[HN Gopher] The open calendar, task and note space is a mess
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The open calendar, task and note space is a mess
        
       Author : quaintdev
       Score  : 266 points
       Date   : 2021-08-30 17:37 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (stevenvanbael.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (stevenvanbael.com)
        
       | poetaster wrote:
       | Just 1 for sogo from the server side.
        
       | frunzales wrote:
       | What's the current status of the kolab.com suite? I vaguely
       | remember using it in late 2000s
        
         | Jedd wrote:
         | Likewise, I expected kolab to appear in TFA's list of evaluated
         | options, as I knew it has been around for a while and covered
         | most (all?) of the author's requirements. IIRC it was a key
         | element in Munich's initial 'let's move to GNU/Linux' project,
         | so I imagined it had received a LOT of updates for those few
         | years.
         | 
         | The repo [0] looks like it's still getting lots of love. The
         | commercial entity doing much of the free software development
         | runs a hosted version [1], which is also encouraging.
         | 
         | [0] https://git.kolab.org/source/kolab/
         | 
         | [1] https://kolabnow.com/
        
       | gego wrote:
       | ...anyone still uses TheBat on Windows? I liked it a lot and it
       | had notes, tasks, calendar included...
        
       | donatj wrote:
       | > Written in old PHP, according to the homepage it requires PHP
       | 5.4
       | 
       | Just because something will run on an old version of PHP doesn't
       | mean it won't run on new PHP.
       | 
       | You can write PHP that is backwards compatible but still decently
       | modern sans typehints.
       | 
       | I used Sabre for a while recently on I think PHP 7.3 and it's not
       | bad.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | wayoutthere wrote:
       | This is a problem with all of these tasks having similar,
       | overlapping use cases and similar, overlapping technology
       | implementations. There are also remarkably few standards for the
       | things _around_ calendars, so most clients kludge something up
       | with structured data sent over e-mail. Which leads to every
       | implementation having its own, non-compatible spec.
       | 
       | Even something as simple as forwarding calendar invites can have
       | dramatically different functionality between two systems. I was
       | at a company that ran split-brain between Google and Lotus Notes
       | and it was an absolute nightmare that effectively broke
       | calendaring for 2 years because you could only forward events one
       | way, and acceptances wouldn't flow back up the chain because some
       | of the clients used a different mechanism for signaling
       | acceptance.
       | 
       | This has all been a problem for _decades_. The business world
       | solved this by just forming a consensus on Outlook  / Exchange in
       | the mid-2000s; if you use any other combination you have to
       | accept that there will be dropped communications with those who
       | use the standard stack.
        
       | pmlnr wrote:
       | Cyrus has a built in card/caldav support.
       | 
       | Nextcloud works just fine with davx on android and evolution on
       | linux for car/cal/tasks.
       | 
       | Radicale is fine for card/cal, but it's basic.
       | 
       | This scene used to be a lot worse.
        
       | jsilence wrote:
       | OP might want to take a closer look at SoGo.
        
         | Arathorn wrote:
         | +1 to SoGo
        
       | poetaster wrote:
       | I've used the whole citadel stack. It's fun. And i really enjoyed
       | using it in text only cli bbs mode. In the end, since it was src
       | install at the time, couldnt get the others (tm) to support. So,
       | we went for sogo.
        
       | josephwegner wrote:
       | I agree wholeheartedly with the author.
       | 
       | I also find this to be true of email clients. GMail reigns
       | supreme, but there is pretty much no email client out there that
       | is:
       | 
       | - A good UI/UX
       | 
       | - Doesn't store your data in their cloud
       | 
       | - Is cross-platform (even just iOS/OSX, but certainly not
       | iOS/OSX/Windows/Android).
       | 
       | Thunderbird is one of the only contenders here, and I find the UX
       | of Thunderbird to be abysmal. I've started to kickoff a project
       | to fill this space, but admittedly it's a big project and doomed
       | for the shelf :/
        
         | Closi wrote:
         | Outlook is the obvious (paid) contender not mentioned.
         | 
         | Great UI, you can connect to pretty much any email address
         | (although works best with Exchange, but you don't have to host
         | your mail on 365) and has native Windows, OSX, Android and iOS
         | clients, all bundled in for about $6 per month. Plus if the
         | company you work for has 365 you can usually use those licences
         | for home too (5 device licence is standard per seat).
         | 
         | Plus, for that $6 a month you also get Word, Excel, Powerpoint,
         | OneNote and 1TB of OneDrive space. I don't want to sound like a
         | Microsoft shill, but 365 is a steal considering what you get
         | for the cost. But it's not free.
        
           | pge wrote:
           | I'm a big fan of outlook as well, but it should be noted that
           | it doesn't have write access to google calendars which can be
           | frustrating. As a mail client, it is great.
        
           | turbinerneiter wrote:
           | The experience on Linux is beyond terrible, all the MS
           | webapps are hot garbage.
        
             | pbedat wrote:
             | Wait until you have to deal with the admin web apps.
             | 
             | To enable mail forwarding to another domain I had to
             | install powershell and a plugin to install a plugin to
             | allow forwarding in my org.
             | 
             | Then there are times when it says : ,,To change this
             | setting please enable the legacy UI"
             | 
             | And everything of this convoluted UX hell is documented in
             | a dizzying but highly accurate documentation. I have to
             | give them that!
             | 
             | Switched to protonmail and not looking back.
        
             | solarkraft wrote:
             | Compared to the desktop version Outlook for web is pure
             | heaven.
        
             | MadcapJake wrote:
             | Totally opposite for me, outlook desktop is so slow,
             | regularly crashes and has horrible patchwork of UI and the
             | web client has been great, super fast and feels like a
             | streamlined and unified evolution. Adding ics events is
             | bizarre and annoying but other than that, i'll never go
             | back.
        
