[HN Gopher] Walking increases spontaneous fluctuations in the brain
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Walking increases spontaneous fluctuations in the brain
        
       Author : d4rkp4ttern
       Score  : 235 points
       Date   : 2021-08-30 12:01 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.salon.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.salon.com)
        
       | spookybones wrote:
       | I've noticed it's much harder to walk in my city and generate
       | ideas because there are spontaneous loud sounds and random
       | visuals compared to when I lived more rurally. I'm not sure if
       | there is a way I can reduce this ... dark sunglasses and noise-
       | cancelling headphones maybe, but that seems distracting in its
       | own way and potentially dangerous.
        
         | the-dude wrote:
         | We have got parks.
        
           | spookybones wrote:
           | Unfortunately the only park I'm near is very small, and
           | people frequently blast music at it. I could commute to a
           | larger park, but that wont work for daily walks.
        
       | FigurativeVoid wrote:
       | We have had a few walking related stories on HN the past few
       | weeks. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28268136 was
       | interesting.
        
         | micromacrofoot wrote:
         | must be some submarine pr from big walking
        
           | ruined wrote:
           | clearly the left media is trying to develop a vanguard of
           | hardcore urban communists with calm minds, good
           | cardiovascular health, and detailed knowledge of the local
           | geography.
           | 
           | quite sinister if you think about it
        
             | hkt wrote:
             | The revolution will be pedestrianised
        
       | m0zg wrote:
       | Salon, so probably fake news, but anecdotally, I've had a lot of
       | good ideas while just walking outside (or in the shower, which I
       | suspect could have the same effect). Basically when I'd get stuck
       | on something hard at work, I'd lock my machine, leave my phone
       | behind, and walk around the building a few times. Usually that
       | was enough to figure out how to get unstuck at least, if not
       | outright solve the problem. Try this, if you're able, I'm pretty
       | sure it's not just me.
       | 
       | It's kind of aggravating that this is not considered to be "work"
       | by most people. I'd say those are some of the highest value parts
       | of my day.
        
       | brainmapper wrote:
       | Oh my this article is painful to read on so many levels. It
       | treats as important many phenomena that are either inevitable or
       | uninteresting.
       | 
       | (1) The fact that engaging in one task distracts attention from
       | another task is obvious. People derive inspiration from taking a
       | shower, swimming, biking, playing music and yes, walking. All
       | these tasks have something in common, they are different from
       | whatever task one was doing beforehand, and they require less
       | cognitive focus than many of the things that we do for work.
       | 
       | (2) The fact that noise in the brain is 1/f is not particularly
       | interesting. Many natural systems have 1/f amplitude spectra.
       | This pattern occurs commonly in multi-scale systems (the brain
       | being one example).
       | 
       | (3) The fact that many aspects of brain activity (both signal and
       | noise) are affected by aging, consciousness, mental experiences,
       | memory and so on is not particularly interesting. Assuming that
       | one is not a dualist, every distinct mental state must be
       | reflected by some unique pattern of brain activity.
       | 
       | (4) Scientists know quite a bit about where these "spontaneous
       | fluctuations" come from. Many of them are a consequence of
       | changes in blood pressure, which varies substantially and
       | randomly over time (within some finite band, of course). Others
       | are caused by mental states that are difficult to measure and
       | model, and so are unknown to the experimenter. But just because
       | something is noise from the perspective of the experimenter
       | doesn't mean that it is noise from the perspective of the brain.
        
       | vadansky wrote:
       | I wonder if any of the benefits of walking carry over to biking?
       | I've basically given up walking to always biking but after
       | reading "Deep Work" I'm starting to feel like I'm missing out by
       | not rambling around and zoning out.
        
