font quality which is
| unacceptable to me.
|
| But yeah, in that case, 4K display on a laptop looks like
| a safe bet so I would only go for that in the future.
| Thanks.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| 14'' is an uncomfortable size for integral scaling: past
| 1366x768 (112ppi), _all_ of the popular sizes call for
| fractional scaling: in my rough guide of 110-140ppi,
| that's about 110-140% for 1080p (so the 125% you cited is
| good), about 150-190% for 1440p, and about 225-285% for
| 4K.
|
| (13.3'' works better: 100% for 1366x768, 120-150% for
| 1080p so no integer there, 160-200% for 1440p, 240-300%
| for 4K.)
|
| Fractional scaling in Sway doesn't degrade quality in any
| way in Wayland windows: it leaves the scaling to the app
| to execute, and I haven't come across a single app
| getting it wrong. Text will be rendered perfectly. Pixel-
| precise stuff can be a tad funny, e.g. a 1px border on an
| element in Firefox will be rendered as one or two device
| pixels in most contexts.
|
| But then there's anything still using X11: without the
| high-DPI patches, XWayland renders at 1x and scales it up
| so that it'll look bad for _any_ scale higher than one,
| whether fractional or integral. With the patches, you get
| to decide what to do.
|
| On my 1440p 15.6'' display, I have scale 1.5 and xwayland
| scale 3, which normally works very well, but I do have to
| drop it to 1 occasionally for some things due to apps
| that don't do scaling and the fact that the patches are
| still imperfect and you can actually soft-lock apps when
| they try to open certain windows (mostly popups,
| including menus) until you drop the scale.
| ayushnix wrote:
| > Fractional scaling in Sway doesn't degrade quality in
| any way in Wayland windows: it leaves the scaling to the
| app to execute, and I haven't come across a single app
| getting it wrong.
|
| Funny you say that considering Firefox goes haywire if
| you use it on Sway with fractional scaling.
|
| https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/6432
| https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/6426
| https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/6147
|
| Other Qt apps like Qterminal are also not able to show
| tooltips normally if you enable scaling. Some Qt apps
| which I absolutely adore like Spectacle and Gwenview
| don't work at all though this might be a different issue.
|
| > But then there's anything still using X11: without the
| high-DPI patches, XWayland renders at 1x and scales it up
| so that it'll look bad for _any_ scale higher than one,
| whether fractional or integral. With the patches, you get
| to decide what to do.
|
| The unofficial XWayland HiDPI patches? Yeah, I'm not
| gonna use them if they're official. It's a pain to
| compile and build complex packages like these. The AUR is
| fine for small and casual packages with a few
| dependencies but nothing complex, I feel.
| jm4 wrote:
| I would have thought the same several years ago. At age 40+,
| 1080p on a laptop is still good. Even at 1080p, I have to go
| into accessibility settings to enlarge text. I'm pretty much
| out of the market for 4k screens on laptops these days. Also
| had to switch to a big phone and crank up the text size.
| numpad0 wrote:
| 4K on laptops should be a bless, not pain, with recent enough
| Windows - you shouldn't need to try enlarging text by
| lowering output resolution. That was a Windows quirk that
| everything assumes 96dpi regardless of dpi.
| driverdan wrote:
| I'm 40 and the difference is very obvious to me. I have no
| interest in any low DPI screens.
| slantyyz wrote:
| 50+ with bad eyes, and I think the difference between 4K and
| 1080p is still very noticeable on a 15.6" laptop, in terms of
| sharpness.
|
| Having said that, most people probably set the text
| magnification on a 4K screen to be the same as a 1080p
| screen, so any real estate gains tend to be a wash.
|
| Since getting presbyopia several years ago, I had single
| vision glasses prescribed for using a computer. So when I am
| using a computer, as long as the screens are around 21" to
| 27" away from my eyes, everything is sharp. It sucks having
| an extra pair of glasses (and remembering to swap them when
| not using a computer), but I would go nuts if I didn't have
| them.
| ayushnix wrote:
| > Having said that, most people probably set the text
| magnification on a 4K screen to be the same as a 1080p
| screen, so any real estate gains tend to be a wash.
|
| If someone's buying a laptop with a 4K display for real
| estate, he's probably misinformed. You buy a 4K display on
| a laptop for the pristine ~293 PPI vs a mediocre ~146 PPI
| on a 1080p display which would look even worse considering
| it would need fractional scaling while the 4K display would
| work with integer scaling.
| slantyyz wrote:
| > 1080p display which would look even worse considering
| it would need fractional scaling
|
| That depends on the OS though, right? I don't know about
| Linux or Mac, but I'm pretty sure that if you scale on
| Windows, you're still running at the native resolution,
| but the UI elements get scaled. Nothing should look
| weird. At least that has been my experience on Windows...
| outside of apps that don't follow Microsoft's scaling
| guidelines.
| ayushnix wrote:
| Yes, that might be the case, but I don't want to be
| dependent on the implementation differences of different
| operating systems.
|
| I like Apple's approach in this case. Enforce the usage
| of HiDPI displays by default with at least ~200 PPI which
| needs integer scaling. Instead of trying to work around
| the issue, they simply bypass it, which is what I'll do
| in the future.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Even at 1080p, I have to go into accessibility settings to
| enlarge text.
|
| 1080p is about the resolution of the screen, not the size of
| anything rendered on the screen.
| pessimizer wrote:
| A resolution far higher than the resolution of the eyes of
| someone with bad eyesight, at a normal distance.
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| 1440p is the way to go. 4K is harder to sustain and you start
| needing some scaling as well
| jcelerier wrote:
| a lot of computers being sold today are still 1366x768
| Koshkin wrote:
| ... and 4 GB of RAM
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Nothing wrong with that for a lightweight Linux
| dev/browsing machine. More than that just goes unused.
| sofixa wrote:
| Depends on your browsing habits. I often end up with
| hundreds of Chrome tabs, which can easily result in 16GB
| of RAM being consumed by it alone. Thankfully there are
| plugins to automatically suspend unused tabs which help
| with that.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| I read this workflow a lot and it absolutely boggles my
| mind how people can have some many tabs open. You can't
| possibly be able to make sense of all those tabs at once.
| And if your not using the tab, why not just bookmark it?
| Seems the only purpose of 100+ tabs is wasting ram.
| jcelerier wrote:
| I have something like 80 tabs open from my morning alone
| lol, 30/35 are some bibliography quest about a fairly
| specific topic, a dozen about the various approaches to
| fast sin & cos approximations, a few are mails & social
| networks
| sofixa wrote:
| I have bookmarks, Pocket for "read one day", Raindrop for
| more advanced "might be useful one day" bookmarks. I
| still work on multiple projects, for work or personal,
| more or less simultaneously ( as in the same week(s)),
| and until I'm fully finished with something i don't close
| the tabs related to it. Some things just get
| blocked/stuck/lose their priority, for which case i do
| the occasional cleaning.
|
| So just the stuff I'm more or less currently on, plus
| articles to read "soon", plus mandatory work related tabs
| (Jira, etc.) and it quickly explodes to 10GB+ of RAM.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| With a browser that allows customization, you can
| configure vertical tabs to fill up excess wide screen
| real estate. Then you can credibly manage dozens of tabs.
| sodality2 wrote:
| As someone with a laptop like this, dev work in certain
| situations (compiling heavy code, like systems languages)
| is essentially unworkable. The ram is actually 3.33 GB
| (memory is shared with GPU) and the CPU's are often dual-
| core. Visual studio code escapes alright (somehow), so
| maybe for light web dev work. But when my rust code takes
| 8 minutes to compile and 20 seconds on a PC, it almost
| makes it easier to compile once on my desktop and rsync
| it over (so subsequent compiles are faster b/c
| incremental compilation). This is just the reality of a
| low end system, it's competent at web browsing and note
| taking, and surprisingly I can last about 6-8 hours on a
| ~$400 laptop. I certainly didn't expect a compiling
| powerhouse, but I can literally install ripgrep in 26
| seconds and it takes about 7 or 8 _minutes_ on the
| laptop.
|
| TLDR: Don't use with systems languages. Rust takes ages
| to compile and I have almost switched to learning go just
| because of it. Of course, I am expecting way too much out
| of a laptop (systems programming? really?) but I didn't
| expect it to be so terribly slow.
| abledon wrote:
| Isn't 1080p way better for battery life + its mostly
| indistinguishable in pixels? unless you are like, looking
| really close at the pixels? remember its 1080p inside a 15"
| monitor, not a 24" monitor a PC has.
| jagger27 wrote:
| It's like no one here has used a MacBook before. They've been
| putting 2560 by 1600 displays in 13" MacBooks for what, a
| decade now?
| bluedino wrote:
| Mac OS doesn't have all the goofy issues that Linux and
| Windows do when using hidpi/4k whatever screens.
| sz4kerto wrote:
| Windows has practically perfect hidpi nowadays. Also on
| moderately hidpi screens (eg 4K 32"), MacOS is extremely
| blurry.
| as1mov wrote:
| Eh not really, I've used the hidpi MacBooks for work, it
| doesn't really make a big difference.