           | vetinari wrote:
           | > Great UI
           | 
           | This is very subjective; I hate it ;). I consider Apple's
           | Mail.app/Calendar.app/etc much better UI-wise.
           | 
           | > Android
           | 
           | Note that Outlook for Android (not sure about iOS version) is
           | rebranded Acompli client, which sucked all your email into
           | the cloud. This was instant no-go when it originally came
           | out, so I ended up with Nine (https://play.google.com/store/a
           | pps/details?id=com.ninefolder...), which has an additional
           | advantage, that the device admin rules enforced by Exchange
           | can be applied to app only, not to the entire device.
        
             | Closi wrote:
             | > This is very subjective; I hate it ;). I consider Apple's
             | Mail.app/Calendar.app/etc much better UI-wise.
             | 
             | Agree it is completely subjective - and I actually think
             | that the Apple apps _look_ better and are simpler to use,
             | but personally I spend a lot of time in emails and
             | arranging meetings, and I can get what I need to get done
             | faster in Outlook (although I have tried to get along with
             | Mail /Calendar in OSX, it's just slower for me).
             | 
             | For instance, let's say someone writes an email to me with
             | 10 people on copy and says that we need to organise a
             | teams/zoom call (which is a pretty common thing), the
             | workflow for this in Outlook would be 5 clicks and can be
             | done entirely within the application (including creating
             | the Teams/Zoom call link). In Mail.app/Calendar.app it's
             | way more involved and you get lots less control.
             | 
             | But if you just want a casual email client, then Mail.app
             | probably does what lots of people need it to do. So when I
             | talk about good-UI for me personally, I'm not necessarily
             | talking about it being beautiful, but I think Outlook is
             | more functional specifically for a power-user.
        
         | poetaster wrote:
         | I'm probably mad but i like claws mail. I also use it for
         | caldav meeting mails and as an rss feed reader.
        
         | elcomet wrote:
         | I think mailspring is decent (definitely not perfect but at
         | least the UI is prettier than thunderbird)
         | 
         | But it's desktop only
        
           | ssivark wrote:
           | IIUC, Mailspring (Nylas?) inserted their own cloud layer in
           | between your device and a cloud email provider, to store
           | email and provide "value added" features; so it's not cloud-
           | free and requires trusting one more entity.
        
             | elcomet wrote:
             | I think they removed this but I'm not 100% sure
        
               | jamesgeck0 wrote:
               | The Mailspring ID was made optional at the end of March.
               | You do still need it if you want to use Mailspring Pro
               | features that require their server.
        
             | louis-lau wrote:
             | Nylas did, yeah. Mailspring stores all email locally.
             | Recently the requirement to sign in with a mailspring ID
             | was removed entirely.
        
           | jsilence wrote:
           | Interesting! Does it support CalDAV?
        
             | jamesgeck0 wrote:
             | Nope. It does have a plug-in api, though.
        
         | guerrilla wrote:
         | I don't find Thunderbird's UI too bad except the nonsensical
         | search/filter dichotomy, but have you tried Evolution?
        
         | Silhouette wrote:
         | The problem with a lot of these applications today is that they
         | work with the kind of information you want might want immediate
         | access to from many devices. That means cloud-hosted options
         | have a compelling advantage in convenience, which for many
         | users will inevitably outweigh any security and privacy
         | concerns.
         | 
         | I would love for the FOSS community to come up with a simple,
         | SOHO-friendly server/appliance to act as the central repository
         | for information like messages and calendars and be accessible
         | to all devices on the local network (or via VPN from outside).
         | Then we could have some competition for favourable UIs without
         | every application having to reinvent the wheel for all the back
         | end protocols and formats. Sadly the experience of applications
         | like Thunderbird suggests there isn't currently a critical mass
         | of interest in working that way and most of the market is
         | willing to tolerate the downsides of the cloud applications in
         | exchange for better UIs and more convenience.
        
       | eptcyka wrote:
       | I came to the same conclusions, but I settled for Nextcloud. It
       | is dogslow when ran from a nixOS VM, and I can't quite figure out
       | why.
        
       | yosito wrote:
       | I'm using Nextcloud for calendar and tasks, and I keep notes in
       | plain markdown files that are also synced with Nextcloud. On
       | Android I use Nextcloud Notes, Nextcloud Tasks and
       | https://github.com/Etar-Group/Etar-Calendar
       | 
       | These are by far the best note and calendar apps I've used. Far
       | better than Google's options. Apple's reminders are a bit better
       | than Nextcloud Tasks, but the only feature I'm sorely lacking
       | there is repeating tasks. Google doesn't support this either,
       | which leads me to believe that it's a shortcoming of the CalDav
       | spec for tasks.
        
         | avuton wrote:
         | If you're on Android, I suggest tasks.org, it supports
         | repeating tasks even if the server doesn't. Of course that
         | means you have to use it when completing a repeating task.
        
           | yosito wrote:
           | Thanks! This is the kind of tip I'm here for!
        
       | blackbear_ wrote:
       | Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but Org-mode for Emacs
       | [1] is just _great_ , and fits very well to the requirements:
       | 
       | - Source of truth: these are text files, so any of git,
       | nextcloud, syncthing etc. will do.
       | 
       | - Consistent interface: using emacs might be tough on mobile, but
       | there are some pretty good web interfaces for it [2]. I
       | personally use Orgzly [3] and syntching on my Android
       | 
       | - Standard protocols: custom scripting does anything. ical is
       | pretty easy to handle, not sure about webdav.
       | 
       | - FOSS: check
       | 
       | - Multiple calendars: yep, via Org agenda [4]
       | 
       | - Subtask support: As deep as you can go
       | 
       | - Custom logic: via emacs scripts (or some creativity if you're
       | using other clients)
       | 
       | - Markdown notes: yes, minimal differences between org mode and
       | markdown
       | 
       | [1] https://orgmode.org/
       | 
       | [2] https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web
       | 
       | [3] https://www.orgzly.com
       | 
       | [4] https://orgmode.org/manual/Agenda-Views.html
        
         | tomc1985 wrote:
         | Yeah but then I'd have to use emacs
        
         | roland35 wrote:
         | I love org mode and use it all the time, but I still
         | occasionally blow up my file with inadvertent vim commands! Yes
         | I know I am a weirdo for using eVil mode :)
         | 
         | The most common mistake I make is having caps lock on and
         | hitting J a bunch which merges all the lines together.
        