         | pkghost wrote:
         | I'm curious about this, too. I love biking for the distance you
         | can travel, the wind, the strength it builds, but I do have a
         | distinct taste for walking, though I'd have to think about it
         | more to have any ideas as to why.
         | 
         | P.S. a) It's easier to dawdle when you walk, to enjoy the
         | particulars of the places you pass; biking is so fast by
         | default that you have less time to savor details. b) Biking
         | tends to be higher intensity exercise, which may actually take
         | necessary energy away from mind-wandering; in fact, my mind
         | wanders much less while biking than walking, so I'd guess this
         | is the case, but maybe this isn't true for everyone. Moreover,
         | biking forces external attention more regularly as you
         | encounter pedestrians and traffic at a higher rate
        
       | ProjectArcturis wrote:
       | That article had a ton of links, but I couldn't find any support
       | for the real factual claim that walking increases spontaneous
       | brain fluctuations. Would love to see that paper.
       | 
       | For the most part, spontaneous brain fluctuations are studied in
       | the context of fMRI. Since you can't walk in an fMRI, I'd like to
       | know how they actually measured anything.
        
         | superbaconman wrote:
         | Every movement our bodies make will show up in the brain in
         | some way or another. This study for example started breaking
         | down brain signal "noise" and basically found that the brain
         | and body are super tightly coupled. The feeling of the pants
         | against your legs and the wind in your hair is gonna show up in
         | a brain scan, so of course you're gonna see brain stimulation
         | while walking.
         | 
         | > When researchers studied the spontaneous activity of more
         | than 10,000 neurons in the visual cortex of mice, they were
         | surprised to find it to be rich with information about the
         | animals' seemingly irrelevant movements.
         | 
         | https://www.quantamagazine.org/noise-in-the-brains-vision-ar...
        
         | abandonliberty wrote:
         | I think the article/salon is optimized for clickbait. It's hard
         | to boil down the concept into a couple words.
         | 
         | Dr. Huberman mentions 'Optic flow', likely the same concept:
         | 
         | >When you move through space, whether walking, running, or
         | driving, you're in what's called optic flow. Things are moving
         | past your retina at varying speed, depending on how fast you're
         | moving, but your brain has knowledge of how fast you're moving.
         | It cancels out the movement in a way that says, okay, these
         | objects aren't moving past me. I'm moving past them. All of
         | this boils down to a set of circuits in the brain and body that
         | make it so that when we're moving through space, it has this
         | property of relaxing us and giving us a sensation that is
         | somewhat rewarding. And so what this translates to is at least
         | once a day, get out and move. Optic flow doesn't have to be
         | fast. It can be at slow speeds. Ideally, it's variable speeds,
         | but this, I believe, underlies the sensation, the both calming
         | and invigorating and kind of replenishing feelings that we get
         | from taking a bike ride or a long run or swimming, for that
         | matter.
         | 
         | https://findingmastery.net/andrew-huberman/
        
       | qez wrote:
       | > So while my students are out on their walks, they might be
       | mind-wandering more than in the classroom, but this is a good
       | thing
       | 
       | To be a bit flippant, isn't this obvious? Who thinks that mind-
       | wandering is a bad thing? Teachers, I guess. How is it possible
       | to be a philosopher without mind-wandering?
       | 
       | > In 2014, a new study showed that walking decreased rational and
       | linear thinking and increased divergent thinking and imaginative
       | mind-wandering
       | 
       | The only thing problematic here is the decrease in "rational"
       | thinking. I think in context it means something closer to rigid,
       | concentrated, and well-defined (ie - uninspired).
        
       | justinzollars wrote:
       | In college I took a lot more random walks. I'm going to try to
       | build those into my day.
        
       | afarrell wrote:
       | It would be nice if there was an app that a could let a bunch of
       | people tune in to an audio stream hosted by a phone within 30
       | meters. Then, a professor could lead walking lectures without
       | having to turn around and shout.
       | 
       | This would also be useful for city tours, outdoor dance parties,
       | and churches with hard-of-hearing parishoners.
        
         | Graffur wrote:
         | Is this an audio guide available at lots of museums?
        
         | api wrote:
         | Could be done with WiFi direct on phones that support it.
         | 
         | The fact that WiFi didn't originally ship with (and in many
         | cases still does not support) simple P2P with nearby devices is
         | just unbelievably stupid. Apple still insists on their own
         | stupid standard instead of the actual standard too, at least on
         | iOS devices. (I think Macs can be coaxed into the standard
         | mode, but Macs are real computers.)
        