|
| I can tell the difference between a 1440p/4k and a 1080p
| screen, but it doesn't bother me to the point where I won't
| buy machines which don't have it, it's just a nice bonus.
| SheinhardtWigCo wrote:
| Very distinguishable after daily use of a MacBook Pro.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Yeah ok but this is a computer for hackers, not people who
| decide what shade grey to make text on a website.
| rsynnott wrote:
| Realistically the main appeal of very high resolution
| laptop screens is text, not images. The people doing
| professional colour work typically aren't using any sort
| of laptop screen.
| noahtallen wrote:
| High DPI is great for text. It's easier to read and way
| more crisp. High DPI is about edges and lines and details
| (like text), not colors!
| chrisseaton wrote:
| High resolution is particularly useful for people who
| work on text all day - so hackers.
|
| I don't know if you're confusing it with high dynamic
| range? This isn't about colour.
| downWidOutaFite wrote:
| My 16" Macbook Pro's display is certainly beautiful but the
| battery life is pathetic. If lower resolution really did
| save battery then I think I would make the tradeoff,
| especially since everybody runs the resolution scaled down
| from 3072x1920 so the only thing you gain from it is the
| subpixel sharpness.
| ngngngng wrote:
| I have a 4k x1 Carbon and I can confirm that it's dumb. I
| would prefer the battery life but also the iGPU isn't
| powerful enough to run an external monitor while the display
| is using 4k so I have to scale it down for that anyway.
| akvadrako wrote:
| Maybe older generations weren't powerful enough, but I use
| the 7th gen (2019) to run a 2nd 4K external display and it
| works fine.
|
| 4K is a little overkill for 14", but I wouldn't consider a
| laptop below 3K. Definitionally not dumb.
| ngngngng wrote:
| What OS are you using? I installed PopOS onto mine and
| maybe something there is the issue. We have the same
| model and mine is maxed on specs but whenever I'm in 4k
| and using an external monitor it becomes unbearably slow.
| akvadrako wrote:
| I run Ubuntu. Works fine in windows too.
| okasaki wrote:
| I wonder, can users who want better battery life on their
| 4k laptop just run the screen in 1920x1080?
| ndiddy wrote:
| My biggest problem is the aspect ratio, on a laptop 16:9
| simply is not enough vertical space. Hopefully Clevo will
| realize this at some point and make a laptop for System76
| with a 16:10 or 3:2 screen.
| speedgoose wrote:
| This laptop is clearly not designed for battery life though.
| The battery is tiny inside.
| MisterTea wrote:
| If you spend a lot of time reading/typing text on a computer,
| hiDPI helps as the text is a lot sharper. Though honestly I
| don't care as much and find that 1080 is an acceptable
| resolution for smaller screens (<= 22").
| ohazi wrote:
| I have good eyes and strongly prefer wqhd (2560x1440) over
| 1080p on my 14" Thinkpad, because I can just barely lay out
| two windows side by side without stupid websites like Gmail
| and JIRA getting too narrow, using my scale factor of choice.
| With 1080p, I turn off scaling and it just doesn't work. Full
| screen is too big, anything less than 2/3 is too narrow.
|
| I can easily get 10 hours of battery life with light use,
| sometimes more (my system idles at around 5W unless I crank
| up the brightness to excessive levels).
|
| 4k (UHD) on a 14" display is excessive, in my opinion. I
| don't know what the power consumption is like, but at the
| scaling that I prefer, the layout ends up looking identical
| to my wqhd setup, only crisper. That would seem like a waste
| of power. Shame all the recent T-series Thinkpads have gone
| down this route.
| zwayhowder wrote:
| This! The wonderful world of reflowing webpages that
| assumes anything less than 1080p is a mobile is so
| frustrating. I too find WQHD a good fit for my 14" Thinpad.
| Koshkin wrote:
| Should be good up to 24"
| kazinator wrote:
| It's a 15" screen! For 4K to even begin to make sense, you need
| a 40" diagonal, and with your face about a foot away from it.
| (For a more detailed explanation, ask a local fifth grader.)
| ohazi wrote:
| 40" diagonal seems a bit extreme.
|
| I think my 27" 4k display is perfect. My dad has slightly
| worse eyes and prefers his 32" 4k display, which I find
| noticably grainier but perfectly serviceable.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| Guest42 wrote:
| Would ordering one of these with 32gb of ram lead to a
| significant decrease in battery performance?
| neogodless wrote:
| Looks like the increase from 8GB to 32GB is going from ~3W to
| 12W of power consumption.
|
| The CPU likely consumes 30-45W depending on configuration.
|
| So it's not trivial, all things considered.
| kcb wrote:
| Wouldn't that only really apply while doing intensive memory
| accessing. Something that you would probably only be doing a
| very small percentage of time.
| fnord77 wrote:
| no - simply refreshing memory state costs power. The DRAM
| memory refresh cycle happens about every 60ms. In the
| background, memory cells are constantly read and rewritten.
|
| Power consumption adds up pretty quickly.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_refresh
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| CPUS or SOCs these days can achieve quite low power states
| when in idle, like aingle digit watts.
|
| Where do you get the 12w from?
| Guest42 wrote:
| Thanks for followup, I was curious if the ram was allocated
| in blocks if sections could go unused.
|
| Right now I have 16gb and it's been great and I generally
| don't put much pressure on it (except for some occasional
| Android Studio virtualizing).
|
| However, it seems as though software resource usage has a
| tendency to creep up over time so it seemed like more RAM
| would be a safe option. I also tend to use the computer
| more lightly when it's unplugged.
|
| I don't know much about hardware so all input is
| appreciated.
| neogodless wrote:
| Just a preliminary web search.
|
| Here's one example:
|
| https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/how-
| much...
|
| > As a rule of thumb, however, you want to allocate around
| 3 watts of power for every 8GB of DDR3 or DDR4 memory.
| High-performance memory such as Ballistix(r) parts can draw
| more power, especially if you overclock the voltage beyond
| XMP settings.
|
| Similar numbers here for slower DDR4-2133.
|
| https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-
| core-i7-5960x-has...
| luke2m wrote:
| I hope System76 adds a trackpoint/ pointing stick to their
| laptops or maybe the launch 2.
| m0zg wrote:
| 1080p in 2021, targeting a "tech" audience? Good luck with that.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Most people who do tech work in the sense of using a computer
| for most part of their days such as software devs (I hope) use
| external keyboards and screens and mice anyway, 99% of the
| time. AC adapter plugged in. With the WFH trend, this will be a
| growing trend.
|
| I unplug the AC adapter and monitor to go over to someone's
| desk or hold a presentation perhaps a few times a month at
| most. I would not want to write code a whole day on even the
| best laptop keyboard and the most crispy 4K laptop screen.
|
| There is a surprising lack of choice for laptops targeting this
| mode of use though. For example the $3k Dell precision I have
| now doesn't like being used plugged in for extended periods.
| They put a category of battery in them that swells when heated.
| So if you, like me, leave it on for say a year at your desk
| (This happened during the pandemic) - it expands and the
| keyboard and trackpad stops working.
|
| When you go for a "workstation" class laptop, the manufacturers
| have crammed so much perf into an impossibly small package,
| that it's screaming loud and glowing hot. Just make it twice as
| thick with half the battery size and I'll buy it.
| noncoml wrote:
| I had a NUC(NUC6i7KYK) that no matter what I tried, I couldn't
| make WiFi work reliably. Tried Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, tries
| upgrading the driver blobs from Intel, nothing worked!
|
| Then one time for fun I tried Pop!_OS, and lo and behold, never
| had a problem with WiFi again!
|
| Good job System76!
| stakkur wrote:
| I love the idea of System76. But the low budget keyboards on
| their rebranded hardware don't do it for me.
|
| I heard they planned to manufacture their own machines recently,
| but I'd rather buy a ThinkPad for the awesome keyboard than
| gamble on whatever keyboard they're using now.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| Honestly it does seem that a halo tax like Apple's is already
| being added.
| ksec wrote:
| One thing I notice in this and Framework's laptop is how much
| space we are trading for upgradability. Both SO-DIMM and M2 are
| massive. I guess for 2TB option you need M2 2280 rather than the
| 2242 variant. But SO-DIMM is just huge, and you need two of them.
| Compared to M1 which has LPDDR5 within the package, and SSD
| Controller Built in.
|
| We need something that combined the Dual Channel Support within
| one Slot and at least half the width of SO-DIMM.
| [deleted]
| arnaudsm wrote:
| This is an huge deal : the 5700U is faster than the Mac M1 at the
| same wattage
| https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MH...
| hu3 wrote:
| Now imagine if AMD could also use 5nm like Apple.
|
| Chip shortage is hurting a lot.
| mercutio2 wrote:
| If you have embarrassingly parallel loads, sure.
|
| But: CPU Single Thread Rating Apple
| M1 - 3,778 AMD 5700U - 2,636
|
| suggests that "is faster" is going to depend on your
| perspective. Most loads _I_ care about are single threaded.
|
| The 5700U is 8% faster on a synthetic multi-core benchmark vs.