           | blackbear_ wrote:
           | Yes, using evil mode in emacs puts you in the weird position
           | of being scoffed at by both vim users and emacs users ;)
           | 
           | > The most common mistake I make is having caps lock on and
           | hitting J a bunch which merges all the lines together.
           | 
           | Oh that happened to me as well one day, it was catastrophic!
           | I did not realize I hit J on a folded header (which joined
           | _all_ lines in that section) before saving and quitting at
           | the end of the day. I only realized the mess on the next day.
           | 
           | I wrote a blog post [1] on how I solved it, if it sounds
           | interesting.
           | 
           | [1] https://e-dorigatti.github.io/phd/2020/08/27/lost-
           | notes.html
        
           | neutronicus wrote:
           | Ugh I make that mistake with code constantly
           | 
           | I fly into a panic because "U" doesn't do anything and
           | Spacemacs binds "K" to some sort of manual lookup
           | 
           | Deeply stressful experience
        
         | Groxx wrote:
         | Last time I was looking into org-mode, I ran across an
         | extremely frequent refrain of "there are no 3rd party tools for
         | it, because there is no spec". And then I looked for apps
         | that'd work with it anyway, and came up _shockingly_ short,
         | though some of the most-trivial things generally worked.
         | (orgzly is the one I ended up with. it 's pretty good,
         | definitely recommended for anyone doing this)
         | 
         | Has that improved? It seems fine if you do everything from the
         | CLI (or similar), but emacs is a little difficult to use on a
         | phone.
        
           | nanna wrote:
           | What sort of third party tools were you after? And when did
           | you have a go?
        
         | yewenjie wrote:
         | Yes. Org mode is fantastic.
         | 
         | However, some limitations/ drawbacks.
         | 
         | - org-agenda is slow and completely unusable if you have
         | hundreds of org files.
         | 
         | - despite multiple half-baked efforts there is still no easy-
         | to-use parser and pretty printer for the lanuguage. I'm not
         | even asking for 100% of the syntax, 20% capability of t he
         | built-in org-element API with good documentatiom will
         | accomplish 80% of the requirements.
         | 
         | - no easy way to integrate calendars and org-agenda with
         | something like a calDav server.
        
           | all2 wrote:
           | That last point is what gets me. I very much want my org-
           | agenda to be linked to the calendar app on my phone. No easy
           | way to do this, so far.
        
           | blackbear_ wrote:
           | > no easy way to integrate calendars and org-agenda with
           | something like a calDav server.
           | 
           | It would be great to have something like this.
           | 
           | I have a system which can at least handle invitations to
           | events by means of a python script that convert iCal files to
           | Org-style headers. It is triggered automatically via inotify
           | so that every time a new iCal file appears into a specific
           | folder it is appended automatically to an Org file. Now I
           | simply save the .ics that comes attached to event invitation
           | emails to have the time slot booked in my Org agenda
           | automatically.
        
         | solarkraft wrote:
         | You can also use Org Mode files with Logseq (Roam-style
         | outliner), which is the only client for it I know that doesn't
         | suck for my usage.
         | 
         | https://logseq.com/
        
         | selfhoster11 wrote:
         | Using org-mode is a complete non-starter for me because of the
         | requirement to use Emacs. I'm very happy with IntelliJ and
         | don't wish to rewire my muscle memory/conceptual familiarity
         | from an IDE into an editor that I will detest anyway (because I
         | was forced to use it to have one feature).
        
         | lambda_dn wrote:
         | Orgmode is praised, rightly, but the average user is never
         | going to, or be able to use it.
        
         | y7 wrote:
         | On iOS I recently found beorg [1] for org-mode, and so far I'm
         | happy with it. I've got it set up to connect through WebDAV to
         | a GitFS mount on my homeserver, so that I automatically get
         | versioning. I sync to the Git backend on my desktop.
         | 
         | 1. https://beorg.app/
        
         | hnrj95 wrote:
         | seconded a million times. to me, nothing rivals org and its
         | ecosystem. i'll give org-roam a shout too, if you're into this
         | type of networked note-taking
        
         | baby wrote:
         | I tried so many times to get into it, but the barrier of entry
         | is really high I find. Learning a number of shortcuts and
         | keyboard flows just to take notes is not a very good idea IMO.
        
           | edoceo wrote:
           | I'm in a terminal all day. But I point and click for
           | calendar, notes, etc. I can't remember all the syntax and
           | shortcuts. But the 'Create Event's button is generally easy
           | to find.
           | 
           | I've fed these to a custom NewTab extension and that has been
           | a huge win for me. I make a new tab like every five minutes
           | so it's always visible.
        
       | hkt wrote:
       | I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned Zim:
       | 
       | https://zim-wiki.org/
       | 
       | From their site:
       | 
       | " Zim can be used to:                   Keep an archive of notes
       | Keep a daily or weekly journal         Take notes during meetings
       | or lectures         Organize task lists         Draft blog
       | entries and emails         Do brainstorming"
       | 
       | Zim itself is a good desktop application and Markor is a good
       | mobile client for it. Sync can be done via nextcloud, dropbox
       | etc. I'm not 100% on the state of the windows support, but I use
       | it daily and it is great. It coexists nicely with version
       | control, too.
        
       | neilv wrote:
       | If tackling those 3, please consider making it 4, by also
       | tackling contacts.
        