           | webmaven wrote:
           | I am lookng forward to SDR-capable hardware falling in price
           | to the point that it becomes the default for most devices. At
           | that point, not only do wireless protocols become field-
           | upgradeable (including more exotic options like UWB), but
           | decentralized mesh-network protocols become installable as
           | well.
        
         | rahimnathwani wrote:
         | Why not a 'tour guide portable FM transmitter' (less than $100)
         | and a bunch of dollar store FM radios?
        
           | afarrell wrote:
           | Because few people already carry FM store radios in their
           | pocket, so relying on them requires solving a logistical
           | problem.
        
             | rahimnathwani wrote:
             | It will be more reliable than any solution based on either
             | (i) a battery-powered web server, or (ii) mobile internet.
             | 
             | And latency will be constant and near-zero.
             | 
             | I suspect that's why a couple of the use cases you
             | mentioned (city tours, dance parties) are usually addressed
             | with FM radio and not apps.
             | 
             | Perhaps there's a way to do this with a modern bluetooth
             | stack. But none of the offline messaging apps I've seen
             | (Bridgefy, Meshenger) support group audio.
        
             | athenot wrote:
             | True, but the FM solution could really be low latency,
             | unlike the digital rube goldberg machine equivalent.
        
           | tejtm wrote:
           | Some, many? most? cell phones have a builtin FM receiver so
           | in many cases no additional HW should be needed
           | 
           | [0] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cell+phone+FM+tuner
        
             | unwiredben wrote:
             | FM audio on yoru phone usually relied on the headphone
             | cable being used as an antenna to receive the FM signal.
             | With the demise of wired headphones, especially for high-
             | end phones, this is unlikely to be viable.
        
               | tejtm wrote:
               | that is insidious. Hopefully there is an alternative
               | dangling a charging cable or someone coming up with an
               | antenna case that can boost the signal. So far I'm good
               | with just not buying one like that.
        
         | bserge wrote:
         | Something like SoundSeeder (works via WiFi)
        
         | totetsu wrote:
         | I think this is planned for a future version of bluetooth.
        
         | pomian wrote:
         | Brilliant idea. We have thought of that before, when in a
         | museum, where you know there is so much more history and
         | information than just a label. Surprised no one had done it
         | yet.
        
           | OneTimePetes wrote:
           | Could we geocode the lecture-snippets, so the statements
           | persist at location? That way, one could advance at ones own
           | pace. Or map it to a route of ones own design, while keeping
           | the pace..
        
             | asoneth wrote:
             | I recall projects that did something like this. Besides
             | museums and historic neighborhoods, one memorable
             | application was at a graveyard. Reenactors read letters and
             | diary entries written by the deceased. The closer you were
             | to the writer's tombstone, the louder their audio. From far
             | away all you heard was a combination of barely audible
             | voices. I believe the relevant terms are "audio walks" or
             | "phonoscapes".
        
             | Lukas_Skywalker wrote:
             | I have created something similar for a museum. I placed
             | bluetooth beacons behind the exhibits, and when visitors
             | approached them the app automatically switched to the
             | "page" for this exhibit. The app was able to display texts,
             | videos, images and audio files.
        
           | Ericson2314 wrote:
           | A lot of tour buses catering to speakers of foreign languages
           | do exactly this.
        
           | cgb223 wrote:
           | Alcatraz almost has this!
           | 
           | Due to the pandemic they made an app where you can follow
           | along and listen to different parts of the tour
           | 
           | It's not very "smart" I.e. not location aware to start the
           | next prompt but honestly much better than those clunky audio
           | tour boxes
        
           | wil421 wrote:
           | The museum would lose revenue because you wouldn't have to
           | pay to rent their audio devices.
        
             | beaconstudios wrote:
             | You could pay for access to the audio stream just as well.
        
             | stemlord wrote:
             | I am a software dev for a company that builds museum
             | exhibits. Many museums these days have bespoke web or
             | downloadable apps that serve audio tours, sometimes
             | activated based on location through QR codes, computer
             | vision, beacons (iBeacons, Eddystone beacons), or RFID
             | scannable bracelets given to every visitor.
        