| 30% slower on a single core benchmark. I know which CPU I'd
| choose if I had a choice.
| borgbean wrote:
| I also doubt the AMD chip got those results anywhere near the
| 15w TDP. I didn't find concrete numbers on the 5700U, though.
|
| I would take an AMD chip over the M1 in a desktop any day,
| but not in a laptop.
| ksec wrote:
| It is even worst considering
|
| 1. The Max boost clock of 5700U is 4.3Ghz. Compared to M1 at
| 3.2Ghz
|
| 2. The TDP of 5700 is Typical TDP, it doesn't actually take
| into account of boost. Not that it matters in a single thread
| performance comparison because it wont use 15W per single
| core, but still relevant info to keep in mind.
|
| On the other hand this is a Zen 2 on 7nm compared to M1 on
| 5nm. The Gap would be less if it was on Zen 3 and 5nm. But
| even then my guess it would something like 3000, still quite
| a bit to go to catch up with 3800.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| We're lucky now to be in the ballpark.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| Woah. Nice quote about "CPU Single Thread Rating". Can you
| share a source?
|
| I can understand why there is this real push to reverse
| engineer the M1 platform to get Linux running on it! The
| efficiency per watt is amazing.
| peter_retief wrote:
| At 2000 usd it is too expensive for me.
|
| Is this a normal price for a new laptop?
|
| I am in the market for a new laptop and am a linux user.
| approxim8ion wrote:
| depends what you want to do with it, I guess.
|
| I have a laptop running Linux that cost me $400 in 2016.
| Similar spec is $600 now. I'm fairly sure I can get by with
| what I do (YouTube, streaming, documents, web programming)
| fairly well with it.
| lenkite wrote:
| Display is still a boring old 1920x1080 FHD. Once your eyes get
| used to the Macbook Retina display, it's difficult to downgrade.
| melbourne_mat wrote:
| Tough sell given the M1 MacBook air is $800
| stereoradonc wrote:
| The DIY laptop (fixable) are also here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28375184
| winter_blue wrote:
| The price is a bit too high (as always with System76). Last year,
| for the same price ($1,199) on sale, I bought a ASUS Zephyrus G14
| with a Ryzen 4900HS and RTX 2060. Right now, you get it (for a
| bit more) with a 5900HS and RTX 3060.
|
| Both the 5900HS and the 4900HS will beat the low-wattage 5700U in
| performance handily. The G14 has a 76 Wh, so despite the
| "higher"-power (35 Watt) CPU, it'll still get a LOT of battery
| life.
| teekert wrote:
| System76 is nice, in this podcast the CEO is interviewed: [0].
| He is dedicated to transparency, open source and privacy.
| They're worth some extra money to me. Although I'm still
| waiting for their custom designed, all aluminium top of the
| line laptop :)
|
| [0]: https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/linux-
| unplugged/id6875...
| cassepipe wrote:
| Is this custom design all-aluminum design on their road map?
| I'd buy it, I'd order it next year and pay right now even.
| The only thing preventing from buying one of their laptop is
| I am wary of all plastic laptops that break apart after five
| years although they are working perfectly. Basically I just
| want a MacBook that runs Linux perfectly.
| schaefer wrote:
| I'll briefly share the link to much more detailed system
| documentation. Including tear down/repair instructions:
|
| https://tech-docs.system76.com/models/pang11/README.html
| acomjean wrote:
| Thats a pretty nice summary. Its pretty expandable
| (ram/drives/wireless), and has a lot of ports.
| mattl wrote:
| I like their desktops, but their previous laptops have been such
| painful generic Clevo machines.
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| What are system76 keyboards and trackpads like? I wish I could
| touch one before having to decide whether to buy
| john_yaya wrote:
| I have a System76 Gazelle. The trackpad tends to freak out when
| I reboot, issuing random clicks and cursor jitters - so I
| usually have to reboot again, or deactivate the trackpad in
| Ubuntu. Multiple firmware and OS updates haven't fixed this.
| masterof0 wrote:
| +1 on this, I got mine 2 years back, together with the fan
| noises, this was the "features" that annoyed me most. Also
| the Gazelle feels cheap, the keyboard is not terrible, but is
| not great either. I wish they they have a better quality
| case, a better keyboard, and a brighter screen panel. I have
| not tried the other models, I hope to get my hands on the
| Darter Pro, it seems promising. I think what System76 is
| doing is pretty cool, I just wish their products were more
| competitive.
| trashface wrote:
| I have an oryp5 (2019). The keyboard is ok. The numeric pad is
| annoying though, as others have commented. I definitely prefer
| my old mac which didn't have one.
|
| The touchpad is awful. Way too sensitive to palm touches, even
| in windows - so it isn't just a linux driver issue. This might
| be related to the fact that its off center but I think its just
| lousy hardware. In linux I've tweaked both the touchpad area
| (reduced) and threshold settings but its still barely usable
| and I palm-touch constantly unless I hold my hand at an awkward
| angle.
|
| Maybe this pangolin is better but I looked at the overhead
| picture of the keyboard and it looks almost identical to my
| oryp5. The touchpad may be upgraded hardware, so I don't know.
|
| I love what system 76 is doing, PopOS is great, but I really
| wish they'd get off these Clevo laptops. The hardware just
| isn't very good, IMO.
| slategruen wrote:
| > The touchpad is awful
|
| Have you tried it with Wayland?
| trashface wrote:
| No.
| hellcow wrote:
| I bought a system76 years ago wanting to support their open
| source work. Maybe it's changed since (?), but mine had a Clevo
| shell which meant it had a bad keyboard and a terrible
| trackpad, with a cheap plastic feel and lots of flex. It's the
| first laptop I ever replaced within a month...
|
| The keyboard was later recalled, so I swapped it out with a new
| one they sent me which wasn't cut to the correct dimensions and
| never fit (bubbling up in the center and leaving a gap around
| the keyboard for things to fall into).
| zingar wrote:
| How's the trackpad? You'll pry my MacBook from my cold dead hands
| unless you can give me a trackpad that is as good.
| megous wrote:
| Trackpad mechanics is just something to get used to, just like
| switching to a keyboard with a different layout.
| Annoying/frustrating at first, after a week you can care less.
|
| It's like the comparatively fucked up natural scrolling on
| macOS, when coming from windows, or whatever it's called. Your
| brain will accommodate.
| mybrid wrote:
| The thing about Lenovo is one can get a 4 year, on site, service
| contract for less than $500. If a keyboard key breaks, no
| problem, they swap it and come to your house.
|
| Over the hears I've had monitor pixels die. They don't care,
| they'll replace it.
|
| And unlike with Apple Lenovo doesn't mind if you replace the hard
| drive or other components yourself, the warranty is not voided.
| protomyth wrote:
| I wish a person could order one of these without the numeric
| keypad. I deeply hate being off-center to the screen when typing
| on these larger portables.
| p1necone wrote:
| I can't bear the thought of being forced to play roguelikes
| suboptimally.
| 83457 wrote:
| I used to use keypad all the time so when I got first laptop
| for work having one was my preference. I regretted that
| decision as the keyboard was more narrow than it otherwise
| needed to be.
|
| On a side note, I love the CM Storm Quick Fire TK keyboard I
| have with brown switches. It has no arrow/home vertical area,
| instead when you turn the numpad off the keys act like that
| slice. I wish more keyboards were like it. Not sure why they
| aren't.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| My wish for a laptop is one with the trackpad above the
| keyboard instead of below and the keyboard at the bottom edge
| of the case. I really don't like wrist-wrests on keyboards, but
| with a laptop, I have no choice.
| petepete wrote:
| The only laptops I know with the keyboard at the front of the
| base are a couple of Asus models, the Zephyrus and the
| Zenbook. Both have the touchpad to the right of the keyboard
| and a second screen above.
|
| Definitely an acquired taste and not the most portable of
| devices.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| Agreed. The least they could do, if a numpad really is
| necessary, is put something of equal size on the left side. A
| macro pad would be novel, or even just a left numpad so that
| right-hand mouse users could enter numbers at the same time.
| smegger001 wrote:
| i wonder if splitting the alphabet portion of the keyboard
| down the middle and putting the numpad in between would work.
| It would look like some unholy abomination but may be more
| ergonmoic
| bartvk wrote:
| I actually have this setup on my desk. Meaning, I have a
| Kinesis Freestyle 2 (split keyboard) and in between,
| there's an Apple trackpad.
| reaperducer wrote:
| They could do what Apple did 20 years ago: Make them modular.
|
| You used to be able to pop the trackball out from the right
| side of the keyboard area, slide the keys to the right, and
| then re-insert the trackball into the left side.
|
| Do the same with a num pad, instead of a trackball. And for
| people who don't want the num pad, make available half-width
| blank inserts to occupy the space on both sides.
| nostrademons wrote:
| I have a 2013 Pangolin and the keypad & touchpad are the worst
| parts. They're decent machines otherwise, but the off-center
| keyboard and touchpad with no tactile feedback make it very
| hard to navigate around the interface. Looks like they might've
| fixed the touchpad at least in this reboot.