       | torstenvl wrote:
       | I've had good success with Baikal, a sabre/dav-based project, on
       | PHP 8.0. It still is only CalDAV and CardDAV though, no WebDAV
       | for file/note sharing.
       | 
       | Installation can be janky and there's no clear documentation on
       | dependencies -- and it'll fail silently if you're missing any. On
       | FreeBSD I install the following PHP packages and then it works
       | splendidly:
       | 
       | sudo pkg install php80 php80-dom php80-filter php80-openssl
       | php80-pdo php80-pdo_sqlite php80-xml php80-xmlreader
       | php80-xmlwriter
        
         | koevet wrote:
         | Been running dockerized Baikal for years on my server.
         | 
         | This is the image I have created few years ago (likely newer
         | ones exist): https://hub.docker.com/r/lucianofiandesio/baikal
        
       | vbsteven wrote:
       | I'm the author of the article, it's always fun to see your own
       | articles pop up on HN unexpectedly.
       | 
       | This post was written several months ago and in the meantime I
       | have given up on trying to cobble something together using
       | existing solutions because they don't provide the extensibility
       | that I want.
       | 
       | I'm building my own replacement from scratch focussing on
       | tasks/projects/calendars first. The architecture is a postgres db
       | exposing CRUD API endpoints and all changes are broadcasted over
       | MQTT so I can easily hook into everything for automation and
       | extension.
       | 
       | I have a desktop application in JavaFX and a mobile Android app
       | so I can use Kotlin as one language across all clients and
       | backend. Lots of code sharing going on for things like API
       | models.
        
         | 0xCMP wrote:
         | I planned to comment on the conclusion as well. I think these
         | protocols often do not handle things well enough and in the end
         | the apps out there do not implement them properly anyways. You
         | always end up building some kind of CRUD/RPC thing that works
         | via HTTP/WebSocket which is why things like Todoist and etc
         | work well and are able to add the features everyone wants in
         | the end.
        
       | smartmic wrote:
       | Isn't the authors conclusion about the fragmented landscape
       | symptomatic for almost all FOSS solutions which try to tackle a
       | specific user need? I think this is a positive development. The
       | diversity and rapid development of technologies requires users to
       | deal with them holistically and, in the best case, to support or
       | develop a new, better solution.
        
         | djrogers wrote:
         | > requires users to deal with them holistically and, in the
         | best case, to support or develop a new, better solution
         | 
         | If you only ever want to serve the 1% that are capable of
         | supporting or developing a new solution, then yes - I suppose
         | this'd be a good thing. In practice though, such exclusionary
         | mindsets never lead to good outcomes - software or otherwise.
        
           | dasyatidprime wrote:
           | 'support' can take the form of financial support, in which
           | case anyone who would be able to pay for SaaSS subscriptions
           | or proprietary software would only have to do something very
           | similar here. The biggest problem there is that the social
           | infrastructure and coordination points don't seem to exist,
           | and that's a place where the fragmentation probably does hit
           | badly, where consolidating users' needs more would let
           | development be much more efficient and coordinated in such a
           | way that crowd financial support would become more
           | economically plausible at least. Of course, there's the free-
           | rider game-theoretic issue, among other things...
           | 
           | While there's a lot of issues between "where are are now" and
           | "broadly end-user-friendly libre software support models
           | being common enough to be recognizable and repeatable",
           | "sure, so long as you can code" isn't meant to be the _first_
           | answer. It 's just become a cultural laughing-point because a
           | lot of people do ignore the issues, and "you can _choose whom
           | you ask_ to handle the code" requires more work on the
           | environment to be practical. IME, "exclusionary mindset"
           | usually has little to do with it.
           | 
           | The "VCs have conditioned people to never pay for software,
           | so you may have to have massive scale and run on surveillance
           | capitalism to survive" and "user model of technology being
           | vertically integrated service by default" are of course a
           | whole other environmental game which may crush attempts to
           | make this work.
        
       | cweagans wrote:
       | Pretty sure the Sabre website is out of date. sabre/dav requires
       | PHP 7.1+ || 8.0+ per https://packagist.org/packages/sabre/dav
        
       | aantix wrote:
       | Curious - for meeting availability.
       | 
       | If I have a Google Business account for my company,
       | jim@mycompany.com - and an external client of mine,
       | tom@myclient.com, wants to see my availability, if he adds my
       | external email address as an attendee, will he see my
       | availability?
        
       | kstrauser wrote:
       | Citadel has been around forever, but I've only played with its
       | BBS functionality. Has anyone tried it for calendaring etc.?
        
       | trimble_tromble wrote:
       | Consider EteSync as a solution. FOSS, can be self-hosted,
       | available on multiple platforms, etc:
       | 
       | https://www.etesync.com/
        
         | aidenn0 wrote:
         | I came here to recommend this. A few notes:
         | 
         | 1. There is a CalDav/CardDav bridge which lets you use apps
         | that don't implement the ETE protocol which is good because...
         | 
         | 2. The iOS app is nigh unusable. It is painfully slow, requires
         | manual syncing, and if your screen turns off in the middle of a
         | sync, it may get killed by iOS forcing you to start the whole
         | thing over again. Just set up the DAV bridge and use iOS's
         | native DAV syncing.
        
         | vinay427 wrote:
         | Seconded. It was a bit more awkward to set up compared to
         | Nextcloud or Radicale (which both support standard DAV) but the
         | Etesync Android client and desktop bridge work very reliably in
         | my experience, and the added bonus is end-to-end encryption. I
         | now have my contacts and calendars on Etesync and haven't
         | needed to touch it, easily configuring it on new client devices
         | as needed.
        
       | fuzzy2 wrote:
       | Loosely related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28353718
        
       | pimlottc wrote:
       | I'm frustrated that adding and tracking public events is still so
       | primitive. Why can't I just click a button and follow all the
       | local events for my favorite artist/venue/team/theater/charity?
       | Why do I still have to manually create events and copy and paste
       | details? Why are there so few "add to calendar" and why do they
       | often fail?
       | 
       | Part of it is down to the failure of micro formats and the
       | semantic web, but it would seem like with today's technology it
       | wouldn't be to hard for a browser extension to recognize an event
       | and automatically extract the correct details (title, place,
       | date, time).
        
         | monksy wrote:
         | It sounds like you have 2 issues here: 1. You need a user based
         | event recommendation service 2. You need a personalized
         | calendar subscription from that service (These don't have to be
         | connected services)
         | 
         | I think a lot of this comes down to walled gardens kicking out
         | formats from being developed. If we had a standard for event
         | announcements, I think we would have had a chance.
        