               | afarrell wrote:
               | Could you please pitch this app as a more scalably-
               | profitable revenue stream for your employer?
        
               | zinclozenge wrote:
               | Aruba Networks does this with their Meridian division.
        
               | stemlord wrote:
               | It's not really "an app". Every museum wants a different
               | MVP, and I just listed some of the common tech involved
               | in most of them. We don't have a turnkey product for
               | this, we build out a custom thing every time, because
               | clients come to us specifically for one-of-a-kind
               | technical implementations.
        
           | asoneth wrote:
           | Bloomberg Connects[1] is an attempt to do something like
           | this. An institution connects their CMS and then visitors can
           | access additional text, audio, video, images using triggers
           | in the museum space.
           | 
           | However, to my knowledge it does not support live synchronous
           | audio.
           | 
           | [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.bloombe
           | rg....
        
         | bigdict wrote:
         | Could be accomplished with BLE broadcasting.
        
           | soylentgraham wrote:
           | I've tried using bluetooth in a museum exhibition before and
           | noise from wifi and other equipment rendered it pretty
           | hopeless... but may have been the modules I was using...
           | 
           | Flawless at home/office. Useless on site
        
           | afarrell wrote:
           | This app indicates that existing Android and iPhones can
           | already act as receivers. Can you (or anyone more familiar
           | with the tech) verify that is true?
           | 
           | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27294649/i-want-ble-
           | broa...
        
             | bigdict wrote:
             | Receivers of BLE broadcast packets? Yes, that's how devices
             | are discovered. It's just that you can also stuff those
             | packets with a payload and transfer data (one way) without
             | a connection.
        
         | birbs wrote:
         | Couldn't you use Zoom for that?
        
           | xur17 wrote:
           | Zoom isn't really setup for something like this. Ideally you
           | want something that is one to many (broadcast), is low
           | latency (since the participants would be able to hear the
           | professor talking both in person and over the app), and is
           | reliable.
        
             | asdff wrote:
             | Conference call
        
               | xur17 wrote:
               | Latency on that would be even worse than a zoom call.
        
         | y4mi wrote:
         | So basically a mobile hotspot with a webrtc webpage on which
         | your headset microphone gets relayed? Participants can scan the
         | QR-Code to join the hotspot WLAN and get directly redirected to
         | the webrtc session
        
           | bilekas wrote:
           | This is actually a really good idea. The hotspot could just
           | locally serve the client and server side. Some pre connected
           | devices could be distributed also for the elderly or the
           | disabled.
           | 
           | Then you could package it with a "creation studio" to create
           | your own version for tourguides, museums, etc. Resell some
           | hardware also as per requirements. You've got yourself a nice
           | little business that seems useful for the business and
           | client.
        
           | afarrell wrote:
           | That sounds even better than what I was thinking of because
           | you wouldn't need people to download an app. Also, ESPN and
           | Sky could have a version of that which it could license to
           | broadcast the audio of a football game at bars or pubs
        
           | OJFord wrote:
           | Oh boy, if ever there was a time to invoke the Dropbox
           | comment!
           | 
           | Seriously though, I think it's an under-explored area.
           | Several years ago[^] I thought it could be a fun way to do an
           | ephemeral social networking type thing on the tube; then
           | something a bit similar ('YikYak'?) became briefly popular
           | (in the UK at least) but just using GPS or whatever for
           | location, still with a central server.
           | 
           | I think there's plenty of interesting things you could do
           | ephemerally, P2P over Bluetooth or mobile WLAN.
           | 
           | ([^] edit: that's not some weird claim to fame, I mean it in
           | the sense of I've long thought this should be good, but then,
           | I've not bothered to do anything about it, and neither it
           | seems has anybody else, so...)
        
         | mro_name wrote:
         | Kinda near-range walkie, nice. Bluetooth transmission should
         | do, shouldn't it?
        
         | pc86 wrote:
         | You just invented poorly implemented radio.
        
         | mathgeek wrote:
         | I imagine that a silent disco setup would provide this rather
         | well. Might need one with a better form factor for walking
         | outside, but the technology for broadcasting locally to
         | headsets has existed for a while now. Museums likely have these
         | deployed already.
        