| baktubi wrote:
| What! I can't imagine using a keyboard without a numpad. Any
| numerical entry is wayyyy easier using numpad!
| johnzim wrote:
| I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. The trackpad
| is even off to the left to accommodate it.
|
| I'm not a fan of symmetry for symmetry's sake, but I do think
| some affordances for the human body might be a good idea. How
| do southpaws enjoy this keyboard setup?
|
| The ergonomics of laptops are bad enough without stuff like
| this.
| yumraj wrote:
| >The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it.
|
| Yes, that is the first thing I notice. Any laptop with an
| off-center trackpad goes in the do-not-buy list.
| istingray wrote:
| Same here. I imagine hating it every time I open the
| laptop.
| unicornporn wrote:
| Same here. Saw the lead image with and immediately thought:
| no buy. No fancy specs in the world can make me accept bad
| ergonomics.
| lincolnq wrote:
| I'd expect that the ergo costs of using a laptop at all
| (short key travel, screen down from eye level) would
| swamp the additional cost of having the keyboard off
| center. After all, you can just crane your neck down and
| sideways instead of just down :).
|
| Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work (who
| cares about ergo) should invest in an external keyboard
| and monitor.
| mrinterweb wrote:
| It sounds like you're advocating for a desktop system. I
| usually dock my laptop, but I do like the flexibility of
| detaching and sitting on the couch. When I'm using my
| laptop, as a laptop, I like to feel comfortable. To me
| numpads on laptops have negative value.
| yumraj wrote:
| > Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work
| (who cares about ergo) should invest in an external
| keyboard and monitor.
|
| FWIW, I've been using a 15" MBP as my primary dev/work
| machine for over a decade and I've just become used to
| it. Tried external monitor, keyboard a few times, but it
| just doesn't work for me anymore. I mostly run in high
| res mode, as opposed to the scaled _default_ mode and it
| works well. This is also why the 13" laptops are not an
| option for me, am eagerly waiting for the 16" MBP
| _fingers crossed_.
| overgard wrote:
| Might just be a personal preference, I have two laptops (one
| of them a system 76) with numpads because I highly prefer
| having them. Macbook keyboards without them really annoy me.
| Obviously peoples mileage will vary.
| lathiat wrote:
| As this thread is highlighting, in my experience there are
| two kinds of keyboard users. Those that love their numberpad,
| and those that never use it. There seems to rarely be people
| in the middle. On desktops it mostly doesn't matter because
| you can shift the keyboard over relative to the screen. On
| laptops this translates into people completely loathing or
| loving the laptop entirely :)
|
| Personally in the never use it camp, and hate these offset
| laptops. Sometimes its because people do a lot of number data
| entry spreadsheet style, I can understand that case a little
| more, however even people that mostly type text I've seen for
| example will like to enter IP addresses on the number pad for
| no obvious reason. God speed IPv6 adoption :)
|
| On the other hand laptops are terrible for ergonomics and
| daily usage anyway, it's unfortunately we've moved so far
| into laptops from desktops and it doesn't seem so common to
| dock them and use an external keyboard.. to my feeling mostly
| because the screen ends up being too small once you push it
| back to use an external keyboard so then you need an external
| monitor and the cost and complexity goes up.
| darkwater wrote:
| > On the other hand laptops are terrible for ergonomics and
| daily usage anyway, it's unfortunately we've moved so far
| into laptops from desktops and it doesn't seem so common to
| dock them and use an external keyboard..
|
| Especially considering that nowadays "docking" is pluggin
| in an USB-C cable from a monitor that: - is used as a large
| external display - powers and recharges the laptop - acts
| as an USB hub, with external keyboard, mouse and webcam.
|
| If I want I can go outside to have a meeting and when I
| want to code, I go back to my home office. And when I
| commute to the work office, I can work on the train. And
| when I get there, I plug it in the same setup as home. Next
| step would be having all of this wireless but it's already
| near perfect IME.
|
| I just described my setup actually :)
| sam0x17 wrote:
| I think a lot of people just haven't learned to touch-type
| the top number row. It was required for me to graduate to
| the 6th grade in 2002 to get at least 35 WPM / 90% accuracy
| on the typing test, and there were a bunch of numbers in
| there so using the type row naturally was an important part
| of this. I suspect people who have had similar experiences
| would never use the numpad. The context switch alone causes
| huge amounts of downtime.
| trashtester wrote:
| For me it's the other way. I have no issues embedding
| nubers in the touch typing when typing normal text, but
| if there are only numbers, accuracy will go down, unless
| I bring my center down to the asdf line, which slows me
| down a lot.
|
| I also did practice my musscle memory for the numpad in a
| similar way to touch as part of typing scientific data
| (back in the 90s). After a couple of weeks of that, my
| speed on the numpad would be at least twice as high as
| when typing numbers on the main keyboard. Also, accuracy
| was high enough that I could reliably trust the output
| even when not looking at the result (very close to 100%),
| which is critical for many use cases that involve
| numbers.
|
| Even if I spend 99% of my time on the regular keyboard
| now, if I have to spend more than 5mins typing only
| numbers, I will feel really frustrated without a numpad.
|
| Then again, I tend to use the laptop keyboards quite
| little anyway, mostly only while travelling or when in a
| meeting room. In the office, there is a dock and at home
| I use a desktop.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| > On desktops it mostly doesn't matter because you can
| shift the keyboard over relative to the screen.
|
| It does matter. The arrow key cluster and numpad take a lot
| of space, which means the left side of the keyboard (where
| asdf / your left hand are) and your mouse have to be very
| far from each other. This leads to either putting the
| keyboard's letter key section in the center, making your
| mouse be uncomfortably far to the right, or having your
| mouse in a natural position for your right hand, leaving
| your left hand way out to the left. Over time this can (and
| did, to me) cause posture / muscle balance issues.
|
| Currently I'm using the Microsoft Sculpt Wireless keyboard.
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-
| ww/accessories/products/keyboar.... The main keyboard with
| letters and two extra columns just to the right of the
| letters (with no gap) means everything can be positioned
| perfectly. The wireless numpad is there for when you need
| to use it. It's a very overpriced product at $100 but works
| wonderfully.
|
| Also, in college I had a tiny desk with a cabinet
| underneath its left side, so my chair was offset to 60/40%
| of the way to the right. With a full size desktop keyboard
| with numpad, there literally wasn't enough space for my
| mouse, unless I moved the keyboard very far to the left.
| Thus causing the issues I mentioned above. That's what got
| me into tiny mechanical keyboards :) I'll admit it's a
| somewhat niche case, but there are probably still many
| millions of people in the world with a similar desk setup
| to that for whom a full size desktop keyboard is an
| unhealthy option.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| Agree, it's easy to carry around a plug-in numeric keypad if
| you really need one.
| Klonoar wrote:
| >I have no idea who thought this was a good idea.
|
| You and many others probably know this, but figure it's
| helpful context for others who might stumble through this
| thread: it's not necessarily all on System76 as to why that
| shell is used, since the shells themselves are (IIRC)
| rebranded Clevo shells still.
|
| i.e I would suspect they're making use of what they can
| reasonably acquire to sell.
|
| (The offset aspect would drive me mad as well)
| caslon wrote:
| Southpaw here! I'd never buy a laptop without a number pad.
| The track pad being off-center is _also_ good.
|
| Gaming? 78462 make for the best movement, and the number pad
| also has seven non-numerical buttons to bind things to. It
| also puts your index finger _right_ next to lENTER, which is
| _so_ useful for games that make use of it.
|
| Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX programs
| to make for a better IDE than an IDE.
|
| Calculating? _So_ nice to have an ergonomic numerical input.
| amelius wrote:
| Ok, so the conclusion is that the keyboard should be
| customizable.
| reilly3000 wrote:
| Yes. I don't know what trade offs that would entail or if
| that should be something the user or factory would do,
| but yes, absolutely.
| caslon wrote:
| No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always
| better. You can _always_ customize a keyboard with
| minimal effort, unless you 're on a really bad operating
| system, like any of the proprietary ones.
| evilduck wrote:
| Hard disagree. I dont need more keys, I need better keys.
| More keys just means more reaching and more strain. I use
| the Preonic and would love to see layer keys on a laptop
| instead of a stupidly big spacebar nobody ever uses
| wasting so much real estate.
|
| I think the Framework laptop is our best shot at it
| though.
| Fnoord wrote:
| > No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always
| better.
|
| Not really. There was a time where laptops, especially
| 15", had front speakers. If the choice is that or numpad,
| I pick front speakers. Its a bummer smartphones don't
| have them anymore these days. More keys might seem like a
| no-brainer, but its always also less is more and keys you
| don't use are useless keys. As power user, it seems
| (re)binding of keys is in order anyway.
|
| 1080p and numpad is a downgrade from my MBP 2015. It also
| doesn't specify much about the AMD graphics card. I'd
| rather get a modular laptop instead, but with 1440p
| minimum.
|
| The thing with a trackpad centered to left (let alone its
| gonna be as good as a Magic Trackpad 2 by Apple from 2015
| and onward), is that if you use your right hand your arm
| can get hurt if you let it rest. And, you should let your
| arms rest. Also, the arm is in the way. Apple had a neat
| solution to it: large(r) trackpad (though I prefer the
| previous one, centered).