         | kuschku wrote:
         | ical via RSS is a spec used for that, isn't it?
        
         | peterburkimsher wrote:
         | Live music is a ripe market for a new social network!
         | 
         | There's a few music apps, but they focus only on the audio. I
         | wish there were a combined app for managing everything
         | together.
         | 
         | Listening to music (Spotify, YouTube, iTunes), keeping track of
         | what music I've listened to (Last.FM, iTunes play counts),
         | making playlists (Spotify, YouTube, iTunes), organising
         | playlists into folders (iTunes), syncing music to devices
         | offline (iTunes).
         | 
         | I hear about bands I like being on tour (Facebook, band
         | websites, posters), I buy tickets (Ticketmaster, LiveNation,
         | trains), go to events (iCal), take photos (iPhoto), and keep
         | track of the bands I saw live (Excel).
         | 
         | At those events, I buy physical T-shirts, hoodies, posters, and
         | CDs, and get them signed by the band when possible (NFT, Wise,
         | bank cards, cash). I meet other fans while waiting in the
         | queue, and exchange contact details (Contacts, Facebook,
         | WhatsApp, WeChat, LINE, KakaoTalk, iMessage). I then see the
         | other bands that friend likes (Facebook) and check out their
         | music (Spotify, YouTube, iTunes) and the cycle starts again.
         | 
         | When I listen to a song, my mind still makes connections to the
         | memories of that time I crowdsurfed while the band played it on
         | Warped Tour '08 in LA during my exchange programme to
         | California. Having software that could help me create the links
         | to organise all those memories would be wonderful. It doesn't
         | exist yet though, from what I can tell - so I hope someone will
         | write it!
        
         | zh3 wrote:
         | Given the (commercially-driven) failure of the semantic web,
         | I'm in favour of diversity (even if at the expense of
         | convenience). Sooner or later network effects means this sort
         | of service will likely still end up as a monopoly in the hands
         | of some F**G organisation (probably G) but in the meantime we
         | can live in hope.
        
         | dkarl wrote:
         | Our local MLS team had a feature to add the game schedule to
         | your calendar. I was excited, but it turned out that for Google
         | Calendar you had to grant a third party app read and write
         | access to all of the data connected to your Google account,
         | including your emails. Surprisingly, Google did a good job of
         | explaining the possible consequences of that, including all
         | your data being irretrievably deleted.
         | 
         | So I added all the games by hand, and a few weeks later, the
         | entire second half of the season was rejiggered.
        
           | switz wrote:
           | You should be able to do this with a third party service such
           | as https://fixtur.es/en/team/philadelphia-union
           | 
           | I route my remote calendars through Cloudflare workers for a
           | modicum of privacy. It's as simple as running a basic open
           | source relay and prepending the worker URL:
           | https://github.com/Zibri/cloudflare-cors-anywhere
        
         | marcellus23 wrote:
         | > Why are there so few "add to calendar" and why do they often
         | fail?
         | 
         | In my experience (using iOS + macOS) they're pretty common and
         | always work. What kinds of failures do you see?
        
           | baby wrote:
           | Same here. If you use google calendar or Apple cal it often
           | works fine.
        
         | hannasanarion wrote:
         | Third party services are totally capable of this. Google
         | Calendar has a "subscribe to calendar" feature that puts every
         | event in somebody else's calendar into yours. I know of several
         | clubs and fandoms that use this feature to track public events,
         | and at least one music venue near me uses it as well.
        
           | killerdhmo wrote:
           | Agreed! and they do this for holidays, sport games, all sorts
           | of stuff.
           | 
           | Add Calendar > Browse Calendars of Interest.
           | 
           | The gym I go to also publishes their calendar as a google
           | calendar I can subscribe to. So maybe it's more of the
           | adoption concern that the GP is highlighting.
        
         | theshrike79 wrote:
         | On the other hand you can click a link on a web page and have
         | your calendar filled with spammy fake calendar events
         | advertising who knows what.
         | 
         | It's not a failure of the semantic web, but more a failure of
         | no one creating a shared calendar like that. (And Facebook not
         | giving API access to calendar events).
        
         | armchairhacker wrote:
         | Personally i have a better experience, with most places sending
         | me an email that says" Do you want to add this event?" And i
         | click yes and it gets added to my calendar with location or
         | Zoom link, etc.
         | 
         | I also had a shared calendar with all of the events for my lab
         | synchronized.
         | 
         | I don't think this is open calendar because it was Google, but
         | it made events pretty seamless.
        
         | switz wrote:
         | I run a free hand-curated concert calendar in NYC[0] with a
         | friend. It's all operated manually and we still end up with
         | 15-20 great shows every night. If this were automated or
         | scraped, you'd have 250 events on your calendar per day.
         | 
         | Sure it might work if you just pick one venue, or a handful of
         | artists. But it's not particularly helpful since you'll either
         | be overwhelmed by spam (venue shows you're not interested in)
         | or you'll inevitably be missing out on a lot of great events
         | (since you're filtering on very specific parameters).
         | 
         | On our app, you can swipe on any show to add it to your phone's
         | calendar instantly. 60 seconds daily or a few minutes each week
         | and you can build your own subset calendar from our already
         | curated calendar. It's honestly very efficient and low-tech.
         | 
         | I do subscribe to some remote calendars like my favorite sports
         | team (NBA provides per-team calendar URLs). If you're in a
         | smaller town with just a few venues, I bet you could do that
         | too. For the privacy-conscious among us, you can always route
         | them through Cloudflare Workers pretty easily.
         | 
         | [0] https://tappedin.live
        
       | pseudalopex wrote:
       | The Cyrus IMAP server has CalDAV, CardDAV, and WebDAV modules.[1]
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://www.cyrusimap.org/imap/download/installation/manage-...
        