           | afarrell wrote:
           | The trouble is that you need to distribute headsets to
           | people, hope they don't get broken, and then collect them
           | back. If there is both an android and iPhone app, then you
           | can let people use their own earbuds. You'd merely need to
           | tell people "open Soapbox and pick #gymnosperms. We'll set
           | out on the trail on 8 or so minutes"
        
             | Godel_unicode wrote:
             | > headsets to people, hope they don't get broken, and then
             | collect them back
             | 
             | Many museums do this already for their self-guided audio
             | tours, it's pretty old tech but it works super well.
        
             | wongarsu wrote:
             | And then you have to deal with people who don't have
             | earbuds with them.
             | 
             | Distributing headsets is a lot more reliable
        
               | dpcx wrote:
               | Until you think about people that have devices that don't
               | use headphone ports, or don't have bluetooth on their
               | phones (both, IIRC, are very small counts, but
               | potentially a problem). Not to mention if you're sharing
               | headsets that, unless they're all coming in plastic bags
               | suggesting that they're new from the factory, everyone
               | else's germs are all over them.
        
         | t0mbstone wrote:
         | We already have this. Just have the professor start a Zoom call
         | on their phone and have everyone else join it using their
         | phones while wearing headphones and their microphones muted.
        
         | atatatat wrote:
         | ...that's AM/FM etc radio.
        
           | jt2190 wrote:
           | Yes. I think I've even seen this implemented.
           | 
           | Certainly some drive-in theaters in North America worked like
           | this. There would be signs telling you to tune your car radio
           | to such-and-such frequency to hear the film audio. Here's a
           | picture of one: https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3186/2718300357
           | _ec1b9f3f45_z.j...
        
             | Ancapistani wrote:
             | These still exist :)
             | 
             | https://kendadrivein.com/faqs
        
           | sidpatil wrote:
           | Yeah, this is totally doable with walkie-talkies. The biggest
           | drawbacks I can identify would be audio quality and
           | interference.
        
             | Godel_unicode wrote:
             | Within a distance you can walk, it should be pretty easy to
             | find a band with minimum interference even in a crowded
             | metro. Also, quality won't be as much of an issue as range.
             | There are pretty low limits on how much power you can use
             | on the FM bands without a license.
             | 
             | Source: I drove all over a crowded metro in the early 2000s
             | with one of those fm transmitters for playing audiobooks to
             | my shitty car stereo. 3 station presets was enough for the
             | whole area.
        
         | douglaswlance wrote:
         | You could do a group call where everyone else is on mute.
        
       | mshaler wrote:
       | "Only ideas won by walking have any value."
       | 
       | -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
        
       | mercy_dude wrote:
       | Whenever I see an article like this in one of the most activist
       | so called news outlet, I can't stop myself asking - what is their
       | motive for pushing these? May be to increase residential real
       | estate pricing?
       | 
       | I mean sure, walking is good - I don't need salon to tell me it
       | is. But question rather is why are mainstream outlets like salon
       | rather pushing these narratives of benefits of walking lately?
       | The activism real estate these outlets have are valuable and
       | limited so the motives are always something I question.
        
         | afarrell wrote:
         | Because they want people to read things, view ads, and maybe
         | subscribe to their publication.
         | 
         | Its similar to the motive for mundane stories published in
         | magazines 30 years ago: so people read them in exchange for
         | money.
        
         | smileysteve wrote:
         | > May be to increase residential real estate pricing?
         | 
         | Only if the readers aren't paying attention. Research is also
         | simultaneously showing that urban citizens walk more than their
         | suburban counterparts.
        
           | bostonpete wrote:
           | I'm not really understanding the parent commenter's point,
           | but your comment seems like a non sequitur. How does
           | "residential real estate pricing" imply anything about urban
           | vs. suburban?
        
             | hkt wrote:
             | I would assume the person you're replying to is alluding to
             | higher costs and faster rises in urban areas (at least
             | historically, YMMV since covid)
        
         | bawolff wrote:
         | Are you really saying that salon is a front for big-real
         | estate?
        