|
| But I was never in the market for this because if I order
| something like this from USA I get to pay a large amount
| of taxes on top of it cause the price never includes tax.
| Let me know if its available in Europe and I'll have a
| look, but the above remain serious concerns so I doubt
| it.
| caslon wrote:
| My laptop has front speakers & a number pad. Keys you
| don't use need to be rebound until you use them.
| SilverRed wrote:
| The iphone has a front speaker. The top one is a
| loudspeaker and a normal phone one. And they tune it so
| when in landscape I don't really notice the difference
| between the front and outwards speaker.
|
| Phone speakers have come a long way since samsung was
| putting them on the back of the phones..
| least wrote:
| More buttons isn't always better because there's a
| limited range of motion that is reasonable for someone to
| type with. Having a number pad on a laptop keyboard
| reinforces bad ergonomics because you either need to
| shift your entire body to the left and have your screen
| off center or you have a constant and pretty severe
| lateral deviation in your right hand.
|
| As for customizing a keyboard with minimal effort... it's
| actually easier to do that with MacOS and Windows than it
| is in linux, in my experience. Sure, you can do basic key
| remapping really easily in linux with xmodmap but if you
| want to do anything complicated with the built in
| keyboard, MacOS has Karabiner Elements which is far
| better than any of the built in or custom keyboard
| software like xcape or xkeysnail. Similarly on Windows,
| AutoHotKey is much easier to do complex customizations as
| well. I haven't really tried Kmonad but that is cross-
| platform so it wouldn't really be considered an advantage
| to linux.
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| Yes the numpad comes in useful when I'm calculating all day
| ImprovedSilence wrote:
| I have a nice ten-keyless mech keyboard that I love to
| use for programming. However I really do miss having a
| number pad more than I thought I would.
| Haegin wrote:
| If it's programmable you could set up a layer with a
| number pad on it. I've done that with mine and basically
| never use the actual number keys now.
| bbojan wrote:
| Yup, I did this and it's great. I also ended up assigning
| the thumb key to 0, since I've noticed it's used more
| often than other digits (and also you have to fit it
| somewhere, since the other ones are in a 3x3 grid).
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| If you were a real hacker you'd use it for playing
| roguelikes in the terminal.
| pmontra wrote:
| Yeah, that was the last time I used a keypad. I really
| hate mine. I don't have a use case for it and because of
| it I have to slide the laptop to the right, to align the
| keyboard with my vertical axis of symmetry.
|
| I understand that many people need it and many others
| don't. I wish manufacturers had an option for keyboards
| without the number pad. I'd pay an extra for it.
| suprfsat wrote:
| hjklyubn
| viraptor wrote:
| That would take over the usual [k]ick, [l]ook, etc.
| luc_ wrote:
| irony over text..?
| Cederfjard wrote:
| > Programming? Bind the buttons to commonly-used UNIX
| programs to make for a better IDE than an IDE.
|
| Mind sharing some examples of your bindings?
| caslon wrote:
| My favorite (and the one I find myself getting the most
| joy from using) is /, which I have bound to tangle and
| weave my currently-open project (dbus, yay) into /tmp,
| apply a stylesheet to the output of it, determine
| languages used within, embed Emscripten-compiled
| interpreters for the languages being used into the
| generated pages (its file system API is incredible, "I
| Can't Believe It's Not UNIX!"-worthy), and launch a
| Mozilla instance so I can interactively play with/debug
| my programs while reading their documentation in the same
| window.
|
| If this sounds like a convoluted REPL with fancier in-
| line documentation, you're _kind of_ right. It 's
| basically just interactive and automated literate
| programming, though.
|
| The rest of my bindings range from pretty simple (running
| an open project's tests, displaying results from the last
| 10 commits, etc.) to significantly more complex. I have a
| few different xkb layouts depending on what I'm doing,
| and a few different languages get dedicated ones, but for
| the ones I most-commonly use, they all share one.
| Cederfjard wrote:
| Thanks!
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| Another big one is Blender; I don't think I could use it
| without a numpad.
| slezyr wrote:
| You can, there is a setting for such cases
|
| https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/editors/prefere
| nce...
| grifball wrote:
| You can buy a usb numpad for blender. I did this to save
| money on a mechanical keyboard.
| Shorel wrote:
| Just put the damn thing in the middle.
| stonecharioteer wrote:
| I'd actually be into that. I come from the split
| keyboards world. Put your god damned numpad in the middle
| and give me ortholinear keys on each side. I will throw
| money at you today.
| atatatat wrote:
| > I come from the split keyboards world.
|
| What terrifying place is that? (I'm just poking fun, but
| seriously: where?)
| rgoulter wrote:
| Generally, hobbyist mechanical keyboards that you
| assemble by buying or fabricating a PCB, and doing a bit
| of soldering. Most designs have relatively easy
| soldering.
|
| Some hobbyist shops may offer assembly services. If you
| don't want to solder, ZSA labs have a "moonlander"
| keyboard that looks quite nice, for a premium price.
|
| If you're not put off by soldering, then some popular
| split keyboards would be the Corne (also known as
| "crkbd"), Kyria, lily58, Sofle.
|
| There are also designs which are closer to a normal
| keyboard, like the ultimate hacking keyboard. (But,
| personally, I don't understand why you'd spend so much
| money on a keyboard and have it be asymmetric).
| masklinn wrote:
| Surely the origins of split keyboards are ergo spaces not
| hobbyist?
| [deleted]
| least wrote:
| Split keyboards have been around for quite a while. You
| can even see the Kinesis Advantage keyboard featured in
| films like Flubber and Men in Black and plenty of
| companies have made ergonomic keyboards.
|
| I think there's a sort of hobbyist renaissance going on
| right now, though. Plenty of new keyboards are being
| designed and built because it's more accessible than ever
| to design your own pcb or if not that to get someone
| else's design printed, which along with the general
| mechanical keyboard enthusiast market, has given people a
| wealth of options to choose from.
| Symbiote wrote:
| I maintain a gallery of split keyboards for people to see
| what's available: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-
| keyboards/
|
| Discussed here previously:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311
| jjoonathan wrote:
| I love numeric keypads. I don't have to type in big chunks of
| numbers very often (OCR and GPIB go a long way) but when I
| do, numeric pads make me hate life a lot less.
| stavros wrote:
| I have a custom keyboard I designed, and I configured it so
| that the tilde key turns the right-hand side into a numpad
| (ie the yuiohjkl etc keys). It's great, no need for extra
| unused buttons and very convenient to use (as the left hand
| is typically not used when typing on the num pad).
| kej wrote:
| I used to have a Sony laptop like this, where NumLock
| turned the uiojkl keys into 456123, so you could use them
| (along with 789 above them) as a number pad. It was a
| clever design and I wish more laptops offered it.
| innocenat wrote:
| I thought almost all laptop before 2010 is like this
| though. It was normal back in the day.
| Koshkin wrote:
| I prefer the hidden one.
|
| https://www.dummies.com/computers/pcs/the-hidden-numeric-
| key...
| alias_neo wrote:
| I don't own a single keyboard with a numpad, it's utterly
| useless as a left-handed person. All of my mechs are TKL or
| less.
|
| I built a numpad once but found I'm so used to not having
| one, even positioned on the left, it wasn't much use.
| folli wrote:
| TIL that left-handers are also called southpaws.
| syshum wrote:
| I buy 15in Laptops specifically for the 10 key num pad. I
| type on my keyboard all day offset with no issues.
| loudtieblahblah wrote:
| i deeply hate being without a numpad. I understand it's
| duplicated space, but typing numbers on a numpad is just a
| million times faster than going above the alphabet keys.
| xxs wrote:
| actually i use the numpad for arrows (and virtually dont need
| a mouse in a decent IDE, once I reprogram the shortcuts). I
| don't recall having a numpad lacking keyboard and a laptop in
| the last 15y+.
| aendruk wrote:
| A virtual numpad via a modifier key can be the best of both
| worlds; no extra space is used and your hands stay in the
| center.
|
| Example with image: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/2021-03-19
|
| With this method you can customize the location and
| surrounding mathematical operators.
| nyanpasu64 wrote:
| In my limited beginner experience (rarely use numpads,
| mostly in Blender, or virtual numpads), it's awkward to
| turn virtual numpads on and off, I keep forgetting which
| state the keyboard is in, and it's hard to read the grayed-
| out key labels to figure out which normal key maps to the
| numpad key I want.
| admax88qqq wrote:
| Sort of. But it's not ortholinear like most numpads and
| lacks the addition keys like a big Enter key, and the
| various math operations.
|
| It's an impoverished numpad that requires different muscle
| memory that you probably don't use often enough to master.
|
| Personally I never use the virtual numpad on my devices, I
| use the full numpad if available or I usr the top row of
| number keys.
| scintill76 wrote:
| How many digits long does it have to be to pay for the time
| to move your hand to the numpad and back?
| dragontamer wrote:
| About 4 digits IMO.