         | chrismorgan wrote:
         | And JMAP, which makes an _excellent_ foundation for client
         | development, web and otherwise. Cyrus implements the
         | calendaring and contacts drafts, counterparts to CalDAV and
         | CardDAV. (See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/active/#jmap for
         | the active drafts. JMAP working group minutes from IETF-111
         | last month say of jmap-calendars, "hopefully finalise by end of
         | the year" <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/jmap/minutes>. JSCalendar,
         | which it also depends on, was published last month as RFC
         | 8984.)
         | 
         | Fastmail's web app--mail, calendar, contacts and everything
         | else--is built on JMAP, though it doesn't yet support offline
         | synchronisation which JMAP is well designed to support.
         | (Fundamentally, JMAP is an object synchronisation protocol, not
         | an email protocol or anything like that.)
        
       | bbertelsen wrote:
       | In the notes field: Notable, Joplin, and recently been looking a
       | lot at Dendron which has tight integration with vscode.
       | Notable/Jopline are standalone apps.
       | 
       | The promise of Geary never really materialized. I think they
       | tried to get funding a while back but couldn't hit their,
       | arguably lofty, goals. It's still great, but limited, software.
        
       | d--b wrote:
       | Yes well. On one hand people are angry when big tech roll out
       | closed protocols. And on the other hand open standards get
       | criticized for being messy...
        
       | nixpulvis wrote:
       | Add email and contacts to the list while you're at it.
        
       | akshayB wrote:
       | I worked on a project sometime ago where we needed to create a
       | special event handling calendar with a Todo list for a large
       | organization. It's crazy to deal with Google / Microsoft emails &
       | calendars and on top of all that you need to handle iOS, Android
       | devices & Outlook as well. We ran to bunch of issues with
       | background sync and enormous attachments. At the end we just
       | ended up using slack bot and a internal blogging tool to handle
       | the whole thing. Calendar and notes are vitally important but
       | with all customization / fragmented ecosystem thing become
       | challenging.
        
       | AshamedCaptain wrote:
       | This is ridiculous. The guy just goes around bashing everything
       | that's not Rust as "old". He even claims Java & C "is not very
       | suitable for cross-platform world". So obviously his conclusion
       | is "I'll have to write something in Rust!".
       | 
       | Huge world of "groupware" software around. Think Zimbra. Owncloud
       | is hardly the only choice here...
        
         | selfhoster11 wrote:
         | Java is literally one of the native languages of Android, and
         | runs everywhere on the desktop. It's practically the definition
         | of cross-platform.
        
       | lawrenceyan wrote:
       | A Google Calendar / Google Keep combo works pretty well for me.
       | Cross platform compatibility is decent too.
        
         | guerrilla wrote:
         | They are looking for an open platform and are privacy
         | conscious, as per the first paragraph. Anything google doesn't
         | meet the basic requirements.
        
       | ricktdotorg wrote:
       | See also Standard Notes[1], pretty much a drop-in replacement for
       | Apple's iOS Notes app. Decent web interface with (paid) plugins,
       | great desktop and mobile apps, backend can be self-hosted as
       | well. It's really good and its OSS[2].
       | 
       | [1] https://standardnotes.com
       | 
       | [2] https://github.com/standardnotes
        
         | smoldesu wrote:
         | Standard Notes won't be a competitor in my eyes until they add
         | extentions/theming support to the free tier as well. It's an
         | absurd and zero-margin holdout that makes zero sense and only
         | drives me away from their service.
        
         | djrogers wrote:
         | Hate to be 'that guy', but without the ability to share and
         | collaborate on notes, it's not a drop-in replacement.
        
       | dexwiz wrote:
       | Synchronizing events beetween calendar systems is hard. iCal may
       | be a serialization format, but it doesn't handle things like:
       | sync event from system A to system B, update in System B, how do
       | we tell System A? For simple events with no attendees that is
       | easy. But once you deal with recurring events, and everyone's
       | varying implementations, it quickly falls apart.
       | 
       | Internally all the major Calendar services (GCal and Outlook),
       | store events differently when it comes to events with multiple
       | attendees and recurring events, and it takes understanding the
       | varying nuances to perform good synchronization. Even the
       | difference between a timed event and an all day event will vary
       | from system to system. And that barely touches the timezone
       | issues that arise when scheduling.
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | Having spend 1/2 lifetime doing this: yes++
         | 
         | Add to all that : the calendaring hosting providers will block
         | your API access to their customers so unless you have a
         | business relationship with them, or the technical solution
         | means that they can't block you, it's a crappy business
         | proposition.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | pbnjay wrote:
       | I wrote a mostly-complete Go implementation of the iCal protocol
       | last year. It was eye-opening but interesting.
        
       | dukeofdoom wrote:
       | After writing 2 calendar programs, I came to conclusion nothing
       | beats pen and paper for keeping todos and personal tasks. I
       | bought a large wirebound sketchbook, and fine tip pen. Plan my
       | day, then take a photo of my day's or weeks tasks. Very fast to
       | do, plus all the freedom and sensory experience of drawing on
       | paper. Works for me. I guess its a hybrid of manual and digital.
        
         | selfhoster11 wrote:
         | To me, paper doesn't work for calendaring and to-do because it
         | simply has no way to beep at you to tell you to get off your
         | backside and get a piece of work done. I'm happy it works for
         | others, but I simply need a digital solution for this.
        
       | guerrilla wrote:
       | > Written in old PHP and there is work underway to do a complete
       | rewrite in Golang
       | 
       | Wow [1], how cool would that be. I love that NextCloud exists and
       | I plan to use it and call me biased but god I hate to be running
       | some PHP. I used to maintain a vulnerability database and I don't
       | think I can ever trust a PHP project again at this point. Maybe
       | things have changed but you'd find it very difficult to convince
       | me.
       | 
       | 1. https://github.com/nextcloud/server/issues/16726
        
         | ognarb wrote:
         | Disclaimer: I work for Nextcloud but opinion is my own and not
         | the one from my employer.
         | 
         | There is no work underway to port Nextcloud to golang. That
         | would be a bit crazy since all the plugins and apps wouldn't
         | work anymore (and there are tons of them) and even just
         | rewriting the core would take years.
         | 
         | Owncloud is trying to rewrite their core since two years and it
         | is still only a tech demo and many features are lost compared
         | to their php based product. (They are also doing weird thing
         | like taking nosql to seriously and not using at all a sql
         | database just files, that probably doesn't help...)
        