           | Florin_Andrei wrote:
           | It must be the opposite to their own political dogma, so "it
           | must be evil".
        
         | asutekku wrote:
         | Because it generates clicks and clicks generates ad revenue.
         | 
         | A longer answe is that a healthy lifestyle is more and more
         | trendy and people want to know, why does walking help them also
         | mentally. This is as they want to find an easy answer to their
         | problems, such as stress. After reading the article, they will
         | then share the article with their social circle with a message
         | claiming "This is so true! After I started walking I started
         | feeling so much better", which generates more clicks, since the
         | other people want to get help too.
         | 
         | It's seriously not that complicated.
        
           | mercy_dude wrote:
           | I disagree it is just for click revenue. Outlets like salon
           | and NYTimes don't need to worry about click revenues, their
           | ad capital has been growing more than ever.
           | 
           | My cynicism comes from the same angle when I see every other
           | week some health benefits from drinking coffee coming out of
           | some studies pushed by the same outlets. Surely it has
           | nothing to do with a billion dollar industry funding and
           | pushing benefits of drinking coffee through these outlets
           | right.
        
       | jvanderbot wrote:
       | My mental model is that the brain has some kind of pseudorandom
       | idea generator. Like any pseudorandom generator, it needs a wide
       | array of inputs. I bet walking around provides all kinds of
       | muscular and sensory inputs, as well as increased blood flow and
       | engagement of most parts of the brain which is precisely what is
       | required for pseudorandom creativity.
        
         | 65 wrote:
         | Why would it be pseudorandom? If the brain is natural, wouldn't
         | it just be random?
        
           | bigdict wrote:
           | Randomness is an abstraction for "we don't know how it
           | works".
        
             | tompazourek wrote:
             | So... Random = Pseudorandom?
        
               | dagw wrote:
               | I mean, maybe. It's a rather philosophical question in
               | the end. Can there be true randomness in the universe or
               | is everything in some way deterministic, but it's just
               | that the underlying system is so complex that it can
               | never be computable. And is a deterministic, but
               | uncomputable, system actually deterministic?
        
               | ginko wrote:
               | FWIW, the hidden-variable theory, that the universe is
               | deterministic and we just lack all information to predict
               | it, has been considered and rejected by physicists.
               | 
               | https://www.askamathematician.com/2009/12/q-do-
               | physicists-re... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-
               | variable_theory
        
               | tompazourek wrote:
               | Reminded me of the "Free Will" thesis by Sam Harris.
        
         | matthoiland wrote:
         | If the entire nervous system contributes to cognition, then you
         | would assume that stimulating more of the body would stimulate
         | more cognition - or "pseudorandom ideas".
        
           | AQuantized wrote:
           | There's such a thing as overstimulation. There is probably an
           | optinal degree of stimulation to encourage cognition without
           | overloading it.
        
         | jvanderbot wrote:
         | This also explains why I need time off after hard, creative
         | work; or why vacation is so helpful. I need to repopulate
         | entropy.
        
       | Ozzie_osman wrote:
       | The three times I have my best ideas are: walking, showering, or
       | that state when I'm drifting between awake/asleep.
        
         | slothtrop wrote:
         | I also get ideas reading. Which, really, makes me a bad reader
         | because I get distracted.
        
         | mtgx wrote:
         | I think all of these might have to do with the brain's alpha
         | waves. You get into a "relaxed" mode where much of your brain
         | activity is suppressed, which I guess means your brain's
         | resources can be focused on the thing you need to solve most at
         | the time.
        
         | e40 wrote:
         | I agree with the first two, but for me the latter doesn't
         | produce much.
         | 
         | I will literally get a shower if I'm working on a hard problem
         | (and a walk is not convenient). So many times I solve the
         | problem, sometimes after having sat at the computer for hours
         | trying to solve it.
        