|
| The "5" key on most numpads has a bump so I can reach it
| without even looking at a keyboard I'm familiar with. Any
| 4-digit security pin I use is entered from numpads.
|
| I always buy a laptop with a numpad. Its my preferred
| method of typing numbers. There are also a whole slew of
| video game applications, as well as Blender movement
| (camera angles, camera movement, etc. etc.) that's highly
| intuitively mapped to the numpad.
|
| ------
|
| I should note that when I was practicing for the video-game
| community "Blazblue", all movements were discussed in terms
| of numpad. 236 is quarter-circle forward. 69874123 is
| "360-degree circle, counterclockwise, starting with right".
|
| Needless to say, typing a combo such as 5b 5c 2d 28d 28 b c
| b 8 b c 236c 2d was much easier with a numpad.
|
| Anyone who wants to "decode" the button pushes only needs
| to look at their numpad to see how their left-hand should
| move, with "b, c, d" being the keywords for the right-hand
| buttons in Blazblue. Street Fighter players use lp, mp, hp
| (light punch, medium punch, heavy punch) instead. So those
| bits get game specific, but the numpad approach to
| discussion is basically considered superior.
| Aperocky wrote:
| Reading this makes me want a brain type interface.
| flemhans wrote:
| The bump may be ok for new keyboards you didn't try
| before but quickly become irrelevant after a few days.
| You know where the keys are then.
| dragontamer wrote:
| I disagree.
|
| The bump on the j-key on the keyboard, and the 5-key on
| the numpad is very much clear to high-speed typing.
|
| On keyboards without bumps, I find myself off-aligned.
| Instead of typing "jumping jellyfish", I type "hynoubg
| hekktfusg", and have to realign my hands.
|
| Could I do it without the bump? Probably. But having the
| bump there (both the j-bump and the 5 bump) is very
| useful at preventing this mistake.
| andrepd wrote:
| You can get a cheap external numpad.
| Aperocky wrote:
| is it? I don't think it's any slower than typing other
| characters.
| baron_harkonnen wrote:
| I haven't had a full keyboard with a numpad in years, but
| if you ever worked in any data entry job in your career and
| learned to properly touch type on the numpad it is wildly
| faster than touch typing with the regular keyboard and
| needing to use two hands to reach all of the numbers.
|
| I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the
| off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is
| why there is such a divide.
| wott wrote:
| > _I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while
| the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers
| which is why there is such a divide._
|
| Ah? I would have thought the opposite. I cannot touch-
| type at all (and you could promise me a million dollars
| reward, I still wouldn't manage), nevertheless there is
| one part of the keyboard I can use without looking, and
| it is the numpad. Possibly because it is a limited area
| with a limited number of keys, and the numbers are placed
| in a "logical" order (compared to letters on the main
| part of a keyboard).
|
| I am bad at entering numbers on the top row, a I am
| forced to do on most laptops (and unfortunately, I
| personally find the pseudo-numpad, which requires using
| the Fn key or similar, utterly unusable; I never could
| get used to it).
| somethingwitty1 wrote:
| I did data entry for a job. In my experience, the numpad
| was considerably faster and accurate. It has been a long
| time, but I recall it cutting down entry time by ~5-6x
| (yes, I finished my daily quota in about an hour or two,
| instead of all day). The advantage was being able to use
| multiple fingers comfortably, without looking (there is a
| nice nub on most numpads) and leaving a hand free for
| letters/tabs. But like anything, I'm sure there are people
| that would have a different experience.
| Aperocky wrote:
| Interesting, though data entry feels like something that
| should have been automated (even if source is paper).
| raffraffraff wrote:
| If you work in a bank, entering deposits and withdrawals all
| day. Or a shop that doesn't have a barcode reader. Or if
| you're an accountant. I suppose you could also argue for a
| special programmer's pad too. I mean, I play the odd FPS and
| I'm still happy with WASD so I'm definitely not gonna
| understand.
| xxs wrote:
| ...or if you are use it for navigation, along with enter. I
| never use the numlock but I do use the numpad.
| protomyth wrote:
| I guess I spend much more time doing regular typing and being
| off-center really makes it painful (old HP laptop).
|
| I did buy a wireless numeric keypad at one time that had some
| extra keys and arrows that made data entry really fast.
| vzaliva wrote:
| They definetely need such option for people like me. For me,
| wasting such a big chunk of my keyboard for keys I never use is
| a no-go.
| TrispusAttucks wrote:
| Totally Agree.
|
| This is really unfortunate unless they are going hard for the
| "Accountant" demographic.
|
| * FWIW: Typing this on a System 76 machine with a [1] TKL
| mechanical keyboard.
|
| [1] TKL / Tenkeyless -
| https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/tenke...
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Every laptop keyboard sucks in its own way.
|
| Only the external standard layout will really do for look-free
| pressing of all the useful keys.
|
| So I stopped expecting anything beyond a couple minutes out of
| laptop keyboards and always carry a standard-enough 104-key.
|
| I first began this practice when I had a laptop with a few
| missing keys, but soon I realized how much better an external
| keyboard is, and how little extra weight it adds to my bag.
| nawgz wrote:
| As someone who just ordered a 60% and found themself amazed at
| how usable it was - even missing classic keys like the arrow
| keys - I also can't believe they would go for numpad. Very
| oldschool for such a modern product.
| lupire wrote:
| It's not a modern product on the hardware side. System76
| hardware is generic Clevo kit.
| lupire wrote:
| The trick is to put a sidebar window on the right ao the
| keyboard feels centered.
|
| How often do you _type_ into a full screen window?
| sasavilic wrote:
| I too hate numeric keypad and being off-center. Especially when
| you need to keep notebook on lap.
|
| But it is really hard to find notebook without numpad these
| days. Especially hard if it needs to work with linux out of the
| box.
| superbaconman wrote:
| I use a tenkeyless on my desktop for exactly this reason. I
| could always shift a normal keyboard over to center it, but
| then my mouse is way off to the side.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| if you put a trackpad to the left, the keyboard centers!
| maple3142 wrote:
| I really hate using laptop without numpad because there are 9
| digits in my email address. It is much faster to enter it using
| a numpad.
| sam0x17 wrote:
| Can't you just use the top row? I type numbers much faster
| with top row than numpad. As a result I never touch the
| numpad.
| maple3142 wrote:
| The digits in my email are "741852963", which is much
| easier to type on a numpad compared to top row. IIRC, I
| used a numpad to type those digits when I registered my
| email.
| baron_harkonnen wrote:
| I'm curious do you touch type, and, if so do you also touch
| type on the numpad?
|
| I suspect the divide here is between people that are touch
| typists w/ experience in numeric data entry and people who
| still need to look at the physical keyboard to type.
|
| As a touch typist I've never particularly cared where the
| keyboard is, and while I haven't used a numeric keypad in
| years, I still miss having one.
| ohazi wrote:
| I switched from Lenovo's 15" T-series to their 14" models
| because of the goddamn numpad.
|
| I guess now I could look at the X1 extreme, because that has a
| 15"/16" display and no numpad.
| throwaway9980 wrote:
| It's oh so terrible isn't it? I feel like this is one of those
| flexible majority things that Nassim Taleb talks about [1]. The
| vast majority of people don't care one way or the other. There
| is a small minority who wants the numeric keypad and an even
| smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will
| never buy a laptop that includes one. For me, it's always been
| yet another selling point for the Macbook.
|
| [1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-
| dict...
| throwaway-jim wrote:
| The trackpad is not centered. I'm the small minority that
| won't touch a laptop with an off centered trackpad. It's very
| uncomfortable for me as I use my right hand. Ideally
| manufacturers should make a large touch screen/surface that
| covers the entire area below the keyboard. We have the
| technology, it can be done.
| clipradiowallet wrote:
| > smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will
| never buy a laptop that includes one
|
| I'm in this minority! Why don't people use the top-row
| numbers!?!?
| syshum wrote:
| I would prefer a keyboard with out the Top row of numbers.
| Those are pretty much useless.
|
| So much so that I often use AHK to remap the top number row
| to be other functions.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| You find the entire _row_ useless? Do you set up a
| special modifier for those symbols, or what?
| tcoff91 wrote:
| Useless? Did you never learn how to touch type the
| numbers? Unless you do data entry the top row numbers are
| vastly quicker to get to than the number pad. You just
| reach a finger out and tap instead of moving your whole
| hand to the number pad.
| SilverRed wrote:
| Some programs like blender treat the top row numbers as
| totally different things (actually numbers vs camera
| movements) and for people typing a lot of numbers, the num
| pad is faster apparently.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| You interact with a computer only through the screen, speakers,
| microphone, and keyboard.
|
| So of course, the advertisement for every laptop emphasises
| internal component metrics that don't actually matter that
| much. "Now with X8-7820Z SUPER!" or whatever.
|
| Instead they have terrible screens, tinny speakers, noisy
| microphones, and non-customisable keyboard layouts. The latter
| of which are always cramped, and I mean _always_ , even on 17"
| laptops.