       | peterburkimsher wrote:
       | I wrote my own Notes app, for much of the same reason: I want to
       | control the data, and keep it local on the device (not synced to
       | a cloud service).
       | 
       | The major feature that was lacking with the built-in Notes app is
       | a folder hierarchy. When I have ideas about software I want to
       | code, hardware I want to build, or a shopping list, or a band I
       | want to check out - I don't want these to all be stored in one
       | long "Notes (723)" news feed where I'll forget it if I don't
       | handle it immediately.
       | 
       | Back in the days of the iPod (call me old), it was easy to have a
       | folder hierarchy for Notes (though I admit that they weren't
       | editable). There were third-party apps like Check Off that would
       | sync a to-do list automatically, but only as a single file. When
       | the iPhone arrived, iTunes gained the ability to sync Notes, but
       | only as a flat folder structure. It's true that SQL doesn't have
       | folder hierarchy so it's harder to code, but I'd rather
       | categorise ideas like they come in my mind!
       | 
       | Apple removed the feature of local Notes sync in Mac OS 10.9
       | Mavericks. Calendars stuck around a little longer, but I moved to
       | BusyCal when the GUI was redesigned in 10.10. Currently I'm using
       | Mac OS Server 5.6 on Mac OS 10.13 to host a local calendar and
       | email server.
       | 
       | Apple removed Calendars and Contacts from Mac OS Server in Mac OS
       | 10.14 Mojave. The recommended replacement is CalendarServer,
       | Copyright (c) 2005-2017 with a note that says "The developers ...
       | have each moved on to other projects". Apple recommended this in
       | December 18, 2019 according to the "Published date".
       | 
       | https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208312
       | 
       | Apple removed syncing Apps with iTunes 12.7. The message is
       | clear: Apple are not interested in letting you manage your
       | digital life - you must use iCloud and store it on their own
       | servers.
       | 
       | https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/86890
       | 
       | I miss the Digital Hub strategy where there is a Source of Truth
       | that isn't owned by Apple or Google. The cloud is just someone
       | else's computer, and if/when Apple/Google/Spotify/Facebook
       | decided to lock me out of my account, I don't want to lose my
       | photos, notes, music, contacts, bookmarks, calendars.
       | 
       | https://xkcd.com/908/
        
       | irl_ wrote:
       | Missing from almost every calendar hosting thing I've used is the
       | ability to publish free/busy information to allow others to
       | schedule me into meetings without needing to be on the same
       | system.
       | 
       | I'm pretty sure vCalendar supports this, just no one has
       | implemented it.
       | 
       | If I could host a lightweight javascript app that let you browse
       | the information until your client supports it properly that'd be
       | cool.
        
         | acomjean wrote:
         | Lotus Notes had that. Administrative staff could look at your
         | calendar and sign you up for things..
         | 
         | Of course all Notes Mail and Calendar are just Notes
         | Applications built upon its nosql database and lotus script.
         | Its why they were kinda awkward. But I worked briefly at IBM
         | making custom business Apps with Notes, which was a decent/
         | fairly easy way of making custom applications for businesses
         | last century.
        
         | poetaster wrote:
         | I use claws mail for this. I get invites from caldav and reply
         | directly in my mail client. Cal views are primitive.
        
       | lifeisstillgood wrote:
       | I think the whole area (rightly) suffers from "Bikeshed" syndrome
       | - this is something everybody can have an opinion on, and 90% of
       | the time their opinions are right for them. At work you know
       | someone who schedules appointments with themselves just to block
       | out some time, or schedules meeting with you because emails don't
       | get a response and ...
       | 
       | The solution is not more protocols, or opinionated software.
       | 
       | The solution is that every individual should have the skills
       | (software literacy) and the infrastructure (some combination of a
       | diary server with an API in fifty languages) and tools (come on
       | iPhone, really whatever you are doing it's a total mess)
       | 
       | At some point with Mailbox any coder will have built an sub-AI
       | agent from 200 regexes - and that's probably what will smoosh out
       | across the world - oh yes I let my Virtual AI / PA handle that,
       | it was coded by my brother in law and I made a few config
       | changes.
        
       | dd444fgdfg wrote:
       | Author says PHP, Java and C are not suitable for the cross-
       | platform world. Hmmm.
        
       | sdze wrote:
       | Horde Project?
       | 
       | Old but gold.
       | 
       | > https://www.horde.org
        
         | aidenn0 wrote:
         | Wow, Horde has really come a long way since I last glanced in
         | its direction. Looks like the "groupware" distribution ticks
         | every box from tFA except for notes being sharable over
         | WebDAV...
        
         | rcarmo wrote:
         | I built two webmail solutions on Horde back in the early 2000s,
         | and it was amazing at the time, but hasn't aged well. I'd
         | rather use plain IMAP and Radicale...
        
           | sdze wrote:
           | New Horde is quiet nice. Even ActiveSync is well implemented
           | for most clients.
        
       | normaler wrote:
       | I habe been using radikale for 3 years now. Works really well for
       | calendar and contacts. Tasks is okay aswell, but I never tried it
       | for notes.
        
       | ognarb wrote:
       | Disclaimer: Involved in both KDE (including kde pim and kalendar)
       | and Nextcloud. See bio.
       | 
       | * I wouldn't call Nextcloud codebase old. It's a PHP 7.3 codebase
       | with sure quite a lot of legacy stuff but a lot of thing has been
       | improved and refactored with the time. It's maintained, there is
       | an active community and an healthy enterprise behind the project.
       | IHMO this is that matters more than the programming language
       | used.
       | 
       | * SabreDAV supports WebDAV and this is that we are using at
       | Nextcloud for our webdav/caldav and carddav support.
       | 
       | * KOrganizer does run on Windows but it require to be built from
       | source. I have been told that a better Windows support is being
       | worked on for the entire PIM suite and I hope that at some point
       | exe can be distributed. Technically there is nothing that makes
       | it impossible to use on macOS, we just need more helping hands to
       | help with fixing the platform specific issues. There is also a
       | modern alternative to Korganizer being worked on called Kalendar.
       | More on it can be learned on https://claudiocambra.com/
       | (Disclaimer: I was the mentor of this GSoC project).
        