       | ralfn wrote:
       | Does any proof exists that humans think 'rationally' even when
       | they are solving essentially deductive puzzles?
       | 
       | Im not an expert about neurological stuff, but did anyone
       | discover any hardware in our brains that does something beyond
       | 'induction'?
       | 
       | Is this notion of divergent/converged thinking based on anything
       | objectively measurable? How do I make a machine that tells me if
       | a given thought is convergent or divergent? Or is this all just
       | cultural constructs similar to believe systems?
       | 
       | I'm especially tempted to be extra skeptical with anything that
       | attributes a particular metaphysical superiority to human
       | thinking over machines or animals. Is that skepsis an example of
       | convergent or divergent thinking?
       | 
       | I'm sorry if my question make an actual expert cringe. But
       | perhaps it can be an opportunity to enlighten simple minds like
       | me further...
        
         | mro_name wrote:
         | I doubt that humans, being the herd animals that they are, use
         | anything other than mere perceptibility (= volume and
         | repetition possibly weighted with the status of the speaker) to
         | reach consensus. As usual, 10% of the population are not quite
         | like that.
        
         | OneTimePetes wrote:
         | I think what we call rationality is the most likely (aka most
         | active path, when some cost timer in the brain runs out), one
         | can restart it and train it for long periods, but usually its
         | attention is fleeting, because attention is expensive and
         | should be on important things, like food, group, booty and
         | nothing.
        
         | Aerroon wrote:
         | This isn't the answer to your question, but perhaps an
         | additional point to consider.
         | 
         | One way humans are rational is when they "reason on paper". We
         | write down most of the initial conditions and then use an
         | algorithm (that's also written down) on them to get to the next
         | step. We write down the result we got. Then we use an algorithm
         | again on this result to get to the next step etc. This is how
         | mathematics and science works. Obviously this is cultural - we
         | learn to do this by learning to write, to do mathematics etc.
         | It's not something ingrained to us.
         | 
         | I think humans can do something similar in their head, but it
         | is _greatly limited_. The limiting factor is memory - an even
         | remotely complex algorithm will eat up all your memory and you
         | will forget about the results you had already got.
         | 
         | Eg adding 419875 + 87458284 uses the same algorithm as 356 +
         | 472. We can easily do both on paper, but the former is
         | difficult to do in your head, whereas the latter is fairly
         | easy. You give someone an external memory (eg notes) and they
         | both become easy again.
         | 
         | An external memory keeps our reasoning rational.
        
         | webmaven wrote:
         | I'll leave aside the question of deduction for the moment, but
         | it seems quite clear that induction isn't the whole story. At
         | the very least, we have to include abduction (ie. fuzzy pattern
         | matching, or leaping to conclusions) in our repertoire.
        
         | Jensson wrote:
         | The evidence is that a group of humans can extremely reliably
         | solve plenty of different classes of deductive puzzles, with
         | error margins as close to 0 as you can find in the universe.
         | Without that ability modern society wouldn't be possible.
        
           | webmaven wrote:
           | The question is whether deduction is implemented in hardware
           | or in software (that is: is it neurological or cultural).
        
         | krona wrote:
         | To make the case for irrationality, you must make the case
         | using truth, objectivity and reason, and therefore you're
         | implicitly committed to them.
        
         | karmakaze wrote:
         | I was pondering an extreme 'sudoku' with the fewest of possible
         | starting numbers: one. Then I realized you could solve it by
         | starting with any solved sudoku and shuffling columns, rows,
         | block-columns, and block-rows, in a manner similar to learning
         | how a Rubik's cube works. That turned it into a vastly simpler
         | deductive problem. I would say that this was creative but not
         | irrational.
        
           | Etheryte wrote:
           | Just a small side note, you can solve any such sudoku in the
           | same way you can fill a blank sudoku grid with a valid game
           | state. Take the first 3x3 square and fill it with consecutive
           | numbers 1,2, ..., 9. Then take the next 3x3 square and fill
           | it with 2, 3, ..., 9, 1. Do the same for each next square and
           | you'll end up with a valid board. To solve the one-number-
           | only sudoku you would then simply take the 3x3 square the
           | number is in, fill it with consecutive numbers around the
           | given number, and then fill the rest of the board similar to
           | the above.
        
             | karmakaze wrote:
             | Not much different. The advantage with using validity-
             | preserving operations is that you can follow-up with more
             | operations to satisfy additional constraints.
        
       | bob229 wrote:
       | Salon is garbage
        
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