|
| Do you have any idea how cheap it would be for these
| manufacturers to allow you to _choose_ your keyboard layout? It
| 's a removable tray already! They can be swapped out in
| seconds! There are multiple keyboard layouts available from the
| parts manufacturers!
|
| Can you order such a thing? No.
| Haegin wrote:
| I believe the Framework Laptop offers that, though it's very
| new and the non US keyboard options are available yet.
| They're aiming for a pretty decent list by end of year
| including UK, French, Chinese, Korean, German and blank (both
| ANSI and ISO).
|
| https://frame.work
|
| (I'm in no way affiliated, just eyeing them up for my next
| laptop purchase)
| aorth wrote:
| I'm in no way affiliated with Framework either. Just saw it
| mentioned few times in tech press recently. Finally watched
| some video reviews today and have to say I'm _very_
| impressed. Definitely eyeing them as a replacement when my
| ThinkPad turns four years old next year.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| If you're into "Linux-first" computing, you might also be
| interested in SimulaVR's "Linux-first" portable VR headset:
| www.simulavr.com
|
| It will run with an 11th gen Intel compute pack (x86 ), and have
| premium specs (roughly double the resolution of the Valve Index).
|
| Turning it on will boot you into SimulaVR's VR window manager
| (built over the Godot game engine) with hand tracking. All open
| source.
|
| It's intended to be more comparable to a Linux laptop (like
| System76) than a VR gaming device like the Quest.
| make3 wrote:
| "10x more productivity" ...
| georgewsinger wrote:
| It depends on what you're comparing VR to (small laptop,
| larger/multi-screen rig, etc), and how you use it (e.g.
| https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2016/05/18/immersive-
| single-...).
|
| Working in VR provides an enormous virtual space for
| immersive work, and can for the right person be actually 10x
| more productive.
| rvz wrote:
| Would have been a go-to viable option had it not been for the
| Framework Laptops and the Apple Silicon lineup.
|
| I doubt the battery life on this thing is going to last a single
| day or even more than 12 hours compared with the Apple Silicon
| laptops out there or even the upcoming M1X Laptops.
|
| Hence this, I am in no hurry to rush into buying this contraption
| and will just skip it for the alternatives.
| Thoreandan wrote:
| Unfortunately, it looks like <https://tech-
| docs.system76.com/models/pang10/README.html> the Pangolin line
| has several non-open blobs in the firmware, so it's unclear if
| you can disable the AMD Platform Security Processor.
|
| The only available tech specs seem to be for pang10 not pang11
| hardware, maybe this will change.
| jmclnx wrote:
| Very nice, no Nvidia which for me is a big plus.
| vizzah wrote:
| When typing, my right fingers always resting covering 4 arrow
| keys (provided it's a full-sized keyboard and arrow keys are
| separated from the rest with enough blank space). I use right
| fingers to reach Home/End/PgUp/PgDn buttons, INSERT/DEL on
| numeric. So it's quite useful to have them all close-by.
| anjel wrote:
| Since the customer is always right, make it a mechanical keyboard
| as your centering it, please.
| holri wrote:
| What non free drivers / software are necessary to run this
| laptop?
| Fatalist_ma wrote:
| Uhh I understand that good Linux support is valuable, but the
| price premium for that is just too high.
|
| For the base variant(5500u, 8gb, 240gb):
|
| Pangolin - 1200$
|
| Lenovo Ideapad 3 15 - 430$[1]
|
| For a higher-end variant(5700u, 16gb, 500gb):
|
| Pangolin - 1542$
|
| HP 15z - 640$[2]
|
| I admit these are the absolute cheapest ones I could find(using
| noteb.com), but even the more premium laptops like Thinkpads are
| way cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very good Linux support).
|
| [1]: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-Ideapad-3-15-15-6-AMD-
| Ryze...
|
| [2]: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-
| laptop-15z-ef2000-touch...
| asddubs wrote:
| do ideapads actually have good linux support? Compared to a
| thinkpad it's cheap, those seem to start at 2 grand these days
| Fatalist_ma wrote:
| Not sure about Ideapads.
|
| Thinkpads with AMD cpu-s are not that expensive: https://www.
| bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1645679-REG/lenovo_20...
|
| Same specs for 40% less than Pangolin.
| asddubs wrote:
| interesting, I was recently on the lenovo website and
| couldn't find a single thinkpad for under 2 grand. I guess
| they just hid them well.
| luke2m wrote:
| My Ideapad Flex 5 runs great (Ryzen 7 5700u), but fingerprint
| and autorotate do not work (yet). Otherwise, it is completely
| stable and everything works.
| istingray wrote:
| Good Linux support is _rare_. Name one other USA vendor besides
| System76 or Purism that is Linux-first.
|
| Linux is at best a side project for Lenovo and Dell.
| nobody10 wrote:
| Just picking on "Name one other USA vendor besides System76
| or Purism that is Linux-first."
|
| Kubuntu Focus - https://kfocus.org/
| istingray wrote:
| Pick away!! The more the merrier.
| ksec wrote:
| That is the problem with basically any commodity market. The
| margin are so thin, it sort of hard to compete without the
| economy of scale. Not to mention the selling point of Linux
| support doesn't exactly have a large TAM.
| vbuterin wrote:
| > Thinkpads are way cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very
| good Linux support)
|
| My own experience with thinkpads has been one of non-stop
| frustration with battery life. The T495 advertises something
| like 14h of battery life; the actual battery life I got running
| stock Ubuntu on it was.... less than 3 hours, and that's with
| power optimization packages that do things like making USB no
| longer work installed. I recently switched to a system76, and
| so far its battery lasts easily 6-9 hours depending on what I'm
| doing.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| The T495 is s special kind of disappointment (I have one
| too), but the fault is with AMD. Zen 1 mobile has extremely
| aggressive C-States and they essentially never clock down.
| Ryzenadj helps a bit, but not much.
|
| I have a P14s Gen 1 from work now, that's one gen ahead but
| an entire different league in battery life (and it wouldn't
| cook your fingers on the palm rest)
|
| Newer kernels have helped a bit too, much more than TLP, if
| you still have that device try Fedora on it.
| ncphil wrote:
| My experience too: until I got an X250 (i5, 2 core) earlier
| this year that lasts around 10 hrs on a charge. Cost $160 in
| mint condition. Noticeably less powerful than my old T430,
| but can still do some real work on the go. Screen and
| keyboard are seriously cramped though, so it gets
| uncomfortable over long stretches. Still, there's something
| to be said for small and light. My work laptop is a big heavy
| Dell workstation machine that could double as an offensive
| weapon in a pinch.
| kleiba wrote:
| I've got an E470 with Ubuntu on it, no problems with
| battery life.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Yup. Hard to pick this over a Dell XPS or a ThinkPad with
| Linux. Nevermind many other options that Linux can be installed
| onto.
| avl999 wrote:
| On the System 76 website, this laptop upgraded to 16 Gigs of
| RAM comes at at $1288 for me.
|
| Which Dell XPS with equivalent specs at 15 inch screen is
| cheaper let alone considerably cheaper? I can't seem to find
| on the Dell website https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-
| laptops/sr/laptops/xps-...
|
| Gets even worse with 32 Gigs RAM- the cheapest Dell XPS is
| ~$500 more that this machine specced out to 32GB RAM
| https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-
| laptops/sr/laptops/xps-...
| cbsmith wrote:
| The XPS won't have AMD, and the Thinkpads with Linux pre-
| installed are pretty limited.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Lots of cheaper, equivalent laptops have AMD. The new Intel
| processors and GPUs are nice. The System76 is overpriced.
| istingray wrote:
| There are no other Linux-first vendors besides System76
| and Purism. Dell and Lenovo seem to put up with Linux as
| a side project.
| lighttower wrote:
| Before you conclude that Thinkpad have good Linux support, go
| on over to lenovo's Q&A forum and look up battery issues for
| the t14. At this point in time I've spent so much time on this
| that I could have easily saved 5k or 10k by having a machine
| that just worked!
| darthrupert wrote:
| Yep. That's how Apple hardware is dirt cheap.
| OJFord wrote:
| If you want to run Linux though, battery life is the least
| of your problems with (post.. was it 2016?) Apple hardware.
| kongin wrote:
| >but even the more premium laptops like Thinkpads are way
| cheaper(and AFAIK they also provide very good Linux support).
|
| This has not been the case in 5 years.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| What isn't the case? They don't provide good support for
| Linux or they aren't way cheaper? Cos AFAIK both of those are
| true.
| yisonPylkita wrote:
| Yeah, good luck updating firmware of your docking station
| or using DisplayPort's from it under Linux
| 3np wrote:
| After ~10y straight of ThinkPad T-series, I won't be getting
| another one. The BS you have to go through to get firmware
| updates with important security and bug fixes is ridiculous. On
| paper they're in fwupd/LVFS but in practice it've very spotty.
| After a full day of trying other approaches, I eventually
| succumbed to installing Windows and Lenovo's adware-encriched
| update manager on a spare SSD just to be able to use my
| Thunderbolt port with my official Lenovo dock.
|
| On top of that, every series have been getting worse and worse
| maintainability/extendability/serviciability for pretty every
| generation. The latest vanilla T-series are comparable to the
| first-gen Carbon-X1 in this regard.