         | skinkestek wrote:
         | I think I will use this opportunity to say thank you!
         | 
         | I've loved KDE since I was an almost broke student 17 or so
         | years ago.
         | 
         | I also use NextCloud now to sync Joplin, and I contribute to
         | other projects (mostly donations, some code).
        
       | djyaz1200 wrote:
       | I'm surprised I haven't heard of a "Twilio of Calendars" that
       | just makes this all dirt simple and easy to integrate into any
       | 3rd party application quickly and comes with user configurable UI
       | libraries for mobile and desktop etc. If this does exist please
       | let me know because I've been looking and would pay for it.
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | I own a company that did/does this. It's not attractive from a
         | business perspective. Huge amount of detailed work required to
         | get/keep working; hosting providers shaft you (see post above);
         | nobody wants to pay because "gcal is free".
        
         | georgeashworth wrote:
         | Not affiliated, but I would check out Nylas:
         | https://www.nylas.com/products/calendar-api/
        
           | singingwolfboy wrote:
           | I would strongly recommend steering clear of Nylas.
        
             | deadbunny wrote:
             | Why? Hard to take a recommendation with zero context.
        
       | epberry wrote:
       | Psssst https://calendso.com/
        
       | louis-lau wrote:
       | I'm using the built in calendar application on windows. It's
       | hidden undar a hacky workaround, but it has caldav support. You
       | have to add an icloud account, and then edit the server address
       | in the settings afterwards.
       | 
       | Has worked flawlessly after that, and I like the integration with
       | other parts of windows.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | codethief wrote:
       | Can anyone here recommend a slick open-source GUI calendar app
       | for Linux with support for iCal, WebCal, recurring events and
       | notifications? I've been following GNOME Calendar[0] for a while
       | but judging by the website it's still mostly WIP.
       | 
       | I've been using Thunderbird's Lightning add-on for a lack of
       | alternatives but it's mostly been a PITA.
       | 
       | [0]: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Calendar
        
         | wastholm wrote:
         | I've been using KOrganizer[1] for longer than I can remember.
         | For better and/or worse, it's pretty tightly integrated with
         | the Plasma desktop. For now at least, I use it with Google
         | Calendar as its backend. Every once in a long while, it gives
         | me some scary-sounding error message about failing to sync --
         | but so far as I can tell the sync works just fine, albeit
         | sometimes with a bit of lag.
         | 
         | I recently also started using it with my work-mandated Office
         | 365 calendar. According to some docs somewhere that I can't
         | find right now, there were quite a few hoops to jump through to
         | make that read/write so I settled for read-only.
         | 
         | [1] https://apps.kde.org/korganizer/
        
           | cycomanic wrote:
           | Have a look at davmail. It's essentially a exchange to
           | IMAP/calDAV... translator. I used it before with our work
           | exchange server. It worked flawlessly (better than the imap
           | support in exchange IMO)
        
         | input_sh wrote:
         | I love the one that comes with elementary OS[0]. Looking at
         | those screenshots, it seems to be a fork of Gnome's calendar?
         | 
         | I've connected it to both Google Calendar and Nextcloud's
         | calendar, and it works perfectly well, provides notifications,
         | recurring events, and I can quickly access today's events just
         | by clicking on the clock on the bar. No complaints what so
         | ever.
         | 
         | elementary's tasks app, on the other hand, is still WIP.
         | 
         | [0] https://github.com/elementary/calendar
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | martijnvds wrote:
         | I recently switched to Evolution on Gnome, and put all my
         | notes, tasks, calendars and address books in a "radicale"[0]
         | CalDav/CardDav server.
         | 
         | It's not 'slick' by 2021 app standards but it does what it
         | needs to do pretty well. And compared to some apps, it uses
         | almost no memory.
         | 
         | On my phone, I combine it with FairEmail, DAVx5 and OpenTasks.
         | 
         | [0] https://radicale.org/
        
         | bestouff wrote:
         | So far I've always used Evolution and I like it pretty much. It
         | even connects to my team's O365 stuff.
        
       | nicholashead wrote:
       | I switched to Joplin a while back when Evernote decided to
       | implode itself, and stopped iterating on their product. Now I
       | send auto-donations to Joplin devs via Github Sponsorship. Love
       | it. Syncs to my DropBox and I haven't had any issues.
        
         | lancemurdock wrote:
         | im so bummed on evernote. Ive used them forever. I just needed
         | a note taking app in the cloud. They've evolved into a bloated
         | piece of software thats like a crappy version of google docs.
         | I'll checkout this Joplin app
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | monksy wrote:
       | I've been looking for an iCal server to serve as a database for
       | events. I agree with the author, this space is rather empty. Most
       | of the projects out there have aged quite a bit and could use
       | feature enhancements. (I.e. annoymous RSVPs, flexible
       | notification perefences on a per user basis)
       | 
       | I was looking at bedework, however it doesn't deploy very easily.
       | Now I'm looking at Radicale. It does have a docker container, but
       | it's not well documented.
        
         | offmycloud wrote:
         | I found the Radicale documentation [1] sufficient for setup,
         | and it really hasn't needed much in the way of maintenance. I
         | also enabled the awesome Git integration so that every client-
         | side contact/vCard change becomes a server-side git commit to
         | my contacts repo. Now my birthday greeting script can just "git
         | pull" to get the latest contact data.
         | 
         | 1. https://radicale.org/3.0.html
        
         | rubatuga wrote:
         | Radicale is pretty stable. I've submitted a patch in the past
         | and they integrated it pretty quick.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2021-08-30 23:00 UTC)