|
| ...Now if only System76/any of the others in the open-laptop
| space could figure out a way to do more than 1080p on a 13-15"
| panel. It's 2021 and I can buy a decent 2K 10.1" USB-display
| online for $200, why are there no options for that many pixels
| on a new customizable laptop starting at $1200?
| [deleted]
| tempest_ wrote:
| I don't know about the quality of the pangolin or the HP but I
| can tell you that lenovos consumer level laptops are pretty
| trash quality wise.
|
| The thinkpads (at least the X,T and P models) tend to be a
| different story but even that is changing in recent years
| smoldesu wrote:
| Really? I bought an Ideapad for my mom a few months ago and I
| was pretty impressed with the build quality. It was plastic
| (as all $450 laptops are) but felt relatively rugged, and the
| internals were surprisingly open too. I was rather happy with
| the thermals too, there wasn't much we could throw at it to
| make it sustain uncomfortable temps.
| deepsun wrote:
| Plastic laptop cases are objectively better than metallic
| ones. Plastic doesn't heat up your legs that much, and good
| carbon plastic is stronger than steel, weight-wise.
| Subjectively, metallic feels better though.
| smichel17 wrote:
| What about by volume? Also, stronger meaning what?
| There's a combination of factors here: not just whether
| it breaks, but also how (dent vs crack..). Also, how well
| it ages. Also, how much flex does it have and how does
| that affect the lifespan of the internal components?
|
| I don't know those answers; perhaps carbon plastic wins
| on all metrics. It would be interesting to learn.
| xxs wrote:
| >Also, stronger meaning what?
|
| Usually tensile strength. For example: Tensile strength:
| even a commodity PA6-GF30 (most half-decent tools are
| made of) is ~110MPa [according to ISO 527], cast Aluminum
| - would be ~150MPa (22K psi for the imperial folks)
| depending on the alloy.
|
| Of course, most laptops would be using an ABS blend,
| which is the hallmark low-quality tools.
|
| >Dents
|
| That would depend on the top finish, not so much of the
| material itself.
| OJFord wrote:
| > >Dents
|
| > That would depend on the top finish, not so much of the
| material itself.
|
| Would it? If I dropped an aluminium bodied laptop like a
| Macbook or HP Envy, I'd expect it might scuff and
| slightly dent at the point of impact. If I dropped the
| cheapest plastic bodied thing from
| Currys/Walmart/whatever, I'd expect it might scuff and
| crack the plastic between screws or something.
|
| What top finish would you apply to a cheap plastic laptop
| to make it 'ding' like aluminium instead of crack in a
| drop test?
| 3np wrote:
| Only "objectively" by your priorities. The fact that
| metal heats up your legs is also a benefit (e.g. better
| heat transmission = better performance and component
| lifetime in the same environment).
|
| As someone else noted, "strength" in material is not one-
| dimensional. Carbon plastic is still way more conducive
| to cracking, for one.
|
| Ergo, there is no "objectively better" choice between
| metal/plastic/carbon in the general case, it comes down
| to preferences, priorities and requirements.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| Now, report the battery life of that after an year of use
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Just an anecdote, but I know someone who had an Ideapad
| gaming model and while it seemed solid brand new, a year or
| so in it started falling apart and by year two it was
| looking ragged just from normal usage, mostly at home on a
| desk or a lap (so no wear from travel or being knocked
| around in a bag).
|
| The issue seems to be less with structural design and
| particular choice of plastics that cause them to not hold
| up to wear.
| 3np wrote:
| On the flip side of this, I have an old 710S and apart
| from the now completely unusable micro-HDMI port it's
| held up really well throughout use and abuse over the
| years. Battery life holds up as well.
|
| If only it had a less brittle video-out and TB it would
| be close to perfect even today, but these to otherwise
| minor factors unfortunately make it close to useless
| apart from as a spare travel device.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| I am using a Lenovo Duet Chromebook (has good Linux container
| support) right now, and it is cheap and has good build
| quality. It is not particularly fast but it was about $260
| including pen and keyboard case.
| luke2m wrote:
| They have gotten a lot better recently in my experience.
| zumu wrote:
| > The thinkpads (at least the X,T and P models) tend to be a
| different story but even that is changing in recent years
|
| Maybe relative to Thinkpads of yesteryear, but in comparison
| to the field of professional laptops, they are still best in
| class.
| m00x wrote:
| I bought a consumer-grade Lenovo (Flex 15") for about $1200
| CAD.
|
| While it has amazing components like the AMD Ryzen, Radeon
| GPU, etc. The quality of the rest of the components is
| trash.
|
| The trackpad keeps disconnecting, the screen is very poorly
| backlit, the speakers sound like headphones that came with
| 1990 Walkmans. It's not a good laptop even if it looks good
| on paper.
| zumu wrote:
| Yea, I've heard mixed things about IdeaPads. My comment
| was specifically about _Think_Pads. The names are easy to
| confuse but are very different in build quality.
| LMYahooTFY wrote:
| I wonder about AMD support, I've been running Pop OS on a
| Thinkpad A285 for a while and the computer freezes pretty
| consistently. I'm not sure if it's related to video playback but
| it seems like it might be a pattern.
|
| I've tried multiple kernel versions to no avail.
| msravi wrote:
| Nice specs. I wonder why they don't offer 1x16G (instead of 2x8G)
| or 1x32G (instead of 2x16G) RAM options though - that would leave
| the other slot free for a future upgrade.
| Toadtoad wrote:
| As far as I know, having two equivalent RAM sticks for dual
| channel mode helps performance, so most people choose that over
| having single stick, which is often frowned upon in the desktop
| space, at least.
| ezoe wrote:
| Disappointed at display resolution. I'm forever waiting for a
| laptop with AMD CPU, no dedicated GPU, 4K built-in display,
| enough RAM, a few USB port and a Ethernet.
| acidburnNSA wrote:
| Kinda interesting that this has a 49 Wh battery while the smaller
| and less powerful Lemur Pro has a 73 Wh one [1]. I have the 2020
| Lemur Pro and love the ridiculously long battery life. I guess
| this is more of a plug it in most of the day machine vs. an
| ultralight.
|
| [1] https://system76.com/laptops/lemur
| peignoir wrote:
| System76 seems to be making good laptops but on side I'm happy
| with my zephyrus it's amd 3900HS it has a 3070 for AI and it's
| 200/300 $ more and has a great Linux community. Not sure what
| system76 value prop is on that market.
| HanaShiratori wrote:
| Same here, been using the g14 since last year as my main arch
| machine and couldn't be happier.
| hazza_n_dazza wrote:
| too expensive. should be the same price as a windows laptop minus
| ~$80 for the windows
| toastal wrote:
| There's no mention of the color gamut on that display. Necessary
| 1080p complaints aside, I couldn't buy a Linux laptop last year
| because all of the displays are trash. If you're lucky you can
| find 100% sRGB, but I and many others need 100% DCI-P3 and it's
| just not on offer. My 2-year-old $450 phone has P3 coverage, but
| almost nothing in the laptop space does.
| frellus wrote:
| I like and support anyone trying to do a Linux laptop, but sorry
| System76 -- I hate, hate, hate your keyboard layout. Awful!
|
| Take a look at the keyboard layout before you decide to purchase
| a system. Also, ask yourself if you shouldn't just be getting a
| Dell instead.
| dcow wrote:
| Does anyone know how much power this draws when idle? With a 49WH
| battery and assuming 5W idle (which is what you can get the 4k
| series ryzen mobile down to on windows on a good day), that's
| just under 10 hours. Anyone have any tighter numbers? I would
| seriously consider buying this if I could actually expect 10
| hours battery pretty consistently.
| shekhar101 wrote:
| I really appreciate how affordable upgrades (RAM, Storage etc)
| are. I am not used to it. Apple adds a hefty premium on these
| upgrades (I understand this is not a 1:1 comparison).
| Configuration looks really solid and affordable!
| xvilka wrote:
| Is it coreboot-based? Modern laptops firmware is bigger than
| Linux kernel and has too much crap inside. Intel is openly
| hostile to the open source firmware, while it's theoretically
| possible to do that on AMD systems.
| second--shift wrote:
| who buys these instead of Lenovos for running Linux on?
|
| Lenovo T14's are going for 65% of the asking price of one of
| these, if you don't care about intel vs amd.
| istingray wrote:
| Linux support is a side project for Lenovo. They could end it
| any any time.
|
| System76 is all in on Linux support. That's why I support them.
| cure wrote:
| I have bought a few System76 laptops, though not this variant -
| I like to buy the ones that ship with coreboot.
|
| As for the price difference: you can buy the base model of the
| System76 and upgrade ram/disk yourself. This is harder to do on
| the Lenovo ones; it seems the T14 has (some of) the ram
| soldered on (ugh).
|
| But, it is nice to see that you can actually buy a T14 with
| Ubuntu preinstalled (if you are willing to wait 4+ months...),
| and they list it next to the (more expensive!) Windows version:
|
| https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/th...
| lanevorockz wrote:
| Looks great
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